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Dell Thinks Ubuntu Makes Hardware More Fragile?
WolfWings writes "Apparently Dell has decided that Ubuntu-based computers are ineligible for their famed CompleteCare service, or any form of hardware warranty what-so-ever. The news has only recently hit Dell's own IdeaStorm website, via a forum post describing an interaction with the company's customer service. Says the customer, 'I am looking for protection from bricks. The laws of physics do not differ from one OS to the other...do they?' After so recently decided to support Linux on their machines, including limited technical support, Dell seems to be squandering any possible good-will with this decision to leave purchasers of these machines high and dry for hardware warranty coverage." Update: 06/05 23:40 GMT by KD : many readers let us know that Dell has said that the omission of extended warranty and CompleteCare options from the configurator for Ubuntu systems was an "ordering system glitch." It should be fixed by now according to DesktopLinux.com.
Windows has support for the Ageia PhysX card. Physics moves a little more smoothly and a brick will dent a Windows box in a more realistic manner than a Linux box. I hope that clears things up. ~Dell Customer Support.
What day is it? Could you please tell me?
Yes please check dmesg | grep ERROR. Try saying that to someone who doesnt know what a shell is.
Is there some diagnostic software that Dell uses that doesn't run on Ubuntu? If the magic blue smoke gets out of the CPU, that's easy to diagnose, but perhaps they're concerned about supporting more subtle hardware issues without diagnostic tools?
No, but it makes for a nice headline, eh? I think it more likely they believe their users will mis-identify software issues as hardware issues and request replacement hardware. Further, it would also cost them extra to have personell on hand (familiar enough with the OS) to help RESOLVE hardware issues. Either way, it costs them more.
It's not entirely unreasonable to charge more for a warranty coverage. It *IS* odd not to provide coverage at all, though.
But not because Dell denies that "The laws of physics do not differ from one OS to the other". That's just frustrated customer venting...
No, it serves the Linux community right...you can't spend all these years obsessing about your software, software, SOFTWARE.... and then be shocked when Dell falls in line with your obsession by also letting hardware warranties, ie, warrantees that deal with REALITY, slip a little in the rank of concerns. Look, you want hardware warranties back, worry a bit less about computer software that does this or that, and get with some hardware concerns, ie, getting out of your parents basement and move around in real space, get some girls, or even build a house (get your fill of hardware there)...then, just maybe, Dell might think it needs to worry about hardware (reality) warranties. Until then, settle for software (abstract) fulfillments only!
I am looking for protection from bricks.
In that case, you should buy double protection for Windows machines. I've seen Windows brick far more machines than Linux.
Of course, we all know who is really behind this aversion to protection from bricks.
*cue Simpsons-style song and dance*
The real issue is that Dell doesn't have any techs trained in Linux, and if you sent out a Tech with the average knowledge that the Windows techs have, the end user would probably be more knowledgable than the tech.
They really have no way to solve software issues, which makes it extremely difficult to determine whether an issue is a hardware or a software problem. So rather than retrain or recruit thousands of onsite techs, and pour millions of dollars into creating new Linux checklists for India, they would just assume offer only limited support.
Either:
1.) Dell does not have the tools or expertise in house to do this yet, but will in the future. So, they got pressured into releasing their Linux PCs before they were ready to support them. Incompetence maybe, but not malice.
2.) Dell simply put out Linux PCs to shut the geek crowd up and get them to buy Dells. However, they don't really want to support Linux, so they designed the program to fail. This way, when they cancel this offering in a year or two due to poor sales, they can say they tried, but Linux on the desktop just doesn't work.
I want to believe it's reason 1, but the added fact that Dell doesn't seem to be advertising this thing at all, and the fact that you actually have to jump through some hoops on the website to even see that the option is available, makes me think that reason 2 isn't entirely impossible either.
they are assuming that linux users might be more likely than most buyers to open up the box, swap cards, add drives/RAM, etc. In the process potentially exposing the machines to "user induced failures" from ESD, dropped screws, damaged parts, etc.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Dell asks us what we want. We tell them. They do it. Now we complain.
Admittedly, there are issues with not having any hardware warranty, but do we need to get so incendiary against someone who is trying to work with us?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
The rejoicing behind Dell's decision to provide machines preloaded with Ubuntu was the assumption that they will also provide software *and* hardware support. It doesn't matter whether everyone who buys a Dell laptop with Ubuntu on is a Linux power user or not, the point of buying Dell is that there's someone on the line if something goes wrong. These machines should have certified to work with Ubuntu, and the support people should be able to resolve common problems, whether hardware or software. What makes matters worse is that Dell continues to promote that expectation in order to take a couple of hundred dollars of a purchaser for hardware cover. One of the reasons to buy a well known name is that, to put it bluntly, a lot of people want someone to shout at if something goes wrong. It seems that there's going to be a lot of shouting if there's no useful response.
But almost EVERY computer component I've seen carries at least a 1 year warrantee. If they use Seagate drives (not sure) they have a 5 year warantee. So it's not like they're completely out in the cold. But agree it is more of a nuisance to ship 10 diff pieces to 10 diff people than just sending the puter back to Dell.
This reminds me of an issue I recently had with my ISP... Packet loss @ 12% so I call the provider...
... Sorry I meant Charlie in India that his MCSE studies are worthless and they now need to retrain him in Linux... Man that would earn developers a whopping .10 (US) more thus offsetting dull's stock prices a whopping .001 per share. Not in Dull's best interest.
Cust svce. Can you reboot, etc., etc., etc.
Me... Sure why not... yadda yadda
Cust svce. Can you click on the start menu
Me No. I don't use Windows
Cust svce. Please hold...
Cust svce. Are you using OSX?
Me No. I use Solaris (Sun Desktop on a Dull unInspiron 6000)
Cust svce. Please hold...
Cust svce. (supervisor gets on now) Can you please click on the start menu...
Me No. I told the other person I use Solaris...
Cust svce. Well we don't support Solaris!
Solaris nor OSX nor Windows nor BSD had anything to do with their cruddy connectivity. The actual conversation took a little longer than that with more e-stupidity from their customer service and I had to pretty much deal with it to a degree... My options? 1) Find a provider who would support/understand basic networking, etc. 2) Deal with it...
This is what happened summarily, so I can see why dull would become filled with uber non Windows FUD. Imagine having to explain to Alibaba
Infiltrated dot Net
The guy was buying a laptop. From experience trying to repair units in the past, there's little in the way of
things to swap out on one of these things. Some of the higher-end laptops might have interchangeable GPU cards
but typically, only the CPU (which is NOT recommended for the average user on a laptop- lots of screws and you
have to tear the silly thing totally apart in most cases...), the RAM (which is user serviceable anyhow...), the
HD (ditto...), and the CD or DVD drive (which is often user serviceable too...).
There's really nothing in there to futz with. Everything "upgradeable" is either USB, PCMCIA, or ExpressCard.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Some people are contending that the lack of warranty is due to the lack of Ubuntu tools Dell is willing or able to use, however there could be an even bigger motivation behind their choice. Most hardware is sold at or near cost these days with the majority of the profit being due to add-ons and software. Because the Ubuntu boxes generally have far fewer add-ons there is less purchasing power so I can understand Dell wanting to do less in general. One must realize it would require a lot more training and probably a couple brand new company branches in general for a very small share of the market
I could also see a company like MS being fairly raw about something like this and denying Dell their discount if they decide to give a warranty. This would deny most corporate clients the ability to go the Ubuntu route.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
There's few Linux support specialists compared to Windows. Hiring enough Linux support staff for a relatively low price will be hard.
Linux and Unix professionals often earn more.
Why doesn't dell just put a bootable diagnostic utility in a small partition on the disk? Seems like a no brainer :)
This wouldn't be the first time we've seen a phone rep make an incorrect statement about hardware support/warranty when Linux is installed.
For those not going to read the attached article (or who didn't the first time around), in the end the phone rep was mistaken and misunderstood the policy and HP handled the hardware repair under warranty.
I'm sure 3/4 of there returns for "damaged hardware" are in fact software issues. People would be returning the machines when they failed to install Office.
But in this case, probably rightly so. When I bought my E520N on opening day, it said I had a warranty, so I'd expect them to honor it.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
Having no hardware warranty is different from having no hardware support.
I would understand completely if Dell did not have staff trained to diagnose hardware failures on Linux. That is support. But if my keyboard doesn't work, and another keyboard does, Dell should accept an RMA on the keyboard. That's a warranty. I picked that example because it is easy, but it applies to anything. If I determine the hard drive is bad, or I take it to a store and they conclude that, then Dell should allow me to RMA the hardware.
My guess is that in some states, they have to do this, like it or not, but probably for only 30 days or so. (Warranties of merchantability and fitness, lemon laws, etc.)
Linux users are bitches. No wonder you get no respect.
Not providing a hardware warranty that's purchasable otherwise, just because a specific OS is installed
is most decidedly **NOT** working with us, thank you, very much.
I could have bought the same laptop he was buying but with Vista instead and burned the install down and been offered the option to buy
the hardware warranty- and it wouldn't have voided it upon my act. It's someone's bright idea over there at Dell because they probably
don't have the same testing/burn-in line for the Ubuntu laptops so they're not standing behind them as well as the Vista ones. It's
rubbish and they know it- and so should you.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
4.) The search for the guilty.
See, in a corporate world, Windows servers and Windows workstations are used for one simple reason. When something goes wrong, they know who to take to court. They know who to blame. They know who to call on the phone at 3 AM and work all night trying to solve a critical server process that likes to eat memory or crash.
Now, seeing as how applications exist that can modify hardware (read: brick it) then something tells me that Dell isn't going to warantee a mainboard when they can't call up and say "Hey, that patch you released bricked our onboard sound chip / video / lan / cdrom firmware."
For those of you interested, the 6 stages of every project are as follows:
1.) Enthusiasm.
2.) Disillusionment.
3.) Panic.
4.) The Search For The Guilty.
5.) The Punishment of the Innocent.
6.) Accolades for the Non-Participants.
Windows has more viruses because linux has more virus coders.
My friend had a linux server at a building that was being demolished, however, he had problems arranging transportation of the server. One month after the house was going to be demolished, the server was still there, and still worked just fine. If linux can resist falling buildings, why would you worry about falling bricks?
Hello, cust support, my PC won't turn on and the capacitors on the motherboard are all blown...
- What OS are you running
Linux...
- We're sorry, we don't support that OS
But I don't want OS support, I'm sure the OS would work fine if they hardware was functional...
-
Used to work in an all Dell shop, and had caps blow on almost every motherboard in two different optiplex series, and now they're saying they won't offer hardware support / warranty because of OS????
_______________
If it's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your two cents in, what happens to the other penny? Somebody's making a penny - Stephen Wright
Dell is still honoring whatever warranty you bought. They stopped offereing EXTENDED warranties including Complete Care. So what? They probably removed it due to lack of demand. Geeks don't pay for warranties anyway, do they? Why train and staff an Ubuntu tech support queue for the three people who bought an extended ubuntu warranty? Not exactly a sound financial decision. Man this is people getting really worked up for a one liner on idea storm. Wow.
Ubuntu may not make your hardware break; however, Dell is worried that Linux support may break their profit margins. This doesn't even take into account efforts in development and training of staff.
If the program succeeds, they break even. If it fails then they aren't stuck with supporting it for any longer than necessary.
- repeatedly failing to provide timely onsite repair to consumers who purchased service contracts promising "onsite" and expedited service;
- pressuring consumers, including those who purchased service contracts promising "onsite" repair, to remove the external cover of their computer and remove, reinstall, and manipulate hardware components;
- discouraging consumers from seeking technical support; those who called Dell's toll free number were subjected to long wait times, repeated transfers, and frequent disconnections;
- using defective "refurbished" parts or computers to repair or replace consumers' equipment.
sourceTwo obvious observations [assuming the lawsuit's accurate]:
that someone buying a dell with linux has much more chance of spilling coffee on the hard-drive than a regular folk
I think it also has to do with their call support system. Once I broke my laptop screen, it was really broken with pixels leaking everywhere... yet, when I called they made me jump through a lot of hoops to make sure I didn't mess my windows settings... I played along pretending to click. Halas, I guess the procedure makes sense for most of the callers.
\u262D = \u5350
I doubt if I could get support on my recently purchased Dell desktop. When I got it, I flattened the disc and did a clean install of Vista. No Dell tools, no "crapware". No security issues associated with said "crapware". I got it at a good price, so I am happy. My kids, who use it are happy with it, but they certainly wish I weren't so strict with the parental controls and blacklist.
There's far more people running Windows than Linux, and while it's conceivable that a higher percentage of Linux users will tinker, the sheer numbers of Windows users dwarfs that.
Besides, one could argue that Linux users are more likely to understand ESD and the like, and take proper precautions than some of the unwashed masses of Windows users.
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
true, i believe OEMs tend to buy hardware in mass quantities from the lowest bidder in order to help keep costs down and profits up, and cheap hardware is always the very least sub-par...
I think in Europe there is a law forcing companies to at least give a 2 years warranty on electronic consumer products. Anyone better informed?
Elen sìla lùmenn' omentielvo
To be fair, there's a limit to what regular customer support can do in any country: they probably follow scripts (there's an ISP support system that works in exactly that way - I can't remember the name but a lot of ISPs use it) and won't do anything off the track. However, once upon a time there was such a thing as second line support, who would be able to analyse your packet loss problems (to an extent - obviously if it was on the inside of your router it would either be your problem or best endeavours, and I think generally a)). However, even those people have been offshored or globalised in recent years, and might be in Bratislava or Singapore, to think of a couple of places off the top of my head *coughAT&Tcough* and might not have the skills to trace down your problem. The size of the industry now means that power users don't get supported, to the benefit of those who have just been to Best Buy and can't get their Internets to work.
Since people in Digg started posting "news" which are pure speculation adding a question mark to the title it seems it has infected slashdot as a plague... for the love of whatever you like, not only it does not looks professional it is wrong and even the grammar is terrible:
Does Dell Think Ubuntu makes hardware more fragile?
That goes into ask slashdot... not as a piece of speculation FUD...
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
are still offered with extended warranties and complete care? How are these different from the Ubuntu PCs??
At least their offering it. I'm working hardware warranty support for dell right now and I'm sitting in the office. We get a TON of calls from people who want coverage for software issues that have absolutely nothing to do with the hardware and they get really really mad when you tell them that, they get especially mad if they pay for extra hardware support and we don't help them with software. It's going to take awhile to pull a few thousand agents off the phones for a couple of months and teach us linux enough that when the calls come in we aren't going to just tell them that it's not supported since we do try and help them out with software issues whenever we can. I know I've ended up getting stuck on calls for 1+ hour showing people who to use MS office etc or helping them out with iTunes. I seriously doubt that it has anything at all to do with the hardware in any way and alot more to do with the logistics of updating a massive amount of agents for a completely foreign OS which most of us have never used before.
Sure, we'll let you run Linux, but it's as-is and there's no warranty. If you want support you need to buy Redmond's code. Sorry. Go pimp your ride somewhere else.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Why would somebody want a Dell with Linux pre-installed? Why not just a box with a blank hard drive, i.e. no Microshaft tax? Are the Linux zealots just trying to legitimize the penguin by saying "Dell sells Linux PCs"? What average person is going to buy one of these when he doesn't even know what a shell prompt is? How is software going to void a hardware warranty? Short of re-flashing and fucking up the BIOS, you can't break the hardware with the software. This is all incredibly stupid.
I work at a university. Everyone in my group was issued Dell D600 laptops. 1/2 the group installed linux or freebsd while the other half left windows installed. After a year, the linux group had run through several motherboards and giant piles of batteries. Two years later, another pile of motherboards (from the linux people) but still no hard failures from the windows people.
My guess is that the thermal properties of these things is such that they can (and will) cook themselves if they are run without the power management stuff working exactly correctly. This isn't an issue with windows but I can tell you that my dell D600 (now a D620 after having the motherboard, memory, and CPU replaced 5 or 6 times they gave up and offered to replace the whole thing, of course I was without a laptop for 10 of the last 12 months *prior* to that) runs much hotter under linux than under windows.
So, I can totally understand their point. Probably their PCs run similarly close to the edge of functioning reliably. Anything less and they're leaving money on the table.
Whenever they ask you to run the diagnostic tests, always lie to them and tell them about the first screen where you launched the diags, but no more. Always say they the machine appears to have started the diags but is now hung and not responding and that only a power-cycle will get it back to the start of the tests again. Lather, rinse, repeat. The goal is to waste as much of their time as possible and make them cave into sending you replacement hardware.
I'd buy that, only I have a 12 year old tyan tomcat dual cpu motherboard that has been running linux for 12 years, and I have only had to replace the fans. It makes a great firewall!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
This is like my third post ever on slashdot. I read it often, though. I am the guy with the brick quote. Here is the whole story to be fair to Dell. On Friday, my laptop died. It was an Acer. The screen was damaged. Replacement cost of cracked screen is more than halfway to the cost of a new laptop. So I decide I will support the new Ubuntu Dell Laptops. I go online to Dell's Website and go to the Ubuntu page. I choose the E1505n. I upgrade to a GB of Ram, I get the Nvidia 256 MB graphics card, I get the DVD burner optical drive. So far so good. I am happy with the default processor and the screen. Now, another driving factor is that Dell has the nifty cool complete care (tm) plan. With this bad boy, a random brick can fly through the air, hit my laptop, shatter it to threads, and Dell will cover it. Think of it more as an insurance plan than a service plan. I have a friend with 3 kids who has had to take advantage of it not once, but twice. Both times Dell took care of them no questions asked. Now, the first time the Dell laptop had XP on it...the second time..gentoo. Still, no problems here. So, I decide to get it....just in case I get burned twice. On June 2, I get an email telling me my order has been acknowledged and I will get another email shortly giving me a order number (I also paid for next day shipping). Well, the rest of June 2 and all of June 3 goes by. No new email. I check my spam folder...nada...just the usual assortment of male enhancement and refi deals. So on June 4 I call Dell. They can see no order...they can see they debited my account...but no order. Hmmm...confusing. Very sorry, sir. Let me talk to my supervisor, please hold. She has no explanation for the lost order, but she will reprocess the order and I will get my next day shipping for free since I lost time. YAY! But wait! When we "build" my Dell, there is no longer a Complete Care (tm) plan for Ubuntu. She puts me on hold. She find out that my order was bumped out since they changed the policy on offering Complete Care (tm) on Ubuntu Dells. Why? She puts me on hold. Now comes the fun. "Sir, Ubuntu is a third party software and applications come from sources not from Dell." "Vista is a product of Dell?" "No sir, but we have a relationship with MS." "So you do not have a relationship with Canonical, the commercial company that sponsors Ubuntu?" "Hold.........Yes we do, but the software for other things comes from third parties." "So what if I buy a game for a Vista laptop from Best Buy? As that is a third party software..does that invalidate a Complete Care (tm) policy?" "No, sir." "What if I download an update from Microsoft to keep my Vista Current, how does that differ from an update from Ubuntu other than the fact the Ubuntu update actually helps my system?" "I do not know sir. See, sir, Linux comes from all over the place and as such cannot be supported." "I believe Redhat and even Microsoft differ with that opinion. I am not looking for support, that is another option I can click on another screen in your website. I am looking for protection from bricks. The laws of physics do not differ from one OS to the other...do they?" "No Sir." "Talking to your superior will not help my cause, do you have the phone number and email address of an executive do you?" She gave it to me. I wrote an email. I expressed my concerns politely and professionally. The next day-early this morning, I got a reply from a Dell Representative named Todd. Todd wrote,"Mr. Green, Thank you for your note and a chance to solve this issue. I am about to get on an airplane, but will get your issue to our executive resolution team. They should be able to resolve. If you are not satisfied, please do not hesitate to contact me again. Thank you for your business. Todd XXXXX" I will be honest, I thought it was a passing of the hot potato. However, earlier this morning I received a phone call from an executive in the resolution team by the name of Diane. She was very professional. She said she was unaware of the policy change. She discussed the
Hey! Where is the haha tag?
Gee its funny how it almost seems a certain large proprietary software company trolls slashdot now, looking to lash out at anything open source. Thats unrelated tho.
Dells hardware has always been shit. I see more dead dells than i do dead e-machines these days. Dell is just using the "run unsupported software and we give you no hardware warranty" to make up for all those dead parts they would have had to replace otherwise and the hundreds of telephone hours (per support ticket cause they love to give the runaround).
This is just plain dumb. The ONLY time I have EVER heard of Linux harming hardware in any way was a kernel bug a long time ago that would accidentally kill USB thumbdrives by working them constantly.
If there's anyone I hate more than stupid people, it's intellectuals.
My brother (a semi-techie) got pissed off at Vista and XP, so he installed Ubuntu 7.04 on his nice new-ish ThinkPad.
He suspended to ram (via the Shutdown menu) and put the notebook in his backpack. A few hours later he pulled it out and found that while the ThinkPad was still (theoretically) in Suspend mode, it was *hot*.
This problem never happened to him with XP or Vista. Only Linux. And baking a laptop does have an effect on the cost of warranting it. So as much as I hate to admit it, there is at least sometimes a connection between OS choice and hardware maintenance / repair costs.
(One might argue that Dell could get this problem addressed. And they probably can - eventually. But it exists now.)
That is stupid. Power management in Linux works just fine (admittedly, it takes some effort to configure, sometimes). If Dell is selling Linux pre-loaded on their hardware, then Dell should be selling the system with correct power management settings turned on by default.
I saw such a notice on another company's web page:
"Using Fedora Linux on the Desknote B532 laptop (local tradename for ECS-532) will cause mainboard failure. That is not covered by the warranty."
I was also mildly interested when Dell initially talked about selling Gnu/Linux pre-installed. But I had to admit that my interest was not based entirely on logic. It interested me because it seemed like Dells interest somehow validated the ascendance of the Linux desktop into the mainstream. (I do sometimes ask myself, though, is that necessarily such a great thing?) However, why reward some half-hearted newcomer, Dell, when there are vendors, such as System76 (http://system76.com) that sell excellent quality highly configurable systems with guarenteed harware compatability right out of the box, and with not only tech support, but robust knowedge base and forum support? Why reward the inferior? My next purchase will not be some newbee like Dell, but rather from one of the vendors who were there from the start, like companies from this list: http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/laptop.html.
Maybe hardware problems are more expensive when customers are using Linux.
When a Windows computer stops working it is obvious to assume it is a SW
problem.
When my Windows computer at work died I told the computer support I
suspected a HW problem, but they insisted on reinstalling Windows three
times before they could think the thought that the problem was not
Windows related. (I use my computer almost all the time but I had to do
without it for eight working days until they fixed the HW problem.)
Everyone knows Windows is broken and that it is a pain to try to fix
things. So when your Windows computer starts to annoy you it is best
to forget about it. Maybe people running Linux expect computers to work.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of Dell's machines, esp. laptops, are sold w/Complete Care. I know when I bought a Dell laptop for my son to take to college, I wouldn't have considered NOT getting the coverage.
...and Linux users throw more bricks.
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
He said in his post that he was relatively new. He probably did white-space the post, but not using html breaks.
There is no guarantee that the brick will be supported under Linux. Unsupported bricks will fall and damage the Windows box, as outlined by the parent post. Furthermore, the brick is about the same size as a herring, if you scale Tux to the size of a real penguin. This may cause Linux indigestion.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
No matter what a manufacturer says, the hardware MUST be fit for it's intended purpose! What this means is the computer must last as long as any other normal computer. If it does not, they must either fix it or replace it. This is called an "implied warrenty" (and I know I didn't spell that correctly). I bought a computer from Fry's with a one month in store warrenty and a one year manufacturer's warrenty. The box died after 17 months. I asked Fry's to fix it and they said no. I asked for my money back and they said no. I filed in small claims court and Fry's returned all my money an hour after they received the summons and talked to their attorney. This is true in all 50 states and applies to any product that is not tagged "Sold as is".
So far in my 3 years of working with dell as an admin working on various machines and servers, especially within the home domain. They believe in the pluck and chuck philosophy. One time a pc had a failing video card and was generateing a very specific video card error. they sent us ram, mobo etc etc, and instead of sending the vid card like the admin told them .... they ask us to ship the whole pc!?
I disagree with the pulling of linux support, its HARDWARE. If you cant run
windows diagnostics, why not include a bootdisk with the diagnostics you need?
Salvation hdd diagnostics, memtest, etc etc all bootable from the bios / prompt.
I fail to see how that has any bearing since not ONCE have they asked me to refer
to the dell diagnostics. I tell them whats fried they send me a new one. It should not
matter if its linux or windows. Fried hardware is fried hardware.
"After much research, I determined that the Ubuntu versions are not available to higher ed customers for several reasons. As new units, we are not yet able to determine if Canonical can provide the support. Plus, there are production concerns. They are only available to U.S. consumers which means that you would not be able to purchase through the [sic] tax exempt customer number."
So he offered me a quote for the FreeDOS version instead...
www.itjerk.com
1. Lack of diagnostics. Train your support crew to use two different sets of diag tools costs money.
2. Yes, linux drivers can crash hardware. I crashed my nikon film scanner using a beta SANE driver. Read the warning; chose to ignore it, drove the scan head off the end of the screw. $2000 broken toy. This was a few years ago, so may not be true anymore.
3. Dell would prefer to be seen as more friendly towards windows. If they say, in effect, "We support PCs with windows. We'll sell you a PC and even preload a GNU distro, but that's strictly your responsibility", they're keeping a major supplier happy.
Hey, they're good *business* reasons.
They may not coincide with your personal ideology, but why should they?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
My guess at the whitespace (nothing has been modified except whitespace):
This is like my third post ever on slashdot. I read it often, though. I am the guy with the brick quote. Here is the whole story to be fair to Dell.
On Friday, my laptop died. It was an Acer. The screen was damaged. Replacement cost of cracked screen is more than halfway to the cost of a new laptop. So I decide I will support the new Ubuntu Dell Laptops. I go online to Dell's Website and go to the Ubuntu page. I choose the E1505n. I upgrade to a GB of Ram, I get the Nvidia 256 MB graphics card, I get the DVD burner optical drive. So far so good. I am happy with the default processor and the screen.
Now, another driving factor is that Dell has the nifty cool complete care (tm) plan. With this bad boy, a random brick can fly through the air, hit my laptop, shatter it to threads, and Dell will cover it. Think of it more as an insurance plan than a service plan. I have a friend with 3 kids who has had to take advantage of it not once, but twice. Both times Dell took care of them no questions asked. Now, the first time the Dell laptop had XP on it...the second time..gentoo. Still, no problems here. So, I decide to get it....just in case I get burned twice.
On June 2, I get an email telling me my order has been acknowledged and I will get another email shortly giving me a order number (I also paid for next day shipping). Well, the rest of June 2 and all of June 3 goes by. No new email. I check my spam folder...nada...just the usual assortment of male enhancement and refi deals.
So on June 4 I call Dell. They can see no order...they can see they debited my account...but no order. Hmmm...confusing. Very sorry, sir. Let me talk to my supervisor, please hold. She has no explanation for the lost order, but she will reprocess the order and I will get my next day shipping for free since I lost time. YAY! But wait! When we "build" my Dell, there is no longer a Complete Care (tm) plan for Ubuntu. She puts me on hold. She find out that my order was bumped out since they changed the policy on offering Complete Care (tm) on Ubuntu Dells. Why? She puts me on hold.
Now comes the fun.
"Sir, Ubuntu is a third party software and applications come from sources not from Dell."
"Vista is a product of Dell?"
"No sir, but we have a relationship with MS."
"So you do not have a relationship with Canonical, the commercial company that sponsors Ubuntu?"
"Hold.........Yes we do, but the software for other things comes from third parties."
"So what if I buy a game for a Vista laptop from Best Buy? As that is a third party software..does that invalidate a Complete Care (tm) policy?"
"No, sir."
"What if I download an update from Microsoft to keep my Vista Current, how does that differ from an update from Ubuntu other than the fact the Ubuntu update actually helps my system?"
"I do not know sir. See, sir, Linux comes from all over the place and as such cannot be supported."
"I believe Redhat and even Microsoft differ with that opinion. I am not looking for support, that is another option I can click on another screen in your website. I am looking for protection from bricks. The laws of physics do not differ from one OS to the other...do they?"
"No Sir."
"Talking to your superior will not help my cause, do you have the phone number and email address of an executive do you?"
She gave it to me. I wrote an email. I expressed my concerns politely and professionally.
The next day-early this morning, I got a reply from a Dell Representative named Todd. Todd wrote,
"Mr. Green, Thank you for your note and a chance to solve this issue. I am about to get on an airplane, but will get your issue to our executive resolution team. They should be able to resolve. If you are not satisfied, please do not hesitate to contact me again. Thank you for your business. Todd XXXXX"
I will be honest, I thought it was a passing of the hot potato.
However, earlier this m
I had this kind of problem at Autozone - I had a dead battery, shorted cell or something. The guy came out with the special idiot meter, it looks like a ruggedised, wicked Fluke meter but it's really more like one of those digital windshield wiper catologs. He hooks it up and says my battery is fine, the car cranks like a champ and he says my alternator is fine too. When I shut down the car (the lights were still on from the 'test') and I assured him the battery was dead and finally he says, "well it's not covered under warranty". I knew the battery was dead so I say I need one anyways, then I get aggravated and say, "you know what though, I'll be getting one from across the street instead" and I get in the car and it won't crank. After that they replaced it under warranty.
I agree.
The laws of physics do not differ from one OS to the other...do they?
Apparently, Scotty couldn't change the laws of physics but Ubuntu can![signature]
Hi
Actually I work for Canonical full time at their global support centre. I also happen to volunteer in the forums and I saw this post in several places. I forwarded it internally to Canonical Staff and it's been passed to Dell.
Cheers,
Fabian Rodriguez
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez
Notepad specialist & FAT administrator, group training available
Tech support can be solved with a few more scripts - you know...
On Tech Support Screen
Rep: Does it say one or two?
If customer says one, press [here]. If two, press [here].
Ugh.
I bought a new system a few months back, so my 5 year old Athlon XP that has worked great(except for some bad ram) was going to be revitalized as a Linux server. I installed ubuntu and things worked great, for 5 minnutes.
After 5-30 minutes of usage, I get verical lines & junk on the screen and the system stops responding. All I can do is move the mouse pointer around and nothing else. I can't fall out of Xwindows, nothing. I have to hard-reset it. It's an okay GeForce card.
I'm going to do a video card swap with my even older system. It seems any time I depreciate a system and install Linux on it, hardware goes on the fritz where it was otherwise fine in Windows land. Perhaps it's just bad luck. Perhaps I should be thankful with Ubuntu that sound worked right off the bat without me studying drivers and such. Heck, I even got the buggy shoucast server & client to work!
If you have a real hardware issue, pray it's one that's system-critical, such as a CPU dying or a video card not functioning. This way, when you call and say you need [x] replaced, and they ask "what OS are you using?" you say "I don't know, how can I find out if my computer doesn't come up?" Because, you never know...maybe the next time you reboot it might say Windows. :D
I used to work for HP/Compaq laptop repair. Many systems for warranty repair came in with the HDD removed - presumably for security reasons. In any case we always tested the unit with our own test drives. Bottom line HP/Compaq didn't care what OS you ran.
Semper ubi sub ubi
A couple of years ago I had an Dell Latitude laptop with a faulty hard drive. After about 3 weeks it would freeze and be totally inaccessible even by the BIOS until it randomly decided to start working again (fortunately long enough for me to get the data off). When I had reinstalled WinXP the 2nd time, I decided enough was enough and called Dell Technical Support where I was put through to one of their Indian call centres. After explaining the hard disk was faulty, I was told that they wouldn't be able to replace the drive unless the diagnostics partition showed an error on the drive. But of course, at the time the drive was frozen up and wouldn't show up in the diagnostic utility. When I explained this, I was categorically told they would not replace the drive until it failed the test.
:)
After nearly 45 mins of arguing I suggested that we try it one more time... and this time I reported back that the drive was visible and had started to run the diagnostic. After a pause of 30s when the diagnostic was "running", I reported back in a distressed tone of voice that my drive reported a test failure while in reality I was still sitting staring at the same screen. Fortunately the fact that the drive had "failed" the test was enough for a replacement to be shipped out to me on next day delivery, and so within 24 hours I was up back and running again
Everybody seems to be missing one point here, which is that they are providing the actual warranty service. If your hardware fails due to a manufacturing defect, they will replace it. This is a "normal" warranty and the fact that they are providing it means that they are capable of testing their hardware even with Linux installed. Heck, just install Windows, run your test suite, then wipe and install Linux.
CompleteCare means something different. It means that even if your hardware is working 100% perfectly, say your toddler decides that it is thirsty and pours a gallon of water over it, frying the motherboard. Under a normal warranty, this is not a manufacturing defect and therefore is not covered. The whole point of CompleteCare is that it will cover accidents like this.
It still doesn't covert theft/loss for obvious reasons, but otherwise it is as close as you're going to get to full insurance on your laptop. For a pretty reasonable rate, I might add.
I agree that the simple answer obviously is that their tech support staff doesn't know enough to cope. See, you can't script out things like in Windows - or outsource most of it. You have to employ people who actually know a bit about unix (basic *ix knowledge is mandatory, though Linux is obviously better).
;)
Outsourcing bites them in the rear. That didn't take long, did it?
I used to work for a company where we asked a HP reseller for a quote for a not inexpensive HP EVA SAN. We mentioned up front that we wanted to run the latest Fedora on the clients for two reasons: 1) We weren't in a position to be able to afford RHEL and ii) we needed some cutting edge libraries for the tools we were using on the server. After a couple of weeks, we were asked if we could use RHEL as they didn't think they could support it, and again I gave the reasons why we couldn't. Two days later, they phoned back to tell me that they could sell us the SAN, but they wouldn't be able to honour the warranty since HP UK would only support RHEL or SLES - so could we use either of those? I replied no, but said we just wanted hardware support as we had been compiling HBA drivers for the past few years on Fedora without any problems. Another couple of days and I get another phone call - apparently they had spoken to HP UK directly, and they would even refuse to honour the hardware warranty under Fedora. So I said, jokingly, if a SCSI drive fails, does that mean they wouldn't ship a replacement under warranty because the clients were running Fedora - and I was told pointblank that this was the case. At this point I laughed, and HP lost a SAN sale...
Actually, software can damage (poorly designed) hardware:
- Hardware registers directly control hardware operation. There are often specifications on how to operate the hardware via the registers, but if that is ignored, it can damage hardware. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_register . Optimally, there should be some hardware circuit to prevent usage outside of spec.
- Tristate pins can cause damage. These pins can be specified as i/o or undefined, and if the pin is forced to low or high, but the connection is the opposite, you can get a short.
Last year I bought a Dell 2405 FPW(24" wide screen LCD monitor). I build my own machines and run only GNU/Linux so the monitor was just a part. About a week after I got it I saw a small dent in the LCD so I called up Dell to get a replacement. As soon as I got a tech support person and I told them my problem they asked me what OS I ran. I said it didn't matter but they insisted I told them so I said Linux. At that point they said they could do not diagnosis the problem(even through I already did) and if I wanted my problem to be fixed I could call a 1-900 who may or may not be able to fix it. I went back and worth with the person for about an hour before I hung up. I was able to e-mail Dell support and they were able to get me a replacement. Dell's problem is if you have a hardware problem all there scripts are for Windows and they don't want to trust customers about what is wrong with their computer so they thought it would be easier to just not support Linux at all.
3) Dell wants to see if it is profitable to sell Linux BEFORE it commits a lot of resources into it.
Rethinking email
are you retarded? or do you just play a retard on slashdot?
If this stands -- if Dell is adamant in this illogical refusal to extend warranty coverage to a machine carrying a non-MS OS, then I have bought my last Dell ever (and I've bought 4 over the past 5 years). Screw that noise! Market pressure, people -- it just works!
licet differant, aequabitur
If the customer lived in certain states such as Florida it would be a moot point. Florida has laws against CompleteCare type coverage. Purchases are not eligible for certain types of warranties.
It's an experiment designed to fail. No price break over Windows, and now no hardware support. A year now, Dell will say that the market just isn't there for preinstalled Linux boxes and go back to the Party Line of "Want Linux? Buy a Windows box and reformat it."
I think the Federal Trade Commission should be looking hard at just how much Microsoft money is getting passed around under the table.
dell has already stated that it was a system glitch that caused the warranty services to become unavailable on ubuntu machines and that they will reoffer the warranties soon.
According to this post, Dell is stating that this was a mistake on there part, and they're working to resolve it. Looks like more of us should review Hanlon's razor . . .
When I go to dell.com, I immediately see a large and friendly banner that proclaims "By Popular Demand. Ubuntu Has Arrived." Maybe that's because it detects I'm on OpenSUSE, though...
From everything I've read, Dell has not made any official statement about the CompleteCare issue. It could be they've made a business decision like the "worry" you mention. Or it could be they're working out the kinks somewhere in the ordering system, the sales support scripts, the tech support scripts. Fact is, we won't know until they actually tell us.
For now this is a minor bump in the road, not a sign that Dell is leaving Linux at the altar again.
PS - most extended warranties *are* pure profit in any case.
I'm sure their only motive is that they do not want to pay people who have the knowledge to troubleshoot hardware problems in a *nix environemnt, but... I had a Dell Lattitude C640, that had some bug that would cause the fan to stop working. The laptop would subsequently get very hot. I went through 6 or so hard drives before I bought a new laptop, dumped windows back on the C640 and passed it down to the wife. As a linux user, I am used to being treated as a second class citizen. Right or wrong, I've come to expect it.
Due to an ordering system glitch during the weekend, we inadvertently removed extended warranty and CompleteCare options from our Website. We're working to get the issue resolved as quickly as possible and those options will be reinstated this afternoon. If customers ordered systems when extended warranties weren't available, they will have the option of upgrading at the original price. There will be more details on that program soon. For more details visit http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/06/05/ 17450.aspx
http://enterprise.linux.com/enterprise/07/06/05/20 31237.shtml?tid=7&tid=23
Dell spokesperson Jeremy Bolen says, "Due to an ordering system glitch during the weekend, we inadvertently removed extended warranty and CompleteCare options from our configurator. We're working to get the issue resolved as quickly as possible, and those options will be reinstated this afternoon. If customers ordered systems when extended warranties weren't available, they will have the option of upgrading at the original price. There will be more details on that program soon."
After installing Ubuntu on my laptop I found out about an interesting bug which sometimes stops the realtime clock. When that happens the machine won't even POST and the only way to recover is by opening up the laptop and removing a coin cell battery for a bit. Some people returned their laptops to Dell for service. I read somewhere that someone had their motherboard replaced. Fortunately it never happened to me.
I think it more likely they believe their users will mis-identify software issues as hardware issues and request replacement hardware.
...)
A simple solution for Dell is to provide a standalone hardware diagnostic suite on CDROM. Then they honor the even-thrown-bricks warranty if:
- The issue isn't behavior-related (i.e. cracked screen)
- The standalone diagnostic won't run (i.e. CD drive or mobo busted, RAM fried,
- The standalone diagnostic identifies a fault in another hunk of the machine.
and anything else is assumed to be a software issue and not their problem.
The logical platform for this is a LiveCD/LiveDVD with a Dell-Ubuntu base install package on it, too. (Then they can also honor the waranty if Ubuntu won't run from the "coaster", if the reinstall won't succeed, or the reinstall won't run when virgin.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
E1505 systems with either Ubuntu or Vista. A couple things to note: the Ubuntu laptop comes with an nvidia video card, ati for the Vista system. I bumped the ram, proc, and battery on both systems (still the same for both). The Vista system "wins" by $25. I did this rather quickly, so I may have missed something (coat + Vista - crapware = $25 less?).
Ubuntu system ($867):
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core(TM) processor DUO processor T2350 2MB Cache/1.86GHz
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Edition version 7.04
LCD PANEL 15.4 inch UltraSharp(TM) Wide Screen WXGA+ Display with TrueLife(TM)
MEMORY 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm
HARD DRIVE 80GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive
OPTICAL DIVE 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache(TM)
My Accessories
BATTERY OPTIONS 85 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
WIRELESS CARDS Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g
My Service
WARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service
ENVIRONMENTAL OPTIONS Free Recycling Kit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
SOUND OPTIONS Integrated Audio
Processor Branding Intel Centrino Core Duo Processor
Microsoft Vista System ($842):
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core(TM) DUO T2350 (1.86GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533MHz FSB)
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista(TM) Home Basic
LCD PANEL 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display with TrueLife(TM)(glossy)
MEMORY 1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ, 2 DIMM
HARD DRIVE 80GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
OPTICAL DRIVE 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
VIDEO CARD 256MB ATI MOBILITY(TM) RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory(TM)
SOUND OPTIONS Integrated Audio
My Accessories
BATTERY OPTIONS 85 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
WIRELESS CARDS Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g
My Software
PRODUCTIVITY Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
My Service
WARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service
GETTING-STARTED HELP No Dell On Call
DIAL-UP INTERNET ACCESS 6 Months America Online Internet Access Included
ENVIRONMENTAL OPTIONS Free Recycling Kit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
Network Card and Modem Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Miscellaneous E1505 Dual Core
Processor Branding Intel Centrino Core Duo Processor
Labels Windows Vista(TM) Basic
when they cancel this offering in a year or two due to poor sales, they can say they tried, but Linux on the desktop just doesn't work.
I can see one 500-pound gorilla that is really keen for things to play out that way.
you had me at #!
How else is Dell supposed to discontinue selling Linux in 6 months, if it doesn't have a way to keep sales deflated?
Why do they need to create something for Linux when they already have something better? Dell already has bootable diagnostic software. Hell, with most models all you have to do is hit CTRL+ALT+D (not DEL) during POST and it'll run a basic hard-drive diagnostic test. Why complicate the matter with running diagnostic software under your native OS when you can avoid it completely?
line answered by knowledgeable fellow in Ottawa, Canada.
I was brief. I wished him well, offered support, and maybe one day I will
buy an Ubuntu Dell. He seemed quickly entertained by the priority order of word choice.
Who is more important today, Dell or Ubuntu? I only use one of the two - on a Thinkpad T30.
Thanks for doing that, however for future reference a much easier way is to just copy paste from the html source and turn on "Plain Old Text" mode. No need to guess at whitespace!
when I saw protection against bricks I thought it was talking about 3rd party hacked firmware fails on a device....