Buffy Staked Again By Emmys

jonerik writes "Despite six witty, intelligent seasons, 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' has never been able to catch a break from the folks at the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences who vote on the annual Emmy Awards, with the show's nine nominations to date (with no wins) being mostly in technical categories. And, according to this piece from E! Online, when the ballots for this year's Emmy nominations were sent out in early June, this season's musical tour de force, 'Once More With Feeling,' was inexplicably left out of list of shows eligible for the Outstanding Writing in a Drama Series catefory. The academy has attempted to correct its error by sending out postcards to Emmy voters informing them that they can, in fact, vote for the episode, but the fix is probably too little, too late. According to awards-show expert Tom O'Neil, 'It entailed such extraordinary effort that it was unlikely the voters would do it even if they loved the episode. So it definitely curses its chances.' If you missed it the first time around, 'Once More With Feeling' will be re-run tomorrow evening at 8pm eastern time on UPN."

Comments

Geez... Buffy Rocks!!

[eyegor]

I think the problem (at least one of them, anyway) is that it's not "serious" enough. Given the other drek that wins constantly, I'm not sure being "serious" is such a good thing.

Re:Geez... Buffy Rocks!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Look what happened to Millenium. Two or three seasons on the air before it got the axe. That show was nothing but serious.

Re:Geez... Buffy Rocks!!

[puckhead]

What is this thing called Buffy?

Re:Geez... Buffy Rocks!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's real problem is that it sucked after the first two episodes!!!!

Re:Geez... Buffy Rocks!!

[eaolson]

I think the problem (at least one of them, anyway) is that it's not "serious" enough. Given the other drek that wins constantly, I'm not sure being "serious" is such a good thing.

The show is plenty serious. It's dealt the usual things you'd expect in a show with teens as the main characters: sex, the first boyfriend/girlfriend, cliques in schools, growing up, etc. Then it moved on to the really serious stuff: the death of a parent, the death of a friend, violence in schools, parental abuse, gay teens, drug use, rape, and that's just off the top of my head.

The problem is that the show is neither entirely a drama or entirely a comedy. That and the whole vampire/fantasy element means it will never be taken seriously by the Hollywood machine.

Which is a shame, quite frankly. Others may disagree, but Hush (which was entirely without dialog for roughly half an hour) was one of the most creative things I've ever seen on television, bar none.

So Sad

[stoolpigeon]

.. Not that they haven't been nominated, but that this made the front page.

I laughed, then I cried. Now I'm laughing and crying at the same time.

.

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

Conspiracy Theorists Unite! I bet there is a worldwide effort to put down Buffy.

I mean come on, it's on WB isn't it? What do you expect? This would be like taking 90% of the stuff on Fox 10 years ago serious.

But Buffy does win the anti-terrorism award.

[tcd004]

Check out this CSIS report

Then Read this interview with Tom Cruise, sorta.

tcd004

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

it's on UPN now. even worse. but the musical episode really was good. especially because there was a reason for them bursting into song, unlike most musicals where they do it spontaneously for no reason relating to the plot.

Rerun is edited

[gwernol]

The rerun of Once More With Feeling is defintely worth catching, but be warned that this is a cut down episode. The full length episode is 8 minutes longer than the standard "1 hour" slot, and it was announced at the time of the original showing that future airings would be of a much shorter version without the additional 8 minutes of footage.

I believe you'll have to wait for the Season 6 DVD to be published before you can see the full episode again.

Re:Rerun is edited

[cancrman]

If you're lucky enough to subscribe to Daily Variety magazine you might have gotten a copy. Fox included a DVD of "OMWF" in an issue about a month or so ago. The DVD does contain the full 'Director's Cut' of the ep.

Copies on eBay range from $50-$200. Good luck and watch out for VCDs

Pete

Re:Rerun is edited

[El_Nofx]

Ya, that one wasn't too bad, but I must say that season 6 as a whole was just too "Soap Operay" for me and everyone else I know that is a fan. My girlfriend and I just bought season 2 on DVD and that was really good. Up to season 5 it was good, 6 kinda stunk. They only have one more season then it is gone, and they decided to make Britney Spears a Demon in a few episodes next year. A plus I guess, more T and A to watch! Maybe Willow will kick the wica crap.

Re:Rerun is edited

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire episode was available on the 'net before it even aired in the U.S.

Re:Rerun is edited

[Steev]

Anybody know what exactly is cut out of this version? 8 minutes seems like a lot.

Re:Rerun is edited

[eric6]

i don't remember every thing that was cut out. however, one (fairly important) part was the end of the first song that the Scoobys sing together, that alludes to Buddy not caring so much about being back alive. I think the long version was pretty tight as it was. cutting out 8 minutes must have been rough.

Re:Rerun is edited

[NumberSyx]

I have both the long and short version on my TiVo, they cut out 8 of the 10 minutes of real dialog.

Re:Rerun is edited

[ttyRazor]

the whole "Britney Spears a Demon" is a perennial rumor that has been repeatedly debunked yet keeps getting dug up and reported as truth by entertainment news hacks. Not gonna happen.

Re:Rerun is edited

[cmarkn]

A big chunk of what was cut out was Dawn's dance right before Sweet's song. Doesn't hurt the storytelling any, but the story is about dancing.

In fact, nothing that was cut is critical to the story, it's all mood stuff.

Re:Rerun is edited

[Anonymous Coward]

The main cuts are:
- The overture -- people bustling around upstairs getting ready for the day while Buffy lies in bed listening to her alarm clock ring.
- Buffy's "It doesn't matter" verse from "I've Got a Theory"
- A verse from Spike's "Rest in Peace"
- Dawn's dance
- a verse from "Walk Through the Fire"

Various and sundry bits of dialog were also cut here and there.

Re:Rerun is edited

[Citizen of Earth]

They also cut pretty much every establishing shot.

Re:Rerun is edited

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't get it cause you not smart enough. alt.binaries.multimedia.buffy-v-slayer
Muffle's encoding for VCD is killer. They repost episodes that run that day. Check it out if you have broadband. If not, try anyways they do 56k post as well.
Shout out to the entire group there.

This isn't a sig it's my fscking asp on AOL.

Re:Rerun is edited

[/Idiot\]

Damn, Dawn is quite a mover in that episode.

Anyone else suprised at the set of pipes Tara has in her too?

Re:Rerun is edited

[Felius]

Yes, very and pleasantly. She floored me.

Her short duet with with Giles (at the end of his solo) was great too.

Re:Rerun is edited

[chorder]

Just get it off of KaZaA. not that there's anything right with that...

Re:Rerun is edited

[LMacG]

She (Tara, i.e. Amber Berson) provides backing vox on a couple tracks of Anthony Stweart Head's recent CD "Music For Elevators." (Actually, it's ASH and George Sarah). James Marsters (Spike) is on a track as well.

Re:Rerun is edited

[Ioldanach]

Ya, that one wasn't too bad, but I must say that season 6 as a whole was just too "Soap Operay" for me and everyone else I know that is a fan.

I'd have to generally agree. The first 5 seasons were good, Once More With Feeling was a hilarious and awesome episode, as Buffy goes, but the entire rest of the season was garbage. To the point where my wife, who's a huge, avid fan, actually began forgetting to tape episodes near the end. (Though we did get the whole OMWF on video.) (yeah, I know, I don't own a PVR. bad geek. bad. bad geek.) Oh, and as far as the "wicca crap" as you mention it goes... I was cheering by the time she started... well... ok, if I say anything more it'll be spoilers to the people who never got around to seeing the last couple episodes, but regardless, I personally think black-eyed Willow rocks. :)

Re:Rerun is edited

[foobar104]

The first 5 seasons were good, Once More With Feeling was a hilarious and awesome episode, as Buffy goes, but the entire rest of the season was garbage.

I love it that our standards are so high. We call it "garbage" when it's still one of the very best shows on television. Season 6 sucked only in comparison to the previous 5. I'll stack the worst episode of season 6 up against the best episode of practically any other series any day.

Re:Rerun is edited

[foobar104]

(Though we did get the whole OMWF on video.) (yeah, I know, I don't own a PVR. bad geek. bad. bad geek.)

Heh. I told my TiVo to save OMWF "until I delete." It's been on there, at the bottom of my "now playing" list, since last November.

Chip in my head

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, I'm a vampire (with a soul now) with a chip in my head. Could one of you fine Slashdot fellows please do me a favor and remove it? Now that I have a soul, I believe I'll be okay without it.

Sincerely,
Spike... err, William

Re:Chip in my head

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes let's remove it. You are a fine replacement for Angel.

How long till Boreanaz sues us?

This season was terrible!

[bradlauster]

Are you kidding ???

The last season of Buffy was terrible! It was all about the characters moping around, making messes of thier lives.

What happened to the ass-kicking goodness that I've come love, nay expect?

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently the entire point of the season flew right over your head. You should rewatch the finale and see if you pick up on it.

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

this season was terrible and some of the cast members (I believe SMG) mentioned they kind of felt that way as well but were looking foward to next season when things are supposed to get back to the way they were.
with giles gone and the stupid nerd kids being the primary villian as well as a pussified spike, the show was lacking in many areas...
oh course that's just my opinion i could be wrong...

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

Because after all, it was so deep...

Re:This season was terrible!

[bradlauster]

Uh, no. I got the point which, for those who didn't watch, was: Friends and family are what matters most.

While that's quaint and all, it's not why I watch Buffy. I don't watch a show about girls who kill daemons (heh) for the "very special episodes" I watch it for the ass-kicking, super-slam spectacular, damnit!

Re:This season was terrible!

[cicatrix1]

Just the last? *sigh*

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

It was more than that though. It was about life being worth living and not just something you suffer through. At the start of the season, Buffy hated being alive, and at the end, she loved it. I don't see the problem with giving characters some actual depth. I want more than "Buffy kicks ass, Willow is smart, and Xander is sensitive."

Re:This season was terrible!

[Golias]

While that's quaint and all, it's not why I watch Buffy. I don't watch a show about girls who kill daemons (heh) for the "very special episodes" I watch it for the ass-kicking, super-slam spectacular, damnit!

Except Buffy was never simply about the ass-kicking. Buffy is a show for people who actually want an interesting story.

If all you want to watch is sexy girls in fights with no plot, there's always Dark Angel, Sheena, VIP, Relic Hunter, or any of a dozen other shitty programs which will appeal to your hormone-driven sensibilities. Clearly you are not part of the target audience for Buffy. Go watch Xena re-runs, and leave us alone.

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer Willow:smart, Buffy:kick ass, Xander:sensitive to Buffy:ANGST, Dawn:ANGST, Willow:ANGST(PS DRUGS R BAD!!!), Xander:ANGST, Spike:ANGST, well, you get the idea.

Re:This season was terrible!

[bradlauster]

True. I was exagerating to make my point.

I do appreciate the story line, though I still think this season sucked - primarily because of the lame story.

I got the feeling that when Buffy shifted from the WB to UPN, they hired a slew of new writers and told them something like, "Ok, you have a week to write the next season of Buffy."

Now that I think about it, I guess that's to be expected. This IS UPN we're talking about.

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought this season was just very different. Not worse. In fact, I enjoyed it a lot... a lot of it resonated. A lot of stuff built up that needed to be dealt with, just like happens in real life sometimes, and now that it's dealt with, we can move on into the next season with a cleaner slate.

Re:This season was terrible!

[teraph]

Most of the writing staff stayed the same. The big difference is that Joss Whedon had more projects and couldn't offer as much hands-on time to the show. Generally, the best stuff in a season is done by him.

I thought the season was pretty good, but it was below average. They let it get out of control with how dark it got, and the reduction in humor affected the overall emotional arc. A few episodes really damaged the season (the return of Riley, and the "Doublemeat Palace" being the most notable). I'm a big fan of dark stories, but the season hit that feeling too much, without letting up. This is something the writers realized in hindsight:

Early on, the moderator asked Joss 'what do you say to people's criticism that this season was too depressing, too dark?'

Joss thinks for a minute, then responds, "Oops?" Which I loved!

Marti then jumped in to talk about how while they knew they wanted to have the evil Willow storyline, and they wanted the season to be about facing the real world without the safety net of parents/living at home, and they also wanted to show how some relationships (Buffy/Spike) can be unhealthy, they didn't quite realize that they were going to wind up doing it all together and how that would come across (namely dark and extremely depressing). At one point Joss joked 'Yeah, next season we're going to advertise it as: Watch Buffy this season! Not every character wants to die!'

Source [Slipstream BBS: Pt. 6 of jillandr's report]

Hopefully that realization will help next season.

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

Buffy's target audience is teenagers and females up to age 35. Are you in that audience? The mindless zealotry of your positions certainly seem to indicate it.

Re:This season was terrible!

[dervish121]

Crap; I hope they actually realize that the darkness wasn't really the problem; after all, a series that focused on the main characters lover turning into a homicidal maniac, then being cured just before she had to send him to hell isn't exactly waltzing in the sunshine. This season was mostly awful because, while they presented the plot as described, they presented it like they cribbed everything from "Screenwriting for Dummies". The dialogue was too often cringe worthy, the plot developed with nearly as much subtlity as a bowling ball in the head (Willow's descent into drug^h^h^h^h magic addiction could've been plucked word for word from an after school special).

All that being said, a second watching is bringing me around a bit; they suffered a lot from putting the worst episodes of the season at the start and end of breaks. For example, the finale, which devolved into a cliche slinging pile of crap, or the "alternate universe" episode, which is an indication of creative bancruptcy on par with a holodeck episode. It's a bit unfortunate, because if the quality of the writing had've been up to Buffy standards, it would've been an amazing season.

Still, if all else fails, and season 7 dissapoints as much as season 6, it's always possible to ignore everything else and consider season 5 the end (even if they get back up to Buffy quality, can they ever end the series as well as Season 5 would've ended it?).

Of course, killing off the only chick who didn't look like a high-school biology skeleton wrapped in skin didn't exactly give me a sunny outlook on the show.

Re:This season was terrible!

[teraph]

I think the darkness was a big part of the problem. Not because it was dark, but because there wasn't enough "light" to act as a contrast. In short, they took themselves too seriously. Which, I think, is why some of the stuff comes off like an after-school special. Those always took themselves much too seriously.

Some of the best serious moments in the show worked because there was humor tied to it. I would have killed for something like:

Xander: "I hate to sound like an after-school special, but you need help."

That would have lightened the trite nature of many addiction stories (and maybe that kind of attitude could have punched up the dialogue, which, I agree, was suffering from severe Afterschoolitis).

Unfortunately, the only character that ever really talked about the addiction in anything other than accusing tones was Willow. Even then, it was taken too seriously.

I didn't mind the "alternate universe" episode. My only issues with it were the continuity error (she was supposedly commited in the past, but it is never referenced in the early seasons when Buffy mentions vampires to her mother), and the end shot in the asylum. That shot was what made it cliche for me. It implied that maybe the institution was reality, which is the trap all those "alternate universe" plots seem unable to escape. They have to go for the Outer Limits predictable twist. (At least it was better written than most Outer Limits episodes.)

I actually like the finale (although I think they made two episodes out of one-and-a-half episodes). I thought it had a better emotional resonance than most "I love you" endings. I almost walked out of the Matrix when Trinity said it, but I was rooted when Xander did.

In all, Season 6 lacked the overall quality of previous seasons. Even the worst episode from any of the other seasons has nothing on "Doublemeat Palace" or the return of Riley. But the high points made up for it ("Dead Things" - where Buffy thinks she killed Warren's ex - made up for "Doublemeat Palace").

I have high hopes for season 7. To avoid being disappointed, I'm using the worst of season 6 as my basis for comparison. I'll wait until later to compare it to "The Body" or "Hush".

Re:This season was terrible!

[dervish121]

I actually enjoyed Doublemeat; it flirted with Buffy humor, and I thought played the whole superhero-with-a-day-job thing well within the Buffy formula; bonus points for an evil snake thing and the instructional video scene. The finale was definately too little stretched out (the whole season really had that feel, going from a season 6 episode to almost anything from a previous season shows a surprising increase in stuff actually happening), and just wasn't the climax that Villains deserved. Plus, Buffy's "all the things I can show you" actually got me heckling (what, dank crypts and graveyards? Then maybe we can swing by the slaughterhouse on the way home.).

I have high hopes for season 7. To avoid being disappointed, I'm using the worst of season 6 as my basis for comparison. I'll wait until later to compare it to "The Body" or "Hush".

Well, they stand alone, anyway (and a very bad move to make a weak start look even worse by putting on Hush and The Body during the first break). I'm staying optimistically skeptical for season 7, though I can't see a Dawn as pseudo-slayer plotline going anywhere but down.

Re:This season was terrible!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh, that was the POINT of the season.

The only thing I disliked about the season was that I thought the two-hour season finale was horribly edited/cut, or acted for the most part (there were some good scenes, oddly, mostly those where Giles was present).

FYI...

[Apiakun]

Vampires aren't real, and even if they were, it wouldn't be news for nerds, but news for goths. And last I checked, this is slashdot, not slashgoth (down, not across). :)

Re:FYI...

[dattaway]

Uh oh, slashgoth just got slashdotted.

The undead are now dead.

Re:FYI...

[unicron]

No kidding. I can completely vision how the brainstorming for this show went down:

Network Exec: "Alright, we take Melrose Place, make the girls slightly uglier, the stunts better, and we put it on a network so unbelievably bad that Chia Pet documentaries garner 30% of it's total viewing audience, and bam, instant gold..well, at least silver, probably copper. Maybe we need something else."

Intern Worm: "Lesbians sir. Feminine, non-political agenda lesbians."

Network Exec: "It's slightly more of an imagination stretch than vampires, but sure, what the hell."

Re:FYI...

[Leven Valera]

Vampires aren't real, and even if they were, it wouldn't be news for nerds, but news for goths.

FYI, most /. readers (myself included) want to inseminate Sarah Michelle Geller, and that's why it's news.

Cheers,
LV

Re:FYI...

[Anonymous Coward]

unicron, ypu llama aoler! You live again, I see!

Re:FYI...

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer the redhead myself. Geller's nose would poke out my eye, or crush my nut.

Then there's always some gang bang action on the little girl.

Re:FYI...

[unicron]

Uh, yeah.

Re:FYI...

[Anonymous Coward]

Speak for yourself. I want to inseminate Xander. And Spike. Okay, and if I'm drunk, maybe Andrew too (if only he'd stop fixating on Warren, dammit!)

Re:FYI...

[Anonymous Coward]

How wrong you are. Nerds do not have real girl friends and Buffy is certainly attractive enough for the lonely geek that needs the artificial alternative. A comely young woman who can hold her own on the subway is clearly an execellent design and only a nerd would be impressed with the fine balance of feminine morphology/pulchritude and combat utilty. The ultimate gadget.It is probably why I found female replicants so attactive....:-)

Re:FYI...

[Anonymous Coward]

Intern Worm: "Lesbians sir. Feminine, non-political agenda lesbians."

Network Exec: "It's slightly more of an imagination stretch than vampires, but sure, what the hell."

Hey, it worked for Xena.

Re:FYI...

[Ludotech]

For your information, a lot of geeks and nerds love BtVS, I personally place it above Star-Trek (any version/spin-off) as one of my favourite TV show of all time.

Re:FYI...

[SN74S181]

They probably took down the site as a defensive gesture.

All kinds of us who don't observe the dress code would have tracked in reality on the black velvet carpeting.

Re:FYI...

[ajs]

Interestingly, the WB was very tentative about the show, and series creator Joss Whedon has made the point that that may have helped rather than hurt. Having to squeeze everything he could out of a small budget in the early days made the show do things like bring in local bands for club scenes, get creative with the few sets they had (I've never seen a single hallway used so many ways :)

I can really see this when I look at Angel. A good show with all of the creativity of Buffy, but because it started off with more resources you can feel the impact on the creativity. It's like Lucas and the new Star Wars movies in a way....

boooooring

[Tompie]

Do we care???? What are we??? nerds???

haha, i love those sarcastics /. posts

[flipsaw]

don't you guys love it when the ./ crew posts an obvious joke of a submission? as if buffy should get an emmy, that's hilarious. you guys are funny.

Re:haha, i love those sarcastics /. posts

[Anonymous Coward]

Go watch season 5's "The Body", and after you've given your mommy a hug come crawling back and try saying that again.

Inexplicable?

[clontzman]

I do not think the word "inexplicable" means what CmdrTaco thinks it means.

Re:Inexplicable?

[KingKire64]

Drama Series catefory

Since when did they add Cateforys?

Re:Inexplicable?

[Citizen of Earth]

I do not think the word "inexplicable" means what CmdrTaco thinks it means.

Inconceivable!

Re:Inexplicable?

[Anonymous Coward]

"incapable of being explained, interpreted, or accounted for"

Sounds okay to me.

Re:Inexplicable?

[/Idiot\]

I think it means more than "catefory" does :-)

You think that's unfair? How about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

... Jason Alexander (George Costanza on Seinfeld) has always been ignored too. If one deserves an emmy, it's him.

Re:You think that's unfair? How about this...

[phungus]

Yeah, he has convinced me to go to KFC and buy a bucket of Extra Crispy Wings at least 94 times this year.

Re:You think that's unfair? How about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

And Married With Children's Ed O'Neill never won one for his portrayal of Al Bundy, Everyman Loser.

Re:You think that's unfair? How about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, since the Emmys are about giving awards to talentless morons, he SHOULD win.

Re:You think that's unfair? How about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

True that.. i like George

News, not opinion please

[John_McKee]

How exactly is this news? I am sure that many of you find Buffy to be a great show. There are many shows that I find to be great that have not won Emmys. Unless you are going to run a story on every show snubbed by the Emmys, please do not post this as news, as this is pure opinion that Buffy wss unfairly not chosen for the emmy.

Re:News, not opinion please

[Anonvmous Coward]

Just think, if articles like the one about Buffy can attract women to Slashdot, it could double it's user base! Heh.

Re:News, not opinion please

[Sancho]

Well for starters, they can post whatever they please. Essentially this is a site for Taco and a few others to post things they find intersting, and most of what they're interested in is "nerdy."

Second, there is a good reason for this story, that being that people were told they could vote for this show, but had to jump through hoops to do so. It's a classic example of The Man keeping down what they don't like, sorta like stopping black voters from getting to the ballot boxes in Florida.

Re:News, not opinion please

[RatFink100]

It's news because there was a ballot foul-up.

Re:News, not opinion please

[MemeRot]

No, I think it's more like the Nazis killing the Jews. Or maybe it's like priests raping little boys. Or the dark god Cthulu eating the world. Yeah, it's exactly like that.

hmm

[nomadic]

Probably because it's just not as good as a lot of people seem to think it is.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

It IS that good, and there are a lot of critics out there that agree. The only real problem is that its stuck in that sector of TV euphamistically known as "genre" (sci-fi, fantasy, etc.), which nobody in the average emmy voter's age bracket seems capable of taking seriously no matter how good.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

my sentiments exactly. 'Good' among the
slashdot crowd ain't exactly Shakespeare ...

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah, Buffy rocks, Allison Hannigan is a hottie, shut up!

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's quite good. One of the better written shows on television. The dialog is outstanding and the characters are written well and consistently. The real problem is the subject matter isn't something that many people would ever take seriously. That and the fact that the shows approach to consistency makes it almost impossible for you to show up in season 4 or 5 and be able to get into what's going on.

I've read where the writers and producers have joked that they could do a nude episode and would probably only deviate from their typical ratings share by a few points. Even this well promoted musical episode didn't very too far from their typical audience draw.

The thing is Buffy does well but not great and it can't do any better in the ratings because it's a hard show to jump into without knowing what's come before.

Still it's some of the best television out there if you can get into it.

Slashdot

[Bouncings]

Slashdot has hit a new low by announcing news that didn't happen. And in related news, Star Wars Episode 2 will not be nominated for best picture. Sorry to let you all down in advance. ;-) </bitch>

Dare I say, who cares about shows on the WB and why is this a headline?

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It's some sort of marketing deal. Slashdot hypes the show which is to be rebroadcast tomorrow night, and Malda gets some sort of stuffed Buffy doll or whatnot.

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Dare I say, you're a moron? Buffy isn't even on WB! It moved to UPN last year. Did you actually read the article? Notice the "UPN" at the end.

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Did someone just get called a moron for not knowing what network Buffy the Vampire Slayer was moved to last year?

Re:Slashdot

[Anonvmous Coward]

Don't get shitty over somebody getting WB and UPN confused. Niether network is very distinct, they're very easy to confuse. It's kind of like comparing dog poop and cat poop. At a glance, they are virtually indistinguishable. Both are poop, but they have sublte differences in shape.

Fox would be like rabbit poop because it's round and easily identifiable.

Re:Slashdot

[krow]

What sort of doll are we talking about?

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It was clearly written out which network it was on. If you can't atleast read the Slashdot article, you shouldn't bother commenting on it.

Anyway, I've never in my life gotten UPN and WB confused. Different stations, different programs. UPN: Buffy, Enterprise, Smackdown. WB: Angel, Smallville, Charmed.

Re:Slashdot

[Anonvmous Coward]

"It was clearly written out which network it was on. If you can't atleast read the Slashdot article, you shouldn't bother commenting on it."

My point was that even if it's written in the article, so what? It's not worth getting hostile about. Geez, this is even't the type of thing that'd show up in Trivial Pursuit.

CHILL. Some of us don't dedicate our lives to knowing what shows are on what networks. That's what Tivo finds out for us.

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean he gets to stuff Buffy the doll.

Re:Slashdot

[NanoGator]

"Dare I say, you're a moron? Buffy isn't even on WB! It moved to UPN last year."

Dude, you are seriously overreacting. I don't think knowing the difference between UPN and WB will suddenly result in an invitation to Mensa.

Re:Slashdot

[Erasmus Darwin]

"Dare I say, who cares about shows on the WB and why is this a headline?"

Any show that uses ultra-geeks as pseudo-villains/comic relief is definite Slashdot material. I mean how often on TV do you see people pause during a game of D&D to decide to take over the world? When was the last time you saw someone threatened with the destruction of a rare Boba Fett figure as a means of coercion?

There's some hilarious, geek-centric humor in the show. The problem is that too many people automatically write it off has just generic horror/comedy/pretty girls.

Re:Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but the point is well made...READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE POSTING RESPONSES...otherwise, you are only as good as a blind man in a circus!

Re:Slashdot

[SN74S181]

It isn't the slashdot we used to know, is it?

Re:Slashdot

[NanoGator]

Just because he got the two flubbed doesn't mean he read the article. As a matter of fact, it was pointed out that Buffy used to be on another network. What's going to weigh more in your memory: Watching it on a network or reading about it in an article.

Seriously, don't be a dork about it. He got a detail wrong. So what? "Oh he mixed up two indistinct networks, he must not have read the article."

That's about the biggest judgement you can make with the least pertinent information.

Re:Wow...

[Cheesy Fool]

Wasn't exactly a great reason/plot though.

Moderators please leave this forum

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing intelligent in this forum.
Please waste you mod points elsewhere.

News for nerds, my ass. Taco is still recovering from
the bassist for the Who dying.

Once More, With Feeling, huh?

[SN74S181]

Wow. What a coincidence that this story pops up, and surprise, the episode in question just happens to be scheduled to broadcast again tomorrow night.

This isn't some sort of tie-in deal is it?

Re:Tension increases between US and Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope so! People in the United States will have to move north if the whole global warming thing keeps up. Killing the Canadians off and taking their last is an important first step.

Run it again next season...

[Caradoc]

They could always run it again next season, retitling it as "Once More (AGAIN!) With Feeling, Take Two."

I never could understand the attraction some people hold for the whole Buffy continuum...

Re:Run it again next season...

[cicatrix1]

They should pass it to capcom for the re-naming...

Super Hyper Once More With Feeling Alpha Ultra 2 Omega

Re:Run it again next season...

[Anonymous Coward]

They want to believe in vampires. Therefore, if vampires are real, then maybe they, too, will be pretty and rich on e day.

Re:Run it again next season...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I avoided Buffy for years. Partly due to time constraints (college, med school, etc.). And thought it was sorta stupid (saw some of the promo shows, sat through an early episode). I didn't see much in it.

For some reason, I started watching Angel. Then I gave Buffy a second chance, but again time was a problem.

Then FX began running Buffy on the weekdays (usually twice in the evening; was twice in the mornings to, but rereuns of the previous evening). Started noticing it was pretty witty and different. Now, I'm hooked. Although I think Angel is far better right now.

quality.

[Fanolex]

I don't flame trollers, I just discount their lack of information regarding the subject at hand.

The show and movie are nothing like each each other. Witty writing, an incredibly well-developed plotline, and despite the fantastical material they've managed to apply a great primetime soap opera-like sense of drama to the last couple of seasons, seeing as how a) it can't be all chuckles all of the time and b) the characters have grown up since it started out with them in high school.

Someone mentioned that it isn't serious enough? While I like where they've gone, most people have complained that it has gotten too much so.

In anycase, it's nice that they're ending it, giving them a chance to close up open storylines and not beat a dead horse.

Bravo.

Re:quality.

[Fanolex]

not to mention that awards shows are usually pretentiously biased anyway. watch what's good, screw the popularity contest.

Re:quality.

[Fanolex]

lol. correcting geek slang doesn't make you any cooler.

Re:quality.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they've grown up, you'd think they'd move past the high school centric lives.

The lack of award should be self-evident

[Wee]

It's not inexplicable at all why Buffy hasn't been nominated. The reason is very clear: Buffy just isn't that good. It's a silly show with a silly premise. The movie was passable, the show not so much. It (and its fans) takes itself much too seriously. I know it's all a matter of taste, but Buffy is definitely no Greg the Bunny when it comes to "witty and intelligent". And how come my favorite show wasn't nominated?

Anyway, I'm sure this is going to be modded as a troll or flamebait. Whatever. I just fail to see why one person's pet show (which has abysmal ratings, btw) not getting a nomination for an award makes front-page news.

-B

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point. It was nominated, but it was left off the ballot.

And, if you're going to use ratings as a measure of quality, it doesn't say much for Greg the Bunny then, either. And, while Buffy's ratings may not be great for all of broadcast TV, they do quite well on UPN, with most new episodes finishing in the top 3 (with Smackdown and Enterprise.)

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[wdr1]

Or, said another way:

Don't complain about lack of options. You've got to pick a few when you do multiple choice. Those are the breaks.

-Bill

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

Greg the Bunny is retarded. It was actually more retarded than Buffy, which is quite an accomplishment.

Funny how everyone seems to have a favorite show with the mental prowess of dogshit, but seems to think it's +25 Insightful +50 Informative.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a silly show with a silly premise.

Is this relevant?

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

If I had mod points, I'd definitely mod you down for that ignorant little tirade. The show is anything but silly... something you'd know if you ever were capable of looking past the title to see the smart, ground-breaking television that it is.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what's a real shame?

Clueless (the series) which is on the same network (Sundays at 11:30 AM in Redmond, WA) is much better than the movie, and definitely more intellegent, and funnier, and the chicks are hotter (overall) than Buffy (the series), and it has been overlooked for not only for the Emmies, but even a respectable time slot. If Vincini (from the Princess Bride) playing the English teacher doesn't deserve one for Best Supporting Actor, then I don't know who does. Certainly not some lame Wiccan Lesbo.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

As usual, the slashdot story is messed up. It should have said the show was accidentally left off the ballot. To say it was inexplicably not on the list implies it wasn't nominated or whatever. Doesn't make any difference to me. I don't watch Buffy or the Emmys.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah. Buffy is just cosmic. Deep, man. In fact, rumor has it the concept came out of a month of meditation the writers experienced after a seminar with Joseph Campbell.

Yeah.

Smart.

Ground breaking.

Toss it in the hole and lets throw on the dirt and get outta here.

Geesh.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[The_dev0]

...And i'd mod you down for being retarded. The show is silly. Deal with it. The characters prattle on for hours and say nothing, with almost every conversation being one person making a statement and everybody else saying the same thing in a different way. Listen closely next time you watch it, every single conversation is littered with obselete remarks. The witless banter between the main characters reminds me of the psuedo-intellectual drivel from Dawson's Creek. If there is any show more predictable than Buffy, I don't want to know about it. God, when will you people realise Buffy is a show for high school girls, and no matter what you say and what you tell yourself it doesn't make it any deeper than that. I admit, there have been a few episodes that were pretty good, and almost all four of them have been mentioned by name here already.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

I propose a new character for the show - called Drek. Would be a perfect compliment to the quality of the show.

Gee's, why don't a bunch of geeks just admit they watch the show to fapp to imagery of SMG.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[RatFink100]

Vicini = Wallace Shawn - and yes he's an excellent actor.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee's, why don't a bunch of geeks just admit they watch the show to fapp to imagery of SMG

oh man... I'm glad someone said it. What we have here is Beverly Hills 90210 with demons. Lots of 20-30 something arts graduates watch it and whack-off to that epitome of blond blandness: Sarah Michelle Gellar. However, they feel guilty about this and dressed the show up as: Ohhhh the writing.... ohhhh the acting.... ohhhh the insightful scripting.... ohhhh the stunts... splurt. Kleenex time.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is an over-analysed (to a extraordinarily tedious degree) teen show - vampires representing adults and/or puberty... yawn. If you want more proof, look at the whole Willow lesbo storyline. To the slashdot pseudo-intellectuals picking over the show right now, this represents a positive representation of homosexuality - and yet another check in their "why I think BtVS is marvellous column." To those of use watching the phenomenon from the outside, it is simply extra guilt-inducing wank material.

Buffy fans are perhaps the saddest of all genre fans. They watch a boring and stupid teen show, and delude themselves that it isn't trash. Stop taking yourselves so seriously, losers.

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I'm amazed that it matters so much to you that some people like this show.

Do you always spend your time worrying about what other people might be enhoying?

Re:The lack of award should be self-evident

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to listen to pseudo-intellectual fucknuts droning on about it. Damned fucking right it pisses me off.

Slashdot

[skydude_20]

News for Nerds. Stuff that matters.

It'll take a beowulf cluster of anything to find how this matters.

It's UPN

[Anonymous Coward]

And the sad part is the network is mentioned in the /. note.

You know, you're allowed to ignore stuff you don't like. This is not required reading.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite six witty, intelligent seasons, 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' has never been able to catch a break from the folks at the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences who vote on the annual Emmy Awards

Might it have something to do with the fact that the show is complete crap? Since when has Slashdot taken to posting people's whinings about a show not winning an Emmy? I know I'd pay $5 or more a month for this tripe.

Who really cares about the Emmies?

[euxneks]

I would have thought that Slashdot readers, of all the people, would be the last people to care about what shows get the emmies. I know that if some show receives an emmy I won't give it more precidence over any other shows when I'm channel surfing.

Possible reason for Buffy's shutout...

[kev-san]

It's not a well-written show.

Re:Possible reason for Buffy's shutout...

[teraph]

It was nominated for an Emmy for writing in 2000. It has to be pretty good to be nominated with the West Wing and the Sopranos (and those were the only three dramas nominated for writing that year).

Re:Possible reason for Buffy's shutout...

[Anonymous Coward]

For sure not well written THIS year, very much the opposite in previous years.

But this year, hell yeah it sucked.

Re:Possible reason for Buffy's shutout...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it is generally regarded to have some of, if not the best weekly writing in a TV series. University profs write papers about the sows writing for christsakes. The Emmys just don't seem to like it because of the silly name, or the weird sci-fi-ish, horror movie plot. They always seem to hat those shows, no matter how good (how come ST:TNG never one an emmy for the 'best of bothe worlds' ep.?)

So?

[emmons]

This does not matter and it's not news for nerds. Why is it on Slashdot?

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

while(buffyIsOnTheAir ) {
if(show == BUFFY)
; // don't give a break
else
break;
}

ConsiderForDecentEmmy();

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think you're insightful or something? I've read this site from the beginning. I was on #e when Rob first demonstrated the look and feel of the site, before it was public. This doesn't matter except that I can tell you that since the public release there have always been the mental dwarves such as yourself that:
1. Think people don't realize when something is stupid
2. Think that because they don't think this is news for nerds, it shouldn't be on Slashdot
3. Post moronic "So?" comments to every single subject.
4. Feel morally compelled to waste space and bandwidth with inane drivel that is wholely off-topic, uninsightful, flamebait while posing as the arbiter of righteousness about the usage of Slashdot's resources.

Please, the next time you feel the need to post this sort of stupid crap, consider that you're not +5 Insightful and people will either care or not, and think it belongs here or not and that you add nothing to the conversation nor are overly original.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I'm not the only old timer who's gotten so sick of the buttsniffing 'karma-handle' bullshit on this site, and posts as AC these days, eh?

Slashdot is dead...

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me a troll, but when the postal rates change and it doesn't make slashdot (nerds do pay bills); but Buffy's latest miss does, it says alot about where "news for nerds" is headed.

Buffy as a series mostly fell off the face of the earth when WB nuked the awsome, two hour butt kicking Tuesday nights we all miss.

The "noise" ratio here is approching the level of television.

Re:Slashdot is dead...

[Anonvmous Coward]

Some of us have girlfriends that watch that shit. If I go home to my gf and tell her that Buffy can't catch a break at the Emmy's, then she'll think I pay attention to what she's interested in. Then, for the next couple of days, Slashdot's not so interesting. Heh.

Re:Slashdot is dead...

[eberry]

Call me a troll, but when the postal rates change and it doesn't make slashdot (nerds do pay bills)

Who uses mail? I get all my bills delivered to my Amex bill center and it get's handled from there. Nerds may pay bills, but they don't use the USPS. Give us a break.

Re:Slashdot is dead...

[MoreDruid]

Haha! Dare you post this with your own nick instead of AC? or are you afraid of the L337 B@$h1ng $k1llz of the /. crowd?

Re:Slashdot is dead...

[Anonvmous Coward]

I got your reply, didn't I? :)

Re:Slashdot is dead...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Aren't you cool.

+1, Conspiracy

[bill_mcgonigle]

Yeah, that's just a bit coincidental, isn't it?

Who cares?

[LoRdTAW]

Ok everyone, if you dont want to see bullshit news like this one turn it off in your prefrences.

Re:Who cares?

[Anonvmous Coward]

Heh what's funny is that people posting 'this is not the news we want!' is actually causing topics like this to be considered more. If this story reaches 400 comments, then that'll mean more ad revenue for Sr. Taco because it means people are actively reading it.

It's kinda like buying an SUV because you hate OPEC. Heh.

Buffy is the best writing on TV

[jeff13]

What, you think LAW&ORDER is the best writing? Grow up!

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the most popular show in my crowd - I'm 30ish, my friends are generally Masters grades in the arts... they're not a kind audience. Think about it, the Simpsons get Emmys right?

I love Buffy. The past season was masterful. Joss Whedon has really accomplished something special, just as the cast and crew have. Truly epic story telling. Into the hell-mouth with those Emmy jerks! This old Hollywood snobbery about Sci-Fi and Fantasy fiction has gotta go! It's the 21st Century people! Put the half-calf' down and wise up! This is great stuff... on TV!

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in the 30s group, too; but I chose a career that paid the bills, not a hobby that keeps me poor.

Buffy is crap; and it hasn't been on my TV in years.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[jeff13]

Is it possible to mode a post up to bitter old bastard? lol!!!

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[jaboonday]

Buffy doesn't even deserve to lick the sweat off the small nut of Law & Order's Ballzac! Of course Law & Order is a better show than Buffy! The fact that it's consistently ranked in the top ten every week in Nielsen ratings and Buffy isn't even in the top 20 should be testament to that!

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Jonny Ringo]

I'm 30ish, my friends are generally Masters grades in the arts... they're not a kind audience.

So your friends (whom are not a kind audience) find it enteraining that vampires can be killed by tooth picks from annoying bitch?

Hmm, I wonder what they would actually say about a good show.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[jeff13]

Some might disagree. Law&Order is considered pretty standard "cop show" fair by some, including the social fantasy of it. Nielson ratings are neither here nor there don't ya think? And somehow I can't see "lick the sweat off" is a particularly partial review there pal. What? No credit for the show at all? Nothing?

Hey, I thought the show was some teen girl thing too. I happened to watch some and saw very good stories imho. 'Course, the issue here, I believe, is the age old snobbery Sci-Fi and Fantasy fiction has suffered from the "real" industry. I mean, hey, these sorts of shows are on the same networks, why are they excluded so much?

And somebody please mod down everyone complaining that this shouldn't be posted on Slashdot. They've been following these shows since day one right? This isn't some dry IT tech site from some bland Corporate drones - if ya don't like it...

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[jeff13]

killed by tooth picks from annoying bitch?
.
Heh heh. Yeah well, potato potaaaato. It's not about the fighting, it's not Jason Lee. ;p

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Erasmus Darwin]

"The fact that it's consistently ranked in the top ten every week in Nielsen ratings and Buffy isn't even in the top 20 should be testament to that!"

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that the argument that it's good because it's popular won't work at all on Slashdot.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[farfolen]

the inverse seems to work

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Anonymous Coward]

This IS a good show, your ignorance of that fact to the contrary notwithstanding.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Sancho]

No kidding. People complain about the popular OS, popular movies, popular music...and then use the argument that because a show is popular it must be better.
Hypocracy is everywhere, though, so this shouldn't be unexpected.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not sci-fi or fantasy.

It's teenie bopper/comic book pagan fluff that used to try to disguise itself with tongue in cheek humor.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Please mod down Buffy fanboys that make stupid claims and humiliate themselves with their writing, while at the same time boasting about the mental selectiveness and prowess of their cliques.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Well on slashdot it is just the opposite, anything popular is considered crap, regardless of its quality.

Re:Buffy is the best writing on TV

[jaboonday]

In case you all didn't know, my previous post was definitely intended to be flamebait!

Truthfully, I do think that Law & Order is a better show than Buffy, but not because it is a highly (Nielsen) rated show, but because it's just a damn good show! Of course my opinion is biased (aren't they all though?), because behind The Simpsons, Law & Order is my favorite show on network TV. Say what you want about that, but nothing is going to convince me otherwise!

I've tried watching Buffy before, but it's just too corny for me. Granted, there have been some episodes of L&O that have been corny, but EVERY episode of Buffy that I've ever seen has been incredibly corny (in my humble opinion, of course).

But why in the hell am i even posting commentary on a durn TV show when this website is supposed to be about "Stuff that Matters"? I guess I just happened to have too much time on my hands today....

The Best Musical Ever

[ajs]

Ok, I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but when you compare "Once More With Feeling" to other musicals in it's genre (comedy/horror) you have Little Shop of Horrors and The Rocky Horror Picture Show. There must be others, but that's what I can think of. I love both of those, but OMWF just blew me away. The episode stands on its own (I know, since I wasn't a Buffy fan when I first saw it), and it only gets more engrosing as you become more familliar with the series (e.g. I just loved the "bunnies" bit from Anya, but it got even funnier when I saw the previous holloween episode).

If you're a fan of the series and have friends who have held out, I strongly suggest that you tie them to their chairs for this showing (even though it's cut-down), but then if you're a fan you probably knew that :-)

It's too bad that this episode kicked off (with a couple of set-up episodes) the least appealing season so far. I'm looking forward to next season though. I just hope Firefly and Angel don't take too much out of the creative team....

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, I had never watched buffy before "once more with feeling" but it was some of the best TV I can remember seeing. It made we want to learn more about Buffy.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Sax Maniac]

Ok, I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but when you compare "Once More With Feeling" to other musicals in it's genre (comedy/horror) you have Little Shop of Horrors and The Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Oh my, not even close. The musical episode of Buffy is only interesting to severe Buffy fans, like my wife. Whereas Little Shop and Rocky Horror stand alone as great musicals. To be "best in it's genre", it has to be a little more than an in-joke for Buffy fans.

(Disclaimer: I was forced to watch it because my wife was in the hospital having a baby, so I wasn't allowed to leave the room as I normally do when Buffy comes on.)

The lyrics were terrible. Most of the cast had terrible voices, except for "The Adult" (Giles?) and one other chicky-poo. Certainly not Gellar, certainly not Hannigan, certainly not Buffy's sister, the worst of the bunch.

Even my wife, who is a rabid Buffy fan, admitted that it was terrible. (That's because she's also is a musician, and likes musicals.)

I'll admit that I've never given Buffy a serious chance, so I can't properly pass judgement on the show itself. (The few episodes I have seen seemed silly squared.) It might have been a good Buffy episode in the context of other Buffy episodes, but it certainly was not a good musical in context of other musicals.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Rocky Horror is a great musical like the WWE is full of great athletes...

what i'm saying is, you're gay.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

I am having a hard time imagining somebody in the hospital, in labor, demanding to watch a specific television program. Further, it's really, really weird that she would have a critical opinion about it afterwards.

Was anybody paying attention to the delivery? I hope the baby didn't get dropped on it's head during a particularly captivating song.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice work fucko. WWE stars couldn't fight for shit, but you can't say they aren't atheletes. I bet they could run your pansy-ass off.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

OH GOD it HURTS sooo MUCH OH GOD OH GOD GIMME THE DRUGS

Oh, and shit, Buffy's on, would you flick that onto channel 5 sweetie? Ta.

AAAAAAARGH

I can see it... I guess you just don't have the imagination ;P
But seriously, Mr Maniac, would you mind explaining this a bit more for us?

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Jake96]

Most of the cast's bad voices were essential to the premise of that episode! I'm tired of most people not understanding that, even some of the cast members.

Look, in real life, if you bust out singing, who wants to listen? Unless you're unusually good, nobody. You're probably a poor or mediocre singer, as am I and are most people.

So, in order for the characters to believably be under the influence of a song-and-dance causing demon, they should sing just as well as the average person, with few exceptions.

This not only reinforces the suspension of disbelief for the show, but plays off the long tradition of musicals, particularly movies, which normally dub over any less-than-stellar singing voice of an actor with the voice of a professional singer. That's fine for those movies, because they exist in their own little magical world which doesn't bat an eye at spontaneous song-and-dance numbers.

"Once More, With Feeling" intentionally pointed out the basic weirdness of the little musical parallel universe all those movies and plays inhabit. It's akin to Cervante's Don Quixote, which extrapolated the plots of popular romantic adventure novels of the day to find that in real life, such behavior would be odd, suicidal and insane (though very funny).

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[gnalre]

Hey, don't forget the musical episode of LEXX

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Women often go into the hospital before labor begins. Sometimes as much as a week or two before. It all depends on the doctor, the woman, and whether there are any expected issues or complications.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[ajs]

Wow, great points... I'm surprised you haven't been modded up.

I was impressed, not because all of their voices were perfect (they were far from that), but because this cast, which was clearly not chosen for their singing ability, could sing well enough to hold the basic premise of the episode and make it enjoyable.

A friend of mine who is a musiscian watched it with me and commented that they also went out of their way to "cover" the styles of just about every musical type from rock opera to music video to 50s dance-musicals to show-tune stage productions. I think that really helped. If it had been a straight show-tune production it would have emphasized the lack of experience of the cast. As it was, I found myself paying more attention to the story and how the various numbers developed each of the characters.

Bottom line: if you're not prone to disecting musical performances on technical merit rather than contribution to story and you liked Little Shop of Horrors or The Rocky Horror Picture Show, this is the show for you.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[ajs]

The musical episode of Buffy is only interesting to severe Buffy fans

As I pointed out, I wasn't when I saw it for the first time, so there goes that hypothesis....

I was forced to watch it

Well, there's a positive outlook. You know when I suggested that fans tie their friends to chairs and make them watch it, I was kidding... :-)

Most of the cast had terrible voices

I suppose they had untrained voices, but I was impressed by how well a cast that was hired WITHOUT singing being a criteria were able to pull this off. Every song was at least good, IMHO with stand-outs from Giles and Tarra (I really thought Tarra was dubbed, she was so good). I don't look at the cast of The Matrix and say "what awful stances... and just look at that lame punch!" I look at actors doing their own fight scenes with a degree of believability and I'm pleased as punch (no pun(ch) intended). I look at OMWF and I see a show that's brave enough to NOT dub the cast's voices, which as others have pointed out actually helps the story.

Even my wife, who is a rabid Buffy fan, admitted that it was terrible.

I'm sorry she was unable to appreciate it, but there were a lot of fans and non-fans alike who deeply enjoyed this episode. At the very least, it was one of those risky sort of of-topic episodes that shows like Buffy, The West Wing, Babylon 5 (may it rest in peace) have to set them apart from the masses of episodic TV.

it certainly was not a good musical in context of other musicals.

It depends on what you look for in a musical. If you look for perfect pitch or prize-winning wardrobe you won't get it in Buffy. If you look for character development, quality story-telling and a sense of humor, OMWF is where you go.

FWIW: I often find myself humming one of the songs from the episode. That is my definition of a successful musical.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Sax Maniac]

I fully understand that the singing was part of plot. Unfortunately, that's not the case for musicals. Except for spots where there's a "show within a show", characters do not realize they are singing. They sing because the creator is trying to get across a point that can't be done with dialogue. They don't realize this any more than television characters are aware of other artistic devices, like camera angles of fade-outs to commerical.

That the characters can't sing asserts my point: it was a good Buffy episode for people who like Buffy, and not necessarily musicals. It was not a good musical for those who like musicals, and not necessarily Buffy.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Sax Maniac]

Sure. You have no idea how labor works, Mr Coward.

You're confusing early labor (the part where you sit around for hours doing nothing, and no doctors or nurses are around) with active labor (the part where you push hard for a few minutes and you are surrounded by doctors and nurses).

You've been watching too much TV. Most labors are not complete suprises and require driving to the hospital at 90mph while the woman is in painful active labor.

Re:The Best Musical Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed I don't know anything about labour, having never given birth via my penis or my girlfriend.

I am now slightly more enlightened... thanks
Damn TV lies to me! ;)

Frankly, I'm surprised to hear that women can 'go into labour' and be sitting twiddling their thumbs for a week... never EVER heard that one.
My own mother was rushed to the hospital, and I popped out within a few hours - my only experience with birth, and I certainly don't remember it myself.

I'm confused

[MeowMeow Jones]

According to www.emmys.com, the nominees arn't released until July 18th. Who has the time machine.

Anyway, shows that push genre boundries always have trouble getting nominated. Don't you remember when Simpsons couldn't get nominated for best comedy because it was a cartoon. Same with Northern Exposure, because it was an hour long, and hence couldn't be a comedy.

I guess they need a best PoMo series.

Re:I'm confused

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article. This is in reference to the fact that the episode was *left off the list* of episodes which could be nominated.

Buffy?! What a piece of trash

[Boomer2]

Just get a porno channel. It's what you're looking for in Buffy; but you don't want to keep flipping the channel when Mom comes into your room.

Seriously guys.

[red5]

Just because watching Buffy's err, fists movie really fast and willow doing some hot girl on girl action. get's you all hot and bothered doesn't make it a good show.

The acting is week, the story is lame and it's pretty much on par with Charmed.

What next Xeana and Shiva?

Re:Seriously guys.

[gwernol]

The acting is week, the story is lame and it's pretty much on par with Charmed.

Actually I think its your "analysis" that is weak...

Buffy is one of the more interesting series on TV at the moment. It deals smartly with its characters, is often very well written and the acting is usually good and can be terrific. Sarah Michelle Gellar is a very good actress: if you tried watching some of her quieter, subtler moments you'd see some of the best screen acting currently being done.

The show is clever because it takes a dumb premise and uses it to talk about the real world. Its use of fantasy as a metaphor for the real problems that people face growing up and (now) moving out into the real world is smart and usually very well executed.

Are there weak episodes? Absolutely. Is it a shame that Joss Whedon is doing so many series that his shows are starting to suffer? No doubt. Is all the acting up to snuff? No - Michelle Trachtenberg seems to be the Scrappy Doo of BtVS.

But overall its a smart, funny well produced series that shows how TV can be non-obvious, thoughtful and entertaining.

If you truly compare it to Charmed which is at best a warmed-over Buffy rip-off written and produced by network hacks, then I'd advise you give up that dream of becoming a professional TV critic and start practicing "would you like fries with that" line...

Re:Seriously guys.

[kmellis]

It's silly to try to defend the show, in general, from people who have a low opinion of it -- especially those who haven't watched it or have watched only a few episodes. Buffy's quality is very uneven, I don't think the show taken as a whole deserves an Emmy. But that's just my opinion.

Specifically, the post was talking about "One More, With Feeling", which is another matter entirely.

Lots of individual episodes of series where exceptional quality in some sort is displayed are recognized in the Emmys. OMWF is, in my opinion and many, many, other people's opinion (not all Buffy fans) very definitely Emmy-worthy. It's really a pretty daring and remarkable accomplishment. This season was pretty bad -- it's almost as if the writers put everything they had into that one episode.

Re:Seriously guys.

[red5]

"Sarah Michelle Gellar is a very good actress: if you tried watching some of her quieter, subtler moments you'd see some of the best screen acting currently being done."

Sure whatever fanboy.

"Is it a shame that Joss Whedon is doing so many series that his shows are starting to suffer? No doubt. Is all the acting up to snuff? No - Michelle Trachtenberg seems to be the Scrappy Doo of BtVS."

Okay so which is it the best thing since sliced bread or the product of a poor overworked director?

"If you truly compare it to Charmed which is at best a warmed-over Buffy rip-off written and produced by network hacks, then I'd advise you give up that dream of becoming a professional TV critic and start practicing "would you like fries with that" line..."

Okay fanboy whatever. I used to feel the same way about Buffy then I grew out of puberty. Perhaps one day you'll do the same once you start thinking with your brain instead of something else.

Re:Seriously guys.

[russmay]

lol!

In otherwords, "I don't like Buffy so you're stoopid!"

Ah, with Ren and Stimpy coming back, does that counter the evil done to Buffy? Is balance restored in the cultural wasteland?

Re:Seriously guys.

[ebuilder]

I couldn't agree more. Ok so some of you like it, that's fine, but worthy of awards? Come on..
I'm also wondering how many little girls have been beaten up because they did their best Buffy impression on someone who didn't watch the show..

Re:Seriously guys.

[Sloppy]

Just because watching Buffy's err, fists movie really fast and willow doing some hot girl on girl action. get's you all hot and bothered doesn't make it a good show.

You don't understand. There are lots of TV shows where you can watch pretty girls, ok? SMG is good-looking, but she's not outrageously exceptionally good-looking in a religeous-inspiring launch-a-thousand-ships kind of way. And the "hot girl on girl action" was only added in recent years, long after the show already had a raving fanbase and Joss started to run out of ideas.

There's more to this show than eye-candy for horny guys.

Re:Seriously guys.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what you did last summer
Threesome
Scooby doo

Did I miss anything?

What do you "witches" have against Charmed?

Re:Seriously guys.

[red5]

I'm also wondering how many little girls have been beaten up because they did their best Buffy impression on someone who didn't watch the show..

Or better yet thouse same girsl heartbroken when instink doesn't win a grammy :)

Re:Seriously guys.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I think its your "analysis" that is weak...

And I find both of your analyses weak. Of course I don't find any intellectual reward for Buffy, but the acting isn't nearly as bad as Charmed.

At times it can be very amusing. I watch it, but it's not fine television. I've even watched it since the show began.


Buffy is one of the more interesting series on TV at the moment. It deals smartly with its characters, is often very well written and the acting is usually good and can be terrific. Sarah Michelle Gellar is a very good actress: if you tried watching some of her quieter, subtler moments you'd see some of the best screen acting currently being done.


Its characters have had the same effective roles since the inception of the show. They're your typical exaggerated archetypes that you'll find in any television show. With the exception of Buffy becoming more forceful mentally, and Willow wearing clothing that didn't come from the Salvation Army, there's not a tremendous deal of growth.
You switch love interests, and then have the same emotional battles over and over. You replace one monster with another. Same show season after season. There're a few exceptions, but the show is really stale

As for how smart the characters are handled:

Every episode the Dawn character is the same whiny brat with the same tag lines. That got old real quickly.

Before they started to write Spike with any sort of thought, he was a boring, drole character that lived in the same warehouse with a pack of incompetent evil doers. You cannot even imagine the lack of any intellectual intrigue of a pack of evil doers in their not-so-secret hideout causing the monster-of-the-day. Really, that sort of crap is never seen elsewhere on TV or anything.

Every season ends with a pathetic anti-climatic confrontation. And sometimes over-hyped non-season-ending monsters receive the same treatment. Not since the Master have you not been able to predict the majority of the story arc just from the first few minutes of the first episode of the season.

All you need is a rocket launcher, a troll hammer, a sword, some retarded matrix spell, or what have you to completely turn the tide of a battle that was over-dramaticized from the start.

Jumping on the lesbian bandwagon pretty late in the game isn't smart, it's trendy. Killing off the lover sending Willow into a psychotic rage? Predictable.

Sarah Michelle Gellar may actually be one of the worst performers in the show, but it's hard to tell when most of the cast gets its fair share of horrible writing. Nicholas Brendon, Alyson Hanigan, and James Marsters are probably the best of the cast of Buffy in terms of acting ability. Anthony Stewart has certainly given his fair share of good performances, as well.

Seth Green did a much better job towards the end of his work with the show.

George Hertzberg has done the best dialogue delivery for a villian.

The show is clever because it takes a dumb premise and uses it to talk about the real world. Its use of fantasy as a metaphor for the real problems that people face growing up and (now) moving out into the real world is smart and usually very well executed.


A lot of shows on television do this. Most sitcoms, The Simpsons, The Daily Show, 90210, even your beloved Charmed. That's what most TV does, it takes every day nonsense, puts a silly spin on it, and then attempts to make it seem insightful through dialogue meant for teenagers and females.

Of the things I value in the show, its insightfulness doesn't rank. It has amusing quips, with writing that while be better than say Andromeda, Enterprise, Charmed, or much of the other crap that's on Network TV in the early evening, is hardly spectacular. It's sarcastically funny. That doesn't win you awards for drama.


But overall its a smart, funny well produced series that shows how TV can be non-obvious, thoughtful and entertaining.


It can be entertaining, but so can a lot of things that won't even be nominated for awards. Yeah, it's not Dawson's Creek, but it's just a step above.


If you truly compare it to Charmed which is at best a warmed-over Buffy rip


Charmed is more like a candy-assed ripoff of the movie The Craft than anything to do with Buffy. Unless you think Buffy owns the rights to the market on modern use of histortical fantasy.

then I'd advise you give up that dream of becoming a professional TV critic and start practicing "would you like fries with that" line...

I know it's obvious that you're taking your job advice from Buffy's latest season, but just the same perhaps you should remove your Fanboy goggles before you rank the basis (from your claims) for your reasons for being so infatuated with Buffy before you whack off all over someone else's equally subjective and unspecific critique of the show.

My dog could become a TV critic, it doesn't take insight. It's hardly an objective field of journalism, or even one that even attempts to utilize reason to come to conclusions. So if you're looking for a career as a TV critic, taunting the inadequacies of a show that's not even remotely close to being the most popular will do little to tarnish your career goals.

Re:Seriously guys.

[dinivin]

Funny, but I know a number of gay men who watch Buffy because it has good acting, good writing, great characters, and interesting plot lines, not because of the girl on girl action.

Just because you think with your dick doesn't mean everyone else does.

Re:Seriously guys.

[Anonymous Coward]

actually the only people i know who like buffy are lesbians.

clearly, the show is gay in every possible sense of the word.

Re:Seriously guys.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they watch it because it's gay.

Re:Seriously guys.

[tbarrie]

Is all the acting up to snuff? No - Michelle Trachtenberg seems to be the Scrappy Doo of BtVS.

You're saying Scrappy Doo was a poor actor?

Re:Seriously guys.

[Chasing Amy]

> SMG is good-looking, but she's not outrageously exceptionally
> good-looking in a religeous-inspiring launch-a-thousand-ships kind of way.

No, that would be her little sister on the show, Michelle Trachtenberg, who's much more launch-a-thousand-ships lovely than Gellar. Mmmmm...Michelle Trachtenberg... Jailbait: The Other White Meat. Seriously, don't you just see her on *Buffy* and wanna bend her over and grab her hair and...

Oops, did I type that out loud? Err... :-)

Re:Seriously guys.

[mpe]

Is it a shame that Joss Whedon is doing so many series that his shows are starting to suffer? No doubt. Is all the acting up to snuff? No - Michelle Trachtenberg seems to be the Scrappy Doo of BtVS.

Actually Michelle is quite good when she is given something decent to do. Problem is that for much of S6 she wasn't.

Re:Seriously guys.

[paperclippy]

A very large portion of Buffy's fanbase is straight women, like myself. I can guarantee you that it doesn't get me "hot and bothered," so that's obviously not the reason I'm watching it. It's entertaining and can have a dramatic episode that keeps you laughing the whole time. One of my favorite lines from the series is actually from the first season, where they're getting ready to make some new stakes and other weapons, and Xander says " . . . and while I whittle, I plan to whistle a jaunty tune!" Admittedly, Buffy's brand of humor isn't for everyone, but if it's the kind of thing you like, it's great.

Re:Seriously guys.

[red5]

I never said Buffy was unenjoyable I just find the idea that it somehow deserves an award appalling.

How real is real?

[fm6]

Yeah, well Darth/Annakin aint real either. Buffy is actually more real, even if you don't believe in vampires! Not to mention better written.

Re:How real is real?

[unicron]

Then again Episode 2 wasn't about Anakin's struggles with peer pressures, either. The difference is all buffy is doing is adding a pathetic twist to the already overdone poppy high school bunch television idea.

Change to tagline request...

[Kredal]

Shouldn't that be "Undead-in-the-water" dept?

Long Live OMWF!

[JohnA]

Man, does that suck. Once more, with feeling is one of the best episodes of any show ever aired. Whether you love or hate Buffy creator Joss Whedon, you have to appreciate the sheer chutzpah required to create a musical episode in the style of the classic Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals.

If you have not seen the show, do yourself a favor and *ahem* acquire the music. Hearing the cast sing is alone worth the download (Well, maybe not Alyson Hannigan, but...).

Re:Long Live OMWF!

[alanwj]

Hearing the cast sing is alone worth the download (Well, maybe not Alyson Hannigan, but...)

She doesn't do a whole lot of singing as it is in the musical... Although if you listen closely during the the song "Walk Through The Fire" she has the line "I think this line's mostly filler."

Alan

Re:Long Live OMWF!

[hondo77]

If you really think that chutzpah deserves an Emmy, I have two words for you: Cop Rock.

Re:Long Live OMWF!

[Chris Johnson]

But how can any geek not appreciate meta-lyrics like:

(Willow) I think this line's mostly filler... o/`

...particularly with the nice twist that the meta-lyric about the 'filler line' being represented by 'I think this line's mostly filler' is given to the one character most likely to have self-doubts about her performing abilities, and most likely to think that no matter what the line actually was? :D

For _good_ singing I'd have to give the nod to Tara and Giles there, with that contrapuntal, emotional bit that resolves into 'wish I could staaaaaay' with a harmony that could cut glass... though I always want to smack Anthony Stewart Head for jamming on the note instead of holding it and letting that harmony ring out :)

Re:Long Live OMWF!

[JohnA]

Exactly! Or how about "The curtain's fall'n on a kiss. God Knows, we can tell the end is near." Simply brilliant.

And "I'm Under Your Spell" made EVERYONE fall in love with Tara's character even more.

Okay... time to break out the VCD and watch again. :-)

"For those of you just joining us..."

[eatenn]

"...everyone here is a crazy person."

The reason that this is news is not because we're all big fanboys and think Buffy should win an award -- that is not up to us -- the reason this is news is because the musical episode of Buffy, Once More, With Feeling, was not even available as an option on the ballot. How are they supposed to get a fair chance if voters have to go to extra measures to support it? If this happened to your precious X-Files, everyone would be singing a completely different tune. Whether you are a fan of the show or not is not the issue at stake (see me pun).

Maybe everyone should try reading the entire story before automatically dismissing it as an outcry from pouting fanboys. (But oh yes, there will be those too)

Re:"For those of you just joining us..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Pun forest, pun.... Okay I'll stop the punishment now.

Re:"For those of you just joining us..."

[Jonny Ringo]

Whether you are a fan of the show or not is not the issue at stake

I beg the differ, only fans will make a difference.
I am not a fan, therfor I give a fuck.

The only way I would care is if Buffy herself came over hear to buff my Cock.

Re:"For those of you just joining us..."

[geekoid]

"The reason that this is news is not because we're all big fanboys and think Buffy should win an award -- that is not up to us -- the reason this is news is because the musical episode of Buffy, Once More, With Feeling, was not even available as an option on the ballot. "

uummmm, the specific episod doesn't matter, if it wasn't that episod, you would still be whining.

Unless you think every tv show should have an episode on the ballot, then you would have a point.

And..?

[photon317]

I'm sorry, but I don't think Buffy is deserving of any awards. It's not really a very good show - the plots are pretty unoriginal, the dialogue is pretty uninspired, etc, etc..

It's just another trashy sitcom with a twist.

Re:And..?

[Ludotech]

How many episodes have you seen? Or did you just read about it in the TV guide?

Re:And..?

[photon317]

Tons, my gf is a huge Buffy fan.

Re:And..?

[photon317]

FLAMEBAIT???

Bleh I hope you get metamodded to hell and never moderate again. Then again I'm sure there's tons of Buffy-loving metamoderators who will exert their influence instead of being correct and fair.

Now, if my above comment had instead been "BUFFY SUX AZZ" or something, I could see "Flamebait", or maybe even "Troll" (not that there's really much difference) - but I posted an intelligent comment, based on my experience with the subject matter.

I'll re-state it again:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a bad sitcom with a dark side. It's extremely repetitive, and the dialogue is repetitive of itself and other shows. They jump from trick device to trick device to make the shows ratings (note especially what was discussed in a Slashdot poll before abou the ever-changing identity of the shygirl-goth-slut-lesbian-witch character).

They play to the same crowd as "Charmed" and anything else that goes toward the pseudo-goth-ish witch/vampire themes. Charmed is even worse than Buffy, but it's buffy that's under the microscope in this article.

Anyways, I'm done venting, proceed to moderate badly with impunity.

Re:And..?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but I don't think Buffy is deserving of any awards. It's not really a very good show - the plots are pretty unoriginal, the dialogue is pretty uninspired, etc, etc..

It's just another trashy sitcom with a twist.

Hmm, I can take or leave Buffy, but it seems to me that both of your comments are indeed Flamebait, in that they are just expressions that "I hate Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I think it is stupid." (Implying poor taste on the part of the people who watch it.)

I would find your comments more constructive if you said, "Hey, Buffy isn't in the same league as shows X, Y, and Z that are nominated for Emmy's. Those shows are well written. Unlike Buffy, which is just a bad sitcom with a darkside and cheap tricks to garner ratings."

No matter how bad TV is every year, even if every show on network TV is absolute trash unworthy of note, they are still going to give out the Emmy's. It's not enough to say that Buffy doesn't deserve one, you have to explain why the other substandard junk that will recieve the award deserves it more. Believe me, no matter what wins the award this year, it will likely fall into the catagory of "waste of tape." However, this has always been true, there's never anything good on TV and never has been.

The moderation you recieved was apt and correct. Now take it, and don't worry so much about imaginary status symbols like Slashdot karma.

Re:And..?

[photon317]

(By the way, can I stick in a flame here against losers who aren't willing to make a controversial post without being an AC? Maybe you're worried about your own karma?)

I don't care about my karma, I have plenty to burn. What I care about is my opinion being supressed. If everyone with a dissenting opinion is modded down as "flamebait", then there's not much discussion going on is there?

I gave my reasons. To me the show *is* worthless. The dialogue and acting *are* terrible. My opinion *is* valid, and it's not flamebait. I do believe people who watch it have poor taste, and that still doesn't make this flamebait.

Maybe I'm just stupid, but . . .

[ThousandStars]

I fail to see how this even the slightest bit of relevence on /. Sure, my 16 year old sister loves the show, but the aol and outlook express (much love between these and this community) are the extent of her nerdiness.

Besides, I doubt anyone here watches buffy, except perhaps because the girl on it is undoubtedly really hot.

Of course, maybe I'm about to modded as a troll and flamed in a thousand replies by /. reading buffy fans, but I'd put money against it.

Re:Maybe I'm just stupid, but . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

That Buffy girl isn't THAT hot. Not enough to warrant a person watching the show for an hour. I guess most of the people who watch that show actually enjoy it. Its your opinion and my opinion that the show isn't that good but the issue is that they were excluded. Do we need this constant stream of people saying "This sucks!". Followed by the "I'm gonna get flamebait and troll" comments they make so their feelings won't be hurt?

True, but

[fm6]

Some individual eps were very good. Mostly OMWF, and a few related eps.

Besides, even at its worst, Buffy is original, creative, insightful, well-acted, and to the point. I get more pleasure out of a bad Buffy episode than I get out of the entire George Lucas "canon".

Not on the list *eligible* to be nominated

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that the fact which most of the previous posts have missed (hey didn't read the article, there's a shocker) is that the episode was left off the list of *eligible* episodes. Not that the show wasn't nominated, but that it *couldn't* be nominated (without following a complex series of instructions applicable only to the Buffy episode). The nominations aren't out yet. Perhaps, though, there will be enough publicity about the mishap, nominators will actually go out and watch the episode, which was, indeed, groundbreaking and unlike anything else on TV last year (or maybe even ever)...

What makes a good show?

[KlippoKlondike]

Is it writing? Acting? Editing? Any of these things? I really don't know, but Buffy just doesn't entertain me in any way, and I'll tell you why. I'll start with a technicality first. Buffy rarely kills vampires any more, it's all ghouls and zombies and the like. Second, the acting is absolutely terrible. I can't remember his name, but the tall guy with the shifty mouth that's friends with buffy needs serious acting lessons. He's from the Ben Affleck squint-squirm-mumble and act-threw-your-teeth school of acting. Then, you've got Sara Michelle Gellar, who just sticks out her chest instead of getting into character, and her magical friend Willow who says every line with the same delivery, no matter if it's comical or dramatic it's always the same. Third, the writing is not good. Now, this is a tender subject because of the huge creative control from the creator and his love of the show, but his ego is just getting in the way. The snappy one liners after a vampire skewing were campy at first, but every character vomiting at least 6-7 of those things every episode for half a decade? Give me a break. This isn't a fourth since it's still about creative control. The movie was better. I know the creator got pissed that Donal Sutherland kept rewriting lines, but they were funny and unforced. The creator (sorry, i forgot his name and am too lazy to find it) throw dialog around that nobody outside of a television show would ever say. The movie had a few, and these few were from the creator. Fourth, what's with the geek patrol villians? I thought /.ers hated when hollywood got the geek image wrong, yet you buy this stereotype? I don't expect a tv show to be as realistic as the sugar in coffee, but we've gotta draw a line somewhere. Last, but not least, to try and give my point a little boost, we all know bruce campbell right? He's got the campy, kitschy, cult-movie/tv-show down to pat. Now, compare his works to this show. I'll take brisco any day, thank you very much. And, that's my rant. I'm ready for the karma abuse!

Re:What makes a good show?

[Sancho]

I'll start with a technicality first. Buffy rarely kills vampires any more, it's all ghouls and zombies and the like.

You're saying this inherently makes it a bad show? It was established in the first episode that vampires weren't all that Buffy would be fighting. They don't even call her a Vampire Slayer anymore, it's down to just Slayer. That you are using this as the opening to your argument makes the rest of it really weak.

Second, the acting is absolutely terrible. I can't remember his name, but the tall guy with the shifty mouth that's friends with buffy needs serious acting lessons. He's from the Ben Affleck squint-squirm-mumble and act-threw-your-teeth school of acting. Then, you've got Sara Michelle Gellar, who just sticks out her chest instead of getting into character, and her magical friend Willow who says every line with the same delivery, no matter if it's comical or dramatic it's always the same. Third, the writing is not good. Now, this is a tender subject because of the huge creative control from the creator and his love of the show, but his ego is just getting in the way.

Xander, the first character you refer to, is one of the most real and honest characters on TV. He doesn't act like any other character on TV. Neither do any of my friends act like any characters on TV. Or my parents. Or my parents friends. Think about it next time you watch a television show. Do people really talk like that? Do they deliver snappy dialogue? Do they get serious all of a sudden and say something important with gusto? I highly doubt it.
As for Sarah Michelle Gellar.... well this past season hasn't been a good one for her, I'll admit. The entire show seemed very blah, except for a very few episodes. Sarah was attempting to play someone who had given up on life, and in my opinion she just didn't do it. The mood of the show conveyed it more than she did. But in previous seasons her acting was excellent. She is very capable of relying on her acting ability instead of her breasts, and it has shown through time and again.
As for Willow. I think that's the actress. Watch her in American Pie or anything else she's done. That's the way she delivers all her lines. She made a breakthrough in the season finale and did something different, and it was the best acting job I've ever seen her (the actress) do.

Third, the writing is not good. Now, this is a tender subject because of the huge creative control from the creator and his love of the show, but his ego is just getting in the way. The snappy one liners after a vampire skewing were campy at first, but every character vomiting at least 6-7 of those things every episode for half a decade? Give me a break.

That's part of a comedy show. Ever watch Simpsons, another favorite around Slashdot?
As for the writing itself...there are ups and downs. Most of the time the writing is average, but occasionally it is superb. How many e you watched? If it's just a few here and there, you're not doing the show justice. Buffy isn't written a show at a time, it's written a SEASON at a time, with the expectation being that you will watch them all, and mostly in order. This creates a completely different effect, and I could see where the writing would be called into question as such.

This isn't a fourth since it's still about creative control. The movie was better.

I don't even feel the need to reply to this.

Fourth, what's with the geek patrol villians? I thought /.ers hated when hollywood got the geek image wrong, yet you buy this stereotype? I don't expect a tv show to be as realistic as the sugar in coffee, but we've gotta draw a line somewhere.

Most fans of the show believe that the geeks were the worst thing to happen to it. You have to look at it from Joss' perspective, though. The season before, Buffy defeated a god. Where do you go from there?
This season was all about growing up and fighting inner demons. The people who didn't get this probably understood during the final 4 episodes when one of the inner demons almost literally came out. The geeks were there to act as a catalyst for the final episodes, as well as add a bit of comic relief in an otherwise depressing season.

Re:What makes a good show?

[KlippoKlondike]

You think acting the same way in every show and movie you are in is a good thing? It's called not having any range, and-or ability. Also, tv characters are supposed to be realistic. Ever hear of Archie Bunker? One of the most famous television characters ever? He's a snapshot of an entire way of thinking. He represents millions of people and is three dimensional. He has reasons for his beliefs, even if you or i disagree with him. Xander? He says one liners. He complains a lot. He gets into arguments while inbetween plot points. He is COMIC RELIEF, and not a good one.

And, when i said snappy one liners, i meant the kind of Bob Patterson. The forced, time chewing kind.

Again, on delivering all your lines the same way: Not a good idea! This is a bad thing, always was a bad thing, always will be a bad thing. Maybe John Wayne can get away with it, but that willow chick aint no john wayne.

Also, the show is done one season at a time? Yes. But, why do most of them end with the always forced arms-cross, back-to-other-actor, staring-at-the-screen speech about love, destiny, friendship, hope, blah blah fricking blah. It's a cliche' my friend, and cliche's aren't good. Cliche's are unoriginal, and they make up this entire show. I'll stick with my anime', thank you very much.

Ready for the next guy to flame me to get modded up as always! Huzzah!

Re:What makes a good show?

[Anonymous Coward]

Buffy isn't written a show at a time, it's written a SEASON at a time, with the expectation being that you will watch them all, and mostly in order.

Good grief. What a bunch of fucking drones.

I am sick and tired of reading 'you've gotta watch 'em all.' You're all sounding like goddamn brats chasing after Pocket Monsters.

Re:What makes a good show?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I'll start with a technicality first. Buffy rarely kills vampires any more, it's all ghouls and zombies and the like.

Yeah, she seems to be more like "Buffy the Vampire Boffer."

Re:What makes a good show?

[Sancho]

Sorry if you thought my reply was a flame. It certainly wasn't meant to be. Just a counter to your statements.

As for your response, I don't see any direct reference to my post except for the "one season at a time" bit. You just sort of restate everything you said without giving any consideration to what I said, unless it's the fact that I agreed with you on Willow and said that it was the actress. I wasn't defending the show in that case. I was agreeing that she has very little range. I disagreed with your statements on the other characters.

Anyway, they don't all end in the manner you describe. In fact, a whole slew of them simply don't. I think it's glaringly obvious that you don't watch the show. You're probably right if you look only at first season, but that's the minority.

Re:What makes a good show?

[KlippoKlondike]

Ok, i apologize about thinking you were a flamer. I only restated what i said because I didn't think it got through to you. I disregarded some of your statements, but you also disregarded some of mine, so i figure we're even. Anyway, I've seen maybe 40-50 episodes, which is about a half or third of them all. My sister loves the show, and i gt stuck watching them since i've got nothing else to do. Anyway, most of the endings I've seen DO end that way, but maybe i'm getting the bad apples. Who knows. Well, that's enough of that. I've gotta stop putting this much time into discussing why i dislike this, oh well. Anyway, i still don't like the show ;-) and that's the end of that.

Re:What makes a good show?

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll all just agree that you are a lame-ass loser who "doesn't get it" (re: Buffy) and never will. Your loss, not ours.

Buffy jumped the shark

[IvyMike]

Despite six witty, intelligent seasons,

That would imply that they've been on the air for eight years. :)

Doesn't take itself seriously at all.

[Chuck Chunder]

The show continually pokes fun at itself. For example from the Episode that was aired here last night, Normal Again:

BUFFY: It stung me or something, and ... then I was like ... no. It, it wasn't "like." I *was* in an institution. There were, um ... doctors and ... nurses and, and other patients. They, they told me that I was sick. I guess crazy. And that, um, Sunnydale and, and all of this, it ... none of it ... was real.
XANDER: Oh, come on, that's ridiculous! What? You think this isn't real just because of all the vampires and demons and ex-vengeance demons and the sister that used to be a big ball of universe-destroying energy? (pauses, frowns)

What makes Buffy special is the depth of character and the seemlessness with which it flitters from comedy to drama. It's a fun show, even in this season which is considerably darker than those before it.

Re:Doesn't take itself seriously at all.

[Woko]

It's a fun show, even in this season which is considerably darker than those before it.

Its not darker, its just less interesting watching characters who are in a miserable rut week in and week out. The jokes, villains and hereos this season are just limp.

OMWF being the exception.

Re:Doesn't take itself seriously at all.

[gweihir]

Exactly! And at the same time they do have very deep stuff in there. "Normal again" deals with all reality being relative and only an assumption. There is no way to get more serious than that. (On the other hand, on that level reality starts to be hillarious...)

I really liked season 6. And I have no idea why Alyson Hannigan thinks that viewers may not like her character anymore after the end of season 6. (She said something about that in an interview...). I found "Scary Willow" really impressive.

Other higlights: OMWF, the Doublemeat Palace (that one hurt!), Spikes affair with Buffy, and other things.

Re:Doesn't take itself seriously at all.

[gweihir]

P.S.: Although I have to add that I miss Tara already. A pity that it had to hit her....

(As far as I understand it, Willow's lover had it comming. Would have hit Oz if he where still around.)

*ahem*

[Planesdragon]

I am a nerd. A married nerd (ok, that counts against me in 'nerdiness'), but I read /. and find most of the stories interesting.

More importantly, the *editors* and *story submitters* consider themselves to be nerds, and they consider these stories as something that "matters", in a "one story out of twenty daily stories" kind of way.

It's not like they're bitching about "One Life to Live" not getting an Emmy, after all. (Just a random soap opera name.)

Re:*ahem*

[paganizer]

Couldn't agree more. The focus, contrary to what many seem to think, is NOT "News for Anal retentive nerds who only think that what they are interested in matters". I watch the Buffy shows. It's the only thing I watch, besides the weather channel. Interesting concepts, Hot Babes, Well developed mythos, Hot Babes, probably the best (not saying much) treatment of Magik on TV, Hot Babes, etc. P.S. Did I mention the Hot Babes?

Re:*ahem*

[Planesdragon]

:) Hot babes, woot!

Buffy's little sister is hot

[Anonymous Coward]

I would enjoy boinking her.

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

hey you may have not noticed but buffy is a COMPLETE PILE OF SHIT. its only slightly redeeming feature is the slight hint of lesbianism and the odd cute actress. all well and good, but that does not make it a goo show.

have you ever thought the producers said to themselves... "hey our shows shit so if we drop in a slight hint of lesbianism and the odd cute actress then the geeks'll lap it up"

What the hell?

[Wakko Warner]

Why do Buffy fans act like this show is God's gift to television?

South Park has had witty, intelligent seasons, too, if that's the yardstick by which Emmy-worthy shows are to be judged.

- A.P.

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not seasons. Episodes. Of course Buffy hasn't had a full season without garbage either, but they just can't resist going overboard with stupid once in a while in South Park.

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're sig is just gay and mean. --Ungrounded Lightning Rod.

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

In relation to your sig-linked site, it should say "For fuck's sake people, come up with something better than this." No need for that first comma.

Re:What the hell?

[Wakko Warner]

Actually, a comma is required after an introductory prepositional phrase.

Try rearranging the sentence to read "For fuck's sake, come up with something better than this, people" or "People, for fuck's sake, come up with something better than this", and you'll see what I mean.

- A.P.

Re:What the hell?

[eatenn]

Why do Buffy fans act like this show is God's gift to television?

Cuz... we're fans?

Re:What the hell?

[RatFink100]

I can't speak for anyone else obviously but the thing that's gotten to me about Buffy is that's it's consistently very very well written. The acting is also good - but not necessarily better than you'd see elsewhere.

I think one of the reasons it's not as widely regarded as it could be is the lack of standalone episodes. You really have to get hooked on the seasonal storylines which is a barrier to the casual viewer.

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're sig is just gay and mean...

and true :)

Re:What the hell?

[Anonymous Coward]

For the same reason you cant get Seinfeld fans to shut the fuck up and understand you just are not in love with it as they are. No amount of telling me about what george Constanza did last episode will ever get me to like the show.

Can Someone Explain This...

[TomHandy]

I've seen tons of people here and on aintitcoolnews.com proclaim that this show is brilliant, witty, intelligent, etc.... I have tried watching a few episodes of this show but I just don't get what it is about this show that warrants this kind of praise. I'm willing to acknowledge that I may just not have seen enough, or maybe I only saw some bad episodes, but could someone who knows a lot about this show explain what makes it brilliant, witty, intelligent, etc.? The serious parts of the show seemed like typical teen drama fare, and I thought the horror parts were kind of generic and cliched. The relationship elements seemed ok, but nothing I would classify as brilliant. Thanks.

Re:Can Someone Explain This...

[SpryGuy]

That you don't "get it", doesn't mean that there's nothing there to get. Only that you aren't "getting it". Trust me, it's there. Buffy is a show about context as well. You can't just watch one random episode and really get it. You just can't. That's probably the biggest problem with the show. You have to watch a serious arc of episodes. Or you have to be pulled in by one of the few stand-alone episodes, like "Once More With Feeling", "The Body", or "Hush"... all were daring, original, and very worthy of Emmy nods. Beyond that, the show is amazingly consistent (with plot twists fore-shadowed sometimes several seasons in advance... it's amazing to watch repeats of previous episodes in previous seasons), and very self-referential. It's also amazingly witty and humerous, as well as using its contrived setup to explore real world situations and emotions with a much greater-than-expected depth.

Alas, too many people simply cannot get beyond the title of the show. They judge the book by its cover, and ignore the treasure within. I was a naysayer at first, but got sucked in around the end of the second season. I've been with it ever since, and it's practically the only show I look forward to and schedule my life around. It's amazingly creative and amazingly entertaining. But it's not spoon-fed pablum that you're just going to get on a casual watching of one or two random episodes.

Re:Can Someone Explain This...

[MoneyT]

Personaly, the random episode that hooked me (fortunately FX was running the etire series in reruns the next month) was an episode from I believe the 4th or 5th season in which we recieve the story of Spike as well as an interesting insight into the mind of the slayer (and potentialy any person who is trained to kill). It's a show you have to see a couple consecutive episodes, specificaly the ones without Riley (they had some rather obnoxious scenes).

The attraction...

[No Such Agency]

1. It's fun. It's enjoyable to watch, by and large.
2. It has attractive, intelligent and complex characters, especially compared to a lot of lesser "fantasy" type shows like "Charmed".
3. It's generally well-written. Ok, maybe the characters are a little more well-spoken and witty than most people are in Real Life, but who isn't on TV?
4. The production values are superb, the special effects are innovative and believable, and the action sequences are exciting.

I'd say those are good reasons to watch a TV show. Any deeper arguments about tapping into cultural mythos, teenage identity crisis etc. may be debatable, but are really just a bonus.

Re:The attraction...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think Rose McGowan is attractive? Your tastes are obviously somewhat limited in scope.

Amber Benson

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd go down on Amber Benson and wouldn't come up for months.

Yummmmy.

I'm in an infinite loop!

[Junks Jerzey]

Buffy is great!!

Corporations are evil!!

Buffy is the product of a corporation!!

What to do?!?!?!?!

(Yes, this is rhetorical. It's just greatly amusing to see people bash record companies and anyone else trying to make a buck, and then to see those same people fawn all over a corporately developed and corporately marketed TV show.)

Re:I'm in an infinite loop!

[Anonymous Coward]

bzzzt wrong. Joss Wheden has managed to create a show without WB (the Corp. you failed to mention) finally dropped the hugely popular show and UPN picked it up... as is. Joss enjoys complete creative control even more now. He has stated that the WP Drones simply didn't pay attention to the show.

Please, if you don't know what your talking about, don't knee-jerk post.

Re:I'm in an infinite loop!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody in Hollywood uses their real names. It doesn't make him any more artistic just because he paid $20 at the courthouse so he could show it on his drivers license to his goth groupies.

Re:I'm in an infinite loop!

[Junks Jerzey]

bzzzt wrong. Joss Wheden has managed to create a show without WB (the Corp. you failed to mention) finally dropped the hugely popular show and UPN picked it up... as is. Joss enjoys complete creative control even more now. He has stated that the WP Drones simply didn't pay attention to the show.

Sorry, you're completely wrong. Do you have any idea how many people and how much money it takes to produce a single episode of Buffy? Just watch the credits. It isn't some little band of artists against the world. It's a large number of people working in a corporate environment. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Re:I'm in an infinite loop!

[Citizen of Earth]

Just watch the credits. It isn't some little band of artists against the world.

Just watch the list of executive producers, co-executive producers, producers, co-producers, and assistant co-producers. If anything, the staff is top-heavy.

Re:I'm in an infinite loop!

[Quila]

You can pretty-much ignore the producer list. A producer or *-producer can be anyone, either someone directly involved with production, someone who lended a bit of influence to get the show going then bowed-out, or even just someone to whom the real producer owed a favor so put him in as an executive producer even though he has nothing to do with the show.

The problem got so bad that a while ago they had to set a rule restricting the number of producers you could put in the credits.

WB, UPN, whatever

[Bouncings]

WB. UPN. Am I supposed to make some kind of distinction?

Re:WB, UPN, whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

You're supposed to worry about shit like that.

Who let you in this place, anyway?

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

Boring and inane. Not News. Doesn't matter.

What exactly shocks you that they run crap like that?

OMG BUFFY IS THE BEST

[Anonymous Coward]

NOT

I am posting anonymously because I will get modded down for this:

1) why the fuck is this on slashdot

2) the show is UPN/WB SHIT no better than any other lame ass show and SHOULD NOT EVEN BE NOMINATED

3) there are WAY BETTER shows that DESERVE TO WIN

FUCK YOU SLASHDOT - WHY DON"T YOU JUST START COPYING AND PASTING FROM MSNBC.COM FROM NOW ON ALSO YOU SELLOUT WHORES

Is this what passes for good TV now?

[Fross]

I'm sure this'll get modded down as a troll just because I'm not praising buffy, but well, got karma to burn in order to make a point...

Is Buffy really what passes for good TV nowadays in the US? I'm in the situation of being exposed to it through my girlfriend and her friends, who enjoy it, and I really just can't get into it, as much as I try and want to.

I find it ludicrous that so many people here seem so enthralled with it - the show has little depth, the characters are one-dimensional, the situations often too... silly to be believable. the plots are predictable and simplistic, and thoroughly unstimulating. compare to xena, hercules or anything like that. it's similar - and they were pap too. for people who call themselves geeks, i would have thought more brain massaging was in order.

it's light entertainment, that sometimes should be laughed at because some of it is so bad. just like star trek, for instance, should. not that this is a bad thing, it's just bizarre to take it that seriously. the acting's just as bad, too! :)

if you ARE after a good vampire-centric series, you cannot go wrong with Ultraviolet [world-productions.com] (warning, audio on the frontpage!) that actually has a plot (several, wheels within wheels), characters with more than one motivational factor, great acting and directing, much more tension and drama, and overall just a different class.

if you DO like stuff like Buffy, i urge you to check it out and be blown away. The DVD's available in the US (Amazon.com and others), so you have no excuse.

Fross

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've finally put my betamax under a tombstone in the garden, but unless there's VHS as well as DVD, I'm going to have to claim excuse. I'm boycotting the man. Think of a palestinian (opposite of zionist) not smoking Marlboros for Lent.

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[Aash]

You had me right up until the point where you compared Buffy to Star Trek. Now I have to murder you.

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Is Buffy really what passes for good TV nowadays in the US? [and other countries].

I work for MSNBC. Yes....Anything else is too thought provocking and may loose us advertising revenue.

If you don't like Buffy we have Big Brother instead. Would you like to change the channel?

And please....Get away from that evil copyright violating machine, buy some Coke, sit your ass back on the couch, and go watch some TV (but don't complain about it or people might find something better to do!).

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[geekoid]

you know, the crappier something is, the more vocal there fans are, or so it seems.

I tried to like Buffy, but its bad on a great many levels.

I do like vampire shows(perferably the kind where a great many vampires die) so I will check out Ultraviolet. Thanks.

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh. You reveal just how little you get when you say "if you ARE after a good vampire-centric series." Buffy is not a Vampire Centric series. If you're watching it with that mindset, and expecting a really great show about vampires, you might as well watch Hamlet and get disappointed because he's not kicking the shit out of a vampire. You're expecting the wrong thing.

Buffy never was, isn't now, and never will be a "vampire-centric series." That's not what it's about. As mentioned by other posters, it's also not something that's well confined in an episodic manner. It's not Star Trek with vampires. There are big story arcs. Some episodes, like OMWF will stand comparably on their own, but to really enjoy the series, you must start at the beginning. Since you mentioned DVDs, seasons 1 and 2 are available at an altogether reasonable price. Get them, have fun.

The characters are not one dimensional. You are trolling. Good day.

Incidentally, were the show complete and utter shit, it would be worth watching for nothing more than Alyson Hannigan's wonderful visage. Mmm, Willow. Anyway, Buffy is a good show, and maybe you'll "Get It" one day =]

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[Fross]

Sigh. You reveal just how little you get when you say "if you ARE after a good vampire-centric series." Buffy is not a Vampire Centric series. If you're watching it with that mindset, and expecting a really great show about vampires, you might as well watch Hamlet and get disappointed because he's not kicking the shit out of a vampire. You're expecting the wrong thing.

You've sort of proved my point. though buffy features vampires et al, it isn't a vampire-centric series. it's just "yet another tv series" doing the exact same things with the same sorts of characters. the only difference is this "branding".

The characters are not one dimensional. You are trolling. Good day.

They are shallow characters with no further motivations, personal thoughts or misconceptions than is immediately apparent and rammed home (repeatedly) on the surface. if you think the characters are sophisticated, you need to broaden your horizons a bit.

Incidentally, were the show complete and utter shit, it would be worth watching for nothing more than Alyson Hannigan's wonderful visage. Mmm, Willow.

I think we've found the level here. heh.

Anyway, Buffy is a good show, and maybe you'll "Get It" one day =]

This is the attitude problem i don't understand from $scifishow fans. They think that if other people don't like it, that they don't "get it", that they obviously are not capable of seeing to the "higher level" that the program operates on. it's obvious that the program operates on a very low, common denominator level, to generate mass appeal.

To each their own, i've not said buffy is _bad_ per se, it's just not as good as some other stuff out there. I don't want to waste my time dissing a program to people who obviously like it, what I'm saying is, if you like it, you may like this other stuff _more_.

Go check out Ultraviolet. You will be pleasantly surprised and hopefully get something really good out of it. And then you can go back to watching Buffy. :)

Re:Is this what passes for good TV now?

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously have never given any real effort to actually watching Buffy. You simply cannot get past your own preconceptions and prejudices. The fact that you think that the show is shallow and obvious and written for the broad masses proves how utterly clueless you are. If you flipped everything you said about Buffy into its exact, 180 degree opposite, you would be closer to the truth.

That show sucks! Alias rocks!

[shodson]

Are you serious? That is the dumbest show! SMG is hot, but that's about all it has going. And I guess you guys like to watch Angel too?

FWIW, I think the best show on TV is ALIAS!

Re:That show sucks! Alias rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably like Alias just because the chick is really fucking hot.

Angel is a good show though. It's more dark and "serious" than Buffy.

Wiity

[ZioPino]

Six witty season ? Get real !

Alias = rehash La Femme Nikita

[Fanolex]

point blank

It's the frickin emmy awards! Who cares?

[Codex The Sloth]

What next, are we going to get in a unroar when the grammy's come out too? There are things worth getting worked up about and things (like say award shows) that I could not give a crap ass about.

And yes I've seen buffy and (this is just my opinion) it sucks ass...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled slashdot.

Re:It's the frickin emmy awards! Who cares?

[eatenn]

What next, are we going to get in a unroar when the grammy's come out too? There are things worth getting worked up about and things (like say award shows) that I could not give a crap ass about.

Right you are. What people deem "worth getting worked up about," however, is up to each individual person. Not you.

If I were the executive producer of a television show, and there was a committee of people who recognize excellence in television, I would find it insulting that my show isn't even given the opportunity to compete.

The fans are going to love the show regardless of the awards it wins or doesn't win. Joss and Co. (at the very least) deserve to be given a chance instead of being insulted.

Ok,

[Anonymous Coward]

Before the 1st idiot says "im a nerd, and i watch tv" this has nothing to do w/news for nerds. I'm a nerd, and i wipe my ass, are we going to have the sales report for charmin next? wtf does this have to do with anything????

How sad are you?

[Anonymous Coward]

You post to a topic you claim not to care about, to anonymously tell a world (who does not know you or care about your position) that you don't care about the topic. That's just beyond lame. Maybe you should get a hobby, like model trains or crossword puzzles or something. Better yet, get a dog so you have somebody to talk to who won't point out what a sad, pathetic loser you are.

Buffy is good?

[ebuilder]

Really? I have a very hard time seeing what anyone sees in "Buffy" . Besides it being mildly amusing I just don't see it..

You want proof? Here it is...

[Vought 28]

Look at the 7 seasons of Star Trek : the Next Generation. Patric Stewart is considered one of the best actors and television by many but he never recieved any awards to my knowlege. Even the work by Bret Spiner, Data, was magnificent. And, the series had masterfull writing. And, it pioneered the super villians, the Borg. What happened ? Nothing. No emmys. No respect. Yet the episodes are still watchable !

Wanna know why Buffy gets ignored?

[copponex]

U P N

Oh, also because the show is a soap opera about the undead. How innovative!

-Dean

no surprise ---

[Anonymous Coward]

because.................

buffy sucks.

The first DVD on eBay went for over $200...

[koganuts]

I remember the first one listed on eBay sold for $455.00. Unbelievable. Show you how dedicated/hardcore those Buffy fans are. :)

Re:The first DVD on eBay went for over $200...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rob, That is NOT a valid use of subscription funds! There will be a meeting about this tomorrow morning. No wonder we are retching cash. Kathleen McElwee

Eh?

[GigsVT]

Isn't that show about a teenage witch and some talking black cat? Why all the buzz over some stupid sitcom?

Re:Eh?

[Ziviyr]

Nope, its about Sarah Michelle Gellar in a murderous campaign against photosensitive people.

Re:Eh?

[An Onerous Coward]

That cat has several Broadway productions under its belt, and is widely recognized as the greatest non-human actor since Flipper went belly-up. Certainly he's more talented than that Lassie hack. Show the cat some respect, man.

Re:Eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

That sorta proves the point: Buffy gets no respect from suit-wearing morons and people whose knowledge of the subject does not go beyond vague impressions left over from channel surfing. You are probably thinking of that silly "Sabrina the teenaged witch" show, which featured a talking cat. There are no talking cats in Buffy.

christ

[Anonymous Coward]

there is nothing 'witty' or 'intelligent' about
buffy the vampire slayer. it is an idiot-fest
paraded about by morons targeted at a population
of emotionally stunted fantasists. i was conned
in to watching a part of the musical - i made it
through exactly 5 minutes of excessively poor
singing and dialogue before stabbing my finger so
violently down on the remote control that i came
away with several fractures.

i'd honestly rather watch survivor

or static

Re:christ

[SN74S181]

We don't get to watch static anymore. Most new video equipment throws up that 'blue screen' like we'd get in trouble from staring at random bitmaps or something.

Well kinda...

[Codex The Sloth]

Well I said I didn't care about it. First Amendment, blah blah blah.

If I were the executive producer of a television show, and there was a committee of people who recognize excellence in television, I would find it insulting that my show isn't even given the opportunity to compete.

True, but the Emmy's ain't it. They don't recognize excellence in television. The recognition of industry slimeballs? An odd facination people have with ranking art to find out which is the "best"? The media whores (Leeza Gibbons, I'm looking your way) who harp over how "robbed" someone was. And they have so many "award" shows now that it's harder not to win one.

If you want to appreciate it, watch it.

Re:That show sucks! Alias rocks!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what, I really dig her, but I can't get into the show. SMG is alright, but I used to be able to sit through Buffy. Now I choke on the political crap.

Yawn...

[thales]

It wouldn't matter if Buffy was on the ballot. It wouldn't matter if Buffy was the best damn show on TV (Which IMHO it isn't). It still wouldn't win because it's too far out of the mainstream to get the votes. Sorry to bust your bubble but the emmys (and the Oscars and the Grammys, etc) aren't about which is best (a subjective view), they are about self promotion by industry insiders. These people consider Buffy a silly cult show not worthy of their attention let alone their votes. Deal with it, the emmys will go to bland heavly promoted trash or Pompus BS that pretends to be artistic, just like they allways do.

Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episodes?

[Sancho]

I really have to wonder how much of a chance these people have given Buffy. I used to think it was the dumbest show on TV, based solely on the premise and having seen one episode. When Buffy died, it made big news on a lot of sites and with several of my friends who were fans of the show. Then FX started rerunning it, and I gave it a shot. I came in around the second season and was hooked. The dialogue is witty (although sometimes predictable). I fell in love with the characters after about three episodes, and began to really care about what happens to them. That's the mark of good characterization. The plots are often contrived, but they're hilarious.

You really have to watch several consecutive episodes of Buffy to "get" it. The show is meant to be viewed as a whole, not as individual episodes. My bet is that most people who immediately discount it have seen fewer than three episodes, and probably didn't come to the show with an open mind.

Twpo Emmys Actually

[teraph]

with the show's nine nominations to date (with no wins) being mostly in technical categories.

It won for Make-up and Music Composition in 1998.

So i'm not the only one...

[ferratus]

I'm glad I read your post...I was feeling left out :) I completly agree with what you say. I think it's impossible to enjoy Buffy if you don't watch it consistently. The references to previous episodes are numerous (and often funny) and that's part of the reason why someone who watches once in a while won't enjoy it.

Once More With Feelings, while a stand-alone episode still has so many references that i'm sure it isn't as good if you haven't seen the rest. Buffy's death, her emotional status at that point, willow and tara, etc...

The ultimate proof that occasional watching won't do it is the many posts here that says the show has no dept, that it's a soap, etc...

If they only knew...it's about as un-soapish (whoa, new word !) as it can get.

Anyway, I'm glad i've seen every episodes from day 1. I know it's great show...everyone else is just missing something great. Hopefully, the dvds will help.

The bad thing about Buffy

[markz]

I watched half an episode a few months ago, and it was interesting. Never seen it before. Then I watched two episodes earlier this spring - wow. It was really good, but I was really confused. I decided I had to watch them all in order. I bought Season 1 on DVD, and it was amazing (would have bought them all if I could have). So I turned to my computer and p2p friends, and managed to get every single ep except one ("Beer Bad" from (I believe) Season 3). I also taped most of Seasons 4&5 from the 4x a day FX reruns. Everything made so much more sense seeing it in order. Generally shows like this annoy me (24) where you miss one show and you're lost, but it's so worth the extra effort to catch it. I've heard Angel isn't as bad, but I never really got into it (and I wasn't a big fan when he was on Buffy), so I just get pissed when they do crossovers and I miss it.

The episodes listed above ("Hush", "The Body", and of course "OMwF") by Golias are certainly absolutely fantastic for the reasons given, but my favorite is probably "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" from Season 2. The scene with Xander walking down the hall and the music..... Too much.

Earlier seasons were a bit better about being "comedy, horror, and kungfu action - all in the name", so I'm glad to see that Season 7 is supposed to be going "back to the basics". I remember many times earlier on actually being scared, and laughing out loud during the same episodes - it was great.

Cool.

Re:The bad thing about Buffy

[Anonymous Coward]

Angel is also a good show (but a bit darker, with less of the humor of Buffy; a bit more serious). Give it a try; it also needs to be seen in order, as it is also a strongly story-arc driven show. Angel is a good character; also Cordelia is an excellent character, fully fledged out now, no longer the catty bimbo she was on Buffy.

Real Doll!

[23_Elders]

It's a Real Doll made to look like Sarah Gellar of course.

Better writing than Buffy - some examples

[WIAKywbfatw]

I live in the UK, not the US, so I don't consider this list exhaustive, but here are a handful of US imports that I watch that have award-calibre writing:

1. Law & Order : A cops and lawyers drama series with some excellent dialogue. Amongst the regulars, Det. Lennie Briscoe (played by Jerry Orbach) and EADA Jack McCoy (Sam Waterston) have the best lines - perhaps some of the wittiest and sharpest on TV at the moment. The other members of the cast are less blessed - because the characters they play are less vivacious - but they still get to deliver some cutting one-liners.

2. The West Wing : What can I say? The best thing on TV. Well written, well acted, thought-provoking yet often heart-touching drama. OK, so President Jed Bartlett (Martin Sheen) lives in a world with fewer shades of grey than the real one but the contrast between a President that knows what he's talking about and the clown that's currently in the Oval Office is striking - as is the quality of this show.

3. C.S.I.: Crime Scene Investigation : Once again, great penmanship but complimented by some great special effects. Gil Grissom (William L. Petersen), head of the crime lab, gets the best lines (as all male leads tend to do) but even the lab geek, Greg Sanders (Eric Szmanda), gets some smart scenes of his own.

There are others that I can mention too - mini-series such as 24 and Band Of Brothers spring to mind - but Buffy The Vampire Slayer is way, way down the list.

Re:Better writing than Buffy - some examples

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to import Six Feet Under and The Wire while you're at it.

Re:Better writing than Buffy - some examples

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be joking.

1. Law and Order. This show has zero character development and is one of the most one-note shows on TV. Have you ever seen anything of any of the characters lives outside of their jobs? No. All you ever see is each character furrowing their brow over the crime of the day. Nothing else. No jokes, no romance, no action. Boring boring boring.

2. The west wing. Liberal fantasy, and almost every character talks in this stacato jabber-jabber style. I don't like people who talk like that in real life.

Re:Better writing than Buffy - some examples

[junkgrep]

I beg to differ. When Orbach is given some real screen time to act, he's great: but for most shows, his "witty" lines consist of looking at a dead body and uttering a painful pun. "Boy, you sure got shot in the head".... beat... into credits.
These days, this show is all about McCoy. Everyone else CAN put in good performances, but are rarely called upon to do so. The new lawyer, blonde chick from Angel, is just awful (her line readings are robotic, right down to her neverhchanging dead-eyed glazed stare).

Re:Better writing than Buffy - some examples

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Law and Order. This show has zero character development and is one of the most one-note shows on TV. Have you ever seen anything of any of the characters lives outside of their jobs? No. All you ever see is each character furrowing their brow over the crime of the day. Nothing else. No jokes, no romance, no action. Boring boring boring.

Who cares about the characters? Seriously. L&O is about the crime, period. The main characters merely a vehicle for delivering an intriguing courtroom thriller. If you find that genre boring, fine, it's a boring show then. But complaining about the characters is like saying The Twilight Zone sucks because we never learn anything about Rod Serling (note how I avoid bad Twilight Zone jokes by not saying he's one-dimensional).

One thing I loved about the first season of XFiles was that the main characters tended to be outside observers. They were rarely directly involved in the spookiness; Bad Things didn't happen to them. I loved the rest of the show, too, but the first season is unique in that way.

Peer pressure

[fm6]

Naw, it was all about Anakin wanting to ride in the front seat. Compared to EP 2, Rug Rats is more grown up (and has better dialog!), never mind Buffy.

Your critique makes me think you have Buffy confused with an After School Special.

Re:Peer pressure

[unicron]

No, like I said above, Buffy is nothing more than 90210 with vampires.

Re:Peer pressure

[RatFink100]

Wow! We've never ever ever heard that one before!

How many episodes did you watch before coming to that astounding conclusion? A whole one or just the teaser?

Actually, I have seen it...

[Tom7]

Actually, I have seen this "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on TV and it was pretty bad. Maybe that's the reason?

Re:Actually, I have seen it...

[MoneyT]

Have you watched a couple consecutive episodes? That's really the only way to judge a series. The first couple Buffy Eps I saw, I thought it was dumb. After about 4 epsiodes though, I stared seeing a bit more in the program, the show actualy deals with real human events (baring the demons unless you speak metaphoricaly) and is immensely quoteable and funny.

But as I said, you need to watch multiple consecutive episodes of a series before you can judge it. When I saw the first episode of 24, i thought it was incredible, the idea was interesting, the show had cool action sequences and it just seemed great. But after the 5th epsiode, it got repetative and boring. Yeah, 24 was OK, but it wasn't great like my first impression said it would be,

When Buffy's Mom Died...

[jeff13]

When Buffy's Mom Died...
That episode might change some minds about Buffy The Vampire Slayer. After that one I knew this show could do anything.

The show is a mix of layers. On top it's the goofiest thing... a valley girl who is the Slayer in a California town; SunnyDale... get it? Ha Bloody Ha. Lost Boys rip off with a twist? duh. The movie sucked (except for Paul Rueben, but I digress). But the show built layer after layer over the years. In the beginning it was a mid-season replacement for WB syndication. It was a filler show, if ya get me. But the high school cast clicked, Joss Whedon got away with a very symbolic story telling method. He was a master with the metaphor and irony, something some people fail to get *looks around the /. postings*. Even then there were surprising shows, the "robot girlfriend" one comes to mind. It was clever, scary, and made the point not with preaching but a terrific ending scene with the Buffster and the shebot talking on the swings set as the robots batteries died. It's also cumulative in that Joss never forgets a character or leaves holes in the show, the past always comes back to bite the Scoobies in the ass! Amy was a rat for, like, 4 seasons! - How ya been Amy? A rat... you? lol! And the lines! Oh, I've laughed out loud with this show, how many shows do that to ya?
Buffy quote -
Giles: Uh, Buffy! I believe the uh... subtext here is rapidly becoming, uh, text.


You may not think it's Playhouse 90 but it's up there with Alias and such imho but the silly and, shall we say, colourful reviews seem to me to be from people who really could care less. Posting isn't a Pavlovian response thing kids, put down the Jolt can! Sheesh! But to those who still don't get it - they don't seem to dislike it. potato potaaato. It's still about teens, and now collage going adults... well, Zander didn't, Willow is an addict coming off a huge bender, Giles moved to England, Tara is dead (Tara! Oh man! Sadness :( ) Buffy works at a fast food joint (the chicken and beef are injected together! (mmm, beef/chicken goodness), and Dawn is so cute, but if she doesn't stop whining someone's gonna smack her. It's been a great season as the teen stuff has given away to sex, violence, drugs, and ... did I mention the sex? Consequences, lust, mistakes, real life (they are poor, Slayers don't get cheques), and real guns. No flesh wound, Tara is dead. *sob*. Buffy IS an annoying bitch, she has been for three seasons... even she knows that. It's been fun to watch as the show matures from the symbolism of the first few seasons (blowing up the school, buffy dying and coming back on another Network, lol! Joss brings us right along). The monsters and fantasy aspect has always been a thin skin on the show, but that's hard to see right away. Joss is very aware of how writers have used metaphor to tell stories that networks/execs/your Mom prolly wouldn't allow. This last season, on UPN, has been far far more adult than most TV. Seems to me many younger fans love the show because they found it talked to them, not down while at the same time telling stories about alienation, sex, corruption, bad parents, bad school officials, sex abuse, etc. Man, this the show I wish I had, so I appreciate it's solid "real" setting. The show where the bitter old Mom body-switched with her daughter so she could make the Cheerleading team started off pretty light and funny but to some high school goers it hits a nerve like a knife.

That's good enough for an Emmy right?

Re:When Buffy's Mom Died...

[Chris Johnson]

The difference between Buffy and garbage is, in Buffy when the teen kung fu wisecracking heroine gets her vampire boyfriend to play along the Big Bad Villain by acting as though he's gone bad until she (Faith, the villain) betrays the plans and then Buffy drops the chains with a 'One word? *clank* Psyche...' the aftermath is not her reuniting with vampire boyfriend cheerily. The aftermath has none of the bravado of the 'performing as Slayer' scene, and the specter of the guy turned bad is too disturbing to shake off. There are consequences.

More on the Buffy/Angel deal (and that's still very early in the run): when they confront the evil Mayor who is going to turn into a giant snake demon and eat most of the town, and he taunts them... well, first of all, this is the kind of guy who has 'become invincible' on his to-do list alongside 'Plumber Union reschedule' and 'call temp agency'. It's amazing and brilliant how deadpan the guy is, and it gives him convincingness in a bizarre, disturbing and appealing way. Secondly, when he confronts Buffy (the mortal superhero) and Angel (the immortal vampire), rather than go off in a predictable immortal supervillain kind of way he acknowleges he's going to kill them both but takes a moment to criticise the stupidity of their romantic involvement! Out of genuine interest and experience! "I married my Edna Mae in ought three and I was with her right until the end. Not a pretty scene. Wrinkled and senile and cursing me for my youth, it wasn't our happiest time."

And he's right.

That's Buffy for you. Everything, everything that happens has consequences, nobody is a bit part. It takes its bizarre premise utterly seriously (or does it? In one sixth-season episode even this is brought into question, in a chilling, existential way. For those who know what ep I'm talking about- what is the LAST scene of that episode?) and develops it more brilliantly than just about any other show, past or present, I can think of.

The only comparison I can think of is Patrick McGoohan's famous 'The Prisoner'... and lots of people didn't 'get' that one, either.

It doesn't matter if it never gets an Emmy. It's made history, instead.

Am I the only person in here...

[G-funk]

.... Who thinks buffy is crap? It's drawn out, the plots are stupid, characters come back from the dead more often than freddy krueger (see "nightmare on elm street 12: we swear this is the last one"), and the only reason it's popular is because buffy is hot (to the jocks) and willow is hotter (to us geeks at least).

/me dons asbestos pants

Re:Am I the only person in here...

[Peale]

The only character to come back from the dead is Buffy, herself.

Re:Am I the only person in here...

[nagora]

Willow is hotter

+5 Insightful!

TWW

For those who missed it, the news:

[Anonymous Coward]

The news is as follows:

Buffy is a show that has had a number of episodes that some people felt were worthy of nomination.

Buffy has been around a long time, and has a lot of fans. Further, it gets good ratings. (I don't think this is why shows *should* get Emmies, but look at who wins...)

Buffy has never won an Emmy for anything serious.

Okay, so here comes the news...
For mysterious reasons, Buffy was *excluded* from being eligible for nomination.

The news isn't that the show didn't win. It isn't that it wasn't nominated. It is that, for some reason, the show lost its chance to be nominated.

Oh, and Buffy isn't just for goths. And Goths aren't a bunch of wannabe undead. Get out some time, meet some people. Stereotypes suck, especially coming from Geeks... :)

No

[ttfkam]

I love the show. I watch the show. I bought the DVD set.

It is NOT like stopping black folks from voting. Hmmm... Yeah, I could see how you would draw a parallel... TV show is denied opportunity to get Hollywood award. Segment of population denied rights as citizens.

Re:No

[Sancho]

The point isn't the severity of the restriction, but that the restriction is taking place because of elitism. That was the first thing to come to my mind. Obviously the loss of a civil right has greater weight and is actually important whereas a silly award is not, but the parallel is there. Guys with power removing choice from those without it.

Re:No

[Latent IT]

*sigh*

You dumbass little troll. You want choice?

http://SOMETHING OTHER THAN SLASHDOT.COM/ORG/NET

K? thx.

They said it themselves...

[runlvl0]

"Anya: Clearly our number is a retro-pastiche. It's never going to be a break-away pop hit."

This would be ...

[spress]

the "News for nerds" part, rather than "the stuff that matters"

the Oscars this year had a similar clerical error

[Bogatyr]

from
http://news.theolympian.com/specialsections/Acad em yAwards/20020130/9313.shtml

"``[A Beatiful] Mind'''s Jennifer Connelly is perhaps the most shocking SAG nominee announced Tuesday -- not because she was nominated, but because she was nominated in the ``wrong'' category.Because of a clerical error at Universal Pictures, Connelly was submitted to SAG for consideration in the best-actress category. But in ads in Hollywood trade newspapers, Universal has been pushing Connelly for a best-supporting-actress Oscar nomination. "

Gee

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, I sure wish I could have voted for Buffy! God knows that show has the best plot EVER

"She has to kill vampires? What a great story!"

that's because Buffy is a waste of digital video

[Anonymous Coward]

What a pathetic show, the Love Boat of the 2000's

Now "The Soprano's" that is a kick ass show.

The first 13 channels have lost thier luster, they should just die....

That's funny....

[Servo]

because that show never impressed me either. Go figure!

great stuff...

[Anonymous Coward]

and 6x07 rocks. Posting from germany, watching the great mpegs available. I hate synchronizing, anyway.

stay tuned...

Very very very dumb

[wackybrit]

When shows have episodes that totally depart from the usual 'reality' of the show, it's destined for disaster.

The Simpsons encountered this with the 'Behind The Laughter' episode. Every prank the Simpsons pulled up to that point was within a defined reality of The Simpsons being a 'real' cartoon family. That episode f*cked it all up.

And the same with this 'musical' episode. Buffy fights vampires, she doesn't dance and sing with them! I'm all for fantasy and adventure, but when you pull a set of characters from a show and make them do what the characters WOULD NOT EVER DO FOR 'REAL' then you've ballsed the whole thing up.

Ah well, at least Buffy has now 'jumped the shark'.

Re:Very very very dumb

[tfoss]

Did you even see the episode?

It actually fits in amazingly well, considering the major departure in form. The whole point is that this, like everything else in Buffy-world, is caused by some really bad creature. They admit the singing/dancing are not normal, not pretend to try and work it into the world of the show...

-Ted

Re:Very very very dumb

[wackybrit]

Yeah, I saw it. Not all of it, but I saw it.

The whole point is that this, like everything else in Buffy-world, is caused by some really bad creature.

Must it must be a f'king dumb 'bad creature'. If I were a bad creature and could get people to do stupid shit, I'd have it so that Sarah Michelle Gellar rips her clothes off.

Re:Very very very dumb

[lightPhoenix]

Then you didn't actually see the episode, because there was actually a reason for their dancing. Hell, the episode gave small explanations left and right even, before the proper reaon came forward. So go complain about jumping the shark elsewhere.

Re:Very very very dumb

[Ioldanach]

The whole point is that this, like everything else in Buffy-world, is caused by some really bad creature.

Must it must be a f'king dumb 'bad creature'. If I were a bad creature and could get people to do stupid shit, I'd have it so that Sarah Michelle Gellar rips her clothes off.

And if you'd watched any of the shows, and particularly all of that show, you'd have noticed that firstly, most creatures have a limited sphere of influence (i.e., they can only do X), and this one's sphere of influence was song and dance. Secondly, the episode was completely in character with the sole exception that the people were singing and dancing, the effects of the creature. Third, the creature wasn't actually "bad", it was called, it answered, and the person who called it got what they asked for. If it actually got what it asked for, that might've been bad, but not evil, just bad. All in all, I found the creature to be a pretty cool, rather amusing demon.

In some subsets of fantasy or science fiction, a common theme is the existence of nonhuman intelligent creatures and/or paranormal phenomena. A smaller subset of that set is where those creatures or phenomena are normal and taken seriously. The problem with this is that there seem to be very few people with the right sort of imagination to take that world and be satisfied with a story set there. Buffy is set in the "real world", ostensibly, but it is really set in a world where demons and vampires exist and are taken seriously, at least by each other and some humans. Most humans go about ignorant of their existence, so the setting is actually very much a fantasy world, with a gloss of reality. Unfortunately, many people don't have this sort of imagination, and when confronted with this it all just seems silly, and they can't get into the story because their attempt at keeping the world within a preconceived worldview fails and suspension of disbelief cannot occur.

Re:Very very very dumb

[jonerik]

The Simpsons encountered this with the 'Behind The Laughter' episode. Every prank the Simpsons pulled up to that point was within a defined reality of The Simpsons being a 'real' cartoon family. That episode f*cked it all up.

Actually, my take on that episode was that it shouldn't be assumed to be in the rest of the series' continuity any more than the annual Halloween episodes are, or the spinoff episode was. It was just a funny episode that stood alone outside of the show's regular continuity.

In an interview on NPR a couple of years back, Harry Shearer argued that the episode that actually wrecked the show's continuity was the one in which Principal Skinner was revealed to actually be Armand Tanzarian, a teenaged hood who had joined the army during Vietnam and was taken under the wing of the real Seymour Skinner, who was assumed to have been killed in action. Shearer was livid with the show's writers, who basically ejected eight seasons of character development in one fell swoop.

"I'm under your spell"

[Danny Rathjens]

It's been eight months and I still have that song get stuck in my head every couple weeks.

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought that Joss Whedon (creator) named the series "Buffy" to filter out stupid judgemental people. If you can't look past the blonde heroine and the dumb name, you're really not going to get how witty the series is.

You can always tell somebody who has only seen 2 or 3 episodes of Buffy: they say it's stupid and shallow.

People who have seen 3+ episodes love it without reservations. Critics almost universally love it.

So: If you don't like Buffy, there's no reason for you to post your opinions, because we know you're posers and you haven't really seen it. If you've really seen it, then we know you like it.

Quality is like that.

Re:May have this first post?

[Anonymous Coward]

The real disgrace is, after all these years goatse.cx has still not been awarded a webby! We must do something about this terrible injustice! Trolls Unite!

Look at it this way

[jcsehak]

Imagine that the voters actually go through all the trouble of "writing in" OMWF, and it wins the emmy. It would be unprecedented. All of the sudden, Whedon's emmy would be 100 times more valuable than it would've had the voting been fair. Yeah, the whole thing stinks, (even though awards are nothing more than great marketing tools (and ego fodder)), but there's a possibility here for the show to get some MAD props.

This show has already jumped the shark.

[Blaede]

The musical was the point where Buffy jumped the shark. I thought I was watching Cop Rock all over again, except with vampires and bad singing.

Re:This show has already jumped the shark.

[Rysc]

Buffy jumped the shark at the end of season 2. Okay, maybe somewhere in the middle of 3... The trouble is that I keep fidning really worthwhile stuff later on, so it's hard to tell, but I think BtVS peaked at the end of season two. Up to that point (inclusive) it had been very nearly flawless, afterwards it's been a very, very slow decline, with occasional spikes of goodness. I was sure that season 4 was the death toll of the series, but then season 5 happened. While it was weaker than it could have been, it was about as good as season 3. Then there was season 6. I think it's jus gettoing harder to achieve the level of quality they used to, so more and more little holes are showing up. tears in the fabric of a great show.

I hope it does end after season 7, so that all of my memories will be good ones, rather than ending after a sad decline into gimmickry and idiocy.

You people are on crack

[vandelais]

Even the shittiest episodes of NYPD Blue are better than any Buffy episode. The show sucks; face it.
Go back to buying your Britney Spears and Weird Al albums.

any virgin 30 year old males in the academy?

[Anonymous Coward]

That might help the chances. The only people I've known that seriously watched the show were guys that had trouble getting dates. I'm not trying to be mean and my small sample hardly is conclusive but it seems the same reasoning that the generates disbelief over linux desktop numbers is being used here.

Umm, maybe it's just the show

[n-baxley]

I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but maybe the reason that it doesn't win emmy's is because it's not that great a show. let me see if I get the plot down right. A hot girl runs around in tight shirts and does kung foo on the undead. Is that pretty much it? Oh wait, this year they stole a line from Drew Carey and did a dance number. Wow, the originality is just killer. Seriously people. The main characters name is Buffy!

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's proto-typical defensiveness about cult crap, ya know.

Buffy has been compared to Shakespeare

[Anonymous Coward]

A reviewer for the Globe and Mail (one of the largest Canadian newspapers) compared the writing in Buffy The Vampire Slayer to that of Shakespeare. It's not the first time I have heard that comparison, and I have thought it myself.

Just because Buffy is partly a farce, does not make it bad. Half of Shakespeare's plays were farces. You have to listen to the dialogue, with it's double entendres, comic timing, and cultural references, or watch the way the show toys with our expectations about the horror gendre. It really is ingeneous.

Also, while she may not be Meryl Streep, Sarah Michelle Gellar is a fine actress. So are the rest of the cast. Again, you have to remember that the show is part farce -- most of the time they're not supposed to be taking themselves too seriously. But to really appreciate what they can do, you have to watch some of the seriously dramatic scenes. In SMG's case, for example, that might include scenes such as when Buffy's mother died (I've never seen it done better), or when Buffy is going to sacrifice herself for her sister Dawn, or when Buffy is sitting with the "dying" robot girlfriend (which was an obvious nod to Of Mice And Men).

To give you more of an idea, I'll close with some samples:

===

[Buffy's Watcher, Giles, is watching auditions for the school talent show...]

BUFFY: If it isn't the great producer!

XANDER: Had to see this to believe it.

GILES: Oh. You three.

BUFFY: The school talent show. How ever did you finagle such a primo assignment?

GILES: Our new Führer, Mr. Snyder.

WILLOW: I think they call 'em 'principals' now.

GILES: Mm. He thought it would behoove me to have more contact with the students. I did try to explain that my vocational choice of librarian was a deliberate attempt to minimize said contact, but, uh, he would have none of it.

BUFFY: Giles, unto every generation is born one who must run the annual talentless show. You cannot escape your destiny.

GILES: If you had any shred of decency, you would have participated, or at least, um, helped.

BUFFY: Nah! I think I'll take on your traditional role... and watch!

XANDER: And mock!

WILLOW: And laugh!

BUFFY: O-kay. I think maybe we better leave our Mr. Giles to this business he calls a show.

(The three of them get up and start back up the aisle. Principal Snyder is waiting there for them.)

BUFFY: Principal Snyder!

SNYDER: So. We think school events are stupid, and we think authority figures are to be made fun of.

BUFFY: No! No, we don't. W-unless you do.

SNYDER: And we think our afternoon classes are optional. All three of you left campus yesterday.

BUFFY: Yeah, but we were fighting a demon...

SNYDER: Fighting?

BUFFY: Not fighting.

XANDER: No, we, uh, left to *avoid* fighting.

SNYDER: Real anti-social types. You need to integrate into this school, people. I think I just found three eager new participants for the talent show.

BUFFY: What?

XANDER: No!

WILLOW: Please?

SNYDER: I've been watching you three. Always getting into one scrape or another.

BUFFY: Well, we're really, really sorry, but about the talent show, pleeease, you can't make us...

SNYDER: (interrupts) My predecessor, Mr. Flutie, may have gone in for all that touchy-feely relating nonsense, but he was eaten. You're in *my* world now. And Sunnydale has touched and felt for the last time.

XANDER: Can I just mention, that detention is a time-honored form of punishment?

SNYDER: I know the three of you will come up with a wonderful act for the school to watch. And mock. And laugh......at. (leaves)

XANDER: No!

===

Here are some more that I like:

The evil, powerful Glory first meets Buffy

The dying Monk explains how they created Buffy's sister

Buffy meets Dracula

The Mayor gives a graduation speech before he ascends to demonhood

Buffy is given the ability to read minds (V.O. = voice over = thoughts)

Buffy reading the teacher's thoughts to one-up an annoying classmate

Buffy's roommate Kathy is annoying, and too nice -- she must be evil

Watchers Wesley and Giles are captured by the demon Balthazar

Buffy's impression of Ghandi

Willow is nervous about her new skills at witchcraft

Three would-be-evil nerds have hired a demon to rob a bank

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[JabberWokky]

Then FX started rerunning it, and I gave it a shot. I came in around the second season and was hooked.

I pretty much followed that same path. I despise Xena, Mutant X and the like, and always saw it as Xena 90210. I'm not a big fan of television, truth be told. I prefer to read.

But I have loads of friends who are tremendous Buffy fans - most have their PhDs in various fields, and are in their 40s. I finally gave it a shot when I saw that the episode "Hush" was coming on - I recalled that it had been nominated for an Emmy. So I gave it a shot. Now (thanks to FX running two episodes everyday), I've seen every Buffy episode, and think it's, by and large, one of the best written shows around.

As somebody else said in reply to this same message, if you see one or two episodes, you'll likely dismiss it. I did. I thought it was cheap escapist trash, a "Seventeen Magazine meets Vampire the Masquerade" series. It's only after you get into it that you see the subtlty of some of the things going on, and appreciate the Oscar Wilde like banter.

Good stuff, for those who appreciate it. For those who don't - ah, well. You have different tastes. It's not like that's a horrible thing.

--
Evan "Who prefers Vanilla, but can still be on social terms with those who prefer Chocolate"

ASN

[Citizen of Earth]

Already saw it. Buffy is on on Monday nights on ASN in Canada. Ha Ha!. Here's hoping that YTV in Canada shows the un-cut episode!

Re:ASN

[Citizen of Earth]

Already saw it. Buffy is on on Monday nights on ASN in Canada. Ha Ha!. Here's hoping that YTV in Canada shows the un-cut episode!

YTV is indeed showing the entire episode uncut. What a relief that some airwaves aren't dominated by corporate greed.

BuffyBot !!

[Chibi]

Dear sir, I think you mean the BuffyBot!

For those of you who do not know, there was a point where Buffy was dead (OK, so this happens a couple of times :-). Buffy's friends create a robot version of Buffy, so all the demons do not know she is dead. If they knew this, the demons would realize there would be no one to stop them. So, the BuffyBot was a preventative measure. (Think a blonde firewall)

And before you ask how a bunch of kids could create a robot...one of them is a geeky computer-type (who is also a babe), and there was also an early episode that featured a crazy robot (which maybe they reverse-engineered?).

The BuffyBot did have flaws. It's AI wasn't as good as it could have been, and the robot wasn't very durable. However, these factors can be excused, given that it still looked great in leather pants. >:)

Re:BuffyBot !!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not exactly what happened. Spike, who had fallen in love with buffy, got Warren to make a robot version of Buffy to use as a sex slave. Spike knew Warren could do this because Warren had made a girlfriend for himself that Buffy had to go against. Eventually, Buffy and the crew found out about the robot, and conficated it from Spike. Willow wanted to understand the technology more. They used the bot as a decoy when facing off with Glory, and after that episode (which is where Buffy had died).

Season six implied that Warren's technical prowess was magical in origin.

Re:You want proof? Here it is...

[Anonymous Coward]

"No respect."

Oh, TNG has respect. It's just it comes from the fans, and not the award-handing-out suits.

I think having a good show that people enjoy is better then crap with statues.

Who needs Emmys?

[bovril]

Buffy getting an Emmy would be like your grandmother telling you you look very smart in your new trousers and then pinching your arse.

It's praise, but it's not the praise you were looking for. Emmys Schmemmys.

Rats, the Buffy-quotes site is slashdotted (NM)

[Anonymous Coward]

(no-msg)

Aww

[CaptainSuperBoy]

It's too bad they cut the overture.. I love that scene in the house.

jonerik, not CmdrTaco, wrote it

[ToastyKen]

The word was in a quote of what jonerik said. CmdrTaco didn't write it.

My goodness!

[fm6]

How can I continue to blather in the face of such an irrefutable argument? It is so carefully reasoned, so detailed! Thank you for sharing an opinion that you truely put some real, hard thought into! I truely regret ever having disagreed with you!

Re:How do you

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you've logged in enough to get your karma below whatever the level is that you auto post at -1 most mods don't see your post, so they don't mod it down. ACs on the other hand post at 0 by defaut and get noticed by mods, incresing their chances of an IP ban. Its kinda ironic that a logged in troll can avoid the IP ban by creating an account, both of which were started to reduce the amount of noise.

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[hyacinthus]

"You really have to watch several consecutive episodes of Buffy to 'get' it. The show is meant to be viewed as a whole, not as individual episodes. My bet is that most people who immediately discount it have seen fewer than three episodes, and probably didn't come to the show with an open mind."

Ah, the "Babylon 5" excuse. It's not just a string of episode like that Star Trek crap, it's a _whole_. It's a _story arc_. Watch a whole seaons or couple of seasons of the show and you'll begin to appreciate J. Michael's Straczynski's grand plan.

Whatever. For all of JMS's design, "Babylon 5" still was badly written (especially when it came to comedy), horribly acted (with the exception of some of the supporting roles), and built up to one of the worst dramatic climaxes I've ever seen in a movie or TV show.

All of which says nothing about "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", of course, but I was just trying to explain that I'm no longer impressed by the "you can't see just one episode" argument. Either the writing is good--good on the small scale, good on the level of individual conversations and characterizations--or it's not. Either the acting is good, or it's not. No amount of long range planning will make a poorly written and poorly acted TV show good.

hyacinthus.

dig the premise of the show or not......

[Anonymous Coward]

We have Buffy lovers, in which I include myself, and Buffy bashers, so is the show worthy of award status? In general no, but certain episodes definitely stood out in scripting and dramatic presentation. Although I am a Buffy nut, I wouldn't say the majority of the show is something worthy of dramatic awards, the episode where Buffy's mother died was the exception to the rule IMHO. Watching the show I found it captured the experience of losing someone close to you to a tee, and its not something I would have noticed normally, however the episode was on shortly after the death of a longtime close friend. Any episode of a show that can capture real life that closely is worthy of praise. An hour of complete pathos, a true representation of the emotionally destructive power of death is worthy of surpreme cred, whether its a show based on a reality premise or not. However on slashdot we have too many uber d00ds more concerned about pushing their own opinions about what should be on the site, instead of taking each article as it comes. If you don't care, don't read the fscking article. Heaven forbid we keep an open mind here, or come to the realization that shows based on fictional realities might appeal to some nerds.

The slashdot "uber d00d" motto - "It's only news for nerds if I think so...."

never had a chance.

[neurojab]

Buffy will never win an emmy. There are several reasons for this.
1) Emmy judges only recently recognized the existence of FOX and HBO. UPN doesn't have deep enough pockets.

2) One look at previous winners will tell you that emmys only go to very conventional shows that are suitable for anyone whose palate has been seasoned toward endless repetition, mundane humor, and predictable plots. Being daring or innovative is rarely rewarded.

3) It's a niche genre. Buffy is definately a niche show and quite comfortable there. Emmy judges see their vote as recommending the show to the american family. Is that show going to be scifi/horror ?

4) The name of the show is too "kiddy" for stuffy, balding, boring judges to take seriously.

5) Who the hell cares if it wins an emmy? That would put it on the same "pedestal" as home improvement, felicity, and The PJs.

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[Kupek]

The reason people say to watch a few episodes is so that you know who the characters are and care about what happens to them.

A lot of the good writing is dependent on knowing the characters personality, or some of their background information. If you're watching one episode, and something bad happens to a particular character, or a relationship gets strained, you're not going to care. I think this goes for all shows with any dramatic element; you need to see a few episodes so you're familiar with the characters and the premise. It has nothing to do with lone range planning, it has to do with familiarity.

SVCD

[Chasing Amy]

Why would anyone do such a silly thing, when they could have gotten almost exactly the same quality by downloading an SVCD satellite rip from news://alt.binaries.multimedia.buffy-v-slayer.repo st? Yep, because few but us geeks know about the utility of USENET. :-)

Re:SVCD

[rakslice]

Probably because most people don't have access to a reliable news server that carries a lot of binaries groups.

My current ISP, Shaw Cablesystems, has a high group count, but expires posts really fast. And it takes a lot of effort to supplement my feed from other servers.

(Hey... anyone know of any usenet binary software that can do simultaneous downloading from multiple servers and lets one specify different socks proxies for each one? That would be really helpful.)

I don't know why that was modded as a troll....

I mean, if some comprehensive user-moderation features could be tacked on to usenet nicely, I don't think we'd be here right now. =)

Re:SVCD

[Chasing Amy]

> And it takes a lot of effort to supplement my feed from other servers.

Easynews. Check it out. Standard NNTP access, or a searchable Web interface. I use NNTP for most things, but if I just want to browse a particular group's binaries quickly, I often use the Web interface--which is perfect for quickly grabbing an episode of Buffy. :-) In fact, the complete version of OMWF is still in the Buffy repost group in full on Easynews, since Web retention of binaries is ~38 days currently.

Re:SVCD

[rakslice]

Automatic binary stiching through the web interface? /me drools. I'd actually consider shelling out some cash for that.

Actually, this thread prompted me to grab a newer copy of newsgrabber (fairly good binary sticher for evil MS OSes and very wine-friendly iirc) and check out shaw's feed againd. I was pleasantly surprised by the improved quality. (Not to mention that I'm new to yEnc and parity files; efficiency has improved, and the need for reposts has been cut down). And, since it's my ISP's fairly local news server, I get a cool 2.5mbits/sec down; I'm not sure if a 3rd party feed could compete.

I have to disagree utterly.

[Chasing Amy]

In fact, this season is *why* I started watching Buffy regularly, and catching up with previous seasons. The show never really appealed to me before because it was very hit-and-miss, with a few good episodes surrounded by eons of mindless soulless drivel. When it was good, it was great--like when Willow first comes out as a lesbian, or when the gang has to deal with Angel's return after he'd killed and tortured people; all the great episodes had an emotional component. However, most were mindless fighting episodes with thin plots and mediocre writing, though good choreography in general. But you can get that sort of mindless fighting in any number of series--*VIP*, *Relic Hunter*, etc.

What made the 6th season attractive was that most of the episodes had emotional depth. It dealt with young adults finally growing up and out into the real world, with real-world problems--money, social workers, addictions, emptiness. It was amazing. When I started watching, I went back and discovered that much of the 5th season was the same--episodes had depth, not just the killing of stuff. But before that--phew, mostly stinkers. And unlike the guy below who bemoans the "predictability" of these emotional crises, I have to say that while themes were familiar, and sometimes bordering on trite--the addiction to magic as an analogue to drug addiction--every such theme was presented with unique twists or perspectives, such that it impressed me with the writers' inventiveness in bringing the viewer into the series through bits of real-life problems presented in inscrutable contexts.

Only those interested in emotional depth and truly superb writing will appreciate the 6th season for the tour-de-force that it was. Or are we to believe the same creative minds which brought us "Once More with Feeling" were completely non-creative for the rest of the season? A certain type of science fiction fan--the puerile type only interested in otherworldly action, not plot or feeling--would be greatly disappointed, and never satisfuied with this season, picking apart the plots with the sort of banal and useless complaining of a certain comic-store-owning *Simpsons* character. But to the rest of us, who can appreciate artful and engaging storytelling, and who can appreciate the effort to show characters dealing with the same early-20s crises many people go through once college is over and the real world hits, the 6th season was a masterpiece. It was also a critical success and a popular success, as the ratings show--how much better in the Nielson ratings could you expect a transplanted show, from one network and slot to another totally different network, to do? It was clearly a success, the bitching of comic-book-guys around the globe notwithstanding.

I have to thank the writers and producers again for letting these characters mature and grow up, and for showing us that painful process in each episode of the 6th season.

Re:I have to disagree utterly.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that we even have to pick apart this season though. The last two seasons have been a lot less spectacular than the first few. Watch season 1-3 again where everything is always changing and noone ever gets a break. Compare that to the last season where the biggest adjustment that needs to be made is finding a job (do any of them still go to college?) or handling the wedding (both preparation and disaster after). They just don't stack up evenly.

So is it any suprise that it didn't get an Emmy? For what? Emmy's aren't supposed to be given out to a show on the basis of what it did in the past. It's on the present. And regardless of the outcry from fans, this season just didn't reach those expectations.

Here's hoping for a better next season.

Re:BuffyBot !! um, no, the story's not that clean

[Catbeller]

Actually the BuffyBot was commissioned by Spike the vamp, for the purpose of being his animatronic sex toy.

After the real Buffy found out, she confiscated it. Vampires don't have property rights, it seems.

After she died, the Scoobies (actually CS student Willow did the programming, Xander the hardware) brought the BuffyBot back for the purpose of posing as the real Slayer.

next season IS the last.... hope it's good

[johnpaul191]

well since the next season is the last one, they will probably wrap it up with some crazy stuff. Gellar's contract is up and she said she's done, Joss has said he doesnt have the time to devote tot he show that he wants to, and thinks it deserves. supposedly she said she was against the idea of movies in the future. there are a bunch of interviews where Joss hints at a few things to come this season. web searches will provie them, i forget where they are since the links or stories were sent to me bye a rabid fan......... i think they also said Angel is going to stay at least a year after Buffy expires (i think a few of the actors/actresses signed up for a few years or something... but i might be wrong).

p.s. i don't think Spike is going to turn out to be the spooky evil vamp this coming season..... the way last season ended implies something silly.

Re:next season IS the last.... hope it's good

[Babbster]

It's likely that Angel will complete at least five seasons since that's supposedly the magic syndication number where the big bucks kick in (just completed season three, so probably two more years of Angel).

THIS JUST IN....

[geekoid]

..."Love at first Bite"didn't win an oscar!
GReatest Vampire movie, ever.

"I don't drink wine, and I don't smoke 'shit'"
"Its a black chicken!"
"Creatures of the night, shut up!"

slashthroat.
News for Vampires. Stuff that sucks.

The show humilates nerds, glorifies selling out, and all there good episods are ripoffs.

to each there own I suppose.

Re:THIS JUST IN....

[Ioldanach]

The show humilates nerds, glorifies selling out, and all there good episods are ripoffs.

As far as good episodes being ripoffs, I'd say quite a few of them probably are, but on the other hand, they're frequently *intended* to be ripoffs. The fun part is if the characters recognise the ripoff. (Dracula, for example)

Humiliates nerds? I'd hardly say so. First, there's Willow who was a computer nerd since the beginning, and that only tapered off as she got into the whole wicca thing lately. Second, the guy who built his girlfriend, later the buffy bot, and tried to take over sunnydale. He was definitely a nerd, and hardly humiliated. He went out with quite the bang. Then there's Jonathan, the short nerd, who is a wimp, but obviously very bright. Not sure exactly how he's humiliated, even if he isn't a hero. Then there's the third one of the little nerd-trio, the taller one, who really is just a wannabe, probably not intelligent enough to actually be a nerd. There are a few episodes with nerds, one of them involving a demon who got into a computer, and those nerds certainly weren't humiliated in any way. I can't think of any more specific examples to cite, perhaps you have some counterexamples?

On the topic of "selling out", I'm really not sure what you mean... who ever sold out to the side of evil and didn't get their just desserts? Jonathan didn't sell out, he was just having some fun with friends and when it turned into something serious he got real nervous and tried to get out, but didn't have quite enough guts. He even redeemed himself in the last few episodes.

Come on...

[Anonymous Coward]

Buffy The Vampire Slayer? Come on! I've seen 5 or so episodes, and it just doesn't cut it for me (especially the band-camp girl...horrible...). Just watch Charmed, you get the same demon stuff, and the girls look 100 times better!

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[Chris Johnson]

You've got to give props to a show that pisses off fast-food sponsors by running a story arc with "DoubleMeat Palace", a fast food chain with beef patties and a Secret Ingredient... which of course the expectation is, "AAAAAA the doublemeat patty is people! It's made from people!" ...but in fact, when the secret is exposed, the meat patty is actually made of WOOD pulp (cellulose and vegetable proteins) and the secret ingredient? Rendered beef fat, for flavor.

"So the secret ingredient in DoubleMeat 'beef' is... beef?"

Oooooo, the sponsors were maaaad at Joss for that story arc :D I'm given to understand he got in trouble for it and had to back off from the fast food satire. But most of it had already aired, and it's lovely, ruthless, vicious mockery :)

Hmmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love to give Buffy a good old fashioned 'staking'...

Like, who cares?

[Mika_Lindman]

If I was in charge, all "who gives a fuck?" replies would get 5 karma and be marked as insightful.

This is oh-so-confusing

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: this is not meant as a troll, just general observation and some questions. And no, I don't hate America either.

I've had a hard time understanding this whole Buffy thing. I live in Northern Europe, and we, too, have Buffy on TV, yet I simply cannot imagine anyone over 14 years of age taking a liking to the series. It is thought of as just another one in a long series of silly, childish and disposable kid's TV series that will be forgotten by next year.

Generally speaking, TV doesn't seem to play as big a part in people's lives here as it does in America. I'm 22, and most of my friends at university rarely, if ever, watch TV. Even the ones that do only seem to do it so they can make fun among themselves of all the crap they've seen.

So when seemingly thousands upon thousands of educated adult males actually gather at Slashdot to discuss Buffy, it sure seems a long way from home. I guess my question is this: are you guys serious? Do you actually see depth of some sort in Buffy? Is it common for people in America to devote this much time to discuss a series they watch on TV?

to all those "who have seen 2 or 3 episodes..."

[Anonymous Coward]

First Season: silly. Nice Vampire huting, usual stuff, SMG. Nothing that interesting... but the series developed, the characters developed, and Season 5 and 6 where really great. Of course some Episodes are just "normal TV stuff", but i.e. Season 5's Episode of Buffys Mothers death was great. It was really great to watch it, with well done sound and visual "effects" to support the absolutly gloomy feeling of the whole thing.

Season 6 was getting complicated in the last episodes, I think a "n00b" just watching 6x19 would get nothing of the story or understand what happens (my roommate tried, but failed ;) - they explained nothing, it just happend because it had to - by storyline, or by character profile. Everything just fits, and some things seem to be planed and plotted out since the very first episodes of season one. I'm looking forward to the seventh season - what might happen to SMG? Don't think the producers could afford her for another two seasons....

Re:May have this first post?

[Anonymous Coward]

this show is just bad...

horrible!

[hicks80]

That show is terrible! I understand that people can get hooked on cheezy shows, so I never have a problem with people watching something for entertainment. But the acting and writing is plain horrible!

Willow in a Got Root shirt

[sabri]

Check this out: Willow (ok ok a lookalike) in a got root? shirt :-)

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[gughunter]

I always thought that Joss Whedon (creator) named the series "Buffy" to filter out stupid judgemental people.

Hmm... I thought the name came from a movie.

Whitty? Intelligent?

[Anonymous Coward]

Buffy is hands down one of the worst shows I have ever suffered watching.

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... I thought the name came from a movie

Which Joss also wrote...

It's simply bad

[Anonymous Coward]

The acting, the story and the idea of Buffy is simply bad. This show should not have made it past the pilot. And award committes recognize that.

Inexplicable?

[Syberghost]

I'm a Buffy fan since season 1, and when it's not in reruns I record it every week to make sure I don't miss it.

But give me a damn break; OMWF was a gimmick episode. It was "great" only because it was different. The music was crap, none of those songs would be considered good outside the context of the epsiode. Nobody on the show could sign worth a flip.

This was not Emmy-winning TV, this was a cute, fun episode of an entertaining show, and get some perspective, Buffy fans. If you want an award-quality musical, go rent West Side Story. Twenty years from now, people won't be renting OMWF.

mmm Buffy

[Anonymous Coward]

SMG is hot, the show rocks...

Law & Order Isn't About Characters

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about interesting crime usually involving murder.

But there has been bits of character development. The show has been on air for something like 10 years, and in an earlier series of the show there were events concerning Briscoe being an alcoholic, whereas now he has stopped drinking. Character dev. is a sideline in Law and Order, I think meant to show that they have to do their job while on the job.

This WAS news, not opinion, McKee

[ZeDanimal]

The message was NOT that, by the power of the voters, this episode did not get enough votes to warrant a nomination. Saying that was inexplicable would be opinion.

The message is that the episode was COMPLETELY LEFT OFF the list of shows that could even be nominated for the Emmy - where, IIRC, EVERY drama has a right to have its chosen episodes included on the ballot for consideration. Due to a screw-up by the people who put the official ballot together, "Once More With Feeling" was not even included. This is news.

Poor Buffy. Foiled again.
Danny

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding the novel "War and Peace": I thought the author didn't take enough time to flesh out the characters; the characters were lame, and the author just skipped over all of them, and there weren't enough characters. The descriptions of war were just crappy, compared to what I saw in that movie Schindler's List.

Dur... sounds like the guy doesn't know what he's talking about, does it? We can be pretty sure he hasn't read it, can't we? We can chuck his useless opinion out the window, no?

Prototypical "cult"? defensiveness. Sorry. Good wine tastes good, bad wine tastes bad. Your feelings don't come into play.

Not completely original

[Frank Sullivan]

The idea of a musical sci-fi/fantasy tv show isn't that new... check out "The Bitter Suite" episode of Xena (which was also really good).

Personally, i thought there were better individual episodes of Buffy this year than "Once More, with Feeling". The writing was okay, but it was hampered by the fact that only about half the cast could really sing, and that half doesn't include SMG. How come Tara and Giles got so much airtime in an episode not about them, and Willow was virtually offscreen? Balance of talent.

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah-ha. So now you have invented an excuse for not watching more than one or two episodes before you pass judgement: "it's the B5 excuse". Hah! You're just intellectually lazy and won't admit it. So, you don't like B5 or Buffy. That pretty well clinches it: you have absolutely no taste at all. You probably don't like Farscape, either.

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[Anonymous Coward]

...which movie Joss also wrote; with the same title, also designed to filter out stupid judgemental people.

there is only one thing interesting about Buffy

[Edmund Blackadder]

Buffy is a pretty mediocre show. And no the main actress is not that hot either. The interesting thing about Buffy is how it consistently attracts a gay male audience.

Why do gay guys like Buffy so much? Some one should really look into it. The phenomenon is so persistent that even guys that are in the closet or have not yet realized they are gay love the show. In fact if you suspect you may be gay, than ask your self "do i watch buffy regularly?" and if you answer yes watch some ricky martin videos and carefully note how they make you feel.

And a rather predictable by product of the huge gay male audience is that every one cares a lot about whether it gets a freacking emmy or not. I am sorry if suggesting that gay men tend to like those tv ceremonies is an unwarranted stereotype. But i think it is true.

There are many TV shows that i liked, including my all time favourite american show, "news radio", but i never noticed whether it got an emmy or not.

sorry that wasnt funny at all (nt)

[Edmund Blackadder]

nt

Okay - let's be serious

[ZeDanimal]

>> My dog could become a TV critic, it doesn't take insight.

That's some special dog you got there - and I agree that if the pooch can write 18 column inches on deadline, you'd be wasting his talents having him pontificate on the lack of wit in "Inside Schwarz."

>> It's hardly an objective field of journalism, or even one that even attempts to utilize reason to come to conclusions.

That's why they call it criticism. Of course it isn't objective - any opinion of art is not "objective" - it isn't supposed to be, and never was. Of course, nor is actual "journalism" actually ever "objective," either, but that digression will have to keep.

Art criticism, film criticism, book/literary criticism - and government/political/cultural criticism that occurs in column writing on your op-ed pages - are all these worthless because they aren't "objective?" If you think so, that's fine - but that's also your _opinion._

As for not using reason to come to conclusions, I don't understand how this can be said, as I simply disagree with your assessment that critics don't use "reason" in their reviews. The very sanity-checking that you do to say that the writing is bad or that the plots are stale is a (lesser) imitation of the rational critiquing that critics in practically every piece on television I've ever read.

>> So if you're looking for a career as a TV critic, taunting the inadequacies of a show that's not even remotely close to being the most popular will do little to tarnish your career goals.

At a minimum, I think TV critics at least warrant is an acknowledgement that they watch FAR MORE televison OF A WIDER RANGE than the average person. They have to - it's their job. So they are well aware of nearly everything new coming on the tube each fall season. They keep up to date on a far greater variety of shows than does the average viewer, because they can and because they need to - they budget it into their jobs.

Based on the previous post, you are acting as a critic. But I'm much less inclined to give weight to your words as I am somewhat confident you haven't put in nearly the amount of time or critical thought into your television viewing as have the professional critics you so disdain.

Nor do you have to give credit to my opinions, but here they are anyways: I have watched a lot of TV in my day, and "Buffy" is one of my favorite shows of all time, neck and neck with "The Simpsons." I love the writing, the development it provides the characters over time, and the acting performances that make those characters come to life. So I would disagree with most every point you raised about the weaknesses of the show and could try to argue point by point, but I won't - because you're entitled to your opinion...and because I'm glad you watch the show - its long mythology and the saga structure of the show doesn't lend itself to new viewers, and like any show, it benefits in many ways from having more viewers.

I'd be willing to wager a disproportionate amount of those viewers are critics. Because, make no mistake, among those "professional" television watchers that you dismiss, "Buffy" IS a critical darling. Rolling Stone called it the best show on TV in 2000. Various critics at Salon write frequently about the show, and have raved about it since its inception.

And then there's EW. My final question would be this: Why does Entertainment Weekly, the leading reporter for pop culture, feature the show seemingly every year on its cover and take up valuable column inches to write about it whenever something transpires that is remotely newsworthy - when by your own admission and one look at the ratings, it's not because such a huge number of people watch it compared to what else is on TV - if not because the critics and devotees amidst the staff there don't think it's an awesome show?

Sarah Michelle is cute and sells some magazines, but she ain't THAT cute,
Danny

Good point

[wackybrit]

You make a good point, but I disagree with your opinion of it.

Unfortunately, many people don't have this sort of imagination, and when confronted with this it all just seems silly, and they can't get into the story because their attempt at keeping the world within a preconceived worldview fails and suspension of disbelief cannot occur.

Why, 'unforunately'?

I am interested in things that are realistic. This does not mean they have to be real, per se, but that in the context of a certain environment, they are realistic.

For example, Star Trek TNG could be said to be reasonably realistic. Sure, we don't have transporters and warp drive yet, but it all makes a sort of scientific sense. We understand the concepts. Farscape, however, stretches the bounds of realism a little with a 'living ship'. This is a concept we cannot really grasp today, and it seems a bit like 'fantasy'.

'Fantasy' has no appeal for me, but I don't see that as being an 'unfortunately'. 'Fantasy' is departure from realism to satisfy the participants/viewers of a particular medium. Fantasy is designed solely for entertainment purposes, and is not very constructive.

Star Trek and '2001' are not true, and therefore 'a fantasy', but they are not fantasy, per se. They are realistic in their own contexts, and can give us some deep insights into matters that actually affect us. I mean, the whole idea of warp drive and transportation brought up in the Star Trek universe has inspired and led scientists to come to similar conclusions! Since when did Dungeons and Dragons or Star Wars do that?

Re:Good point

[Ioldanach]

'Fantasy' has no appeal for me, but I don't see that as being an 'unfortunately'. 'Fantasy' is departure from realism to satisfy the participants/viewers of a particular medium. Fantasy is designed solely for entertainment purposes, and is not very constructive.

"Unfortunately", here, has a subjective quality to it. What I find unfortunate I can entirely understand someone else not finding unfortunate. The grounding in reality that you speak of seems to me to result in a person who cannot appreciate art simply for art's sake. Art for art's sake is, objectively speaking, rarely constructive. I find, however, that letting my mind escape into the realm of the fantastical gives me a different outlook on things, and if nothing else, the mere entertainment value relaxes me. Therefore, while not classically constructive, it does have a positive effect on me.

Also, I should add, you refer to Star Trek as fantasy but not fantasy, since scientists were led by their ideas and reached similar conclusions. Before the scientists started their work and truly became interested, was it fantasy, or was it still on the not-fantasy fringe? If scientists hadn't reached those conclusions yet, would you still find them interesting?

Good fantasy, regardless of what fantastical element is employed, are self consistent. The better ones are far more self consistent than Star Trek, and in their own way have a sort of realism. Defining that line between what's an acceptable stretch of what we understand to be real and what's too far will always be a grey area, disagreed upon by anyone who cares to discuss it.

Re:Good point

[Anonymous Coward]

You think Star Trek: The Next Generation is realistic and not fantasy?!?!? You think scientists are lead to conclusions based on Star Trek: The Next Generation?!?!

ha-haha
AhahahahahaHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Re:Good point

[wackybrit]

The grounding in reality that you speak of seems to me to result in a person who cannot appreciate art simply for art's sake.

While I might not be interested in fantastical stories, games, or entertainment, I'm a bit of an art and architecture freak. It is easy to argue that architecture is practical, even in the most obscure forms.. but, you have a point on art. I appreciate art (Picasso being one of my favorites) because I appreciate aesthetics. Aesthetics is something that neither games, stories, or TV shows can really deliver.

Also, I should add, you refer to Star Trek as fantasy but not fantasy, since scientists were led by their ideas and reached similar conclusions. Before the scientists started their work and truly became interested, was it fantasy, or was it still on the not-fantasy fringe? If scientists hadn't reached those conclusions yet, would you still find them interesting?

Well, it has to be said that early sci-fi (mid 60s and before) was really just good old-fashioned 'fantasy'. Sci-fi in the 50s made as much logical sense as fantasy games do today. With the progression of technology, and an improvement in the understanding of the general populace, sci-fi presents less of a fantasy, and more of a reality now. To answer your question directly, I don't think sci-fi would exist as it does now if it were not for the scientific discoveries made in recent years.

Of course, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they're usually full of shit ;-)

Re:Good point

[schon]

Star Trek TNG could be said to be reasonably realistic [...] Farscape, however, stretches the bounds of realism a little with a 'living ship'. This is a concept we cannot really grasp today, and it seems a bit like 'fantasy'.

So I'm guessing that you missed the ST:TNG episode "Tin Man"? You know - the one with the 'living ship'.

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[Geek In Training]

Ah, the "Babylon 5" excuse...
Whatever. For all of JMS's design, "Babylon 5" still was badly written (especially when it came to comedy), horribly acted (with the exception of some of the supporting roles), and built up to one of the worst dramatic climaxes I've ever seen in a movie or TV show.


Ahh, the old "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" routine: Millions of teenage Internet fanboys who supposedly hate movies, but can't seem to stop talking about them.

(Tongue firmly in cheek here. :)

Promo DVD? p2p?

[rakslice]

Firstly, there are copies of the promotional DVD of "Once More, With Feeling" floating around on eBay (although at fairly high prices).

Secondly, you can always fire up your favourite p2p software, if you're in to that sort of thing, and grab a copy of the full first run of the episode. I'm currently using Kazaa (nicely sandboxed -- ain't VMWare great?); fasttrack seems to have a lot of Buffy fans.

Oh, but I'll have to go along with the inevitable whining and wonder whether this story is really /.-worthy. Not that I don't like BtVS; quite the opposite. However, this isn't really "News for Nerds", and my slayage.com bookmark serves me perfectly well for Buffy news.

PS

[rakslice]

One more thing...

Definitely expect UPN to rerun the full episode at some point if it gets nominated.

But nothing beats Giles' "Exposition Song"

[dexter riley]

"It's strange, it's not like anything
we've faced before...
It seems familiar somehow...
Of course!

The spell we cast with Buffy
must have released some primal evil
that's come back seeking,
I'm not sure what...

Willow, look through the chronicles
for some reference to a warrior beast.
I've got to warn Buffy!
There's every chance she might be next!

And Xander,
help Willow!
And try not to bleed on my couch,
I've just had it steam-cleaned.

No, wait..."
(microphone feedbacks)

Hmm, coincidence?

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Sarah M. Gellar start on a soap opera, as the daughter of the last "never wins" person, Susan Lucci? Coincidence, or conspiracy?

Well...

[Wraithlyn]

Look, there are some HUGELY bad episodes, and a certain amount of cheese. And the guy who plays Xander is a horrible actor, he always sounds like he's reciting lines, instead of talking naturally. I make no apologies for him.

But when the show is good, is is fucking GOLD.

"the show has little depth, the characters are one-dimensional, the situations often too... silly to be believable. the plots are predictable and simplistic, and thoroughly unstimulating"

Yeah, they give all the shallow, one dimensional, silly, predictable, simplistic, unstimulating shows seven seasons and multiple spin-off series. Just maybe there's some substance here, ya?

I think the biggest problem with Buffy is the name itself. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? What a stupid, trite name. Must be a stupid, trite show. Buffy is a wonderful book with a horrible cover, and it often gets judged by it.

The thing is, the stupid title is part of one of the main themes of the series, illusion and false pretense; counterpoint. Joss Whedon once stated the original concept for BtVS was a beautiful, helpless looking blonde girl walking down an alley late at night. She is set upon by vampires, and instead of screaming, running, and succumbing, she not only stays her ground, but all-out kicks their asses.

Playing against the audience's expectations like this is EVERYWHERE in the series. Example: In season 5, Buffy's mother, a regular character in all 5 seasons, falls ill. Everyone worries, she goes to the hospital, finds out she has a brain tumor. Everyone worries some more. She gets surgery. Everyone REALLY worries. She comes out, the tumor is gone! She's going to be just fine! Everyone is all smiles. Hurray! (These events are scattered out over half a season)

Textbook predictable, standard dramatic crisis and resolution. The audience nods and smiles, and says "Yes, I knew she'd get better." Jokes about bed-head and hospital night gowns. Collective, self-assured sigh of relief.

Then they kill her.

WHAM! Out of left field. Buffy comes home and her mother is simply lying dead on the couch, eyes and mouth open, like she was about to cry out but didn't get a chance. Then they deal with it. Sarah Michelle Gellar's acting in this episode is tremendous. I don't think I've ever seen a show deal with death with such maturity and sensitivity.

Now season 1 for the most part sucked, with a couple gem episodes (the two-part premiere and the finale are pretty decent)

Now seasons 2, 3, and 4 are just about the best "arc" television I have ever seen. Characters grow, change and die. Silly? Open up your mind to the creative possibilities. Simplistic??? If you've ever heard a Buffy fan trying to fill in a newbie to the backstory, you'd know this isn't the case. Predictable? Bullshit. Buffy doesn't pull any punches. I never know what to expect, because Whedon has no qualms whatsoever about killing or twisting main characters.

If you want to see Buffy shine, I suggest you borrow Season 2 DVDs from someone, and watch the following episodes (especially the asteriked ones)

School Hard
Lie to Me
*Surprise
*Innocence
Passion
*Becoming, Part 1
*Becoming, Part 2

If you still hate Buffy after watching these episodes, well, I guess our tastes differ, and that's really all there is to be said.

Re:Have the Buffy bashers even watched any episode

[schon]

So, you don't like B5 or Buffy. That pretty well clinches it: you have absolutely no taste at all. You probably don't like Farscape, either.

Well, I like Buffy, but I _abhor_ Babylon5... I second everything that the original poster said, except that he didn't spend nearly enough time trashing the CGI.

As for Farscape, it's mediocre.. not great, but (usually) not bad.

aspect ratio

[foobar104]

My favorite part about OMWF was the attention to detail. Everybody who's seen it knows it was shot and aired in letterboxed widescreen. But not plain old HDTV-style widescreen. It was broadcast in the Cinemascope aspect ratio, just like the grand old musicals of the 40's. They even used the "scope," or 2.35:1, version of the 20th Century Fox title at the end, after the end credits and the Mutant Enemy card.

But the big question is this: was this episode shot with Cinemascope lenses? Ordinarily when you shoot a movie in the "flat" aspect ratio (1.85:1) you matte off the top and bottom of the 35 mm frame. But when you shoot Cinemascope, you use a special anamorphic lens that squeezes the picture horizontally, so you use the whole 35 mm frame. When you project the film through another anamorphic lens, the image gets stretched out into the proper aspect ratio.

So if OMWF was shot with Cinemascope lenses, then there's a beautiful 35 mm master out there on a shelf someplace just begging for an anamorphic transfer to DVD.

Of course, unless they accelerate the process, by the time we get Season 6 on DVD, we'll probably have access to a consumer HD DVD format. We can only hope.

Repeat was cut to pieces

[Anonymous Coward]

Just saw the rerun. They really cut out a lot (including cutting up a number of the songs), making it seem too rushed. I saw the original wild feed (that's the network satellite feed for you cable crowd - i.e. the various cable and dbs* viewers) and there is no comparision. They did leave in Marti Noxon's traffic ticket number though with the three background streetsweepers (aka dollmen and opening vampires/victim) as ASH and company walked down the street.

* I know the 's' stands for satellite, but dbs functions much,much more like a cable system than C-band relative to quality and choices.

Re: ...even watched any episodes? BLESS YOU!!

[gughunter]

Fair enough. But isn't it rather judgmental to filter the audience in such a way?

Technology Relevance?

[tommck]

I know this has never stopped anyone here before, but I don't see how this is relevant to Slashdot.

Re:BuffyBot !! um, no, the story's not that clean

[Chibi]

hehe, this is why I'm buying season box sets on DVD. :)