MSN was originally a AOL-esque non-internet service. Didn't catch on. Then it was an internet service provider. Didn't catch on. Then it's just a bunch of lame bug-factory web sites including the ultra hackable Hotmail and MSN Messenger. It's caught on but do they make money from it? Don't think so 'cos they keep selling parts off. It's still no Yahoo! or AOL and that's what the original poster meant by "win".
1) Pretty much anything won't work if there's bad hardware.
2) A reliable operating system doesn't fail if I install crappy software. It might get slow but it shouldn't crash or BSOD. Incidently, the applications which are most likely to make your machine crash are "crappy programs" like Microsoft Office but I digress...
3) Pretty much ditto the above. Why should I have to have it "configured correctly" for it to be stable? Is there some "act like a piece of crap" dialog I missed somewhere?
Your anecdotal statistics not withstanding, how do you know I have it misconfigured? I would say OS X is both a better and more reliable operating system than Win2K.
Yes, I use Windows 2000 every day as it happens. It's a steaming pile of crap. And the job before my current one we did Win2K web servers and as a matter of course they were rebooted every two weeks as a pre-emptive strike.
While it's better than previous versions of windows, it's still pretty crap.
What would you say if there was a way to support your favorite OS or X11 Desktop Environment by agreeing to use an ad-sponsored version? The ad would show *only once*, during the load of the OS
Once when I load? Isn't one of the biggest selling points of *nix in general the high uptime? Now windows...
And who do the (minimal) ad bucks go to anyway? A percentage depending on how many lines of code you contribute?
[17:24:13] *** Captcpu set mode +m [17:24:25] and now.. we are starting.:) [17:24:34] So I want to ask any people in the north americas to let the Europeans ask questions first. Just to be nice. [17:24:39] good evening everyone, I'm Captcpu and I'll be you're moderator this evening:) [17:24:46] and that's mike if you didn't know:) [17:24:53] Hi! [17:25:27] Even though we are starting early, I will stay until 8 (my time) unless we run out of questions.;-) [17:25:34] *** _V_ (v@t-17-147.athome.tue.nl) has joined the channel. [17:25:40] the way tonight's chat is going to work is, you can private message me your questions, and I'll foward them to mike:) [17:25:56] *** AtomoZero (~asd@212.31.232.158) has joined the channel. [17:26:01] so, Private message me away, I'm waiting:) [17:26:11] *** bobman (~bobman@pandion.psouth.net) has joined the channel. [17:26:21] *** #obos_q&a Topic changed by Captcpu: OpenBeOS Question and Answer Sessions: We have started:) [17:27:13] *** Matzon (BrianMatzo@80.197.154.22) has joined the channel. [17:27:19] What if we threw a war and no one showed up?:-) [17:27:24] Someone, ask something! [17:27:25] *** _JeJe_ (JeJe@35.191.62.62.9massy1-1-ro-bas-1.9tel.net) has joined the channel. [17:27:27] *** _V_ has left the channel. [17:27:28] we'd be in trouble:) [17:27:38] *** Christian (~Chr@212.31.232.158) has joined the channel. [17:27:41] it's simple/msg captcpu Your question here [17:27:52] *** _V_ (v@t-17-147.athome.tue.nl) has joined the channel. [17:28:05] DEBUG: Tab completion used [17:28:13] [M]-> Captcpu > might be a good idea to make mention of that in the topic for new joiners [17:28:20] monolith - no estoy embarrazada. [17:28:21]:-) [17:28:32] Hey Mike, Monolith would like to know if you're with child. [17:28:36] *** Keelr (~BeOS@217.129.200.157) has joined the channel. [17:28:38] Monolith asked if I was pregnant.:-) [17:29:03] While I first said, no, I have to say that it feels like we are giving birth.;-) [17:29:04] *** notion (~no@ras04.ras.SBG.AC.AT) has joined the channel. [17:29:26] first Q: is someone already working on the kernel VM? It seems like a very urgent task to be completed before other things can be touched... [17:29:32] Yes. [17:29:36] Next question.;-) [17:29:59] DEBUG: Tab completion used [17:30:07] Since newos is nowhere complete, why did we fork this soon? [17:30:26] [M]-> Captcpu > is he willing to divulge any rough specifications on what the VM will and will not support? ie. integrated VM/FS cache and/or mmap/munmap? [17:30:32] Good question. I am wondering that myself.;-) [17:30:44] and to add to it, he has to say... Why rename all newos methods to be BeOS compatible (thus making obos kernel undiffable with newos), when we could have provided an abstraction layer? [17:30:48] *** x-gh0st (~webmaster@pD9E17AB9.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined the channel. [17:31:01] *** DragonSoull (DragonSoul@195-23-147-35.nr.ip.pt) has joined the channel. [17:31:23] Truth is, Travis et al have a lot going on in their lives and they haven't been making major changes to NewOS. If you go back even 4 months or so, there weren't a lot of check ins. [17:31:41] *** ericools (~bob@zzz-064199233086.splitrock.net) has joined the channel. [17:31:42] *** sean_dark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-122-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has joined the channel. [17:31:48] And we are getting to the point where we need to spread our wings and fly. [17:32:09] here's our next question from When do you join B.E.OS? [17:32:32] *** AlienSoldier (AlienSoldi@ts1-136.f2431.quebectel.com) has joined the channel. [17:32:42] and a secondary more serious question: What about binary compatibilty in the driver side? [17:33:05] *** #obos_q&a Topic changed by Captcpu: OpenBeOS Question and Answer Sessions:/msg captcpu with_your_question [17:33:14] *** Methedras (Olivier@bordeaux-2-a8-62-147-55-227.dial.proxad.n et) has joined the channel. [17:33:19] As for the second part, we are doing the easy stuff ATM. There are bigger changes to be made that will make the question irrelevant. [17:33:32] BlueOS - when will you join us?;-) [17:34:03] I don't see anything in our way to having driver level compatability. No bus_manager compatability, though. [17:34:32] here's another one mike... is he willing to divulge any rough specifications on what the VM will and will not support? ie. integrated VM/FS cache and/or mmap/munmap? [17:35:03] Yes to both of those features. I would not want to ship without. [17:35:17] At least, that is the plan ATM.;-) [17:35:19] *** misza (misza@p93-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au) has joined the channel. [17:35:36] Here's a nice one from: Why did you decide to start the OpenBeOS project? [17:35:47] Insanity.;-) [17:36:21] *** DragonSoull (DragonSoul@195-23-147-35.nr.ip.pt) has quit IRC (Excess Flood) [17:36:25] good answer:) [17:36:41] *** DragonSoull (DragonSoul@195-23-147-35.nr.ip.pt) has joined the channel. [17:36:52] but wait..there's more... [17:37:09] Seriously - I had a project that I have been working on for years on BeOS. The short version of the story is that it is an object oriented paradigm in which every class is a process and every instance is a thread. It needs hyper fast messaging and process/thread swapping. No other OS will do that. Even R5 wasn't the best. [17:37:44] *** nullify (nullify@pool-138-89-44-225.mad.east.verizon.net) has joined the channel. [17:37:47] So, when the Palm announcement was made, I looked at Linux and the BSD's, but none of them were as fast and as easy to use. So I decided that BeOS must continue on. [17:38:24] here's an interesting one from: the new font engine is going to be freetype right? when can we expect things to reach the stage where that is working? it's part of app_server, so we need to wait for app_server don't we?:-) [17:39:12] *** seandark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-150-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has joined the channel. [17:39:28] The font engine is indeed going to be freetype. Proto 6 is in development right now. I don't think that font handling is in it, though. [17:40:36] *** grim (~graham@host62-7-92-48.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined the channel. [17:40:44] Here's one: Why are people writing custom versions of basic CLI tools when they could be obtained from, eg, *BSD? [17:41:59] *** misza (misza@p93-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.8.4-0411]: i've been blurred!") [17:42:03] Good question. Many of those custom CLI apps are little tiny things to help us develop. I doubt that they will be part of the final "release". But since we don't have bash, et al, yet, some little things to help us work and test make sense. The whole shell is scheduled to go out the door. [17:42:19] *** misza (misza@p93-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au) has joined the channel. [17:43:17] How is the name choosing going? Will we stick with OpenBeOS (unlikely) or do we have a list of possible names already? [17:43:59] We have been cutting the list of names down. Many that we submitted were not usable for one reason or another. [17:44:03] *** SmallStepForMan (~chatzilla@c17827.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au) has joined the channel. [17:44:14] It hasn't been our top priority, but it is getting there. [17:44:24] *** mene (~vision@h237n1fls33o835.telia.com) has joined the channel. [17:45:01] Here's an interesting one: question: who are you? [17:45:03] you = captcpu [17:45:09] may I answer Mike? [17:45:17] sure [17:46:07] I'm a web developer and college student from Las Vegas. I'm Kurtis Kopf's Business Partner in real life, the guy that's designing the new website for Open-Beos:) [17:46:21] and I've agreed to help as I can:) [17:47:09] besides that I'm a pretty normal guy.. I think.. [17:47:16] *** M_BeOS (M_BeOS@modem-1994.lynx.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined the channel. [17:47:25] *** Fanskapet (~shoutingo@d212-151-145-37.swipnet.se) has joined the channel. [17:47:35] Someone (forgive me for forgetting your name) wanted to know about the Game Kit, what's the status? [17:48:05] Game Kit. Ahh. The poor, misbegotten step child.:-) [17:48:17] Honestly, I haven't heard from RobMed in months. [17:48:46] GK is one of the items on the list for the poor unfortunate soul who signed on to be the "C++ code finisher". [17:49:58] Here's one: I read a review of TuneTracker, wherein Dane Scott mentioned that obos would have a first release this year - ofcourse he is only speculating... but what is our (roughly) timeframe? [17:50:25] Sigh. So many ways to answer this. There is the Commodore answer "when it is done". [17:50:40] There is the Microsoft answer "Q3, 2002". There is the real answer... [17:51:32] I very strongly feel that we could finish this by the end of 2002. It will mean some long nights and hard work. But I think that it could happen. What would it take? [17:52:02] Some more *REAL* help. Some people willing to really dig in, grab some piece of work and ride it until it is done. [17:52:25] Ooooh.. question about networking: Question: I've seen recently that the network stack is being moved into the kernel (if it hasn't already been done), and that sockets will be file descriptors. Does this mean that the net team borrowing ideas from BONE, and trying to recreate it? Has the problem with select been fixed yet? [17:52:57] Where is David when I need him?;-) [17:53:17] DEBUG: Tab completion used [17:53:24] [M]-> mphipps > select will depend on the new kernel [17:53:25] DEBUG: Tab completion used [17:53:31] [M]-> mphipps > it's not properly fixable on R5 [17:54:09] The networking stack, as it is today, runs as a kernel module. Is this BONE like? No. BONE had it truly built in, I think (I wasn't on the beta list). [17:54:47] *** BlueOS (~maillard@AAmiens-106-1-5-244.abo.wanadoo.fr) has quit IRC ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") [17:55:16] The select issue is very easy, with source code. The OBOS kernel will handle select right, out of the gate. It remains to be seen if our networking stack will work properly with R5's kernel's select. I doubt it. [17:55:26] *** devo (devo@89.Red-80-33-179.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined the channel. [17:55:49] Here's we go... [17:55:52] 1. I've heard requests to make server applications like mySQL run in OBOS. Are you doing any work in that direction? And if so don't you think that's outside of the "Desktop OS" focus of the original BeOS? [17:56:12] *Excellent question*. [17:56:50] *** doughboy (~mel@ip68-14-158-45.ri.ri.cox.net) has joined the channel. [17:56:59] I figured;) [17:57:51] mySQL would certainly be required on a server. But I can see, too, where it would be cool to have it on a client. For developers, for one thing. So I don't think that doing some small amount of work to make mySQL work is a bad thing. But that is different from major work or porting it ourselves. [17:58:45] I ***STRONGLY*** believe in the focus on the desktop. BeOS wasn't, isn't and shouldn't be a server OS. Does that mean we shouldn't be able to run ftpd? No. But the *FOCUS* is on the desktop. [17:58:55] *** vincent-b (~karatazni@isis.aleph-fr.org) has joined the channel. [17:59:07] Here's an innocent question: Will R1 support localization or is this feature reserved for R2? [18:00:28] R2. Localization is *VERY* important. And it *has* to be done right. And it really needs a whole ball of other features, like GUI with a layout engine. [18:00:39] *** Maxime (Goldfinger@ACB55BF9.ipt.aol.com) has joined the channel. [18:01:20] *** sean_dark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-122-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [18:01:38] and now we have hit the 19:00 hour [18:01:43] Oficially starting =) [18:02:32] *** epakSnylS (~shoutingo@d212-151-145-84.swipnet.se) has joined the channel. [18:02:34] can i ask, 'What plans have been made to succeed in the areas Be failed in, the marketing, the lack of drivers, and apps? Without these we could be in for a repeat....' [18:02:51] That is probably an FAQ.;-) [18:03:13] *** seandark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-150-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) [18:03:36] Few, honestly. We are an OSS project. Marketing is not our job. [18:03:46] *** FerryMan (~lbaydak@CPE00500482b408.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ) has joined the channel. [18:04:17] I expect that OBOS will have a "RedHat". Some company to come along, package our source with a dozen CDs of apps and sell them. [18:04:48] *** zathras (~dreid@host213-120-109-139.in-addr.btopenworld.co m) has joined the channel. [18:04:48] *** sean_dark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-150-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has joined the channel. [18:05:06] *** Brunis (~brunis@a116d9.elisa.omakaista.fi) has joined the channel. [18:05:20] *** mdvb747 (~mike@12-246-124-120.client.attbi.com) has joined the channel. [18:05:28] Driver wise, we are helping and supporting anyone who is interested in writing them. Scott is doing an awesome job at BeDriver, and BU is working in that area, as well. I am hoping that with the shrinking of the hardware market, there will be fewer drivers to write. [18:05:54] Here's one from: What are the GUI Interface plans for after version 1.x, are they in consideration now? I have some proposals, where should I send them, and in what format? [18:06:41] Yes, we are thinking about a number of things. [18:07:08] " I refer to API and features. " [18:07:18] *** macdonag79 (~graham@host62-7-121-90.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [18:07:33] There are a few proposals out there, now, for new looks and feels. I have certainly heard about Gonx enough times.;-) [18:07:34] *** feach (nobody@bgp01114366bgs.westln01.mi.comcast.net) has joined the channel. [18:07:34] *** KKBaSS (kkbass@c-24-98-241-202.atl.client2.attbi.com) has joined the channel. [18:07:42] *** feach has left the channel. [18:07:54] API wise, I haven't hear a whole lot. Any proposals, thoughts, ideas go to Glass Elevator. [18:08:20] *** Olhado (~a@pool-141-157-186-38.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined the channel. [18:08:52] here's a long one from: Do you agree that it would be better to clone the current UI (Yellow Tabs, same functions like double click a tab minimize it) and implement all those functions exactly, and provide an interface to skin the UI(e.g change position of buttons, implement light skinning) having the current UI as the default one because that is familiar to alot of users, Rather than to create an entirely different UI that may be infl [18:11:12] For R1, there is no promise of skinning. The only "promised" feature is that it will look like and work like it does today. [18:11:20] *** Fanskapet (~shoutingo@d212-151-145-37.swipnet.se) has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [18:12:10] Here's a good one from: As to help the community and OBOS in itself, does the OBOS team will suggest a line of hardware so that futur buying streamline the community to have easier driver transition in the first release R1. [18:12:33] *** M_BeOS (M_BeOS@modem-1994.lynx.dialup.pol.co.uk) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.9-0630]: i've been blurred!") [18:12:40] Sigh. ATM, this is a tough one. We have the Matrox driver "in the bag", so for video, that is my only promise. [18:12:50] *** M_BeOS (M_BeOS@modem-3070.lynx.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined the channel. [18:12:57] *** andrewjg (~andrewjg@cae31-216-008.sc.rr.com) has joined the channel. [18:13:10] If the kernel boots on it today, it is likely that it will tomorrow, too. [18:13:10] *** mark_hellegers (~mark_hell@n105.dial.tue.nl) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.9-0630]: i've been blurred!") [18:13:59] As for other stuff (networking, sound, etc), we can't really say. If current R5 supports it, esp if the driver is publically available (i.e. source), we probably will, too. [18:14:51] and now states "Out of the 214 listed programmers how many are contributing?" [18:15:50] Not enough. In fact, we are reworking the web site to make it more representitive of those contributing. Let's put it this way - there are 32 people with CVS write access. And none of the team leaders are beating me up because they have to submit so many patches. [18:16:10] OBOS is still a place where *1* person can make a huge difference. [18:17:02] and... have you been contacted by any corporate/government/educational organizations that are interested in OpenBeOS? [18:17:33] Yes. A few corporate. [18:17:41] And we are working with those. [18:17:50] this reminds me [18:18:00] *** Bman (~is@1Cust242.tnt9.stl1.da.uu.net) has joined the channel. [18:18:26] *** Captcpu set mode +b *!*@microsoft.com [18:18:30] *** el_d00d (el_d00d@c46159.upc-c.chello.nl) has joined the channel. [18:18:30] there. that fixes that. [18:18:32] anyway.. [18:19:35] here's one from: Question: Another tough one: Is true multiuser support in the future of OpenBeOS? [18:19:36] Nice.:-) [18:19:56] It all depends on what you mean.;-) [18:20:01] For example - [18:20:30] *** Bman (~is@1Cust242.tnt9.stl1.da.uu.net) has quit IRC ("Bowser[1.1.1-release]: server window terminating...") [18:20:41] If you mean "I want to log in and have my own email settings, home dir, etc", then that is an R2 thing. [18:21:26] If you mean "I want OBOS to be just like my Linux box where I can have all of my 1337 friends log in and download warez", than no. [18:21:31] *** Bman (is@1Cust242.tnt9.stl1.da.uu.net) has joined the channel. [18:21:34] *** KKBaSS (kkbass@c-24-98-241-202.atl.client2.attbi.com) has quit IRC () [18:21:47] Here's a good one: I can't program, and neither can many of us... How can we help on other ways? [18:22:27] Just like a kid at camp. Send money.;-) [18:22:39] Seriously, though, folks. [18:23:14] One way is to volunteer at some of the other BeOS groups. Many of them are always looking for *GOOD* help. [18:23:31] Translators can always mirror and translate our site (or others). [18:23:39] Being helpful in the community. [18:23:47] Being on IRC and answering questions. [18:24:14] And also doing testing. We are (slowly) getting toward another release. We would like more people testing and looking at things. [18:24:44] Here's one from the Dark Side of the Mac: Are there any plans for a PPC version of OBOS? [18:25:03] When Steve Jobs calls me and asks for one. [18:25:39] Seriously, though - I love PPC. I *want* to give my Mom an iMac and have it run OBOS. [18:26:18] The question is time and resources. I can't justify dropping VM or other "generic" work for a port to a platform that doesn't really want us. [18:26:28] *** Fuzz (~Steve@host-46-214.dsl.innercite.com) has joined the channel. [18:27:16] If someone wants to do it, I am more than open to helping in any way. But I can't justify "assigning" people to it. [18:27:33] and an interesting question from: When can we expect USB support and a nice media player? [18:28:18] USB - Hopefully with R1. I have a good USB book and I have done some preliminary work on it. [18:28:48] "Nice Media Player" is somewhat vague. I would have to ask what is wrong with R5's. [18:28:57] DEBUG: Tab completion used [18:29:07] Is anybody working on OBOS API documentation? [18:29:08].....and if so, what tools are being used to documen Is anybody working on OBOS API documentation? [18:29:24] sorry abou the repeat there at the end:) [18:29:24] *** scanty (~baxter@ool-18bf1851.dyn.optonline.net) has joined the channel. [18:30:30] OBOS API documentation has a team, yes. What tools? Not 100% sure. We are using doxygen inside the code. [18:31:25] Here's one from down under: Well, OBOS has been going for just over 9 months now. How do you look back on the last 9 months, and is it according to expactations, subpar or way beyond expectations. BTW - good morning from Australia [18:31:28] *** Methedras (Olivier@bordeaux-2-a8-62-147-55-227.dial.proxad.n et) has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [18:31:42] G'Day to you! [18:32:09] The last 9 months have been unimaginable. I had no clue what I was in for. [18:32:15] None of us did. [18:32:49] It has been a fun trip, though. My only regrets are a) that I can't do it full time and b) the price that my family (and others) have paid. [18:32:53] *** AtomoZero (~asd@212.31.232.158) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.8.8-0506]: i've been blurred!") [18:32:53] *** earlcp (earlcp@on-osh-ap3-03-45.look.ca) has joined the channel. [18:33:35] *** Methedras (~Olivier@bordeaux-2-a8-62-147-55-227.dial.proxad. net) has joined the channel. [18:33:43] and from: Will there be localized versions of OBOS, and can some of us help translating OBOS? [18:35:05] el d00d, huh?:-) Nice. Localization (which we touched on briefly above) is an issue for R2+. I know how important it is to you. But it really should be done right. And that means when we have the time and freedom to do it the Right Way. [18:36:05] Mike, Monolith has informed us that our spanish sucks. [18:36:33] I didn't make that one up.;-) [18:36:35] but.. onto the next question: How's progress with the change of team structure going? Are the leads working on todo-list-type pages? IMO, it would need to be pretty fine grained to allow people to pick up a smallish task, work on it, submit it and be happy:-) Rather than TODO: Finish the kernel... [18:36:58] *** el_d00d (el_d00d@c46159.upc-c.chello.nl) has quit IRC () [18:37:10] The team structure didn't really change all that much. Adding people to the teams changed. And that went pretty quick. [18:37:42] Some TODO lists are done. Some need more work. If you want to work in an area and can't find the todo list, ask the team lead. They will help you. [18:37:52] *** Deris (el_d00d@c46159.upc-c.chello.nl) has joined the channel. [18:37:58] And if they don't have one, they will get sick of people asking...;-) [18:39:00] Here's a long winded one: currently there's a debate on wheter obos should be fully graphical or if it should have a text console as well just in case. It's sure that the second would be useful during kernel development, but it'd break the BeOS phylosophy... What's your opinion? [18:39:20] *** newBE (~trillian1@du-013-054.access.de.clara.net) has joined the channel. [18:39:29] This is in reference, I think, to a conversation that we were having on the kernel list. [18:40:49] For the average user, I think that the system should be just as it is today. I can see some value to a boot disk that is text based. For either emergencies or as a "download this, see what hardware it detects". But not for users to use every day. [18:41:47] Are we going to have humorous API call's just like Be did? [18:41:56] *** Keelr (~BeOS@217.129.200.157) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.9-0630]: want to learn how to do this ? ok do/quit") [18:42:12] *** Schnooz (~paradisek@h24-76-15-122.vw.shawcable.net) has joined the channel. [18:42:14] I won't dictate that, either way. I certainly intend to extend the "is_computer_on" series in the kernel. [18:42:34] *** andrewjg (~andrewjg@cae31-216-008.sc.rr.com) has quit IRC ("Client Exiting") [18:43:14] *** RageMax (~max@12-226-16-151.client.attbi.com) has joined the channel. [18:43:22] here's one from: Will there be a new OBOS update that will replace certain things (like apps and preferences) [18:43:39] I think that this is asking about an automatic update. [18:43:41] *** Keelr (~BeOS@217.129.200.157) has joined the channel. [18:43:50] Personally, I like that idea very much. [18:44:11] *** andrewjg (~andrewjg@cae31-216-008.sc.rr.com) has joined the channel. [18:44:29] I know that there has been a lot of interest in the community about that. I would love for someone to write such a thing. Can't promise that it will be us. [18:45:00] Programming, Oh my!: What about a BeIDE replacement ? (I suggest XEmacs >:-) [18:45:29] E$*#()#*Q)(? Begone you heathen dog! There is aught but one True Editor: VI! [18:45:30]:-) [18:46:07] *** Protean-Son (Protean-So@ptd-24-198-97-240.maine.rr.com) has quit IRC () [18:46:28] I put BeIDE in the same catagory as a number of other apps (browsers, mail clients, etc) - every distro should have one. [18:46:40] But they are not necessarily the realm of the OS group. [18:47:07] Will opentracker be moved into OpenBeOS CVS..and developed under OpenBeOS name? [18:47:44] *** geist (~geist@tkgeisel.com) has joined the channel. [18:47:47] I doubt it. That would "cut off" other groups that might want to use it. [18:48:30] *** datatec_on_my_be (datatec_on@CPE00045a2d7c98.cpe.net.cable.rogers.c om) has joined the channel. [18:48:42] *** n_ (PENTAGON@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) has joined the channel. [18:48:50] here's one: What can we expect from the OBOS POSIX-layer ? [18:49:34] Hopefully, functionality. I would *love* to see it work as well as R5, plus mmap and select. [18:49:38] *** zephir (~zephir@hltp-a-104.resnet.purdue.edu) has joined the channel. [18:50:04] cute. fuzzy. animals? Linux has Tux, BSD has their cute little demon. Should OpenBeOS have it's own cute animal? If so, what should it be?:) [18:50:04] *** Maxime has left the channel. [18:51:20] OpenBeOS will not have a cute animal. Whether some other, different name has one or not is up in the air. The admin staff is about 50/50 split on whether it is a good idea or not. It would have to be a good one. [18:51:29] *** meianoite (~chatzilla@200.167.235.25) has joined the channel. [18:52:17] Question for mphipps How much time do you spend on OBOS? Do you work full time and then work on OBOS? [18:52:26] About every waking minute. [18:52:52] I do indeed have a full time job. (And a wife and 2 kids). I work on OBOS an average of 4 hours a day. [18:53:28] *** frestaway (manuel@209-128-114-098.bayarea.net) has joined the channel. [18:53:56] Packages? for Me?: are there any plans for a _standard_ package format for program distribution, possibly for R2? [18:54:38] Plans? No. This is a veyr good idea. And I think that it ties in to the installer/updater mentioned earlier. [18:54:49] (Pardon my dyslexia). [18:54:49] *** Guest (~jirc@visp244-160.visp.co.nz) has joined the channel. [18:54:53] *** newBE has left the channel. [18:56:09] *** tialaramex (~soton@host217-34-64-220.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined the channel. [18:56:25] Cash? Money?: How configurable will the VM and DiskCache be for users? Example I would love to devote 512K to just the DiskCache. [18:56:37] Ideally, not at all. [18:57:22] Very briefly, the ideal VM/cache system would need no tuning and would always have the information you want to access in ram. [18:58:09] I know that we won't be *ideal*, but very good would be nice. I would like to think that mundane details like disk cache and VM size would be something that the OS could handle on its own. [18:58:13] *** ViP223 (~josh@c17434.chirn1.vic.optusnet.com.au) has joined the channel. [18:59:16] *** zapitous (~ianzepp@12-219-136-241.client.mchsi.com) has joined the channel. [18:59:26] Will you release a commercial version of OBOS (for companies), so that you can afford OBOS-update servers or such? [18:59:39] =) sorry! [19:00:22] *** Onesimus (~vision@ti521110a080-0272.bb.online.no) has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [19:00:22] I think that the question here is really "How will you afford to run OBOS without any money?" [19:00:40] Part of the answer is that we will cross that bridge when we come to it. [19:00:52] *** Nahum (~vision@ti521110a080-0272.bb.online.no) has joined the channel. [19:01:04] Part of the answer is that I am hoping that distro makers see good reason to "give back to the community". [19:01:17] *** El-Al (~Al@modem-606.babbelas.dialup.pol.co.uk) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.9-0629]:time for a nice cup o") [19:02:15] *** mdvb747 (~mike@12-246-124-120.client.attbi.com) has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [19:02:36] *** mdvb747 (~mike@12-246-124-120.client.attbi.com) has joined the channel. [19:02:38] What about firewalls? Do people have to code their own firewalling software (like in windows 9x) or will the firewalling be built into the kernel or the net_server? (more like Linux) [19:03:47] *** Guest (~jirc@visp244-160.visp.co.nz) has quit IRC ("Leaving") [19:04:00] When you say firewall, you could mean a couple of things. BeOS, by default, had all of the ports closed. Now, I am not a security guru, but that seems very secure to me. [19:04:24] *** Uset (~jirc@visp244-160.visp.co.nz) has joined the channel. [19:05:33] *** zephir has left the channel. [19:05:42] does he aim to try and get market share in the desktop arena, taking from MS, or does he plan on creating the best possible OS, with no compromises made for the less technologically-capable folks that make up the general public? [19:06:46] This is really a marketing question. Think about Linux for a moment. We are more like Linux (the organization) than Be. I am not here to change the world, necessarily. [19:06:58] I am not here to sell N boxes per year. [19:07:34] *** Obelisk][450 (obos@mhcpm1-40.xinu.com) has joined the channel. [19:07:47] I am here to make an OS that I want to run and that you want to run. But I also want to make it work for my Mom (a non-techie). I don't believe that these two things are mutually exclusibe. [19:07:52] (exclusive) [19:09:14] and now.. for the last question for this session. [19:09:16] Is there a timetable for an official OBOS name so we can start grabbing up domain names?:^) [19:10:05] I am assuming you mean "to help out the project".:-) [19:10:54] I just got some mail about this, actually. Hopefully, we will have an annoucement of where the name issue is going soon... [19:11:18] Folks - this has been a lot of fun. [19:11:49] I appreciate you all taking time out to come here. I do have to go, though. [19:11:53] I would also like to express the many private messages I've recieved thanking Mike and his team for all the hard work they have put in. [19:12:09] *** doughboy has left the channel. [19:12:09] *** devo (devo@89.Red-80-33-179.pooles.rima-tde.net) has quit IRC () [19:12:16] I think that we will probably do this either weekly or every other week. [19:12:21] *** Olhado (~a@pool-141-157-186-38.bos.east.verizon.net) has quit IRC () [19:12:49] We will get the logs posted shortly... [19:12:50] *** raft|aw (~nth@213.234.74.109) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.8.8-0506]: i've been blurred!") [19:13:11] Bye, all! Thanks again! [19:13:11] *** mphipps has left the channel. [19:13:19] *** Matzon (BrianMatzo@80.197.154.22) has quit IRC ("Vis nakke sved") [19:13:27] And that ladies and gentleman is the end of the session. Thanks for Attending!
What happens to your "choice" when all the bank use Passport? There aren't as many banks as there used to be and an oligopoly is nearly as effective as a monopoly. The RIAA wouldn't be an issue if there were viable music labels that didn't participate in it. An oligopoly can be ad hoc as well without any organizational structure -- I dare say we all object to crazy ATM fees (weren't ATMs supposed to save the bank money?) but we all end up paying them.
If you want tree profiling (i.e. information about function and child performence) then Rational Quantify is a reasonable alternative to the crap profiler that comes with MSDev.
If you want a flat profiler or need to analyze the cost of specific low level operations then you MUST get Intel VTune.
From the article: The accompanying CD-ROM also comes with some neat stuff, like Tomcat, Jakarta and Xerces, and trial versions of WebSphere and DB2. As an added bonus, the code within has been tested on both Windows and Linux.
So in other words, the CD has a bunch of (almost certainly) out of date versions of Open Source software in order to drive the price up. Vote with you dollars -- don't buy books with CDs!
Content about things like WSDL is also likely out of date by the time it is published.
I'd say there are probably a lot of good online tutorials on these topics that are probably more up to date.
It's from a Simpsons episode entitled "The Computer Wore Menace Shoes" in which Homer "knows too much" and gets transported to an island which is a spoof of "The Prisoner" -- it even has a guest voice of Patrick McGoohan in it as one of the other prisoners.
Well I said I didn't care about it. First Amendment, blah blah blah.
If I were the executive producer of a television show, and there was a committee of people who recognize excellence in television, I would find it insulting that my show isn't even given the opportunity to compete.
True, but the Emmy's ain't it. They don't recognize excellence in television. The recognition of industry slimeballs? An odd facination people have with ranking art to find out which is the "best"? The media whores (Leeza Gibbons, I'm looking your way) who harp over how "robbed" someone was. And they have so many "award" shows now that it's harder not to win one.
What next, are we going to get in a unroar when the grammy's come out too? There are things worth getting worked up about and things (like say award shows) that I could not give a crap ass about.
And yes I've seen buffy and (this is just my opinion) it sucks ass...
We now return you to your regularly scheduled slashdot.
I would think in the wake of 9/11 that the government would be more wary of giving permission for what is essentially a guided missile. Any problems in that area?
I think it has something to do with Hollywood being a bunch of clueless old hacks. Coming up with good ideas is (evidently) hard so everyone says "Hey alot of people like that book, lets make a movie of it but we'll have to take a bunch of stuff out and/or change the ending to make it work".
The other lame idea factory is to take a subculture and then do a movie "about" it but adding bank robbers and/or a love interest to make it accesible to the common man.
What do you want them to do, actually get people to come up with original ideas to create a movie around?
The problem that I had always heard about was that when the VCR broke, you needed to buy a new TV (nobody gets anything repaired these days...) or vice versa.
A few years back there was a big push to have copier / scanner / fax machine. Those didn't sell well either. I'm also reminded of looking at a digital camera for my handspring. At some point I realized that for 1/2 the price of the handspring plugin I could get an actual digital camera of better quality.
If you lived in Tunguska in 1908 you probably wouldn't be so glib.
But I agree, worrying about it is useless... All the indignation seems to ignore the following two facts:
1) If the gub'ment did know about it, they would tell us. 2) There is anything they could do about it if they knew about it. Morgan Freeman ain't President and Bruce Willis ain't going to save you folks!
As an astronomer friend of mine used to say -- "If there was an asteroid heading for the earth why would they tell us?".
Slashdot Mirror
MSN was originally a AOL-esque non-internet service. Didn't catch on. Then it was an internet service provider. Didn't catch on. Then it's just a bunch of lame bug-factory web sites including the ultra hackable Hotmail and MSN Messenger. It's caught on but do they make money from it? Don't think so 'cos they keep selling parts off. It's still no Yahoo! or AOL and that's what the original poster meant by "win".
Microsoft has proven again and again that, in the end, they *will* win
Really? They *always* win?
Bob
MSN
IIS
MSN
ASP Microsoft Office
Hailstorm
etc, etc
Yeah... it's hopeless...
Like Car Alarms, if it goes off all the time, people will just ignore it -- At some point, the noise drowns out the signal.
You would hope that the increase in false positives decreases the number of false negatives but that isn't necessarily true either.
Actually it is crap.
1) Pretty much anything won't work if there's bad hardware.
2) A reliable operating system doesn't fail if I install crappy software. It might get slow but it shouldn't crash or BSOD. Incidently, the applications which are most likely to make your machine crash are "crappy programs" like Microsoft Office but I digress...
3) Pretty much ditto the above. Why should I have to have it "configured correctly" for it to be stable? Is there some "act like a piece of crap" dialog I missed somewhere?
Your anecdotal statistics not withstanding, how do you know I have it misconfigured? I would say OS X is both a better and more reliable operating system than Win2K.
Yes, I use Windows 2000 every day as it happens. It's a steaming pile of crap. And the job before my current one we did Win2K web servers and as a matter of course they were rebooted every two weeks as a pre-emptive strike.
While it's better than previous versions of windows, it's still pretty crap.
What would you say if there was a way to support your favorite OS or X11 Desktop Environment by agreeing to use an ad-sponsored version? The ad would show *only once*, during the load of the OS
Once when I load? Isn't one of the biggest selling points of *nix in general the high uptime? Now windows...
And who do the (minimal) ad bucks go to anyway? A percentage depending on how many lines of code you contribute?
Complicated, ineffective and annoying. I vote no.
[17:24:13] *** Captcpu set mode +m :) :) :) ;-) :) :) :) :-) :) /msg captcpu Your question here :-) :-) ;-) ;-) ;-) /msg captcpu with_your_questionn et) has joined the channel. ;-) ;-) ;-) :) :-) :) :) :-) ;-) ;) ;-)m ) has joined the channel.o m) has joined the channel. ;-) :-) ;-) ;-) .....and if so, what tools are being used to documen Is anybody working on OBOS API documentation? :)n et) has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). net) has joined the channel. :-) Nice. Localization (which we touched on briefly above) is an issue for R2+. I know how important it is to you. But it really should be done right. And that means when we have the time and freedom to do it the Right Way. ;-) ;-) /quit") :-)c om) has joined the channel. :)) has joined the channel. :^) :-)
[17:24:25] and now.. we are starting.
[17:24:34] So I want to ask any people in the north americas to let the Europeans ask questions first. Just to be nice.
[17:24:39] good evening everyone, I'm Captcpu and I'll be you're moderator this evening
[17:24:46] and that's mike if you didn't know
[17:24:53] Hi!
[17:25:27] Even though we are starting early, I will stay until 8 (my time) unless we run out of questions.
[17:25:34] *** _V_ (v@t-17-147.athome.tue.nl) has joined the channel.
[17:25:40] the way tonight's chat is going to work is, you can private message me your questions, and I'll foward them to mike
[17:25:56] *** AtomoZero (~asd@212.31.232.158) has joined the channel.
[17:26:01] so, Private message me away, I'm waiting
[17:26:11] *** bobman (~bobman@pandion.psouth.net) has joined the channel.
[17:26:21] *** #obos_q&a Topic changed by Captcpu: OpenBeOS Question and Answer Sessions: We have started
[17:27:13] *** Matzon (BrianMatzo@80.197.154.22) has joined the channel.
[17:27:19] What if we threw a war and no one showed up?
[17:27:24] Someone, ask something!
[17:27:25] *** _JeJe_ (JeJe@35.191.62.62.9massy1-1-ro-bas-1.9tel.net) has joined the channel.
[17:27:27] *** _V_ has left the channel.
[17:27:28] we'd be in trouble
[17:27:38] *** Christian (~Chr@212.31.232.158) has joined the channel.
[17:27:41] it's simple
[17:27:52] *** _V_ (v@t-17-147.athome.tue.nl) has joined the channel.
[17:28:05] DEBUG: Tab completion used
[17:28:13] [M]-> Captcpu > might be a good idea to make mention of that in the topic for new joiners
[17:28:20] monolith - no estoy embarrazada.
[17:28:21]
[17:28:32] Hey Mike, Monolith would like to know if you're with child.
[17:28:36] *** Keelr (~BeOS@217.129.200.157) has joined the channel.
[17:28:38] Monolith asked if I was pregnant.
[17:29:03] While I first said, no, I have to say that it feels like we are giving birth.
[17:29:04] *** notion (~no@ras04.ras.SBG.AC.AT) has joined the channel.
[17:29:26] first Q: is someone already working on the kernel VM? It seems like a very urgent task to be completed before other things can be touched...
[17:29:32] Yes.
[17:29:36] Next question.
[17:29:59] DEBUG: Tab completion used
[17:30:07] Since newos is nowhere complete, why did we fork this soon?
[17:30:26] [M]-> Captcpu > is he willing to divulge any rough specifications on what the VM will and will not support? ie. integrated VM/FS cache and/or mmap/munmap?
[17:30:32] Good question. I am wondering that myself.
[17:30:44] and to add to it, he has to say... Why rename all newos methods to be BeOS compatible (thus making obos kernel undiffable with newos), when we could have provided an abstraction layer?
[17:30:48] *** x-gh0st (~webmaster@pD9E17AB9.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined the channel.
[17:31:01] *** DragonSoull (DragonSoul@195-23-147-35.nr.ip.pt) has joined the channel.
[17:31:23] Truth is, Travis et al have a lot going on in their lives and they haven't been making major changes to NewOS. If you go back even 4 months or so, there weren't a lot of check ins.
[17:31:41] *** ericools (~bob@zzz-064199233086.splitrock.net) has joined the channel.
[17:31:42] *** sean_dark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-122-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has joined the channel.
[17:31:48] And we are getting to the point where we need to spread our wings and fly.
[17:32:09] here's our next question from When do you join B.E.OS?
[17:32:32] *** AlienSoldier (AlienSoldi@ts1-136.f2431.quebectel.com) has joined the channel.
[17:32:42] and a secondary more serious question: What about binary compatibilty in the driver side?
[17:33:05] *** #obos_q&a Topic changed by Captcpu: OpenBeOS Question and Answer Sessions:
[17:33:14] *** Methedras (Olivier@bordeaux-2-a8-62-147-55-227.dial.proxad.
[17:33:19] As for the second part, we are doing the easy stuff ATM. There are bigger changes to be made that will make the question irrelevant.
[17:33:32] BlueOS - when will you join us?
[17:34:03] I don't see anything in our way to having driver level compatability. No bus_manager compatability, though.
[17:34:32] here's another one mike... is he willing to divulge any rough specifications on what the VM will and will not support? ie. integrated VM/FS cache and/or mmap/munmap?
[17:35:03] Yes to both of those features. I would not want to ship without.
[17:35:17] At least, that is the plan ATM.
[17:35:19] *** misza (misza@p93-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au) has joined the channel.
[17:35:36] Here's a nice one from: Why did you decide to start the OpenBeOS project?
[17:35:47] Insanity.
[17:36:21] *** DragonSoull (DragonSoul@195-23-147-35.nr.ip.pt) has quit IRC (Excess Flood)
[17:36:25] good answer
[17:36:41] *** DragonSoull (DragonSoul@195-23-147-35.nr.ip.pt) has joined the channel.
[17:36:52] but wait..there's more...
[17:37:09] Seriously - I had a project that I have been working on for years on BeOS. The short version of the story is that it is an object oriented paradigm in which every class is a process and every instance is a thread. It needs hyper fast messaging and process/thread swapping. No other OS will do that. Even R5 wasn't the best.
[17:37:44] *** nullify (nullify@pool-138-89-44-225.mad.east.verizon.net) has joined the channel.
[17:37:47] So, when the Palm announcement was made, I looked at Linux and the BSD's, but none of them were as fast and as easy to use. So I decided that BeOS must continue on.
[17:38:24] here's an interesting one from: the new font engine is going to be freetype right? when can we expect things to reach the stage where that is working? it's part of app_server, so we need to wait for app_server don't we?
[17:39:12] *** seandark (~sean_dark@195-250-190-150-ppp.kj.estpak.ee) has joined the channel.
[17:39:28] The font engine is indeed going to be freetype. Proto 6 is in development right now. I don't think that font handling is in it, though.
[17:40:36] *** grim (~graham@host62-7-92-48.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined the channel.
[17:40:44] Here's one: Why are people writing custom versions of basic CLI tools when they could be obtained from, eg, *BSD?
[17:41:59] *** misza (misza@p93-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au) has quit IRC ("Vision[0.8.4-0411]: i've been blurred!")
[17:42:03] Good question. Many of those custom CLI apps are little tiny things to help us develop. I doubt that they will be part of the final "release". But since we don't have bash, et al, yet, some little things to help us work and test make sense. The whole shell is scheduled to go out the door.
[17:42:19] *** misza (misza@p93-tnt5.syd.ihug.com.au) has joined the channel.
[17:43:17] How is the name choosing going? Will we stick with OpenBeOS (unlikely) or do we have a list of possible names already?
[17:43:59] We have been cutting the list of names down. Many that we submitted were not usable for one reason or another.
[17:44:03] *** SmallStepForMan (~chatzilla@c17827.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au) has joined the channel.
[17:44:14] It hasn't been our top priority, but it is getting there.
[17:44:24] *** mene (~vision@h237n1fls33o835.telia.com) has joined the channel.
[17:45:01] Here's an interesting one: question: who are you?
[17:45:03] you = captcpu
[17:45:09] may I answer Mike?
[17:45:17] sure
[17:46:07] I'm a web developer and college student from Las Vegas. I'm Kurtis Kopf's Business Partner in real life, the guy that's designing the new website for Open-Beos
[17:46:21] and I've agreed to help as I can
[17:47:09] besides that I'm a pretty normal guy.. I think..
[17:47:16] *** M_BeOS (M_BeOS@modem-1994.lynx.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined the channel.
[17:47:25] *** Fanskapet (~shoutingo@d212-151-145-37.swipnet.se) has joined the channel.
[17:47:35] Someone (forgive me for forgetting your name) wanted to know about the Game Kit, what's the status?
[17:48:05] Game Kit. Ahh. The poor, misbegotten step child.
[17:48:17] Honestly, I haven't heard from RobMed in months.
[17:48:46] GK is one of the items on the list for the poor unfortunate soul who signed on to be the "C++ code finisher".
[17:49:58] Here's one: I read a review of TuneTracker, wherein Dane Scott mentioned that obos would have a first release this year - ofcourse he is only speculating... but what is our (roughly) timeframe?
[17:50:25] Sigh. So many ways to answer this. There is the Commodore answer "when it is done".
[17:50:40] There is the Microsoft answer "Q3, 2002". There is the real answer...
[17:51:32] I very strongly feel that we could finish this by the end of 2002. It will mean some long nights and hard work. But I think that it could happen. What would it take?
[17:52:02] Some more *REAL* help. Some people willing to really dig in, grab some piece of work and ride it until it is done.
[17:52:25] Ooooh.. question about networking: Question: I've seen recently that the network stack is being moved into the kernel (if it hasn't already been done), and that sockets will be file descriptors. Does this mean that the net team borrowing ideas from BONE, and trying to recreate it? Has the problem with select been fixed yet?
[17:52:57] Where is David when I need him?
[17:53:17] DEBUG: Tab completion used
[17:53:24] [M]-> mphipps > select will depend on the new kernel
[17:53:25] DEBUG: Tab completion used
[17:53:31] [M]-> mphipps > it's not properly fixable on R5
[17:54:09] The networking stack, as it is today, runs as a kernel module. Is this BONE like? No. BONE had it truly built in, I think (I wasn't on the beta list).
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[17:55:16] The select issue is very easy, with source code. The OBOS kernel will handle select right, out of the gate. It remains to be seen if our networking stack will work properly with R5's kernel's select. I doubt it.
[17:55:26] *** devo (devo@89.Red-80-33-179.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined the channel.
[17:55:49] Here's we go...
[17:55:52] 1. I've heard requests to make server applications like mySQL run in OBOS. Are you doing any work in that direction? And if so don't you think that's outside of the "Desktop OS" focus of the original BeOS?
[17:56:12] *Excellent question*.
[17:56:50] *** doughboy (~mel@ip68-14-158-45.ri.ri.cox.net) has joined the channel.
[17:56:59] I figured
[17:57:51] mySQL would certainly be required on a server. But I can see, too, where it would be cool to have it on a client. For developers, for one thing. So I don't think that doing some small amount of work to make mySQL work is a bad thing. But that is different from major work or porting it ourselves.
[17:58:45] I ***STRONGLY*** believe in the focus on the desktop. BeOS wasn't, isn't and shouldn't be a server OS. Does that mean we shouldn't be able to run ftpd? No. But the *FOCUS* is on the desktop.
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[17:59:07] Here's an innocent question: Will R1 support localization or is this feature reserved for R2?
[18:00:28] R2. Localization is *VERY* important. And it *has* to be done right. And it really needs a whole ball of other features, like GUI with a layout engine.
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[18:01:38] and now we have hit the 19:00 hour
[18:01:43] Oficially starting =)
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[18:02:34] can i ask, 'What plans have been made to succeed in the areas Be failed in, the marketing, the lack of drivers, and apps? Without these we could be in for a repeat....'
[18:02:51] That is probably an FAQ.
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[18:03:36] Few, honestly. We are an OSS project. Marketing is not our job.
[18:03:46] *** FerryMan (~lbaydak@CPE00500482b408.cpe.net.cable.rogers.co
[18:04:17] I expect that OBOS will have a "RedHat". Some company to come along, package our source with a dozen CDs of apps and sell them.
[18:04:48] *** zathras (~dreid@host213-120-109-139.in-addr.btopenworld.c
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[18:05:28] Driver wise, we are helping and supporting anyone who is interested in writing them. Scott is doing an awesome job at BeDriver, and BU is working in that area, as well. I am hoping that with the shrinking of the hardware market, there will be fewer drivers to write.
[18:05:54] Here's one from: What are the GUI Interface plans for after version 1.x, are they in consideration now? I have some proposals, where should I send them, and in what format?
[18:06:41] Yes, we are thinking about a number of things.
[18:07:08] " I refer to API and features. "
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[18:07:33] There are a few proposals out there, now, for new looks and feels. I have certainly heard about Gonx enough times.
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[18:07:54] API wise, I haven't hear a whole lot. Any proposals, thoughts, ideas go to Glass Elevator.
[18:08:20] *** Olhado (~a@pool-141-157-186-38.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined the channel.
[18:08:52] here's a long one from: Do you agree that it would be better to clone the current UI (Yellow Tabs, same functions like double click a tab minimize it) and implement all those functions exactly, and provide an interface to skin the UI(e.g change position of buttons, implement light skinning) having the current UI as the default one because that is familiar to alot of users, Rather than to create an entirely different UI that may be infl
[18:11:12] For R1, there is no promise of skinning. The only "promised" feature is that it will look like and work like it does today.
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[18:12:10] Here's a good one from: As to help the community and OBOS in itself, does the OBOS team will suggest a line of hardware so that futur buying streamline the community to have easier driver transition in the first release R1.
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[18:12:40] Sigh. ATM, this is a tough one. We have the Matrox driver "in the bag", so for video, that is my only promise.
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[18:13:10] If the kernel boots on it today, it is likely that it will tomorrow, too.
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[18:13:59] As for other stuff (networking, sound, etc), we can't really say. If current R5 supports it, esp if the driver is publically available (i.e. source), we probably will, too.
[18:14:51] and now states "Out of the 214 listed programmers how many are contributing?"
[18:15:50] Not enough. In fact, we are reworking the web site to make it more representitive of those contributing. Let's put it this way - there are 32 people with CVS write access. And none of the team leaders are beating me up because they have to submit so many patches.
[18:16:10] OBOS is still a place where *1* person can make a huge difference.
[18:17:02] and... have you been contacted by any corporate/government/educational organizations that are interested in OpenBeOS?
[18:17:33] Yes. A few corporate.
[18:17:41] And we are working with those.
[18:17:50] this reminds me
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[18:18:26] *** Captcpu set mode +b *!*@microsoft.com
[18:18:30] *** el_d00d (el_d00d@c46159.upc-c.chello.nl) has joined the channel.
[18:18:30] there. that fixes that.
[18:18:32] anyway..
[18:19:35] here's one from: Question: Another tough one: Is true multiuser support in the future of OpenBeOS?
[18:19:36] Nice.
[18:19:56] It all depends on what you mean.
[18:20:01] For example -
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[18:20:41] If you mean "I want to log in and have my own email settings, home dir, etc", then that is an R2 thing.
[18:21:26] If you mean "I want OBOS to be just like my Linux box where I can have all of my 1337 friends log in and download warez", than no.
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[18:21:47] Here's a good one: I can't program, and neither can many of us... How can we help on other ways?
[18:22:27] Just like a kid at camp. Send money.
[18:22:39] Seriously, though, folks.
[18:23:14] One way is to volunteer at some of the other BeOS groups. Many of them are always looking for *GOOD* help.
[18:23:31] Translators can always mirror and translate our site (or others).
[18:23:39] Being helpful in the community.
[18:23:47] Being on IRC and answering questions.
[18:24:14] And also doing testing. We are (slowly) getting toward another release. We would like more people testing and looking at things.
[18:24:44] Here's one from the Dark Side of the Mac: Are there any plans for a PPC version of OBOS?
[18:25:03] When Steve Jobs calls me and asks for one.
[18:25:39] Seriously, though - I love PPC. I *want* to give my Mom an iMac and have it run OBOS.
[18:26:18] The question is time and resources. I can't justify dropping VM or other "generic" work for a port to a platform that doesn't really want us.
[18:26:28] *** Fuzz (~Steve@host-46-214.dsl.innercite.com) has joined the channel.
[18:27:16] If someone wants to do it, I am more than open to helping in any way. But I can't justify "assigning" people to it.
[18:27:33] and an interesting question from: When can we expect USB support and a nice media player?
[18:28:18] USB - Hopefully with R1. I have a good USB book and I have done some preliminary work on it.
[18:28:48] "Nice Media Player" is somewhat vague. I would have to ask what is wrong with R5's.
[18:28:57] DEBUG: Tab completion used
[18:29:07] Is anybody working on OBOS API documentation?
[18:29:08]
[18:29:24] sorry abou the repeat there at the end
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[18:30:30] OBOS API documentation has a team, yes. What tools? Not 100% sure. We are using doxygen inside the code.
[18:31:25] Here's one from down under: Well, OBOS has been going for just over 9 months now. How do you look back on the last 9 months, and is it according to expactations, subpar or way beyond expectations. BTW - good morning from Australia
[18:31:28] *** Methedras (Olivier@bordeaux-2-a8-62-147-55-227.dial.proxad.
[18:31:42] G'Day to you!
[18:32:09] The last 9 months have been unimaginable. I had no clue what I was in for.
[18:32:15] None of us did.
[18:32:49] It has been a fun trip, though. My only regrets are a) that I can't do it full time and b) the price that my family (and others) have paid.
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[18:33:35] *** Methedras (~Olivier@bordeaux-2-a8-62-147-55-227.dial.proxad
[18:33:43] and from: Will there be localized versions of OBOS, and can some of us help translating OBOS?
[18:35:05] el d00d, huh?
[18:36:05] Mike, Monolith has informed us that our spanish sucks.
[18:36:33] I didn't make that one up.
[18:36:35] but.. onto the next question: How's progress with the change of team structure going? Are the leads working on todo-list-type pages? IMO, it would need to be pretty fine grained to allow people to pick up a smallish task, work on it, submit it and be happy:-) Rather than TODO: Finish the kernel...
[18:36:58] *** el_d00d (el_d00d@c46159.upc-c.chello.nl) has quit IRC ()
[18:37:10] The team structure didn't really change all that much. Adding people to the teams changed. And that went pretty quick.
[18:37:42] Some TODO lists are done. Some need more work. If you want to work in an area and can't find the todo list, ask the team lead. They will help you.
[18:37:52] *** Deris (el_d00d@c46159.upc-c.chello.nl) has joined the channel.
[18:37:58] And if they don't have one, they will get sick of people asking...
[18:39:00] Here's a long winded one: currently there's a debate on wheter obos should be fully graphical or if it should have a text console as well just in case. It's sure that the second would be useful during kernel development, but it'd break the BeOS phylosophy... What's your opinion?
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[18:39:29] This is in reference, I think, to a conversation that we were having on the kernel list.
[18:40:49] For the average user, I think that the system should be just as it is today. I can see some value to a boot disk that is text based. For either emergencies or as a "download this, see what hardware it detects". But not for users to use every day.
[18:41:47] Are we going to have humorous API call's just like Be did?
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[18:42:14] I won't dictate that, either way. I certainly intend to extend the "is_computer_on" series in the kernel.
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[18:43:22] here's one from: Will there be a new OBOS update that will replace certain things (like apps and preferences)
[18:43:39] I think that this is asking about an automatic update.
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[18:43:50] Personally, I like that idea very much.
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[18:44:29] I know that there has been a lot of interest in the community about that. I would love for someone to write such a thing. Can't promise that it will be us.
[18:45:00] Programming, Oh my!: What about a BeIDE replacement ? (I suggest XEmacs >:-)
[18:45:29] E$*#()#*Q)(? Begone you heathen dog! There is aught but one True Editor: VI!
[18:45:30]
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[18:46:28] I put BeIDE in the same catagory as a number of other apps (browsers, mail clients, etc) - every distro should have one.
[18:46:40] But they are not necessarily the realm of the OS group.
[18:47:07] Will opentracker be moved into OpenBeOS CVS..and developed under OpenBeOS name?
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[18:47:47] I doubt it. That would "cut off" other groups that might want to use it.
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[18:48:50] here's one: What can we expect from the OBOS POSIX-layer ?
[18:49:34] Hopefully, functionality. I would *love* to see it work as well as R5, plus mmap and select.
[18:49:38] *** zephir (~zephir@hltp-a-104.resnet.purdue.edu) has joined the channel.
[18:50:04] cute. fuzzy. animals? Linux has Tux, BSD has their cute little demon. Should OpenBeOS have it's own cute animal? If so, what should it be?
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[18:51:20] OpenBeOS will not have a cute animal. Whether some other, different name has one or not is up in the air. The admin staff is about 50/50 split on whether it is a good idea or not. It would have to be a good one.
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[18:52:17] Question for mphipps How much time do you spend on OBOS? Do you work full time and then work on OBOS?
[18:52:26] About every waking minute.
[18:52:52] I do indeed have a full time job. (And a wife and 2 kids). I work on OBOS an average of 4 hours a day.
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[18:53:56] Packages? for Me?: are there any plans for a _standard_ package format for program distribution, possibly for R2?
[18:54:38] Plans? No. This is a veyr good idea. And I think that it ties in to the installer/updater mentioned earlier.
[18:54:49] (Pardon my dyslexia).
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[18:56:09] *** tialaramex (~soton@host217-34-64-220.in-addr.btopenworld.com
[18:56:25] Cash? Money?: How configurable will the VM and DiskCache be for users? Example I would love to devote 512K to just the DiskCache.
[18:56:37] Ideally, not at all.
[18:57:22] Very briefly, the ideal VM/cache system would need no tuning and would always have the information you want to access in ram.
[18:58:09] I know that we won't be *ideal*, but very good would be nice. I would like to think that mundane details like disk cache and VM size would be something that the OS could handle on its own.
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[18:59:26] Will you release a commercial version of OBOS (for companies), so that you can afford OBOS-update servers or such?
[18:59:39] =) sorry!
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[19:00:22] I think that the question here is really "How will you afford to run OBOS without any money?"
[19:00:40] Part of the answer is that we will cross that bridge when we come to it.
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[19:01:04] Part of the answer is that I am hoping that distro makers see good reason to "give back to the community".
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[19:02:38] What about firewalls? Do people have to code their own firewalling software (like in windows 9x) or will the firewalling be built into the kernel or the net_server? (more like Linux)
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[19:04:00] When you say firewall, you could mean a couple of things. BeOS, by default, had all of the ports closed. Now, I am not a security guru, but that seems very secure to me.
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[19:05:42] does he aim to try and get market share in the desktop arena, taking from MS, or does he plan on creating the best possible OS, with no compromises made for the less technologically-capable folks that make up the general public?
[19:06:46] This is really a marketing question. Think about Linux for a moment. We are more like Linux (the organization) than Be. I am not here to change the world, necessarily.
[19:06:58] I am not here to sell N boxes per year.
[19:07:34] *** Obelisk][450 (obos@mhcpm1-40.xinu.com) has joined the channel.
[19:07:47] I am here to make an OS that I want to run and that you want to run. But I also want to make it work for my Mom (a non-techie). I don't believe that these two things are mutually exclusibe.
[19:07:52] (exclusive)
[19:09:14] and now.. for the last question for this session.
[19:09:16] Is there a timetable for an official OBOS name so we can start grabbing up domain names?
[19:10:05] I am assuming you mean "to help out the project".
[19:10:54] I just got some mail about this, actually. Hopefully, we will have an annoucement of where the name issue is going soon...
[19:11:18] Folks - this has been a lot of fun.
[19:11:49] I appreciate you all taking time out to come here. I do have to go, though.
[19:11:53] I would also like to express the many private messages I've recieved thanking Mike and his team for all the hard work they have put in.
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[19:12:16] I think that we will probably do this either weekly or every other week.
[19:12:21] *** Olhado (~a@pool-141-157-186-38.bos.east.verizon.net) has quit IRC ()
[19:12:49] We will get the logs posted shortly...
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[19:13:11] Bye, all! Thanks again!
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[19:13:19] *** Matzon (BrianMatzo@80.197.154.22) has quit IRC ("Vis nakke sved")
[19:13:27] And that ladies and gentleman is the end of the session. Thanks for Attending!
The brakes are hard on your feet. And don't order that big order of ribs at the drive-thru or it will tip over...
What happens to your "choice" when all the bank use Passport? There aren't as many banks as there used to be and an oligopoly is nearly as effective as a monopoly. The RIAA wouldn't be an issue if there were viable music labels that didn't participate in it. An oligopoly can be ad hoc as well without any organizational structure -- I dare say we all object to crazy ATM fees (weren't ATMs supposed to save the bank money?) but we all end up paying them.
If you want tree profiling (i.e. information about function and child performence) then Rational Quantify is a reasonable alternative to the crap profiler that comes with MSDev.
If you want a flat profiler or need to analyze the cost of specific low level operations then you MUST get Intel VTune.
From the article: The accompanying CD-ROM also comes with some neat stuff, like Tomcat, Jakarta and Xerces, and trial versions of WebSphere and DB2. As an added bonus, the code within has been tested on both Windows and Linux.
So in other words, the CD has a bunch of (almost certainly) out of date versions of Open Source software in order to drive the price up. Vote with you dollars -- don't buy books with CDs!
Content about things like WSDL is also likely out of date by the time it is published.
I'd say there are probably a lot of good online tutorials on these topics that are probably more up to date.
It's from a Simpsons episode entitled "The Computer Wore Menace Shoes" in which Homer "knows too much" and gets transported to an island which is a spoof of "The Prisoner" -- it even has a guest voice of Patrick McGoohan in it as one of the other prisoners.
They must be using Snort for intrusion detection.
...
Snif snif
Well I said I didn't care about it. First Amendment, blah blah blah.
If I were the executive producer of a television show, and there was a committee of people who recognize excellence in television, I would find it insulting that my show isn't even given the opportunity to compete.
True, but the Emmy's ain't it. They don't recognize excellence in television. The recognition of industry slimeballs? An odd facination people have with ranking art to find out which is the "best"? The media whores (Leeza Gibbons, I'm looking your way) who harp over how "robbed" someone was. And they have so many "award" shows now that it's harder not to win one.
If you want to appreciate it, watch it.
What next, are we going to get in a unroar when the grammy's come out too? There are things worth getting worked up about and things (like say award shows) that I could not give a crap ass about.
And yes I've seen buffy and (this is just my opinion) it sucks ass...
We now return you to your regularly scheduled slashdot.
I would think in the wake of 9/11 that the government would be more wary of giving permission for what is essentially a guided missile. Any problems in that area?
I think it has something to do with Hollywood being a bunch of clueless old hacks. Coming up with good ideas is (evidently) hard so everyone says "Hey alot of people like that book, lets make a movie of it but we'll have to take a bunch of stuff out and/or change the ending to make it work".
The other lame idea factory is to take a subculture and then do a movie "about" it but adding bank robbers and/or a love interest to make it accesible to the common man.
What do you want them to do, actually get people to come up with original ideas to create a movie around?
The problem that I had always heard about was that when the VCR broke, you needed to buy a new TV (nobody gets anything repaired these days...) or vice versa.
A few years back there was a big push to have copier / scanner / fax machine. Those didn't sell well either. I'm also reminded of looking at a digital camera for my handspring. At some point I realized that for 1/2 the price of the handspring plugin I could get an actual digital camera of better quality.
But to each his own...
But what happens when you want the new XBox III -- time for a new PVR I guess. Sounds like the TV + VCR combo that everyone hates...
''...I have crippling arthritis in my index fingers. I got it in 1979 from Space Invaders.''-Groundskeeper Willie
''Yeah, that was a pretty addictive video game.''-Chief Wiggum
''Video game?''-Groundskeeper Willie
Like slashdot, they post the same stories again and again...
What do they care, it's your tax dollars!
No one's going to arrest Spielberg for being original or different...
Krusty: Do we really want to live in a world without television? I think the living would envy the dead!
Yeah, shoddy workmanship on my part -- essentially there should be a big ! around the whole bullet point list.
doh...
If you lived in Tunguska in 1908 you probably wouldn't be so glib.
But I agree, worrying about it is useless... All the indignation seems to ignore the following two facts:
1) If the gub'ment did know about it, they would tell us.
2) There is anything they could do about it if they knew about it. Morgan Freeman ain't President and Bruce Willis ain't going to save you folks!
As an astronomer friend of mine used to say -- "If there was an asteroid heading for the earth why would they tell us?".