Slashdot Mirror

You are correct that M16s are generally more expensive, but that doesn't bear on the original poster's point. He merely said that the bulk of the weapons on the international market came through western arms dealers and governments. I believe he is correct. According to Amnesty International the US DOD itself is the among the largest buyers and suppliers of used Kalashnikovs on the international market, buying 350,000 such weapons in former Yugoslavia alone in 2004-2005.

"Kalashnikov purchase and supply dynamics have altered dramatically since the Cold War. Tens of thousands of AKs are now being bought, trafficked, and brokered by a new breed of middlemen. International networks of companies, government agencies, and individuals in Europe, the Middle East, North America and elsewhere are involved, augmenting the millions of assault rifles and other small arms currently in circulation. These Kalashnikov market facilitators are increasingly involved in complex supply chains to deliver AK-47 assault rifles and their variants across the globe using brokering networks, freight-forwarders, transport firms, off-shore bank accounts, and other inter-connected companies. Established arms supply networks in many countries are responsible for delivering vast numbers of these weapons to areas of conflict and repression. These are now increasingly joined by some Western governments and associated private contractors who trade in surplus arms from former Warsaw Pact countries. This challenges the assumption that the worldwide problem of Kalashnikov proliferation and abuse has been caused solely by the failure of Russia and its military allies, and China and its partners, to control and regulate it."

and that is going to help how?

According to some very fascinating reading over at wikipedia, "A government is a body that has the authority to make and the power to enforce laws...(6)". Under the "Social Contract Section", "If a majority is unhappy, it may change the social contract. If a minority is unhappy, it may persuade the majority to change the contract, or it may opt out of it by emigration or secession."

I'll come back to that. Meanwhile...

Interestingly, "Authoritarianism often arises from the governing bodies' presumption that they know what is right or wrong for the country and from intolerance of dissent. The government then enforces what it thinks is right, often with use of considerable force and sometimes in blatant violation of human rights. Dissenting voices are ignored, or, more strikingly, are considered to be plotting against the best interests of the country(5). "best interest" Sound familiar? Human rights, Guantánamo (1).

It's in our best interest to make sure this bill passes because we have to "thwart our determined and dangerous terrorist enemies". It's in our best interest "to require ISPs to preserve customer records because "government's lack of access to customer data the biggest obstacle to deterring child porn(2). "We respect civil liberties but... {emphasis mine}" This headline says it all... CCTV Cameras In UK Get Loudspeakers(3)" That's the news from DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED governments, (forget rogue governments) in the last 5 days using only slashdot as a jumping off point! How much more is out there that we didn't get to see on this site?

Let's try to wrap it up. Use Authoritarianism(4) to maintain Social Control(5) to change a Government(6) into a Police State(7). And you want to write a letter to a person who isn't going to read it about an issue which is near and dear to his/her heart (gaining more and more power, the very nature of government) seeking change? Good Yuck(r)

(1) http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-e ng
(2) http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/19/22 31253
(3) http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/17/16 56258
(4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
(5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control
(6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government
(7) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

p.s. dear government officials, I am NOT a radical and i did not mean to think about my freedoms, rights and responsabilities. That is your responsability and you are doing great job.

If they weren't being vindictive, how do you explain this?

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lbn-010906-action-eng

Note that I never defended Hezbollah's behaviour. In fact I'm quite sure I called it both unpalatable and abhorrent.

Afaik, Israel hasn't targeted civilians as primary targets.

Well, Amnesty International, for one, would disagree with you. So would Human Rights Watch. As do the UN.

Own Criminal Acts.

Hamdi v Rumsfeld calls for a need for 'Military Tribunals' so as to ensure that when they 'goof' it's under strictest cover, and no-one will ever know what happened.

Is it any accident the CIA is CIA (Covering Its Ass)?

Gonzales is looking to legitimize the fact that the .gov has already been caught with it's hands in the til...

The abuses of The Constitution are being watched by everyone, everywhere. What was once the beacon of hope and bastion of freedom for the whole world is being trashed by criminals and oligarchs who seek to douse its light once and for all. The abuses against the American public must be arrested at the earliest possible juncture.

The truly frightening thing is that you can't even trust your democratic process anymore. So who's the terrorist? Where does he live?

Even Republicans can't deny the fact that it's getting out of hand.

Just today: On Tuesday, President Bush said, "Freedom, by its nature, cannot be imposed -- it must be chosen. From Beirut to Baghdad , people are making the choice for freedom.

Some choice.

The people in Guantanamo aren't US citizens, they're enemy combatants. There's a huge difference. It's not like we can just release them back to the government they fought for, given that they didn't fight for any government. Until we finish the War on Terror, there's really no where to send them, so it's safer to temporarily keep them in Guantanamo.

Unless you'd rather we release them to attack the United States.

And I'll add that perhaps you can backup some of your allegations with a link, or some sort of actual argument, rather than just unfalsifiable statements.

You would evidently require a link, or an "actual argument" to prove that the sky is blue.

One poster already stated that infant mortality is defined differently from nation to nation, and that Cuba has an abnormally high abortion rate. The fact that Cuba has apparently arrested doctors in the past for talking about certain illnesses indicates that what I'm saying is probably accurate.

To expect truthful statistics from a totalitarian government is, at best, laughably naive.

I am arguing against Israel being a rational, reasonable country that respects civilian lives. You are are arguing that it is and is therefore better than Iran.

Satelite pictures of the recent Israeli destruction of residential Beiruit are here.

I don't want to get into personal attacks as you seem to. Like you said, you're tired so I won't argue anymore about MAD working. We both seem to agree that a policy of MAD was adopted during the Cold War. We obviously both agree the Cold War did not warm up. Let's leave each other to our interpretations.

I don't think actual facts or links will change your mind on this manner because you are an apologist for israel but just in case I am wrong here we go.

First of all read this article by Patrich Buchanan. Here are some quotes from that article.

""Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27"

"The Israeli paper then summarized what the justice minister and general were saying: "In other words, a village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire." That was Thursday."

""One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman."

So there are three quotes by highly places israeli diplomats telling the world in no uncertain terms that they intend to kill civillians. We know by know that they were telling the truth because they carried out their threats and destroyed entire villages and displaced a million people.

Furthermore Israel USED CLUSTER BOMBS INSIDE CITIES which are designed to cause maximum damage to civillians. If you want to avoid civillian deaths you don't use cluster bombs inside of cities. You act like a man and send your army in there. Only cowards or sadists drop cluster bombs inside of a city to try and get a handful of terrorists.

Finally there is this damning report by amnesty international.

I could sit here all day and pull out one link after another but as I said I don't expect you to actually read any of this or to let any of these facts penetrate your head. You are an apologist for this regime and you are incapable of thinking or saying anything negative about them. Certainly google is available to you just like it's available to me.

"I think there is an equal amount of culpability to be shared by all sides in this."

Really? Equal? Exactly 50/50? Does the fact that hezbollah killed more soldiers then civillians and israel killed more civillians then soldiers make a difference at all?

"I just think that we are better served in discussion if we stick to things that actually happened."

Yes lets to do that. You want to start with the 15,000 kidnapped and imprisoned arabs rotting in israeli dungeons without trials, juries, charges or lawyers? You want to start with the regime of torture? Or perhaps you want to start with these stats?

At the risk of going off topic, http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-sentence s-eng tells me there where over 8000 executions in china compared to 60 in the US last year. Wikipedia states that the US has some 299,102,661 people so thats works out at around 2.00600021 × 10^-7 executions per capita (or decapita per capita :). But China has some 1,315,844,000 people (wikipedia) so around 6.07974806 × 10^-6 executions per capita.

So like I said China wins.

if you want to look at the big picture, then let's look at everything in it.

It depends on who's figures you are reading and which media you are listening to.

How about years and years of killing that have been going on in Israel by Hizballah and Hamas terrorist organizations?

The Arab view is that it was Western guilt over the death of 6 million Jews that led to the creation of Israel. It involved displacement of local Arabs and Palestinians and they are still pissed over it. I don't blame them. Besides, the ratio of the numbers dead in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict runs at 6:1 (thats 6 palestinians dead for each Israeli casualty). You may want revise your position that it is Israel that suffers from Hamas bombs. 'Terrorism', i.e., wanton destruction of civilian lives happens both ways. Its an acquired skill that both the sides have had a lot of time to hone.

Hizballah and Hamas terrorist organizations

Hizbollah and Hamas that are known only as terrorist organizations to Americans are popularly known as resistance movements and social organizations in the non-American parts of the world. At slashdot I would expect you to be a little more balanced in your approach to world affairs. For example, Hezbollah runs schools, hospitals, and provides Medicare coverage to the poor in Lebanon.

use civilians AND UN folks as living shields on the battlefield

Thats an old ploy of the Israeli army as well. In war neither side is good. Read the reports by the UNHCR and the Red Cross. Wilfull shooting at kids by Israeli soldiers is often blamed by popular media to be a Palestinian 'strategy'. Read this at the Amnesty International website and not this.

As a sidenote, make a regular habit of visiting the english version of Al-Jazeera [http://english.aljazeera.net]. You may find that it is the wrong point of view - but when half the world follows the 'wrong' point of view it is no longer 'wrong' - it is 'relevant'.

"And yes, Iran and Saudi Arabia have higher HDI than India"

Yes, well. If they didn't have all that oil to sit on they'd be as poor as Lesotho, feudal dumps that they are socially. AT least the Indian STATE does not sanction stoning women to death or chopping their hands off. The actions of people notwithstanding.

"but the vast majority of Indians are still rotting in an unimaginably socially oppressive environment that is based on casteism and anti-women practices"

Well, presumably you're a Pakistani troll , a self-hating Indian, or some left wing liberal buffoon so obsessed with hating India that you had to take time away from whatever little life you had to look at obscure websites. I never denied that women were treated badly in many parts of the country.

However, let's not talk about Pakistan's many honor killings:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA3301819 99

or these ladies who have a thing or two to say about treatment of women in another muslim country of ill repute:
http://www.rawa.org/

"And did I forget to mention that in your vaunted Indian law rape within marriage is not considered a crime"

More quote mining from an inbred troll. Quote INDIAN PENAL LAW from a credible source that says that rape is allowed, then talk my friend (or do you prefer Janaab?)...

"almost 80% of Indians live below the US$ 2/day income level"

You can get a lot of food in India for $2, my friend. Too bad that you may have to survive on hamburgers that make you as fat as Michael Moore.

"BTW, your "voluntary dowry" phrase made me laugh! Just shows that an entire society (including the "educated" elite) has succumbed to the social evil instead of fighting it"

Too bad you can't quote any reliable stats to back up your screed against India.Forced dowry sucks, but basic dowry customs are meant for providing a financial boost to the bride and groom, so nothing wrong with it. It's only a problem when the in-laws decide to pocket the money and make the bride suffer. There are laws in India that arrest the entire family of the groom when such a thing is reported in an FIR. We have gone a long way to curb this issue, and no idiot slashdot troll can change that as part of some hate-propaganda campain (as though slashdot is the place for such things). Go troll in a Paki forum, they'll like you there.

Here, I'll help you. You can try using wonderful choice phrases: 'nigger','dothead','Indian hindu chutyia haraami','Indian bastard','deserves to be ethnically cleansed','animals','urine drinkers','no dogs or Indians allowed' and , let's see. What else can we think up to get a hater started ...?

For generations, people have not been able to digest their food without housting a few drinks and attacking Indians on the streets. gave life meaning to so many of them...

Enjoy yourself. At this point most of us are too busy doing things to care if a few fringe elements hate us.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International has placed Google and other biggies on their list of Internet companies who are helping the oppressors and not the opressed. (http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT300162006)

Of course the story was spiked by the editors of a particular nerd news site.

That list is not so different from the list of countries that still permit the death penalty. I suppose that comes from a general disregard for human life common to countries in both lists.

Very powerful point... except it is not really true. I hate when people make up crap on the spot to justify whatever they want to say. WMD's anyone? Yes, there is an intersection between these lists, but only about half of the countries listed above have death penalty, and most countries that have death penalty are NOT on this list. (See here)

-Em

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR2000220 03

On 6 September 1995, Dudley George, aged 38, was killed by a police sniper during a Native land protest at Ipperwash Provincial Park. The officer who fired the fatal shot was subsequently convicted of knowingly shooting an unarmed man. Amnesty International and numerous other bodies have raised serious questions about the circumstances of the shooting, including the role played by public officials in the police decision to use a high level of force against a relatively peaceful and not clearly illegal protest.

Are you trying to imply that doing your best to make sure the laws are enforced is a bad thing ? No matter how unpopular a law is, it's still law as long as it is on the books. You would not want to live in a world where people can pick and choose what laws they obey.

Right, only certian people should be allowed to pick and choose what laws they obey

My concern is the almost inevitable expansion of this program to things other than cp. The past actions of this government (secret illegal wiretapping, datamining bank records, holding US citizens for years without charging them with a crime, touture, etc) show just how little the current administration cares about the privacy and constitutional rights of Americans and leads me to beleive that (if a system like this is built) iti s only a matter of time before it is used to monitor and archive internet traffic and look for many things other than cp (copyrighted files? normal/legal porn? political dissent?)

will spammers get the death penalty? Think I just found the ultimate ethical delimma for the average slashdotter. Is it good if China executes a spammer, but does so in it's new fleet of mobile lethal injection vans and harvests the organs for sale? When cheering the execution of spammers, which at least half the readership here has been waiting for, can you be sure your celebration is for a real spammer or a political dissident?

And the best bit is that, at least in the lower house, because we use preferential voting your protest vote isn't wasted when your protest candidate is eliminated, but gets reassigned to your next preference, all the way down until it reaches... erm... whichever of the two largely indistinguishable mainstream parties you didn't put last.

Which is why, of a chamber of 150 members, 4 are not members of the ALP or the Lib/Nat "coalition". Of course the senate, which practises a form of proportional representation, is much more diverse. With 76 members, 10 are not from the two main parties.

Naturally, this simply demonstrates how well the two dominant parties serve Australians' needs.

But I do like compulsory voting. (And not just because it means that the guy who went to prison rather than pay the fine for not voting qualifies as a prisoner of conscience and gets Australia a guernsey in the Amnesty International yearbook...)

... an estimated 100,000 Kurdish civilians who "disappeared" in 1988 in the so-called "Operation Anfal"; ...

In October Amnesty International published a report, Iraq: "Disappearances" _ unresolved cases since the early 1980s, in which it appealed to the government to put an end to "disappearances" and to clarify the fate of hundreds of thousands of people who had "disappeared" since the early 1980s.

I certainly hope that other companies, particularly Yahoo, which has been implicated in providing information to US authorities, will feel pressured by Google's recent announcement to be more candid about their own policies regarding operations in the US. If our big Internet players were to stand up for what is right, it'd be a powerful statement for human rights.

Yes, the link is fake.

But you did know that Amnesty has a record on every major country, right?

Honestly, I am not sure how complying with local laws can be construed as 'doing evil'. I don't regard Google as evil when they comply with US laws. Yes, the government may be evil and the laws may be ugly (DMCA anyone?), but regarding a company doing business in such a country as evil? I don't hear many calls for Google to pull out of the US. Do you?

Did you know that Google censors search results in Germany and France too? And again, I don't hear many calls for Google to pull out of Germany or France.

Yes, I understand that China is a sensitive issue. But things aren't as clear cut as some people (in general, not you in particular) seem to think.

Google is one of the very few companies which have a chance to remain "morally good" while still being successful. They just need to know that the people appreciate their "don't be evil" credo. For those who care checkout http://web.amnesty.org/pages/internet-110506-actio n-eng. regards lukas

I certainly hope that other companies, particularly Yahoo, which has been implicated in providing information to Chinese authorities leading to the arrest of political dissidents, will feel pressured by Google's recent announcement to be more candid about their own policies regarding operations in China. If our big Internet players were to stand up for what is right, it'd be a powerful statement for human rights.

From Amnesty International, in English and French too.

I didn't find the article I was looking for, but I already read about the fact that Russia really doesn't sell that much small arms comparatively to other important weapons-selling countries. They however are selling lots of big equipment like airplanes.

From Amnesty International, in English and French too.

I didn't find the article I was looking for, but I already read about the fact that Russia really doesn't sell that much small arms comparatively to other important weapons-selling countries. They however are selling lots of big equipment like airplanes.

State-sponsored abuse of women in pakistan:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA3301819 99

  Now, I am aware that there are remote parts of India where women are mistreated as well. The difference between us and Pakistan is that the atrocities in Pakistan are endorsed by the state (there are clauses in Pakistani Law that can be used to legally commit honor-killings). Local regions in pakistan are run by clansmen and religious mullahs, who harbor terrorists and commit human-rights violations all the time. No Hindu priest has this much political power.

  We are a democracy, you are not. It's that simple...

  anti-semitism, anti-zionism, racism and xenophobia in pakistan (bttom of TFA)

http://www.axt.org.uk/antisem/archive/archive1/pak istan/pakistan.htm

  anti-semitism in India: ZERO (except by muslims like Lashkar-e-Toiba, big surprise)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Jews

Mukhtar Mai:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhtar_Mai

That's fucking bullshit. The only reason you think that is because domestic news sources give it more publicity when it condemns the US for "War on Terror" tactics, rather than when it does something boring like talking about massacres in South America or the Darfur conflict.

Have you even looked at the Amnesty International website? Here let me show you a quote from their 2006 annual report that describes, "...widespread rape and killings continued - most shockingly in Darfur - against a background of poverty and disease." Source: http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/globaloverview-e ng

Yes, the website does go on to criticize the US for one full sentence, and it also makes damn sure that China's rural policies, torture by Middle-Eastern governments, and incredibly poverty in Africa are mentioned as well.

Also, do you know WHY America gets criticzed for even (relatively, compared to the Darfur genocide) slips in human rights records? This is because Americans - me included - consider their country to be a role model for the rest of the world. We obviously aren't as bad as China when it comes to censorship or Syria when it comes to torture, but why are we even comparing ourselves to that? Does it really feel that good to say, "well, at least we aren't as bad as the Darfur Janjaweed militia?" We hold ourselves to a higher moral standard, and I see nothing wrong when international human rights organizations call us out when we lapse from that standard. If we consider ourselves a symbol of freedom and democracy in the world, we better be able to take flak when we deviate in any way from those principles.

"Silent about genocide, subjugated poverty and terror; up to and including denial of distribution of UN medicine to children resulting in the deaths of 100K+ under 18 because of political alliances."

I'm sorry, but that's complete bullshit.

Silent about genocide? From their on website (http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/globaloverview- eng), "In Africa, the number of armed conflicts declined following several peace agreements in 2005. But widespread rape and killings continued - most shockingly in Darfur - against a background of poverty and disease." Their worldwide report condens mass killings in numerous other countries as well.

Here's a full link to the Amnesty website disucssing the Darfur genocide in depth as well as other African issues: http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/2af-summary-eng.

In addition to that, I've seen numerous speakers from AI giving lectures/talks about the Darfur genocide. Your comment isn't just offensive because it's a lie, but because you're slandering one of the few organizations that's exerting public pressure to relieve the plight of the Darfur people.

I'm afraid I couldn't find a single source for Amnesty International causing deaths by denying children medicine; please feel free to post a news link from a credible source. Also, I'm curious, how does an NGO, primarily funded by private donations, have the power and reach to deny "100k+ under 18" kids medicine?

Feel free to call me blind, but all I see in the middle of their homepage is a purple box talking about the state of the world's human rights. And searching on their page for the phrase "Search engines restricted." [from your quote of them] doesn't return any results.

If you could give us the URL where you saw that, I (along with many others) would greatly appreciate it!

America has just executed 10,000 Iraqi civilians which overshadows the Chinese total. At least in China they get a trial even if you do not like it. In the Cuba there are almost 500 people that were rounded up by the US from various countries and disapeared. Do you really think that Chinese labout camps are somehow worse than Gauntanamo? At least the Chinese are getting rid of theirs and are moving in the opposite direction to the US.

Bikering causes things to be said that take on the wrong light. I love my time in China and love the Chinese people. They are warm and friendly and enjoy their freedom to say what they like when they like. I learnt many things about China which were at odds with what I had been told in advance. i.e. I met many people that had up to seven brothers and sisters etc. It is all propaganda. I also love America and the American people despite the many arguements I get into here and on other sites. I hate both governments and think that they are both as bad as each other. You may say that the American government is somehow better because it mainly kills and abuses non Americans while the Chinese government kills and abuses Chinese but I do not see this as justification. To me it is wrong to kill regardless.

If you read newspapers in other countries you will read stories like those you read at home about China but the stories in other countries are often about the things that America does. Some stories are true and some are not, just as is the case with what you read about China.

Yes they use the organs taken from the people that get executed, why not? As far as they are concerned someone whose life is forfeit has lost all rights so permission is not required. I do not see that as a big issue. I think that we should all donate our organs anyway so I agree with the policy.

Re-education through work? is that so different - http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR5109120 00 or http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR5106520 01

Get out of the glass house before you start to throw stones.

America has just executed 10,000 Iraqi civilians which overshadows the Chinese total. At least in China they get a trial even if you do not like it. In the Cuba there are almost 500 people that were rounded up by the US from various countries and disapeared. Do you really think that Chinese labout camps are somehow worse than Gauntanamo? At least the Chinese are getting rid of theirs and are moving in the opposite direction to the US.

Bikering causes things to be said that take on the wrong light. I love my time in China and love the Chinese people. They are warm and friendly and enjoy their freedom to say what they like when they like. I learnt many things about China which were at odds with what I had been told in advance. i.e. I met many people that had up to seven brothers and sisters etc. It is all propaganda. I also love America and the American people despite the many arguements I get into here and on other sites. I hate both governments and think that they are both as bad as each other. You may say that the American government is somehow better because it mainly kills and abuses non Americans while the Chinese government kills and abuses Chinese but I do not see this as justification. To me it is wrong to kill regardless.

If you read newspapers in other countries you will read stories like those you read at home about China but the stories in other countries are often about the things that America does. Some stories are true and some are not, just as is the case with what you read about China.

Yes they use the organs taken from the people that get executed, why not? As far as they are concerned someone whose life is forfeit has lost all rights so permission is not required. I do not see that as a big issue. I think that we should all donate our organs anyway so I agree with the policy.

Re-education through work? is that so different - http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR5109120 00 or http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR5106520 01

Get out of the glass house before you start to throw stones.

Would you please be specific about which innocent civilians the US is killing and where? Do you refer to Iraq and Afghanistan? Or do you refer to abortion rights in the US? I'm confused.

As for the current situation in China, it is less severe than under Mao's regime for the majority of citizens. However, China does still execute more people per year than the entire world combined. China still utilizes reeducation through labor, essentially prison labor camps. Slavery. And there have been many recent reports of organ harvesting of prisoners for sale on the international market.

I'm sorry, but I still don't think the human rights situation between the US and China comes close in comparison.

I'm sorry but if your default position was to believe the CIA and not Amnesty International then it's going to take more than superheroes to help you.

Can you name even one person who has been "shipped off sans due process to an offshore prison camp" who wasn't captured in a war zone under arms while not wearing a uniform?

Sorry, I have to call bullshit on that one.
Unless you call three squares a day and 5 prayer breaks torture.

Sorry, but Amnesty International disagrees with you. OK, maybe I exaggerated, Guantanamo isn't one of the worst prisons in the world. It's one of the worst AMERICAN prisons in the world. According to Amnesty Intl, "Guantánamo Bay has become a symbol of injustice and abuse in the US administration's 'war on terror'. It must be closed down".

There, happy now?

What the fuck is wrong with you people? You don't understand what a disgrace our nation has become? Illegal wars, torture and soon pre-emptive nuclear attacks against a nation that has not attacked us. Fuck you.

FTFA: The plans include
the establishment of "Humanitarian Road Shows", which will talk up American support for democracy and freedom.

First stop Guantanamo Bay! For more info see http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/usa-summary-eng

Hmmm... one problem is, once they have a central database of everyone, it become a lot easier to (reliably) round groups of people up overnight and lock them away (e.g round up all the Muslims, probably using census or other data in addition). It also becomes a lot simpler to effectively "erase" people's citizenship once you've got one central, definitive, database.

(There was, for example, Slovenia which managed to make most citizens belonging to ethnic minorities into non-citizens by quietly passing a law requiring them to re-register by a certain date that didn't apply to citizens of pure Slovenian ethnicity. I'm not sure how relevant that is, though.)

a country such as the US or EU which has basic respect for the rules of war (eg, the Geneva Convention)
Haha where have you been hiding?

Things are much worse than that. We've started locking up innocent people indefinitely, using anti-terrorist laws on Holocaust survivors and have introduced a Hitleresque dictatorship law.

Next on the agenda is the world's most intrusive mass surveillance system and a law to bypass Parliamentary scrutiny.

We are heading towards a police state faster than 1930s Germany and probably less than 0.1% of the population are doing a thing to stop it.

It's scary to see how quickly the defences against fascism which we've evolved over a millenium have been dismantled. Assuming you're a US citizen, defend your Constitution with your life. And stop rendition and Guantanamo, for God's sake.

I have been talking with the House of Lords (our second House) about opposing the ID Cards Bill and although they understand the Orwellian implications, they're scared to oppose it in case Blair abolishes the Lords altogether.

"The Chinese don't have anything similar to the Guantanamo base, where alleged terrorists are held, without being given status as prisoners of war, without the right to a lawyer, in order to interrogate them with torture off American soil."

Are you qualified and authorized to make that statement? How familiar are you with how China deals with its dissident groups, like, say, Falun Gong? Most of the outside world does not know what China does or does not have in that regard, because China is not exactly forthcoming about such matters. Amnesty International notes that a lot of secrecy surrounds China's judicial system, and believes that annual figures showing over 3,000 executions may actually represent one-third or less of all those carried out.

"The Chinese don't invade countries, going all against the UN, without a single thread of evidence for the alleged cause, like it happened in Iraq ("Weapons of mass destruction") and has it happened in Vietnam."

For much of history, certainly, this was true. And in the 20th century, China itself was sadly subjected to invasion and foreign occupation. However, I seem to recall China having... erm... "assimilated," shall we say, a little country called Tibet. And I can't imagine what large, powerful neighboring country might have been supplying the Viet Minh... can you? Oh, and there's that little dispute about Taiwan, I suppose.

"I think it is time the Americans start to realize that AMERICA is today's Nazi regime, NOT China."

A lot of us realize this. A lot of us also realize that while America may be today's superpower, China is most likely tomorrow's. And we also realize (although you may not) that there's very significant cross-investment between the two countries, and that most of the "bad" things about each of the two tend to be closely related to the other.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting, if a bit impolite, dialogue.

"it is the duty of the Free to selflessly attempt to liberate the oppressed" reek of cultural imperialism?

Defining the terms a certain way, I agree with your point here. I think Animal Farm is the book that comes to mind here.

Certainly it's within the rights of all to try, but in what sense is our protection of free speech in the West categorically superior to the prevailing Chinese attitude that censorship may sometimes be necessary in order to preserve culture and maintain social order, aims that we in the West, I think, can agree are desirable.

"Preservation of culture" and "maintenance of social order" are not, in my opinion, necessarily the best benchmarks. My anthropology text in school made an interesting point regarding the dangers of both "ethnocentrism" (which you refer to in the first paragraph) and "cultural relativism" (which you refer to in the latter paragraph).

IMHO, the most critical benchmarks in judging a culture is the physical, psychological and spiritual well-being of the participants in it, as well as the the wellness of cultures that are interdependant to it.

For example, I think it wouldn't be terribly valuable to preserve the cultural tradition of "female circumcision" (see http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/Agnes_Pareiyo-e ng). And while maintaining social order is valuable, maintaining it at the expense of social justice is not acceptable.

• Iran executed at least 159 people, and Viet Nam at least 64. There were 59 executions in the USA, down from 65 in 2003.
• Eight countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime China, Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, USA and Yemen.
• China, Pakistan and Yemen have raised the minimum age to 18 in law, and Iran is reportedly in the process of doing so.
• The USA executed more child offenders than any other country (19 between 1990 and 2003).

America doesn't do business with itself? Do you have any idea what the U.S. is doing in Guantanamo Bay?

First of all, on a per-capita basis the U.S is more oppressive to its citizens then the Chinese government. An American is almost four times as likely to be imprisoned then a Chinese citizen. In fact, the US has more total people in jail then the Chinese, despite the fact that china has almost four times as many people as the US.

Nice try, but no. If you measure "repression on a per capita basis" as simply number of people per capita in jail, you are completely ignorring that this is mostly likely not "repression" as much as "enforcing the law". As well, it also ignors that the conviction in rate in China is over 95% and there is no such concept as Jurisprudence or Miranda Rights. Additionally, on a per capita basis, China has many times the number of people imprisoned which would possibly be classified as "political dissidents", even though many would classify our Gitmo detainees this way.

So in short, I call "bullshit" on your "bullshit". read up and comapre.

First of all, on a per-capita basis the U.S is more oppressive to its citizens then the Chinese government. An American is almost four times as likely to be imprisoned then a Chinese citizen. In fact, the US has more total people in jail then the Chinese, despite the fact that china has almost four times as many people as the US.

Nice try, but no. If you measure "repression on a per capita basis" as simply number of people per capita in jail, you are completely ignorring that this is mostly likely not "repression" as much as "enforcing the law". As well, it also ignors that the conviction in rate in China is over 95% and there is no such concept as Jurisprudence or Miranda Rights. Additionally, on a per capita basis, China has many times the number of people imprisoned which would possibly be classified as "political dissidents", even though many would classify our Gitmo detainees this way.

So in short, I call "bullshit" on your "bullshit". read up and comapre.

It's us in the west who do not see political dissidents (at least I hope we don't...) as criminals.

perhaps. perhaps not

Right, and we are better than the chinese. I have not seen bejing invading a foreign country the last few years on bullshit reasons... I could be wrong...

So the question is, why are people so offended when Google censors for China, but think the same behavior is fine for Europe?

Could it be because in China they are colluding with an oppressive totalitarian regime to control the flow of information and so helping the regime to remain in power? Whereas in France and Germany they've just made a pragmatic decision to go along with some quaint local laws about what cannot be mentioned.

I agree that the cases are of the same type - and I wish they hadn't capitulated in either case - but in magnitude they're very different and that does matter. It's shoplifting and murder: they're both against the law, but people are correct to be more outraged by one than the other.

Unless they make a strong effort to publicise to the Chinese people the nature and extent of the censorship they live under - and a muttered footnote is not good enough - this is straightforward, profit-motivated evil corporate behaviour. Very disappointing.

Eh, is this what this is all about?

Countries having their own rights with thier own country code???

excuse my previous lack of knowledge in my previous post, \\ICANN is doing EXACTLY what they are supposed to do. America has no right to dictate to other countries on how to run, regulate or govern their own censorship bodies.
If the ISP is within the ccTLDs Country it is governed by that countries internet laws. end of story.

If an american posted to a ccTLD say in... CANADA with Hate literature about say anything we have laws about on a canadian ISP where we have laws against that sort of stuff no matter how much bawling about freedom of speech you did, we wouldnt be able to do anything but take your sorry site down, do to canadian CRTC cencorship laws. sorry. thats the law.

for example Canada Skinhead A posts BLAHBLAHHATEGRRRBLAH
to the msg board in to HATEHATEHATE.tv
the CRTC here in Canada could still bust skinhead A here for posting hate literature throught a Canadian ISP and his Canadian ISP would HAVE to comply with the RCMP and provide logs etc that prove or disprove his involvement in his postings. Regardless of the law in the country of origin of HATEHATEHATE.tv. so ICANN has no control over that. don't blame them. change the law if you dont like it. but change it in yer own country. or instead of bitching here where it does little to nothing write a letter to Amnesty International where it does do something.
look them up
http://www.amnesty.org/