UK Schools Warned Off Microsoft Deal

rs232 sends in a BBC piece on the UK computer agency Becta advising schools against signing up for a Microsoft educational license because of alleged anti-competitive practices. "The problem was that Microsoft required schools to have licenses for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else." We have discussed Becta's role in British education here several times as they have acted as a watchdog warning of perceived Microsoft excesses.

Comments

Sighing up

[Mikelikus]

For a minute there, I thought they were making some sort of metaphorical statement.

Re:Sighing up

[pete-classic]

I think they are subtly stating that MS spell check damages students' ability to spell.

-Peter

Re:Sighing up

[SnoopJeDi]

Probably a reference to the collective sigh of all /. readers after simultaneously wondering if the editors are illiterate, or if they simply don't read what they post.

Re:Sighing up

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you misspelled metaphysical.

Re:Sighing up

[phillips321]

I don't often comment, the beers I've drank tonight give me the confidence to say FU Microsoft. I've always dreamt of the day that schools widely adopt *nix as the primary OS, I didn't think I would be fortunate to see it in my lifetime but the way MS is acting gives me more and more security that before the day i die i might actually see *nix as a standard in British schools, smile to all:)

Re:Sighing up

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had to sign up for that kind of Microsoft deal, would your sighs be metaphorical?

Re:Sighing up

[Lunzo]

I was going to moderate the parent, but there's no "-1 Drunk Ramblings" option...

Re:Sighing up

[jaxtherat]

All fine and good, but TFA doesn't actually mention linux at all, it just mentions saving from using "open source software" like Star Office or Open Office...

Re:Sighing up

[value_added]

Probably a reference to the collective sigh of all /. readers after simultaneously wondering if the editors are illiterate, or if they simply don't read what they post.

Few read the articles, many don't read even the summary (see the recent "Apple Makes $831 On Each AT&T iPhone"), few make use of the preview button, and our editors don't read the submissions. I wonder what it is any of us are doing here?

        Slashdot is the graffiti on technology's bathroom wall.

Discuss.

Re:Sighing up

[nstlgc]

Also, there's no "+5 Drunk Ramblings". What kind of pub is this???

Linux

[celardore]

Just another reason why schools and public authorities should be adopting open alternatives.

Re:Linux

[Lane Rendell]

I agree as well, Linux distros provide the basic functionality that students need and its cheap for schools to use, and harder for a kid to mess with settings and such if its set up right.

Re:Linux

[p0tat03]

Sort of, kind of, not really? Schools are supposed to teach children skills that they can apply in the real world. One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac?

Kids' software needs are significantly different from that of adults, with the possible except of a good Office suite, which everybody needs. Where's the equivalent of your doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab?

While I agree MS's tactics here are pretty low, it doesn't immediately lead us to "switch to Linux", because honestly it's not a viable alternative.

On the other hand, Apple has traditionally had the support of children's software publishers. Maybe they can leverage this situation to their advantage...

Re:Linux

[bconway]

For most of the software schools use, there are no open alternatives. Not every problem is a nail, no matter how much you like your hammer...

Re:Linux

[ZERO1ZERO]

MOD PARENT +1 FUNNY!

Re:Linux

[Winckle]

For young children, tux teaches typing is good, a few years ago, I used a kde typing program, though I can't remember what it was called, but it grouped the keys into coloured groups for each finger, which was a cool visual aid.

I use Mac now, so if anyone knows any good programs for os x, post them here!

Re:Linux

[Aladrin]

How many are you supposed to need?

I know you were trolling, but I have to thank you anyhow. I hadn't thought to look for a touch typing tutor on Linux, but now I have and KTouch looks like it's pretty decent.

Re:Linux

[vux984]

Kids' software needs are significantly different from that of adults, with the possible except of a good Office suite, which everybody needs. Where's the equivalent of your doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab?

Actually the vast majority of that type of software runs pretty flawlessly under wine.
Its not generally complex software. I'm sure you could find exceptions, but for every exception that didn't work, you could probably easily find software that did. Its not like there are a shortage of 'doodling' and 'trivia' games to try.

That said, my daughter's kindergarten class has a classic iMac with OS9 on it. And I have no issues with that. Its a suitable machine for what they are doing with it.

It would be absurd for them to have to license XP Professional for it, even if it is a discounted copy.

Re:Linux

[gEvil (beta)]

I hadn't thought to look for a touch typing tutor on Linux, but now I have and KTouch looks like it's pretty decent.

What? The regular 'touch' command isn't good enough for you?

Re:Linux

[Gideon Fubar]

ok, give us some examples.. And no, saying that Word doesn't run under *nux is not acceptable.

Re:Linux

[Tranzistors]

I don't know any educational software provided by Microsoft. They provide platform (Windows) and professional tools (as in, you work with them for living). The rest of software simply use this platform. As someone here already mentioned, wine could be used.

And your nail/hammer analogy is rather pointless without examples - which software needs MS platform? MS Offcie? Visual Basic?

If, for instance, a biology class uses some über Windows depended software, then Windows should be used only on those PCs'.

Re:Linux

[Aladrin]

No, I don't ever get mod points any more.

But when I did, I never marked someone 'troll' simply because they're stupid. It takes deliberate intend to be an ass despite even the meanest logic proving them wrong.

You obviously agree with him, so answer me this: What basic apps are missing that a child would need in school? Touch typing isn't one of them, as there are plenty for Linux. Word processing, email, web, spreadsheets... I can't think of anything that would be necessary that linux didn't have years ago. So you tell me what it is instead, and I'll admit he might not have been trolling.

Re:Linux

[EvilGrin666]

Actually the vast majority of that type of software runs pretty flawlessly under wine. Ironically, a lot of the software actually runs better under wine than under XP/Vista because it's ancient and crusty 16bit stuff.

Re:Linux

[IceFox]

I used KTouch to learn how to type on a dvorak keyboard and found it to be a very good app.

Re:Linux

[langelgjm]

Typing training packages? When we were taught to type, we had these things called "books," that we put next to the computer. In fact, I'm pretty sure the book we used was published when the Selectric was new.

Re:Linux

[hedwards]

Sort of, kind of, not really? Schools are supposed to teach children skills that they can apply in the real world. One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac?

Kids' software needs are significantly different from that of adults, with the possible except of a good Office suite, which everybody needs. Where's the equivalent of your doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab?

While I agree MS's tactics here are pretty low, it doesn't immediately lead us to "switch to Linux", because honestly it's not a viable alternative.

On the other hand, Apple has traditionally had the support of children's software publishers. Maybe they can leverage this situation to their advantage...

When I was in school, the only difference between the computers we used and the ones that adults used was that kids were at the keyboards and the particular programs we wanted to use. The typing programs were on computers that were probably 13 or 14 years old, and all of them were still monochrome. Most of them were mid 80s era ibms.

As for typing, there is always http://tuxtype.sourceforge.net/ I haven't used it, but it looks like it is in a similar vein to the typing program I used at home.

Typing programs are really not that hard to design, especially if they are like the ones that were used in my typing class. Basically we would copy on the line below what was printed on screen, and the teacher would yell if we were looking down. The computer would then compare the lines, calculate the time and give a score. Not really that hard to do.

The big issue is that if a student can't afford to purchase Office 2007 on top of the price of a computer, why should they be unable to bring files over to the school computers? The site licensing isn't inherently wrong, it really depends upon how much is being charged, if the price for the total computers is below what the price for just the ones in use, that isn't such a bad thing. The school my mother works for has a site license for a number of programs and they can install that on a huge number of computers without having to account for where each copy is.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

WTH, my Debian install came with a typing teacher program.

Re:Linux

[mackyrae]

TuxTyping has a rather limited wordlist...at least on the "long word" setting (I haven't tried any of the easy settings). A friend of mine is a high school teacher, though, and he teaches computer science. The "advanced topics" class, where students who've taken a year of programming classes are given the chance to write whatever software they want (basically), has a student who is writing a typing tutor program that is in a game format similar to one the teacher said he remembers. It sounds like it acts like TuxTyping with the falling letters, but you have to type the full word and it won't let you switch until either you get the word wrong or you finish it. TuxTyping, unfortunately, lets you type the letters out of order. Of course, as with all software written in that teacher's classroom, it will be open source for Linux (they use Edubuntu in their school computer lab, so Linux is their natural target OS).

Re:Linux

[freedomlinux]

Hey! I practiced my typing with 'touch' and it put tons of empty files all over my /home! grr... buggy software
On a more serious note, KTouch is a useful program, and you will likely find an open-source program equivalent to pretty much everything.

Re:Linux

[niiler]

You've got to be kidding me. In addition to the touch typing options mentioned above, there are:

For languages:

• Parley - Introduced in KDE 4
• KVerbos - in the Edutainment package of all KDE-based distros
• Rosetta Stone under Wine (gold rated as of 2006)
• Konjue - an add-on, but useful

For Physics:

• eduKator - an hypertext based book for physics instruction with working examples
• Step - a physics particle simulator

For Math:

• KAlgebra - a function plotter with advanced capabilities
• Kalcul - simple arithmetic trainer
• GeoGebra - similar to geometer's sketchpad
• At an upper level, Scilab, Octave, R, QtiPlot, RKWard

For geography:

• Marble - to be released with KDE 4
• KGeography - currently in the KDE Edutainment pack

For music:

• Score Reading Trainer
• KLearnNotes2 - a basic score tutor
• NoteEdit - reads midi files and converts them to scores - also great for composing
• A ton of other audio programs including Audacity, Rosegarden, etc. for composing, editing, multitracking...

For Mind-Mapping:

• Semantik

Anyhow, you get the gist. As someone who has taught in both High School and College and whose wife tutors middle schoolers, I can't say that I've seen anything they are running that can't be replaced by linux based code (or in rare cases, by Windows code running on Wine).

Re:Linux

[bigstrat2003]

You obviously agree with him Actually, I neither agree nor disagree. I just don't want to see someone called a troll just for apparent disagreement. I don't know the state of Linux apps as it pertains to school use, nor, as I don't run a school's IT department, am I inclined to find out. The point is, at worst, this guy is misinformed, not a troll.

Re:Linux

[leenks]

That's a poor argument. As much as I dislike Windows, it is possible to lock it down so it is barely customisable / tweakable / usable too.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

Hehe. No it isnt. With Windows there is *always* another way.
The tricks for getting around some of them are hilariously stupid.

Linux is also very simple to lock down to school standards.
Dont want the buggers to be executing their own programs? One small edit and they cannot execute anything which isnt already on the system.

Also it allows the sys admins to allow a little bit of customization which Windows cannot do easily like program preferences or even changing the background image only for themselves.

Re:Linux

[rtb61]

I believe you missed the real issue of licence that M$ was trying to foist on schools. It was attempting to make M$ licence compulsory for all students regardless of what computers they were using. Say for example schools decided to use the OLPC computer as it fulfils all the necessary requirements for schools, a low cost durable computer with all the required free software needed and specifically targeted at student education.

So while lazy, cheap teachers get the free windows and M$ office at home they are making everybody else pay for all the student licences even when the student's computers aren't and likely wont be using any M$ software. So it is a straight up lie and to be honest your lie is just that as well. The truth is M$ is not a viable option for school use, where you would have to be paying a licence fee for each and every student for the 12 years that are at school amounting to thousands of dollars added to the cost of public schooling, M$ exploiting children yet again.

As for keyboarding, I used a computer everyday at work no touch typing, basically because I had to shift the keyboard around my work, no set location, no touch typing. So you see everybody on the planet employed as secretaries, computer coders and data input operators. Silly me and I though the OLPC XO laptop was already being used with Linux to effectively teach children in schools and that was the real reason behind the new M$=B$ licensing scheme.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

KDE has a literately *huge* quantity of educational programs. Everything from typing to astronomy to vocabulary training to maths and science.
Whenever I look in to that folder I'm amazed.

Saying Windows is better for that kind of stuff is stupid.
Windows doesnt have a single educational program on it out of the box.

Linux for schools is nearly a ideal fit.
It makes the sys admin's job a lot easier and there is already a lot of software tailor made for schools.

Re:Linux

[soliptic]

And, ironically, you get modded flamebait for that! Unbelievable...

Re:Linux

[ozmanjusri]

The point is, at worst, this guy is misinformed, not a troll.

He's not misinformed, unless you consider Bill Hilf's memos as misinformation.

...and there's no -1 Astroturf option, so Troll's the next best choice.

Re:Linux

[chromatic]

You have to lock Windows down to make it barely usable now?

Re:Linux

[T-Bone_142]

The best way to teach a kid to type is a IM Client. Seriously, i have seen it work for a lot of kids and some of these kids have learning disabilities (like ADD).

Re:Linux

[bigstrat2003]

He's not misinformed You have no proof of that. Hell, proof aside, you can't even begin to know that. You're guessing at the intent of someone who you probably have never even met before, there's no way to tell.

...and there's no -1 Astroturf option, so Troll's the next best choice. You know, far too many posters on slashdot are so quick to cry astroturfing. Think about that accusation for half a second. If he's an astroturfer, he's pretty poor at it. He has bad things to say about Microsoft, and even suggests that Apple might be a good alternative. The man says, "Well, Microsoft is bad, sure, but Linux isn't necessarily the best choice," and you cry astroturf? That's the most laughable astroturfing claim I've ever heard. I hope that Microsoft would have more sense than to hire undercover PR guys who would bash their business practices, and promote their competition.

So basically, your "logic" is that anyone that expresses a reservation about Linux must be getting paid to do so. Glad to know that level-headedness still prevails on teh intarwebz.

Re:Linux

[bigstrat2003]

It's ok, it was worth it. Someone has to call them out, and if I have to burn karma to do it, so be it. Downmodding because you disagree is cowardly, and hurts all of us by encouraging minority viewpoints not to speak up. I realistically can't hope to change these people's poor behavior by chastising them, but it does feel good to vent, so meh.

Re:Linux

[ealar dlanvuli]

Mod parent down. He has either never explored educational software on Linux, or is a troll/astroturf.

I learned how to type in dvorak perfectly well using a typing tutor on Linux. Ubuntu comes with a whole menu entry devoted to Education.

Sean

Re:Linux

[pizzach]

Sort of, kind of, not really? Schools are supposed to teach children skills that they can apply in the real world. One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac? Special software? They taught keyboarding in my school though Microsoft Works. But of course we all knew Microsoft Works is special software. *snicker*

Re:Linux

[ydrol]

http://edu.kde.org/

Re:Linux

[BertieBaggio]

While I agree MS's tactics here are pretty low, it doesn't immediately lead us to "switch to Linux", because honestly it's not a viable alternative.

In school I used BBC micros, and later, Acorns running RISC OS. We actually had plenty of interesting software for both.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Sort of, kind of, not really? Schools are supposed to teach children skills that they can apply in the real world. One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac?

Touch typing's a great skill, for a secretary.

Re:Linux

[Ash-Fox]

And no, saying that Word doesn't run under *nux is not acceptable.

It runs under Wine.

Re:Linux

[Vancorps]

It's trivially easy to customize most any aspect of Windows through login scripts with elevated privileges. They are server-side so they can't be edited locally. I'd say both your standard distros and Windows are equally customizable from a UI standpoint. You don't even have to run explorer if you don't want. There are a number of shells available for Windows.

I haven't found anything that's not scriptable in any Windows environment, we even configured login scripts to configure Windows Messenger on mandatory profiles. When the sysadmin logs in all tweaks are disabled opening the system up for modification. It's not that hard to enforce either with smart cards or even simple password protection.

Re:Linux

[ozmanjusri]

He has bad things to say about Microsoft, and even suggests that Apple might be a good alternative.

Good point.

He does work for Apple, so make that "Tim Cook's memos as misinformation", instead of Bill Hilf's.

It's still astroturf though.

Re:Linux

[timmarhy]

lets examine that statement for a second.

how employable do you think someone is going to be if they go into the workforce having never used windows?

yes, thats right, you just hurt their chances at getting a job all in the name of your own pet crusade.

schools are not the place for politics of any kind.

Re:Linux

[bigstrat2003]

Apple has no reason to hire astroturfers, so that suggestion is ludicrous as well. Why the hell would Apple hire astroturfers when they have fanboys (it's ok, Apple fans, I'm not accusing all of you, just some) as insanely rabid as they do? Apple zealots put all other zealots to shame.

Re:Linux

[ozmanjusri]

The guy says he has skills including;

Programming: CVS, SVN, C++, .NET (VB.NET/C#), Java, VB6, JScript, XML, X/HTML, PHP, Python, Visual Studio, XCode, some Objective-C, some PLC exp. Are you seriously suggesting someone with that experience could claim Linux had no "typing training, doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff" out of ignorance?

I've got a nice bridge over here. Going cheap...

Re:Linux

[speaker of the truth]

Its also harder for teachers to administrate.

Re:Linux

[speaker of the truth]

Because there's nothing like REPLACING EVERY SINGLE COMPUTER to keep the IT budget down in a school.

Re:Linux

[bigstrat2003]

Uh, yes. Duh. Very simple, very possible explanation right off the top of my head: he could just not use Linux. This may be a shocking concept to someone immersed in the Linux world, but those of us who don't use it (me, for one) simply don't give a damn about what is or isn't available for it. If, then, you're given bad information, you have almost no incentive to go verify it, and will be misinformed. You make it sound like someone who's knowledgeable in one computing-related area automatically is, or even wants to, be knowledgeable at all about something else just because it's also computing-related. This is not, in fact, necessarily true.

Re:Linux

[ozmanjusri]

very possible explanation right off the top of my head: he could just not use Linux.

Ok, so you believe that a skilled software engineer and Apple employee with experience in SVN and CVS, PHP and Python who is unfamiliar with Linux, yet makes detailed false claims about it on a tech website, is just misinformed?

Occam's razor's looking a bit blunt today, don't you think?

Re:Linux

[Gideon Fubar]

Indeed it does. There are also several viable alternatives which don't need to run under wine.

I'm still eager to hear about this windows educational software with no alternative under linux.. Perhaps the GP meant this indispensable educational software... It's as likely as anything else..

Re:Linux

[Blkdeath]

Its also harder for teachers to administrate.

Take it from me; teachers don't administrate, and when they do all they do is mess things up. Usually pretty horribly at that. Teachers in public (elementary, secondary) schools tend towards the computer illiterate side of the fence. Some to the degree of simple uncertainty, some to the degree where they'll order a student suspended because they changed their desktop background - that's the outright fear category right there.

We've had teachers inform us, the lowly know-nothing network administrators (see, we weren't University Edumucated so what could we really know anyways?) that their lab was working PERFECTLY the day before, that NOTHING had changed, except somehow the computers wouldn't turn on anymore. Yes, of course they're plugged in! I checked it personally!

Yes, the power bars were unplugged from the wall outlets. He was correct though; the computers were in fact plugged into the power bars.

As for software administration, hoo-boy, you don't even want to go near that one.

Security? What of the teacher who used to perpetually walk from his math class to the computer lab across the hall and leave his online bank and investment site LOGGED IN all through 2nd period?

Or even common sense. Like why I, a male network administrator, would want access to the girl's phys-ed office (not the change room, the office, where the computer connected to the dead printer was).

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

if i had mod points, you'd be getting troll right about now

Re:Linux

[Blkdeath]

Ahhhhhhh, so you're one of the idiot moderators who defines "trolling" as "I don't agree with your point".

No, the OP was trolling because they said something inflammatory and decidedly incorrect in order to incite a large thread of responses. Their post skirts the line between troll and flamebait. It certainly was not a "point" (otherwise "opinion") that can be agreed or disagreed with; they made a statement of fact without any effort to provide supporting documentation or research.

FWIW, had the OP stated that their personal experience with pre/grade school applications under Linux was poor and therefore Linux had a long way to go before it was a plausible alternative educational platform, that would be an opinion that could be countered with alternate experiences and discussed. However a snide remark implying rather overtly that "doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab" do not exist for Linux is a troll no matter how you slice it.

Sorry pardner, but making a snide remark about how unfair and biased the Slashdot moderation system is is also kinda trollish. :) (Not to mention tired and just a little whiny. :P )

Re:Linux

[Obsi]

I know only one typing-lesson program for WINDOWS, and that's Mavis. All the rest of the ones I used in elementary school were DOS based. Ah, good ol' Mario.

Re:Linux

[Blkdeath]

Ok, so you believe that a skilled software engineer and Apple employee with experience in SVN and CVS, PHP and Python who is unfamiliar with Linux, yet makes detailed false claims about it on a tech website, is just misinformed?

I don't see anything in the individual's list of experience that implicitly requires Linux usage.

Occam's razor's looking a bit blunt today, don't you think?

Here's one for you; perhaps the poster has never actually had the need to locate/install such applications on a Linux computer, or perhaps made a cursory search from a Windows desktop and decided it was too much effort and just went ahead with the Windows variants and never looked back? Or perhaps the person actually has no children and has never actually even investigated said software and was speaking out the side of his face and hoping not to get caught?

Re:Linux

[ozmanjusri]

Or perhaps the person actually has no children and has never actually even investigated said software and was speaking out the side of his face and hoping not to get caught?

What would motivate such a person to make the post at all?

Re:Linux

[linuxci]

lets examine that statement for a second.

how employable do you think someone is going to be if they go into the workforce having never used windows?

yes, thats right, you just hurt their chances at getting a job all in the name of your own pet crusade.

schools are not the place for politics of any kind.

When I was at school it was BBC Micros and Acorn Archimedes that ruled the day. For home use it was Sinclair and Commodore. Schools should not teach MS Word, they should teach word processing in general and offer exposure to a number of packages so they'll learn principles rather than location of menu items.

The version of office that they use in school will probably have no resemblance to the one they'll be using when they leave school and that's assuming that MS Office is still the dominant player at the time.

I think my knowledge of computing has benefited by having exposure to a number of operating systems (including Windows), saying the only way to make someone employable is to only teach kids what's popular today is complete nonsense.

Re:Linux

[Blkdeath]

What would motivate such a person to make the post at all?

Haven't you ever known somebody who speaks mostly because they like the sound of their own voice? Same principle applies to the text from their fingers.

Re:Linux

[ozmanjusri]

Haven't you ever known somebody who speaks mostly because they like the sound of their own voice?

Haven't you ever heard of employees who denigrate a competitor's products?

I doubt we'll agree on this, so let's be fair and split the difference. 50% astroturfer and 50% psycho?.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Will you Luddites please move back to 1970 where you belong and stay there? "Typing training" went out with the IBM Selectric. Kids need to be taught to prepare themselves for the seventy years of revolutionary developments in technology which they will encounter, not be trained to be desk monkeys typing memos.

CAPTCHA: compile, n. something not done by anybody who was raised in a Microsoft box.

Re:Linux

[Blkdeath]

The worst way to teach a kid to type is a IM Client. Seriously, i have seen it work for a lot of kids and some of these kids have learning disabilities (like ADD).

There, fixed that for you.

Kids who use IM clients, text messaging on cell phones, etc. develop a very early crutch on short forms, symbols, letters in place of words, acronyms for anything common, a complete lack of syntax and a dozen other nightmares preventing the proper development of language skills. The younger they're exposed to this the worse off they are.

My younger brother is guilty of all of the above and I insist that when he talks to me via IM he use proper sentence structure or I'll ignore him. I don't want to hear about "2day wen i went 2 da part wit ma bffls ... " and it serves no educational purpose to him or his friends to continue in that fashion.

Re:Linux

[speaker of the truth]

Aaah. Well it was different at my schools. Glad to see the school you work at though has a professional admin.

Re:Linux

[Blkdeath]

schools are not the place for politics of any kind.

ROTFL! That's a good one! Now, here in the real world ...

Re:Linux

[JohnBailey]

lets examine that statement for a second.

how employable do you think someone is going to be if they go into the workforce having never used windows?

yes, thats right, you just hurt their chances at getting a job all in the name of your own pet crusade.

schools are not the place for politics of any kind. So everyone over about thirty is unemployable!! The vast overwhelming majority of people leaving school are not going to walk into a tech job. They are going to be sitting in front of a word processor or a spreadsheet, or more likely a call centre database, or a custom designed database particular to their chosen profession. And quite a few are not going to get any closer than a POS display at the local supermarket. That is what the school is aiming at. Basic generic office skills. Not manufacturing power users and programmers or graphic artists.

Being realistic.. An employer is not going to take the school qualification seriously for a tech job. So programing and other similar skills are a waste of the school's and the student's time at this level. Programmers and analysts get to go to university or on specific training courses to get these skills. The same applies to any of the more skilled computer jobs where the differences between one OS and another are really relevant. A GCSE in computer science...wow.. have you considered a career in the fast food industry.. McDonalds is always hiring. A high mark on a school course might mean you don't have to sit an aptitude test for a computer course, but thats about it.

Re:Linux

[Adambomb]

PVP MUDs. When less than one command every 2.5 seconds = disadvantage, I learned pretty quick.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

Its also trivially easy to bypass such server side login scripts.
Pulling out the network cable about 5 seconds after logging in usually does the trick. :)
Windows then defaults to a 'allow all' state.

Yes Windows is fully scriptable but it will only allow you to lock down the really obvious things.
They are extremely simple to work around if your determined enough.
Hint: At a school, there will be plenty of bored kids who are determined.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

It can be done in Windows , fairly easily. All the admin had to do is to ban binaries through the Software Restricion Policies.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't have to license XP for this machine as it as far as I'm aware, it can't run XP as it uses a PPC chip.
If the Microsoft licensing police question it just say 'Prove it'

But in general terms this requirement by Microsoft to pay for a license regardless of whether or not it is running windows is nowt more than blackmail.

I wonder what they will do when th substitute Vista for XP and then try to get schools to cough up for licenses on systems that are below the minimum spec needed to run Vista. If they do then that will open another can of worms. Could a court hold them (Microsoft) liable for the upgrade costs?

Re:Linux

[flowsnake]

I agree. Developing key skills in IT is important these days, but if our children are actually learning the skills rather than simply mindlessly parroting a list of 'click here' steps then it doesn't matter which platform is used. When I was at school it was Acorn BBC Micros everywhere, and a few Acorn Archimedes sneaking in. Fantastic machines, although at the time none of us seemed to be too concerned about vendor lock-in to the Acorn Computers ecosystem! I used Acorn computers through high school, never touching a Microsoft box, and yet I don't seem to recall this being a problem later in life when working as a .NET developer. A related issue which is often forgotten is what the role of computers in education actually is; what are we hoping to gain from their use? Is the aim that children learn about computers? Or is the aim that computers are merely a support tool for other learning? The two issues are perhaps linked, but are nevertheless fundamentally different. In the case of the latter, the choice of computing platform is entirely irrelevant.

Re:Linux

[badspyro]

I, a young whippersnapper can agree to that! So many games, so much software! Those were the days...

How I miss the sound of the 5 1/4 floppy disk drive...

Re:Linux

[dotancohen]

At my university their are XP machines locked down so that one cannot even open the file manager, they are web-browser only (supposedly). To access my disk on key, I found that I can simply browse the filesystem in IE's File -> Open dialog.

When I decided that I'm sick of that setup, I tried to boot Slax but discovered that the BIOS is set to boot from the harddisk first, and is password protected. So I unplugged the machine, and using a broken mechanical pencil managed to pop to battery off the motherboard through air vents in the locked case. Five minutes later, hehehe, I opened the now-default-settings BIOS, set it to boot from CD, and away I was.

Moral:_ANYTHING_ can be bypassed so long as the intruder is determined, and having physical access to the hardware (locked case or not) certainly helps. Linux probably might have helped prevent me from using the disk on key, but it would not have helped prevent me from defeating the BIOS.

Re:Linux

[ddrichardson]

Kids' software needs are significantly different from that of adults, with the possible except of a good Office suite, which everybody needs. Where's the equivalent of your doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab?

You'd be surprised at the software in use in their ICT labs, my oldest's work is almost entirely web based - so he can carry on at home. There is no problem here with deploying alternative operating systems.

The problem as I see it with IT in most UK schools is the lack of qualified, experienced IT staff - there isn't the budget for it so it's mostly teachers with an interest in IT, many of whom have never heard of anything but Microsoft.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

You may want to note that that *only* prevents Explorer from launching exes.
Any other program can be used to launch a program. Word (VBA rocks), Help, Batch files, and so on.

There is no way to prevent unauthorized programs from running with only Microsoft software.
To do it you'd need a program to whitelist each allowed program's signature and kill any others that are running.

Re:Linux

[antiseptic_poetry]

That's bullsh#t. In Windows Group Policy Manager, enable User Configuration > Administrative Templates > System > Scripts > Run logon scripts synchronously. This tells Windows is disallow any user interactive (i.e. no desktop, no windows explorer, no nothing) after logging in until all login scripts have run. Of course any admin using loginscripts would have this setting enabled.

I used to work in a highschool, trust me we had to lock the Windows computers down well. There are simple work arounds but for a few things, but they're all solvable with a bit of effort - only stupid admins would roll out a locked standard profile without serious testing anyway.

Re:Linux

[ritesonline]

"over about thirty"?

I think the point is that students shouldn't be restricted to any particular OS or set of apps and the MS agreement intends to do just that, and charge more for the privilege.

You're spot on about a school 'qualifications' but that said, all kids will benefit from some experience of MS when they go into the workplace. If they're serious about anything they'll need to broaden that knowledge and school is the most obvious place to start but if the school's got no Macs or 'nixen then how're they gonna do that?

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

Try it. Log in and pull out the network jack after various amounts of time.

I think Windows does the login stuff in two parts, the actual login and then all the policy stuff.
There must be some unnecessary stuff in between the two parts which is why ripping the network cable works.
Trust me, it works.

Re:Linux

[innerweb]

I have seen laptops, that if you popped the battery off to tamper with the BIOS, or if you forgot your password, you have to ship the unit in to have the BIOS reset. I am not sure if anyone has found an exploit on those yet, but that is a step in the direction of security.

And, yep, it is darned inconvenient for the average Joe. It has a home in the corporate and government worlds though.

InnerWeb

Re:Linux

[innerweb]

Jeez. I had to read that twice. Hahaha! I could see my wife doing that though.

InnerWeb

Re:Linux

[MORB]

You mean, something like that: http://edu.kde.org/ ?

Re:Linux

[AP31R0N]

As long as she eventually or elsewhere learns to use Windows and MSO, that's fine. Windows still commands 90+% of the desktop market share. They be better off learning Windows and MSO in terms of what they will actually USE in life.

There are advantages to M$'s monopoly for the user. It means i know how to use the machines at virtually every company in the world. Macs dominate only in those industries that are still buying into the myth that macs are better for graphics and multimedia editing. Such places are few and far between.

If a kid learns a *nix, great, but they also need to know things that will be... useful. Go to a temp agency knowing only how to use macs or openoffice. They won't be able to place you.

Re:Linux

[Vancorps]

You are completely incorrect, group policy is applied first unless it is the first time the machine is booting up after being joined to the domain. Otherwise, in my case at least, if you unplug the network cable you lose your desktop, my documents, and all your application settings until you plug the cable back in. The machine is completely useless for a standard user. When I login I have a local profile so I can always admin the machine.

That's even moot since the group policy is set to a locked state you depend on the login script to enable functionality, not disable it. As a result if you try to login without the cable plugged in it won't let you in since password caching is obviously disabled. Pull it after you login and bam, you've got a useless session as I described above. Windows is more flexible and secure than you give it credit for. Just like the Linux side of the equation, a good admin is a good admin. If they are lazy then of course there will be problems.

Re:Linux

[EvilRyry]

Part of the reason that people use Microsoft is because they grow up with it in schools. This is why Microsoft gives such large discounts to certain markets including business startups and education. Its like giving cigarettes to a kid, you know if you can get them hooked at a young age, you'll have a loyal lifelong customer.

So, if we start kids on non-MS platforms, I'd be willing to bet we'll be seeing more businesses and individuals using other platforms in 10 or 20 years. In short, your argument is the problem.

Re:Linux

[plague3106]

Hehe. No it isnt. With Windows there is *always* another way.
The tricks for getting around some of them are hilariously stupid.

Spoken as somebody that hasn't used Windows in a long time. Nothing you mentioned is even that hard to do on Windows. Maybe you should google Group Policy instead of sounding stupid.

Re:Linux

[plague3106]

Nope. You can prevent that by disabling Logon Caching. No link to the domain controller = no logon period.

So far in this thread I've only read about admins not doing their job, not something that wasn't possible for Windows to control access to.

Re:Linux

[plague3106]

Did they happen to have Tux Teaches Grammar? Or did you skip that day?

Re:Linux

[plague3106]

I don't buy that at all. I grew up when DOS 3.33 was the most current version. I had both Apple's, Macs and PCs in my schools. Why did I go with a PC? Well, my parents buying one helped, but when I was in school and wanted my OWN computer, guess what was more affordable? A PC, which included DOS. So that's what I bought.

Re:Linux

[plague3106]

Really? And Works has something built in to teach you the home row? It times your exercises, and randomizes words you'll need to type? It tells you how many keys you've mistyped? Touch typing != simply pushing keys.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Computer?! Damn kids. When I learned to type it was on a typewriter. And we liked it too! Sadly, I'm not even 30 yet.... Florida Public Schools ftw.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Not at all. If you create a path rule and you can try this out with a limited user, no executable will run from within the defined path rule. The file types that are affected by this rule must be listed in the Designated file types.
Path rule : c:\documents and settings\limited : NOT ALLOWED. There are some neat tricks with command.com and cmd.exe from with notepad but try to run a batch file from within the listed rule...Won't work. Just try it. Don't forget to exclude the local admin otherwise you have problem :-) I think you have not tried this yourself.

Re:Linux

[miskatonic alumnus]

how employable do you think someone is going to be if they go into the workforce having never used windows?

I don't know. One of my friends from high school ended up as head of R&D at Hitachi Data Systems. You know what he learned about computers in high school? BASIC on a CBM 8032.

Wow. I mean like, how is that possible?

Re:Linux

[Kattspya]

I'm not so sure. I more or less learned typing from chatting inside games. When I was younger I used all the abbreviations but when I got older I decided I didn't need the abbreviations because my typing was fast enough. Now all I need to learn is correct placement of hands but that isn't going to happen.

I'm not saying it's a good way to learn but I am saying that it probably isn't as detrimental as you seem to think.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I dislike Windows, it is possible to lock it down so it is barely customisable / tweakable / usable too.

In fact, if you just leave it on, it will lock itself down all by itself!

Re:Linux

[uniquename72]

When we were taught to type, we had these things called "books," ... Not sure if you were trolling or trying to be funny, but today we have these new things called "computers" that can facilitate the learning process, even when doing learning mechanical things like typing.

I'm fairly certain, for example, that your typing textbook didn't automatically time your quizzes, spot errors, and give you instantaneous feedback on your performance. It probably also didn't include fun typing games for younger children.

In fact, if you're as much of a luddite as your post would imply, you might ask why computers are in the classroom to begin with.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

For most of the software schools use, there are no open alternatives.

If that was really true, then Microsoft would not be sooo anxious to shut down open source in schools, now would they?

Re:Linux

[kc2keo]

I too used to work at a high school. I was the main IT guy working there fixing, configuring, moving computer furniture around where it was needed, setting up computers and throwing out old computer parts. I got a bunch of good parts like 40GB harddrives that would otherwise be in the trash. Yes I had it good but I also had the older IT guys that were usually cold, unfriendly, and seemed like they were out to get you fired or something.

This was about 6 years ago when I worked there. I was stupid and curious at the same time. I was nicknamed "hacker George". Mainly because I knew how to exploit their security holes. I used to report them to the staff thinking I'd get more pats on the back.

Got myself fired because I disobeyed some staff and was trying to check out what else I can crack/bypass/whatever without their knowledge... What did I learn??? Obey the rules of your employers and whoever is above you... no matter how tempting it is to break them. Really is not that worth the trouble. I lost the trust of many people. Also, I stole hardware... Good thing I did not do anything of that sort now otherwise I might be in jail or facing heavy fines or something.

Not going to give specifics about what I did for obvious reasons...

Re:Linux

[vux984]

You wouldn't have to license XP for this machine as it as far as I'm aware, it can't run XP as it uses a PPC chip. If the Microsoft licensing police question it just say 'Prove it'

No, that's how absurd the Microsoft educational licensing is. They *DO* have have to license XP for it.

The fact that it doesn't run it doesn't matter.
The fact that it CAN'T run it doesn't matter.

Re:Linux

[vux984]

Go to a temp agency knowing only how to use macs or openoffice. They won't be able to place you.

True. But if you know how to write documents and create spreadsheets your already ahead of most applicants, and a couple days playing with Microsoft Office / Windows and you'll be ready to go.

The education system shouldn't be providing microsoft product training. It should be providing an education. Ideally, I'd want my kids high school "data processing" class to have:

Microsoft Office, Open Office, and iWork.

And require assignments be created in all 3. I want my kids be platform agnostic, and comfortable on all of them. Then when faced with Office 2007 "with ribbons" or faced with Star Office which they've never used at all, they'll cope just fine. Because they'll understand how "word processors" work, and they'll understand how "excel spreadsheets" work and what they do, and will be prepared to figure out how to achieve the effect they want in whatever program they are sitting in front of. And they'll be comfortable using the help and the internet to figure out how to achieve effect X in program Y.

Re:Linux

[torry_loon]

Anyone looking for decent Typing Tutor software should take a look at Ten Thumbs Typing Tutor http://www.tenthumbstypingtutor.com/. It will run on Windows, Mac OS X, Classic Mac, Linux and if you must, it even runs on Vista. It's not free, but the support is excellent. KTouch is good, but primary age children will be bored easily. I recommend anyone who wants to try linux in a primary school, dual boot their existing Windows with one of the buntus and use as much of the same open source software as possible on Windows. You will find that the children will spend more time in Linux than Windows. At the school I work in, the children love applications like Tuxpaint, Gcompris, Childsplay, Celestia, Scratch and Google Earth. IMHO Ubuntu (and possibly SUSE) has now reached the stage where it is a viable replacement for Windows in nursery and primary schools. It is just a case of letting people know that alternatives exist.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

Have you tried it?

I'm not sure exactly how it works. I was never in a position to packet sniff it while it occurred but it always worked.
Keep in mind that the machines I used it against did not have roaming profile.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

I have not tried it myself no. I've got a phobia when it comes to Windows servers.
At school I was the person breaking the same policies you mention.

I believe that path rule you mention operates a bit like a virus I've seen where it 'proxies' every execution request. I used similar techniques to bypass it as well.
If another program spawns the program (e.g. VBA and shell) then there is nothing that can be done.

Re:Linux

[cheater512]

Remember that Group Policy was glued on top of Windows. It only controls the obvious things.

Read the posts in this thread. There are many instances of people breaking group policy.

If you firmly believe that Group Policy is infallible, then are you sure that you weren't my school's sys admins? :)

Re:Linux

[lumpeh]

Yep, you login with the cable in then just pull it out before policies are pulled down and it will decide you feed a normal default user profile without all those lock downs present. I ended up taking the policy registries of a fresh student account and merging them with the default user hive on all the workstations. I did have to make sure the teacher policies were a positive inverse of the students else you end up with a dodgy hybrid of the two which makes staff think they've been done for doing something bad ;) A real PITA but you'd think MS would think of this things instead of us admins having to work together dirty scripts n dll hacks (against EULA that!) to overcome them.

Re:Linux

[Z34107]

Hehe. No it isnt. With Windows there is *always* another way.

Depends on how they lock it down. My school used some stupid program called "Fool Proof." (Kind of ironic, isn't it?) All it did was install some hooks (on Windows 98) to try to keep you from doing very specific things a very specific way - and there was always another way its creators didn't think to block. Besides, the password to disable it was common knowledge. (Pst: If you want real IT security at schools, don't let the teachers have stick-it notes.) Besides, 98 Group Policy or whatever they called it sucks.

XP (and the rest of the NT versions that use NTFS) support file system and user permissions roughly equivalent to *nix. If you set up an XP/Vista machine right ("right" as in properly configured Active Directory and whatnot), nobody's fucking with anything. When my school got XP machines, however, they didn't do that either - they bought another ineffective program to do what was built into the OS.

So, yea, the NTs have all had their chmod and beyond for a long time. If my one-sample survey is any indication of the rest of the country, however, most schools prefer to have something that looks like it works as opposed to something that does - even if the latter is free and part of the OS.

Re:Linux

[langelgjm]

Nah, I was just making a joke. What I thought was funny about it was that we were learning on computers... and yet we still used these ancient hardback books that were bound at the top and were written at a time when DOS didn't necessarily imply MS. And it was up to the teacher to time our quizzes, etc.

Not that any software we would have used would have helped me, since I switched to the Dvorak layout a year ago. No books this time though: just a simple online tutorial, and a decent amount of time where I didn't have to type anything important.

Re:Linux

[dotancohen]

Wow, that's good to know. I use a US market Dell laptop as my daily driver. I haven't pulled it apart yet, but now I know to check that before I fiddle with the motherboard. I cannot imagine having to ship this thing to US (I'm in Israel) to have the BIOS reset. It would be nice if the lappy came with some type of warning.

Re:Linux

[Vancorps]

I've tried it under a number of circumstances, with roaming profiles, mandatory profiles, and local profiles with folder redirection. All can be controlled effectively through group policy. There are few local escalation exploits but getting the code on to the box is quite difficult to begin with so it takes a good amount of skill just to get your foot in the door. It's not even that hard to setup or particular time consuming because you can do it to a base machine then create a security profile and apply it en masse.

The reason why Windows is so shoddy for home users is because it really does suit business needs well. Vista is Microsoft trying to swing it in the other direction, fortunately it's just more that you have to setup in group policy initially, you can still do it all en masse except that with Vista you have even more control over how group policy is applied.

The very important issue at hand is the fact that these security precautions are not the default, as you are I'm sure aware the default is wide open so that's still an issue and probably will continue to be an issue. There are a number of ways to apply group policy, some passive and just there to assist users, then there are some active security measures you have which can't be disabled and enforce an entirely different level of security.

Of course nothing is ever perfect but mandatory profiles do effectively eliminate any spyware or virus concerns for a machine.

Re:Linux

[pizzach]

The point is you don't NEED a special program to teach typing dipwad. In a school setting, your sources for learning information are usually not limited to a computer screen. Yes you can have a program baby you though everything, but it is not strictly needed. A teacher can teach you how to use the home row. (It's usually the teachers job to teach by the way.) Spell check usually does a great job of finding mistyped keys. My school actually had physical printouts that you had to touch type into the computer. The printouts were designed to match the level you're at, getting progressively harder. I swear, kids these days.

Re:Linux

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

That's exactly the first thing I thought, too. That taught me and several other people I know how to type much better in a hurry. When you can either have high speed/accuracy or lose the game, you suddenly have a lot of motivation to do it right.

Re:Linux

[plague3106]

Printouts don't exactly tell you if you got the stroke right or wrong though do they? No, you don't NEED spcial software, but it helps and goes a long way.

A program that makes you hit FJFJFJFJFJFJFJFJ over and over again, throwing in A or ; to make sure your got the pattern correct helps you learn that much faster. Spell check doesn't work if you're just doing the home row for a particular lesson.

Re:Linux

[QuietObserver]

I agree very much with your point; I've been a little bit of an offender here on Slashdot recently, but overall, it's much better to teach a person to type correctly first. My typing speed improved remarkably with a single typing course over the course of a semester in junior high; that was seventh or eighth grade, I can't remember which. Since then, my typing has improved remarkably; I'll never be a secretary -- one hundred plus words per minute in a real life scenario is an unimaginable target to me -- but I can do forty or better transcribing, and I believe I do better still when composing (I typically average a page in an hour or so, which involves erratic spurts of inspiration, so I have no idea how fast I'm actually typing). If I'd learned typing via an IM client, I doubt my present numbers would be even remotely as impressive as they are now. I always get carried away with this kind of thing, and I just wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

Educational License?

[bazald]

FTA:

It reminds schools they are legally obliged to have licensed software, but suggests they use instead what is known as "perpetual licensing". Becta is just suggesting they continue to buy software rather than "moving to Microsoft's School Agreement subscription licensing model" even though it may be more expensive initially. This is because under the subscription licensing model, "Microsoft required schools to have licenses for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else."

Re:Educational License?

[EvilGrin666]

I am a network manager in a UK school. So I do have a little knowledge on this subject. If anyone wishes to read up on exactly what a 'Schools Agreement' license entails they can do so here and/or here. If you want to get a feel for how much this scheme costs a school have a look at this thread or this one on EduGeek.

Re:Educational License?

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFLA http://www.edugeek.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10411

We use the schools (apostrophe abuse?) agreement, but use a company called insight.. (capitalisation? formatting?) 0800 333 333, They are REALLY (over-emphasis) cheap. They have just done (lack of verbal imagination) a new solution for us (plural abuse) which has saved the school £2000.

This is hwat (spelling) we currently have:
r18-01628 Windows Server CAL All Languages WAH MVL Device CAL x 387
R18-00095 Windows Server CAL All Languages Lic/SA Pack MVL Device CAL x 387
P73-00203 Windows Svr Std All Lng Lic/SA Pack MVL x 10
E84-00308 ISA Server Std Ed All Languages Lic/SA Pack MVL 1 Processor License x 1
76J-01821 Office Enterprise All Lng Lic/SA Pack MVL School x 387
76J-01759 Office Enterprise All Lng WAH MVL x 387
381-02123 Exchange Standard CAL All Lng WAH MVL Device CAL x 387
381-01587 Exchange Standard CAL All Lng Lic/SA Pack MVL Device CAL x 387
312-02177 Exchange Svr All Languages Lic/SA Pack MVL x 1
228-03159 SQL Svr Standard Edtn Win32 All Lng Lic/SA Pack MVL 1 Processor License x 1

(Whateva!)

THis (CAPITALISATION Timothy!!!) cost the school just over £6000 and you get all the updates from microsoft (CAPITALISATION Timothy!!!) and you have to change to download the cds and products from their website (WTF?). You pay yearly (SHOULD be "DeARLy", noT "yearly!!!") for them and when a new version of say office or SQL (WTF?) is out (WTF?) you are automatically entited to upgrade.

C+ for effort Timothy.

_________________
Tim Hobson
Systems Manager
Sherburn High School

Hmm... again, the article is.... slashdotish

[El Lobo]

MS has 2 kind of educational licenses. In sweden they are called Select and campus. Select is the normal license: you install a MS product and you pay for it. Easy and every part is happy.

THE OTHER ONE IS: You pay for all your machines OR users (you can choose the license type). Say , you have 30 users. You pay some ammount of money. Then you have the right to install every MS product for those users in every machine in the university/college/scool, etc AND at home as well. Of course, if you dont use MS at home you are still paying, but this is the agreement. And the prices are MUCH lower than on Select. But nobody is forcing you to agree with this license. Use the old goos Select (pay by installed produts) and thatä's all and well. Of course, this being slashdot, we need our daily article odf env^z^z^z... hate.

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[webmaster404]

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows If someone learned UNIX 10 years ago, they could pick up a modern Linux distro and have little trouble with it, if you take someone who learned Windows 98 and put them on a Vista system, they would be confused and have no clue how to do the most basic things. Same thing with Office, if a UNIX student learned on vi, they could edit text files with ease on a Linux system, take someone who learned on Word 97 and put them on a Word 2007 machine and they would be confused. Not to mention practically anyone knows how to check e-mail, surf the web and get around an operating system, that doesn't get you ahead, now if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration, they could be an entry-level sysadmin for a small company, while the other student would be more or less a data entry clerk, Windows leads to more dependence on MS products, Linux leads to more solutions and more opportunities.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[X0563511]

You know, those are really good points that one usually doesn't see flying around here...

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[bigstrat2003]

That's not true at all. There are people (generally speaking) who learn by figuring things out for themselves, and there are people who learn by memorizing procedures. Those who figure things out for themselves will have no trouble going from Windows to any other OS, especially not another Windows OS. Those who memorize procedures will be just as confused going from Linux to anything else as they would be going from Windows to Linux. The weak link here is the people, it has nothing to do with the environment they use.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[PhysicsPhil]

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows If someone learned UNIX 10 years ago, they could pick up a modern Linux distro and have little trouble with it, if you take someone who learned Windows 98 and put them on a Vista system, they would be confused and have no clue how to do the most basic things. Same thing with Office, if a UNIX student learned on vi, they could edit text files with ease on a Linux system, take someone who learned on Word 97 and put them on a Word 2007 machine and they would be confused. Not to mention practically anyone knows how to check e-mail, surf the web and get around an operating system, that doesn't get you ahead, now if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration, they could be an entry-level sysadmin for a small company, while the other student would be more or less a data entry clerk, Windows leads to more dependence on MS products, Linux leads to more solutions and more opportunities.

I must take exception to this. Yes, if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration they could be an entry level sysadmin. Or they could not know anything about them (well PHP and Server stuff) and become a physicist like me. This is a school setting we're talking about, and they have to train more than just computer users. Students shouldn't have to learn vi in order to type out a book report, nor should they need to know about server administration in order to use a web browser to research said report. The computer is a tool, something to make things easier, not an end unto itself. I think we forget that on Slashdot sometimes.

Speaking from experience, a person who can use Word 97 will have little difficulty adapting to Word 2007, nor will they have much difficulty using OpenOffice for all of the basic stuff that 95% of us use it for. You are correct that Windows teaches someone how to use Windows, much as *nix teaches someone how to use another *nix flavour. The person who picked up Windows 95 is not going to have trouble with WinXP, and the person who learned Unix ten years ago will pick up Ubuntu just fine today.

Much like we don't need to understand how a car works to use it, we can be perfectly productive computer users without knowing about the nitty gritty details. Would it help? Sure, sometimes, but we have to weigh the time spent learning those details against the time that could be spent learning other useful things (physics, perhaps?). Switching to *nix just to expose people to the internals of a computer OS isn't necessarily doing them any favours.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[thegrassyknowl]

If someone learned UNIX 10 years ago, they could pick up a modern Linux distro and have little trouble with it, if you take someone who learned Windows 98 and put them on a Vista system, they would be confused and have no clue how to do the most basic things.

Some will argue that's because Unix systems are backwards and do not incorporate the latest whiz-bang feature that users need today. I don't argue becuase Unix-y systems are built on a tried and true ideas that have mostly stood the test of time.

Microsoft buys into whatever they think will sell their OS in the short term - add a feature here, some eye candy there, make it incompatible with previous releases, so on. People are really forced to upgrade to if it they want to keep running Windows. Unix-y systems are less like that - at least the API is mostly porable across any one of them.

I'm just glad that someone is thinking about what MS is offering rather than just blindly accepting it as the holy grail of computers and paying their "tax"

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Bazman]

Because the idiots are winning, to quote Dan Ashcroft. We geeks may have spent the last 15 years telling people how Windows and proprietary software sucks so badly, yet still they buy it.

This week someone in my department had a problem reading and editing equations in a Word DOC file in OpenOffice. And then he tried genuine Microsoft Word and still had problems. Turned out the equations were done using 'Mathtype', some extra add-on for Word. "Doing it wrong!", I cried, "why is anyone writing papers chock-full of equations in Word anyway? Use LaTeX like everyone else in the department. It's free, it produces nicer papers, it is just beautiful."

So they asked for my advice, and it was 'use LaTeX'. What they did: buy more MathType licenses.

I'm thinking of starting a policy of not helping anyone who asks for tech support in our department and then does something else. I'm speccing up two labs with about 50 seats this week. I'm recommending 50 thin clients and 5 fat servers just to make it manageable. If the suit overrules this and says 'no, no, no, just put 50 desktop boxes in' then I'm not supporting it - to the extent of quitting the project. The idiots are not winning this one (although the servers will of course be running Win TS 2003 as well as Linux).

I'm not sure how we can stop the idiots from winning - MS will up their muscle in the fight, since they fatten up the idiots in order to feed off them. Or is it more like giving them free heroin and getting them hooked and then charging for the next fix. It's idiocy whatever way you cut it.

End of Sunday night before Monday Work Rant.

[Dan Ashcroft was a character in Nathan Barley...]

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?"

Because the school IT support is crap. Even by the usual low IT standards the people employed are poorly paid imbeciles. They are of lower ability than the sales guys at PC World. How do I know this? My sister is a teacher and I have to help her undone the stupid things they do to her laptop. One time they locked down the laptops so tightly that the users couldn't even save files into their own My Documents directory. The teachers are given laptops so they can take them home to do lesson plans and so forth on them. What the fuck is the point of having a laptop you can't save anything to. The laptops are not kept patched and a whole primary school gets a visit from an IT guy once every two weeks. So even when they are there they don't have time to half the things that need doing. Imagine how bad it is at a secondary school that has umpteen student using computers to visit myspace. Just the thought of that makes me shudder.

The current IT school people (outsourced or otherwise) couldn't cope with Linux and the government (local or central) sure isn't going to pay to get people that know what they are doing or retrain the ones they have.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[SamP2]

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows

No. Linux teaches students about Unix-like computers. Your statement only follows insofar that most popular non-Windows computers are Unix-like.

Linux tends to be used by more computer-savvy people than Windows, so it is no wonder that most Linux users would indeed feel comfortable around ANY OS. But just because a higher proportion of Linux people are smart with computers than Windows people, it does not follow that it is LINUX which provides that advantage. In other words, people use Linux because they are smart, NOT people are smart because they use Linux.

Imagine that you have two identical people who are equally interested or disinterested in computers, and train one in Linux (and NOTHING but Linux) and the other in Windows (and NOTHING but Windows), and assume they both don't care about anything else and won't do any research other than just use the system for basic tasks (so you don't have the Linux geek browsing tech sites while the Windows dork plays Solitaire all day).

Then take them both and put them infront of, say, an Apple OSX (nearest major mid-ground OS I can think of, it has Unix-like internals but more of Windows-like GUI). I fail to see the Linux guy have a substantial advantage over the Windows guy.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[ClubStew]

Now that's total BS. Copying files, starting applications, and typing text works the same on pretty much every machine. UI differences between Win98 and Vista are asthetic; dragging and dropping files works the same way. And vi?! Seriously. I love vim but it's hardly a good document publishing package. Where's the formatting kids see everyday in media?

Be serious and took an objective look at platforms. Basic operations are the same across platforms, and schools teach students how to use computers - not about computers. Most student will never need to know about 1s and 0s, what a bus is, etc. - they need to know how to use computers in the real works...that is running mostly on Windows anyway. And the educational software - as someone else pointed out above - is mostly written for Windows and Mac anyway.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[troicstar]

Students shouldn't have to learn vi in order to type out a book report

Just imagine if they did. perhaps they'd forgo the idiotic preocupation of font selection, color and layout that modern word processors distract our students with.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[wizardforce]

People think of their computer much like a toaster or their microwave. They have no idea how it works, they have no wish to know how it works anymore than they would their microwave. It's very disturbing really, that the vast majority of people have absolutely no idea how any part of their computer works... It is entirely due to everything being done for them. Look at how windows is normally set up- they don't need to know how to install it. If anything goes wrong they buy a new computer instead of fixing it. Windows software is bundled with the OS, Internet Explorer, Word, Excel etc. though most of those are trials which inevitably people end up buying MS office because they don't bother to find anything else. People like routine, even if they end up doing a lot more work in the end getting Windows to do what they want, it is what they know. No amount of scolding on we geek's part will change that unless something makes them realise the needless hassle they had to endure dealing with proprietary software. chances of that happening? If the EU actually starts kicking MS's ass once in a while that may actually happen. Not much of a chance of it happening here though.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[ILongForDarkness]

Hmm, the fact that *NIX hasn't changed in 10 years is supposed to be a good thing? The average user has become much more suffisicated. Eg, my beater PC ca 1998 has a 2 button mouse with a scroll wheel, that was the cool newish interface item at the time. Now people have more like 5 buttons on their mouse, twice as many USB devices (at least). The fact that the GUI paradigm for *NIXs has survived from 1984 is telling. *NIX historically has been computer focused not user focused. Run fast and stable and the user will want to figure it out.

Windows historically may have gone too much the other way, burn through performance, to make things pretty, and simple. If it is prettier on your system people will develop for it. Now they've moved that to the development paradigm as well with Visual Studio being JIT centric, and moves to replace MFC with .Net libraries.

Who will win? I'm voting for MS at least for another 10 years, the normal user will throw RAM and GHz at the problem, and have things pretty. They also probably will be willing to throw a few hundred every few years at MS for the latest and greatest, or pirate a copy. When computers were more of a hobby for the home user it was a pain to shell that out, but now that it is most people main entertainment and part of their work, it is easier to justify. It will be interesting who supports multi-core better in 10 years, historically the science and engineering folks were the ones writting concurrent/parallel apps.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[vic-traill]

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows.

I tried to deconstruct this sentence, and can't really get anywhere with it.

Operating systems are just that; systems software that facilitates the use and configuration of the hardware it is running on. I don't think that there is an inherent element within any OS which 'teaches' anything.

Obviously individuals develop preferences, and one's experience may even lead to a greater understanding of systems' architecture (or similar) using a particular OS. Certainly my experience was that using *nix of various flavours encouraged me to dig into elements of hardware and design more than using classic Mac OS did at the time. I don't think I would have ever started trying to write device drivers for NICs, or SLP drivers, if I had only been using a MAC (pre-OS X).

Before I get hammered by the Mac crowd for this comment, let me say that I don't think this was as a result of any shortcoming; rather, I believe that by *intention* using a Macintosh focused me as a user on the functional outcome I was trying to achieve, isolating me *by intention* from the internals below. That's fine - it's just one approach to structuring the user experience.

By contrast, the experience of obtaining and installing Slackware at the time made me very aware of the underlying system elements for interfacing with and using the hardware, and I suppose this is what the original poster may have been driving (sorry!) at - that using Linux leads to one being more informed about the systems architecture and interaction.

There's nothing sacred about this though - some people will argue that the point of using computers is to focus on the functional outcome desired, not learn how the underlying system is structured or works. I suspect that most folks on /. are interested in all these elements, but we're not typical users.

As for the ease of transition for Win98-->Vista vs. say SysV-->Ubuntu w/ gnome, I dunno if I buy this. Hell, trying to move people between kde and gnome has been known to start a war.

As for what all this has do do with why schools don't all use OSS, I'd say 'not much'. In the institution I work at, the main factors keeping OSS installation 'pocketed' rather than ubiquitous are custom software required to support faculty's curriculum on the academic side, and resistance to anything that doesn't say MS Office on the admin side.

I suspect that almost all software baked into curriculum (at least at the undergraduate level) has a reasonable OSS equivalent, but some (enough) faculty are strident in their resistant to change, and there is zero that the IT function can do about it.

Ironically, file portability/sharability led to the standardisation on MS Office in this institution; a potpourri of word processors but primarily WP were previously in use, but as MS marketing succeeded in selling Office, the critical mass of Word documents flowing in and out of the place ended up in a decree of Word only. Now the suggestion of using anything else leads to howls of outrage, and naturally MS continues to work to maintain complications of selling a switch via the Office Open XML specification.

It's not a money issue - the MS Campus agreement in use here keeps the annual cost of license upgrades for OS and Office plus other misc apps low enough that there isn't a big enough dollar saving available to make a compelling business case for the switch, particularly in light of the knee-jerk opposition to any such change.

All that being said, OSS gets big time play in the institution's back-end services, and there are pockets of energized evangelists. The biggest push on the desktop I see within the institution is not related to OSS, but rather to OS X. Fifty percent of student notebooks coming through the door are running OS X, and there is a growing faculty contingent running OS X as well.

I think the change is more likely to be from Windows to OS X, if anything. Small mercies, I suppose - at least it is Unix. But the licensing is just a switch from one big corp to another.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[rmerry72]

Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows

And that in a nutshell is the point. People don't want to learn about computers. People / students want to learn the skills needed to get a job and business wants people to use Windows not understand computers. Only IT professionals need to learn about computers for their jobs - and unfortunately a lot of them still only know how to use a computer.

Obligatory car analogy: A driving school may not teach you how to maintain, fix nor build your car. It teaches you how to drive it. Ordinary people don't want to understand cars, they just want to drive them. Understanding how cars works is for mechanics.

Now I'm a geek like most here and I want to learn how something works as I use it. Helps me use it better and fix it when it breaks down (and it always does). Enquiring minds want to know. Most humans aren't that way inclined. They just want to use stuff and don't care how it works. When it breaks they get another one or yell at somebody who does understand until it works. "Users" is such and apt term for most humans.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[ko9]

Speaking from experience, a person who can use Word 97 will have little difficulty adapting to Word 2007, nor will they have much difficulty using OpenOffice for all of the basic stuff that 95% of us use it for.

Sadly you chose a poor example, instead you should use Word 2003. From 2003 to 2007 is actually a huge step interface-wise, and I have seen a lot of people getting confused by the new Office 2007 look, when they were used to the old one.

On a more personal note, I think the new interface is actually a step up, it is the only product I know of where MS has taken a radical approach and faced their own mistakes in user interface design to redo it from scratch. I find it to be more intuitive to work with than the older versions, which required the user to know X toolbars of N buttons with obscure icons on them. Never having been able to get along with word processors before, I find it refreshing to see a new, more thought-through approach. Of course, it takes a while to get used to it, but everyone here seems to agree with me that that shouldn't be a concern, so long as the product is better ;-)

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Oriumpor]

I'd rather schools spend money on tubas and cello's than on Windows. Besides teaching kids linux doesn't make a lick of sense. Teaching kids how to solve their own problems... well that will help them with every topic, not just computers. What better environment to teach that then Linux, where all (or nearly all) you need to know is at your fingertips without needing incredibly expensive software (for the most part) and all the headaches that come with managing hardware/windows zombie machines.

IMO (as a former Sys admin for a large school district for many years):
Dumb terminals on centralized hardware for 80% of students (pick your *nix) for the other 20% purpose built systems (desktop publishing, video production, school administration, etc.)

Use the "right" (read: required) software in places where absolutely necessary, and use free*nix everywhere else. One exception to this might be RHEL as it's nearly free at $50 a site license.

Still, schools have to think about money just as much as anyone else. In reality, gaining 70-100 large in MS Licensing you don't have to pay yearly is nice start.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[JFitzsimmons]

Because MathType lets you just click some buttons and insert mathematical equations into Word. If you already have Word and mathematical experience, your downtime is approximately 30 seconds. To deploy LaTeX however, you have to learn an entire typesetting language, from scratch, with a significantly poorer interface (text file). And then you have to 'compile' your file into something before you can observe the results. No wonder they spent the couple hundred mathtype licences; how many man hours would be lost training everyone to use LaTeX?

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Lesrahpem]

We're reaching a point where cross-platform applications are becoming much more common than they were 10 years ago. In many cases popular software has versions for Windows, Mac, and Linux, all of which generally work the same way and have the same features on each respective OS.

I think schools should take advantage of this and focus on using cross-platform software in the classroom whenever possible. Doing so almost guarantees that students will be able to use the same software at home that they use at school (no matter what OS they use at home). It also means that students who need to use a computer with an unfamiliar OS will still be able to get work done since the program(s) they are used to using will likely be available for that OS.

I worked as an instructor in the computer lab of a Boys and Girls Club for a few years, and this is about what I did. Ten computers in the lab had Windows 2k Professional on them, and a wide range of lower ends computers had Linux on them. I made sure all of the computers, regardless of OS, had Open Office, Firefox, Gaim (now pidgin), Thunderbird, Abiword, Gimp, and VideoLAN on them. I taught the children (ages ranging from 6 to 18) how to use the programs and the differing operating systems were never really a problem. Since all of the software was open source I was also able to give them all CD's which they could use to install the software at home or wherever else. In doing so, I made sure that our choice of operating systems did not negatively impact their education. I think schools need to do the same.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Technician]

a person who can use Word 97 will have little difficulty adapting to Word 2007

Oh great smart one, having been stuck using the wrong printer, is there a way in Word 2007 to select a printer other than the default? We have a Vista Machine and are still resorting to changing the default printer to change printers. Somethings are not easly found in Word 2007. It's my Wife's machine. I had to do a Google search to find you use the big round Icon in the upper left corner to find the print menu.
http://oit.montclair.edu/documentationpdf/Word_2007_Intro.pdf

In any other GUI word processor Windows and otherwise, finding the print menu is easy and mostly in the same place.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[flyingfsck]

I studied UNIX post grad in 1987. I only started using it in 1996 - nine years later. So I totally agree with your assertion.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[value_added]

You are correct that Windows teaches someone how to use Windows, much as *nix teaches someone how to use another *nix flavour. The person who picked up Windows 95 is not going to have trouble with WinXP, and the person who learned Unix ten years ago will pick up Ubuntu just fine today.

I think this is true only for very small values of true. Yes, Windows teaches someone how to use Windows, but chances are high that years later they will, if bright and attentive, accumulated a collection of Windows-specific trivia (mostly interface-specific) and nothing more.

By contrast, someone "who learned Unix ten years ago", or even last year, is unlikely within their first few months of learning not to have, at the very least, a familiarity with the fundamentals of what a computer is and how it works. That's knowledge that extends past a single operating system and relevant outside of the fool's notion of a computer as "a tool". In fact, I'd bet that most point-and-click novice Ubuntu users, for example, have a basic understanding of what a kernel is, what code is, how memory is used, file systems, rights and permissions, basic IO, networking, etc., etc. From there, their learning is limited only by their motivation and imagination. I'd even go so far as to say that it would take a undue effort to avoid learning when everything is documented, logical, transparent, historically consistent, and unambiguously presented to the user at every turn.

Seems to me that dismissing any of this as unimportant or characterising it as a bunch of "nitty gritty details" is tantamount to saying learning to use a technology that's become (and will continue to be) a major part of everyone's lives, and is used (and will be continue to be used) daily at work and at home by just about everyone in the industrialised world, is of negligible value. It also suggests that such issues as a skilled and employed work force, patents, copyrights, and the destructive effects of monopoly power aren't real social or political concerns, but mere annoyances.

What is it, I wonder, that we should be teaching our kids? Show them how to press the image of a button, because someone else worked out the button part? If that's the case, then I say we should skip Physics as well. Why invest the time and effort to learn Physics, when it's more efficient if not easier to wait for someone to put the principles, knowledge and study into practical use? We can then just buy the product on the shelf when it's available for sale.

Like software from Microsoft.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Bee1zebub]

TeXaide uses an almost identical menu system to MathType and is gratis. there are WYSIWIG LaTeX environments, but given that you can do most reports using the templates which came with your distro and a few commands (enumerate, list, and description environments for lists, figure, and table, the sectioning commands (which are very intuitive), and a few others). Jabref + BibTeX handles bibliographies with far less effort than word needs, and needs no knowledge of whatever format you are required to use.
When I first used LaTeX, it was working through TeXnic Center, and I had at that time no no programming experience, and yet I was able to produce a scientific report with a lot of equations, tables [*], and figures with less effort than if I had used word. It does not take long to learn the commonly used commands. The TeXnic Center help is very good, since it includes most of the major packages, and links to CTAN.

* To be honest, tables are a PITA if you need to do anything fancy.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Zonk (troll)]

Because MathType lets you just click some buttons and insert mathematical equations into Word. So does OpenOffice. In OpenOffice just hit "Insert"->"Object"->"Formula". It's quite easy to use and has a very large set of options. I haven't used Word in a while, but I think I remember Word 2000 having something similar. I have no idea which is better or how it compares to MathType, but it's really a good idea to try using the features of your software before relying on some addon.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Bazman]

The problem is that a short-sighted decision will come back to bite you. In this case, the user is now causing inter-operability problems with most of our department who are LaTeX users because of LaTeX's superior quality. As their bibliography builds they'll need EndNote licenses. If they want to work with other people they're going to need some sort of collaborative authoring solution that deals with Word and all its change log stuff. With LaTeX you get BiBTeX for free and can do your collaboration with SVN.

I've argued this with people in the past, and they just go, 'yeah, but I just want to click "X" and then "squared"'. In the future I shall say "fine, you do that, you're Doing It Wrong, and if you want help I will tell you how to Do It Right, and that will be LaTeX".

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[howlingmadhowie]

no, no, no. terribly and fundamentally flawed.

the purpose of a school is not to teach pupils the small subset of skills found in the intersection of skill sets needed for every job, but to teach pupils to think and understand how the world works. what you're thinking about is a community college.

it would make a lot more sense to teach pupils at schools how network packets are built, how a register or stack machine works, how an executable file is loaded and turned into a process, how paging algorithms work etc. etc. this is the knowledge which will grant the pupil an innate understanding in computing and information technology.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[iangoldby]

I'm thinking of starting a policy of not helping anyone who asks for tech support in our department and then does something else.

Well, I've often thought that people who don't like having their advice rejected simply should never give advice.

Feel free of course to ignore this suggestion. ;-)

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[ewanm89]

So you have an Apple xserve and a xserve RAID, now it doesn't come up properly... Someone logs on before it manages to get mounted... now windows guy has just fallen down at having mount points within directory tree, Linux guy just has to find the option in the GUI... Answer Linux wins, this is a trues story, it also took apple engineers a week to fix the same problem.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[TeknoHog]

That's not true at all. There are people (generally speaking) who learn by figuring things out for themselves, and there are people who learn by memorizing procedures. Those who figure things out for themselves will have no trouble going from Windows to any other OS, especially not another Windows OS. Those who memorize procedures will be just as confused going from Linux to anything else as they would be going from Windows to Linux. The weak link here is the people, it has nothing to do with the environment they use.

Though I'm the kind of person who likes to figure things out anyway, I've found that Linux actually encourages you to figure out stuff on your own. When I switched to Linux, after a week of using it I felt I've learned more about computers (in general, not just Linux) than in the preceding years of using DOS and Windows. The tools you use do make a difference (speaking as a physics teacher).

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[mister_woods]

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

There are a couple of reasons why not, as follows:.

1. Firstly, there are a lot of people who do IT support who'd be out of work if they had something as reliable as a Linux system, which needs very little looking after in comparison to Windows, which seems to break every 5 minutes;
2. Secondly, there are the teaching staff: they sometimes have even less IT expertise than the kids they are supposed to be teaching. They have a tendency to feel very uncomfortable with anything unfamiliar.
3. Finally, those in charge of educational policy have determined that IT lessons schools should turn out a generation of MS mouse monkeys, not students who are IT literate: the rot starts long before the classroom.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

You're fired. I'll hire a technician who listens to the needs and desires of his users, and not to his own ego about "the ONE TRUE WAY".

This is an attitude that I personally find very annoying within the Open Source movement. While I realize that these are volunteers (and I am one of them) contributing to projects, there are some people out there who just cannot seem to grasp that I have neither the time nor the inclination to learn yet another language, for yet another software package, just to get my day to day work done.

For sake of comparison, approximately 50% of my work is in documenting system designs and technical annotations. Now, I have to read and understand C, C++, C#, VB, VBA, JavaScript, (X)HTML, CSS, programmer scribbles, and XML, among other sources, just to work up the docs. As it is, I keep a pocket reference handy for each of those languages. If I have to stop my work to look up how to do something like a complex table layout in a source language system just to get my work done, then I will stick with the tools that allow me to get my work done without lookups and references not related directly to that work.

The menus, options, dialogs, prompts, and other graphical goodies of a WYSIWYG editor are there so that I do not have to learn to program just to do my job.

Just because you prefer to use LaTeX to do your layouts does not make it the right tool for me, or from what I have seen, for most people in general business.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I take exception to your post....

Anyway, you're talking a load of horseshit, physicist or not. Have you ever seen someone try to move from 98 to Vista. I have. Not exactly a "smooth process". Same goes for word 97 to 2007.

Oh, and while you're standing there on your soap box you might want observe the crowd. They're not all physicists. Frankly, you are being offended by nothing. The parent was aiming his statements at students who MIGHT WANT TO BE I.T. PROFESSIONALS.

It is akin to being in a science lab and only learning only one subject superficially for your education life. You would know nothing of science at all other than one subject, and even that you wouldn't know well.

So maybe next time, instead of "taking exception" to someone's post, think before you react. Just because you're a physicist doesn't mean you're a thinker.

To be on topic though, I do believe that there should be at the bare minimum a 35/35/30 (linux/mac/windows) ratio for schools. If not higher. To teach people only one form of computing is just stupid.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who spent 15 minutes writing 3 pages of equations yesterday here are my two cents:

Lyx is doing it the right way, OO.o is close, but still needs to do better, Microsoft Equation(down played version of mathtype) is horrible because users don't know the shortcuts unless they search for them, and most of them never search, so they end up doing one letter on the keyboard and moving the mouse.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some more equations to type...

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Nerdposeur]

"In fact, I'd bet that most point-and-click novice Ubuntu users, for example, have a basic understanding of what a kernel is, what code is, how memory is used, file systems, rights and permissions, basic IO, networking, etc., etc."

That's great, and very useful, I'm sure. But it's still computer science. Look, I chose my username for a reason - I don't have tons of geek cred. I can write some HTML and CSS, I remember making batch programs in DOS, and I'm pretty quick to pick up tricks on the computer. I've got a job in cell phone tech support and I do intranet design as part of my job. In my office, that makes me the #2 geek (after the networking guy).

But I don't know what a kernel is. I know very little about networking. I know how to find files, but I don't know what the various file systems are about. I'm not saying that stuff isn't useful, but it ISN'T essential to my job, and certainly not to the jobs of most of the people in my office, who can get by with web and word processing.

You're talking about mechanics and engineering when most people just need a driver's license. Yes, they're both useful, but they are separate fields of study, and not all students need, or are able, to learn the mechanics.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm recommending 50 thin clients and 5 fat servers just to make it manageable."

Use 50 semifat clients (use the CPU power in each client) and 1 server running
Skolelinux (Debian-Edu).
Fewer harddisks - Less trouble :-)

http://www.skolelinux.org/en/node/9

www.skolelinux.org

Just works - Download burn and install.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[i.r.id10t]

The "right way" would be to actually teach basic concepts and skills, and it shouldn't matter what software you use. Under File you always have save, open, new, quit, print, under Edit you always have cut copy paste, etc. Need to make it bold? Look for a formatting menu, etc.

However, based on my experience working at a community college, the cry is " employers can only buy office 2007 now, so thats what they want our grads to know"...

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[spacemanspiff18]

To deploy LaTeX however, you have to learn an entire typesetting language, from scratch, with a significantly poorer interface (text file). I strongly disagree with you here. The text file interface is infinitely simpler and more flexible than a complicated GUI. People, when writing, will envision an infinity of different final products. The text file is about the *only* interface that copes well with that kind of diversity of intents.

Another advantage to the text file is its portability. No more garbling if I try to open my document on a machine with a different OS or software. And I can use any editor I like to make changes.

Not to say that a GUI layer over something like LaTeX is never useful to anyone. But it continues to amaze me that so many people argue that a cryptic file format that can only be edited through a complex GUI is the best way to write.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

The average user has become much more suffisicated.

Shame his spelling hasn't improved.

The fact that the GUI paradigm for *NIXs has survived from 1984 is telling.

Exactly. It shows that it was more or less right from the beginning.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Bert64]

Those students who won't get computer related jobs should still learn concepts rather than applications...
When i was at school, we used several different word processing apps and spreadsheets on 4 different platforms (riscos, dos, windows 3.x, mac) and the end result is that i know what options i need and what they should do, so that if i pick up a new application i can fairly quickly find the equivalent options and get the job done.
People who were only taught a single app typically know exactly where to find the option in that one app, and would be stuck using something else if the options were in a different location or behaved slightly differently.
Also, the apps that I was taught in school, while being relevant apps at the time, are nowhere to be seen, so anyone who has skills only in those apps is pretty screwed now.

For this reason, schools should have a selection of different apps, and teach students how to get the job done regardless of the tools. Get kids used to the differences, and focus them on the task they need to do not on any specific tool they could use.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Mathinker]

> In fact, I'd bet that most point-and-click novice Ubuntu users, for example, have a basic understanding of what a kernel is,
> what code is, how memory is used, file systems, rights and permissions, basic IO, networking, etc., etc.

Thanks for the good belly laugh. I see you've never met my wife and children.

This is one reason people are paying more attention to Ubuntu and similar easy-to-use distros. Non-geeks are able to use them, relatively painlessly.

I will agree with you if what you mean is that the vast majority of Linux users have a knowledgeable geek lurking somewhere nearby (usually the person who installed it).

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Bazman]

I don't recommend LaTeX because it's open source, I recommend it because it is the right tool for the job we do - math, math, and more math. If I recommend someone hit a nail with a hammer and they do it with a screwdriver and cut their finger, why should I have to mop the blood up?

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

'Because the school IT support is crap'

Often true, 2 reasons -

1) Very poor pay
2) Schools are often misguided or arrogant in believing they can appoint IT staff without having sufficient IT knowledge to judge a candidate or have such a suitable person on the interview panel.

Schools often get what they deserve.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Hic sunt leones]

While I agree that:

The person who picked up Windows 95 is not going to have trouble with WinXP, and the person who learned Unix ten years ago will pick up Ubuntu just fine today.

The point that others, I believe, were getting at is that a person who learned Unix would probably have a lot less trouble picking up Windows, than someone who learned Windows and then tried to pick up Unix.

The main problem is that Unix is a lot more versatile an operating system than the Microsoft offerings.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's always the same: people don't want to take two hours a day for two weeks to learn something new. Rather they lose thirty seconds on each single equation they ever have to insert.

Of course, if you have to do that only once or twice in your whole life, it isn't that bad - but then you don't need that skill at all. If, on the other hand, your job entails you having regularly typing equations, you better learn LaTeX.

But that is a moot point, anyway, because there is LyX, which makes creating good-looking LaTeX-documents even easier than creating crappy-looking MS Word-documents.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[businessnerd]

You've done a great thing and it is something that I would like to see more schools do. My father was recently elected to the school board in the district where I was educated from Kindergarten all the way through High School. During a recent board meeting, they were discussing week areas. I had dropped by to visit my parents about a week later and my father took the opportunity to ask me about what technology improvements could be made, or where the school was week technologically. While it's been almost six years since graduating from High School, it was hard to address this school specifically, but I did have one major point I wanted to push:

Teach kids how to use computers, not how to use specific software.

This means you don't teach kids how to use MS Office, you teach them how to use a word processor, a spreadsheet, etc. I was fortunate to be going to school in the district in the middle of the Apple -> Microsoft switch. My first experience with a computer in school was the Apple IIgs. It was the IIgs that I learned how to type on. Later they refreshed to Macs and I learned how to use spreadsheets, word processors, presentation software, and even a small scale personal database. A few years later the whole district went MS, but the transition was easy. In fact it made learning MS Office so much easier because I already new what I could achieve, it was just about figuring out the steps to take.

My suggestion is to have a diverse computing environment. Not just Windows, not just Linux, and not just Mac. All three. Scattered everywhere in a non-organized manner. A Mac next to Linux next to Windows all in the same lab even. Maybe more specialized placement where the art department has more Macs.

One of the best arguments I have come up with, especially when talking to someone from the business world about teaching technological diversity, it the E-Mail example. While becoming dated, it goes like this: If you look at job postings, especially for administrative work, you see things like "Must know MS Outlook" or "Must have experience with Lotus Notes". These being two of the major office communication tools out there. Well which do you choose? Right now the choice might be obvious, but how do you know that by the time the students are in the job market, they will still even be using that application. Don't teach them a specific application, teach them how to use a class of applications.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[nmg196]

> If someone learned UNIX 10 years ago, they could pick up a
> modern Linux distro and have little trouble with it

I strongly disagree. In my experience, someone that current experience with a certain Linux distro can easily have a very difficult time learning the basics on another Linux distro! The distributions and desktop environments available are all very different. On windows, everything remains pretty much the same as it was in Windows 95. If you knew how to schedule a task in Windows 95, then it's very likely that you could it on XP or Vista without needing any help. The same is hardly true of Linux where things like scheduling tasks usually has to be done from the command line.

> if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration, they could be an
> entry-level sysadmin for a small company, while the other student would
> be more or less a data entry clerk

Rubbish. The whole point is that on Windows you do not *NEED* to be a software developer to accomplish basic tasks that most Linux sysadmins need to do. Windows either already does what you want, or you can buy a program for a few dollars which will do it only using mouse clicks in half an hour. I bet you most handsomely paid sysadmins in the Windows world do not know how to write a website. Why spend ages writing scripts when there is so much software already available for Windows which is already fully developed and tested by other companies.

I recently tried to build a Linux mail server. After about two days of fidding around downloading patches to get the (basic) features I wanted, compiling, fixing problems, editing config files, patching, more compiling, I soon realised that it would be unmaintainable and some really basic features like webmail were still not working correctly. For a about $100 I purchased some Windows software which achieved the same thing. It was up and running in about 15 minutes and has been working perfectly ever since.

As I saw recently in someone's signature: "Linux is only free if your time has no value"

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[JasonWM]

Because the people that pay the bills were all brought up or exist in exactly the same situation that you describe. Fear of the unknown is a very powerful motivation to them.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen our children?

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Trogre]

I don't know. Is it anything like the number of man hours we've spent here trying to recover Word documents that have had their formatting screwed up by MathType?

LaTeX is to MathType about as Blender is to MS Paint - a steeper learning curve and initially intimidating, but produces much better results and is more likely to give you what you want.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Trogre]

After having used both for some time, let's just say that this is a rare case where OOo one puts MSO to shame. You can just type "y=(3x^3) over 2x" and the OOo formula editor will parse it for you. And you get all the little clickies to tidy it up.

Oh, and it does MathML perfectly.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[hoskeri]

There is only one difference between a geek/nerd and the normal person: curiosity. Nerds consider it a bug in themselves when they don't know something, anything.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[jc42]

Students shouldn't have to learn vi in order to type out a book report, ... The computer is a tool, something to make things easier, ... we don't need to understand how a car works to use it, ... Switching to *nix just to expose people to the internals of a computer OS isn't necessarily doing them any favours.

This is a rather odd argument to come from a physicist. WTF are you doing studying the low-level working of the universe? You don't need to understand the universe. You just need to use it as a tool. Let some nerdy fellow of in some lab worry about the universe; go live your life in ignorance of such things.

I mean, consider that we're talking about the UK's school system here. The whole purpose of a school system is to teach their students about stuff. Arguing that "students don't need to understand anything, they just need to use it" is arguing against the very reason that school systems exist.

This is an argument that one expects to hear in a corporate/industrial setting, where management usually just wants people to blindly do one job, and not waste time learning about anything but the one widget that they're responsible for. In a school setting, however, it's a profoundly wrong-headed approach.

In today's world, a person really needs to know more than the bare minimum to get by in the world. It helps a lot if you understand a bit about how a car or stove or plumbing system or computer or government (or universe ;-) actually works. And it's the job of the schools to impart understanding to the students. If they don't do this, why do we even bother having schools?

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[PhysicsPhil]

This is a rather odd argument to come from a physicist. WTF are you doing studying the low-level working of the universe? You don't need to understand the universe. You just need to use it as a tool. Let some nerdy fellow of in some lab worry about the universe; go live your life in ignorance of such things.

I mean, consider that we're talking about the UK's school system here. The whole purpose of a school system is to teach their students about stuff. Arguing that "students don't need to understand anything, they just need to use it" is arguing against the very reason that school systems exist.

There is some merit to your argument (and similar arguments from several others), but as you point out, we're talking about the UK school system. My post was originally a response to someone arguing that just having the schools teach basic computer skills was a disservice to the students, and that they would be much better served by learning PHP, Perl and Server Administration so that at least they could be entry-level sysadmins at a small company.

I think that this is a great disservice to students. We want schools to train children to be useful and productive members of society, not just train a new generation of computer professionals. Does a journalist need to use PHP (or vi to write stories)? Does an accountant need to know about server administration? Does a carpenter need to program Perl? No, and spending a lot of time teaching high-level computer skills to these people instead of teaching good grammar and numeracy doesn't help them all that much.

As I said, I'm a physicist, and most of my time is spent studying semiconductor processing technology rather than the low-level workings of the universe. Do I use a computer? Of course. But I don't do very much programming any more except as a hobby. I use a computer for data collection and analysis, examining trends in time series. I also use it to connect to electronic journals and to sent email to colleagues and collaborators. In other words, I use the computer as a tool, replacing the postal system and the slide rule of 50 years ago. For the physicists that do need computers for serious stuff, they learn in university rather than having it as core curriculum in elementary school.

Training children to use computers is certainly a good thing. We need them to operate in the modern world. But I'll state again that computers are just fancy tools. We should remember that just as schools are not in the basis of training carpenters, they also aren't solely in the business of training programmers. The skills they teach have to be relevant to everyone, and putting a deep focus on computer skills is no better than leaving computers off the curriculum completely.

Re:Why haven't schools switched to all Linux?

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

My apologies, then, I misinterpreted your message. Perhaps in the context of your work, LaTeX is the right tool for the job.

My point, however, is still valid in the context of having the hammer and recommending it for every job. That attitude is very prevalent, and not limited to the Open Source world. I am a believer in the "right tool for the job, and sometimes there is more than one right tool" approach.

I think that an extension of your analogy would clarify my point:

I am a carpenter, a domain expert in my work, and I already know that I need a specific hammer to do a job right. When I go to the hardware store, and ask for that type of hammer, the salespeople suggest every manner of screwdriver, ratchet, and other tool, but no one can answer the question "where are the hammers". One of them does show me where I can get raw steel blocks, blocks of wood, and hand tools to make my own hammer. Being a carpenter, I could easily make the handle, and I could probably find a metalsmith who could forge the head. None of that, however, solves my immediate problem: I have a job with deadlines to meet, and I need a hammer. I do not have the time nor inclination to make my own, I do not want to attempt to drive a nail with a screwdriver.

From the standpoint of the schools, Linux is starting to become the tool for the job. Distributions like Edubuntu are fitting the role nicely, even though they might be a ball-peen when a claw hammer would do a bit better, they are at least a hammer. The claw hammer, in this case, comes with a clause that you can only use it to drive certain nails, and that limitation makes it unsuitable for the job. No one else makes the claw hammer necessary at the price they are willing to pay (one company makes a gold plated claw hammer with a pearl inlaid handle, but the cost is prohibitive at this time).

Ubuntu has the right idea. Build what the customers (that word has fallen out of vogue, I know) want. It is time to take a step back, look at who your customers are, and bring back the adage that rampant corporatism has driven from our minds: the customer is number one. If your customer is yourself, then by all means, do whatever you like with your hardware and software. If, however, you want others to use and find useful your tool, then you have to know who you are building it for and what they want. It does no good whatsoever to tell them what they want, you must listen.

This concludes my "What am I doing awake so early in the day" rant.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[NoodleSlayer]

And if you had simply RTF Summary, not even RTFA, you would have noted that the issue is not whether or not to use Windows, but the draconian, monopolistic terms that Microsoft tries to force on schools with their educational subscription licensing models. The idea that they force schools to buy licenses for every single machine regardless of whether or not it is running Microsoft software is just this side of extortion, and BECTA was simply pointing out that it is not in a school's best interest to sign such terms, and should opt instead for the normal perpetual license that people purchase. Not over whether or not to use Windows (and Office in this case too), at least not in the short term.

Since when is Microsoft the law?

[tomhudson]

> "The problem was that Microsoft required schools to have licenses for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else."

Microsoft can't "require" this. Same as the BSA or CAAST can't just show up at your doorstep and "require" anything. Not even a "license audit."

Good for Becta.

Re:Since when is Microsoft the law?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same as the BSA or CAAST can't just show up at your doorstep and "require" anything. Not even a "license audit."

They can and do if you license the software. Read your license. You gave permission. In attempting to revoke the license, I am dropping the software licenses which grant permission.

Re:Since when is Microsoft the law?

[Richard W.M. Jones]

They can and do if you license the software. Read your license. You gave permission. In attempting to revoke the license, I am dropping the software licenses which grant permission.

That may or may not be true for schools. It's certainly not true for consumers, since consumer rights laws in Europe are much stronger than in the US. Unfair clauses and ones that you didn't have the chance to negotiate are automatically discarded. See for example: http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/before_you_buy/think_of/unfair-contracts

Rich.

Re:Since when is Microsoft the law?

[fwarren]

Microsoft can't "require" this. Same as the BSA or CAAST can't just show up at your doorstep and "require" anything. Not even a "license audit."

Which is why, often before even contacting you, they go to a judge and get a court order. Then they just show up with the Federal Marshals and the warrent.

At that point, it is rather moot wheather you think they can or can not require this. If you resist, you are arrested.

Re:Since when is Microsoft the law?

[tomhudson]

The can NOT just walk in without your permission. If they do, call the cops. Like everyone else, they need to make an appointment, they need to be supervised/escorted while on the premises, they need to sign an NDA, etc. If they don't, they have abused their license, and THEY are the ones who are at fault.

Heck, people don't have any brains any more. A city inspector showed up at my place one day - I tersely told him that he was wasting both of our time, that I knew the source of the"complaint" was a disgruntled neighbor, and to leave and only come back with a court order and a couple of cops to back it up, if he really wanted to waste everyone's time. He left, and that was the end of it.

Similarly at work, unless they have warrants, they're not getting in. Its a question of principle - you don't treat honest people like convicted crooks, and the BSA / CAAST do exactly that. People have this idea that "honest people have nothing to hide ..." News flash - honest people don't like being treated like convicted criminals. Its insulting.

People have known about Microsoft's abuses for decades - if you're still running large segments of your business using Microsoft products, you have only yourself to blame for perpetuating the current situation, since there ARE alternatives.

Re:Since when is Microsoft the law?

[tomhudson]

Gee, it would be fun to see them try that in Canada ...

... or any other free, law-abiding country ...

In Soviet Amerika Microsoft runs YOU!

Here's a start

[zogger]

Kid's Open Source Linux OS software,bleeding edge

Then there's this

WTF??

[dupup]

required schools to have licenses for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else

wankers

Re:WTF??

[Daimanta]

I love the fact that the word wankers can result in a +1 Informative.

Idiots.

From TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK computer agency Becta is advising schools not to sign licensing agreements with Microsoft because of alleged anti-competitive practices.
[snip]
A Microsoft spokesperson said: "We want to reassure our customers, partners and the education sector that it is business as usual."

Indeed...

Re:From TFA

[El Lobo]

Exactly. I am one of the software responsibles in my department at a large university of Sweden. We have 2 agreements with MS, one with Adobe, one with Apple, one with Symantec, one with Marratech, to chose from. And nobody obligates you to sign any of them. Hell, I know 2 departments that are 100% apple and one that is 100% solaris. My department is now using Microsoft Campus agreement and the prices are very human, actually (and not THAT scary like the Apple agreement, may I add, but that my friends is another story).

Re:From TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

I love reading all of this Slash Dot stuff-so anti MS. Does anyone in the world not see Google or Apple's monopolistic deal with ATT for the I-Phone and make somewhere around $800.00 US on each phone? MS is bad? Why do they have to share codecs and noone else has to? Why did MS develope the C languages when Sun would not license Java so MS could rewrite code? Why does Adobe not license products directly to MS for Windows. Get off your MS hate High Horses and express the truth of the computing world- It is ALL about big business, big money and killing the competition. PERIOD. I have 3 desktops and a laptop with: Vista, XP Pro 64, SUSE,Debian and Mac.And the easiest to use and learn? ta dah::::: XP PRO so get over MS and get on with your little squirrely lives. Bash Bush, Chavez, Putin, Ahmanijad, Morales,or whoever else and change the world instead of complaining about non-issue companies

Re:From TFA

[Helix666]

"Why did MS develope the C languages"

Wait... what?
"C is a general-purpose, block structured, procedural, imperative computer programming language developed in 1972 by Dennis Ritchie at the Bell Telephone Laboratories for use with the Unix operating system."
Wikipedia.org (Yeah, yeah, I know.)

"Microsoft first introduced an operating environment named Windows in November 1985..."
Also Wikipedia.

"MS-DOS was originally released in 1981..."
Wikipedia again.

Either you don't have a clue, or I missed the point.

Re:From TFA

[nosferatu1001]

I think he / she believed "C#" to be the first C language, or else he was an idiot and forgot to add the "#" :)

Either way, he seems to not understand the difference between a Monopoly and any other company, and that a monopoly has to follow different rules. It is simply part of their charter and they have to deal with it, or else split themselves down so they no longer constitute a monopoly. Simple....except MS have so far completlely failed to uphold their end. So much so that the DOJ should have actually enforced their rulling, and did a 'Bell on MS.

However, it's an AC, so not sure why I've wasted my time!

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most schools I work depend mostly on crap from RM, and if lucky the admin can buy some shit like Dell. E-learning credits to blame...

The machines bought have always had older hardware for their time, and are a nightmare to administer. Made even worse that as ad admin there is no decent install cds - all restore discs. great.

Many of these places I`m probably the only person that is aware of licensing and paying for each install etc... but unless it's some shit sent in by one of the many education software companies to review it's near on impossible to get permission to get money released. Had to laugh when we needed a server license for a network file share (cos xp max 10 limit) when all the old 95/98 did it anyway.

rant rant rant too jaded but it's all bollocks in education over here. I just can`t imagine a situation where IT would install an OS wide spread without a hardware change. Education was better off with old computers before all this funding started getting mis spent. Spending most of my times filling holes and fixing stupid crap rather than developing.

yadda yadda yadda

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've not found Dell much better from a support point of view to be honest, it just has it's flaws in different areas.

RM's products are crap and overpriced, they try to mangle their products into the OS which is always doomed to fail when the OS is closed source. What they should really be doing is building extensions for the OS that sit on top of it if they really insist on using Windows still because the current situation with the whole plethora of available RM front ends is that they try to make administration easy for teachers by mangling their front end into the OS when in fact what they end up doing is screwing up the OS causing more, harder to solve problems for the user. The good side about RM is their support is top notch, an British call centre that answers the phone in no time at all and an international award winning technical support site. This is where Dell fails miserably, support. I've been on the phone an hour before waiting to get through to them to report two laptop hardware faults only to get through to be asked questions like "What's the error message" after telling them the screen is faulty. On top of that after finally getting them to honour the warranty by sending someone out to repair it I go to report the next laptop and am told I can't report more than one per call and have to call back and wait another hour to report the next one.

I guess it depends what you're after, with RM it's expensive and has it's flaws but you do get the best support there is when it comes to resolving the issue - for us they've been very flexible too for example they've been willing to repair things out just out of warranty, they've been willing to send us new laptop keyboards to fit when teachers have spilt coffee on them or kids have pulled keys off them and so forth and it's that that despite RMs other flaws that I like about them. They have a support attitude that dates back to the 90s when you could actually get decent support from some companies and when they were willing to bend over backwards on some faults to sort you out. The biggest shame is that RM isn't simply a hardware reseller like Dell offering support and training for plain old Windows (or even Linux) networks because if they were they could drop their prices due to losing the R&D costs of their crappy front end whilst offering a support service that blew everyone else's out of the water.

The fact is with regards to Dell, many schools simply can't afford to have their staff or the support staff that cost x amount per hour waiting on the phone for 3hrs to Dell or whoever. RM at least gives them a fighting chance at looking after themselves and that's why it's so popular in schools, primary schools in particular need to be wrapped in cotton wall for this type of thing so they can concentrate on the important bit - teaching. That doesn't mean however competition for RM wouldn't be good and I do feel Becta let them off with too much of a stranglehold over UK schools, competition is always a good thing.

Re:Huh?

[nosferatu1001]

As I'm friends with (and briefly went out with, as in 2 dates before we decided we were better as friends) someone who used to develop software for RM, I have to agree in some parts.

They do have superb support, even if needs be speaking to my friend (which he hated; if it was in person he had to wear a suit, instead of normal programmers wear ;) ) and getting him to write a custom fix for your problem (which would then get bundled into the next release)

They do try to be ambitious; for example did you know there is a 32bit limit for the number of objects in an AD forest? NOT 32bit per tree, either, the ENTIRE forest! Now RM want to have the entire UK (starting with Scotland, iirc) schools system on a single AD forest; every teacher, pupil, parent and governor would have an account. This alone took them over this limit - their answer was to get MS to change the code, and write a 64bit version for them. They actually have a fair amount of pull, so "closed source" or not when youre a big customer you can get things changed. Not as efficiently as if it were open soutce, bt still...

As for the stranglehold - they speciliase in supporting schools, and understanding them, and THAT s why schools still use them - why pay pretty much the same, for as you say, crap Dell support, which you then have to integrate into your RM stuff (unless youre rich, and replace the school in one go) when you can carry on with RM, and not taake such a risk.

Anyways, this is way too long - cheers for sticking up (a little) for RM - the programmers and techs are goind their best, it's management that are a problem.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have found RMs support to be totally inadequate. They don`t know any more than me apart from their own ClassMate software and such. Which with small schools, young children etc. is actually quite a burden. A lot of the software teachers want is really badly made. Some of which is made with standalones in mind, requiring a lot more privs than I`d comfortably give. Long story short fresh install of XP and Win Steady State is actually quite useful. Meant for standalones but the young'uns get to use a computer for real (not through some half arsed RM Explorer interface) without feeling restricted - except when it tells them specifically that whichever option is not available to them.
Software wise I've been fobbed off by RM. They also shafted us with older gen motherboards when some under warranty broke. THEY dragged it beyond warranty - not us... asshats.

I`d never recommend RM. But then I don`t recommend any manufacturer - they`re all tards.

I don`t want or need other people with their own motives coming between me delivering a good computing experience to both staff and pupils. On the most part it's unavoidable (I can`t build mobos etc. myself) but the amount of people in the chain with a financial interest in what we use and the like isn`t healthy.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[Anonymous Coward]

rather than making idiotic statements like that, you should first RTFA.

Intel Macs

[bazald]

I already replied above, but on an unrelated note, it just occurred to me that this license would brilliantly require schools to pay Microsoft subscription fees for all their macs with Intel CPUs. As education is one area where Macs are close to dominant, this is a brilliant move. Kudos.

Re:Intel Macs

[_merlin]

If you read how the license is worded, it requires you to pay for a license for every computer in your organisation, whether it's capable of running the software or not. You have to pay for Windows licenses for your PowerPC Macs - not just the Intel ones.

Re:Intel Macs

[bazald]

Ah yes, you make a good point... or they make a good point. Any computational device with enough memory should be able to emulate an Intel CPU based computer and could potentially be used to run Microsoft products. So, PowerPC Macs, PS3s, PSPs, and anything else that has been hacked to run an emulator could very well need a license.

Re:Intel Macs

[monktus]

I'll assume that you're over in the states as this isn't really the case anymore in the UK. Back in the day, British schools were filled with BBC Micros instead of Apple IIs (that's plural, not the model name BTW) and later on Macs were indeed the dominant platform. However things have changed a bit in the past few years, many local authorities have moved over to Windows and I'd guess that Microsoft is now the dominant platform.

Also, is BECTA UK wide? I think it is, however keep in mind that the UK has three completely different education systems for England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Furthermore I think it's pretty much down to local authorities to choose computing platforms for their schools AFAIK.

When I was in my final year at high school in Edinburgh back in 1998, things were a bit strange when it came to computing. My school just starting to get money for its first new Macs in a while and the curriculum was also being changed. Because of this we were programming using a strange language called COMAL under BBC Micro emulation on a mixture of PowerMacs, LCs and Pluses! There were even a few actual BBC Micros still in use!

A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[nbannerman]

Well I'm a Sys Admin / Network Manager in a school in the UK.

Truth of the matter is I have approximately 2% of the school budget made available to me; this equates to about £150,000. Using that money, I run a 2000+ user network, with nearly 750 attached devices (thin clients, fat clients, printers, etc).

I run an almost entirely Microsoft shop - 2000/2003/Exchange/XP/XPe, with Office 2003 / Encarta / Project as well. In terms of non-MS OS, take your pic from Debian, Thinstation and a host of Linux-based thin client devices (Neoware, Wyse, etc).

My Microsoft licensing costs come in at around £12,000 per year, this also includes my terminal service licensing. Is that a lot? Not really - the buy price for 650+ copies of XP, Office, plus CALs for Exchange, 2003 and Terminal Services is prohibatively high imho.

BECTA can complain about the terms of the agreement, and suggest we spend our money 'up front', but unless they are going to provide funding, I'm afraid to say I'll stick with the Schools Agreement for now.

I'd love to have the money to buy outright, don't get me wrong. But for a school with a relatively low income (ie our students come from a high socio-economic area) I simply can't afford to do it - £12,000 a year is however a manageable cost.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[hyades1]

What would it cost you to go Open Source?

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[nbannerman]

It would cost nothing in terms of hardware and software.

What would it cost to migrate, in terms of staff / student training? What would it cost to get my two technicians up to spend on OSS? What would it cost to migrate?

The truth of the matter is there are three ICT staff at the college - myself and two technicians. Running a 2000+ user network is one thing; running that network and migrating to a completely new way of doing things is something you don't undertake lightly.

I'm getting there - slowly. I'm pushing for thin clients to start with - reducing our dependancy on 'the latest and greatest' hardware. The next thing will be to replace the 2003 Terminal Services with linux-based ones. One step at a time - thats the plan.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Threni]

> The truth of the matter is there are three ICT staff at the college - myself and two technicians. Running a 2000+ user network is one thing;
> running that network and migrating to a completely new way of doing things is something you don't undertake lightly.

Especially when the technicians are likely to see it as deskilling. What's the point of learning something that's of next to no use to you in your next job?

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[caluml]

That's a nice website you've got there. It'd be a shame if anything... Oh, wait, it has.

Warning: Unknown: open_basedir restriction in effect. File(/home/kweilo/public_html/index.html) is not within the allowed path(s): (/home/chex-uk/:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php:/tmp) in Unknown on line 0 Warning: Unknown: failed to open stream: Operation not permitted in Unknown on line 0 Fatal error: Unknown: Failed opening required '/home/kweilo/public_html/index.html' (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in Unknown on line 0

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[nbannerman]

Heh, yeah, I know. The wonders of free hosting from a mate - when the box goes down for some reason you feel a bit guilty asking them to fix it...

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[pbhj]

>>> Especially when the technicians are likely to see it as deskilling. What's the point of learning something that's of next to no use to you in your next job?

So what you're saying is there's no demand for people who can help move a 2000 person userbase to OSS (and support MS stuff during transition)? You ever read any stories here about companies using Linux ever? No, guess not ...

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[LordLucless]

Looks like your site has been moved to a different directory, but you use absolute directory paths to reference files in include statements or some such. Change your absolute paths to relative and your site should work again.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[hyades1]

That would indeed be a major investment of very limited personnel resources. Sounds to me as though you're doing an excellent job under challenging circumstances.

A key advantage to such a changeover from an educational perspective was mentioned above by Webmaster404. I might add that Linux works just fine on current systems and the used machines that Vista and "dual core mania" are putting into the marketplace at very reasonable prices.

It would be nice if students could continue to use up-to-date software on less than the "latest and greatest" hardware. And let's face it, most of the businesses that will hire your graduates have never worried about cutting-edge hardware.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Threni]

> So what you're saying is there's no demand for people who can help move a 2000 person userbase to OSS (and support MS stuff during transition)? You
> ever read any stories here about companies using Linux ever? No, guess not ...

Some companies use Linux, sure. It's something of a niche though, compared to the order of magnitude more MS jobs in the UK (public or private). For every Linux job advertisement you can show me for Linux, I'll show you 100 for windows.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Anonymous Coward]

£150,000 - WOW, I work in a school with 1800+ users & 600 clients and our budget is £10,000

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[jimicus]

For every Linux job advertisement you can show me for Linux, I'll show you 100 for windows.

That cuts both ways though.

For every 100 experienced applicants for a Windows-centric job, you'll probably get 1 experienced applicant for a Linux-centric job.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Tsagadai]

Here in Australia you will be paid far more as a Linux sysadmin than a windows sysadmin. Why would you call that a deskill? A lot of CTO's and CEO's with knowledge of what linux is see itas more of a challenge than windows which suggests the person with linux on their resume is subsequently more skilled.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Bert64]

I'd start by installing OSS apps, that way a transition to linux is a lot less painful.
You can also start using open formats internally (use the sun plugin for msoffice etc), you can justify this by giving free copies of openoffice to the students in the name of keeping everyone on a level playing field.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Bert64]

Point them to a few job boards, people with unix skills are usually paid more than people who only know windows.
There's also the case that unix skills transfer quite well, if you learned linux by installing a downloaded debian, learning solaris or aix is not a huge jump.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Bert64]

Yes there are more windows jobs...
There are also more people applying for those jobs...
There's also typically less money to be earned in those jobs...
Unix skills are more easily transferred between unixes (solaris, linux, aix, hpux etc)
And people with unix skills usually know windows too, and unix skills could be the tipping point even when applying for a windows job (embedded unix is everywhere, even where you wouldn't expect it).

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Bert64]

I assume that doesn't include wages, 10,000 would barely cover a single staffer on minimum wage.
That said, £10,000 goes a long way these days. You can buy a fully functional PC for under £300 (no it wont be a cutting edge gaming rig nor does it need to), and if your using free (as in beer) software those machines can be stretched out for quite a few years before they become useless.
And even after one becomes useless, some parts can be reused like the monitors and keyboards (mice probably not, because kids steal the balls, so you glue them in, which stops you cleaning them properly).
Or the really old ones can become dumb terminals, for £10,000 you could get a good beefy server to serve a whole heap of clients. Remember you wont have to pay VAT on that either, and a lot of vendors will do an educational discount.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[caluml]

If I can blow my own horn a little... http://linuxvps.org/. Might be a better solution, and starts at £7.50 a month.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[nbannerman]

Staffing costs (since we're getting into the nitty-gritty) are broken down as follows; £30k for me, £15k each for the two technicians. Not exactly fantastic wages, but for them it is a good start considering they are 17/18 - they'll gain fantastic experience before we loose them to somewhere better.

I'm a big advocate of thin clients - the reduction in TCO and the reduced need for desktop support are big plus points. I have 160-odd thin clients at present - a mix of Wyse, Neoware, Neoware m100 notebooks, Sun ray Ones, and some RM-badged laptops I've rebuilt with thin station. If this continues to grow, my options are as follows - virtualise, more terminal services, or go for the LTSP I've discussed elsewhere. That decision is likely to be user led.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[leoxx]

The Kamloops/Thompson district in BC made the switch and runs on all open source now.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Bert64]

30k is not a bad wage for a school admin, people i knew got a lot less...
Yes, thin clients make an awful lot of sense in schools... Kids have an annoying habit of breaking or stealing computers, but a thin client has less to go wrong and is worthless without a server to connect it to anyway.
We had a spate of comparatively smart thieves who would replace the cpus with slower ones, but overclock them to the original speed. They usually took a few weeks before they died, and a few more days before the dead ones got any attention so we never did find out who did it.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[maccam]

I frankly do not believe the "£12,000 for 2000+" statement. I run computing at one medium-sized department at major UK university. We are assessed nearly £3000 per annum for MS licensing (and we are the only Mac-based department in the University). MS demands that every computer be counted as a Windows computer (Mac, Linux and PC--it does not matter). This not a manageable cost it is extortion.

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[nbannerman]

£3000pa? You are getting shafted mate, surely?

It is a 2000+ user network, with a maximum of 750~ computers - my CALs are per device, not per user - no point getting per user CALs when I can only support 750~ max at any one time.

If you don't mind, what software are you running that is being counted here?

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[Captain_Chaos]

Purely out of interest: have you (as in: your school) looked in to running an open source (GNU/Linux, OpenOffice.org, etc...) shop? Or some other non-Microsoft configuration? If so, what were your reasons for choosing Microsoft?

Re:A UK School Sys Admin's Response...

[nbannerman]

Up until October 2005 there wasn't any OSS on the network, aside from one or two Apache web servers for custom web apps. I guess this is the same in many places - what started as a few Windows 3.1 machines has just grown over time - nothing says 'vendor-lock-in' like a continued upgrade path.

A break down of the current situation (essentially what has changed since I started);

* Firefox on all machines - users have the choice of using IE or Firefox, we don't mandate which. * Old RM laptops rebuilt using thinstation (http://thinstation.sourceforge.net) to connect into terminal servers. * LTSP (http://www.ltsp.org/) trial in place, using Sun Ray One thin clients, KDE / Open Office / Firefox delivered on the desktop, full AD integration.

Considering how entrenched the Microsoft-mentality is, I don't think it is a bad start. As I've discussed elsewhere, I am led by the needs of my users. I will do my best to provide the tools they need to teach and learn - sometimes this goes against my better judgement, but I'd rather prove the alternatives work before doing a wholesale changeover.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[khb]

Realistically, in most school settings any system that *CAN* run a software package probably will at some point. Evil agendas aside, it makes sense for a vendor to offer a steep discount and then apply it to all possible systems ... it also makes sense for the school so that they aren't accidentally in violation with draconian penalties attaching.

That such a site license also has the side effect of making it more attractive to just run the site licensed software (less to manage) is part of why a software vendor is motivated to offer steep discounts.

It happens in industrial settings and not just for software from Evil Overloads from Rainy locations.

Unavoidable Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

In this day and age, such a licensing scheme would mean a license for every single machine from every vendor, including HP, Dell, and Apple. Are there any personal computers being manufactured today that cannot run windows?

Re:Hmm... again, the article is.... slashdotish

[Foofoobar]

MS has 2 kind of educational licenses...

Yes, the 'give us your first born' and 'fork over your mortal soul' licenses

This is just like...

[MeditationSensation]

...paying for the MS license for the Windows installed on OEM machines, whether the user ends up using it or not (e.g. installs Linux instead).

Re:This is just like...

[Shados]

No, its not, because the schools explicitely pick this deal, and do so willingly. Why? Well, it is simply MUCH, MUCH easier for everyone (including the school).

The whole "paying for all computers, even those not using Windows" is simply a metric to gauge an "unlimited license" pricing, so to speak. The school pays a number that scales depending on the amount of computers they have (and its MUCH -MUCH- less than normal educational pricing. I repeat, MUCH less, so the computers that won't be using Windows ARE factored in the quote!), they pay up, and they never have to manage those licenses ever again.

Much, MUCH easier. Its not very different from how most serious Windows development shops will take MSDN licenses over development licenses separately. They end up "Paying for ALL the softwares in MSDN", even though they will only use a TINY FRACTION (5% at most usually!) of the softwares there, but its MUCH easier to manage for everyone, and overall its often cheaper.

Again: the idea is that they pay by the size of the computer infrastructure, not "for all computers" (even if it ends up being the same, the idea is very different), and the price considers that Windows won't be install on all of it. I'm nowhere CLOSE to rich, and I could probably pay -CASH- for the price most schools pay for THE ENTIRE SCHOOL. So you're not "REALLY" paying for every computers. Its just a way to keep the agreement simple.

Re:It's about licensing fraud

[Lokitoth]

Not even that; the license in question gives those paying for it the *right* (which is all a license can give) to install these products on any machine that the license is paid for. Because the terms are set such that any machine the school owns that supports the software is included, the school must pay Microsoft for all those computers - in return they get access to an unlimited number of binaries and the right to install and run them on those computers. To offset the issue that the school might not want to run a Microsoft solution on all those machines, or might want to run only a subset of a Microsoft solution on any one of those machines, the price for the license is significantly lower than buying (up front) the same quantity of licenses. Note here, is that the same quantity would be a full Device CAL for each machine (for the servers), the Servers themselves (for each machine) and the client software for each machine. Microsoft *requires* this because they do not want to deal with the issues of sublicensing and trusting those buying licenses of their software from abusing the terms of their licenses. Historically, there has been a problem with piracy of the Microsoft platform, and they are dealing with it in one of the possible ways. Is this an ideal solution? Probably not. Would I argue against the statement that certain anti-competitive practices by Microsoft ecouraged aforementioned piracy? No. I wholeheartedly support the association warning the schools that the alternative should be considered. At the end of the day, I want the best education for my family, which means spending less resources for a particular solution. Merely because Linux is a "free" solution does not mean that fewer resources need to be spent to set up and administer the infrastructure. The schools decided to get a Microsoft solution - now it is up to them to determine which of the available terms that Microsoft offers is better for them.

Linux does not teach students about computers ...

[AHumbleOpinion]

Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows

No. Linux and Windows are equivalent in the sense that neither teaches students about computers, they both teach students about an operating system.

if a UNIX student learned on vi, they could edit text files with ease on a Linux system

Again, Linux and Windows are far more alike than you claim. The student who learned DOS EDIT can open a console and run EDIT under Windows.

More importantly, much open source software (OpenOffice, GIMP, Apache, MySQL, ...) is also available for Windows.

Schools should not be teaching Windows or Linux. Neither is appropriate. Common business and productivity tools are appropriate, but only to the degree that a student could write and print an essay, solve some math problems with a spreadsheet, etc. Expertise in such tools should be reserved for some sort of business class. Teaching kids to be admins is *not* something K-12 education should be doing. We have already stolen too much time from basic reading, writing, arithmetic, and science.

Sighing?

[greg_barton]

For chrissakes, people. Are you trying to mock yourselves?

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[Michael Woodhams]

I'll play devil's advocate here.

If you buy licenses per-computer where needed, then the school has troubles figuring out what licenses it owns and where they are being used.

If (say) 90% of a school's computers are going to run the MS software, and MS is offering a 20% discount for site licensing, the school wins both in money and in admin hassle by taking the site license, even though some of the computers won't use the paid-for software.

(In this particular case, there is an additional complication that the site licensing is per-year, whereas perpetual licensing is one-time up-front.)

Edubuntu etc.

[m2943]

There are entire distributions for kids and schools. One of them is Edubuntu; there are many others.

Typing tutors have been available on Linux since before Windows or Macintosh even existed.

The biggest problem systems like Linux have is prejudice and ignorance from people like you.

Re:Edubuntu etc.

[alshithead]

"Typing tutors have been available on Linux since before Windows or Macintosh even existed."

Sorry, calling bullshit on you. According to Wikipedia (not a source that is completely unimpeachable) Windows was available in '83 and GNU, a Linux precursor was started in development Jan. 5 of 1984. Macintosh was released in Jan. of '84. So...a typing tutor was created before Win or Mac even though those operating systems were released prior? Anecdotally, I seem to remember using a typing tutor on my Apple II+ that I'm sure ported to Mac. The Apple II+ was released in '79 and I had one in '81 or '82.

From Wikipedia; "The plan for the GNU operating system was publicly announced on September 27, 1983, on the net.unix-wizards and net.usoft newsgroups by Richard Stallman..."Software development began on January 5, 1984, when Stallman quit his job at Massachusetts Institute of Technology so that they could not claim ownership or interfere with distributing GNU as free software.", "The Linux kernel has been marked by constant growth throughout its history. Since the initial release of its source code in 1991...", "In 1983 Microsoft announced its development of Windows, a graphical user interface (GUI) for its own operating system (MS-DOS) that had shipped for IBM PC and compatible computers since 1981.", "Named after the McIntosh variety of apple, the original Macintosh was released on January 24, 1984."

"The biggest problem systems like Linux have is prejudice and ignorance from people like you."

The biggest problem with SOME Linux users is their superior attitude and their ignorance of history. I'm in my 40's and have played with Timex Sinclair, TRS-80, Commodore, Apple II+, III, Lisa, Macs, IBM PC Jr, DOS, all Win flavors, Unix, mainframes, and currently run Ubuntu on my laptop. Don't try and snow us old timers you whippersnapper.

Re:Edubuntu etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, calling bullshit on you. According to Wikipedia (not a source that is completely unimpeachable) Windows was available in '83 and GNU, a Linux [...]

Obviously, the touch typing tutors I'm referring to were running on UNIX back then. The same software now runs on Linux, as well as zillions of new programs.

The point is that UNIX (and hence Linux) has a has a very long history of educational use and educational software.

There are different definitions of "require."

[Anonymous Coward]

The alternative, of course, would be that MS performs a full audit, and if they find anything, even legal software for which the school can't find the receipt, they will force the school to pay fines and the full cost of the audit, which can cost many tens of thousands of dollars (or the equivalent in pounds sterling).

So yeah, MS can "require" it.

This is unbelievable

[JustNiz]

From TFA: "Microsoft required schools to have licences for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else."

Unbelievable. As a UK tax-payer, I want the name of every moron in the UK school system that decided to force schools to use Microsoft products even knowing this.

Re:This is unbelievable

[nbannerman]

Well I am one of those 'morons' - and there are a few good reasons (my comment further up explains some of them) why I choose to use the school agreement - and if there was a cheaper / easier way of doing it, I guarantee you I would be using it.

Unless you are lucky enough to be a Grammar school, or an Academy, your ICT funding is always embarrassingly low - we crimp and save wherever possible just to keep things running.

Re:This is unbelievable

[petermgreen]

Afaict the situation goes something like.

An educational establishment has lots of PCs running various versions windows and various versions of various software some MS, some none MS, some legit, some pirate. This is a management nightmare but paying regular prices to upgrade everything would be cost prohibitive. MS comes along and offers windows and office at a very steep discount and with the right to use any version you want (the windows OS part is upgrade/downgrade only but since virtually all machines come with an OEM windows license that is not really a major issue).

However to get the products at this discount they have to sign up to terms that are not very nice. The license cost is based on some factor other than the number of machines running windows (for schools I belive it is total number of PCs, for universities I think it is total students or something like that). So there is no financial incentive to move individual machines to free software. Further the deals are often subscription based so the institution has to keep paying even if they have no desire to upgrade.

Re:This is unbelievable

[humpy101]

Exactly. WTF are we paying M$ for? Get with the program guys, Linux is FREE as in beer. Why pay for licenses you don't need? Yeah, the computer is a tool, it justs works, yada fucking yada. Here's the deal folks - these are computers for KIDS. Now, how many slashdotters have kids? I do, and if you did too you would know that they are very adaptable little creatures. Try teaching them a second language, they will run rings around you. Give em Ubuntu, in 6 months they will be able to use it better than Linus himself (well maybe not but you get the idea!!)Get em while they're young!!. Introduce Linux into the classroom and in 10 years at the outside M$ will be history.

Re:This is unbelievable

[JustNiz]

>> we crimp and save wherever possible
I really hope that was a typo.

>> if there was a cheaper / easier way of doing it, I guarantee you I would be using it.

There is. Really. Its called GNU/Linux and Opensource. Its FREE as in NO LICENCE FEE AT ALL and none of the usage restrictions that Microsoft's EULA is full of. Linux is also been repeatedly proven to be more secure, more stable than Windows. GNU/Linux is also much more global standards-compliant than any Microsoft product so MUCH better for the kids to learn than some vendor-specific technology. I've also seen time and again that Linux-based installations need many less support staff than the same sized installation running Windows so you'd save money there too.

Yes existing MS windows users would have to go through a small learning curve. Good job you're teachers then, and your users are kids, who at that age can learn fast, so you have no real excuse. Actually you'd be surprised how small an effort it is to make the switch, as nearly all Common Linux productivity apps such as Firefox and OpenOffice etc. look so close to their Microsoft counterparts that it's already quite familiar.

I work in the computer industry as a Linux software developer and team lead. The reality I see daily is that technical professionals whose only experience is on Microsoft products are everywhere so are 10 a penny. Those with Linux experience are in much more heavy demand. By telling you that I'm also proactively countering any argument you might have about using Microsoft in order to train the kids for whatever experience will benefit them most in the current workplace.

Please, seriously, for the kids, throw Microsoft out on its ear and don;t look back.

Re:This is unbelievable

[nbannerman]

My comment further up discusses how much Microsoft licensing costs - approximately £12,000 per year. This is not a massive cost, given the size of my network (2000+ users, 750~ devices, various MS software, terminal service licensing, etc).

I am vendor agnostic - I believe in using the best tool for the job. However, and this is the kicker - I am led by the needs of my users, and to a certain extent, led by the decisions that have been made by my predecessors.

My problem is not the students - I'm running a trial of a LTSP / thin client trial (using old sun ray ones) at present. It fully integrates with my AD and the desktop experience hasn't been a problem. OO / Firefox are just fine for what the students need within the context of the trial. Of course, to be fair, I have a trial using Wyse S50s and Terminal Services on Server 2003, and again, the software provided (Office 2003 / IE etc) is just fine.

But what about the software used by the Admin Staff? Windows Only. What about the Finance Software? Windows Only. The MIS software? Windows Only. The Electronic Registration Software? Web based, but only works in IE. What about the subject specific software? Windows Only.

I didn't make the decision to purchase any of that software - the respective departments made that decision long before I got this job. Things are moving forward with regards to opening the software up, specifically moving to web capable apps - and yes I will be making sure anything web-based is cross-brower compatible.

Now yes, there are workarounds for the various problems I list above. I'll be honest - with 3 full time staff who are busy keeping the current network running, there simply is not the resource available to even begin assessing how we might shift away from our current set-up.

I've made the best start I can - proving that an OSS-based solution can work - the thin client trial. The next step is to target other areas where that trial can grow into. If my users are happy, then I'm happy; but I won't force a solution on to them without proving it really can work. I hope that I'm being responsible in that regard.

Re:This is unbelievable

[LingNoi]

£12,000 per year. This is not a massive cost,

For the whole country?! Wow that is cheap.

Re:This is unbelievable

[ledow]

I feel your pain, brother. I've worked as a technician/network manager in various UK schools for many years

Yep. This is what happens. Hell, when I started working in schools about 6 years ago, the Borough finance system ran as a DOS-telnet-style program through to a Borough central computer. It didn't even print properly - the client software did translation to put it into a printable format.

And even now people just buy a CD/DVD and then complain that it doesn't work without even reading whether it's Mac, PC, requires other software etc. They just expect it to work and the rest is your problem. And you don't get to say "No" (except in limited circumstances) because if a teacher says that a particular piece of software is a requirement of their teaching their course, you ALWAYS rank second, even if technically you out-qualify the teacher.

And now everything is going web-based you have new troubles. No longer do you have to chase up arcane pieces of software but you now walk the tightrope of "managed services", which is a nice way of saying "you're sacked, find another industry to employ you".

Anyway, Windows in UK schools is here to stay. You CAN avoid the license being talked about... Microsoft offers a plethora of licensing options of which this is just one. But the fact is that for some schools it works out a whole lot cheaper.

BECTA Says Dump M$.

[Anonymous Coward]

BECTA [did not say] whether or not to use Windows (and Office in this case too), at least not in the short term.

Reading the summary is nice but reading them all is better. If you had followed the links you would have seen that BECTA already said that Windows should not be used because free software does everything for much less money. Today's lesson was that the seemingly better deal offered by M$ is worse and what they have said previously applies that much more.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[lakeland]

The licence terms do not restrict on what the computer 'can' run, they just bill per CPU.

A Mac that is incapable of running the software will also require a licence to run it. I know a school which did not get Macs because the cost of software licences for Microsoft software that the Mac's were incapable of running put the idea over budget, so they bought Toshiba notebooks running Windows instead.

You have a point. Site Licences have existed for a while and sites using them get fewer headaches. They don't generally cost more if you have more computers, but I can see the desire to charge large schools more than small schools.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[alshithead]

Thank you for an insightful and finally on-topic post. There is only one issue. MS is requiring that ALL machines in the school have MS licenses regardless of whether or not they use actually MS OS/apps on an individual machine.

Obviously this is an unacceptable requirement for any school. Likewise, this would be unacceptable for a business and an attempt to apply this towards schools could...(tinfoil hat on) be a precursor to trying to press additional license requirements on businesses.

Happened in NZ with MS Office on Macs...

[zurtle]

Slashdot covered a very similar predicament a while ago:
Clicketh

Given the timestampdiff between the two it looks like it is taking people a while to wake up to the reality of Microsoft licencing.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[Frosty Piss]

And how exactly are they going to "force" this? Such things require legal documents, Microsoft has no power to waltz in and demand anything. I bought it, it's mine, YOU prove otherwise. Have your lawyers call my lawyers. Anyway, businesses that don't keep licenses and receipts are idiots.

Bad idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Y hello thar, R U gonna cum over tonite?"

Won't anybody PLEASE think of the children???

Type Training:

[Virgil Tibbs]

sudo apt-get install ktouch
On a more serious note, there are many programs suitable for teaching kids...
Ever heard of Gcompris
On a more serious note have you ever LOOKED for type training, doodling, trivia games etc which you allege to be found in a primary school computer lab.
I have, (I have nephews) and I found just the selection one might want.
When I went through my primary school, we had a program called dazzle for Windows and Acorn (RISC OS), which was basically MS Paint, (or KolourPaint [ for FL/OSS childs doodling look at TuxPaint]). And we also had a program called. We also had a Acorn & Windows Word Processing Package, nothing special. Definitly much lower grade than Abiword or OO.o Writer. But more upmarket than wordpad.
What other things are needed in a primary schools computer lab?

*sigh* (ing)

[Anonymous Coward]

warned OFF? SIGHing?

WHAT?! I didn't realize slashdot really went downhill THAT far!

One of those tricks

[Johnny Doughnuts]

I remember in High School they disabled access to C: via My Computer. Well you could open the properties of any shortcut and click Find Target and you're in. Or getting into Control Panel via Windows Help's "Show Me" feature.

Re:One of those tricks

[ewanm89]

You know how well renaming the .exe works, it's a filename based whitelist so just rename to msword.exe or whatever... Oh and students running there own programs isn't as much of a problem on a properly set up 'nix system.

Re:One of those tricks

[Gideon Fubar]

or, of course, ol' reliable win-r.. I've seen so many systems configured to remove 'run' from the start menu.. most of them forgot to remove the shortcuts tho..

Re:One of those tricks

[Blkdeath]

I remember in High School they disabled access to C: via My Computer. Well you could open the properties of any shortcut and click Find Target and you're in. Or getting into Control Panel via Windows Help's "Show Me" feature.

One student at the high school I was administering discovered that even with our more prohibitive settings (many/most of those alternatives were disabled) he could simply create a shortcut to C: on a floppy disk and he was home free.

Sure, I was pissed at him, but at the same time I was impressed with the elegant simplicity of it all.

Re:One of those tricks

[Kalriath]

At work I totally blew up the security one of our tech guys work, using Internet Explorer's Help Menu. Click Help > About > System Info > Open > Right Click > Explore. If that's disabled, then it's off to View > Privacy Policy > Tell me about cookies > Tools > Internet Options > (Temporary Internet Files) Settings > View Files. Even if all the icons are gone, get Task Manager open, click Help > About > End User License Agreement (would you believe it opens NOTEPAD?!?) And to top it all off, MS Word is officially the biggest vulnerability in that type of security (can you get to the VB Editor in that? "Shell cmd.exe" is the one line that demolishes all security).

Re:One of those tricks

[cheater512]

Thats one way. Another way is to force another program to execute it. VBA is a sys admin's nightmare. :)
Prohibiting exe execution only works against programs which Explorer executes.

Re:One of those tricks

[darthflo]

Usually creating a shortcut and entering "cmd" as it's target address will do the trick, too if every other way's locked down.

Re:One of those tricks

[ewanm89]

I already know this too... It's windows that causes the security nightmare in the first place...

Re:One of those tricks

[R_Dorothy]

In places where 'cmd' wasn't available I invariably found that 'command' had been neglected and you can piggy back 'cmd' off that.

Re:One of those tricks

[digitalsolo]

Myself and another student actually ran the Windows network at my high school. We administered the network and created the majority of the security settings on it. We were able to do it much more efficiently than the the staff, as the other students had no idea we were in charge. Other students would share their little tips and tricks with us, and we would promptly make adjustments to stop them from happening. Surprisingly, the student body never caught on (but rather thought our faculty to be particularly adept) over the 3 years my friends and I held the position. Last I heard, our basic setup was still in place, 6 years after leaving. Apparently a "spy" produced system is superior to the best they could concoct.

Re:One of those tricks

[Anonymous Coward]

There are many ways to get to a command line. (eg)Printers faxes ->type http:/// then view source- now you are in notepad. Many computers have cdroms, you can create a shortcut to cmd.exe and not even have to write it to cd.

However, users should only be members of the users group, access to non-essential drives should be restricted, and drives should be hidden. This should all be done through group policies, domian or local if required. Application process logging should be on. So even if/when you get to a command line I can still go back and see whats been run.

Other security item examples:
Disable booting from usb/cdrom floppy.
Set a bios admin pwd. Set registry/domain policy to not use LMHash
Secure the case of the cpu. Scan the network shares regulary for exe,zips and such. Scanning for alternate data streams is not out of the question either.

Have good logging of application launch,user login/logout and strict well documented guidelines for violating security restrictions.
Securing a network with prevention can only get you so far. Catching violations and "correcting" that behavior is just as important.

Chris

Re:One of those tricks

[Warbothong]

You can do quite a lot with a floppy disk on a school computer. Unfortunately for a guy in my old school that doesn't include dragging the Internet Explorer icon from the desktop to the floppy so that you can get on the Internet at home.

The guy running the network there was such an ass. He "solved" problems by disabling stuff; by the time I left he had disabled the floppy drives, USB ports, school email, Yahoo/Gmail/Hotmail/etc. and pretty much every way to get work to and from school. Thing is, these were disabled within Windows, so I used a boot floppy to load Damn Small Linux from a USB drive. There's always a way around these things. /me types this from a GNOME session he has started up on his University's supposedly locked-down, Firefox-only Sun Microsystems thin client.

Re:One of those tricks

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention network based IDS to catch those inevitable things you missed.

Re:One of those tricks

[Thrip]

Send me your address, I want to beat you up.

Re:One of those tricks

[lumpeh]

I found that it was possible to plug this hole by force 32bit command prompt (command.com is 16bit) through out the system by altering a particular ini file.

Of course there are a million more holes to plug, though i find the most stupid one is always enabling the local administrator account in safe mode even if its disabled in GP - like we need this in a room of generic computers with roaming profiles? Just re-Ghost the troubled pc and move on!

Industry standards

[Anonymous Coward]

The education system has a responsibility to teach kids INDUSTRY STANDARDS. Microsoft products are the industry standard for almost everything a kid should learn about computers. From Word, Excel and Access to IIS, SQL Server and dotnet programming.

Re:Industry standards

[Anonymous Coward]

The education system has a responsibility to teach kids INDUSTRY STANDARDS.

There are bigger things to change than the software used if that's the case.

Re:Industry standards

[ledow]

Obviously a troll but...

Nope.

The education system has a responsibility to teach it's kids skills for the future. Absent an actual time machine, that means predicting what they will be using in the future and giving them the best start you can from that information.

On that front, education fails miserably in almost all countries when it comes to Computer Science.

I was "officially" taught, between 1985 and 2000, BBC Micros, BBC BASIC, Windows 3.1 and (in the last year of University) Java. By the time I was taught them, they were already obsolete (I was still being "taught" BBC BASIC in 1997, for example, despite the fact I'd been programming Win32 C programs for about four years in private).

If I had even been "taught" the current tech as it was, I would have come away an expert in Windows 95 and 98 and would have almost no experience in Windows 2000. Now, to someone willing to go on to learn further, that's not too bad. But most people stop learning when they leave school, so we'd have an entire nation who, at absolute best, would be trained up on and never want to leave Windows 98.

Additionally, most SENSIBLE education systems (and that might accidentally include the UK National Curriculum but that's purely coincedental given the state of the rest of the UK education system) NEVER recommend the use of a particular product but a general overview of the type of hardware/software. If your schools teaches MSAccess courses, leave now. If they teach Database classes that just happen to use or prefer MSAccess, you're okay. Because by the time the kids grow up and get into a serious career almost nothing they would have learned in school would be useful or relevant unless they were taught generalities.

Even in Science - if I was rigourously taught that there were nine planets, I was wrong. The only way to counteract that is to keep up as best you can (although most places still teach that there are nine planets!), explain that things change and teach generalaties (i.e. know that a planet is an object of certain size that orbits the sun, rather than that Pluto is a planet, always will be a planet and can't be anything else). Like science, education has to keep up with modern trends but, like science, it has to be impartial and generalise information rather than teach by rote. Otherwise we'd all still be being taught that the Earth was flat.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[rmerry72]

I bought it, it's mine, YOU prove otherwise.

No you didn't. You licensed it. Microsoft still "own" it. you agreed to abide by their license when you handed them money.

And how exactly are they going to "force" this? Such things require legal documents, Microsoft has no power to waltz in and demand anything.

The license forces it. It is a legal document. Microsoft have every right to demand you agree by their license.

In other news...

[PHAEDRU5]

British schools were also warned off "An Inconvenient Truth".

Re:In other news...

[OneSmartFellow]

And a good thing too. It is always wise to treat any individuals perception of the truth with skepticism. No scientist worth his salt will disagree that a healthy skepticism is a key ingredient to any scientific discovery or analysis. The fact is there is simply too much that is not known about the impact of humans on the environment to treat 'An Inconvenient Truth' as gospel.

Can't...help...myself! Arrghh!

[rts008]

"Slashdot is the graffiti on technology's bathroom wall."

'Though They paint these walls to stop my pen, the Shithouse Poet has struck again!'

I cannot properly attribute this, but I did see it in my high school restroom in 1974.

BTW, that line of yours would make a great /. sig, IMHO!

"I wonder what it is any of us are doing here?"

Yeah, it can seem like that quite often, but for me...
I have learned some neat stuff here, some not so neat stuff(goatse I'm looking at you-aghhh!), and have heard a lot of useless stuff.
It seems to find equilibrium at slightly positive for me.

Sometimes it's something funny that makes my day brighter. Sometimes it opens whole new mental doors for me. Sometimes I find out how far I am either ahead or behind the curve on a subject. Sometimes it's just silly and a waste of time.
But it is always Slashdot....kind of like online Russian Roulette, but my survivors don't have to clean up the mess off the walls and floors when it goes bang!

Will Linux replace Windows?

[LingNoi]

I wonder if Ubuntu will replace Microsoft on school computers.

I just saw that Tesco UK is selling Ubuntu PCs as well! This is a first in England.

For those that don't live here Microsoft is the computer. For about 10 years I have never heard of anyone else using Linux in the UK (I mean walking around or in real life. Not over the internet), then this year suddenly walking around the university everyone's laptops have Ubuntu or Fedora or SUSE. Even my university has SUSE in one of their labs. Now that is a first!

There was a piece from 2005 in which it talks about the government seriously thinking of switching all its software to open source.

Re:Will Linux replace Windows?

[ledow]

My University (was QM&W at the time, now Queen Mary) had dual-boot Windows NT - Linux systems as far back as 10 years ago (I graduated in 2000 and it was a three-year course). Even then, most (admittedly CS) students had heard of or used it beforehand. I think I might have been the only one using it exclusively, though.

The CS department didn't care what you used so long as it worked and the main course was in Java, so it was encouraged to try your programs under both OS to make sure you weren't relying on specific-OS quirks to get your work done (the amount of people who hard-coded filenames with things like "My Documents" for instance).

It was the first time, though, that I remember meeting other people who had actually heard of Linux, let alone had used it. I think it's more to do with the University thing than it is to do with it not being used back then - a lot more people, more interested in just getting stuff done, none of them with any money to spare, etc.

Re:One size fits all software

[Technician]

One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac?

That is a valid point. The point should not mean every computer capible of running Windows needs a copy. How many copies of KStars have you seen in the science lab? There is no reason to have every computer a clone of each other. A keyboarding class is OK to license some machines to run educational software. The license should not exclude other very fine educational software simply because it is not Open Source. Schools having kids play Where in the world is Carman and The Oregon Trail because it might have some valid history or geography is no replacement for real educational software, much of which does not run on Windows.

There is a place for Kickstart software. There is also a place for Linux chemestry, astronomy and physics software.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/genchemlab/
http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~noel/linux4chemistry/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004APS..MARW38008R
http://www.mathlab.cornell.edu/support/m434_support/gap_info/
http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/whatsnew.html
http://edu.kde.org/kstars/
http://edu.kde.org/

Some of the above can run on Windows, but it is not a requirement. The valid complaint is the requirement to license all Windows capible machines, even those without Windows, or even needing Windows. It's like getting a pre-paid Texaco credit card for your kid's car and they require you to buy a Texaco license for any hardware you have that is capible of burning gasoline including your weed eater, hedge trimmer, chain saw, your boat, and all other cars. Maybe you want to run Flex Fuel on your PT Cruiser.

Re:Linux Keyboarding.

[Technician]

One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac?

Have you looked?

http://edu.kde.org/ktouch/
KTouch is a program for learning touch typing. KTouch is a way to learn to type on a keyboard quickly and correctly. Every finger has its place on the keyboard with associated keys to press.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Mac+typing+tutor
Pick one. There is lots to pick from.

There is more to life than the Windows Walled Garden. Windows is the new AOL. Easy for beginners, is the default, with users under constant attack due to it's large installed base of the clueless.

not at all

[Srin Tuar]

The computer is a tool, something to make things easier, not an end unto itself. I think we forget that on Slashdot sometimes.

This attitude itself is a problem.

You wouldnt say that about mathematics, or language, or basic logic.

All are difficult things one must master to make a useful contribution to the science, and I dont see why a computer is any different.

You are taking a very common albiet luddite position, imo.

A computer is a powerful tool which rewards your investment into learning how to use it accordingly.

A computer is not unqiue devices which simply submits to you the fruits of a skill without requiring the corresponding investment by learning.

That sort of fuzzy thinking, "do what I mean", "AI" nonsense is a staple of science fiction, and not of the real world.

Get off your physicist laurels and learn to use the machine to an level that gives you what you need. (personally a non-programmer physicist seems dreadfully antiquated to me these days)

Re:Hmm... again, the article is.... slashdotish

[flyingfsck]

Sure.... the problem being that with the smorgasboard license, you have to pay that considerable amount of money *every* year.

Scalability

[flyingfsck]

One overlooked problem is the lack of scalability of MS server solutions. MS Exchange bogs down once a database reaches 100GB and most admins recommend that you don't exceed 30GB per database. In contrast, any half decent Unix mail system is only limited by the capacity of the file system, which can be many terrabytes before any database issues are encountered. BerkeleyDB can scale up to 256TB - good luck doing that with Exchange.

A MS server system for a few thousand users require a lot more equipment and server licenses, typically 4 to 5 times more, than a similar Linux system would require and when you have 50,000 to 100,000 users, you'd need ten times more equipment.

This then affects the size of the server room, the amount of air conditioning and the number of staff, in addition to the excessive number of Microsoft server licenses.

Re:Scalability

[kickedfortrolling]

if you're needing 256TB, might be cheaper still to invest in a spam filter?

Linux efficiency is better

[flyingfsck]

"Merely because Linux is a "free" solution does not mean that fewer resources need to be spent to set up and administer the infrastructure." Actually, due to the atrocious scalability of Microsoft server solutions, you do use fewer resources with Linux solutions - significantly so. In a school with 2000 users, you'd likely be able to use half the number of servers if you were running Linux. That is a large reduction in administrative problems and much reduced hardware costs.

Also, the Linux file systems are more efficient and you'd likely use 20% less disk space too. Finally, since Linux can run software RAID, the hardware costs will be even less, since you don't need to to purchase RAID controllers.

The benefit of running Linux in schools go far beyond the immediately obvious zero licensing fees.

Re:Linux efficiency is better

[Anonymous Coward]

Care to back up anything you've just said?

A competent windows admin will have no trouble with scaling Microsoft's sever solutions, you may have trouble where others doen't. Which brings me to the point of human costs, I wouldn't have a Linux admin run my windows servers if they don't think they can handle it, and I wouldn't have a Windows admin run my Linux servers. The cost of implementing a solution with the wrong personnel just skyrockets when comparing it to a solution they are knowledgable in.

If I have resources that can build a new Windows server faster than they can fix a problem on the Linux server, why would I be using linux in the first place? (the opposite is also true)

While I have seen filesystem efficiency increases with other file systems, I have yet to see a 20% increase in the wild. However based on the entirety of your post I'd guess that the 20% gain you see isn't a result of efficiency with linux, rather your deficiency of being competent with windows.

Windows and Linux are both tools, along with their admins, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[flyingfsck]

Actually, there are simple Microsoft software management utilities that can tell you exactly what is running where.

Mod's on crack again!

[rts008]

"Kids' software needs are significantly different from that of adults,...."

Kid's software needs are related to what you want them to learn. Trust me, kid's ability to pick something up and run with it are phenomenal. This is precisely where the ole' saw 'you can't teach an OLD dog new tricks' came from.

Your mindset has already locked any children's options somewhat. You will be amazed at their adaptability if you give them the chance to show you, but they can't show you if you limit them.

I HAVE to ask: Are you a MS shill? If not then 'Think of the children!', seriously!
Ktouch does exactly what you're claiming *nix does not provide, and there are other app's that do the same if you use Gnome instead of KDE, but I've found that is a moot point in the *nix world.

I use Kubuntu 7.04-with KDE. I also use a lot of Gnome stuff on my KDE based distro...no big deal.

Do your research first, THEN post. That will diminish the wrath your pro MS posts bring down on you.

"While I agree MS's tactics here are pretty low, it doesn't immediately lead us to "switch to Linux", because honestly it's not a viable alternative."

How is it not a viable alternative?
Learning programming?...works with *nix
Learning 'office skills'? OpenOffice works great
Learning email?...Again, *nix *just works*
Learning keyboarding?...again, Ktouch and others work great
Learning trivia games? WTF?!?!? If it's important to you, then all kinds of useless time wasting games (useless to adults, but may teach young kids something) are overwhelmingly available for *nix!
Learning the Microsoft way?....possible, but with very limited support (or interest) by way of WINE and CrossOver Office, not to forget running various MS junk on VM's with VMWare, MS has their own virtual machine software, Xen, etc. (I currently run Win98 on VMWare just for my old Virtual Game Station (from old Connectix) software that allowed me to play a couple of old Playstation 1 games on my PC after I had sold my PS1 years ago, and the old UFO series of DOS games on occasion)

On the other hand, your last sentence about Apple makes me have have to retract the MS shill accusation-I do sincerely apologize, but I have to ask:They haven't been able to exploit this in decades...why now all of a sudden?

My stepdaughter originally resisted *nix until her Windows PC was seemingly always messed up, but my *nix PC was always 'just working', and I installed Kubuntu 6.10 Dapper on her PC as dual boot between Windows XP and Dapper. She now spends about 95% of her computer time in *nix. About once a month she will boot into Windows and update all of the anti-crapware app's (AVG AV, Spybot Search & Destroy, AdAware, and MS Defender), scan with same, then spend several hours on one of her online gaming sites.

Having had to deal with an infected PC, she does not see her procedure as onerous. She also prefers to use Firefox instead of IE6 or 7. She says that using Firefox speeds up her AdAware and Spybot S&D scans tremendously. I Agree from my past experience. I feel that I have taught her well.

She and I do not always agree, but she will always present her side well, and sometimes I have to accept defeat with good humor if she is right.

Damn, this is actually a 'think of the children' issue!?!

IMHO, give the kids a good mix of:

Independence (remember when they were learning to walk- hovering over them to catch them if they fell, but encouraging the effort, then training wheels on their bike, teaching them personal responsibility and allowing them to make their own decisions/choices, and the possible outcomes of same)

Self awareness as their own person- allow them to be who they are. (some boundaries and guidance is needed here, but relax some)

Instill self confidence- this one may be the toughest one to pull off as a parent! It's hard not to try to influence them to pursue your own goals/dreams. You have to allow them their own, accept it, and be supportive to do

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[im_thatoneguy]

I'll play the devil's advocate's advocate here.

Here is how the deal breaks down.

Microsoft requires that every computer that might have its software installed in the school registered.

In exchange Microsoft offers an 80% discount on everything.

I can't believe people are complaining about the nuances of Microsoft's school discounts. They offer seats of office for $7!!

If you ask me they could demand that you pay twice for every computer in the school and they're still saving an obscene amount of cash.

IM

[ChameleonDave]

The type of language they use in IM conversations is an issue totally separate from the fact that kids learn to type faster when they regularly use IM.

Re:IM

[Anonymous Coward]

any1 can typ fastr if tey leve ltrs n hol wrds out

Re:IM

[plague3106]

How can you learn to type quickly if you've reduced the kid to typing at most four letters per word, without puncutation?

Re:IM

[Anonymous Coward]

Puncutuwhatnow?!

Re:IM

[ChameleonDave]

The extreme cases that you point to could be problematic, but typing is still mainly a matter of knowing where the keys are and being able to hit them quickly. I learnt to type by writing BASIC, which isn't exactly standard English either.

Re:Linux does not teach students about computers .

[dvice_null]

Schools should perhaps not teach OS, but they could still USE Linux for teaching other stuff, simply because of the price and low maintenance costs.

I count 8 in Ubuntu

[Colin Smith]

One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac? Well. I counted 8 on Ubuntu, including one Dvorak. In the package respositories... To access these you click on Applications. Then you click on Add/Remove. Then you wait for about 10 seconds. Then you type "typing" into the search box and ... Wait... I see your problem... Catch 22. Damn, why didn't they think of that? The fools! The fools! You have to know how to type before you can find a typing tutor application. OH NO! Linux is doomed! DOOMED!

Where's the equivalent of your doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab? Edubuntu?

no "-1 Drunk Ramblings"

[Chrisq]

It would have to come with a health warning: Three pints and a keyboard can severely damage your karma.

Alternatives, alternatives, alternatives

[Fuzzypig]

What I would like to see are alternatives in schools, so kids are not brain-washed to think that MS=PC O/S. Don't give me that crub about, "Oh well MS Office is used in the office workplace, so kids have to know it.". Balls! How many options does the typical student use on a word processor, spreadsheet, presenation package? Probably about 5% at most? Heavens, I've seen kids hand in work that looks like a 5 year old put it together using vi! So therefore it makes no difference who makes the office suite, providing has save, load ,print and font formatting. With mail and office suites moving server-side/web-enabled, there certainly are no excuses why MS should dominate the desktop any more, get out and get Linux, Apple, BSD and freaking Plan9 in for heavens sake.

Re:I wonder what law they use?

[Anonymous Coward]

extortion

Would such a license fail in the US due to RICO?

Re:Linux - less of an option

[kickedfortrolling]

One of the biggest barriers is the additional programs schools want to run...

office etc im happy you can replicate in a nice free fashion, but many of the programs schools are encouraged to use, help kids to learn (and for which there are no alternatives) such as the 2simple suite (http://www.2simple.com/) are only available for windows. Equally i know of schools who maintain windows 95 machines because of idiotic OS tests in some programs which they cannot avoid using and the manufacturer has long since abandoned.

Thats not to mention the school data submission tools (i forget the names of these) which are only patchy in windows.. introduce the penguin and the whole thing falls apart!

I know that its only by schools creating the demand that these companies will start to embrace linux etc, but in the here and now its far from universally practical.

Re:Hmm... again, the article is.... slashdotish

[i.r.id10t]

You left out the Academic Alliance license/setup.

MS gives you cheap licenses for Campus licensing, *and* they sell their stuff to your students in IT programs at very low cost - copy of XP and Visual Studio for $10 or so, etc.

"Teach nothign but MS, and your graduates will know nothing but MS, which means that when they get real jobs they will work only with MS stuff..."

Pay per seat

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet they do require it, it's done in the pricing. You require their software for at least some seats, so they require you pay for all seats whether they use your software or not.

100 users, Microsoft is $100/Seat say

100% Microsoft? 100 * $100 = 10k
80% Microsoft? 100*$100 + ThirdParty * 20 = more than 10k
50% Microsoft? 100*$100 + ThirdParty * 50 = a *lot* more than 10k

So as long as you have to have *some* Microsoft apps, you're forced to pay a premium to use other peoples applications, because you're paying for each seat even if they use someone else application.

Re:Pay per seat

[tomhudson]

So do Becta recommends - buy retail versions for only enough pcs as you need, switch everything else to open source, and tell them to take a hike.

Then when they come around to "check for compliance", you can tell them to take a hike, since you no longer need, (or have), an agreement that allows those sort of "audits." Let them go to court if they want to press the issue, and when the time comes, charge them for the use of staff time to monitor them, etc.

You'll save a lot more than any "per-seat discount licensing" scheme.

UK Schools Warned Off Microsoft Deal

[porfirio_czardasz]

As I recall, Wild Billy and company were pulling the same stunt with PC manufacturers back in the 1980's. It was illegal then too.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[tomhudson]

> "The alternative, of course, would be that MS performs a full audit, and if they find anything, even legal software for which the school can't find the receipt, they will force the school to pay fines and the full cost of the audit, which can cost many tens of thousands of dollars (or the equivalent in pounds sterling)."

Bullcrap. The ONLY one who can issue an enforceable fine is a judge.

Extortion

[conureman]

"We want to reassure our customers, partners and the education sector that it is business as usual."
Bend over and take it like a customer.

File system permissions

[zerofoo]

Removing the "everyone" permission at the root of a disk formatted with the NTFS file system would have prevented that "hack" from working. My guess is this shortcut would only work on a machine formatted with a FAT32 file system.

Contrary to popular belief, windows can be made secure, but it does require some work and reduction in functionality.....as do most other operating systems.

-ted

I really wonder sometimes ...

[ScrewMaster]

whether Gates & Co. believe they're running some sort of quasi-governmental taxing authority. The arrogance is beyond belief, really it is. They certainly feel entitled to a cut of the purchase price of every PC sold.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[tomhudson]

> "Microsoft have every right to demand you agree by their license."

But the DON'T have the right to abuse their rights under that license. Demanding that you buy another copy because the certificate has become illegible, even though you have the original install CD, or that you hae the original receipt for the machine, is abusive, but that's what they do.

Stop being such sheeple.

Rubbish

[name_already_taken]

No you didn't. You licensed it. Microsoft still "own" it. you agreed to abide by their license when you handed them money. No, I didn't agree to the license, at least not in terms of a contract, because they didn't present their license to me before I bought the software. I bought the software. It is a physical thing and I paid money for it, therefore I own it.

The license forces it. It is a legal document. Microsoft have every right to demand you agree by their license. No, it does not. Microsoft may be a big company, but they're still bound by law, as is any agreement you as their customer make with them. You cannot sign away statutory rights. This type of language in a software license is just a clever ruse that they hope you think is actually enforceable and that you won't try to challenge.

Software publishers do not have law enforcement powers - that is reserved for the state. They cannot force their way into your place of business or home and search for unlicensed copies of software. Absent of evidence of software "piracy" (a maritime offense, so if you don't own a boat you're in the clear), the most they could do is sue for breach of contract (if their license with you is actually held to be a valid contract) on the grounds that you said you'd let them in, and now you won't.

Re:Rubbish

[rmerry72]

I bought the software. It is a physical thing and I paid money for it, therefore I own it.

The CD is the physical thing you purchased, not the data on the CD. Do what you like with the CD, but the data - and all activities resulting from using that data - are licensed to you by Microsoft. That is a distinction made by the State and Microsoft (all software companies) are using the powers granted to them by the State.

Don't like that distinction? Vote for somebody who cares, and get half your countrymen to do the same.

No, I didn't agree to the license, at least not in terms of a contract, because they didn't present their license to me before I bought the software.

You agreed to it by installing and using it. If the license is not visible from within the shrink-wrap (which it is) then you have the right to open the package, read the license and take it back to the store if you don't agree with the license.

You don't have the right to install it anyway. Much like you don't have the right to eat a badly cooked steak and then demand another more to your liking. If the steak isn't cooked as required you send it back before eating it.

Software publishers do not have law enforcement powers - that is reserved for the state.

And the State will enforce them on behalf of the software providers according to the laws of said State. Enforcement is a different issue. Speeding on the freeway is illegal. Getting caught is another matter. Many people don't speed because they don't want to get caught even if they believe its safe enough to drive faster.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[toadlife]

The last time I checked, Microsoft charges per FTE, not per CPU, so the number of "CPUs" had nothing to do with the cost of the licenses.

Re:Hmm... again, the article is.... slashdotish

[Noah Adler]

nobody is forcing you to agree with this license.

At least until your organization grows to a size large enough for the BSA to take notice of the fact that somewhere, someone in your particular is almost certainly in violation, and offers you the 'opportunity' to either switch to an organization-level license or face a friendly BSA audit. I guess no one's forcing us, though, since there are no literal guns pointed at literal heads.

OpenEducationDisc

[pluke]

After teaching in a London school for 3 years I can agree. Burdening poor families with the cost of this software to use at home is awful and discriminatory. I have been pushing the OpenEducationDisc http://www.theopendisc.com/education and we now distribute it to all the kids who want it. Microsoft have even admitted that piracy does them good in schools. Stop picking on the little man!

it all comes back to the monopoly

[Enrique1218]

The Microsoft monopoly does it again. Microsoft will push it licenses to the point of extortion because the institutions are stuck in the "Windows culture". This is the problem with monopolies is that are inherently abusive. Microsoft is executing good business practices (yet not ethical) but there is no competitor that can check its excesses. There is no free market for operating systems. Government should either regulate MS as a monopoly or lay down a law to govern these licenses for the whole software industry covering OEM, personal, and institutional deployment. In lieu of that, customers must protect themselves and to take measures to break the "Windows culture".

Crippling education

[Anonymous Coward]

Just another reason why schools and public authorities should be adopting open alternatives.

Yes, because spending several years learning something which has no real world usage is exactly what kids need. If somebody enters the job market not knowing how to use Windows or MS Office, they may as well just jump off a bridge at graduation, and save themselves the decades of frustrated unemployment (aka writing "FOSS") and penniless misery. Either that, or start learning how to say "Would you like fries with that?".

Re:Linux does not teach students about computers .

[AHumbleOpinion]

The cost of the operating system and office is insignificant. The maintenance costs are not necessarily lower since much "maintenance" is performed by teachers themselves. Sticking to Mac OS and Window has a maintenance advantage because they are what the teachers know. Teachers would be lost with Linux, and Linux's by nerds for nerds attitude hurts it here. Also, teaching kids to use the non-dominant word processor and spreadsheet is poor preparation for work environments. Some classes in school are more vocational than pure theory, Windows and Office is a must. In short, what for the back office and pro and semi-pro admins does not necessarily work in the classroom. Can things change, yes, but Linux will have to become a majpr player on the home desktop first.

Re:Hmm... again, the article is.... slashdotish

[maccam]

A happy Windows user and developer, And PROUD of it!

Clearly a delusional statement. The population of Sweden is subject to seasonal affective disorder (S.A.D.). Large doses of melatonin and light therapy could cure this person.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[rmerry72]

Demanding that you buy another copy because the certificate has become illegible, even though you have the original install CD, or that you have the original receipt for the machine, is abusive...

That's the same policy with most manufacturers and retailers when it comes to getting a refund or warranty repair. It's proof of ownership, nothing more. The certificate is the license, not the CD.

What happens when you get pulled over by a cop and you don't have a license on you or its faded? How is Microsoft's actions and different from the cop or every other company?

Don't like those license conditions? Don't buy the product. Simple. You have a choice. Stop whinging about the choices you made.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[tomhudson]

"The certificate is the license, not the CD."

Awesome - so now we can ignore all those EULAs!!!!

You're wrong, of course - the certificate isn't the license. Otherwise, you would be able to transfer the license without transferring the software, etc.

Your "bad car analogy" also doesn't work - if I lose my copy of my driver's license, I don't have to take the test over to get a new license, just pay the handling fee (which is less than 1/10 the license, btw cost), have my picture taken again, and wait a few minutes.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[tomhudson]

"What happens when you get pulled over by a cop and you don't have a license on you or its faded?"

If its faded, its still valid (which makes me wonder if you even have a license - most licenses nowadays are a bit more durable - you know, plastified, picture, etc).

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[jc42]

Microsoft requires that every computer that might have its software installed in the school registered.
In exchange Microsoft offers an 80% discount on everything.
I can't believe people are complaining about the nuances of Microsoft's school discounts. They offer seats of office for $7!!

OTOH, most linux distros also offer a license that permits installing the software on as many machines as you have, and the price is $0. ;-)

(You can also install OpenOffice everywhere for the same low, low price.)

Why would you buy something that you can get for 20% off, when you can get something else with the same capabilities at a 100% discount?

Really; where do they get their educators these days? No wonder the kids are graduating without being able to do simple arithmetic, if the school administrators are dumb enough to fall for Microsoft marketing.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[im_thatoneguy]

I can hire 20 Mexican immigrants for $5 an hour to replace me... in the end the work will still be inferior to my work (unless you randomly pick up someone with my skillset).

Sometimes things cost money because it's worth it.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[rmerry72]

Your "bad car analogy" also doesn't work - if I lose my copy of my driver's license, I don't have to take the test over to get a new license, just pay the handling fee (which is less than 1/10 the license, btw cost), have my picture taken again, and wait a few minutes.

you mean you missed the point of my analogy entirely. What if it was "policy" of the State in your jurisdiction to charge you a handling fee of 200% of the driving fee instead of 10%? Then Microsoft's handling fee of 100% would sound reasonable, right?

You're wrong, of course - the certificate isn't the license. Otherwise, you would be able to transfer the license without transferring the software,

The certificate is the license: the EULA is the conditions of the license, or in addition to the license. you can transfer the license without transferring the software, 'cept then you are using unlicensed software and whomever bought it off you has a license to use software they don't have.

Again, back to my "bad car analogy": You can be granted a driving license and own a car, but you can't drive the car on public roads without the license, and there isn't much point in owning a license if you never intend to own or drive a car. If you lived in an area where there weren't many cars, and you didn't need one and had no intention of driving one in the near future, would you still pay your annual driver's license fee to keep it current?

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[rmerry72]

If its faded, its still valid (which makes me wonder if you even have a license - most licenses nowadays are a bit more durable - you know, plastified, picture, etc).

I think you'll find in most jurisdictions you have to have a readable license on you at all times whilst driving. You have to be able to prove to a cop you have the authority to drive. having the authority isn't good enough - you have to prove it on demand. Just like you have to display a registration plate on the vehicle, and a visible registration certificate. Try driving a vehicle with a faded - well, damaged beyond recognition - license plate.

Same deal with software licenses: Its not that you have a license - you have to prove it when demanded.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[tomhudson]

Over here, registrations are renewed every 2 years. Dirvers licenses are plastic - same as credit cards - and are re-issued every 4 years (or if you bugger it up too much using it as a windshield ice scraper, you can get another one for $8) The chance of it fading that much while in someone's wallet or purse is not very high. As for the plates, we can get a new one every 2 years if we don't want to keep the old one ... like if we think the number has bad ju-ju/karma/whatever, or if its gotten dinged up too much.

Still, I see plates on the road that were issued 15 to 20 years ago, and they're still legible. Its not such a big issue since we did away with teh renewal stickers about a decade ago ...

As for the software license, a sales receipt is good enough for a judge. Anyone wanting any more than that can "tell it to the judge" - but the judge won't buy it.

Re:There are different definitions of "require."

[tomhudson]

The certificate is no more the license than a marriage certificate makes you married. Both indicate something external - the licence cert indicates that you are licensed to use the software, and losing the cert doesn't change that fact. Other proof of purchase is just as good. Same with marriage documents - if people lose their marriage docs, that doesn't suddenly make them unmarried.

Just as if I misplace my drivers' license, I'm not suddenly an unlicensed driver, having to pass the course again.

And no, you don't have to pay to keep your drivers' license current here - you have 11 months and 29 days grace after it expires, so what people who are not going to drive for a while do is renew their license in the last few weeks of the grace period, saving 11 months of fees. For vehicles, they can buy a parking plate, which replaces their regular plate, and doesn't have to be renewed, and is a lot cheaper than a regular plate.

For trailers, on the other hand, the plate is permanent, with a one-time fee. No renewing.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[lakeland]

Yes, I said CPU when I meant computer.

Actually, this is a discussion that came up at work this week - SQL server is an inferior product to Oracle but the massive difference in licensing costs (roughly $10,000 for SQL server vs $250,000 for Oracle) mean we are really evaluating just how much better oracle is.

The difference is that SQL server licenses per machine while oracle licenses per core and this machine will have roughly twenty different SQL programmers using it at any one time so having 16 cores is strongly desirable. In the interim we're just deliberately living with a poor CPU (single dual core) and putting everything else high spec (solid state mixed with SAS drives, gig after gig of ram, etc.) since Oracle only charges per core, not by overall system cost.

However, I doubt anything will change for at least a year - vendor lock-in is not just a Microsoft thing, it's just too hard to verify all of the SQL is vendor-neutral, check all of the triggers, port all of the oracle designer table definitions, etc.

Please Mod Parent Up

[QuietObserver]

I know he's posted as an AC, but he makes a very good point, and states it in a way that is both hilarious and informative. I laughed hard when I read it.

Re:I wonder what software they use?

[toadlife]

Yes, I said CPU when I meant computer. I know that. And I said FTE, which is what Microsoft charges us by. Perhaps you have a different academic licensing scheme that goes by number of computers.

The difference is that SQL server licenses per machine while oracle licenses per core SQL server is not licensed by computer. It is licensed either by the 'CAL' model, or by physical CPU (not core). Typically would go the CAL route for development systems where only a few people will be connecting as it is much cheaper. On live systems where there will be hundreds of connections, it is appropriate to go the per CPU route.