Is your stuff just that bleeding edge? Or is Linspire's reputation not in fact well earned?
Linspire has a slow release cycle. You'll find that they have great compatibility with typically troublesome hardware like Win-modems but anything that requires the latest kernel causes a problem. For us it's some of the newest NVIDIA chipsets on motherboards. Ubuntu detects and works fine but Linspire can't even start.
When Linspire 6.0 is released it'll be the best of both worlds, but until then we just have to wait. You should remember Linspire aren't trying to make a cutting edge distro but a user friendly one. If your hardware is supported the user experience is great. If not you'll have to wait for the next version.
In return, among other things, Linspire will make Microsoft's search engine the default search on PCs shipped with their OS.
As someone who sells Linux,and only Linux, pre-installed on PCs and laptops across Europe I'm disappointed in this. My company is a Linspire reseller and system builder and we've been awaiting the new Linspire 6.0 for a few months now with baited breath. Linspire 5.0 doesn't work on most of our hardware so we're not selling it at the moment and news like this makes me want to drop it all together.
It'll be a cold day in h*ll before I ship a PC with Microsoft Search as the default.
--- http://www.xephi.co.uk/ for Linux without MS Search
Just to clarify things the nouveau project is trying to make an open source 2D and 3D alternative not just a 2D driver.
Does it really matter where the drivers come from? As long as the driver has the features I want, the stability I need and is open source I'll be happy. If I can get 2 out of 3 of those then that's pretty good and I'll be supporting efforts to make it a hat trick.
Hopefully the NVIDIA engineers will see the value of a community behind the nouveau project and find a way to contribute directly to that. If they can make contributions to the 3D side of things too then all the better. I think NVIDIA is one of those companies that is trying hard to work with Linux but the ecosystem surrounding it is not very easy for them to fit in with. You know what's funny is that I've never seen an interview that asks how the community can help NVIDIA or ATI. Things such as a stable ABI for loadable modules for instance might mean they can support more architectures.
If Linux is ever going to get serious in the mainstream market, nice easy to use tools are needed. We all love the command line but it's not useful for helping someone whilst on the phone. I've been lucky, most of the customer queries I deal with for pre-installed Linux generally fall into the category of not being able to find something and end with "Oh there it is, that makes sense". Another happy user. I think the only case I've ever had for something where software caused a major hardware problem was incompatible drivers for a RAID array. That was on Window's too where it was "supposed" to work.
I can also see this from Dell's point of view though. They will be doing everything they can to keep costs down on these models because Linux buyers assume Linux should be cheaper. I would have thought the CompleteCare package was a profit earner though and would be in Dell's interest to sell here. I can't wait to find out what's really going on because it sounds like someone has got a serious case of the FUDs and removed this option without a technical basis.
I'm no Microsoft fan but of all the Windows operating systems, I like the Mobile edition best.
If you knew me you'd realise that was almost high praise for an MS product. I've used a couple of earlier versions on mobile phones and found them to actually be stable and productive. I always tell people when I'm bashing MS that at least they can make a mobile OS.
Vista has driver issues that aren't present in XP MCE. Half of my dual-tuning Hauppauge PVR-500 stops working upon installation of Vista, at least until I remove Vista's bundled drivers and install the XP drivers that came with the card instead.
So what you're saying is that Windows can't compete on driver functionality with Linux anymore?
That gives me a nice warm fuzzy glow inside.;-)
I agree that there is some hardware out there that Linux doesn't run 100% on, but there is VERY little hardware that doesn't work at all.
Compare that to Apple who's software only runs on a very small set of hardware options, and Windows which has a lots of devices supported but the quality of those drivers is usually incredibly bad. By the way I don't think that is Microsoft's fault, but the hardware manufacturer. If they release open specs then it's Microsoft's fault.
I'd say Linux is the perfect choice for this, I can't think of another OS which would boot and provide at least a usable environment on such a wide range of hardware. The other OSes have some serious catching up to do if they're interested in being equivalent.
First of all the idea that Linux has bad support for hardware is an old myth that has been pretty much fixed in recent years. There are problem areas such as graphics and WiFi but Linux supports more hardware combinations than any other operating system. Graphics cards and WiFi just tend to be popular and give a bad impression.
Where Linux doesn't work 100% it does get pretty close and if you just want to stick your USB device in and get some work done it will almost certainly handle that. Assuming you can boot from USB, which I've noticed still causes problems in a lot of places.
I'm sure I saw an article the other day about how games are becoming more distributed and that is causing major problems with development. In particular ship dates are being missed and everything is being pushed back.
Considering how late Vista was and facing the same problems as the game designers, I don't see Vista+1 being released before we have to deal with the fact that PCs are going to be smarter than us anyway.
And let's not forget, once they are that smart they're going to finish Duke Nukem Forever for us first!
LOL
I'm with you in theory, the mistake you make is assuming you'll be able to bundle cores for licencing. We all know they're going to have 8 different versions of Windows and you'll need to buy a copy for EACH core!
I'm not sure I like the idea of swapping the smoked and burnt to the core taste for "wet paint". I'm mean, if you're going to bbq you might as well get that chargrilled flavour.
Why do yo think most of the ideas are not search related? I would have thought that if you live and breath search engines for 80% of your week, working on something else would probably be enjoyable but I'm sure you can't just switch it off like that.
People used to say that Yahoo and AltaVista did search really well. Then Google came along and changed the game. If an ex-employee of google figures out a way to cut out all the spam rubbish on the search results then I'm sure almost everyone would switch overnight. It's that risk of 1 truly great idea being missed that should worry google investors. Internet search users are a fickle bunch and I'm sure they'd switch without a second thought which in turn would hit google's paid for advertising hard.
Not everyone is subject to the same law stopping reverse engineering. All that is needed is for someone to crack the encryption somewhere it is legal then distribute it so that it is widespread. Then everyone in Europe at least can use it.
I'm sure there's something missing here and I doubt any of that would really work but we can dream can't we.
Dell can only sabotage Linux as an OEM option if they ship a poor quality product. Price is largely irrelevant since this isn't going to be offered to the mass market. I bet that announcement will be the end of their advertising campaign even.
The only people looking to buy this already know about Linux and whatever price Dell sells at wont change the view they have already been formed. For that matter a poor quality machine will probably make people just think that Dell can't get it right. I look forward to reading a review of one of these to see if Dell have actually taken the trouble to make Linux work well.
If you don't like what Dell is doing but still want a Linux supported laptop I suggest you check out the URL linked below my username. Unfortunately XePhi Computers (http://www.xephi.co.uk/), based in the U.K., only ships to Europe at the moment.
I used to be an avid Gentoo fan, so compiled everything, but for the last year or so I've only used Kubuntu, and I've only had to compile software I'm developing.
Nobody I've installed Linux for has complained about compiling, I doubt most of them even know of the concept. So it's really unfair to say that Linux can only be used if you can use a compiler. Almost all these people have no interest in computers and just get on with regular work at their PCs.
Interfaces can be little clumsy at times but there are plenty of interface designers involved these days and things are improving at an astounding rate. I've seen far worse interface design in Windows too.
It's true that Linux has a small market share because the average user doesn't want it. It's false logic to assume that's because the average user isn't catered for by Linux. When you can ask a random person on the street what Linux is, and get a reasonable response, then you can start to draw conclusions about what the users really want. The truth is they don't want it because the choice has never been offered and they have no idea it exists.
FYI, Linux is still a monolithic kernel. It has loadable module support but that just means it gets loaded into the monolith.
Re:But will they be cheaper?
on
Dell Linux Details
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Does anyone else think that offering only 3 models is a little underwhelming?
Only one laptop model? I can tell you it's because Dell's hardware just isn't compatible enough. Sure it's good enough to get by with Linux on it but they're not likely to stump up the costs for development of a laptop that is 100% compatible.
And for everyone who thinks they can just swap out components that don't behave well, I'm afraid I can tell you from person experience it's not that simple. You need to get the factory on board to make it happen and most of the time Linux compatible components aren't cheap. I'll take it all back if Dell start producing a line of laptops and desktops that work 100% with Linux.
My company has taken the time to create 4 specifically Linux OEM laptops, so we know how hard it is. When people say they expect it to be cheaper too it's just getting ridiculous. The hardware choices you need to make for really good compatibility just do cost more. WiFi is the best example, once you've changed from a generic card to an Intel card you've lost the saving you make by not paying a Windows Licence. And that's before you even have to start worrying about the right Intel chip! I can't wait to see these laptops, turn on the WiFi, 3D desktop and put it into suspend mode. Then when it wakes up we'll see how compatible these things really are.
I commend Dell for trying, but I think before everyone gets too excited we need to wait and see how much effort they actually put in.
Why would you expect Linux to be cheaper? Just because the licence is cheaper? There are many many other factors involved and realistically you should be concerned with good value for money. In terms of getting the most out of your hardware over the long term and not putting up with daily crashes, Linux can't be beaten.
Stop worrying about if it's more expensive than Windows. You get what you pay for and if you want quality you have to pay more.
I hate DRM, but that's only in its current form. DRM isn't intrinsically bad. Only when used to steal rights that would otherwise be afforded to the customer is it "wrong". In fact it should probably be illegal. Here in the U.K. it's still illegal (as far as I'm aware) to format shift. So having DRM that prevents that isn't "a bad thing" on it's own. We should change the law and ensure that DRM is used within the limits of that law. Format shifting is necessary in this day and age, should be legalised and DRM users should be made to respect that. The idea that media companies can suddenly decide what "rights" you're going to have based upon how much you pay them is insulting.
If anyone out there actually wants Chillout to take off then they should start looking for holes in it.... Then fix them!
I'm very cynical in general but since this already GPLed why are we being urged to pledge money. If it's for the graphics, models and hardware that was used to run the game then fine, if it's because the Free Ryzom project founder, Olivier Lejade, was the CEO of Nevrax (Ryzom's creator), then all this money will certainly help cushion his fall with all that bankruptcy and the creditors who are out for blood.
Disclaimer: I am completely uninformed as to the history and details of this project. The site is down too so I can't check all the facts. I hope someone can answer my questions and convince me to donate.
Slashdot Mirror
Or visit this UK website that is happy to take up the Linux niche that ACER would rather ignore.
https://www.xephi.co.uk/laptops/
Just because ACER says there's no demand doesn't make it true.
Linspire has a slow release cycle. You'll find that they have great compatibility with typically troublesome hardware like Win-modems but anything that requires the latest kernel causes a problem. For us it's some of the newest NVIDIA chipsets on motherboards. Ubuntu detects and works fine but Linspire can't even start.
When Linspire 6.0 is released it'll be the best of both worlds, but until then we just have to wait. You should remember Linspire aren't trying to make a cutting edge distro but a user friendly one. If your hardware is supported the user experience is great. If not you'll have to wait for the next version.
Not to mention that Canonical is based in Europe where Microsoft's patents are currently worthless.
As someone who sells Linux
It'll be a cold day in h*ll before I ship a PC with Microsoft Search as the default.
---
http://www.xephi.co.uk/ for Linux without MS Search
It's comments like these that make me wish I had mod points. So rarely is the humour on Slashdot so well executed and yet so subtle.
Bravo.
----
Get yourself a real Linux laptop: http://www.linuxnotebooks.co.uk/
Just to clarify things the nouveau project is trying to make an open source 2D and 3D alternative not just a 2D driver.
Does it really matter where the drivers come from? As long as the driver has the features I want, the stability I need and is open source I'll be happy. If I can get 2 out of 3 of those then that's pretty good and I'll be supporting efforts to make it a hat trick.
Hopefully the NVIDIA engineers will see the value of a community behind the nouveau project and find a way to contribute directly to that. If they can make contributions to the 3D side of things too then all the better. I think NVIDIA is one of those companies that is trying hard to work with Linux but the ecosystem surrounding it is not very easy for them to fit in with. You know what's funny is that I've never seen an interview that asks how the community can help NVIDIA or ATI. Things such as a stable ABI for loadable modules for instance might mean they can support more architectures.
-----
Want Linux preinstalled on a laptop with a compatibility guarantee? http://www.linuxnotebooks.co.uk/
If Linux is ever going to get serious in the mainstream market, nice easy to use tools are needed. We all love the command line but it's not useful for helping someone whilst on the phone. I've been lucky, most of the customer queries I deal with for pre-installed Linux generally fall into the category of not being able to find something and end with "Oh there it is, that makes sense". Another happy user. I think the only case I've ever had for something where software caused a major hardware problem was incompatible drivers for a RAID array. That was on Window's too where it was "supposed" to work.
I can also see this from Dell's point of view though. They will be doing everything they can to keep costs down on these models because Linux buyers assume Linux should be cheaper. I would have thought the CompleteCare package was a profit earner though and would be in Dell's interest to sell here. I can't wait to find out what's really going on because it sounds like someone has got a serious case of the FUDs and removed this option without a technical basis.
---
http://www.linuxnotebooks.co.uk/
I'm no Microsoft fan but of all the Windows operating systems, I like the Mobile edition best.
If you knew me you'd realise that was almost high praise for an MS product. I've used a couple of earlier versions on mobile phones and found them to actually be stable and productive. I always tell people when I'm bashing MS that at least they can make a mobile OS.
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http://www.linuxlaptops.eu/
Huh?
When I read the article is was very clearly talking about MythTV compared to Vista MCE. I don't think he tried Linux MCE at all.
Linux MCE is a very different animal and MythTV only forms a small part of it. http://linuxmce.com/ It's an amazing piece of software.
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http://www.linuxlaptops.eu/
So what you're saying is that Windows can't compete on driver functionality with Linux anymore?
That gives me a nice warm fuzzy glow inside.
--- http://www.linuxlaptops.eu/
I agree that there is some hardware out there that Linux doesn't run 100% on, but there is VERY little hardware that doesn't work at all.
Compare that to Apple who's software only runs on a very small set of hardware options, and Windows which has a lots of devices supported but the quality of those drivers is usually incredibly bad. By the way I don't think that is Microsoft's fault, but the hardware manufacturer. If they release open specs then it's Microsoft's fault.
I'd say Linux is the perfect choice for this, I can't think of another OS which would boot and provide at least a usable environment on such a wide range of hardware. The other OSes have some serious catching up to do if they're interested in being equivalent.
First of all the idea that Linux has bad support for hardware is an old myth that has been pretty much fixed in recent years. There are problem areas such as graphics and WiFi but Linux supports more hardware combinations than any other operating system. Graphics cards and WiFi just tend to be popular and give a bad impression.
Where Linux doesn't work 100% it does get pretty close and if you just want to stick your USB device in and get some work done it will almost certainly handle that. Assuming you can boot from USB, which I've noticed still causes problems in a lot of places.
---
http://www.linuxlaptops.eu/
Yep, just use Amarok.
That's why we sell our linux laptops with Kubuntu. The Gnome defaults just don't measure up.
---
http://www.linuxlaptops.eu/ Guaranteed Linux comapatbility
I'm sure I saw an article the other day about how games are becoming more distributed and that is causing major problems with development. In particular ship dates are being missed and everything is being pushed back.
Considering how late Vista was and facing the same problems as the game designers, I don't see Vista+1 being released before we have to deal with the fact that PCs are going to be smarter than us anyway.
And let's not forget, once they are that smart they're going to finish Duke Nukem Forever for us first!
LOL
I'm with you in theory, the mistake you make is assuming you'll be able to bundle cores for licencing. We all know they're going to have 8 different versions of Windows and you'll need to buy a copy for EACH core!
I'm not sure I like the idea of swapping the smoked and burnt to the core taste for "wet paint". I'm mean, if you're going to bbq you might as well get that chargrilled flavour.
Oh and the obligatory... Does it run Linux?
Why do yo think most of the ideas are not search related? I would have thought that if you live and breath search engines for 80% of your week, working on something else would probably be enjoyable but I'm sure you can't just switch it off like that.
People used to say that Yahoo and AltaVista did search really well. Then Google came along and changed the game. If an ex-employee of google figures out a way to cut out all the spam rubbish on the search results then I'm sure almost everyone would switch overnight. It's that risk of 1 truly great idea being missed that should worry google investors. Internet search users are a fickle bunch and I'm sure they'd switch without a second thought which in turn would hit google's paid for advertising hard.
Not everyone is subject to the same law stopping reverse engineering. All that is needed is for someone to crack the encryption somewhere it is legal then distribute it so that it is widespread. Then everyone in Europe at least can use it.
I'm sure there's something missing here and I doubt any of that would really work but we can dream can't we.
Dell can only sabotage Linux as an OEM option if they ship a poor quality product. Price is largely irrelevant since this isn't going to be offered to the mass market. I bet that announcement will be the end of their advertising campaign even.
The only people looking to buy this already know about Linux and whatever price Dell sells at wont change the view they have already been formed. For that matter a poor quality machine will probably make people just think that Dell can't get it right. I look forward to reading a review of one of these to see if Dell have actually taken the trouble to make Linux work well.
If you don't like what Dell is doing but still want a Linux supported laptop I suggest you check out the URL linked below my username. Unfortunately XePhi Computers (http://www.xephi.co.uk/), based in the U.K., only ships to Europe at the moment.
When was the last time you used Linux?
I used to be an avid Gentoo fan, so compiled everything, but for the last year or so I've only used Kubuntu, and I've only had to compile software I'm developing.
Nobody I've installed Linux for has complained about compiling, I doubt most of them even know of the concept. So it's really unfair to say that Linux can only be used if you can use a compiler. Almost all these people have no interest in computers and just get on with regular work at their PCs.
Interfaces can be little clumsy at times but there are plenty of interface designers involved these days and things are improving at an astounding rate. I've seen far worse interface design in Windows too.
It's true that Linux has a small market share because the average user doesn't want it. It's false logic to assume that's because the average user isn't catered for by Linux. When you can ask a random person on the street what Linux is, and get a reasonable response, then you can start to draw conclusions about what the users really want. The truth is they don't want it because the choice has never been offered and they have no idea it exists.
FYI, Linux is still a monolithic kernel. It has loadable module support but that just means it gets loaded into the monolith.
Does anyone else think that offering only 3 models is a little underwhelming?
Only one laptop model? I can tell you it's because Dell's hardware just isn't compatible enough. Sure it's good enough to get by with Linux on it but they're not likely to stump up the costs for development of a laptop that is 100% compatible.
And for everyone who thinks they can just swap out components that don't behave well, I'm afraid I can tell you from person experience it's not that simple. You need to get the factory on board to make it happen and most of the time Linux compatible components aren't cheap. I'll take it all back if Dell start producing a line of laptops and desktops that work 100% with Linux.
My company has taken the time to create 4 specifically Linux OEM laptops, so we know how hard it is. When people say they expect it to be cheaper too it's just getting ridiculous. The hardware choices you need to make for really good compatibility just do cost more. WiFi is the best example, once you've changed from a generic card to an Intel card you've lost the saving you make by not paying a Windows Licence. And that's before you even have to start worrying about the right Intel chip! I can't wait to see these laptops, turn on the WiFi, 3D desktop and put it into suspend mode. Then when it wakes up we'll see how compatible these things really are.
I commend Dell for trying, but I think before everyone gets too excited we need to wait and see how much effort they actually put in.
Why would you expect Linux to be cheaper? Just because the licence is cheaper? There are many many other factors involved and realistically you should be concerned with good value for money. In terms of getting the most out of your hardware over the long term and not putting up with daily crashes, Linux can't be beaten. Stop worrying about if it's more expensive than Windows. You get what you pay for and if you want quality you have to pay more.
I hate DRM, but that's only in its current form. DRM isn't intrinsically bad. Only when used to steal rights that would otherwise be afforded to the customer is it "wrong". In fact it should probably be illegal. Here in the U.K. it's still illegal (as far as I'm aware) to format shift. So having DRM that prevents that isn't "a bad thing" on it's own. We should change the law and ensure that DRM is used within the limits of that law. Format shifting is necessary in this day and age, should be legalised and DRM users should be made to respect that. The idea that media companies can suddenly decide what "rights" you're going to have based upon how much you pay them is insulting.
If anyone out there actually wants Chillout to take off then they should start looking for holes in it.... Then fix them!
Can someone confirm the accuracy of the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saga_of_Ryzom/ which states that the games engine is already licenced under the GPL?
I'm very cynical in general but since this already GPLed why are we being urged to pledge money. If it's for the graphics, models and hardware that was used to run the game then fine, if it's because the Free Ryzom project founder, Olivier Lejade, was the CEO of Nevrax (Ryzom's creator), then all this money will certainly help cushion his fall with all that bankruptcy and the creditors who are out for blood.
Disclaimer: I am completely uninformed as to the history and details of this project. The site is down too so I can't check all the facts. I hope someone can answer my questions and convince me to donate.