It's not really adult behaviour is it, and certainly not the behavior of a country that likes to think they are a world leader.
Too right.
There are an increasing number of cultural messages, and messengers, in US media the subtext of which is "it is OK and even desirable to act like you are ten years old all of the time", the framing of Howard Stern as a folk hero being the canonical example.
I don't think anyone faults the fans of South Park, Howard Stern, etc. for finding them amusing. The problem is that immaturity is increasingly finding a place in public life. Apparently these soldiers think it's OK to act like ten year olds while acting in an official capacity, such that they don't see anything wrong with bragging about it to the media. It will be interesting to see whether their superiors think so too.
And, while this particular incident hardly qualifies as "torture", there does seem to be an immaturity continuum on the part of US actors and decision makers in the Iraq war that starts here, runs through Abu Ghraib, and all the way up to the White House, where apparently torture was not only planned and condoned, but micromanaged, with high level participants apparently doing so at least in part to gain personal satisfaction from the act. There's no credible evidence that any of it was effective, and plenty of evidence that it was counterproductive, but apparently, in times of crisis, the appropriate response is not to act like adults and address the problem effectively, but to act like ten year olds and pull the wings off of flies because we can.
And, while there has certainly been a fair bit of outrage over all of this (underreported) in the US, there are plenty of people who thinks that it is all right and good. It would be interesting to know the correlation between South Park/shock jock/reality show fandom and the condoning of torture among the American public.
But don't get too cocky in your own country. One of America's biggest exports is its media. It's like I tell my kids: what we are, you will be.;-)
Or, the ship's computer could bring them out of their comas when they reach their destination, assuming it hasn't unilaterally decided that they are a threat to the mission and terminated their life support.
I'm not considering the socio-economic question because I'm not really addressing it, nor do the studies cited, at least in any detail. I was responding to the OP's broader statement of being unconvinced that there were any racial disparities at all, and then basically discounting a lot of the evidence a priori because of his political biases. The idea was to show that there a fair amount of evidence for racial inequalities throughout the process.
I actually agree with you and he that economic and educational gaps account for a lot of disproportionalities in convictions. But this is only one element of the problem of racial bias in the judicial system - arrests and sentencing, for example, are areas where disproportionate treatment of minorities are harder to explain away in this way.
Uh, the data in the studies is real and empirical. I did 'produce' it. Do you actually have any facts at *your* disposal?
not from a Leftist "thinktank"
Uh, so? These organizations are not just sign-carrying pressure groups. Human Rights Watch is widely respected and aggressively non-partisan. They've drawn fire and praise from all over the political spectrum; see "What They Say" on their home page for starters. The Innocence Project arose from the discovery that DNA testing exonerated substantial numbers of the wrongfully incarcerated, and is focused on correcting the systemic defects in the judicial system that put them there, which is a pretty difficult mission to characterize as partisan. These are not 'Leftist' organizations in the sense that they advocate a political agenda. Again, do you have any facts at *your* disposal?
It does so happen that most of the people who donate to such organizations are liberals, but, frankly, it's difficult for any reasonably intelligent observer of the American political scene not to conclude that commitment to human rights is a predominately liberal issue there.
It's a friggin' self-referencing circle.
Uh, why? Where do the linked studies and organizations cite the blog? Where is the evidence that the Prof. is a partisan? Do you have any idea what you're talkking about? There's a lot of info and links on the site; I just put the link there so people could find info on the topic.
A systemic problem, if that is the case here, can only by solved in a constructive, bipartisan way.
I agree that miscarriage of justice is a bi-partisan issue (and where it's being addressed effectively, it's a bi-partisan effort, as both the Human Rights Watch and the Innocence Project can attest) but hey, you're the guy who made the debate political. I stand by my earlier statements on who cares about civil and human rights in this country, and who doesn't. Is Gitmo a Republican issue?
I may actually check out both "reports"
Gee, thanks.
I suspect my bias will be confirmed.
I'll bet.
Kool-Aid
I'm not the one drinking Kool-Aid here. The linked studies analyze empirical data that was not made up by the authors as a matter of opinion. The facts and analysis in the studies can be analyzed and checked, and the conclusions debated on that basis. To assert that any organization that you, personally, mischaracterize as 'liberal' is not capable of producing a credible study per se (and indeed, your mischaracterizations in the first place) is pretty strong evidence of the vast quantities of Kool-Aid you've already consumed.
So, having stated that you haven't seen any data, and having implied that you discount the opinions of so-called "Leftists" (i.e. the only people in America who actually care about the unfairly incarcerated, or, lately, about human rights in general), and are therefore motivated to expose the problem), you then proceed to float an unsupported opinion. Now that's some mighty funny stuff right there.
That being said, if you are open-minded enough to read studies containing *actual data* from so-called "thinktanks" that support the notion that racial and other demographic disparities exist in criminal justice, here are a couple:
We both ended up with really interesting, satisfying and reasonably lucrative technical careers, we think as a direct result of having received strong encouragement in a scientific and technical direction as kids, with emphasis placed on making and doing.
They have two XOs between the three of them, and I have a pile of Thinkpads of various types, with Knoppix and other distros, that they can use. They also can talk to the Mindstorms through my wife's OS X box.
I have to disagree with your view of The Art of Electronics. It is to electronics what The Joy of Cooking is to cooking: a comprehensive and extremely clear guide for beginners that is equally useful to masters. I've certainly found it to be practical and accessible for a variety of projects.
And I find it interesting that you're criticizing expressed skepticism of an "officer's" "experience" as stated on an anonymous Internet forum. Perhaps you should reconsider your handle?
If you don't want counterfeit parts, pay for the appropriate controls and enforce them. The government has been trying to build government-class security and reliability on COTS technology for far too long.
Slashdot Mirror
No, a firm regulatory hand is materially different from a command economy. Ask any Eastern European who sells into the EU.
It's comments like this that lend a strong argument as to why the stereotype of geeks missing the punchline exists.
It's not really adult behaviour is it, and certainly not the behavior of a country that likes to think they are a world leader.
;-)
Too right.
There are an increasing number of cultural messages, and messengers, in US media the subtext of which is "it is OK and even desirable to act like you are ten years old all of the time", the framing of Howard Stern as a folk hero being the canonical example.
I don't think anyone faults the fans of South Park, Howard Stern, etc. for finding them amusing. The problem is that immaturity is increasingly finding a place in public life. Apparently these soldiers think it's OK to act like ten year olds while acting in an official capacity, such that they don't see anything wrong with bragging about it to the media. It will be interesting to see whether their superiors think so too.
And, while this particular incident hardly qualifies as "torture", there does seem to be an immaturity continuum on the part of US actors and decision makers in the Iraq war that starts here, runs through Abu Ghraib, and all the way up to the White House, where apparently torture was not only planned and condoned, but micromanaged, with high level participants apparently doing so at least in part to gain personal satisfaction from the act. There's no credible evidence that any of it was effective, and plenty of evidence that it was counterproductive, but apparently, in times of crisis, the appropriate response is not to act like adults and address the problem effectively, but to act like ten year olds and pull the wings off of flies because we can.
And, while there has certainly been a fair bit of outrage over all of this (underreported) in the US, there are plenty of people who thinks that it is all right and good. It would be interesting to know the correlation between South Park/shock jock/reality show fandom and the condoning of torture among the American public.
But don't get too cocky in your own country. One of America's biggest exports is its media. It's like I tell my kids: what we are, you will be.
Default, the two sweetest words in the English language.
Or, the ship's computer could bring them out of their comas when they reach their destination, assuming it hasn't unilaterally decided that they are a threat to the mission and terminated their life support.
I, for one, would greatly like to see a bible written 400 BCE.
:-)
That would be a "Torah".
I'm not considering the socio-economic question because I'm not really addressing it, nor do the studies cited, at least in any detail. I was responding to the OP's broader statement of being unconvinced that there were any racial disparities at all, and then basically discounting a lot of the evidence a priori because of his political biases. The idea was to show that there a fair amount of evidence for racial inequalities throughout the process.
I actually agree with you and he that economic and educational gaps account for a lot of disproportionalities in convictions. But this is only one element of the problem of racial bias in the judicial system - arrests and sentencing, for example, are areas where disproportionate treatment of minorities are harder to explain away in this way.
Another fact-free response. You're going to have to do better than that, son.
produce some real data ... and I'll consider it
Uh, the data in the studies is real and empirical. I did 'produce' it. Do you actually have any facts at *your* disposal?
not from a Leftist "thinktank"
Uh, so? These organizations are not just sign-carrying pressure groups. Human Rights Watch is widely respected and aggressively non-partisan. They've drawn fire and praise from all over the political spectrum; see "What They Say" on their home page for starters. The Innocence Project arose from the discovery that DNA testing exonerated substantial numbers of the wrongfully incarcerated, and is focused on correcting the systemic defects in the judicial system that put them there, which is a pretty difficult mission to characterize as partisan. These are not 'Leftist' organizations in the sense that they advocate a political agenda. Again, do you have any facts at *your* disposal?
It does so happen that most of the people who donate to such organizations are liberals, but, frankly, it's difficult for any reasonably intelligent observer of the American political scene not to conclude that commitment to human rights is a predominately liberal issue there.
It's a friggin' self-referencing circle.
Uh, why? Where do the linked studies and organizations cite the blog? Where is the evidence that the Prof. is a partisan? Do you have any idea what you're talkking about? There's a lot of info and links on the site; I just put the link there so people could find info on the topic.
A systemic problem, if that is the case here, can only by solved in a constructive, bipartisan way.
I agree that miscarriage of justice is a bi-partisan issue (and where it's being addressed effectively, it's a bi-partisan effort, as both the Human Rights Watch and the Innocence Project can attest) but hey, you're the guy who made the debate political. I stand by my earlier statements on who cares about civil and human rights in this country, and who doesn't. Is Gitmo a Republican issue?
I may actually check out both "reports"
Gee, thanks.
I suspect my bias will be confirmed. I'll bet.
Kool-Aid
I'm not the one drinking Kool-Aid here. The linked studies analyze empirical data that was not made up by the authors as a matter of opinion. The facts and analysis in the studies can be analyzed and checked, and the conclusions debated on that basis. To assert that any organization that you, personally, mischaracterize as 'liberal' is not capable of producing a credible study per se (and indeed, your mischaracterizations in the first place) is pretty strong evidence of the vast quantities of Kool-Aid you've already consumed.
So, having stated that you haven't seen any data, and having implied that you discount the opinions of so-called "Leftists" (i.e. the only people in America who actually care about the unfairly incarcerated, or, lately, about human rights in general), and are therefore motivated to expose the problem), you then proceed to float an unsupported opinion. Now that's some mighty funny stuff right there.
That being said, if you are open-minded enough to read studies containing *actual data* from so-called "thinktanks" that support the notion that racial and other demographic disparities exist in criminal justice, here are a couple:
The Sentencing Project: Geography: The War on Drugs in America's Cities
Human Rights Watch: Targeting Blacks Drug Law Enforcement and Race in the United States
I found these on Prof. Douglas A. Berman's interesting Sentencing Law and Policy blog, which links to many other sources of the facts you seek.
until such time as the preponderance of judges and attorneys can be embarrassed by archival pictures/movies on the Internet.
The claim that blacks are being unfairly punished is a totally bogus one.
No, it isn't. See http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/05/04/civil.rights/index.html and http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2006/01/should_criminal.html for starters.
for all the informative and insightful comments!
I'm still digesting it all. RSN I will summarize the advice and links from this discussion on a journal.
Best regards,
We both ended up with really interesting, satisfying and reasonably lucrative technical careers, we think as a direct result of having received strong encouragement in a scientific and technical direction as kids, with emphasis placed on making and doing.
They have two XOs between the three of them, and I have a pile of Thinkpads of various types, with Knoppix and other distros, that they can use. They also can talk to the Mindstorms through my wife's OS X box.
Astrophysics professor, now retired.
did something like this in 2000. See p. 15 of this 3 MB zipped Powerpoint.
See also P-p-p-Powerbook! for a possible laugh.
I have to disagree with your view of The Art of Electronics. It is to electronics what The Joy of Cooking is to cooking: a comprehensive and extremely clear guide for beginners that is equally useful to masters. I've certainly found it to be practical and accessible for a variety of projects.
This is slashdot. You aren't new here. Get used to it.
Exactly. Goose, gander, etc.
However you explain it, they exist.
Oh, I agree. And I'm tending to side with mad-cat in this thread. That wasn't my point, though.
doesn't mean I'm gullible
Perhaps not, but you seem to think others should be, which WAS my point.
rant
Uh, no. Nice try, though.
And I find it interesting that you're criticizing expressed skepticism of an "officer's" "experience" as stated on an anonymous Internet forum. Perhaps you should reconsider your handle?
We have those already, except for the "protection" part. It's called AV.
Technically the word "you" occurs twice. ;-)
You get what you pay for.
If you don't want counterfeit parts, pay for the appropriate controls and enforce them. The government has been trying to build government-class security and reliability on COTS technology for far too long.
If that means domestic production, so be it.
Oh, I've had sex. Let me guess... you've never been married?
Don't answer that.