Slashdot Mirror
Quebec Govt Sued For Ignoring Free Software
Mathieu Lutfy writes "The CBC is reporting that 'Quebec's open-source software association is suing the provincial government, saying it is giving preferential treatment to Microsoft Corp. by buying the company's products rather than using free alternatives. ... Government buyers are using an exception in provincial law that allows them to buy directly from a proprietary vendor when there are no options available, but Facil said that loophole is being abused and goes against other legal requirements to buy locally.' The group also has a press release in English."
Ok, I'm not Canadian, but this applies to everyone when their local government is pissing away money for no good reason.
It's one thing for a business to choose the more expensive option, the people making the choices must eventually answer to their stockholders. Well, as a voter, I'm a stockholder in my country. Wasting truckloads of money for no good reason means I'm going to vote your ass off the board of directors.
Most of the time, alternatives such as Openoffice.org are more than adequate for the job (and usually a better choice). Sometimes there are special needs which will allow for an exception, e.g. a large investment in Excel macros that are essential and very expensive to convert.
Local schools seem to be the worse offenders. They constantly bitch and moan about lack of funds, then piss away a pile of cash on a site license for Microsoft Office so they can teach their word processing course. Openoffice.org (and a few others) are perfect for the job. They are free and the cover everything necessary to learn word processing - which should be covering typing skills and how to lay out a well designed document - not how to use a specific product.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Plus d'info en francais et sur le site de l'association FACIL, pour l'appropriation collective de l'informatique libre.
Each license bought allows for tech support from Microsoft. Is there any such tech support from open source developers? Usually not.
When you have tax dollars freely available, cutting costs matter little when expedience for bureaucrats is much more important.
What the hell is the big deal? Why can't you be satisfied with the whole country learning both French and English, such that all of your children are bilingual (and thus have a leg up on monolingual countries like the US)? No one is out to "attack you." No one is out to deny you the right to speak French. Why the hell do you fucking Quebecois have to be such a bunch of fucking whiners? OHHHH, POOR US, WE ARE "FORCED" TO BE PART OF A COUNTRY WITH ONE OF THE HIGHEST STANDARDS OF LIVING IN THE WESTERN WORLD, OOH LA LA, EH?
Jackasses.
Don't you have to be somehow affected by defendant's actions to sue them? Is the Quebec's open-source software association harmed by this directly? Or do they have a plan to sell tech support contracts once the free software is installed?
"There is no real right or wrong, just what the majority accepts at the time."
As an expat canadian I wasn't aware of any such law but I was from Ontario perhaps they have a different law in Quebec. Anyways, fair competition only seems to make sense to me. Seems rather odd for a open source software organization to fight this fight though. Unless they represent for profit service companies I don't think they'll be able to prove any loss in court so the case could get thrown out on that grounds. They probably would have been better off getting a bunch of citizens to do a class action as they are ones that have a calculatable loss.
That said even if they loss the case, if it seems plausible to the court it might put the fear of God into the government (in the incarnation of a penguin no doubt) to at least consider open source and be prepared to justify their choosing MS anyways if that is what they do.
P.S. Just a general question why does /. put a space between the second and third paragraph for me not the first and second? I'm using the same flags everywhere else, double "bracketted p". Used to work fine before the new interface came out.
Would any Canadians out there rate how easy it is to conduct litigation in Canada? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being common sense, and 10 being frivolous.
Most Slashdotters are familiar with the difficulties associated with Linux, but cannot judge the decision of FACIL representatives without being able to make a comparison against the difficulties associated with bringing a lawsuit.
If they went to FOSS, they could take the 25 million they spent on M$ licenses (in 08 alone!) and pay local Quebecois to provide support. In fact, that's their whole grounds for bringing the case to court.
From TFA: "Quebec's public administration refuses to even consider and evaluate these options...the regulation implies that public markets have to enhance the local economic development as well as the Quebec technologies....From February to June 2008...sales of proprietary software for more than 25 million dollars"
Sounds like good case to me. My parents actually worked in the kind of local government that would be using this software, and I'm here to tell you, the transition would go fine. The fact is, most of them barely bumble their way through no matter WHAT software they use (on their outdated machines). All they use is a word processor, email, and maybe a spreadsheet and simple database. Just the basics.
This from TFA actually kinda scared me...scared because I'm worried about how far the US is falling behind other countries when it comes to tech: "In the Netherlands, the public administration, one of the most modern in the world, has decided to forbid the use of proprietary software in the public sector."
Thank you Dave Raggett
If you don't want to lose any formatting, export the PDF and send that to the library printer.
Kids!
Put identity in the browser.
It's his new laws that took horses from the mounties, wine from the Frenchies, and sodomy from Newfoundland. Apparently that wasn't enough, he's taking open source too.
Oh well.
There's no Canada like French Canada
It's the best Canada in the land.
And the other Canada - is a bullsh*t Canada!
If you lived here for a day, you'd understand!
(for those who don't get it, click)
'a';DROP TABLE users; SELECT * FROM DATA WHERE name LIKE '%'... if you're reading this, it didn't work.
Don't the French Canadians learn English anyway?
+++ATH0
There's also a press release in french, which was translated for you guys. Aren't we nice? I'm sure you can discover it for yourself as I don't want to impose any more french on you. I though someone might appreciate having the info in their first language.
slashdot troll as an occupation, must be fun :P
Why can't Slashdot get encoding right? I know that for Americans, 26 should be enough for everyone, but for christsake, this is 2008!!
Let's do some testing here:
à -This is a large Scandinavian O with slash
Ã- -This is a Captial O umlaut
ã -A spanish a-tilde
à -A french e-circonflex
On my PC, the same one I wrote it on, they all render like A-tilde. Come on coders!!!
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Example? I can't count the number of times I had to eventually save my OpenOffice file as a Microsoft Word Document and opened it in Word only to find that I had to do a whole bunch of reformatting before sending it to the library printer!
On the other hand, I can't count the number of times I have saved my Microsoft Word file in Microsoft Word format and open it in Microsoft Word only to find that I had to do a whole bunch of reformatting before sending it to the printer (changing of the restarting of numbered lists is one particular thing that isn't always persistent through a save-and-load cycle, and with Office 2007 paragraph indentation isn't always persistent either).
I have to use MS Office for work, but I keep a copy of OO.o on my computer because it's far better than MS Office's recovery mode at recovering corrupted MS Office files. Sure, I usually have to sort out some formatting in that case too, but I'd sooner reformat a 20,000 word report than scour through trying to remember all the critical changes since the last backup.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
I have also seen ssh clients that allow you to run the same command simultaneously on a LIST of ssh servers. All you need is a good 4096bit SSL cert and "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade -y" and all is well.
So, after all you *can* be sued for choosing microsoft :-)
I use Ubuntu on my laptop at College (BCIT) and whenever I have to print something, I just use OpenOffice Portable which I have on a USB key.
For those that don't want to use up 80MB on their USB key, there is also AbiWord Portable at 6MB for text documents.
PortableApps are invaluable if you need to use programs temporarily on windows machines.
Governments don't like Open Source software because it doesn't allow to easily hide eavesdropping trojans. That won't likely be the case with canadians, but a good set of western governments are constantly spying on ther citizen, and publicly available source code would make it more difficult, or nearly impossible with tech savy users.
No, there's no anti malware, personal firewall, even an external Linux box configured as such, that will catch a Windows trojan reading data from your disks then phoning home on an encrypted channel disguised as system information data upload to get better matching updates or the like.
Open Source is the only way to clean and trustworthy code, and a community of many eyes checking that Source is the only way to keep it that way.
Outa be a law on the books but if draft dodgers and terrorists can hide over there, there's not a snowballs chance in Canada.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This is certainly true in the USA and in countries with a high level of corruption. It is not so true in certain European countries, especially the Scandinavian countries.
Oui, mais surtout il n'y a rien qui excite plus une bande d'anglos que de voir un petit peu de francais le matin... Ils sont tellement tolerants et ouverts d'esprit...
You're using a word processor for 20,000 word reports? I really suggest you learn LaTeX - there's a steep learning curve at the start, but the long-term time savings are incredible.
I wrote the interim documents for my final year undergraduate project in StarOffice, and eventually bit the bullet and learned the basics of LaTeX for my final report. Even though the final report was around four times as long, I spent a lot less time worrying about presentation issues than I had on either interim document. For my PhD thesis I used LaTeX from the start, but with a proper build system (recursive makefiles, generating graphs with GNUplot, exporting PDFs of images with little scripts, and storing each chapter in a separate file). For my book I used a slightly modified version of this same build system, with a little OmniOutline script that created the skeleton from an outline.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
"One such policy that I'm aware of is that a vendor must be "the exclusive vendor" for a piece of software."
the only way this will get dinged by buying GPL'd software is if a closed company didn't want to be taken out of the bidding.
It goes to court, the judge *judges* the intent of the law and finds there is no issue *in this case*.
It's why we have judges rather than a computer program that just interprets legal/not legal.
Simply put - Microsoft is the new IBM; you won't get fired for choosing Microsoft, even if it doesn't play out so well.
Whenever I put myself on the line for a Linux box (server, desktop or otherwise), I always know it's going to have out-perform (in whatever metric is important to the person considering it) the competing Microsoft option by a factor of two to be considered equal.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
There are two reasons why they get discounts.
1) The software developers profit by having hoards of students familiar with their software. This of course is going to make it much more likely the student is going to purchase the software on their home computers at some point.
2) (This one applies mostly to College level) The industry benefits from students who are trained on their software before they enter the workforce. When the software developers don't provide the discount, businesses often do. For my course, we had a lab full of a particular CAD program (the newest version with all the bells and whistles) that runs at around $13,000 a copy. The collge got it for free.
Living in a Windows free home since 2003!
Really? I keep being told this, so I've been trying to move to Windows, but being hobbled every time I click the wheel button sends me back to a usable gui.
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
clusterSSH, FTW!
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
I work in a government office (I bet you didn't see that one coming!) and I'm always suggesting (F)OSS alternatives to the expensive proprietary commercial crap everyone loves. The problem is that the other guys in my IT department, and in some cases any higher-ups who end up having a say in it, are terrified of it because (in their opinion):
- When something goes wrong, it's time to play the blame game, and if they can't call up a large corporation and bitch they don't feel that their ass is covered. This is always the #1 reason I get for not using (F)OSS. It seems that the "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" mentality still lingers.
- The idea of having to edit config files if things go wrong is discomforting. The idea of having to work with some code is terrifying. They're Plug Play & Forget kind of people, but they can't get past the AAHH SCARY CONFIG FILES AND COMMAND LINES stage to see the Plug Play & Forget nirvana they've been missing out on. Mind you, in my experience, the chances of something going wrong with (F)OSS tends to be equal or lower than with commercial software, but everyone feels safer in a nice walled garden where everything is designed to play nice *rolls eyes.* I cannot stress enough how much the other IT guys are deathly afraid of code (including text config files), even an ex-programmer! The very thought of having to possibly touch code makes them look at each other in sheer dread. They think I have the worst IT dept. job as a full-time codemonkey, but it's the best IMO.
- Making employees re-learn how to use software is considered unacceptable (Since everyone's been trained to use MS software from birth), even though some of these apps have GUIs that are hard to tell from their commercial equivalents. Well Vista's going to be forced on us eventually so the joke's on them!
And most annoying of all...
- Governments usually have deals with MS (I don't currently understand the business mumbo-jumbo going on there), so the software's already paid for and is basically free to government offices. This takes away the cost incentive of switching to Free / inexpensive OSS. Plus new PCs usually come with Windows and you don't have an option to get a cheaper PC with no software. Cost incentive lost again.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
You're using a word processor for 20,000 word reports? I really suggest you learn LaTeX - there's a steep learning curve at the start, but the long-term time savings are incredible.
Did you see the bit about it being for work? The format is dictated to me, and laTeX to MS Word conversion just isn't up to the task yet. I do use laTeX for major college reports.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
It's a provincial law, so it's not a Canadian issues. But a Quebec issues. Thing Province = State.
And yes, that law would forced the Quebec government to adopt open source. In that regard, if it works, all Quebec public school system would use OpenSource products instead of Microsoft crappy shit.
And in our Province, the public school system covers almost 90% of the students. Each public school get paid by the government. So, it's the provincial government that are responsible for the expenses of those school. When the government project to expenses something, they get clear rules how to expanse it. They need to open their intentions of spending publicly, take all the persons who want to give them services, and choose the best for your bucks (quality/cost) for their expenses. (well OpenSource are the winner out there)
That initiative is really big. Because legally the government is bound to follow the rules on new project expanses.
Our socialist system work a lot of computers, in our schools, in our hospitals, in our numerous library, and so on...
That could mean that OpenSource experiences could be really more in demands in the only Democrat-Socialist state of America.
Jourdespoir
By apt-get I'm assuming this is debian/ubuntu, but anyhow.
If you're doing updates this way, you probably want to have a local package repository. That way you're only downloading from the 'net once, rather than having several hundred machines contacting somearchive.debian.org for the same update.
Of course, along those lines, where I used to work (mid-sized school district) all clients booted through PXE, and didn't have drives at all. System updates were done to a shared changeroot and worked rather nicely.
How can it be if there is other software/operating systems/databases to use OR IGNORE out there??????
Oh, I see. They really ARENT a monopoly, its just that people might prefer Microsoft to the other crap that is available.
So we call it a monopoly and in effect, we cut down microsoft in order to raise up the other software out there. Just like we do with people: we cut down men to raise up women and we cut down whites to raise up the minorities.
Yea, that makes perfect sense. :-/
Just going with Open Source Software because it is free may not be the most affordable solution.
First there is an issue of more training (yes they get trained on every new version of software anyways) but most people out of highschool are trained with Office and Windows experience, and these training classes can focus on what is new and different. Vs starting for the scratch and understanding a new methodology of using computers, then having a lot less of the training stick causing more asking for help and less working. Say each copy of Windows with Office License costs about $500 (for bulk sales and government discount) Say an office has 600 people so that $300,000 plus 4 hours of training with an average Unioned Government salary of $20 per hour. So that is makes it at $348,000. Now Open Source would make a great deal if everyone knew how to use it intuitively, but that isn't the case yet. So except for 4 hours of training it will take a week 40 hours of training so $480,000 just on basic labor costs loss in training. Oh you say Open source is not that hard. Sure for us Geeks it isn't that bad, however I have seen non geeks stumble on the simplest things... Remembering Firefox is the web browser except for Internet Explorer. If you are sharing with someone outside your company you will need to save those files as docs or pdf (God help you if they get a doc file that doesn't load correctly (even just formatted slightly off) ). Finding where you saved that file. etc... It may not be a 40 hour week straight but overall it will add up to that on the average.
As well everytime new employees come in they will need extra training.
Then there is the cost of getting legacy apps moved. All those Access files and VB programs. Even many of the Web Apps may have only been tested to work in IE and never on a standards complaint browser.
Then there is the IT Training costs these guys knew how to administer a Microsoft network having them administer a Unix/Linux Network will be disastrous! Servers crashing huge downtimes, Just like if a Unix/Linux administrator admins a Windows network. They use the wrong methodologies for the network avoiding each particular systems strengths and exploiting their weaknesses.
After all this is said and done and all those problems then the guys who approved this are asked by the higher ups why didn't just go with Microsoft then they will have explaining to do.
That said you can have a substantial savings using Open Source software however you need the correct culture for it. Governments do not have the culture for Open Source. It requires them to work smart, learn to be flexible and change, two things Government employees (in the broad sense of the term, yes they are good hard working, smart flexible government workers but they are in the minority) are not good at.
There is also the area of support too. I am not saying I buy windows I go to Microsoft for support but I can go a local firm for help. Finding a Linux qualified firm for support is harder and often more expensive then finding a Windows support firm.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I know this is mostly off topic because the article is about free software, buy if you want to see local schools wasting money, you should come to my town. While still complaining about lack of funds for education, one of the PUBLIC high schools here not only has enough money for a pool, but they have a freaking WATERSLIDE! Not a, 'hey this 6 foot slide points into the pool' water slide. This is a two and a half story amusement park waterslide.
The issue is getting great coverage and will be having a television news report today, Thursday 28th of august, on the 22h news of Radio-Canada (francophone equivalent of the CBC). It will also be aired on RDI (the 24h news channel of Radio-Canada) at 21h.
From what I've been told, there will be reactions from other board members of the association, our lawyer, university professors and last but not least, the Quebec government.
If you're in the area, don't miss out the press conference on Friday the 29th of August, 10h30, 7275, Saint-Urbain, Montreal, suite 201.
Finally, the best way to support Facil is of course by spreading the news, but also to become a member or to donate to the association (sorry if the website is not well translated, we are working on it). We are getting into a lengthly legal battle which will hopefully send a clear message to other governments. This is only the start.
Thanks for all the great comments!
Mathieu
Somehow I read that as NSFW networks, and it had me wondering what kinda network we're talking about here--until I re-read it.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
I have seen this in action. It is amazing what it can do even with one pathetic P4 and a couple gig of ram.
It really gets rolling with a quad core server and 8 gig. (I can build one of these for mere hundreds of $$)
You can even have the whole class doing 3D modeling with blender. Imagine the cost of doing this with proprietary software and without thin clients?
Also, upgrading is so cheap. The cost of upgrading everyone is just the cost of the server. (and that is under a grand)
I have found that just the LABOR cost of procuring 30 new desktops, imaging, configuring and deploying them is more than the cost of a new LTSP server. YMMV
DND at least is almost entirely windows, and now transitionning to windows xp. Server side is provided by Novell, I have no idea if it's SUSE or NetWare though.
Complete waste if you ask me, because what are they running in those offices that really requires windows?
Great! And you think that doing this kind of cretinity stuff you'll be able to convince governments to use free/open source software?
You bastards!
If I were the Quebec govt. I'll say you: Fuck you 1,000 times and now we'll NEVER again think to use anything open source.
God... what a bunch of idiots these fsf and os zealots!
...take your battle to the legal playing fields.
It's a reasonable approach...if your product is not being selected on purely political, unethical, or illegal reasons.
But, govts like businesses pick software for more than just technically functional reasons. They pick whatever will most effectively allow people, inside the organization and out, to work together.
Try sending someone, anyone an OpenOffice document and see what happens. You'll get either a response of 1) "what the hell is a ODT file?" or 2) "I know what this is but I don't have time to deal with it..resend as a DOC".
If OpenOffice would allow users to set Office document types as the default file format, users can deal with incompatibilities, and can put up with a crappy database product...it might work (it might support the default doc type already...I used OO for a while but don't remember if it supported this).
If Microsoft hadn't won this effort, we'd all be talking about Lotus-Everywhere or OfficePerfect or something similar.
Comment removed based on user account deletion