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"I'd prefer to see App Bundle distributions similar to OS X"

Such a thing actually exists:

http://klik.atekon.de/

I wonder how hard it would be to make it possible to do links in a browser that install packages. Of course, you would need the appropriate messages and user interaction, but, say you could have an instruction page that says: Install [Apache] [PHP5] [MySQL]. The user clicks on Apache in their browser, it opens a package manager, and prompts them to confirm they actually want to install it.

It's been done; Klik is your answer. From the Wikipedia article:

klik does not "install" software in the traditional sense (i.e., it does not put files all over the place in the system). It uses one .cmg file per application. Each one is self-contained: it includes all libraries the application depends on and that are not part of the base system. In this regard, it is similar to "application virtualization". One can klik a file even if they are not a superuser, or they are using a live CD.

klik is integrated with web browsers on the user's computer. Users download and install software by typing a URL beginning with klik://. This downloads a klik "recipe" file, which is used to generate the .cmg file. In this way, one recipe can be used to supply packages to a wide variety of platforms.

Thanks, however the only once I know working on this is the Burgdorf Packaging API which is a low-level solution being sponsored by the LSB, and higher level solutions like Zero Install and Klik. Klik is very self-contained by using program "images" so it has sandboxing, and several other features. Zero Install uses "feeds" or URLs so it can get automatic program updates right from the source, and has various other features as well and will have sandboxing too eventually. Both systems are completely cross-distro and completely avoid dependency conflicts (something that should never ever happen if the package format was made well). Awww, you have two versions of libraryX you want to install but they dun wanna be both installed? It's called name one libraryX1.0 and one libraryX1.1 or something, sheesh. =P And tell the library maintainers to use a more stable API so that both aren't required! ^^

Any way, yeah, everyone, both developers and users alike, would radically benefit from having actually accessible Linux software, you could actually share the damn stuff for one thing with your friends no matter what "distro" they are running. One problem I think there is is that a distro would be more of a collection of software is all, and maybe a certain way the package manager was configured or the directory structure was configured or whatnot (something that should be easily changeable), but there would no longer be such segregation/proprietization of software. You like the network applet program Ubuntu uses and want it in Fedora? OK, well since it's all open source and it's all Linux, it should be easy to install it, if there were cross-distro binary packages, otherwise good luck compiling with all those dependencies, and if you're a "normal" user you're screwed and your choice is whether or not to switch to Ubuntu, and I think that's what Canonical and other companies want, and that shouldn't be the way things are, that problem should not exist when it's all open source software.

Linux use will increase much faster after this happens, and it will happen eventually.

Interesting, but of course Linux has the main oomph behind it right now, and luckily many features are being shared, between all kernels and OSes out there right now. I believe this problem can be solved easily within Linux, without having to switch to P9 or Minix or anything else, but those are certainly life savers should anything completely fragment Linux.....more than it is now. =P

The Burgdorf Packaging API is one solution that will help solve the Linux package standardization issue, as well as more top-level solutions like Klik and Zero Install.

You should never be locked in to using only software provided by a distributor, software shouldn't be provided by them except to provide the convenience of the base installation bundle. Free Software has to mean freedom of accessibility, too. If no one can use some free software program due to it's proprietary nature and neglect of standards, that software isn't truly free. All of Sourceforge should be my Linux repository, and tools and standard APIs to easily search or add that software to my computer should be a concern on every developer's mind. It needs to be done easily so that Linux can actually reach the masses by allowing software to be more easily shared. Fragmentation and becoming proprietary and locked down hurts Linux and thus hurts everyone.

Help untangle the Linux software installation catastrophe by supporting proposed solutions like the Burgdorf Packaging API and cross-distro packaging formats like Klik and Zero Install. Once every Linux user has the ability to easily access the software which exists out there, instead of waiting on the whims of their distro's private software repository maintainers who have better things they could be doing, software will be much more "free".

sudo apt-get install ktouch
On a more serious note, there are many programs suitable for teaching kids...
Ever heard of Gcompris
On a more serious note have you ever LOOKED for type training, doodling, trivia games etc which you allege to be found in a primary school computer lab.
I have, (I have nephews) and I found just the selection one might want.
When I went through my primary school, we had a program called dazzle for Windows and Acorn (RISC OS), which was basically MS Paint, (or KolourPaint [ for FL/OSS childs doodling look at TuxPaint]). And we also had a program called. We also had a Acorn & Windows Word Processing Package, nothing special. Definitly much lower grade than Abiword or OO.o Writer. But more upmarket than wordpad.
What other things are needed in a primary schools computer lab?

You mean like klik?

http://klik.atekon.de/

I visited your Autopackage web site. I was quite impressed by the way you were able to figure out a set of simple instructions, understandable by grandma, that would work for most distros.

Once you can get the user to run a given application, the app itself can take over and be as user-friendly as you want, but the tricky part is to get them to run the app in the first place, using instructions that don't involve compromising the security of their Linux system. Your 4-step instructions, which don't involve any command line, was suitably impressive. You've figured out how to formulate the instructions so that it is consistent across the KDE and GNOME interfaces. (Having two possible desktop environments is a bit of hassle, isn't it, when it comes to giving user instructions?) And, even if the user fumbles around a lot and just happens to randomly succeed in getting Autopackage installed, from then on Autopackage is installed and s/he won't need to do it again.

In doing research for writing this reply, I learned about Zero Install from Wikipedia. This is also a distro-independent way to install software. Reading through the instructions, I see that it looks like you have to install the Zero Install launcher first, and then from then on you can install software. I think this is not as good as Autopackage, in which (apparently) the software installer comes with each and every package itself, so that grandma user doesn't need to do a separate step; just download TheSoftwarePackageIWant, and it will already set up Autopackage. (Presumably it's a stub that downloads the full Autopackage installer only if necessary, to save space?) Nevertheless, Zero Install is also a worthwhile system for allowing users to install software without waiting for the distro maintainers to do it.

Now, Klik is slightly different; as I understand it, it actually downloads and runs the program from a RAM disk, almost Knoppix-style (the last K in K.L.I.K used to stand for Knoppix). Very handy, from the developer standpoint, in establishing a way to temporarily install software in a consistent environment. That doesn't really matter to grandma users, though, and the main disadvantage I see for Klik is the complex first step that will turn lay users off: you have to get to a terminal (already a big hurdle) and then type in:

wget klik.atekon.de/client/install -O -|sh

But wait! If you run k/Ubuntu, first you have to type

sudo apt-get install binutils libstdc++5 rpm gnome-about

Not very user-friendly at all. (Granted, I don't think the goal of Klik is necessarily to be user-friendly.)

So, for the three systems, Autopackage, Zero Install, and Klik, I think Autopackage comes out the winner in terms of ease of posting instructions on the software author's web site. In other words, suppose I wrote a SuperDuper program that I want to give/sell to non-geek users of all sorts of Linux distros. Autopackage would best let my users download and run my software, without needing to send them to the actual web site for Autopackage / Zero Install / Klik itself.

Also, Autopackage and Zero Install have very friendly web pages, for when people do need to check them out. Klik has a very busy web page that's intimidating to new users, and, much as I hate to say this as a KDE fan, typical of how KDE is more for the technically minded people who want the dazzling array of switches and blinking lights, and not for the lay user who just wants to get things done.

But I'm impressed with the way packages can be basically distro independent now. I no longer think that having different packages is so much of an issue, and the software author who writes The Killer App (e.g. some cool game) no longer needs to wait for the distro maintainers in order to distribute the software.

All we need now is to spread th

...how long are we going to have to wait...?

Well, it's something I've been thinking a lot over the last years, and I'd like to share my thinking with you lot:

At this point, I don't think we're going to have a major breakthrough until Linux becomes third-party friendly.

Let me explain.

At the moment, the whole experience of using a Linux distribution is balanced between two parties: the user, and the developers of the distro. Linux distributions in general have come a LONG way in minding the user's convenience, but I am still not sure this will suffice.

Because the success of other platforms (well, Windows, alright) doesn't boil down to user friendliness, I think that much is clear by now. No, what made its success is that it fosters a rich environment of third parties -- entities that are neither the OS maker nor the user, yet benefits both.

Something that is still a long way from penetrating the Linux culture, I think.

At this point, let's imagine you're a third party (and as such, not particularly involved in the Linux world as such -- to you it's just a platform among others) and you wish to ship your software for Linux. What are your options? Well, and that's assuming you're even going to bother trying to figure out the whole mess, you can: try to ship various packages (.rpm and .deb, really) in the hope of covering a sufficient user base, while hoping it won't completely break next time some distro upgrades to libwhatever.so.52; or you can try to get your software into the package repositories of all the major distributions (and thus become entirely dependant on the goodwill of each distro for access to your software); or you can try to package the software your own way and hope for the best (that's what Loki did for their games, for instance), which is still vastly suboptimal because it's a lot of additional work for you and you still have no guarantee it'll work well, due to countless issues, the least of which not being that ELF has real, real issues where it comes to binary compatibility. Oh, and yeah, you can also just ship the sources in a tarball, hereby reducing your user base to the demographic of Linux geeks.

Compare with Windows: just put the binaries in a ZIP file or an installer. Done.

And let us not mention the issue of drivers. At this point, shipping a driver for Linux, when you're a neutral hardware maker third party, involves either sending the kernel maintainers your code and hope they'll consent to include it in the main kernel tree at some unknown point in the future, or ship some manner of hack that will try to compile your driver against the installed kernel, which will simply not work if the compiler, or even the right kernel headers, aren't already installed. (To be fair, the initiative that was recently spoken of on Slashdot, about some company developing Linux drivers for third parties for free, is interesting and might improve the situation lots.)

In short: when you're a third party, supporting Linux is generally not worth the pain.

This is a very bad situation for us, because we need hardware makers to support our platform, so there isn't an ongoing gap of weeks or months between the release of bleeding edge hardware and its support on Linux, and there is just plain not enough of us to reproduce the functionality of all the software third parties are making for other platforms

Admittedly, projects like Klik and Autopackage are a step in the right direction, but isn't it too little and perhaps even too late? I don't know.

Because the main, the core issue here is not technical.

The core issue is that when you discuss something like Autopackage, the response typically amounts to "Why don't you use .debs | use .rpms | fork your own distro?"

And this, my friends, is why I've lost hopes of seeing the Linux desktop go mainstream.

Hopefully the future will prove me wrong, though.

If you mean replacing/combining .deb and .rpm, I doubt that will ever happen. Fortunately that doesn't really matter to common users, because most programs you'll use are packaged by the distro, and provided via their installation tools -- yum, apt, portage, pacman, etc. -- which removes the uggliness of deb, rpm, and dependancies from sight.

If you want a cross-distro system, check out klick: http://klik.atekon.de/

Come Klick2, it should be a sleek 1-app:1-file system which works on most distros.

Unlike most other Linux distributions, Linspire was conceived primarily as a business enterprise. Consider this a buyout, albeit one that harms affirms FUD affecting all other distributions. Also consider how the beating that Linspire has taken from MS in the past may affect their willingness to stand strong in the face of MS threats now - however vacuous.

While I won't miss Linspire I am interested to know the future of Robertson's only real valued contribution to the GNU/Linux family of operating systems - CNR. Perhaps Shuttleworth should click-and-run with it while he still can (though Klikit looks like a pretty good fallback).

So you are running a release that is made for one purpose: To not change and then complain that it doesn't change? Okaydokey. The rest of us just follows the automatic Ubuntu upgrades as times go by. Sure, sometimes we have to wait for 6 months before getting the latest .x release, but personally, I really don't care.

It sounds as if you want a stable core, with application repositories closely tracking the newest available? Sounds like a decent idea for a distro. Are you sure that there isn't just such a distrobution?

I don't know about autopackage, but klik seems to offer what you want. I'm sure the klik team will appreciate your contributions, at least with testing. They seem to need some server reasources, too, the search seems very slow.

Personally, I prefer to be able to have new, fairly tested software without having to bother with the actual upgrades. But I am sure you actually enjoy hunting down the 10-50 apps you use and upgrade them as needed every now and then ;p

But hopefully there's, well... Hope!

First I emphasis that I'm a Linux fan, since last century (started with Slackware in 199?, you youngster!)... But I'll still explain why I find the two main Linux package management systems completely, utterly, broken: you must be root to install a .rpm or a .deb.

Think about it for a minute. This is completely broken. Sure, in some case it makes sense, for example when an Unix admin knowing what's he's doing is installing packages that several users will need. But for a personal desktop and/or workstation it is simply broken: why do I need to be root to install, say, Sun's Java JVM when it can be installed fine in a user account? Why do I need to be root to install, say, video codecs, from a site I don't trust more than that? Note that I'm not saying I'd be totally immune by installing packages from websites I don't trust: of course there could still be a nasty package exploiting a local exploit to gain root privileges... But this is way more complicated than "rooting" when you can execute your malwared .rpm or .deb on said system.

Ian Murdock wrote on his blog a two-parts article called: "Software installation on Linux: Today, it sucks". Enlightening read also highlighting, btw, other problems.

And of course some guys, after more than 10 years, start to get it... "Klik" is an interesting concept: one of the key features is that you don't need to be root to install packages containing programs that don't need to be run as root: http://klik.atekon.de/

Crazy idea uh!?

So if you want to copy some of Linux's package management feature, please don't reproduce the same errors that .rpm and .deb do: it makes no sense at all to mandate root for package to be executed by non-root user in a single-user setup. And even on real multi-user systems, the admin should have the choice to install a package system-wide or "user-wide".

As a funny sidenote Sun's JAVA JVM / JRE / JDK can be installed fine in a user account, by a non-root user, on a Unix system (using the tarballs provided by Sun) but, on Windows, it is, AFAIK, impossible to install JAVA without using the administrator password :)

Have a look at Klik.

One Word klik http://klik.atekon.de/ you have to install and set it up initially but after that it is easier than an OSX install

Forget writing How about first giving a grammar for formulae? How about just a list of available operators or functions?

This has nothing to do with the ODF file format.

Since you can't give me a complete syntax or list of valid functions just by looking at the ODF spec, how are you going to write a spreadsheet that works with anything else?

By downloading the openformula spec?

If you want to know what a formula looks like you need to download another 200+ page spec (http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php? wg_abbrev=office-formula).

Have yourself a nice big cookie

If you want to know how to draw mathematical text you have to download the 541 page MathML spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/). If you want to be able to want to be able to have drawings on your spreadsheet you need to get the 719 page SVG spec (which is 13 pages LONGER than the original ODFv1.0 spec)!

For an SC clone? Let's not ignore the reality of the situation, Mozilla tri-license and existence of XULRunner either.

Klik is more-or-less what you're asking for. I also suspect that it is one of the reasons why CNR is going multi-distro...

Quitter! http://klik.atekon.de/

There are reasons other than bloat for separating out dependencies. For instance, say a vulnerability was reported in zlib. If every application had their own implementation of zlib, then one would have to replace zlib for every application. A shared library doesn't have this problem; it can be upgraded without problems so long as it remains backward compatible. Compartmentalising functionality is common practise in the open source world.

However, there are various file distribution systems available for Linux that include dependency files with the application. Klik, for instance, wraps up applications in a self-contained compressed filesystem. However, the problem with modern Linux distributions is not so much dependencies, but a lack of a common method of installing software.

Zero-install is another similar click-and-play system: http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/ Klik is another: http://klik.atekon.de/ Each has their ups and downs.

Also you should be able to run the scripts from a file explorer, or set up a "xterm -e" shortcut or something. (can't say for certain since I use the CLI much of the time.)

Anyhow, personally as someone who likes having a fair bit of control over what's going on in their system, I'm not too fond of any of these automagic systems though. I much prefer when software installs in my regular package management system. I see their use in certain environments but if a program was available ONLY via Autopackage or whatever, I probably wouldn't use it. I don't expect I'm alone.

To the GP: this is somewhat of a problem with Linux and standards; getting people to agree on "single unified" anything is basically impossible. It is a strength at times, but it means that you can't really count on something in one person's Linux system being available on another's, be it package management tools or otherwise.

One night, a neighbor strolling by Nasrudin's house found him outside under the street lamp brushing through the dust. "Have you lost something, my friend?" he asked. Nasrudin explained that he had lost his key and asked the neighbor to help him find it. After some minutes of searching and turning up nothing, the neighbor asked him, "Are you sure you lost the key here?" "No, I did not lose it here. I lost it inside the house," Nasrudin answered. "If you lost the key in the house, Nasrudin, why are you looking for it out here?" "Well, there's more light out here, of course," Nasrudin replied.

Please, Please Please implement support for OSX style application bundles

Like, uhm, klik?

The goal of GNU was to give users freedom, not just to be popular. So we needed to use distribution terms that would prevent GNU software from being turned into proprietary software. The method we use is called "copyleft".(1)

The central idea of copyleft is that we give everyone permission to run the program, copy the program, modify the program, and distribute modified versions--but not permission to add restrictions of their own. Thus, the crucial freedoms that define "free software" are guaranteed to everyone who has a copy; they become inalienable rights.

For an effective copyleft, modified versions must also be free. This ensures that work based on ours becomes available to our community if it is published. When programmers who have jobs as programmers volunteer to improve GNU software, it is copyleft that prevents their employers from saying, "You can't share those changes, because we are going to use them to make our proprietary version of the program."

Oh, and Linux applications are harder to install because Windows applications are easy to install...

And before anyone says anything about CNR (click and run), I will point you to klik - free open and wonderful, and not tied to any distro.

Enough said.

Repository based installation is NOT the way to go. Autopackage is just a pretty frontend around the same problem. Until we can install and remove applications as easily as OSX users can, we don't stand a chance.

We can do this already: Klik

The problem is that you end up with 200 versions of the same libraries, and the resulting memory and disk space overhead.

That's why this sort of installation is generally used for easy testing of things instead of a sane installation procedure.

Linux has something similar and it's called Klik. It needs more support from the community, but it seems the community prefer things the old fashion way as they are content with building from source, yum, synaptic, apt-get, etc...

When will we get drag and drop app install for Linux?

When it's a better solution. I use a Gentoo workstation and an OS X laptop. I prefer Gentoo.

You mention dependency handling as if it's a bad thing. Why? When I try and install something on OS X that doesn't have the required dependencies, it simply fails to work and gives no user-friendly clues why. When I try and install something on Gentoo that doesn't have the required dependencies, it installs them for me.

I seem to remember having one-click install of RPMs back in the 90s with Mandrake and Redhat, where it worked identically to what Mac OS X has now when there are no dependencies. Isn't that what happens now? What happens when you click on an RPM these days?

Have you seen Klik? Seems to me that requires even less work.

Klik apps for Linux is almost similar to the OS X method. It needs more support from the Linux community. Apt-get and other methods are great, but should really be used for system installs instead of applications. Klik could really help make Linux better.

And that, right there, is the crux of the issue: Ubuntu, Fedora Core, Mandriva, SuSE, Gentoo, Debian, Slackware, ... (and hundreds more at distrowatch.com) are all seperate operating systems. I'm well aware that that is the state of things now. What I'm trying to say is, it doesn't have to be that way.

Statically linking (or the equivalent: packaging your own dynamically linked libraries and using those) is an acceptable solution, provided it's used on programs without too many dependencies, and only used on a small scale. Otherwise, the system's memory usage will increase dramatically and performance will go down. The downloadable Linux versions of Firefox and OpenOffice.org take this approach. It works for them because they reimplement almost everything (including their UIs) as internal libraries. They're both genetically related to formerly proprietary codebases, and therefore they don't represent typical Linux programs.

I've been following Autopackage for a long time. It's got a lot of potential. I hope they can work out the kinks, and get a larger body of software packaged, so I can get new software releases without worring about someone packaging it for my distribution. Another interesting project along similar lines is Klik.

Incidently, the Autopackage developers have a page that explains the problems with Linux application portability much better than I did. They also talk about why massive distro-specific package repositories aren't a good idea, in the same FAQ.

CNR for $20 / year for outdated software.

Or I can use Klik for free, which does the same thing, is constantly up to date, and is guarenteed to never interfere with my system since all the packages are installed in theor own chroot directories.

Why doesn't Ubunto adopt Klik? Is it just not as well known?

You make some valid points. Unfortunately, things like the lack of out-of-the-box MP3 support and the problems talking to XP systems are far more "can't fix" than "won't fix." There's literally nothing that free operating system developers can do about patents and moving-target closed specifications. And it's really not the fault of the people who write free software that most mainstream game developers seem to have no interest in supporting their platforms. On the otherhand, you say you tried Fedora Core. To make MP3 support, DVD playing, etc available to the package manager takes one command. Got to http://rpm.livna.org/ and see how long it takes you to find it... (and before you say Livna is obscure, it's easily found by Googling).

However, in saying that you want click-and-go install of applications without compiling, you're missing the point. This is only possible using a distribution's package management system, or distribution-specific click-and-go systems such as Klik. Why? The reason is that precompiled software is architecture- and platform-specific. A program compiled to run on x86 Slackware will never work on PPC Gentoo, and vice versa. In addition, consider that software seems to be written nowadays to run on either Windows, or anything except Windows. It will never be possible for developers to provide binaries for every possible combination of kernel+libraries, so they spend vast amounts of time writing e.g. autoconf scripts so that (hopefully) all you have to do is type "configure && make install" -- a process I don't consider to be too difficult to understand.[1][2]

I would take issue with your statement that working with Linux is like "[Figuring] out how the damn carborator (sic) works when I mainly want to drive." If you want to fiddle with the innards of Windows, you have to drill down into obscure, poorly documented configuration dialogs, and brave the mess that is the registry (why the hell should I have to enter binary data into an undocumented registry key in order to do something as simple as swap my Ctrl and Caps Lock keys?) If you want to fiddle with the innards of Linux, most things are configurable from reasonably-named plain-text configuration file somewhere on your system. Having said that, the last time I had to do fire up an editor and hack a config file was when I was trying to do something decidedly non-standard... several months ago.

I'd say that moving to Linux from Windows is like moving from driving a family car to driving an aircraft; although the controls are very different, once you've mastered them you get where you're going much more quickly and comfortably.

[1] Yes, I realize that bytecode-compiled languages and interpreted languages allow one binary to run on many systems. But they're mostly relatively slow.

[2] I agree that when "./configure" fails, it's often quite difficult to work out what's gone wrong. Many developers aren't good at writing meaningful error messages for the self-configuration stage, unfortunately.

You could try the klik for 1.5. beta1 -- http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/KOffice-1.5.0 _DistroTable. Simple, one-click install, no messing up of your system...

"Plenty of Linux users will tell you Linux needs a standardized installation utility"

Like Klik? http://klik.atekon.de/

If a novice was forced to install both, I'd bet $100 that they'd get Linux installed properly first. A Linux install comes with most necessary drivers/software that you'll need. A novice Windows user would _never_ find the drivers needed for even an OEM system, like a Sony or HP, where all the drivers are centralized on one site, let alone searching out the drivers from each manufacturer. Linux installs are much easier than XP installs.

You've got to be kidding me. The drivers at most vendor sites default to Windows XP drivers. Throw in your average hardware vendor's CD and it will run in Windows. This is not so for Linux. I don't know what distro you are using, but I have never installed a distro where all my hardware worked as expected without editing a bunch of text files and reading a couple of README files.

The only place that XP is at all easier is finding software for it. Linux software is easier to install (RPM are very convienient, klik:// is even easier, and the GUI package managers are drop dead easy, especially Mandriva's URPMI GUI and SuSE's YaST GUI), and easier to remove.

Yes, RPMs are very easy to use. Unfortunately, the problem comes in making sure you have every single library that the app you're installing uses. There are better installers out there, but every single one I have used has had dependency issues with one piece of software or another.

Linux systems require no habitual maintenance. You don't have to worry about anti-virus or anti-spyware, and even if you did worry about it, you could simply install the anti-virus software that comes with your distribution, using the distributions own package manager. Don't believe me? SuSE's YaST has "ClamAV", as well as several other anti-virus packages included.

Apparently, you don't ever update your Linux systems with the various security and stability patches.

If you can show me Windows software that installs as easily as this: http://amavis-ng.klik.atekon.de/ , I'll be mighty impressed.

Hmmm... First you have to install something that handles klik://, not a default in the last distro I ran...

How about doing a review from the perspective of someone who has never used a computer before - then lets see which one is easier to use (hint: the answer will be Windows XP by a massive margin).

Does this include the install process, or are you comparing pre-installed XP versus DIY Linux?

If a novice was forced to install both, I'd bet $100 that they'd get Linux installed properly first. A Linux install comes with most necessary drivers/software that you'll need. A novice Windows user would _never_ find the drivers needed for even an OEM system, like a Sony or HP, where all the drivers are centralized on one site, let alone searching out the drivers from each manufacturer. Linux installs are much easier than XP installs.

Usage? Are you talking about Gentoo versus XP? I'd suggest pre-installed SuSE versus pre-installed XP.

SuSE? Comes with manuals, both electronic and dead tree.
SuSE? Comes with all productivie software, documented in the manuals! Need to write a text document? Look up "word processing" in the SuSE manual. It'll tell you what app to use, show screenshots of the app, and give you a basic rundown of its usage, with pointers to a section in the electronic help system that will give you indepth support and tutorials, as well as e-mail/phone support.

What will XP do if you look up "Word Processing" in that 15 page piece of shit 'starter guide' it comes with?

The only place that XP is at all easier is finding software for it. Linux software is easier to install (RPM are very convienient, klik:// is even easier, and the GUI package managers are drop dead easy, especially Mandriva's URPMI GUI and SuSE's YaST GUI), and easier to remove. Linux systems require no habitual maintenance. You don't have to worry about anti-virus or anti-spyware, and even if you did worry about it, you could simply install the anti-virus software that comes with your distribution, using the distributions own package manager. Don't believe me? SuSE's YaST has "ClamAV", as well as several other anti-virus packages included.

If you can show me Windows software that installs as easily as this: http://amavis-ng.klik.atekon.de/ , I'll be mighty impressed. And commercial vendors are picking it up, too. For example, klik://nero will install the latest version of Nero Burning Rom on your Linux system, and run it. From one file. One click install->run. No setting, no fuss, no random files draped all over your system.

The only place linux still really lags behind is game avaliablility. Between alsa, SDL, and OpenGL, there's a pretty comprehensive gaming environment on linux, but its taking manufacturers some time to get caught up. iD and Epic are doing pretty well, and Transgaming's doing some neat things with DirectX9 Wine, but gaming on Linux just isn't all that there yet, even though I do manage to keep myself enterained.

It disappoints me that I can't play whatever games I want, but I keep myself busy with Secondlife, EVE Online, World of Warcraft, Doom 3, the Unreal series, Civilization IV, and various other distractions.

Mark Shuttleworth and now Linus Torvalds seem realize the value of KDE's superior architecture, on which which many must-have KDE apps. These apps don't have any gnome equivalents that are nearly as useful and feature-rich:

AmaroK music player -- The most feature-rich and polished music player on the Free Software platform.

K3b -- Best CD and DVD authoring program with intuitive wizards, on the fly transcoding between WAV, MP3, FLAC, and Ogg Vorbis, normalization of volume levels, CDDB, DVD Ripping and DivX/XviD encoding, Save/load projects, automatic hardware detection/calibration and much more.

DigiKam -- The most feature-rich application for digital photo management.

Wireless Assistant -- Most user-friendly app for connecting to wireless networks. Managed Networks Support, WEP Encryption Support, Per Network (AP) Configuration Profiles, Automatic (DHCP, both dhcpcd and dhclient) and manual configuration options, Connection status monitoring, etc

KDE Education -- Educational (Science, Literature, Geography, etc) programs for children. Could play a big role in whether school districts decide to use Free Software in their classrooms.

Konqueror File Manager -- Embeded image/PDF/music/video viewing (via KMPlayer [kde.org]) and a tree-view arrangement of the filesystem familiar to Windows users (Nautilus doesn't come anywhere close)

KDE Control Center -- Centralized location for desktop control. Controls _all_ common aspects of the KDE applications: language, power settings, special effects, icon and window themes, shadows, shortcuts, printers, privacy, etc. This is what makes KDE so well integrated -- all KDE apps respect changes made here, so they all have the same feel. SUSE has even made YAST a module of the KDE control center so users can access distro-specific settings from here. Compare this to the dismembered approach Red Hat (and other gnome distros) have been forced to adopt in the absence of a centralized gnome control center. (ie. a bunch of individial programs named redhat-config-**** that nobody can ever remember)

Seamless, transparent network file access on SMB, FTP, SSH and WebDav networks from _any_ KDE application.

Kaffeine -- The most polished FOSS movie player.

MythTV -- The most advanced analog and digital TV viewer/recorder in the Free Software world (built using QT).

Baghira -- A native QT style that faithfully imitates OS X eyecandy, aimed at new users coming from the Mac world.

Klik -- Gives non-expert access to bleeding edge versions of apps without requiring any compilation or permanent installation.

KDE and QT also make up a technically superior platform for developers, drastically lowering the learning curve for programmers new to FOSS development. KDE apps can be built from the ground up using the best development tools in the Free Software world (which also happen to be built on QT/KDE):

Kdevelop for syntax highliting, application templates, and project organization.

QT designer for GUI development

Quanta -- Rich web development environment for PHP, CSS, DocBook, HTML, XML, etc with advanced context sensitive autocompletion, internal preview and more.

You might want to take a look at klik:

http://klik.atekon.de/

Good news all round, it would seem. :)

Indeed, here are some must-have KDE apps that are certainly going to help SuSE's popularity as a desktop operating system :
AmaroK music player -- Intuitive, powerful, good-looking music player. Supports transfers to/from iPods and many audio formats.

K3b -- Best CD and DVD authoring program with intuitive wizards, on the fly transcoding between WAV, MP3, FLAC, and Ogg Vorbis, normalization of volume levels, CDDB, DVD Ripping and DivX/XviD encoding, Save/load projects, automatic hardware detection/calibration and much more.

DigiKam -- The most feature-rich application for digital photo management.

Wireless Assistant -- Most user-friendly app for connecting to wireless networks. Managed Networks Support, WEP Encryption Support, Per Network (AP) Configuration Profiles, Automatic (DHCP, both dhcpcd and dhclient) and manual configuration options, Connection status monitoring, etc

KDE Education -- Educational (Science, Literature, Geography, etc) programs for children. Could play a big role in whether school districts decide to use Free Software in their classrooms.

Konqueror File Manager -- Embeded image/PDF/music/video viewing (via KMPlayer [kde.org]) and a tree-view arrangement of the filesystem familiar to Windows users (Nautilus doesn't come anywhere close)

KDE Control Center -- Centralized location for desktop control. Controls _all_ common aspects of the KDE applications: language, power settings, special effects, icon and window themes, shadows, shortcuts, printers, privacy, etc. This is what makes KDE so well integrated -- all KDE apps respect changes made here, so they all have the same feel. SUSE has even made YAST a module of the KDE control center so users can access distro-specific settings from here. Compare this to the dismembered approach Red Hat (and other gnome distros) have been forced to adopt in the absence of a centralized gnome control center. (ie. a bunch of individial programs named redhat-config-**** that nobody can ever remember)

Seamless, transparent network file access on SMB, FTP, SSH and WebDav networks from _any_ KDE application.

Kaffeine -- The most polished FOSS movie player.

MythTV -- The most advanced analog and digital TV viewer/recorder in the Free Software world (built using QT).

Baghira -- A native QT style that faithfully imitates OS X eyecandy, aimed at new users coming from the Mac world.

Klik -- Gives non-expert access to bleeding edge versions of apps without requiring any compilation or permanent installation.

KDE and QT also make up a technically superior platform for developers, drastically lowering the learning curve for programmers new to FOSS development. KDE apps can be built from the ground up using the best development tools in the Free Software world (which also happen to be built on QT/KDE):

Kdevelop for syntax highliting, application templates, and project organization.

QT designer for GUI development

Quanta -- Rich web development environment for PHP, CSS, DocBook, HTML, XML, etc with advanced context sensitive autocompletion, internal preview and more.

BKSys environment for a complete replacement of the autotool chain (libtool

Perhaps you'd be interested in klik then, which pretty much solves all the problems you just mentioned..

Maybe you can email your favorite game companies and try to get them to support it.

The real issue is who is going to pay for the next generation of KDE development if SuSE isn't going to pay.

Mandrake, Kubuntu/Mark Shuttleworth, Trolltech seem realize the value of KDE's superior architecture, on which many must-have KDE apps have been built. These apps don't have any gnome equivalents that are nearly as useful and feature-rich:

AmaroK music player -- Steve Jobs' nightmare, the single greatest threat to Itunes on the Free Software platform.

K3b -- Best CD and DVD authoring program with intuitive wizards, on the fly transcoding between WAV, MP3, FLAC, and Ogg Vorbis, normalization of volume levels, CDDB, DVD Ripping and DivX/XviD encoding, Save/load projects, automatic hardware detection/calibration and much more.

DigiKam -- The most feature-rich application for digital photo management.

Wireless Assistant -- Most user-friendly app for connecting to wireless networks. Managed Networks Support, WEP Encryption Support, Per Network (AP) Configuration Profiles, Automatic (DHCP, both dhcpcd and dhclient) and manual configuration options, Connection status monitoring, etc

KDE Education -- Educational (Science, Literature, Geography, etc) programs for children. Could play a big role in whether school districts decide to use Free Software in their classrooms.

Konqueror File Manager -- Embeded image/PDF/music/video viewing (via KMPlayer) and a tree-view arrangement of the filesystem familiar to Windows users (Nautilus doesn't come anywhere close)

KDE Control Center -- Centralized location for desktop control. Controls _all_ common aspects of the KDE applications: language, power settings, special effects, icon and window themes, shadows, shortcuts, printers, privacy, etc. This is what makes KDE so well integrated -- all KDE apps respect changes made here, so they all have the same feel. SUSE has even made YAST a module of the KDE control center so users can access distro-specific settings from here. Compare this to the dismembered approach Red Hat (and other gnome distros) have been forced to adopt in the absence of a centralized gnome control center. (ie. a bunch of individial programs named redhat-config-**** that nobody can ever remember)

Seamless, transparent network file access on SMB, FTP, SSH and WebDav networks from _any_ KDE application.

Kaffeine -- The most polished FOSS movie player.

MythTV -- The most advanced analog and digital TV viewer/recorder in the Free Software world (built using QT).

Baghira -- A native QT style that faithfully imitates OS X eyecandy, aimed at new users coming from the Mac world.

Klik -- Gives non-expert access to bleeding edge versions of apps without requiring any compilation or permanent installation.

KDE and QT also make up a technically superior platform for developers, drastically lowering the learning curve for programmers new to FOSS development. KDE apps can be built from the ground up using the best development tools in the Free Software world (which also happen to be built on QT/KDE):

Kdevelop for syntax highlighting, application templates, and project organization.

QT designer for GUI development

Quanta -- Rich web development environment for PHP, CSS, DocBook, HTML, XML, etc with advanced con

Some more must-have KDE/QT desktop applications:

K3b -- Best CD and DVD authoring program with intuitive wizards, on the fly transcoding between WAV, MP3, FLAC, and Ogg Vorbis, normalization of volume levels, CDDB, DVD Ripping and DivX/XviD encoding, Save/load projects, automatic hardware detection/calibration and much more.

Klik -- Gives non-expert access to bleeding edge versions of apps without requiring any compilation or permanent installation.

KDE Control Center -- Centralized location for desktop control. Controls _all_ common aspects of the KDE applications: language, power settings, special effects, icon and window themes, shadows, shortcuts, printers, privacy, etc. This is what makes KDE so well integrated -- all KDE apps respect changes made here, so they all have the same feel. SUSE has even made YAST a module of the KDE control center so users can access distro-specific settings from here. Compare this to the dismembered approach Red Hat (and other gnome distros) have been forced to adopt in the absence of a centralized gnome control center. (ie. a bunch of individial programs named redhat-config-**** that nobody can ever remember)

Wireless Assistant -- Most user-friendly app for connecting to wireless networks. Managed Networks Support, WEP Encryption Support, Per Network (AP) Configuration Profiles, Automatic (DHCP, both dhcpcd and dhclient) and manual configuration options, Connection status monitoring, etc

MythTV -- The most advanced analog and digital TV viewer/recorder in the Free Software world (built using QT).

KDE Education -- Educational (Science, Literature, Geography, etc) programs for children. Could play a big role in whether school districts decide to use Free Software in their classrooms.

Quanta -- Rich web development environment for PHP, CSS, DocBook, HTML, XML, etc with advanced context sensitive autocompletion, internal preview and more.

Cervisia -- User-friendly GUI frontend for CVS.

Gary Silverman recently discovered klik: "1 yr. ago I taught my 71 aged Grandma how to use Kanotix + email/KMail + webbrowsing/Konqueror. She really enjoyed it. 3 months ago she phoned my and complained: Why hadn't I told her about that easy one-click installation method of new software?! I didnt get what she wanted to explain to me. She got angry and hang up, when I told her this was impossible... Last month we went to visit her. She showed me how to do it. You can imagine that my jaws dropped 10+ inches. I must have displayed the most stupid face I ever made in my life."
Source: http://dot.kde.org/1126867980/

So if you would like to see yourself: http://klik.atekon.de/

Well, this new kernel is great news for the http://klik.atekon.de/ service which allows you to directly run the latest experimental linux applications or stable debian packages in a user account by just clicking a link to run and install without messing up your installation (just like selfcontained Apple appliction folders).

The mounting of file systems without root permisson means klik will become even easier to install on linux distributions. And it already runs on several distributions without configuaration.

On a 'precious Mac' most programs just get dragged fron the source CD disk or disk image to wherever the user likes to have the program and then the program runs. That simplicity has not yet dawned on Linux programmers.

So, you haven't heard of Klik yet, then? It does exactly that - whole application in a single file; run it from whereever (zero installation?), uninstall by deleting the file. This one file can then be used on multiple distributions, and has no dependencies!

-- Steve

The community is testing and developing ways to solve that *AND* improve it over windows way of installing/using applications.

One of them is Klik, the no-install application in a file.
http://klik.atekon.de/

With time, FS/OSS will totally dominate desktop world with better solutions than MS's, Apple's or anyone's.

firstly Klik does pretty much what your asking.... http://klik.atekon.de/?from=profile Its quite hackish at the moment - But is under heavy development and works well - for me at least. Its probably a little easier than the Mac approach even. You click once answer one question in one dialog box - the program is downloaded to your desktop as a compressed filesystem image and run. A menu item is put in your menu.

Secondly the database approach is actually quite a good one. On my debian based desktop I relie quite heavily on third party apt repositories. These can be added very easily once you know how. It has the added advantage of letting you know when new versions of that software are available and gives you a universal interface for uninstalling the software. What I think is missing (on the systems I have tried at least) is an easy to use front end. I use Synaptic and while it is good for somebody who knows what they are doing its not something I would throw in front of a new user. I Think such an interface should look something like http://www.kde-apps.org/ and allow for easy adding of third party repositiories.

You mean like this?

You could try klik if all the systems have KDE installed, it's a MAC-like system for application distribution/installation:

http://dot.kde.org/1126867980/
http://klik.atekon.de/

It works fine in Gentoo too.

can be just what you need.