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Trying to get the price down to competitive levels requires all kinds of compromises in terms of build details, quality, etc. Edges don't meet quite flush

On the whole, I think you make an excellent argument, but with my 2006 MacBook, I have to say I've been disappointed with the build quality since day one. "If this was made by Sony the battery would be flush with the body", I thought to myself. "If Apple cared about quality, the top case wouldn't be cracked."

That said, I'll be in the market for a MacBook Pro come May. :-)

I'm intrigued, why do people think Apple's hardware is wonderful? We've seen engineering defects like the iPhone 4 antenna, to the easily scratched iPod nano problem, the discolouring MacBooks, the MagSafe power adapters, the overheating iPhone 3GS, and so on, and so on (this site seems to list a bunch: http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page). Also, Apple hardware tends to offer a very poor performance to price ratio compared to competitors in that competitors tend to be cheaper with higher specced hardware of equal quality.

I don't disagree on the software front, Apple software really does stand out (well, bar a few fuckups such as iTunes), but what's so great about Apple hardware? barely a product release seems to go by where there isn't some sizable defect.

Agreed.

2GB RAM and 320GB disk is the spec I bought (admittedly in a generic Dell PC) three years ago, for £450. Now Apple would like me to pay £649 for much the same thing.

Yes, I know Apple hardware is better built (ignoring for a moment the more serious design mistakes) but that Apple price premium always keeps me away from their products - I consider it a tax on stupidity.

Agreed.

2GB RAM and 320GB disk is the spec I bought (admittedly in a generic Dell PC) three years ago, for £450. Now Apple would like me to pay £649 for much the same thing.

Yes, I know Apple hardware is better built (ignoring for a moment the more serious design mistakes) but that Apple price premium always keeps me away from their products - I consider it a tax on stupidity.

Agreed.

2GB RAM and 320GB disk is the spec I bought (admittedly in a generic Dell PC) three years ago, for £450. Now Apple would like me to pay £649 for much the same thing.

Yes, I know Apple hardware is better built (ignoring for a moment the more serious design mistakes) but that Apple price premium always keeps me away from their products - I consider it a tax on stupidity.

So from this post we learn that AnonClown has never bought much in the way of Apple hardware... ;)

The 'high quality' of Apple products seems to me to almost be urban myth, I have seen many examples which tell another story. AppleDefects.com has a "pretty good" list of their historical quality issues, although I do find it puzzling that their IBook G4 page has no entries, considering how many people suffered through the kernel panic issues they had thanks to faulty design of the wireless card socket* (fixed in gen2, of course).

Mod me down, fanboys, but as an Apple Outsider my impressions of their 'quality', and the very poor way in which they deal with it at times - especially considering the premium that their clientele pay - is what gives me this impression.

*(like the G4 wireless issue, their solution was to buy a new mobo - for ~$800 - when it could be fixed like I have several times with a folded sheet of paper)

The list is very nice when looking over a decade-plus period, but for the most recent fuck-ups, I often check out the AppleDefects wiki. My number one interest at the moment is the power adapter for the MacBook laptops (MagSafe). This baby has been fraying, melting and even burning holes in bed sheets.

The list is very nice when looking over a decade-plus period, but for the most recent fuck-ups, I often check out the AppleDefects wiki. My number one interest at the moment is the power adapter for the MacBook laptops (MagSafe). This baby has been fraying, melting and even burning holes in bed sheets.

"Apple as far as product quality hasn't done much to waver most people trust."

You mean apart from the fire hazard magsafe adapters, the easily scratched iPod nanos, the discolouring and poorly hinged MacBooks, the exploding iPhones, defectice 17" PowerBook displays?

Apple makes a lot of nice products, but any suggestion that Apple products are of a high product quality is an outright myth. It's been noted before that Apple uses sweatshops in Asia to produce it's products, and uses highly pollutant materials because they're the cheapest option. If product quality was a priority for Apple they would not use cheap materials, and would not use cheap poorly trained sweatshop labour.

If you want a cool product then Apple is the place to go, if you want a quality product, then it's absolutely not - see here for a good, but incomplete list of common quality issues across some of their products: http://appledefects.com/

"But what do you get in hardware? All sorts of things. For example: Magsafe connects don't exist on ANY PC laptops. Neither do any PC laptops have unibody cases."

First, we were discussing the Mac Mini not MacBooks. I'm not building my own laptop.

"A pen with a built in clock and a can opener isn't better than a good quality pen."

Your implying the pen with the built in clock is inferior as a writing instrument and projecting that inferiority on the PC I choose. You are assuming the components used in my PC are inferior quality to those in the Mac, and that is where your argument fails.

I can use the same components that Apple uses (aside from the pretty case) and still build my PC for less. So again, the difference in price has nothing to do with the hardware specs or quality and everything to do with OS X and the aesthetics.

"A good tool is a pleasure to use, is reliable, and has a solid company behind it offering excellent support."

The PC I am currently using is 4 years old and the only problem I have had is the DVD drive. It cost me $22 to replace it versus the $99 for the external SuperDrive or the $119 for the Lacie external drive. (I don't have a Mac, so I don't know what the actual service charge for replacing the internal drive would be from Apple, but you can order an official internal Superdrive here for $179 ON SALE!!!!)

Perhaps you should read this article, this website or maybe cruise through the Apple forums. Just because Apple products cost more does not mean they inherently last longer or run better. They still have problems just like all PCs.

Apple has a few black eyes over the years for how they have handled their customer support as well.

"I think it compares more with the luxury car market. You pay more for a car that will last longer, look nicer, and run better. It's the same thing with computers. Apple only sells premium models so I know any Apple product I buy will be high quality."

Perhaps you should read this article, this website or maybe cruise through the Apple forums. Just because Apple products cost more does not mean they inherently last longer or run better. They still have problems just like all PCs.

"Last year's Mac hasn't devalued the way last year's PC has because people know the Mac isn't going to need replaced every other year."

Really? PCs need to be replaced "every other year"?
I think the high resale value of Macs have more to do with the fact that Apple can sustain their inflated price point because they are the only ones selling their product. PC vendors on the other hand have competition to think about and must adjust their pricing accordingly.

indeed, Apple has gone beyond even Japanese cars when it comes to the detail of their products...

Ever since I bought my MacBook, I've found myself thinking that if Sony had made it, the build quality would have been better.

Intially this was just disappointment that my new toy's battery wasn't flush with the bottom of the case. The cracks that have appeared on the keyboard plane / palm rest have me feeling like a muppet for having bought a poorly made product.

the magsafe power connector means I'll never have to worry about the socket breaking free from the motherboard

Once the connector bursts into flames, I'll bet you wish it had.

And at $1100, the 13" macbook is extremely competitive with comparably priced hardware.

No way. Not at all, it isn't.

It's not out of the ordinary to see coupons for $400+ off Dell or other PC manufacturers' laptops. Mac users always overlook the PC coupons. They think it works like Apple where the price is final no matter what.

And even without coupons, I can get hardware with specs superior to the $1100 MacBook for $750 elsewhere. More hard drive space, double the memory, bigger screen, better battery, a full DVD writer, over double the USB ports, a media card reader, an ExpressCard slot, and even a built-in faxmodem for road trips.

Apple cannot win on price. Ever. Their only advantage was Mac OS X, and they've even managed to screw that up lately.

Yeah, let's not forget screens (a friend has dozens of these, which thusly account for thousands of dead pixels), batteries or any of the other components, really.

Hardware failures are common and it wouldn't be a real problem if (1) Apple's harware wasn't so homogeneous, so that when a few users have a problem, others will probably follow and (2) Apple didn't send blindfolds (glossy, shiny, but still blindfolds) to anyone who complained, claiming the warranty is of one year only when my country's laws clearly state that it lasts 2 years if the product was sold here, regardless of who made it and where.

On a sidenote, they're so picky chosing the right RAM byte by byte that I've been waiting for a replacement for a stick for 2 months. It's not my computer and it's not regularly used, but still...

I, a macbook pro owner, testify that it has been invented by Apple for pretty some time. The MBP's shock is subtle, but when I kiss my wife while holding my MBP, I do feel it.

Counter example is this http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook

So what happens when your power adapter breaks?

Maybe he also could base it on this http://appledefects.com/ or the fact that software products such as "Quiet Mac Book Pro" were made (it wastes CPU cycles to get rid of a buzzing noise after Apple didn't do anything about that for months), or the fact it runs at 70 degrees.
Maybe he's waited in the customer service line before and it hadn't been so damn long.
Personally I had to take my MacBookPro to the repairer 6 times! and the only time I had to take in my G4 Powerbook was for the battery recall. (I also have 2 dead pixels and a warped case for the MacBookPro).

There is more than enough evidence that Apple dropped the ball on hardware quality for laptops. I was stupid for getting a first generation item (I needed a laptop for work at the time), but it would be good to know that if I was to get a replacement laptop from Apple in the future, I could do so with confidence.

Perhaps it should be stated--once again--that Apple is essentially a hardware company. As many others have pointed out, when they control the hardware AND the software they have much better control over the entire experience.

If this is the case, why are they selling essentially PCs these days? And why are there so many problems with this "we control the variables" experience -- the overheating, the cases cracking, the too-hot power supplies? I own a Macbook and while I like the computer and want to drink the kool-aid, I (and others) can't help but think it will die after a short life.

They're "designed" to be attractive, but they're not designed for any kind of durability or reliability, which makes me think they're just an expensive consumer electronics item with an all-too-obvious planned obsolesence.

Not to mention that a hardware business model is inherently more defendable than a software one since you can't make quick digital copies of hardware.

They could sell OS X for non-Apple hardware with hardware keys to limit copying.

Yeah Apple have a great reputation.

Given apple's record for poor build quality, I wouldn't chance running without the clock throttling. You won't kill the Intel parts, but you will probably kill something that apple designed or built. Many apple users of the macbook and macbook pro machines have been having serious issues with the poor build quality of these machines (eg. http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php, and many others)
All eighteen Apple machines that were bought in my company within the last two years have failed. Around half of these were just outside the warranty period, and nearly all were expensive enough to fix that they justified replacement with cheap but reliable Windows/Linux desktops.
My company no longer buys Apple, and we no longer buy any hardware that does not offer a 3 year warranty as standard. Generally, we have found apple machines to have pretty and durable enclosures, but there is incredible stupidity in the lack of proper ventillation / heat extraction in some apple machines, and an unbelievable arrogance when confronting apple with the design flaws.

Apple at one time built to last with good solid parts and also by patronizing good facilities.

The only laptop fires I've heard about lately were Dells.

That's because Apple-apologist Slashdot rejects all stories about Apple explosions/fires. Here are just a few that are recent:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41783769@N00/
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/apple-powerbook s-eksploderer-too-191968.php

And just for good measure, here's some melting problems:

http://www.248am.com/mark/computers/macbook-pro-ma gsafe-melt-down/
http://www.appledefects.com/?p=74

Hey, for Apple, or anybody else for that matter, a 12% market share is great! Too bad all those lousy hardware problems arising from cheap parts and sweatshop factories in 3rd-world Chinese sweatshops are so widespread. See http://appledefects.com/.

I switched back because of the horrid quality of Apple hardware the last few years.

And with the build quality of the MacBook family, I won't be surprised if there will be more who jump ship because they cannot find a suitable replacement for their PowerPC machines.

Right now is the worst possible time to move to a Mac. First of all the MacBooks and MacBook Pros are plagued with many issues as nicely documented here. More importantly, Microsoft and Adobe still have not ported their software over along with numerous smaller third party vendors. How do you suppose customers will feel when they realize they bought software titles that aren't even native for their machines quite yet? Unless you use Apple's own consumer-oriented products, you are screwed for the time being.

Then of course are the issues with OS X itself. Too many to mention, but nicely summed up over at Rixstep.

I was actually hoping that the move to Intel was going to mean lower hardware prices now that under the hood there is no discernible difference in parts from bargain basement PCs. Instead, Apple continues to charge a premium for their hardware and even ask for an extra $150 for a color (e.g. MacBlack). I have owned and used Macs since 1997, but once my PowerBook breathes its last I will be migrating to a cheap PC running Ubuntu.

I'm currently dual booting OS X and Ubuntu and now find myself booted into the latter a lot more often.

Cheers,
Ian

Apple has already implemented that feature in their older ibook line of lapt...I mean notebooks ;)

How come http://www.appledefects.com/ get NOOO LOVE?

good for them, apples product quality is TERRIBLE

all you die hard mac fans need to wake up and stop listening to the L ron HUBBARDISH Steve Jobs

god i hate apple

peace

You should read the forum threads, or the summary page at appledefects.com. This staining of Macbooks is different from the accumulation of surface dirt on your iBook. Reportedly, Mr. Clean Magic Eraser has been tried, and does not work.

Spray some f* Windex on your Macbook and whipe it clean with a proper cleaning cloth.

Among the remedies tried has been the popular iKlean line of products, Windex and even the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser all with different degrees of success.

> Looks, quality, Size, and Silent.

Here you go:
looks
quality
size
silent

> Looks, quality, Size, and Silent.

Here you go:
looks
quality
size
silent

> Looks, quality, Size, and Silent.

Here you go:
looks
quality
size
silent

> Looks, quality, Size, and Silent.

Here you go:
looks
quality
size
silent