This is not a sign that you need to start ditching Oracle. The reason more security loopholes are discovered in Oracle are because it is the most widely used JVM. Other VMs will still have a ton of issues, they just don't get attacked as much (yet).
A similar argument used to be debated years ago with Apple v Microsoft... Apple toted it's superior security over MS when in reality, nobody gave a crap about attacking Mac users which only made up 10% of the market. Once they gained popularity, they started getting hit more as well.
The real scary part is that MS at least takes its security flaws somewhat seriously. Oracle seems to have smugly ignored Mr. Gowdiak. He can now smugly turn around and give them a big "I told you so!"
No, it's run by representatives. These tend to be lobbyist-funded politicians that have managed to fool enough people into voting for them (usually by taking a popular stance one single issue or another). Once they are in office, the people have no say other than to threaten to not vote for them next term.
I personally believe some forms of copyright are necessary, but if the majority of the people believe we should have none, then we should have none.
I don't think the majority think we should have none... I think it's more that the majority of people think that the current model sucks.
it seems that the more the people feel copyrights are too restrictive, the more the laws become more draconian.
I don't think one causes the other directly... The more people feel copyrights are too restrictive, the more they start pirating. Instead of fixing the copyrights, draconian laws are passed as scare tactics (that obviously don't work).
if you disagree with a law, it's your job to let your representatives know it's bad and to try to get as many people that agree with you to tell them also.
Problem is they listen to the big industry money guy funding their campaign more than they listen to Joe the plumber.
If you aren't proactive with your government you really aren't doing everything you can to let your side of the argument be heard and considered. If you aren't happy with a law, don't fall into the rut of thinking there is nothing you can do, but begin letting everyone know why it needs to be changed. You should be able to decide, rather then just be stuck to follow, on what course you want your legislature to steer the nation.
This is a refreshing view of how the government should work. Perhaps I have become to cynnical, but this article just confirms that the government has been choosing the interest of the industries over an overwhelming popular opinion. Do we really need to become as radical as OWS or the Tea Party to get any kind of attention these days?
Yeah, we should be more like the British! They don't ever come up with any silly legal ideas like us Yanks do! Oh, except the following:
Under the reign of Elizabeth I, any person found guilty of "harboring a Catholic priest" would be tortured or even hanged. Any priest of the Catholic faith that was caught would be hanged, drawn, and quartered.
With the exception of carrots, most goods may not be sold on Sunday.
All English males over the age 14 are to carry out 2 or so hours of longbow practice a week supervised by the local clergy. Explanation: This law dates from the middle ages when there was no standing army, so in times of war each gentry was required to produce a quota (depending on its size) of knights, archers, infantry, etc. As the church was the only centralized instrument of bureauacracy (the lords were independent for the most part), they were used for such tasks.
London Hackney Carriages (taxis/cabs) must carry a bale of hay and a sack of oats. Explanation: The London Hackney Carriage Laws covers hackneys in other towns too and have remained unaltered for over 100 years. Firms have been known to manufacture very small bales of hay to carry in a taxi during disputes during local councils (who license the hackneys everywhere except London). Also the vehicle has to be tethered at a taxi rank, and the council have to supply a water trough at said ranks (that could be fun on a Saturday night!). The one about urinating against the back wheel is a Hackney Carriage Law too, and has also been done, on mass, during taxi/council disputes (allegedly).
The severest Penaltys will be suffered by any commoner who doth permit his animal to have carnal knowledge of a pet of the Royal House (enacted by George I).
It is illegal to be drunk on Licensed Premises (in a pub or bar).
It is illegal for two adult men to have sex in the same house as a third person. Explanation: Introduced to outlaw "molly houses" which began to appear in the big cities of England in the late 16th Century. In these bordellos, homosexuals engaged in sex, sado
masochism, transvestitism etc., and they were perceived as a threat to public morality, and so outlawed.
Any person found breaking a boiled egg at the sharp end will be sentenced to 24 hours in the village stocks (enacted by Edward VI).
It is illegal to stand within one hundred yards of the reigning monarch when not wearing socks (enacted by Edward VI).
Chelsea Pensioners may not be impersonated. Explanation: Chelsea Pensioners are entitled to enhanced state benefits and subsidized accommodation, so pretending to be one is simply fraud!
A bed may not be hung out of a window.
It is illegal for a lady to eat chocolates on a public conveyance.
Mince pies can not be eaten on Christmas day. Explanation: Ingredients of mince pies and plum puddings were pagan in origin, and their consumption part of ancient fertility rituals. The law dates from the Puritan era, the same time that dancing in church, maypoles, and holly and ivy decorations were outlawed. The laws were never officially repealed because upon the restoration of the monarchy, (in the form of Charles II) all laws formed under the protectorate were ignored as invalid.
Any boy under the age of 10 may not see a naked mannequin.
It is illegal to leave baggage unattended. Explanation: Many terrorists in the UK favor the practice of placing a bomb in a bag, then leaving the bag to explode later. Since this became a real threat, this law was passed to deter the crime and prosecute those who commit it.
Picking up abandoned baggage is an act of terrorism. See above.
It is illegal for a Member of Parliament to enter the House of Commons wearing a full suit of armour. Explanation: The law dates from the renegotiation of royal/political power on the accession of Charles II, designed to stop the MPs storming the house if it makes a decision they disapprove of. The Monarch is not allowed to enter
GlassFish competes directly with Oracle AS, and Weblogic (which Oracle acquired through BEA's acquisition a while back).
NetBeans competes directly with Oracle's JDeveloper.
I wonder if Oracle will keep these tools around. Personally, I think Oracle would be a fool not to. The NetBeans/GlassFish combo is by far the most productive way to develop server side Java Applications.
I agree, and I don't think Oracle will be pulling the plug on these. Some of these technologies might get integrated, and some will probably just continue on.
Look at how they've handled BEA. They have silently admitted that WebLogic is superior, but are still integrating it with some components of OAS to make an even better product. I think we can probably expect something similar with their IDEs.
As far as Glassfish/MySQL... I really don't think they will get rid of these either. WebLogic/OracleDB are powerful (and expensive) enterprise class closed-source products. However, there will still be a large community of open-source developers that Oracle will probably want to hang on to. This should allow Glassfish/MySQL to live on.
I think if they do for whatever reason try to get rid of these, there will be a huge migration of developers to other FOSS products, ultimately leading to more competition for Oracle.
What I'm really curious about is the O/S and server fronts. "Oracle Solaris" and "Oracle Fire" just don't sound right.
I saw MYST available as an iPod app. I didn't feel like dishing out $5.99 for it so I can't tell you if it's any good. However it's a sign that somebody somewhere is still getting picking up some loose change from it.
The "remastered" original Monkey Island game is also available on Steam and iPod. It has received high marks on both.
We ourselves find it hard not to suspect the involvement of some pan-dimensional police force, seeking to prevent humanity acquiring parallel-universe portal capability before we're ready to use it responsibly.
I have devoted a large portion of my life to playing countless hours of Doom and Halflife, reading Kurt Vonnegut novels, and watching numerous reruns of Quantum Leap and Sliders... I think I'm "ready to use it"!
I dunno, sounds like a sales pitch to me... you should have either written it in all caps Billy Mays style or said, "Made in Scotland... you know the Scottish make good stuff"
Reguardless, the article has already been/.ed so here are some other sources: Discover, Treehugger, and DNA
the average computer user isn't going to spend months learning how to use a CLI and then hours compiling packages so that they can get a workable graphic interface to check their mail with
I've always thought Ubuntu has very extensive driver support, as do many other distros. Who needs the CLI when there are multiple desktop environments to choose from? How many does Windows have? Oh, right, one...
I'm not the only one who thinks they are user-friendly... Already many big-name vendor laptops are coming out with some form of Linux pre-loaded. Take a look at the HP laptops that are now being offered with Mobile Internet O/S... from the page: " Mobile Internet is a user-friendly, all-inclusive interface built on Linux."
especially not when they already have a Windows machine that does its job perfectly well
haha, good one!
and is backed by a major corporation as opposed to Linux which is only supported by a few unemployed nerds living in their mother's basement somewhere.
Red Hat is a major corporation. It's publicly traded on the NYSE (ticker: RHAT) and doing rather well. You should consider investing. You should also know that Red Hat Enterprise Linux is a fully supported release which offers several high availability service contracts... which is why a lot of US Government systems are now running RHEL. Not to mention it's faster, less expensive, and more secure.
The last thing I want is a level 5 dwarf (haha) providing me my OS.
I don't blame you, I'd want at least a level 12 mage!
Perhaps the real problem is a lack of understanding. It seems that many lawmakers who try to deal with internet law have next to no technological knowledge about how the internet works, especially when it comes to e-commerce. (this looks like a good place for the obligatory 'tubes' link).
It seems like a lot of these laws are made with "good intentions" in that they are trying to prevent something they see as wrong: It sounds like the Maine law was trying to control the personal information dispersal of minors, and the law in New York was trying to keep it's residents from evading state taxes. They don't realize that the Maine law destroys a huge teenage market base in an already struggling economy, and that the New York law stifles e-commerce and causes a hastle for everyone outside of the state.
Unfortunately it looks like a lot of these laws are being proposed by individuals (I had originally written 'old farts' here but deleted it because it's unfair to old people... and to farts) have too narrow of a view to fully grasp the repercussions.
It's the same old complaint, I know (-1 Redundant) but I guess as long as there's slashdot, there will always be a place to bitch about it.
I didn't look at individual pricing, but the AMD Turion Neo X2 L625 is alread being offered in a laptop from HP - listed at a base of $569.99 but the processor is a $75 upgrade... or so you think, as soon as you select it you are told you need to upgrade the video card as well!
Either way, they wasted no time getting this on the market. The price seems competetive with the Intel Atom model.
I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Intel one-ups them though.
Why not just tap it into Twitter and utilize an existing system that's stable, easily accessible, and highly availabile? Not to mention you could keep your friends in the loop!
ME to XP happened solely because Microsoft had a solid platform (NT) ready to replace the 1993-era Win9x platform that ME was built on. Where is Microsoft's new platform now?
Exactly! Windows XP has already extended their EOL, but even that will go away soon... and then what supported O/S will be left? Only Vista?
I think this sudden announcement is just a mad scramble for an alternative O/S, but without a solid platform to build off of, it's not looking too promising...
So...you're saying waving your twee little support contract at the mighty Redmond is sufficient for them to drop whatever they're working on, abandon any strategic assumptions that factor into their release schedules, and do a code drop for your specific benefit?
Bollocks. You're either incredibly powerful or unfathomably mental, and deeply disturbing to us mere mortals in either case. Although the image of someone standing outside the main door at Microsoft, waving a piece of paper and bellowing for satisfaction is rather amusing in a Python-esque way.
GP post is spot-on: support guarantees you nothing. Nothing at all, beyond someone picking the phone up and listening to you (hopefully politely) for a few moments. It should at least include a reasonable attempt to diagnose your problem, but even that seems dodgy these days. It certainly won't swerve a major vendor an whit off of any bigger plans, which do typically encompass release schedules for a product that helps ensure lock-in like IE does.
Guess it's time for a sit-down with your legal representation, let us know how your suit proceeds. In the meantime, someone please mod this down to something reflecting reality...it certainly isn't insightful.
Are you speaking from experience or from your ass? You find it necessary to formulate your argument with insults and arrogant unfounded facts. It sounds to me like you just enjoy complaining about Microsoft cause you can make lots of friends on Slashdot and feel good about yourself. If I'm wrong, let us hear your experienced tales of woe and hardship!
The fact is, Microsoft's products are part of a competitive and flexible market. The support they offer is a product in and of itself. Believe it or not, customer satisfaction is taken quite seriously by commercial product vendors. If you think that a customer, no matter how large or small, who paid for a support contract gets brushed off on a phone call, you obviously are speaking on assumption alone. If this really happened nearly as often as you seem to imagine it does, the company would get a poor reputation and nobody would even buy their support.
There is a very strictly and legally defined process involved in support contracts, even the "twee little" ones. Trouble tickets must be resolved in a given amount of time. If not, they get escalated. It doesn't matter who the customer is, if the issue exists, and is considered severe, it will make it up the chain. Want evidence? Why do you think Microsoft releases 30 security patches a month? You think it's cause they suddenly feel like improving their product for no reason?
I think if you had ever really dealt with a support contract, you'd realize just how wrong your statements are.
Do you really need paid support for a web browser?
As a company, considering the web browser is the front-end for a large number of products being developed, the most used application by your employees, and the #1 gateway for potentially devastating viruses, I would say yes.
This is why you have in-house IT support staff. To fix your problems.
So you think having a couple of tech monkies getting paid $50k plus per year to sit around playing solitaire and waiting in case something goes wrong, even though they didn't develop the browser, don't have the source code for the browser, and likely only know as much as the F1 button will tell them, is a better choice?
If you were going to call up Microsoft every time you had a problem, your company would go belly-up pretty fast.
Microsoft, for all it's evil, offers guaranteed 24-hour support and a very fast turnaround. They haven't gotten to where they are by making all of it's customers go "belly-up".
Also, it's not like you can make MS release bug fixes, or security patches, even when you know there are problems
Really? Cause I thought that was exactly what putting in a trouble ticket through a paid support contract did... Let me know if that's really not true, cause I'd have pretty good grounds for a hefty law suit.
I'm curious. How much does paid technical support for Internet Explorer actually cost? And what do you get with that level of support?
That's a really tough question to answer... The support cost for most products varies from contract to contract, based on number of licensed products, level of support, duration of support, 24/7 vs 9-5, guarantee of response times, etc.
I don't think Microsoft has it's own support for just IE, but it all gets bundled under a Microsoft Product Support Services contract (which I believe most companies would purchase with their Windows license).
You're also not limited to just M$ support, there are third party "Geek Squad" support services available as well.
As far as a dollar value, I'm really only guessing, but I'd think for ~1000 enterprise licenses, you're talking about a $250,000-500,000 contract for EOL support.
The big downside is the difficulty of managing Firefox, especially in comparison to administering IE, according to the CIO. For example, he said that the IT department can patch IE via automated central updates. On the other hand, "we have to send an e-mail and have users manually download Firefox updates, which is not ideal," he said.
Doesn't Firefox do that by itself since 2.0 ?
I agree with the other replies to this, but I'll also point out that FF's auto updates are entirely dependant on an internet connection. Many systems, especially in the government, stay internal and are completely disconnected from the internet. Therefore, you need to have your IT staff be able to push these patches out when they become available.
What Mozilla needs to do is create their own operating system and incorporate Firefox into it in such a way that it cannot be uninstalled =P
Failing that, I think the ideas pointed out in the article are legitimate reasons that IE, albeit an inferior product in most reguards (or maybe all reguards), is dominating the corporate market. I think just the fact that it is a free product hurts them on some level. From my experience in the public sector, the brass always gets a little nervous when you start using the F-word of economics. They would rather dish out a couple grand to have a support and maintenance contract, if not only for the accountability aspect. I can't say that I've ever used FirefoxADM, but as a third party product, it looks like it suffers from the same lack of a guarantee for support and maintenance that the browser does.
I think the application compatibility is becoming less of a problem. A lot of GUI developers have already been throwing in browser checks for years because of Netscape, so I don't see Firefox as being that big of an issue. I haven't used any webpage IDEs in a while, but I'm willing to bet they already have that integrated as well. I can't recall in the past couple years that I've had a problem loading a page in Firefox.
Needless to say, I think Mozilla has their work cut out for them. Even if they do end up offering a superior enterprise class product, I think it's gonna be hard to get a lot of companies that have been partnered with M$ for years to move away from IE.
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This is not a sign that you need to start ditching Oracle. The reason more security loopholes are discovered in Oracle are because it is the most widely used JVM. Other VMs will still have a ton of issues, they just don't get attacked as much (yet).
A similar argument used to be debated years ago with Apple v Microsoft... Apple toted it's superior security over MS when in reality, nobody gave a crap about attacking Mac users which only made up 10% of the market. Once they gained popularity, they started getting hit more as well.
The real scary part is that MS at least takes its security flaws somewhat seriously. Oracle seems to have smugly ignored Mr. Gowdiak. He can now smugly turn around and give them a big "I told you so!"
No, it's run by representatives. These tend to be lobbyist-funded politicians that have managed to fool enough people into voting for them (usually by taking a popular stance one single issue or another). Once they are in office, the people have no say other than to threaten to not vote for them next term.
I don't think the majority think we should have none... I think it's more that the majority of people think that the current model sucks.
I don't think one causes the other directly... The more people feel copyrights are too restrictive, the more they start pirating. Instead of fixing the copyrights, draconian laws are passed as scare tactics (that obviously don't work).
Problem is they listen to the big industry money guy funding their campaign more than they listen to Joe the plumber.
This is a refreshing view of how the government should work. Perhaps I have become to cynnical, but this article just confirms that the government has been choosing the interest of the industries over an overwhelming popular opinion. Do we really need to become as radical as OWS or the Tea Party to get any kind of attention these days?
system would collect the Sun's energy and transmit it to Earth via an infrared laser, to provide electricity
To "provide electricity" or to "discuss the location of the hidden rebel base"?
Is anyone else scared?
GlassFish competes directly with Oracle AS, and Weblogic (which Oracle acquired through BEA's acquisition a while back).
NetBeans competes directly with Oracle's JDeveloper.
I wonder if Oracle will keep these tools around. Personally, I think Oracle would be a fool not to. The NetBeans/GlassFish combo is by far the most productive way to develop server side Java Applications.
I agree, and I don't think Oracle will be pulling the plug on these. Some of these technologies might get integrated, and some will probably just continue on.
Look at how they've handled BEA. They have silently admitted that WebLogic is superior, but are still integrating it with some components of OAS to make an even better product. I think we can probably expect something similar with their IDEs.
As far as Glassfish/MySQL... I really don't think they will get rid of these either. WebLogic/OracleDB are powerful (and expensive) enterprise class closed-source products. However, there will still be a large community of open-source developers that Oracle will probably want to hang on to. This should allow Glassfish/MySQL to live on.
I think if they do for whatever reason try to get rid of these, there will be a huge migration of developers to other FOSS products, ultimately leading to more competition for Oracle.
What I'm really curious about is the O/S and server fronts. "Oracle Solaris" and "Oracle Fire" just don't sound right.
I saw MYST available as an iPod app. I didn't feel like dishing out $5.99 for it so I can't tell you if it's any good. However it's a sign that somebody somewhere is still getting picking up some loose change from it.
The "remastered" original Monkey Island game is also available on Steam and iPod. It has received high marks on both.
Who knew that the man behind Spiderman, The Grudge, Evil Dead, and Drag Me to Hell is a fan of cheesy low budget special effects.
Is it an African or a European octopus?
We ourselves find it hard not to suspect the involvement of some pan-dimensional police force, seeking to prevent humanity acquiring parallel-universe portal capability before we're ready to use it responsibly.
I have devoted a large portion of my life to playing countless hours of Doom and Halflife, reading Kurt Vonnegut novels, and watching numerous reruns of Quantum Leap and Sliders... I think I'm "ready to use it"!
Oh, wait... "responsibly"... hmm...
I dunno, sounds like a sales pitch to me... you should have either written it in all caps Billy Mays style or said, "Made in Scotland... you know the Scottish make good stuff"
/.ed so here are some other sources: Discover, Treehugger, and DNA
Reguardless, the article has already been
Please let me know from what nationality a poster to Slashdot actually believes his is the only one represented on this website
United Federation of Planets, duh
Linux just isn't ready for the desktop yet.
Translation: I haven't tried it.
the average computer user isn't going to spend months learning how to use a CLI and then hours compiling packages so that they can get a workable graphic interface to check their mail with
I've always thought Ubuntu has very extensive driver support, as do many other distros. Who needs the CLI when there are multiple desktop environments to choose from? How many does Windows have? Oh, right, one...
I'm not the only one who thinks they are user-friendly... Already many big-name vendor laptops are coming out with some form of Linux pre-loaded. Take a look at the HP laptops that are now being offered with Mobile Internet O/S... from the page: " Mobile Internet is a user-friendly, all-inclusive interface built on Linux."
especially not when they already have a Windows machine that does its job perfectly well
haha, good one!
and is backed by a major corporation as opposed to Linux which is only supported by a few unemployed nerds living in their mother's basement somewhere.
Red Hat is a major corporation. It's publicly traded on the NYSE (ticker: RHAT) and doing rather well. You should consider investing. You should also know that Red Hat Enterprise Linux is a fully supported release which offers several high availability service contracts... which is why a lot of US Government systems are now running RHEL. Not to mention it's faster, less expensive, and more secure.
The last thing I want is a level 5 dwarf (haha) providing me my OS.
I don't blame you, I'd want at least a level 12 mage!
Captain Benjamin Willard was not a myth!
Perhaps the real problem is a lack of understanding. It seems that many lawmakers who try to deal with internet law have next to no technological knowledge about how the internet works, especially when it comes to e-commerce. (this looks like a good place for the obligatory 'tubes' link).
It seems like a lot of these laws are made with "good intentions" in that they are trying to prevent something they see as wrong: It sounds like the Maine law was trying to control the personal information dispersal of minors, and the law in New York was trying to keep it's residents from evading state taxes. They don't realize that the Maine law destroys a huge teenage market base in an already struggling economy, and that the New York law stifles e-commerce and causes a hastle for everyone outside of the state.
Unfortunately it looks like a lot of these laws are being proposed by individuals (I had originally written 'old farts' here but deleted it because it's unfair to old people... and to farts) have too narrow of a view to fully grasp the repercussions.
It's the same old complaint, I know (-1 Redundant) but I guess as long as there's slashdot, there will always be a place to bitch about it.
...will be known as "The Tonight Show"
I didn't look at individual pricing, but the AMD Turion Neo X2 L625 is alread being offered in a laptop from HP - listed at a base of $569.99 but the processor is a $75 upgrade... or so you think, as soon as you select it you are told you need to upgrade the video card as well!
Either way, they wasted no time getting this on the market. The price seems competetive with the Intel Atom model.
I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Intel one-ups them though.
Why not just tap it into Twitter and utilize an existing system that's stable, easily accessible, and highly availabile? Not to mention you could keep your friends in the loop!
I can haz blame?
I think this sudden announcement is just a mad scramble for an alternative O/S, but without a solid platform to build off of, it's not looking too promising...
Are you speaking from experience or from your ass? You find it necessary to formulate your argument with insults and arrogant unfounded facts. It sounds to me like you just enjoy complaining about Microsoft cause you can make lots of friends on Slashdot and feel good about yourself. If I'm wrong, let us hear your experienced tales of woe and hardship!
The fact is, Microsoft's products are part of a competitive and flexible market. The support they offer is a product in and of itself. Believe it or not, customer satisfaction is taken quite seriously by commercial product vendors. If you think that a customer, no matter how large or small, who paid for a support contract gets brushed off on a phone call, you obviously are speaking on assumption alone. If this really happened nearly as often as you seem to imagine it does, the company would get a poor reputation and nobody would even buy their support.
There is a very strictly and legally defined process involved in support contracts, even the "twee little" ones. Trouble tickets must be resolved in a given amount of time. If not, they get escalated. It doesn't matter who the customer is, if the issue exists, and is considered severe, it will make it up the chain. Want evidence? Why do you think Microsoft releases 30 security patches a month? You think it's cause they suddenly feel like improving their product for no reason?
I think if you had ever really dealt with a support contract, you'd realize just how wrong your statements are.
I don't think Microsoft has it's own support for just IE, but it all gets bundled under a Microsoft Product Support Services contract (which I believe most companies would purchase with their Windows license).
You're also not limited to just M$ support, there are third party "Geek Squad" support services available as well.
As far as a dollar value, I'm really only guessing, but I'd think for ~1000 enterprise licenses, you're talking about a $250,000-500,000 contract for EOL support.
What Mozilla needs to do is create their own operating system and incorporate Firefox into it in such a way that it cannot be uninstalled =P
Failing that, I think the ideas pointed out in the article are legitimate reasons that IE, albeit an inferior product in most reguards (or maybe all reguards), is dominating the corporate market. I think just the fact that it is a free product hurts them on some level. From my experience in the public sector, the brass always gets a little nervous when you start using the F-word of economics. They would rather dish out a couple grand to have a support and maintenance contract, if not only for the accountability aspect. I can't say that I've ever used FirefoxADM, but as a third party product, it looks like it suffers from the same lack of a guarantee for support and maintenance that the browser does.
I think the application compatibility is becoming less of a problem. A lot of GUI developers have already been throwing in browser checks for years because of Netscape, so I don't see Firefox as being that big of an issue. I haven't used any webpage IDEs in a while, but I'm willing to bet they already have that integrated as well. I can't recall in the past couple years that I've had a problem loading a page in Firefox.
Needless to say, I think Mozilla has their work cut out for them. Even if they do end up offering a superior enterprise class product, I think it's gonna be hard to get a lot of companies that have been partnered with M$ for years to move away from IE.
A list of 12 Slashdot Users Caught Whoring Karma in 2007
CowboyNeal
eldavojohn
prostoalex
rpiquepa
theodp
antdude
securitas
freebsddude
Eugenia Loli
Makarand
coondoggie
ExE122