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Sun's Java has been available in binary form for as long I've been using Linux (I started using Linux in 1994).

Quite an amazing feat since Java didn't come out until 1995. When I first started working with Java (1996) there was no official Sun Java under Linux, there was a port from BlackDown (their web site seems to have gone AWOL recently).

I can't remember exactly when Sun added Linux as an officially supported platform, however I know it wasn't from the get go. As a matter of fact, the number one bug in Sun's Java Bug Parade for a long time was a petition to officially support Linux.

Yeah, on Linux/Sparc there's the ancient Blackdown Java 1.4.1 and that's about as usable as it gets. Blackdown claim to be working on 1.5 for Sparc but the status page has said that for a very long time, and I doubt they'll bother finishing it in light of these changes.

I have a Netra T1, and it's pretty annoying / stupid that I can't run a modern Java on Sun's own hardware, especially as I was using it as a freenet server. I considered installing Solaris, but it turns out that doing that on a headless / optical-drive-less server without an existing Sun machine to bootstrap from is a barely documented huge PITA. A working, Free Java 6 will be a great improvement.

Here is is a what a "emerge --search java" yields in gentoo:

* app-accessibility/java-access-bridge Latest version available: 1.6.0-r1 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 120 kB Homepage: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/ Description: Gnome Java Accessibility Bridge License: LGPL-2 * app-emulation/emul-linux-x86-java [ Masked ] Latest version available: 1.6.0 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 61,248 kB Homepage: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.6.0/ Description: 32bit version Sun's J2SE Development Kit License: dlj-1.1 * dev-java/ant-javamail Latest version available: 1.7.0 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 6,682 kB Homepage: http://ant.apache.org/ Description: Apache Ant's optional tasks depending on sun-javamail License: Apache-2.0 * dev-java/apple-java-extensions-bin Latest version available: 1.2-r1 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 3 kB Homepage: http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/AppleJavaExt ensions/AppleJavaExtensions.html Description: A pluggable jar of stub classes representing the new Apple eAWT and eIO APIs for Java 1.4 on Mac OS X. License: Apple * dev-java/aterm-java Latest version available: 1.6 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 93 kB Homepage: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/sen1/twiki/bin/view/SEN1/A TermLibrary Description: Java library for ATerm exchange License: LGPL-2.1 * dev-java/blackdown-java3d-bin Latest version available: 1.3.1-r1 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 9,881 kB Homepage: http://www.blackdown.org/ Description: Java 3D Software Development Kit License: sun-bcla-java-vm * dev-java/cairo-java Latest version available: 1.0.5-r1 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 353 kB Homepage: http://java-gnome.sourceforge.net/ Description: Java bindings for cairo License: LGPL-2.1 * dev-java/glib-java Latest version available: 0.2.6-r1 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 323 kB Homepage: http://java-gnome.sourceforge.net/ Description: Java bindings for glib License: LGPL-2.1 * dev-java/gnu-javamail Latest version available: 1.0-r1 Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ] Size of files: 690 kB Homepage: http://www.gnu.org/software/classpathx/javamail/ Description: GNU implementation of the Javamail API License: GPL-2 * dev-java/java-config Latest version available: 2.0.31-r3 Latest version installed: 2.0.30 Size of files: 16 kB Homepage: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/java/ Description: Java environment configuration tool License: GPL-2 * dev-java/java-config-wrapper Latest version available: 0.12-r1 Latest version installed: 0.12 Size of files: 7 kB Homepage: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/java Description: Wrapper for java-config License: GPL-2 * dev-java/java-getopt Latest version available: 1.0.13 Latest

Honestly, how hard is it to install Java after you install an OS. Java doesn't come installed on Windows machines and all the desktop drones seem to be figuring it out. Also, it may not be the lastest and greatest, but http://www.blackdown.org/ gets the job done. As far as speed and memory requirements; Java is as good as it's programmer, same as any other language.

Umm Blackdown is the one http://www.blackdown.org/. Sun's is kinda ugly and encumbered.

      PenGun
    Do What Now ??? ... Standards and Practices !

Also, the Sun JRE does not provide the source, whereas the GCC does.

Sun provides the source for the JDK (the compiler), same as GCC does, though not under the same licence obviously.

Since the specs are open, there are open source implemenations of the JRE available.

and hey a 64Bit java plugin would be nice.

Yep. Blackdown was more of a "cool name" for a branch project where a bunch of Sun programmers ported the Sun JVM to Linux. They were even branded, humorously, hackers by Sun. Kinda silly in my opinion.

http://www.blackdown.org/

Well, let's see... OK, so what you're asking for is that Sun should write a standard for a slimmed-down version of Java, just for PDAs? Say, we could call it Java 2 Micro Edition? And maybe you'd want that standard to be implemented on PocketPC machines?

Wait, it gets better. You can also find a full java implementation (Java 1.3) for iPAQ.

If you want something in between, there's also PersonalJava. It has more features than J2ME, but fewer than a full java. It's nearing end of life though, I'm not sure what will come out to replace it.

There are JVMs for PDAs and cell phones and yes, PocketPC too. They are a very good way of getting your software to run on many portable devices. The only downside is that your code will run slower than something hand-crafted for a particular type of device.

Blackdown is still 1.4, at least on amd64 stable

* dev-java/blackdown-jre
Latest version available: 1.4.2.01-r1
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 28,483 kB
Homepage: http://www.blackdown.org/
Description: Blackdown Java Runtime Environment 1.4.2.01
License: sun-bcla-java-vm

* dev-java/sun-jre-bin [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 1.5.0.03
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 32,042 kB
Homepage: http://java.sun.com/j2se/
Description: Sun's J2SE Platform
License: sun-bcla-java-vm

The AMD64 editions still does not provide a browser plug-in. Luckily, there is Blackdown.

I haven't heard anything so retarded since the last time I heard steve balmer give a speech. How excactly is ".net much more free than java"? Last time I checked, microsoft was not giving away any open sourced versions of any .net compilers without at least purchasing the operating system, so it's not really giving it away, plus its not open sourced. On the other hand, you can freely download jre and jdk from the sun website and though I'm not sure whether that is open sourced or not, there is always the open sourced blackdown java implementation.

So the closest thing I see to irony here is that in order to defend microsoft, you have to be totally ignorant to the everything, much like all of microsofts products.

http://www.blackdown.org

You see, while Microsoft clearly doesn't own ECMA C#, Sun owns the Java platform and large chunks of its implementation, with no free alternatives.

No free alternatives? Who is spreading FUD now?
http://www.kaffe.org/
http://www.japhar.org/
http://www.blackdown.org/java-linux.html
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/classpath.ht ml
http://gcc.gnu.org/java/

Sure, a lot of these projects are far behind the official Java in version and capabilities today, but if Sun would suddenly change the licensing or start to charge people for using Java, there are a huge amount of companies (IBM, Oracle, BEA...) with too much invested in Java, and a huge number of experienced Java programmers. Don't you think they would sponsor these projects to quickly get a viable open source alternative up and running?

If Sun were to release the Java (spec.) on an Open Source compatible license then we would be laughing. We wouldn't even need an implementation as there is one: blackdown.

Mono is shackled by Microsoft, Sun has at least blessed the open-source version of Java with a legit licence to use the API, I doubt Mono will ever get that.

pretty much complete for a JDK that's been out for at least 4 years? sounds about like the progress the wine folks are having. and the sun source code is openly available (anyone can download it); just the re-implementors can't risk taking a peek at it.

btw, i'm not sure about your free/open source implementations of java statement. eclipse/tomcat are not implementations of java, they're java applications that run on top of the jdk (java class library implementation). the main opensource jdk is the blackdown jdk which is a port of sun's jdk and is not free . it's basically a port of the sun source code to linux licensed to the blackdown folks specificly to port to linux. hell, linux distributors can't even include it in their distro w/o reprocussions from sun. sun wants to force microsoft to include the jre with their product, why not even allow the linux distributors to openly distribute it?

+1 for wanting sun releasing the jdk under a BSD-ish (netbeans/openoffice) type license. i'm not going to hold my breath though.

Could someone please explain why this is not already accomplished with the Blackdown project? I realize blackdown is specifically a linux implementation, but it's fully open source and their about page states, "The Blackdown project is based entirely on Java product source bases that have been licensed from Sun Microsystems." They're very up-do-date with the JDK and IIRC the project was initiated by IBM.

So is the argument that Sun should open up their JVM and libraries? Because from what I've heard and seen other JVMs like Blackdown perform quite well.

Depends on Sun? You don't want JRE from Sun? Download it from IBM (http://alphaworks.ibm.com/java).

Still wrong? Try Blackdown (http://www.blackdown.org/.

Still not satisfied? You could try running it with GCJ (licensed GPL, http://gcc.gnu.org/java/, and probably succeed after some tweaking.

--Coder

If you look in the Blackdown FAQ (link to first section), you will see that Blackdown is a port of java to linux, not an opensource version. They are quite clear on being a port of Suns JDK, and while I would have loved to try it out, I have never come across a source release of Blackdowns java.
You are however right that it is entirely possible to have an opensource implementation of java, like GNU classpath and gcc's gcj (class library and compiler/vm respectively). But just like WINE always lacks behind Windows, classpath is likely to lack behind the official java class library, especially if documentation is lacking (not something I can judge, but developing in java I do seem to recall occations where the API documentation from Sun was not too good, and I was only trying to use it - not trying to recreate it).

The benefit to Sun of GPL'ing their Java implementation would be expansion of their market influence. Right now, there aren't very many open source Java apps (comparitively speaking). This would change rapidly if a complete JVM/JDK could be included legally with every Linux/BSD distribution. Complete adoption of Java by the Open Source community would mean a sharp rise in the popularity of the language and this would help Sun tremendously.

Your best bet would be to try IBM's

What is the most trusted Java JVM for Linux or BSD systems? IBM JVM 1.3.1 "Black down".

Excuse me? You must be confusing the IBM JVM with the Blackdown JVM from blackdown.org, which is a specialised port of the Sun JVM to Linux.

Increasingly this is no longer the case, as sun continues to revise the Java API faster than a decent implementation can be produced.

Faster than a decent implementation can be produced? You're really exaggerating now:
Java has gone from 1.0 (Januari 1995) to 1.4.2 (June 2003, which was 9 months later than 1.4.1, September 2002) to 1.5 (alpha available now, not sure when scheduled for release, I thought the end of this year).
At this moment I can choose between installing Sun 1.4.2, blackdown 1.4.1 and ibm 1.4.1 I on my gentoo box. Then there are also JVMs like JRockit, which is also at 1.4.2.

The are also no major API changes between the point releases (1.4.1 for example added support for Webstart, 1.4.2 added WinXP and GTK look and feel), the rest are only bugfixes.

Blackdown has released J2SE 1.4.2 for AMD64 a few weeks ago, see http://www.blackdown.org/java-linux/java2-status/j dk1.4-status.html.

I'm sure I'm too late with this reply for anyone to see...but Sun is releasing a 64-bit Java JVM for the new AMD chips next summer that'll run under Windows, and perhaps Linux.

Did you tune the VM at all? I find this a bit difficult to believe. I run all sorts of rather complex, high traffic web apps with Java and I have never found a performance issue that couldn't be solved with a bit of application or VM tuning. If you are using default garbage collection on a large app you WILL have performance issues. Here's a good article on GC tuning

Or you could always compile your app into a platform specific binary, although, personally, I would rather just buy another server.

You can choose different thread models when using Sun's VM on Solaris, maybe that would help. I would also check out RedHat 9 which has the kernel 2.5 threading support back ported to a 2.4 kernel. You might also check out the Blackdown VM, which is compiled a little more agressivly than Sun's, also it has some Linux specifc stuff that may be applicable if you use that platform. Also maybe try IBM's VM, I used to use that back in the 1.3 days and it was noticably faster than Sun's 1.3 with default settings.

No was about it. Blackdown is a going concern, AAMOF if you want a recent JDK that works with a recent mozilla.org binary, you'll need a Blackdown JDK.

it only makes sense to create an open source version of the core platform.

I thought there were already open source java's out there...

I guess Blackdown and Kaffe are mirages.

A bridge between the open source community and the commercial software development world...

So apparently not Open Source.

Does Blackdown have any role in this ?

I've never heard of JBoss before, but it seems it will turn almost any J2SE into a J2EE. But where do I get my J2SE (a Java 2 Standard Edition, runtime environment, libraries, and compiler) so that it works correctly?

Right now, on my GNU/Linux system with a PowerPC CPU (a Macintosh), I'm running Blackdown Java (J2SE) 1.3.

Anonymous Coward wrote: It is real, effective, efficient and fit my need ;) In my case

1. Java is sometimes not real. Programs using the GUI (JFC/Swing) are not working. I can't get the latest version of Java 1.4, because its not ported to PowerPC.
2. Java is sometimes not effective. Java is my preferred programming language, and usually effective. It would help if I could use collections with generics, but once Java 1.5 is out providing this, it probably won't be ported to my platform.
3. Java is sometimes not efficient. Interpreted Java bytecodes are fast enough for me, but my platform does not provide JIT or HotSpot acceleration.

I am watching potential sources of ports (Blackdown, GNU Classpath, GCJ, and Jikes RVM) for emerging Java 1.4 or 1.5 that actually works. Until then I won't have working Java.

Anonymous Coward wrote: What MS fears the most is Linux + Java. Because it is a more powerfull that they can even provide. However in my case, working Java is an incentive for me to switch to an x86 computer with Microsoft Windows, in order to run Windows + Java.

I find those companies on this list of Java Licensees, so I doubt their implementations are independent. Neither is Blackdown, according to their FAQ. I would be a lot less wary of using one of the listed implementations of Java than using Microsoft's .Net, but Sun does still own Java and I'm still not aware of any completely independent implementations that are not way behind the official one.

The point is not whether it works on Linux, the point is whether there is an open specification. And of those, there are zillions: OpenML, QuickTime, Java Media Framework, GNOME Media Framework, aRts. And these are just some of the most ambitious ones.

Now, after reviewing those links, you'll probably say: "but none of these works! none of them is finished!". And that's exactly my point.

I see a good "multimedia framework" to be the same thing as programming using the GNU tools.

Yes. And that's where you would be wrong. It a completely different thing. One works with text and symbolic representation. The other works with audio and video. There is a reason, you know, why all graphical programming languages to date have failed to gain widespread acceptance: it just doesn't work very well.

Instead of seeing Yet Another video player in gstreamer, you should really be seeing another Mozilla. It's big. It's complicated. It's hard work. People ask what the point of it is. It will be awhile before any good results come out of it. But when(if) it bears fruit, you may well find yourself asking how you did without it.

Uh. While Mozilla is not actually a failure, -- owing more to some incredibly fortuitous circumstances (*cough AOL money cough*) than actual competency on the part of the development team -- Mozilla did fail to satisfy *almost every single goal* that it set out to accomplish. So, yes, why not compare to Mozilla? A slow, bloated, overbearing software project, that's years late? You don't even have to take my word for it: just ask Apple. Hell, ask the Mozilla team themselves: what is Phoenix other than an attempt to salvage Mozilla?

Truly, it's great that Mozilla exists, but the only reason why it's anywhere near useful right now is because the team, after years of overengineering, finally started to worry about how the thing was actually going to be used by actual people. Since that point (about 2 years ago), Mozilla has started to make some great leaps towards usefulness.

Which it is, or might as well be. Until gcj came along (and it's not there yet) there were no free implementations of Java, and any development you did could at any time have been razed had Sun decided not to give their JVM away for free.

Ummm...Blackdown?

http://www.blackdown.org/java-linux/ports.html

They were real good about porting to linux (x86) when sun was dragging it's feet.

And that's the reason why many Linux user prefer Blackdown JVM.

By the way, Sun's Linux JVM is not for Linux - it's only for Linux/x86. Blackdown's version of Linux JVM is for most of working Linux platforms: x86, PPC, Sparc, Arm.

I tried to play pool on yahoo games using sun java but the installation was very clunky. It would just lock up the computer until I installed the Blackdown version of Java.

In case it's not transparently obvious to everyone, I should point out that the above is complete FUD.

Anyone contemplating developing Java on Linux applications should read the following to set their mind at rest:

1. The list of already existing and completely open VM and class library ports at Kaffe.org. Sun can do nothing to restrict any of these clean-room developments, nor has it shown any sign of wishing to.

2. Sun's Community Source license. This explains the terms on which Sun's own code is shared. Note that this license has proven open enough for the Blackdown Linux port to be developed. Interestingly, the Blackdown group have listed what they would ideally want from Sun to keep their implementation fully compatible, and a "better definition" of the Java platform doesn't appear to be needed.

Attempts by Mono developers and other interested parties to discredit Java-on-Linux should be treated with great caution. Not only do they try to represent Sun and IBM as imposing more restrictions on open developments than Microsoft (presumably their status as actual open source contributors counts for nothing against the neutral and fair-dealing Redmond empire, well known for its 'embrace' of standards) but they deliberately misrepresent what parts of Dotnet are actually open and standardized. Any open app that uses a Dotnet GUI (Windows Forms or Web Forms) or database API (ADO.NET) is not using standard mechanisms - these APIs, and in fact over 1000 of the 1200 classes in Dotnet today, are entirely proprietary and are protected by patents.

Oh, and I didn't use the word "all" - et al translates as 'and others', a somewhat different meaning.

In case it's not transparently obvious to everyone, I should point out that the above is complete FUD.

Anyone contemplating developing Java on Linux applications should read the following to set their mind at rest:

1. The list of already existing and completely open VM and class library ports at Kaffe.org. Sun can do nothing to restrict any of these clean-room developments, nor has it shown any sign of wishing to.

2. Sun's Community Source license. This explains the terms on which Sun's own code is shared. Note that this license has proven open enough for the Blackdown Linux port to be developed. Interestingly, the Blackdown group have listed what they would ideally want from Sun to keep their implementation fully compatible, and a "better definition" of the Java platform doesn't appear to be needed.

Attempts by Mono developers and other interested parties to discredit Java-on-Linux should be treated with great caution. Not only do they try to represent Sun and IBM as imposing more restrictions on open developments than Microsoft (presumably their status as actual open source contributors counts for nothing against the neutral and fair-dealing Redmond empire, well known for its 'embrace' of standards) but they deliberately misrepresent what parts of Dotnet are actually open and standardized. Any open app that uses a Dotnet GUI (Windows Forms or Web Forms) or database API (ADO.NET) is not using standard mechanisms - these APIs, and in fact over 1000 of the 1200 classes in Dotnet today, are entirely proprietary and are protected by patents.

Oh, and I didn't use the word "all" - et al translates as 'and others', a somewhat different meaning.

And the biggest plugin annoyance of all time....installing a JRE. For the non-geek user this is just a pain. They don't want to have to download and install this as well as the browser. It makes things too complicated. I wonder if an open source JRE like Blackdown.org's JRE with the Mozilla could be included with Mozilla.

Also, Shockwave Flash has to be installed afterwards as well. IE on the other hand includes this in their browser. IE basically works out of the box, Mozilla doesn't. And the auto-plugin-installer crap doesn't work perfectly yet.

We've had a couple of people in my lab looking into handheld devices with Java solutions. The fact is, many of the devices and OS's that claim to support Java only support a subset of the packages.

Since we wanted to use the Corba classes in Java, many of the options we looked at simply didn't have that implemented. And few (if any) devices actually support Java 2 1.3.x, which we needed to use the Swing classes.

In the end (and I know the Slashdot crowd will love to hear this), we snagged an iPaq 3670 and installed ARM Linux on it, which allowed us to install Blackdown's Java-Linux runtime environment. Beautiful.

1. Any Language. [...] I know the Java bytecode isn't tied to Java the language, but realistically, that's the way Sun as limited it.

The other purported advantages you list for C#/.NET/CLR/MSIL are similarly specious. Large-fraction-of-native-speed, cross-platform, secure distribution is already available with the Java-the-platform, and the other advantages you mention are at least as easy with Java (Java-the-language and Java-the-platform) as with .NET. Further, free Java/JVM implementations are mature and widely available (from, for example, IBM, Blackdown, TransVirtual (Kaffe), and Sun, for varying definitions of "free").

.NET is not an example of Microsoft "getting it." .NET is an example of Microsoft continuing not to get it -- reinventing the wheel, rather than building on perfectly good existing systems.

--

All good points about the SPARC hardware.

Or not.

"No surprises on chipsets, disk controllers, etc."

Granted, resolving bizarre HW interactions is one of the "joys" of running x86 systems. All in all, though, if you use reasonably consistantly configured systems you can get more bang for your buck out of an x86. You even admit this in your second point.

"No need for klunky KVM switches."

I've got to give you at partial credit here. Although Linux does support console on the serial port, so if that "rack mount device" you speak of is a basic term-server/serial port switcher, you can manage your x86 Linux boxen the same damn way.

In your final paragraph you also state:

"The main criteria is whether we need a JVM ... those running Java are stuck with Solaris for now"

Again my response must be: Or not. The Blackdown Project has Sparc ports. 1.2.2 is available, though I don't believe that 1.3 is yet. Frankly, with the exception of HP-UX, Slowaris ... er, I mean Solaris ... is one of the most painfull platforms to "write once, run anywhere" on. IMHO, of course.

I will grant you this, though: x86 equipment, on the whole, is drek compared to most Sparc based stuff. It just isn't designed as robustly. Kind of like comparing a Nissan to a Toyota. I love my Nissan, and certainly get better bang for the buck with it. No regrets at all. However, one drive in the eqiv Toy would reveal an obvious difference in robustness, design and fit & finish.

--
If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.

All good points about the SPARC hardware.

Or not.

"No surprises on chipsets, disk controllers, etc."

Granted, resolving bizarre HW interactions is one of the "joys" of running x86 systems. All in all, though, if you use reasonably consistantly configured systems you can get more bang for your buck out of an x86. You even admit this in your second point.

"No need for klunky KVM switches."

I've got to give you at partial credit here. Although Linux does support console on the serial port, so if that "rack mount device" you speak of is a basic term-server/serial port switcher, you can manage your x86 Linux boxen the same damn way.

In your final paragraph you also state:

The main criteria is whether we need a JVM ... those running Java are stuck with Solaris for now"

Again my response must be: Or not. The Blackdown Project has Sparc ports. 1.2.2 is available, though I don't believe that 1.3 is yet. Frankly, with the exception of HP-UX, Slowaris ... er, I mean Solaris ... is one of the most painfull platforms to "write once, run anywhere" on. IMHO, of course.

I will grant you this, though: x86 equipment, on the whole, is drek compared to most Sparc based stuff. It just isn't designed as robustly. Kind of like comparing a Nissan to a Toyota. I love my Nissan, and certainly get better bang for the buck with it. No regrets at all. However, one drive in the eqiv Toy would reveal an obvious difference in robustness, design and fit & finish.

The only problem with Java on Linux is the Blackdown JDK isn't as well maintained as all that. Their JDK1.1 compiler segfaults with RH7, meaning I can't compile applets on this machine (because most browsers only inherently have 1.1 support). I am an avid Linux user (been my desktop for two and a half years now) and would have to say that Java is pretty great.

Juergen
--
Juergen Kreileder, Blackdown Java-Linux Team
http://www.blackdown.org/java-linux.html
JVM'01: http://www.usenix.org/events/jvm01/

Please give some respect to the Blackdown guys and their fabulous work. Thanks to them, I can run my Advanced Imaging servlets on Linux!

And by the way, most of the ISPs who offer Servlet hosting run Linux. Isn't that enough proof?

Sun gets out the most important versions (whatever that means) first. Windows has been released way earlier than their own Solaris versions. Linux is a bit behind, but not much. Blackdown makes sure Linux does not only mean Linux x86 while IBM has very good Linux tools of its own to offer.

I'm not so sure about Kaffe's progress. The website doesn't get updated often, but doesn't have to mean something. Anyone?

Juergen
Blackdown Java-Linux Team

Juergen
Blackdown Java-Linux Team

Juergen
Blackdown Java-Linux Team