Sun's Simon Phipps Answers ESR On Java

comforteagle writes "Sun's Chief Technology Officer Simon Phipps has answered Eric Raymond's open letter calling on Sun to open source Java." In the quoted response, Phipps says (condensed) "I'd say this is 100 per cent rant... His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies... It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch."

Comments

foresight

[exekewtable]

Shame they can't see the writing on the wall

Re:foresight

[Yoda2]

Shame I can't see the article - /.ed already!

Re:foresight

[Gherald]

Here's what I've gotten so far from doing a "view source" while the page is loading. Not sure if it's the whole article, but it's something:

Sun has offered a frank response to the open letter from Eric S, Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative, in which he called on Sun to make its Java platform Open Source and described the company's Open Source strategy as 'spotty' and 'confused'.

'I'd say this is 100 per cent rant,' Sun's Chief Technology Evangelist, Simon Phipps told us. 'His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies.'

Raymond's first line of attack was to dispute whether CEO Scott McNealy's claim that 'the open-source model is our friend,' has any substance when at the same time Sun is filling the coffers of Linux litigator SCO through licensing deals and still keeps Java under 'tight control'.

'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

(I was a bit leary of running this story initially, but have been able to confirm that it is legitimate through sources at Java.net - Ed.)

Re:foresight

[Losat]

And people wonder why slashdot posters never read the article before posting. We try; we want to; but we kill the poor article host.

Re:foresight

[dnoyeb]

"Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin."

P.S. The lameness filter aborted this biblical quote in its proper form :)

Re:foresight

[socrates32]

Try: here

Re:foresight

[RetroGeek]

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it :-)

Re:foresight

[dspeyer]

He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

I didn't believe it until the article finished loading for me. Yes, Phipps really did say that. Forgive my doubt.

Is he saying that everyone lies to analysts so that's all right? Is he admitting that Sun lies to the open-source community, and that we shouldn't try to find out the truth? Is he saying that all statements are true, but we should stick with the ones that are meant for us?

Seriously, if Sun has been telling different listeners contradictory things, that's bad. If they think it's all right, that's worse.

I love Simon

[Anonymous Coward]

He's great on American Idol. I bet he really rips into ESR!

and the answer is....

[twoslice]

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies...

Re:and the answer is....

[Anonymous Coward]

How does the OSS community treat SCO? It rants and raves while SCO's stock price goes up. Meanwhile, it rants and raves at Sun while Sun's stock price goes down. Meanwhile it rants and raves at MS, whose stock price continues to go up.

Were I not aware of the problems with mistakenly assuming causation where none exists, I'd say it is better to be an enemy than a friend.

I am aware of that pitfall, though, so I will simply say that all the OSS community does is rant and rave - everything else is dependant on the entities' own actions and choices.

Re:and the answer is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction to your statement. Should perhaps be:

how it treats its litigious bastards.

Re:and the answer is....

[Short Circuit]

No, that should be: "If this is the way Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its litigious bastards.

But that doesn't sound quite right, does it?

Re:and the answer is....

[DrSkwid]

try this one

MSFT vs LNUX

btw. Sun's stock has been steadily rising since Q4 '02

Re:and the answer is....

[LordKazan]

Even more interesting is LNUX vs SCOX very interesting.....

Re:and the answer is....

[va3atc]

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies... [sco.com]

Page not found

Re:and the answer is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's another look at LNUX vs
Microsoft
Sun
The SCO Group

Now, looking at RHAT vs
Microsoft
Sun
The SCO Group

Are y'all angling to be "market analysts" for DeustchBank?

Re:and the answer is....

[muckdog]

Bad example. VA linux is really just a hardware distributor. Take a look at how Redhat has done for a more accurate picture. RHAT vs. MSFT

Re:and the answer is....

[dtfinch]

You guys really need to update your "litigious bastards" links. www.sco.com is no longer in google's index, so linking to it does nothing. You need to link to sco.com or www.thescogroup.com for the campaign to become effective again. Now go tell your friends.

Re:and the answer is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Woah, look at that. You're a troll too! Maybe I should stop stalking you. ...... Nah!

Re:and the answer is....

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean NXDOMAIN.

Re:and the answer is....

[Anonymous Coward]

It would have been so much better if that were:

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies, the litigious bastards...

What we need is...

[Stradenko]

An open letter from RMS to clarify the situation and convince Mr. Phipps that the free software community loves him and that the open source community does not accurately represent our opinions.

Re:What we need is...

[Short Circuit]

hehehe. I don't know if that'd help clarify or obfuscate the distinction between the two. It'd certainly keep most editors from publishing a story on it.

(If it gives them a headache, why risk passing it on to their subscribers?)

Re:What we need is...

[kfg]

Whoooooooooooooosh!

Yes, that was the sound of the joke going right over most reader's heads.

Making your parenthetical point I suppose.

KFG

Re:What we need is...

[lordDogma]

RMS is a total dweeb. He endorses Dennis Kucinich? I understand the whole free software thing, but his communist lite (TM) political ideology is insane.

Sun doing a good job?

[spankalee]

I used to want Sun to open source Java, but they've actually been a pretty good steward and I quite like what they're doing with it. The Java Community Process seems to be working.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[dnoyeb]

Open sourcing 'Java' is an issue of binaries. It's a misnomer in fact. Its not really Java that ESR is calling for to be open sourced. Its Sun's implementation of Java, their JVM. At least as far as I can tell that is what he is calling for.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Short Circuit]

Well, you can certainly see the source if you use something like JBuilder, and an exception occurs within the JRE libraries. (You're shown a screen of decompiled code where the error occured.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Lysol]

Yah, honestly, I don't know how OS'ing Java would help.

While the JCP isn't as loose as developing the Linux kernel and other OS projects, it still has contributions from the major industry players - who have a vested interest to see Java go forward, not back - as well as small companies and individuals.

Proclaiming everything OS isn't necessairly the prize at the end of the day. If you look at M$'s efforts to ECMAize .NET and C#, it still doesn't hold off the threat of patent infingement for Mono and dotGnu. M$ can claim it's an open standard, but if the threat of litigation hangs over ones head, then it's probable safe to reason that developing a compatible version might not be a good thing to do.

I love Free and Open Source software. In fact, I make a decent living working on projects that use it. And most, if not all, of my projects use Java as well. Personally, I don't think something like Java will gain any benefits from following the route ESR proposes. By setting the Java source code free will fragment it more than ever. And for an industry that needs to hold off M$ as much as possible, I think this would be a bad move.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true. My fear, that if made open source, we'll have tons of branches, excessive bloat, etc. Just look at the current state of XFree86.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Ogerman]

Personally, I don't think something like Java will gain any benefits from following the route ESR proposes. By setting the Java source code free will fragment it more than ever. And for an industry that needs to hold off M$ as much as possible, I think this would be a bad move.

The benefit to Sun of GPL'ing their Java implementation would be expansion of their market influence. Right now, there aren't very many open source Java apps (comparitively speaking). This would change rapidly if a complete JVM/JDK could be included legally with every Linux/BSD distribution. Complete adoption of Java by the Open Source community would mean a sharp rise in the popularity of the language and this would help Sun tremendously.

Keep in mind that if Sun GPL'ed their Java implementations, it would not mean a true loss of control. They would still own the Java and related trademarks. So even if somebody forked Sun's GPL code, it couldn't be called Java. And, in like manner, Sun would still control the specifications defining what "Java" is -- they would still have the right to certify what is and is not "Java". In reality, the situation would be no different than today, where 3rd parties are welcome to write their own Java implementations using the open specification.

So in the end, both ESR and Phipps are each right on certain things. But Sun has no advantage in keeping their JVM/JDK sources under a license more restrictive than GPL. The other question perhaps, is whether something legally prevents Sun from changing the license -- 3rd party code, etc.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that it makes hypocrits out of the OSS zealots who use it...

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[fupeg]

The benefit to Sun of GPL'ing their Java implementation would be expansion of their market influence. Right now, there aren't very many open source Java apps (comparitively speaking). This would change rapidly if a complete JVM/JDK could be included legally with every Linux/BSD distribution. Complete adoption of Java by the Open Source community would mean a sharp rise in the popularity of the language and this would help Sun tremendously.

How would including a JVM with every Linux distro help Sun? Do you reall think there are people who say "let's not do this open source project in Java because its not included with XYZLinux 9.3." Java has had a huge following on enterprise Linux servers. When Microsoft was trying to attack Linux, one of their "studies" was on TCO of a .NET/Windows stack vs. J2EE/Linux. They picked J2EE/Linux becuase it's such a popular combination. Look at some of the optimized JDKs built for Linux such as Blackdown and JRockit. So are you referring to desktop Linux? That's such a small marketshare, and again it's not like most Linux desktop users don't know where to get a JVM. So it's hard to see how there would be JVMs on Linux machines that currently do not have JVMs. If it had no change on the number of Linux users who have a JVM, then how would it make Linux open source software developers more likely to write things in Java?

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[opos]

There is an interesting history of programming languages. By and large (with a few exceptions), languages designed by industry to meet perceived needs are proprietary and have, over the years failed. The major exception is Cobol. But where is PL/1, ADDA etc. On the other hand, languages that were designed to solve problems, and typically prototyped by a very small group, have succeeded. Consider Fortran, Basic, C, Perl, PHP and the list goes on. Perceived-needs-driven languages tend to be overly rich (too many verbs) and have steep learning curves whereas problem-driven languages tend to have only the essential verbs, are readily extended with modules and tend have small learning curves (printf "Hello world\n").

If Sun opens the Java source code, there will be forks - but my speculation is that the forks will move toward a less rich language for the masses that is an 80% solution. The 100% solution will require modular extentions while leaving the core untouched. A new standard JAVA-like language will likely arise - there will be back compatibility problems etc - but the end result will likely be a more generic platform independent language tool whose features are derived from the real problems it solves. It will live because it will enable a large number of non-experts to join us in problem solving.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Jord]

Or you can just open up that zip file that comes with every distribution of Sun's java named src.zip.

Of course this argument is over the binary java, javac, etc. The source code to the libraries have always been available for review. You don't need a bloated IDE to view the source code of the libraries.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[dot-magnon]

I agree with this. But by reading the article, I don't think Sun has that much of my respect when regarding Open Source Software. They say that their reasons for not Open Sourcing Java is that they've already done their job by USING Linux, not creating anything. I know they've created too, but that plus the IBM statement makes him look childish in my opinion.

I read ESRs letter and found out I agreed totally. It doesn't nescessarily need to be GPL, but something just permissive enough to keep Java as Java but allowing open development. I also believe that Sun's Java implementation is superior, and for that reason there is nothing to be done with the fact that it's what the Open Community needs, not a semi-finished implementation of it.

My views only.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[ajagci]

I used to want Sun to open source Java, but they've actually been a pretty good steward and I quite like what they're doing with it. The Java Community Process seems to be working.

Working in what way? In the sense of producing a language that works for some people? Sure. But the same can be said for Microsoft and VisualBasic.

The real problem is that the Java core is heavily covered by Sun intellectual property (restrictions on the specifications, patents, copyrights). That means that all this wonderful free work that the JCP puts in around the periphery ends up effectively contributing only to a Sun-controlled platform.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[ajagci]

Sun needs to do two things.

First, they need to open up the Java standard unconditionally, so that anybody who wants to implement it can do so without restrictions or interference from Sun; right now, the Java 2 platform specifications are covered by licenses, and conforming implementations would probably run into several Sun patents.

Second, because Java has become so bloated and Sun has effectively killed off competing efforts, it is far too late to hope for independent implementations of the Java platform, so if Java is ever going to be an "open standard" in any meaningful sense, Sun has to open source their JVM.

Of course, at this point, I hope they won't. I think technically, Java has become a lost cause. It's easier to replace it than to fix it.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Aumaden]

Open sourcing 'Java' is an issue of binaries. It's a misnomer in fact. Its not really Java that ESR is calling for to be open sourced. Its Sun's implementation of Java, their JVM. At least as far as I can tell that is what he is calling for.

Many years back, I had a hand in the development of AT&T's SVR4 and saw an interesting side of ownership.

At the time (late 80's) there was some fierce headbutting going on between Unix International (UI) and OSF; each promoting their own flavor of Unix. UI was pushing SVR4 and OSF was pushing a SVR3 derivative. One of the not-so-public discussions between the opposing camps consisted of UI offering OSF the SVR4 source code. AT&T did not want ownership of the code. Here's why...

The owner of the code maintains the base from which everyone else creates their own ports. As a result, the base had to remain more-or-less architecture agnostic. This meant that the Unix that AT&T's sold was neither the fastest or sleekest in the marketplace.

Granted, they could have created a second development team for the version they sold, but that was deemed too costly at the time and there was concern that it would be perceived that they were distributing inferior code to their licensees.

So, it may not be in Sun's best interest to open source Java until there is someone willing to develop and maintain the porting base.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[ajagci]

Sun has to open source their JVM.

Oh, dear, I did it too, referring to the platform as the "JVM". No, it's not sufficient for them to open source their JVM; if they want to make Java an open platform, at this point, they would have to open source their entire JDK 1.5 implementation, without conditions or strings attached. But, for the reasons I already mentioned, I don't think a truly open Java is even desirable. Java should just get replaced instead.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

We have a GPLed JVM. What we need are GPLed versions of all those class libraries.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[iksrazal_br]

"Right now, there aren't very many open source Java apps (comparitively speaking). "

Apache Jakarta has very many open source projects - such as tomcat - which is widely popular. Same with Eclipse which is now part of the Rational toolset. Plus some really cool ones too like Axis, the james email server, and xml security.

I would love to see java open sourced. But I tend to believe that the people don't use java because it is not, wouldn't use it even if it were.

And credit must be given to the JCP. Some really good things have come out of it.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Ogerman]

Do you reall think there are people who say "let's not do this open source project in Java because its not included with XYZLinux 9.3"

Yes. This sentiment runs fairly strong in the Open Source community. Many would like to use Java but do not because their software will then not be picked up by the major distros. This is a perfectly legitimate issue.

So are you referring to desktop Linux? That's such a small marketshare

It won't be a small 'marketshare' for much longer, and secondly, the use of Java for desktop applications is finally showing potential. Free Software on the desktop needs Java and Java needs Free Software on the desktop. Enterprise Java is going quite strong, but it's not enough to support Sun.

and again it's not like most Linux desktop users don't know where to get a JVM. So it's hard to see how there would be JVMs on Linux machines that currently do not have JVMs.

Wrong. Most of today's new desktop Linux users are clueless folk, not developers. They use whatever comes with their distro. If JVM is not included, they go without. Look at it this way: why isn't Java more popular on the Windows desktop? Because Microsoft doesn't include it by default! (of course this is for anti-competitive reasons, not licensing)

Sun should also consider this risk: If a third party Open Source project implements a compliant JVM and JDK, it will quickly become the dominant Java implementation on all Linux/BSD desktops and perhaps even beyond. (especially if it becomes faster than Sun's JVM with refinement) And it won't be called Java -- it'll just be compatible with the spec. So much for mindshare. This is the inevitable outcome in the next 5 years if Sun does not GPL as much as possible of their own implementation. Here's to hoping they do so we don't have to needlessly reinvent the wheel.

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[ninejaguar]

I agree with your assessment with just a minor clarification on the following point.

So even if somebody forked Sun's GPL code, it couldn't be called Java.

The nature of the GPL prevents permanent forks due to the enforced availability of the code. Were someone to add something to their implementation of Java, Sun or anyone else would be able to maintain compatability with ease. The same situation exists with Linux. Permanent forking isn't an issue with the GPL. In fact, temporary forks would simply be part of the evolutionary process.

Sun would have everything to gain from GPL'ing Java, while still maintaing the trademark just as Linus Torvalds does. The inclusion of Java with Linux as Linux makes their incursions into Microsoft territory would only be to its benefit. Who knows, maybe their stock performance would even eventually surpass Red Hat's?

= 9J =

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Tukla]

Java should just get replaced

By?

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Java should just get replaced

By?

Python

Re:Sun doing a good job?

[Tukla]

Mod parent up +1 Funny.

ESR is primiadonna

[bsDaemon]

has he done anything actually /useful/ other than fetchmail? why is fetchmail his only example in all of his writings? and saying that CatB is responsible for the Netscape decision is only slightly more vailid than saying that "The Manifesto of the Communist Party" was responsible for the 1916 Easter Rising.
that said, "geeks with guns" is kind of cool. however, ESR is not cool. I piss on him and his "CatB"

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Captain Tenille]

Sure he's done useful stuff, like the "Sex Tips for Geeks" (has anyone actually ever used those) and remaking the Jargon File to update the hacker image to fit himself.

OK, you're right. He's pretty useless. At least he likes Jaegermeister, I hear.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[SFEley]

has he done anything actually /useful/ other than fetchmail?

Yes. He's one of those helpful fairies that most open source programmers don't really believe in, but who sometimes sneak into their workshops at night to finish cobbling their shoes. These mythical creatures are sometimes called "documenters."

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[EricWright]

He wrote the original guidebook for nethack. Yes, it's true... freaked me out when I first saw it, but here's the header from doc/Guidebook.txt of the nethack-3.4.3 package available at www.nethack.org:

A Guide To The Mazes of Menace
(Guidebook for NetHack)

Eric S. Raymond
(Extensively edited and expanded for 3.4)

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[T-Ranger]

A few things actually, beyond Fetchmail.

The Jargon Dictionary.
Founding member of the OSI.
A large number of HOWTOs

Ok, no one huge earth shattering project. An while I cant find it now, in one of the Fetchmail history docs, he readily admits to being a better maintainer then coder.

Even if he was a complete non-coder, The Jargon Dictionary alone would be enough for him to be 'one of the tribe', and worth listening too. But he has managed a not insignificant tool.

But all of that is nothing compared to his work with OSI. Even before that, his non-technical guidance and writings were immensely helpful to the community. Netscape/Mozilla was one of (if not the) first example of closed source being let free. And its still one if the biggest examples.

ESR may have a bit of a primiadonna attitude, but compared to RMS he is humble as they get.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

"...slightly more vailid than saying that "The Manifesto of the Communist Party" was responsible for the 1916 Easter Rising."

Um, you're in for a surprise. Crack a few books.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[byronius]

He also wrote bogofilter, a very useful bayesian filter.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[vondo]

ESR may have a bit of a primiadonna attitude, but compared to RMS he is humble as they get.

I don't agree. RMS (who I am no big fan of) certainly has strong and unrelenting views, but Raymond is much bigger into self-promotion than RMS is. Plus, as the original poster points out, RMS has done a lot more for the open (small caps) software movement than Raymond has, so I'm more inclined to cut him slack.

Raymond seems as interested in getting his name in lights as helping "the cause."

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[madpierre]

Slightly off topic but ...
This book (i'm currenty reading) should be of interest to Geeks looking for sex.

Growing up With Lucy
How to Build an Android in 20 Easy Steps
By Steve Grand.

Just a thought ;)

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[HisMother]

> The Jargon Dictionary alone would be enough for him to be 'one of the tribe', and worth listening too. He's widely considered to have fucked up the Jargon File, mostly due to his huge ego and lack of respect for history.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[TALlama]

At least he likes Jaegermeister, I hear.
So he's useful as a bad-beer disposal service, then?

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Steepe]

I must respectfully disagree. RMS is 100% into promoting GNU. A few years back I had a web hosting company which offered free web hosting and FTP access for open source projects. I wrote him to see if he wanted to post it on FSF.org if anyone wanted free hosting. he wrote back a month or so later saying that he would only post it if I canged every reference to linux on the entire sight to GNU/Linux. Thats all well and good if thats his belief, but I could have helped a lot of projects get off the ground (before sourceforge) but he was too into himself to let me.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[T-Ranger]

Ah yes. I remember the interviews with ESR where he refused to answer any questions about Linux unless the interviewer said OSS/Linux.

ESR no longer accepts invitations for speaking engagements. When he did, he said he was prepared to sleep on a couch. Fly him in (coach) and pay for his meals, but he was prepared to help out just about anyone. Keynote speakers usually cost tens of thousands of dollars, and sure as hell demand first class tickets, a hotel suite, and fine dining.

Not that RMS asks/demands this treatment. But ESR doesn't act like most people bent on self-promotion and self-gratification..

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

Beer? What's beer got to do with proper German herb schnapps?)

And if you do mix beer and Jagermeister, please don't tell me.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Drey]

The Jargon File wasn't originally his and many people consider what he did to it a corruption of the original. Here's an interesting site about ESR's contributions to it, Linux, etc.

http://esr.1accesshost.com/

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

> Founding member of the OSI.

Oh, please. That's like saying that I'm the President, CEO, and Founder of Anonymous Coward International. Anyone can found a club with 1 member.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[hikerhat]

Don't be a wanker. And why do posts like yours - that are clearly false - always get a +5 interesting? Since when are blatant lies interesting? Besides fetchmail, ESR has contributed to the linux kernel, GNOME, python, nethack, EMACS, SourceForge, Texinfo, the PNG libraries your browser is using to render all those pretty pictures after the whole gif thing, and no doubt a lot more. He's written books, FAQs, documentation, etc. He gained the ear of executives in the computer industry. Go ahead and grep the files on any flavor of unix, commercial or free, and ESR is one of the few names that is almost guaranteed to come up.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Jason Earl]

Fetchmail is the application that ESR is most well known for, but it's not the one that he has done the most work on. He simply used it as an example in CatB. Pick up any book on programming and you are likely to find examples. These examples are generally trivial, but the book wouldn't be the same without them. CatB was instrumental in explaining how Linux had become such a useful tool in so little time, fetchmail was simply a contrived example to prove the point.

As for the rest of ESR's hacker credentials. Well the initials ESR show up quite a bit in the software that I tend to use. Huge portions of Emacs were done by him (at one point he was the single largest contributor besides RMS, I don't know if that is true today), ESR also has credits in Python, the Linux kernel and piles of other projects that lots of people use everyday (like Nethack or bogofilter).

Here's a more comprehensive list of the ESR's work. Don't forget to click on the "projects" link for work that isn't classified as "software (termcap/terminfo database maintainer, for example, or the fact that he wrote the former Sunsite's Trove software). If you can honestly read that list of software and still come to the conclusion that ESR has done "nothing," then I would love to see your long list of Free Software accomplishments.

Don't get me wrong. I don't always agree with ESR, but I at least know enough about him to know better than to dismiss his credentials as a hacker.

Besides, on this ESR is right. Sun's Java desktop is indicative of the staggering amount of truly good stuff that is coming out of the Free Software community. Free Software hackers want to support Sun in its fight against Microsoft, but they aren't interested in using Sun's non-free Java language to do it. The funny part of Sun's Java Desktop is that there is essentially no Java involved. In fact, some of the same folks that wrote the Gnome desktop that comprises the bulk of Sun's Java desktop are right now working feverishly to finish off the first version of Mono, a .NET-alike for Linux. If Java was Free Software there would be a lot less incentive to do this, but Java isn't Free, and so the Mono hackers are cooking up a set of tools that can take its place for Free Software hackers.

What's worse, it's not like Sun can honestly say that they don't want to Free Java for commercial reasons. Java is currently available as a free download. Sun doesn't really make any money from Java.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[beforewisdom]

ESR may have a bit of a primiadonna attitude, but compared to RMS he is humble as they get.

I only met RMS once, but from that experience I would not call him a primadonna.

He comes across as fairly rational...just uncompromising in his beliefs and agenda. Like it or not, that is what it takes for a new movement. Hey, he has beliefs to be uncompromising about.

He could use a little work on the methods he is using to fight for those beliefs, but none of us is perfect.

Steve

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

Never drank Jagermeister, have you? If you had, you'd know it isn't beer, but actually a fairly potent liqueur.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you think GNU is RMS, but for those of us with a decent grasp of not being stupid, can differentiate between self-aggrandization and the promotion of an organization. RMS certainly seeks credit for the GNU project and its boring ideology, but his self-love is comparatively nonexistent to that of ESR's. ESR has no grand movement that he created and therefore seeks to attribute credit to, prefering to attempt to usurp some authority over the entire base of free software developers and users, and credit himself. He's an attention whore. That doesn't make RMS sane.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think a relative nobody, that has very little useful contribution to a movement he's been affixed as a spokeperson to, being willing to fly anywhere and sleep on a couch (claims, mind you) acts like someone that is bent on self-promotion? He wants people to associate him with free software, and he claims to be willing to do anything to get it. Sounds precisely like someone bent on self-promotion. ESR doesn't know anything about writing good software, he hasn't had any interesting ideas about free software, and frankly he's a terrible speaker. What do you think he has to offer an audience, except himself?

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[JavaCreator]

I would expect that the Java Desktop is currently at the equiv. of rev. 0.3 compared to the vision. Do you really think Sun would do a desktop without completely integrating Java into it as a first class citizen? (look at the name!)

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[mikehunt]

Eric is more than a primadonna, he's also a gun nut.

This is Eric :

Photo

He admits he's a gun nut. Please read what Eric says about his guns; especially the second sentence:

Rig

This man is a nutter, plain and simple. I guess his previous employers understood he was a loose cannon - that's why they gave him the push after his stupid "SUE ME RIAA" stunts.

I never understood what gave Eric the supposed right to stand up as an "Open Source Leader" in the first place.

This is not the first time that Eric has shot his mouth off, and it won't be the last. The only problem is that some people seem to take him seriously...

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Charlotte]

The parent was correct, Java desktop is just a name.

Sun does this kind of thing a lot, it confuses their customers into thinking they actually have something going there. They don't. For instance, ask them about a SunRay client for the Java Desktop or about VNC capability in the SunRay server).

Sun is going the way of the dodo. The selling power of Sun used to be their good desktops which shared a hardware platform with the servers (so no need to compile separate software trees for servers and clients). Now all that remains is their desktop exit strategy. Thank god they released the V*80 server series or they'd be dead already.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[sdcharle]

and saying that CatB is responsible for the Netscape decision is only slightly more vailid than saying that "The Manifesto of the Communist Party" was responsible for the 1916 Easter Rising.

Actually there's a funny bit in 'RevolutionOS' (the movie) where ESR goes on about how influential CatB was on the Netscape decision, then they cut to a former Netscape guy and he says 'well, it's one of the things we read, sure, but that was about it'.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Ozan]

At least he likes Jaegermeister, I hear.

Does that qualify someone over there in the U.S.? Because here it is very much seen as a drink for accountants in their fifties.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

"Small enough to conceal but has excellent stopping power" describes two design goals for a handgun. Your vague attempt at ad hominem will only work with people who already believe that tools to make the individual more capable do not promote freedom, but why would such people even be interested in OSS?

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you know what they say. Those who can, do. Those who can't, document.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

I do the club scene a lot, some say I am a good dancer. I enjoy having a few drinks, usually ale or mead, and I have been known to cause a scene now and then...

Eric paused, breathing heavily. He'd never done this before and he wanted to make sure all of his best qualities were included in this email.

I am a geek, to be frank, and I enjoy hacking UNIX and maintaining Open Source programs such as Felchmale^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HFetchmail and a bevy of FAQs regarding 386 sound internals and role-playing games. I've been doing this for 15 years though I've never held a job in my life.

Eric wondered if this woman he had found on match.com would be impressed with his talents. He decided to put more detail into the message.

I recently drove 24 hours straight, with but two stops for gasoline, from Pennsylvania to Kansas City in an effort to destroy my two arch-nemeses. I would have succeeded except that I blew a head gasket as I was about to shoot one of them from my moving car on Route 69. I am an excellent shot and love guns in general.

ESR pondered for a moment, wringing out his soaked handkerchief, and continued with his typing.

So what languages do you know? I fancy myself quite an accomplished amateur linguist and know Anglo-Saxon and Old Icelandic inside and out. I often compose little riddles in them for fun and mental exercise. In fact, I'll include one for you now!

Chewing on his tongue and squinting, Eric pushed his mind into overdrive and produced a beauty of a riddle on the spot:

Windeth I towarde the skye
I haveth eye but blinde am I

Pleased with his linguistic talents, undoubtedly matched by no one, Eric then asked his potential love-conquest:

Can you guess the answer to that? In case you can not, the correct answer is "my erect penis." I hope you enjoyed that; I do this sort of thing all the time.

Eric exhaled slowly and rubbed his belly. It was growling and no doubt wanted its nightly bottle of Jgermeister. He decided to finish up the email in anticipation of the coming alcoholic stupor.

Well I don't want to make this email too long -- I have a lot of responsibilities in real life to deal with. My role-playing group is coming over and we are spending the next week holed up in the forest near my home in character playing out a possible scenario from Beowulf. I need to get dressed up and I can not find my bear-claw mittens.

Eric wondered how to wrap up the email, something that would hook the lady on him and make her want more...

I hope we can meet and have sex. Despite my cerebral palsy, I am a monster in the sack! Maybe you'll get to see for yourself, LOLOLOL! ;-)

Love,
Eric S. Raymond

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

T-ranger wrote:
>
> Even if he was a complete non-coder, The Jargon Dictionary alone would be enough for him to be
> 'one of the tribe', and worth listening too. But he has managed a not insignificant tool.

You mean he has managed to be a not-insignificant tool.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Jason Earl]

Which is all the more reason to release Java under a dual GPL plus some commercial license. The Gnome hackers would love to be able to integrate Java more directly into the Gnome framework, but because of licensing issues this simply cannot be done (or at least it becomes much more difficult). For example, I can embed a Python interpretter in any GPLed application I choose (or any commercial application for that matter). But if I want to write an application that is extensible in Java, well I have to write the whole thing in Java.

Or take the Java-Gnome folks. They are currently primarily working towards being able to compile Java applications to native binaries with gcj and GNU classpath. They are about as excited about Java as a platform as Sun is about .NET as a platform. Sure, they support a few JVMs, but not well.

Like I said, the Free Software community would be happy to help, because Java really is pretty cool, but they can't because of the licensing issues. If Sun had a good reason for their reluctance that would be one thing, but they don't really have a good reason.

For example, one of the reasons that is sometimes forwarded for Sun keeping Java entirely in house is that they are afraid that if they free Java that it will split into divergent paths. However, Python, Perl, PHP, and the rest of the Free Software languages haven't had this problem. Heck, the closest we have come to a split in a development language was the gcc-egcs split. Java, on the other hand, is *currently* being split apart. IBM is making a big deal of SWT, and the GNU folks are making pretty good headway with their gcj compiler. gcj already compiles most software that people actually use (since there are so few GUI Java apps), and the is a GTK-Swing that is also making real headway. Not to mention the crazy Mono folks that are running Eclipse via IKVM.Net. If Sun continues on its current path Java is going to explode in several directions.

And on the other hand Java is facing increased competition from both .NET and the bevvy of competing Free Software tools.

The Free Software community doesn't need Java. They'll get along fine without it. However, Sun needs the Free Software developers to get on the Java train.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[dspeyer]

Promoting GNU isn't promoting RMS.

If you go to RMS's personal webpage you'll see quite a few opinions that he regards as orthogonal to GNU. Apart from that page, I've never heard about RMS's involvement with this stuff beyond a few jokes. RMS promotes GNU, but not the rest of himself.

ESR really does promote himself, not just the OSI. Everyone's heard about his guns, his sex life, his politics.... He considers it valueable for everyone to know about him. This is different.

In ESR's defence, he claims to have "developed an entire theory of media manipulation, which I then proceeded to apply. The theory centers around the use of what I call ``attractive dissonance'' to fan an itchy curiosity about the evangelist, and then exploiting that itch for all it's worth in promoting the ideas." In other words, he needs to be a primadonna to get the mainstream media to notice him, then he can tell them about what matters.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Ice_Balrog]

I think convincing Netscape to give us Mozilla is pretty damn cool...

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[alannon]

For example, I can embed a Python interpretter in any GPLed application I choose (or any commercial application for that matter). But if I want to write an application that is extensible in Java, well I have to write the whole thing in Java.

Nope, that's not true. You can embed a JVM inside of your application to make it extensible in Java, just like Python. This is becoming fairly common in databases to support user functions written in Java (Oracle supports this, for example). I've even seen commercial games that use an embedded JVM for decision-control and scripting.

The relevant part of Java is called JNI.

Re: ESR is primiadonna

[gidds]

He's widely considered to have fucked up the Jargon File, mostly due to his huge ego and lack of respect for history.

Widely, but far from universally. It could be argued that the Jargon File was always parochial and a personal view, and that the complaints are simply due to it being a different person now. It could be argued that the Jargon File was always a 'living' document, with changes made as terms came into and out of favour and meanings changed, and that this hasn't altered. It could be argued that there are few people as closely involved with as many people who make and recognise 'jargon' as ESR, and that no-one is likely to do a better job of it than he does. It could be argued that many of the people who don't like his stewardship are fuddy-duddies who long for the old days and dislike any changes that reduce the importance of themselves and their cultures and times.

I'm not saying I argue any of this, just that it could be so argued :) (Personally, I think he goes slightly too far at times, but does a reasonably good job of it, all things considered.)

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[macshit]

Well the initials ESR show up quite a bit in the software that I tend to use. Huge portions of Emacs were done by him (at one point he was the single largest contributor besides RMS, I don't know if that is true today)

No, it's completely off-base to say `Huge portions of Emacs were done by him.' ESR is at best a minor contributor to emacs; his biggest contribution was probably the GUD (Grand Unified Debugger) mode. You can see for yourself, all the ChangeLog entries are still there.

ESR is not stupid, and he does know how to program, but he doesn't seem to have ever done anything truly significant (especially compared to fellow `FOSS leaders' like RMS and Linus). Obviously that's true of most people, but in ESR's case it's particularly striking because he tends to be in the public eye so much.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

In the end though, if Sun makes Java free, makes it run well on other systems, and turns control largely over to the community, how do they benefit in a way that their stockholders will recognize (in the form of increased prices and maybe that most mythical of beasts in the tech sector, a dividend?) This is a straight question, not a smarmy comment... I really can't see how Sun will benefit from an OS Java, defining benefit as "now we won't be bankrupt in 4 more quarters after all."

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Jason Earl]

Yes, but what are the licensing issues involved in embedding Sun's JVM into a GPLed application? This isn't a technical issue. This is a licensing issue after all. Not to mention the fact that it is a freedom issue. The Gnome folks wrote an entire desktop from scratch, including a widget set, because QT was the right flavor of free. There is no way that they are going to push to embed Java into Gnome.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

haha. haha. hahahahahahahahha. yeah, sure, i'd like to embed all 1000mb of it into my app (exaggeration for effect)...fuck that!

embedding a perl/python interpreter takes virtually no memory away from my app in comparison.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[alannon]

I've never used it so I don't know exactly how tightly coupled the JVM becomes to the program that embeds it, but as I understand it, the interfaces are generic. This really comes down to the definition of a 'derived work'. Does the ability to dynamically link to the JRE at runtime make something a derived work of the JRE? I'm sure there are tons of opinions but I know that the answer has yet to be set into concrete. Sun's JRE is freely distributable, btw. You can include it freely in any program that uses it. Sun makes no real exceptions on its use. Including the full JDK is a bit of a different matter, but very few programs should require the JDK (which includes the compilation tools).

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Artifakt]

The Jargon file matters more than some think. I remember downloading it from a BBS at 1200 baud with my C-64, before this newfangled interweb thingie came along. With hundreds of terms that sounded interesting, and nothing like Googleing for it on the horizon yet, the reader had to work for it, like finding a physical copy of the Orange book and actually reading it, cover to cover, three times. The Jargon file was like the MIT model railroading club, or working for Xerox/PARC, for people who couldn't afford attending the former or yet get hired by the latter. It was many a common man's introduction to hacking.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Carewolf]

Or for 13 year olds to mix with red soda..

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[21mhz]

He started bogofilter and put out initial versions. It was picked up by other people since then. However, the initial design decisions were sound, and mostly made it to this day.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[MullerMn]

Somebody mod the parent up! Considering anything with 'All your base...' goes straight up to 5 you would have thought something atleast a bit original would deserve a few more points..

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[MullerMn]

Well done Eric! You managed a whole post without claiming the community elected you its leader! That's very unusual for you!

Come on now, back in your padded room.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Jason Earl]

In the end though, if Sun makes Java free, makes it run well on other systems, and turns control largely over to the community, how do they benefit in a way that their stockholders will recognize (in the form of increased prices and maybe that most mythical of beasts in the tech sector, a dividend?) This is a straight question, not a smarmy comment... I really can't see how Sun will benefit from an OS Java, defining benefit as "now we won't be bankrupt in 4 more quarters after all."

Sun wouldn't lose control over their JVM simply by GPLing it. They would still be the only folks that could license their JVM under any license but the GPL. It wouldn't really change the situation at all, except that Java would immediately become more popular with Free Software hackers. They might get a bit of free development help I suppose.

If Sun was currently making money with Java I wouldn't propose that they open it, but they aren't, and so what is the harm. Java is already a strategic initiative. And Sun is losing ground. IBM's Eclipse has gained far more support than Netbeans, and right behind it comes the demon of SWT over Swing. Java as a platform is already in jeopardy and .NET is sharpening its knives to have Java for breakfast.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Jason Earl]

I can guarantee you that this answer isn't good enough for the Free Software hackers working on Gnome, and it probably wouldn't be good enough for your lawyer if you happened to ask him if it was safe to embed the JVM in your GPLed application. With Python (or guile, or whatever) you are far safer from a legal perspective.

Besides which, who knows what Sun may do tomorrow. They are in a crunch for cash right now, and they might do all sorts of things to make the investors happy.

Life's too short to end up in court over a software licensing issue on a GPLed program, and so Free Software hackers don't support Java. There are plenty of other good Free Software tools. Free Software hackers don't need Sun nearly as much as Sun needs the help of the Free Software hackers.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Anonymous Coward]

Today was shaping up to be a great day for Eric S. Raymond, Open Source figurehead and accidental anthropologist extraordinaire. He had finally received, after two years, a reply to his Match.com love-letter. Using Open Source tools such as Perl and Jgermeister, Eric had wired his entire house to his 386 running Linux. His shack had just lit up like a Christmas tree before his eyes the instant the reply hit his inbox.

Straining to read the dusty 13" monitor, ESR pulled out a soiled handkerchief and spat it in, eagerly wiping away the years of filth and grime. When the screen was cleared, he sat anxiously at his kitchen table waiting for his lovely's email to come up. After what seemed like minutes (and was actually closer to a half hour) of Linux swapping, Felchmale displayed her reply on the screen. Eric beamed as he read the first few lines, and warm sweat began welling up on his ruddy brow.

Windeth I towarde the skye
I haveth eye but blinde am I

I liked your little poem. ror! You are very clever!

Eric clapped his hands together several times as a smiled festered its way across his face. He exhaled sharply through taut lips, as if he were literally letting pressure off, and mopped sweat from his forehead. He also began opening a new bottle of Jgermeister.

So how did you learn Anglo-Saxon and Old Icelandic? I only know American English. You must be so smart!

Eric almost had a heart-attack. Jger shot into the air and his hands started shaking uncontrollably. This girl was not only beautiful, but recognized his intelligence and therefore his alpha-male dominance! He began drinking the Jger with his trembling left hand as he started pounding on his chest with the right not in victory but in an attempt to get his heart beating in a proper cycle again. Replies this good only came along once in a blue moon. After a few seconds his crooked eyes returned to the email.

I drove to Kansas City to destroy my two arch-nemeses.
I blew a head gasket on Route 69.

What a coincidence! I live in Kansas City and take Route 69 to work every day! I bet you went right by my apartment! Wow, it's almost as if we were fated to meet one another!

Eyes whirring back and forth, Eric quickly scanned the rest of the email. It was bursting with flirtations and niceties. Clearly this woman was swinging material! He wasted no time in writing his reply. Fetchmail crashed, a known bug that Eric had yet to fix, so he started Pico and began typing in earnest, his lazy eye closed in concentration.

DEAR GENTLE MA'AM:

You must be a sorceress for you have enchanted me! (Just like my LARP, lol!)

Please allow me the pleasure of driving 24 hours straight, with but two stops for gasoline, from Eastern PA to Kansas City in an effort to pound your vagina into a sloppy wet mess.

Please send me your address and phone number and I can be on my way!

*hugz*
Eric

With the clack of a key-combo, Eric's reply was hurtling through cyberspace to his lovely in Kansas City. He began packing.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[alannon]

Well, you're talking about one very special and specific case: embedding a JVM inside of another non-java program. To claim that "Free Software hackers don't support Java" is simply not true. There is a ton of fantastic and totally Free software out there written entirely in Java, where the only requirement is that you first have a JRE or SDK before you can use it. Examples? Well, most of the Apache group's code is written in Java, except for their HTTPd server. JBoss. The Eclipse IDE (IBM). JEdit.

A quick look at freshmeat.net shows 2734 progjects in Java. That's the 3rd highest, behind ONLY Perl and C. Ahead of C++, PHP, then Python. And before you ask, 1908 of those projects are listed as under 'OSI Approved' licenses. Looks like a lot of open source programmers see Java as a viable platform for doing their development, besides the fact that the language itself isn't open source.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Jason Earl]

Perhaps "Free Software hackers don't support Java" was a little over the top. There are plenty of Free Software Java applications, especially in the web arena. In fact, one could even argue that the Free Software part of Java was the most vibrant part of the whole Java community. Where would Java be without Tomcat, JBoss, Ant, and the rest of the Free Software tools. If Sun's JVM were Free Software Java would almost certainly be even *more* popular.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[Stormie]

He's also done some good work for the crusade to prove that whites are smarter than blacks.

Re:ESR is primiadonna

[laird]

"I can guarantee you that this answer isn't good enough for the Free Software hackers working on Gnome, and it probably wouldn't be good enough for your lawyer if you happened to ask him if it was safe to embed the JVM in your GPLed application. With Python (or guile, or whatever) you are far safer from a legal perspective."

IANAL, but I disagree. I think that you wouldn't embed a JVM into your application -- you'd implement the JNI interface in your application, through which you'd use whatever JVM is available on the system you're running on. Since you're using a generic interface, and not packaging your application with a JVM, it's pretty hard to argue that your application's license would apply to whichever JVM the user happened to use, or vice versa.

He's so out of touch

[slutdot]

So is the website...

Re:He's so out of touch

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the whole thing:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/?http://www.pcpro.co.uk/n ew s/news_story.php?id=53646

I wouldnt mind...

[arock99]

I wouldnt mind seeing Java Open Sourced, perhaps it would finally convince some of those nay-sayers to switch to Java. Speed an issue...? Not anymore. Memory an issue? Not since 1.5, took a little while to get there but any language goes through learning

Mono

[jdtanner]

I know Mono is quite a young language (if you exclude the work done on c#) but I think that Sun should be wary.

I moved from Java to Mono/c# recently and I don't think I'll be going back.

Don't know what anyone else thinks?

Re:Mono

[pr0c]

Oh jeeeeez don't mention c# and mono in here! =P

I'll use c# over java as long as I possibly can as well. If there was only a good IDE for c# (mono) on linux... If java run as well as c# I'd use it though.

Re:Mono

[jdtanner]

Some guys are working on porting #develop to Mono, so that is one to look out for.

John

Re:Mono

[dnoyeb]

If you *can* move from Java to c# then do. i.e., if you are writing applications for Microsoft Windows, their is no harm in writing in a Microsoft language.

If you want portability, then Java is your cup of tea. You have no idea when/if MS will ever yank the rug from under Mono. If history is a lesson, they will whenever it is to their benefit to do so.

Re:Mono

[kfg]

I think that Java and C# both have their genesis in commercial aspirations, rather than technical. They both are, and will continue to grow more so, odd, kludgy and crufty languages that blow with whatever trend is now fasionable, wholely for the benefit of their companies.

Personally I wouldn't hitch too many of my horses to either one of them.

That is what I think.

KFG

Re:Mono

[bmj]

If there was only a good IDE for c# (mono) on linux...

I agree. I do a lot of .Net work, and minus a few flaws, VisualStudio.Net is a great IDE (and I really prefer text editors if I'm doing Java development). I've played around with Mono quite a bit and with a good IDE, I think the adoption would be better. I mean, if you're a .Net coder, it's tough to leave the fast development that VS.Net provides.

Re:Mono

[DarkOx]

Then you are a fool. Keep in mind that while M$ man not have patented and locked down the technology they still control it. Anyone who develops with mono or mono itself is an idot sorry but its true. M$ is not stupid for a product like .net/C# to be successful its gota be cross platform to compete with java so what do they do they work hard at the windows version which they no best how to do and maybe do some work on UNIX and Mac all while the do backburrner development on the Linux and truely portable versions. In the mean time they have they can sell there windows compiler and development tools make their money and tell their customers their application will be supported on other platforms (Thank you mono). When they are good and ready the are just gonna add a patented feature to .net/c# and release the linux development tools for sale. This is there classic embrace and extend move the only twist is they are extending their own technology for once. Mono will now be legaly prevented from developing a truly competitive alternative and will become insignifigant and die. C# is a good langue and if you are doing work on strickly M$ supported platforms by all means uses it where its the best tool but mono is a dead end why people can't see that escapes me. I am gonna keep saying this until people listen.

Re:Mono

[nickos]

Stick to C++. It's not as fashionable, but is a far more powerful language, and it's not dominated by a corporation.

C++ is a little harder to learn, but worth the effort. Javas write-once-run-anyware claim sounds great, but if you use standard libraries, C++ code can be recompiled for any platform for which a compiler exists (and g++ runs on more architectures then any JVM).

During the dot-com-boom the industry was crying out for new programmers. Java was popular because it's easier to teach to novice progreammers. I can't see the appeal myself.

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

Automatic garbage collection is nice.

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not really possible for Microsoft to yank the rug out from under Mono. Most of what they have done is based on the ECMA standard for C# and the .NET framework. Read the Mono site (in the FAQ) to get a fairly complete explanation of what could happen and what Mono/Ximian's response would be...

They have thought this through. C# and .NET are my future cross platform dev tool of choice. They are like Java 2.0 in many respects, and have a superior architecture (no JVM) as a key advantage.

Re:Mono

[T-Ranger]

If Mono worked it wouldnt need any porting at all....

Re:Mono

[koehn]

Right. Just like those COBOL programmers who've been gainfully employed for the bulk of 30 years by another language with "commercial aspirations." If you write code for a living, don't count those aspirations out.

If you add the combined salaries of Java programmers I'm willing to bet they're more than the combined salaries of (one of) HTML, C++, C#, or perl, python, php...

Re:Mono

[Florian Weimer]

I moved from Java to Mono/c# recently and I don't think I'll be going back.

If you are able to move this quickly from Java to C#, I don't think you are aren't in Sun's target group anyway (not enough KSLOCS).

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

but deterministic destruction is nicer ;)

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably think that because you've written very little code in either language.

I, too, switched from J2EE to C#, and I won't be going back. Night and day.

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

Night and day.

Don't you mean "Good and Evil"?

Re:Mono

[DeadSea]

Can you actually do anything in Mono yet? Last time I tried (admittedly about a year ago), I found that all the parts that let you interact with a user weren't written yet.

• Windows.forms - not implemented
• No apache module

That kind of left me stuck after hello world. There is only so much I want to do with a command line these days.

C# looked like a promising language and Java is playing catchup in 1.5 right now, but until it can be used on Linux for the stuff that I use java for, I won't abandon Java.

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

First you need a good IDE for C# on anything! Even the Windows one doesn't have code refactoring, and in the 21st century that is just whack.

Re:Mono

[jdtanner]

Hi,

Windows.Forms is being worked on with a Wine layer (http://www.go-mono.com/winforms.html)...not ideal but hey ho.

A great alternative is Gtk# (http://gtk-sharp.sourceforge.net/) for cross platform gui development. Have a look at skynet...not the one that is going to rule us all with cyborgs...at sky-net.sourceforge.net/ for an idea of what is possible :-)

John
Ps sorry /.ing the above

Re:Mono

[aled]

That's like the old myth of Java being Cobol reborn. I worked almost two years in Cobol and using Java for years now and can tell you that you are wrong!. Java is being used in enterprise applications because is useful, not because it was made by consultants.
Do you know what Java was made for? It was created for programming small electronic devices.

Re:Mono

[dragmorp]

GTK# is very nice. The Apache module is done (mod_mono) and ASP.Net is feature complete.

Re:Mono

[kfg]

I responded to a request for my thoughts.

I began my post with the premise "I think that. . ."

My conclusion was "That is what I think."

I'm sorry, but in this particular instance I shall have to fall back on argument by authority, and feel reasonably justified in doing so.

KFG

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

It won't be using windows forms. They're porting it to gtk# and most likely won't run on windows.

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

kfg wrote:
>
> I think that Java and C# both have their genesis in commercial aspirations, rather than
> technical. They both are, and will continue to grow more so, odd, kludgy and crufty languages
> that blow with whatever trend is now fasionable, wholely for the benefit of their companies.
>
> Personally I wouldn't hitch too many of my horses to either one of them.

Amen.

/. Java fanatics wake up and smell the coffee, namely:

Java: Language of Tommorow
Java: Failure or Crime
the many rants on bileblog

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

J2EE isn't a language, fool. You're comparing apples and oranges, not night and day.

Re:Mono

[G-funk]

Help out on the mono support in #develop (www.icsharpcode.net) and you'll get your wish :)

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

Just as long as you don't use any of Microsoft's standard widgets. For instance, if you wrote your C# app using entirely the core libraries, and Qt#, then you are probably safe from anything Microsoft could do.

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

I would at this point like to advocate Objective C for those of you who want the native code and the object orientation, but don't want the language stupidity of C++.

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, if you are writing an operating system... if you are writing an application, then it's rare that you give a fuck about "deterministic destruction"

Re:Mono

[aled]

I have only the authority of my experience. Though I think I refuted your premise that "Java and C# both have their genesis in commercial aspirations, rather than technical" (only in the Java part of course :-) with the info I given.

Re:Mono

[HuguesT]

Objective C was good in the late 80s/early 90s as a much cleaner implementation of a C-like language with object oriented facilities than C++ was at the time. As such it predated a lot of what Java/C# have become.

However now C++ is no longer just C with objects, it is a language with generics (templates), exceptions and a number of other advanced features, including a large powerful library. Most importantly C++ and its associated libraries is now an ISO standard and is supported by a large number of compiler vendors. Those who describe C++ as a stupid language often haven't made a significant effort to understand it.

Objective C, nice as it is, has none of these features and lives only in a single implementation, that of GCC, with a couple of associated libraries, those of Apple again and of GNUstep. Consequently it cannot be recommended to anybody except Apple developers looking to develop Cocoa applications, and possibly those looking to port these applications to other platforms using the GNUstep platform.

I personally find the NeXTstep/Cocoa dvp tools wonderful, but to be honest there are C++ based tools that are just as good these days, including free ones, and certainly C++ is a more versatile and better supported language.

Re:Mono

[kfg]

I offered no such premise, nor did I provide any argument in support of the nonexistant premise, therefore it cannot be refuted, although your thoughts may be different from my own.

I have greater personal knowledge of the history of Java than the link you provided, from its days as C++ minus minus until today. If my memory needed refreshing I could turn to one of the several volumes that reside at my elbow for reference.

What I think takes into account such history.

KFG

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

My main gripe about C++ is it pretends to have exception handling, but doesn't have finally{} blocks. And it pretends to have generics but really has templates.

Re:Mono

[Anonymous Coward]

Its running warehousing, ordering, and other business logic applications for major retailers and distributors, and those guys tend to upgrade systems once every blue moon or so. Before that, they were running Cobol. The language may suck, or not, but its here to stay, and Java code will most likely be helpin in running something you rely on everday long after you collect your last paycheck in your working lifetime.

I'm not a huge fan of Java, but after 8 years of hearing debates on its "longevity" I think that horse has left its gate.

Re:Mono

[HuguesT]

You can work around not having finally{}, although it is not always trivial, and according to both Alexandrescu and Stepanov, the latter being the guy who came up with the STL first with Ada and then C++, they think templates are better than generics.

However we are descending into language wars there, I don't really have an opinion. Although there are countless languages that are arguably better designed than C++, this language has so much support in the community (compilers, debuggers, interpreters, books, reviews, libraries, actual usage, importance on the CV, whatever) that it more than makes up for its shortcomings.

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

Yeah, the work-around for finally{} is code duplication, which is largely regarded as a bad thing. The duplication becomes triplication and quadruplication and so forth, the more exits that become available from your program.

There's just a certain amount of safety in knowing that you can do:

InputStream is = null;
try { is = new InputStream(...); }
finally { if (is != null) is.close(); }

Now regardless of whether any exception was thrown, you know the stream has closed. Assuming of course that it didn't throw an exception while trying to close, which you normally assume as meaning the stream was closed somewhere else.

Templates vs. Generics are entirely a semantic rather than a syntax war, since the two generally look the same in code. Templates do let you template primitives, which I admit is useful for performance reasons, but the downside is that every template you create is an entire new copy of the class. With Generics you only have one copy of the generic class, with each instantiation parameterised. Templates to me always sounded like a fancy name for a #define with a special syntax. Generics are actually a feature. ;-)

Re:Mono

[HuguesT]

In C++ the way to work around lack of of finally{} clause is to use smart pointers, which deallocate their resources as soon as they go out of scope. Your main point however, which is that exception handling in C++ is not trivial is absolutely correct (as opposed to in Python, say).

There is only one kind of smart pointer in the standard library, but many more are available in Boost.

The main advantage of templates vs. #defines is syntax checking by the compiler. They also allow you do to pretty spectacular things like compile-time evaluations of complex expression (template meta-programming). I didn't think generics could do that, but maybe I am mistaken. Some libraries are now using template meta-programming for things such as matrix operations optimization (avoiding duplication and transposition, in particular).

Cheers

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

Oh, Generics can do that sort of thing. That's specifically the point for using ArrayList over String, the type checking is done by the compiler instead of generating ClassCastExceptions at runtime.

Re:Mono

[Trejkaz]

Ugh... I meant over ArrayList. Anyway most people probably read straight through that typo.

rings a bell. . .

[jafac]

ah, the old ad hominem attack.
Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger".

I find it incredibly discouraging to know that everything I need to know about running a global billion dollar software company, I learned on the playground in kindergarten.

Not representative

[AsparagusChallenge]

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends...

For the eleventh time: neither Eric nor any other single institution represents Open Source! This is the way Eric S. Raymond treats people, nothing more, nothing less.

Re:Not representative

[Anonymous Coward]

True enough, but then why do so many people treat him like he does?

Frankly, there have been time where I'd like to have decked him for his (occasional) assinine behavior.

Re:Not representative

[zapp]

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

In life, whether personal, corporate, OSS, whatever, when you associate yourself with an organization, your actions reflect that organization to some degree. If ESR had said "these comments are solely my own and do not represent any organization I take part in", I could agree.

STFU.

Re:Not representative

[squiggleslash]

Yeah, Simon should just be glad that ESR didn't shoot him!

Re:Not representative

[Anonymous Coward]

ESR is the person more or less responsible for the trademarking of the term "Open Source" and has been, in a confusing manner, something of a steward for a movement specifically trying to squat on that name and present itself as a contrast to "Free Software". The fact that Mr. Phipps capitalizes "Open Source" here implies that he is not referring to the open source community, but referring specifically to OSI, ESR, and ESR's followers in the "Open Source" movement.

ESR is of course merely a leader in "Open Source"/OSI, and does not speak for all. However the whole issue is messy enough it is difficult to blame Mr. Phipps for being confused.

Re:Not representative

[duffbeer703]

Give me a break.

ESR is an idiot wannbe Druid Chieftan. Nothing more.

He wrote a book and "maintains" some webmail program. Why does anyone even pay attention to him?

Re:Not representative

[SectoidRandom]

There is no double standard, the point is quite simple, Open Source doesn't follow the same "rules" that was what the original poster was leading to. Linus, ESR may be prominent members of the community in some ways, but if you believe they represent the millions of people out there, it's completly your mistake.

Re:Not representative

[__past__]

I have never seen ESR praised by anyone but himself, actually.

Technically, he certainly is a "father of OSS", as he was one of those (together with Tim O'Reilly and others) who came up with, and implemented, the idea of avoiding the "freedom" rethoric to appeal to suits, and unfortunatly he even is the head of OSI, but I doubt that there are many people who both understand what he is saying and take him serious.

Re:Not representative

[kwhite]

Just like Microsoft is not the representative of closed/source proprietary systems. Please remember this when everyone says that all proprietary systems/companies are bad cause we can't see the source.

Ken

Re:Not representative

[Anonymous Coward]

The idea is that ESR, RMS etc do not speak for the Open Source community. However at times they produce writings which the Open Source community is in general agreement with.

In other words when ESR, RMS etc are exalted within the open source community, it is their ideas which are exalted, not them. The ideas become those of the open source community because the open source community adopts them as consensus, not because ESR, RMS etc are spokespeople. Open source is not a singular entity. It has individuals who some persons within the community see as leaders or trendsetters, but no spokespersons.

When ESR, RMS etc produce ideas or writings which are bad or excessive, these ideas are not those of the open source community unless you can fairly say the open source community has truly adopted them by consensus. Examples of the open source community adopting a really bad idea are rare, although they exist (for example, X11/ICCCM).

Re:Not representative

[ComputerSlicer23]

I'd like to agree with you in some sense, just like no single person can represent any group. However, in this case, ESR was in fact proporting himself to represent Open Source.

Look at how he signed the letter:

President, Open Source Initiative

Wasn't the Open Source Initiative started by nearly ever major figure in the Open Source world? I mean, with the exception of RMS (who isn't an OS guy, he's a Free Software guy), who'd they miss? In theory, he has the backing of lots of people. It might be time for some of them to oust him from the position of president, or distance themselves from the Open Source Initiative.

Granted this is sort of like me declaring myself: Grand Poohbah, Computer Industry Consortium. By the Computer Industry Consortium wasn't founded by lots of well known brand names in the computer industry. It was something I made up for this post.

Eric is pretty far out there with some of his views. I think when he wrote CatB he was about the right distance away from reality. However, is insane descriptions of Microsoft crumbling in 6 months (which he renewed at regular intervals). He's never seemed to accept that it is even conceivable that he could be wrong, or could do anything that wouldn't instantly be accepted. Read up on his attempts to get a new build system installed on the 2.4 kernel.

He's crazy by all accounts. Even the peole who I think have fringe views on Open Source, think he's just nuts.

Kirby

Re:Not representative

[sacrilicious]

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

You're criticizing a group (slashdot readers) as though it was an individual with one mind. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind not making sense.

Re:Not representative

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF? I disowned ESR _long_ before this latest BS from him. He's an ass, plain and simple. Most people here realize this. Why haven't you?

Re:Not representative

[Tassach]

ESR and RMS are mouthpieces more than contributers. While both have made significant contributions (Fetchmail and EMACS respectively), but primary role has been that of demagogues. It's interesting to compare the attitudes of ESR and RMS to that of technical leaders like Linus and Miguel de Icaza, who spend less time ranting and more time creating.

I could make an observation about spouting off on /. vs doing somthing productive, but I'm not in a self-depreciatingmood right now.

Re:Not representative

[RickHunter]

Disown them? What the heck are you talking about? Just because they're the fathers of the movement and contributed a great deal to its development doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean they speak for the whole movement, or even that they are in any way characteristic of it. Using this logic, one could try to reason about George W. Bush based on the actions of George Washington, an exercise doomed to failure.

Re:Not representative

[ChaosDiscord]

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

God, I hate those hypocritical open source folks. It's almost like they're a diverse group of people with differing opinions. It's like that hypocritical United States that praises George Bush but simultaneously disowns him. Everyone knows that real organizations (especially self-organizing ones without any sort of hierarchy) behave as a hive-mind.

In life, whether personal, corporate, OSS, whatever, when you associate yourself with an organization, your actions reflect that organization to some degree.

Indeed. I'm part of the "zapp" organization, and I'd like to say that we're all pot-smoking hippies who never bathe.

Just because ESR claims to be part of the movement doesn't mean everyone agrees that he part of the movement, let alone that he represents them. That's part of the reason for the big Free Software / Open Source Software divide. It's one thing to be part of something as organized as a business or organization, it's quite another to be part of something as nebulous as a "movement."

Re:Not representative

[dmiller]

I don't think anyone praised ESR as a "father" of OSS. He'd like to pretend that he is, and goes to great effort to approrpriate credit is opportunistic ways (e.g. releasing the useless "comparator" tool that doesn't even detect simple search+replace). CatB was a reasonable essay, though and his documentation efforts are to be rightly lauded.

But, witness his unsubtle and ongoing recrafting of the Jargon File to suit his strange political proclivities. He would probably describe this as an attempt to "hack a social network", others would refer to it as cheap manipulation and abuse of one's position.

I chose free software leaders by what they *do*, not what they *say*.

Re:Not representative

[Anonymous Coward]

"ESR and RMS are mouthpieces more than contributers. While both have made significant contributions (Fetchmail and EMACS respectively), but primary role has been that of demagogues."

EMACS was RMS' first big contribution. Not his best or his only contribution. He started the Free software movement, founded the FSF, started the GNU project, wrote GCC, GBD and emacs himself.

And, at one of his "windbag" speeches, a kid named Linus Torvalds was in the audience and decided that open source made sense for the kernel he would eventually write.

The man coded Free Software until his hands stopped working.

Re:Not representative

[Angst Badger]

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

Speaking only for myself -- though I suspect I'm not alone in this -- I've never been an ESR fan. I became involved in Free Software because I wanted to help people. ESR and the bulk of the Open Source crowd are involved in software on the basis of some dubious theories about alternative market models and software engineering. ESR, being the blinkered ideologue that he is, conveniently chooses to ignore the fact that more than a few very successful, high-quality free software packages are built in environments much more like a cathedral than a bazaar, and also chooses to ignore the fact the few businesses managing to turn a profit on the support and add-on model are both exceptional and only very modestly successful.

If your main concern is helping people by giving away quality software, none of this matters. If you're still clinging to the ESR version of the New Economy, it's an unmitigated disaster. That he still trumpets Mozilla as a success story with a straight face demonstrates just how out of touch he is. Mozilla, or, more accurately, it's stripped-down spinoffs are success stories from the standpoint of good free software. As far as the brave new Open Source market goes, they are the Hindenburg of failed late 20th century business theories.

This isn't to say there aren't a fair number of small companies and individuals making money off of Open Source. Hell, I'm one of them, and my day job involves working for another. But my day job -- which is a consumer, rather than producer of free software -- is where the real market role of free software lies: reducing operating expenses for real businesses. Open or Free software almost certainly will overtake most commercial software within our lifetimes, but it will not be creating value in the software market, it will be destroying it.

This is bad news if you're investing in commercial software companies, but if you are a business that uses software, or buying products from such a business -- which is just about everybody -- it is good news indeed in the form of lowered expenses and consumer prices. It's good news for schools, charities, and the poor, too.

ESR, contrary to some opinions expressed here, is actually a very good programmer and has worked on quite a number of important projects other than those which are solely his own -- bogofilter and fetchmail. I wish he would spend more time doing what he excels at -- namely, coding -- and less time doing things which he is truly awful at -- namely, acting as an unelected representative of a truly naive and reality-proof ideology.

Re:Not representative

[jrockway]

Umm, webmail? You mean fetchmail? It's a pretty important program. How else can you suck down email to read with a standard UNIX mail client? You can't :)

But, if you don't like him, that's fine. You can write Sun an open letter, too. Maybe people will like you better!

Re:Not representative

[Anonymous Coward]

If there wasn't "one mind" out there, ESR wouldn't think that he is leading it.

If you read Slashdot a few years ago you'd probably get the idea that Cathedral & Bazaar was some sort of great work of philosophy and truth. It's precisely the rabble on places Slashdot that allowed ESR to believe that he is leading some great movement.

Now, of coure, ESR has been exposed as somewhat of an assclown, people on Slashdot can't say enough bad things about him. So it goes.

Re:Not representative

[zurab]

People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

Who is the last "you" in your statement? Don't you think people have different opinions about different matters? And there is no general you. Yes, I personally (and many others) recognize the contributions Linus and others have made and they are to be praised for them, but this does not in any way mean that I blindly agree and follow everything they say or do.

I'll take a single opinion and tell you whether it represents mine or differs from mine. I am not your perception of you.

In life, whether personal, corporate, OSS, whatever, when you associate yourself with an organization, your actions reflect that organization to some degree. If ESR had said "these comments are solely my own and do not represent any organization I take part in", I could agree.

I don't know what this means. Surely, agreeing with every single ESR statement is not a requirement for writing or using OSS?

Re:Not representative

[ukyoCE]

Bullshit man, that's just bullshit. MANY active members of open source have repeatedly disagreed with ESR and RMS and said that their rants do more harm than good.

One person in a HUGE group of people says something, and you pretend like the whole group said it. Well guess what, there is no open source board of directors that agreed to publish ESR's statement as representative of the group. He speaks for himself alone, and beyond that unless you hear someone say "i agree", you have no right to assume that they agree OR disagree. And you definitely will come off as a jackass by attributing one person's comments to an entire group, especially one as fragmented and decentralized as open source.

I see no insight or even validity in your idea that if someone EVER agrees with someone, or likes something they did, that they are then stuck agreeing with everything that person does, forever. That's just plain stupid.

Re:Not representative

[nosferatu-man]

There's getmail, which has the advantage of not dropping/mangling mail, like ESR's masterful fetchmail does.

'jfb

Re:Not representative

[HuguesT]

from getmail's site:

> getmail
>
> A POP3 mail retriever with reliable Maildir and
> command delivery.
> [...]
> It is intended as a replacement for fetchmail.

That's nice, but people require IMAP these days (thanks MS Exchange), not so much POP3. Fetchmail does support IMAP.

Do you know another command-line IMAP client for Unix?

Re:Not representative

[jonnystiph]

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

I use open source software, slackware to be exact. I am quite fond of my choice of distro's. However, the creator of said distro is a dead head, I loathe the grateful dead, hate! I am happy that Patrick created this distro for me to use, but I never once said Linus, RSM, ESR, or Patrick were on my list of "hero's". Sure I appreciate thier work and dedication, but that doesn't mean they speak for me in anyway. Just because some people jump on the band wagon and pick "hero's" from the collective of personalities available does not mean and should not mean that they speak for all of us.

Friends?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have news for you: as long as Java is not free, you are not our friends.

Starting Java...

[sulli]

Applet Loading...

Applet Loading...

Applet Loading...

Applet Loading...

"I'd say this is 100 per cent rant... His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its

Warning:Simon Phipps has made an illegal operation. The application will be terminated.

Re:Starting Java...

[aled]

What does that suppose to mean??

Re:Starting Java...

[Alex Blume]

It means many people's (only) impressions of Java technology come from their happening across a badly written Java applet in 1997.

Nevermind that it probably runs more business systems than any other language besides COBOL.

Re:I say yeah!

[Lacutis]

*Languages* are free in the sense that it's pretty hard to program in a language that won't tell you about it's syntax, keywords or structure.

I think you meant *compiler* but even then, because gcc is open source and borlands free compiler isn't, does that mean C++ is a bad language? Does it mean gcc is better than bcc? Or does it mean that it doesn't make a difference?

I don't follow your logic there.

$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[Futurepower(R)]

Sun's mismanagement of Java is worth about $500 million in bad publicity for Sun, I'm guessing. Failing to pursue excellence with Java makes the entire of Sun seem mediocre. Whoever in Sun is failing to support Java cannot possibly be making a decision for Sun that makes economic sense.

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

Informative??? this is just random babbling. there are no facts involved in any of these statements...

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[That's Unpossible!]

Sun's mismanagement of Java is worth about $500 million in bad publicity for Sun, I'm guessing.

Everybody stand back -- Futurepower(R) has spoken... directly out of his ass.

Honestly, who moderated that crap up?

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[Mr. Piddle]

Failing to pursue excellence with Java makes the entire of Sun seem mediocre.

WTF about Java isn't excellent? Taking a look around at all the development platforms available to us, and it really seems that Java is best-of-breed!

For application development, I don't know of a better environment. The portability of Java is real (little or no #ifdef speghetti). The documentation is real. What other environment gives as many centrally-accessible and reasonably consitent libraries ranging from GUIs, to Zip files, to RDBMS, to MIDI? Certainly not C, unless you consider everyone disagreeing where their malloc() and free() calls should go consistent! C++? What two compilers actually work the same? C#? Microsoft isn't our friend, and never will be.

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[drinkypoo]

The whole of Sun is mediocre. Linux is preparing to beat the stuffing out of SunOS5 in all areas. AMD x86-64 is marginalizing Sparc64, which has proven itself to be an architecture with a terrible price:performance ratio. Hell even Sun is going to be selling Opterons. Here's a hint, when you have to supplement the machines based on your own architecture with some commodity shit people put in their PCs, MAYDAY.

Of course, your entire comment is nonsense, it's not saying anything. But Sun is on its way out. They're going to become a Linux-on-x86-64 company, or expire. That or somehow breathe new life into Sparc64, but I don't see that happening. The architecture is simply not that impressive for the high price.

As for Java, .NET would seem to be superior and the parts of it that we the people are really interested in are all open standards. The Free Open Source implementations are progressing and aside from the fact that lots of the .NET stuff on Windows will never work off of windows because they call the Windows.Forms API rather than doing everything simply through .NET, the .NET stuff is going to be quite useful. So unless sun does something really amazing with Java soon, it's going to be relegated to the niche markets too, with .NET and its competing implementations of the CLR taking center stage.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

>That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Wrong? You could be an idiot. Have you ever worked with Java before your little rant? Go back to your little toy environment and stay away from a real computing platform. Enjoy windows....you will soon be washing them for a living.

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that Sun is the ONLY major company who is backing AMD Opteron, flaming that decision is retarded.

Re:$500 million in bad publicity for Sun

[drinkypoo]

My flame is not going to retard sun's decision to use Opterons. I'm not saying it's not a good idea. I'm saying that SPARC64 has little to no reason to exist, and neither does SunOS5 any more, and Sun would do better to get over both SPARC64 and SunOS5 sooner rather than later.

Re:I say yeah!

[Delirium Tremens]

What is the problem, really?
The Java VM and language specs are out there. Anyone is free to implement them and released their source as Open Source. So, _ w-h-a-t _ i-s _ t-h-e _ d-e-a-l ?

If this is the way...

[donnz]

So should the world judge all proprietary software vendors by SCOs activities - that position seems a rather simplistic rant and doesn't hold water.

If we are supposed to differentiate bewteen SCO and SUN (hard to do with names that share such commonality) can he not do us the favour of tarring a whole community with one broad brush.

Re:If this is the way...

[rjamestaylor]

An S is "such commonality"?

Then how do you distinguish between Microsoft and IBM?
Israel and Iraq? -- or Iran and Iran?
Going back a few years, USA and USSR?

There's only 26 letters in the English alphabet, and the most commonly used are RNSTLE (can a WheelWatcher verify this for me?) so some amount of overlap is to be expected...

That SCO and SUN are sharing the same bed of fornication is proven by their debt instrument investment vis-a-vis "SCOSource License Agreement."

Re:If this is the way...

[rjamestaylor]

Iraq and Iran. Sorry. Those two confuse even me!

Re:If this is the way...

[RedBear]

There's only 26 letters in the English alphabet, and the most commonly used are RNSTLE (can a WheelWatcher verify this for me?)

I'm not a wheelwatcher myself but I believe you're referring to ETAOIN SHRDLU, the twelve most common letters in the English language, as identified by Morse (of Morse code fame) by counting the type in a typesetter's office(!). Just one of those facts of limited use that some of us love to etch into our brains the moment we find out about it. ;)

God bless Google. I searched for "etaion shrdlu" first and only got 641 hits, but of course it brilliantly asked if I had actually intended to search for "etaoin shrdlu", whereupon I got 6,020 hits. Google rocks.

Re:If this is the way...

[KFK - Wildcat]

or Iran and Iran?

Yeah, but those two are especially hard to distinguish. They both have 4 letters after all, and start with "Iran".

Re:If this is the way...

[rjamestaylor]

Yeah, it was a little hard for me to distinguish, too.

Re:If this is the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Me, too!!1

Re:If this is the way...

[Artifakt]

The most common letters in order, are supposed to be ETAOINSHRDLU. You can't go by wheel, since they don't allow guessing vowels till you buy them. ETAOIN... may be a tiny bit off if the many new words coined since the 50's have shifted things, but I doubt that it's off by more than a single pair of letters shifted a place each way.
Thank you for letting me be pedantic about what is doubltess the more minor part of your post. That was fun.

Re:If this is the way...

[Anonymous Coward]

lol

ESR is overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

Why exactly does this man think he's the Voice of the open source movement? I'm an active contributor to three projects, and he doesn't have the respect of any of my friends and fellow coders from those projects - and his book is based on a flawed assumption and is far from enlightening (no, they did not build cathedrals that way).

Re:ESR is overrated

[Dave_bsr]

He's self-nominated. He does a pretty good job. I agree with his statements about java, and most of the other stuff he's said. He has a way of taking concepts (especially open-source ideas) and stating them concisely and accurately.

What do you mean, cathedrals aren't built that way? They are designed and built by a core of people. Like a lot of engineering projects. The visual idea is very strong - it used to be you'd build a project with a few people designing, over a long time, with little input from users. It would end up somethign grand that everyone would marvel at.

ESR contrasts this with Linus's developement model, wherein he lets anyone contributed and he releases Linux often enough that people can be "rewarded" and excited by it. Read ESR's essay again...and if you still don't get it, I'm sorry for ya.

Re:ESR is overrated

[bgarrett]

ESR is a voice in the Open Source movement BECAUSE HE IS ONE. A lot of people interview him for things. A lot of people seek his opinions. He gets invited to speak and consult. People listen to him. He is the embodiment of the movement's very principles! If you don't like how he does "spokesperson", I suggest you go try and replace him. Put out a better implementation - yourself, or whoever. Let the two compete on merit, and may the best man (or woman) win. But don't sit with your thumb up your ass and whine about how this man doesn't represent open source, when in fact that very meritocratic process is how he arrived in the role.

Re:ESR is overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest you read this critique of C&B. And if you don't get it, I'm sorry for ya.

Re:ESR is overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense - he's a voice because he's LOUD (your caps made the point more eloquently than I can). His contributions to open source are minor, and his remaking of the Jargon file in his own image is a huge negative (luckily some people managed to fork it before he could do too much damage). I suggest you go and read the LKML archives from the time he tried to "contribute" his pathetic kernel configuration project as a means of gaining more credibility.

Re:ESR is overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

ESR is a voice in the Open Source movement BECAUSE HE IS ONE.

Well, can't argue with that logic.

Re:ESR is overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll stick with cathedrals. Open source is a shantytown.

Re:ESR is overrated

[asciiRider]

i agree -

we've got sun trying to keep "control"
we've got esr trying to control what sun does -

what are people using? Perl and Python - both java and esr should just go away

esr is kinda like bush - wages wars the people don't want :)

Re:ESR is overrated

[0x0d0a]

ESR is a voice in the Open Source movement BECAUSE HE IS ONE. A lot of people interview him for things. A lot of people seek his opinions. He gets invited to speak and consult. People listen to him. He is the embodiment of the movement's very principles! If you don't like how he does "spokesperson", I suggest you go try and replace him. Put out a better implementation - yourself, or whoever.

He just did. He threw out some verbal criticism, which is what's at issue, not software.

Re:ESR is overrated

[0x0d0a]

Read ESR's essay again...and if you still don't get it, I'm sorry for ya.

How is that an argument?

How about "Read the Communist Manifesto again...and if you still don't get it, I'm sorry for ya."? Did *that* do anything to convince you?

Re:ESR is overrated

[Felonious Ham]

You're obviously referring to the cathedral and bazaar (which I haven't read), but his Art of Unix Programming is one of the best books on programming that I've read. Not just for its solid and tested ideas, but also because it's written with an honest and engagin style.

I don't know ESR the man, but I respect him as an engineer (for lack of better word). And for that matter, I didn't find his Open Letter all that inflammatory--he makes a case for Sun to open Java with only a minimum of drama (the bit about RedHat share piece). As for his position as a leader, the fact that Sun responded suggests he possesses some influence.

I call bluff

[FreemanPatrickHenry]

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies..

Since when is Sun a friend of open source? They may be more "open sourcey" than, say, Microsoft, but I wouldn't call them friends. Maybe temporary allies.

It's like IBM. I'm glad they're running pro-Linux ads. It's helpful. It's nice to see corporate support. But remember when IBM was the "bad guy?"

My question is: what is a "friend" of open source? The GNU project is a friend of open source. Eric Raymond is a friend of open source (if an embarrassing one at times like these). Until I see more proof, I'm hesitant to call Sun any more a friend of Open Source than Microsoft a friend of IBM in the 80s.

Bottom line: Raymond was off the cuff and out of line. He was (and rightly so) called for it. But I'll wait until I see more "friendship" from Sun before I jump ship.

(And let the karma burn begin.)

Re:I call bluff

[ultrabot]

Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

Indeed. What kind of friend sponsors a lawsuit against you in an attempt to hurt you, and still expects you to be his friend?

Re:I call bluff

[OYAHHH]

Ever,

Heard of OpenOffice/StarOffice? If you haven't I suggest you look it up. You might change you opinion of Sun's contributions to open-source software.

Re:I call bluff

[squiggleslash]

Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

Since they released NIS/Yellow Pages, NFS, and OpenOffice.org, at a guess...

Re:I call bluff

[WilsonSD]

> Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

OpenOffice, NetBeans, Jini, JXTA, this list goes on....

Re:I call bluff

[Imperator]

And they also funded SCO after it was clear what such funding would go towards. Sun has at best a mixed record of support for free software. I don't know enough about the Java situation to comment, but I do know that Sun continues to invest heavily in Solaris and (as they see it) free software is a direct threat to that investment.

Re:I call bluff

[ultrabot]

Heard of OpenOffice/StarOffice? If you haven't I suggest you look it up. You might change you opinion of Sun's contributions to open-source software.

I'm not belittling their contributions. But you do understand that you can't use a contribution as a free pass to do any evil deed you deem necessary for your machiavellian plans, right? Being a good citizen is a lot about being consistent in your non-evil behaviour. Hitler was a jerk, even if he provided employment for quite a few. (godwin's law, anyone?)

Not that Sun is so evil as to deserve being annihilated completely, like SCO. I'd just like to see them bleed a few billion and kick out Scott/whoever devised the SCO scheme. Then Sun could be considered a friend again ;-).

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

Sun pays for NFS v4 port to Linux.
Sun supports Xemacs.
Sun donates internationalization code to X.org.
Sun buys StarOffice and donates the code to OpenOffice.

Sun support development and porting of TCL.
Sun donates elliptic curve technology to openssl.org.

Etc., etc., etc.

Sun established open standards, such as: NIS, NFS, etc., etc.,...

Sun is a much bigger friend to "open source" and *nix than just about any other corporation.

So, are you trolling, or uninformed? Maybe just abusing a friend to open source?

Re:I call bluff

[T-Ranger]

They opened it up, and about 4 months later, closed it. Kinda like 'zero cost' Solaris. It was once a zero cost download, now its media kit can be had for around $100.

Star/Open/SunOffice sucks. Sory, thats the truth. That it is simply not Microsoft does not make up for the fact that it sucks. I have installed and breifly used 1.1, however I have not been following the OO stuff very closely - when Ive tried I always see 6-24month old web pages. What I am deep down hoping for is a parallell with Mozilla. As it turned out, it was a compleate rewrite. And now, many years later, the Mozilla group is producing some amazing stuff, and its core technology is being used elsewhere.

It is possible that OO will always suck. Im hopeing that in a couple of years once they have fixed/replaced all the legacy crap it will be good. But Im not holding my breath.

Re:I call bluff

[dasmegabyte]

Dude. It's software. There are no good guys. There are no bad guys. There are just different ways of doing things. Idealism isn't going to get my clients' work done any more efficiently, or make my code run faster, or make my interfaces more intuitive. Smart programmers will make those things happen -- and I'll use whatever product works best.

And I'll remind you that there are TONS of great Open Source projects which utilize the ease and ubiquity of Java -- great utilities from Tomcat to Freenet. There's a number of great open source Java IDEs. Sun is a friend to open source because it is actively mixing closed source tools with open ones, filling in the gaps of each to the benefit of both.

Your claim that Open Source doesn't need friends who actually MAKE MONEY off of what they're doing is foolish. Sun and IBM are paying some of their programmers to write Open Source code. How is that not "befriending" the community?

I'll tell you. Sun and IBM don't have to befriend the community -- they're already members of it.

Re:I call bluff

[AmicoToni]

> Since when is Sun a friend of open source?

The Sun-funded Sunsites have long been a vital repository for *nix-related material, and were a precious resource back when the Internet was not for everyone.

The first Linux distributions were most often found on Sunsites.

http://www.sun.com/sunsite/

Re:I call bluff

[DR SoB]

" But remember when IBM was the "bad guy?""

Ummm, no?!

"I'm hesitant to call Sun any more a friend of Open Source than Microsoft a friend of IBM in the 80s."

Funny, but they actually were, in the early 80's. During the 90's they had the OS war..

"Bottom line: Raymond was off the cuff and out of line. He was (and rightly so) called for it. But I'll wait until I see more "friendship" from Sun before I jump ship."

At least he's stating his position, and it's ON YOUR SIDE. A lot better then Microsoft if you ask me..

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoever Is Not Against Us Is For Us.

Whoever Is Not For Us Is Against Us.

Re:I call bluff

[black mariah]

Where'd I put my mod points... dammit, I think I left them in my other pants...

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that Star/OpenOffice sucks, and is certainly 3rd rate when compared to MS, WordPerfect, or Lotus. But it does represent a HUGE amount of engineering that the Open Source community by itself would NEVER achieve in our lifetimes.

The arguments around here about Linux On The Desktop become a whole lot more credible when they were able to stop pushing rinky-tink stuff like KWord or Abiword. OO might not be the greatest software, but it's at least a semi-credible replacement for Microsoft Office.

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

And they also funded SCO after it was clear what such funding would go towards.

Sun didn't "fund" SCO, they bought IP that they needed and put to use. Your conspiracy theory is nonsense. It was business. Period.

Sun has at best a mixed record of support for free software.

Sun has done far more to support open source than you, or pretty much any other corporation.

I don't know enough about the Java situation to comment, but I do know that Sun continues to invest heavily in Solaris and (as they see it) free software is a direct threat to that investment.

Wrong. Sun sells systems loaded with Linux. Sun may become the largest linux vendor in the world this year due to Sun's Java Desktop system. Linux is a long ways from challenging Solaris in maturity, features, or commercial software base. What would happen if Sun stopped investing in improving Solaris isn't that Linux would suddenly be better, but that IBM's AIX and HP's HP/UX could potentially open up a technological lead and endanger Sun's hardware sales in the critical high end systems business. It is sort of funny, really, that I keep reading complaints from people on Slashdot about Sun working to improve Solaris but almost never about HP/UX or AIX. Is it just ignorance... or dark conspiracy? More at 11:00.

Re:I call bluff

[Mr. Piddle]

And they also funded SCO after it was clear what such funding would go towards.

I think this SCO-business is way overstated. Sun employes lawyers as well as MBAs and engineers, and they know what they need to do to keep doing business. If their lawyers say they need to pay SCO $8 Million, because of subtlties of the last 30 years of UNIX history, then they simply have to do it. Look at the Java Community Process, for example, then look at SCO and try to see the contrast between these companies. Sun is no SCO!

Re:I call bluff

[NorthDude]

Sun continues to invest heavily in Solaris

So IBM no longer investing in AIX? HP is no longer investing in HP-UX?

Those are all companies you know, they don't care if it is free software or not, only if they can make money out of it.
No matter how much they say they love open-source, never forget it's all only PR; Sun may just be bad at this game...

Re:I call bluff

[SuiteSisterMary]

They opened it up, and about 4 months later, closed it. Kinda like 'zero cost' Solaris. It was once a zero cost download, now its media kit can be had for around $100.

Really? I was able to find this in about four clicks from sun.com's index page. Note the word 'FREE', in red, even, in relation to the word 'Download' and behind the words 'Solaris 9 12/03 Operating System.' Both SPARC and x86.

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

"Funded SCO"? More like stole SCO's crown jewels. By purchasing SCO's x86 driver collection, Sun has pretty much made them totally irrelevant by providing a migration path to Solaris.

Re:I call bluff

[T-Ranger]

Well, its on random then.

Re:I call bluff

[comedian23]

So they gave NFS and Xemacs to the open source community. It's like giving a person standing on a ledge on a cliff a bottle of rum and a blindfold. Oh yeah, real friendly. Do you still need more proof they are against all that is good and right in the world? Just kidding BTW. Even if I don't use either it is still a nice contribution. -Comedian P.S. vi forever

Re:I call bluff

[ncr53c8xx]

Dude. It's software. There are no good guys. There are no bad guys.

We are talking about a software development philosophy, one which is not at all common in the commercial world. So yes, we need to talk about good guys and bad guys.

Idealism isn't going to get my clients' work done any more efficiently, or make my code run faster, or make my interfaces more intuitive.

This is the same kind of statement made by people buying supporting monopolies. Unfortunately, it takes far too much time to reveal that actions have consequences.

Smart programmers will make those things happen -- and I'll use whatever product works best.

This "best tool for the job" argument kills me. Where do you think the tools come from? If it is proprietary software, you will have to live with the lack of freedom. And who are these "smart" programmers who will work for SUN for free if they don't support open source?

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude. It's software. There are no good guys. There are no bad guys. There are just different ways of doing things. Idealism isn't going to get my clients' work done any more efficiently, or make my code run faster, or make my interfaces more intuitive. Smart programmers will make those things happen -- and I'll use whatever product works best.

Good and bad aren't dirty words they are just statements of valuing. Efficiency and speed is a statement of valuing. You value those things higher than others. Your definition of "whatever product works best" is a direct result of your value choices. Of course there are good guys and bad guys. According to your values, bad guys are slow, inefficient and unconcerned about their clients. Idealism is simply the pursuit of your values. You are very idealistic, your idealism is just very client facing.

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

StarOffice has one purpose -- "Bill Gates! From the Bay Area I stab at thee!". Sun had to open source it -- paying for real development of that app would have bankrupted them. Heck, it's taken Ximian (now Novell) to make it fscking usable. Meanwhile, it's possible to build and use AbiWord on machines with an FSB under 1GHz.

Re:I call bluff

[dasmegabyte]

We are talking about a software development philosophy, one which is not at all common in the commercial world. So yes, we need to talk about good guys and bad guys.

Whoa! All sorts of things are "development philosophies." They're not morally tinged. I'm not down with extreme programming, being more of a design patterns guy myself. What's my alignment? Am I chaotic good? Lawful Neutral? It's SOFTWARE.

Unfortunately, it takes far too much time to reveal that actions have consequences.

Because you know, sometimes, they don't have consequences. In thirty years, I won't use a single software program I'm using today. What matters is the program that works best for me RIGHT NOW. Yes, I'm taking a risk by using OSX instead of GNOME, and by using Photoshop insteasd of the Gimp, but that risk is worth the convenience.

I'm sorry, sonny jim, but just because you like Open Source doesn't make it the only choice, nor does it make it a moral decision. Or is everything a moral decision to you...in which case, I wonder how you feel about the Cola Wars.

Re:I call bluff

[Artifakt]

You're CN. By definition, any person who uses the term Chaotic Good is a D&D player, and all D&D players are Chaotic Neutral, just ask any DM. (and don't try to weasel out of it by claiming you DM). By the way, when's the game this weekend?

Re:I call bluff

[ncr53c8xx]

In thirty years, I won't use a single software program I'm using today. What matters is the program that works best for me RIGHT NOW. Yes, I'm taking a risk by using OSX instead of GNOME, and by using Photoshop insteasd of the Gimp, but that risk is worth the convenience.

You can predict technology for the next 30 years? Wow, that is some talent you've got there. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, those who trade in freedom for a little temporary convenience deserve neither convenience nor freedom. Think about that when you are using your DRM multi-thousand dollar, first born reqd EULA software.

just because you like Open Source doesn't make it the only choice, nor does it make it a moral decision.

It is not the only choice, which is why it is a moral decision.

Re:I call bluff

[dasmegabyte]

And Ben Franklin wrote a book called Poor Richard's Almanac, whose copyright he defended voraciously.

Freedom refers to personal liberties like speech, religion and assemblage. It does not refer to physical luxuries, like land, coffee or software. Ben Franklin's freedom is quite different from ESR's freedom.

Re:I call bluff

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh... I've heard of Open Office!
That's the bloated piece of shit that every one thinks is a great reason to switch to Linux.

Re:I call bluff

[ncr53c8xx]

And Ben Franklin wrote a book called Poor Richard's Almanac, whose copyright he defended voraciously.

Did he now? He also founded public libraries in the US.

Freedom refers to personal liberties like speech, religion and assemblage. It does not refer to physical luxuries, like land, coffee or software. Ben Franklin's freedom is quite different from ESR's freedom.

Ah, the constructionist view of the constitution. You can take that line if you think that constitution is something you need to circumvent. As for software, it is more akin to speech than anything else. It is a way to transfer knowledge. It is not a physical good, in that it can be replicated at zero cost.

Re:I say yeah!

[Stradenko]

Languages should be defined in an open and standard way. Let compilers and applications be proprietary. But keep in mind that proprietary extensions to the language ought to be shunned, as they will cause fragmentation.

I have no issues with Sun's management of JAVA

[GrassyKnowl]

I like the way Java is being managed by Sun and I have no issues with how Sun is managing the development of their Java IP.

People who gripe about Java and Sun's management of the language need to get a life.

Re:I have no issues with Sun's management of JAVA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah? well what about people who gripe about people who gripe about Java?

MOD PARENT IN SOME DIRECTION

[Anonymous Coward]

you are an out-of-touch communist tree-hugger.

So where's the problem, Phipps?

[dacarr]

The engine is already overbloated and lacks optimization. I've seen it take down a 3 GHz machine with 512 MB RAM just by running simple scripts. If this is what closed source gets us, I sure as hell don't want it.

Re:So where's the problem, Phipps?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you can write a bad program in any language...

Re:So where's the problem, Phipps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perl is overboated and lacks optimization. I've seen it take down a 3 GHz machine with 512 MB RAM just by running perl -e 'fork() while(1);'. If this is what open source gets us, I sure as hell don't want it.

Re:So where's the problem, Phipps?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Running simple scripts"? Perhaps this is simply a problem in communication, but how do you run "scripts" in Java?

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Only an out of touch commie hippy would respond as you did. Also, only an out of touch anal retentive commie hippy still uses a four digit /. uid for anything besides trolling.

GNU/RMS

[FreakyGeeky]

With those kinds of comments, I thought he was talking about GNU/RMS.

Re:GNU/RMS

[__past__]

There is an important difference between RMS and ESR: RMS is nuts because he cares for his idea of freedom (as silly as it may be), and nothing else. He is extremely predictable and straightforward in that. ESR is just an inconsitently flaming, self-loving troll.

Well, actually there is another difference: RMS wrote GCC and Emacs, ESR wrote Fetchmail and a text adventure-like interface for Linux kernel configuration that nobody liked. I guess a good psychoanalyst could draw a line between not having contributed anything significant and having to pose as the alphageek all the time.

I'm confused

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't there already open source compilers and runtimes for Java (blackdown, etc)? What was it ESR wanted?

Re:I'm confused

[Anonymous Coward]

There are, they aren't as good as Sun's JDK, and now OSS is whining. If they have to pay for sh!t, they get mad. God forbid someone be remunerated for their work.

Makes me wonder how OSS folks deal with closed source food, utilities, clothes, etc. Maybe the Gap and Ralphs are next.

Re:I'm confused

[bahamat]

Aren't there already open source compilers and runtimes for Java (blackdown, etc)? What was it ESR wanted?

Blackdown is not Free Software, and is Open Source. It's a binary only implimentation that some linux guys had to sign an NDA to create.

It's no more what ESR wanted than the ingredients to a cup of coffee.

ESR makes a good point, and a good plea. What exactly is Sun gaining by keeping Java? They could pull a Star/OpenOffice with it. All of the things that you can currently download free from java.sun.com or java.com dual license GPL/SISSL, the things that they charbe for (ie, the application server that's priced at 10k/cpu) they can still charge ungodly ammounts of cash for. Anybody who was willing to pay for it before, would still be willing after.

Why not? Everybody's happy, everybody wins. Sun wins, ESR wins, GNU and RMS win, Linux wins, Apache wins, Apple wins. Everyone except Microsoft. And wasn't that kind of the point of Java in the first place?

Re:I'm confused

[Wesley Felter]

Blackdown is not open source. All the open source implementations are incomplete.

Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun fires back over Open Source Java accusations
[PC Pro] 15:13

Sun has offered a frank response to the open letter from Eric S, Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative, in which he called on Sun to make its Java platform Open Source and described the company's Open Source strategy as 'spotty' and 'confused'.

'I'd say this is 100 per cent rant,' Sun's Chief Technology Evangelist, Simon Phipps told us. 'His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies.'

Raymond's first line of attack was to dispute whether CEO Scott McNealy's claim that 'the open-source model is our friend,' has any substance when at the same time Sun is filling the coffers of Linux litigator SCO through licensing deals and still keeps Java under 'tight control'.

'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

'In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley [University of California]. We understand Open Source better than anyone else. IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks. [Raymond] isn't well informed and is ignoring most of the stuff that Sun is doing. He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers. He's very selective about what he wants to write about.

For the record, Raymond wrote: 'Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.'

Phipps responded that Java is not a scripting language, so it is meaningless to make such a comparison.

Raymond also wrote in his open letter: 'Sun's terms are so restrictive that Linux distributions cannot even include Java binaries for use as a browser plugin, let alone as a standalone development tool.' But Phipps responds that SUSE has managed to do so without any problems.

Raymond also says that Sun faces the stark choice of control or ubiquity for Java. Phipps said: 'Java is already everywhere.'

And as for control, Phipps maintains: 'Sun has no more control over Java than anyone else in the Java Community Process'. Besides, he said that since version 2.5 of the Java Development Process that was ratified some 18 months ago it has been possible for anyone to create an implementation of Java that complies with the Open Source requirements. And that includes Java 1.5 which will be out 'really soon' [an alpha was released two weeks ago].

'We don't have an axe to grind with Eric, and we don't have any hostility to what he is supporting. But I don't believe there are any barriers to making Java Open Source,' he said.

'The question he should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it's on the 'too hard' list. Sun would support an Open Source version of Java, but it need a lot of money and time to do so. You can't just flick a switch. Right now Sun has higher priorities in the form of Java 1.5,' he said.

Questions of who makes Java Open Source aside, there is a strong demand that it be implemented. When we interviewed Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, last month we asked what the most pressing needs are for the GNU operating system (of which Linux is the kernel), he said: 'We need a free complete Java platform.'

Matt Whipp

Re:Article Text

[ultrabot]

He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

I have some trouble understanding this statement. Does Scott lie to lawyers, or us?

My god, should we only read and consider statements that are directly addressed to us? Should we be spoon-fed by statements that are tailored to what we want to hear (not talking about slashdot here, of course ;-).

Re:Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

'The question he should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it's on the 'too hard' list. Sun would support an Open Source version of Java, but it need a lot of money and time to do so. You can't just flick a switch. Right now Sun has higher priorities in the form of Java 1.5,' he said.'

Obviously this Sun Evangelist is either totally clueless, or working for SCO. GCC already comes with a Java compiler called GCJ

Re:Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

We understand Open Source better than anyone else. IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks. [Raymond] isn't well informed and is ignoring most of the stuff that Sun is doing. He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers.

Umm.. neither of those two products (Java Desktop and Java Enterprise System) are open source as far as I can tell. With Java Desktop, Sun started with open source software and added in proprietary stuff so they could charge for it. Doesn't that sound like wrapping yourself in the flag but behaving like an old-fashioned systems company?

Re:Article Text

[wytcld]

For the record, Raymond wrote: 'Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.'

Phipps responded that Java is not a scripting language, so it is meaningless to make such a comparison.

Yes but ... Java's main success is as a way of writing server pages (since the "Write once, run anywhere" promise was bull, and it's mostly been too damn slow for complex client apps). The competition there is scripting languages - Python, Perl, PHP. And even if you want cross-platform client apps, the Python QT bindings provide a pretty good way to go without Java.

Having got involved with Java when it was first out was a good way to learn to take anything Sun claims with a grain of salt.

Re:Article Text

[Deternal]

Surely it means that one words ones message according to whom you are speaking to.

So SUN could say to shareholders "we are friends of open source".
And tell OSS people "we'd like to help you with this and this".

And what do you know? That's what they've been doing for a while now.

Re:Article Text

[Austerity Empowers]

I think "open source is our friend" to analysts justifies why his company is participating in open source projects since clearly there is an investment and no clear return. From first hand experience I can tell you that many such analysts are skeptical at best that this is a good idea. The term "communism" and "waste of investor money" is often used. He needs support of analysts and investors alike to continue leadership of his company.

Saying "open source is our friend" to the open source community may be taken more as an endorsement that "hey you guys are great we'll do anything you want", which is both untrue and not really in the best interests of the open source community anyway.

I suspect ESR has a point that is being carefully evaded (if only because the point was unclearly stated, and wrapped in character assaults on a company). Java is free except for the particular implementation that matters. It's too hard for the open source community to pick up, and sun doesn't want to give it away.

Re:Article Text

[ncr53c8xx]

In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley

Whew, we can finally be rid of that GNU/Linux nonense. Thanks Sun!

He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers.

And Sun is still spreading FUD about Linux while selling these systems. Statements like "only good on the low end" and "will be replaced soon by Solaris" are not that of a friend.

Phipps responded that Java is not a scripting language, so it is meaningless to make such a comparison.

Who cares if it is a scripting language or not?

The question he should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it's on the 'too hard' list.

Is that a challenge? Or just wishful thinking? Some time ago RMS said that a Free GNU java compiler would be created to replace SUN's proprietary system. At that time McNealy stated that you couln't create a Java system from the published spec alone. That was probably FUD, but an interesting statement nonetheless.

Sun would support an Open Source version of Java, but it need a lot of money and time to do so.

Open Source does not make SUN happy. They tried their best to shut JBoss down by not giving them J2EE certification. They reversed their position after a huge outcry. In an interview last month, Gosling said he doesn't like Open Source because free stuff is hard to make money out of. Specifically, he said that they are pouring so much money into Java and would like some return, and Open Source was not helping with that. I think this is something fundamental in their philosophy.

Re:Article Text

[Anonymous Coward]

"For the record, Raymond wrote: 'Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.'

Phipps responded that Java is not a scripting language, so it is meaningless to make such a comparison."

Uhh, is it just me, or did Phipps miss the point and make an ass of himself there? It seems fairly clear to me that Raymond was saying keeping Java closed would let competing languages that are scripting languages get the edge - not implying at all that Java itself was a scripting language. Which makes Phipps' point the meaningless one. Looks like someone needs to RTFOL.

He's so out of touch.

[Trigun]

And in other news, Simon Phillips wins the "Understatement of the year" award, also known as the "GNU/Understatement of the year" award

Re:ESR

[halivar]

I wish there were only some way to mod (-1, Funny).

ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?)

[Rotten]

Ok, this time Sun is Ev!L because is not open sourcing a product they own..

Dude, asking a little more is good, asking too much is instantly very bad... companies who like the open source model would easily scare if a preacher starts asking them to open source every product they own.

I still don't see the point of a open source java...sorry, you can write open source code for it...that's good for me.

Re:ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?)

[ultrabot]

companies who like the open source model would easily scare if a preacher starts asking them to open source every product they own.

That's a phenomenally bad analogy. Products for which companies charge (and live on) may not be good candidates for Open Sourcing, Sun holds on to Java just because of Control. They are not selling it.

I still don't see the point of a open source java...

Read

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/13/1557 25 6&mode=thread&tid=185

Re:ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?)

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not asking for every product to be OSd, just Java. Java is a language and languages are far different beasts from regular programs. Why do you think the OS community still relies so heavily on C? (hint: it's not because it makes a programmer's life easier...it's hidden somewhere between the AN and the SI)

The JCP only exists to give the impression that Sun isn't controlling things. If Sun would submit Java to a real standards organization, .NET would die a quick death (no doubt replaced with an somewhat standards-compliant Java, but that's just how MS works.) OS programmers would be free to write in Java and incorporate Java in places Sun never imagined Java could go. The Sun guy doesn't understand what true ubiquity is because he doesn't see any advantage to Java going where it won't make Sun an immediate profit.

Re:ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?)

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not asking for every product to be OSd, just Java.

Oh, it's only Java? I thought it was actually something big. And ESR doesn't want Java to be OSd. He wants Sun's Java implemention to be GFL'ed. Does it matter that Java's API is out there right in the open for anyone to implement? Nope. It has to be Sun's implemention.

Re:ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?)

[Anonymous Coward]

dude, i'm pretty sure sun does make money off of licensing java. so yeah, they are "selling it." stop and think. i'd suggest looking at this from sun's point of view. what's the best business decsion for them?

Re:ESR Rant number..(anyone is counting them?)

[ncr53c8xx]

companies who like the open source model would easily scare if a preacher starts asking them to open source every product they own.

It is debatable whether SUN likes open source. However, we are talking about a development tool, and your tools should always be open.

I still don't see the point of a open source java...sorry, you can write open source code for it...that's good for me.

You can develop Open Source (not Free) software with Microsoft Windows too. Microsoft has taken to putting anti-GPL clauses in anything they touch. What if SUN does the same?

From the horses mouth

[clandaith]

Jonathan Schwartz came to the Utah Java Users Group in January (We got him out here with free tickets to the Sundance Film Festival.). He asked if people felt that Java should be open sourced. About half the audience raised their hands, myself included.

He said that it wouldn't happen because Sun didn't want to see multiple versions of Java out there. If MS went and changed some things in Sun's Java and then started to bundle their version of Java with Windows, who knows what will happen.

We will start to see different versions of Java. People will start to think that the MS version of Java is the actual "real" Java and get mad when someone writes a Java program using Sun's version of Java.

Then, MS will be able to start to dictate what goes in Java, or they will just stop following Sun's vison of Java and go on their own merry way.

He gave more reasons and it convinced me that it really wasn't that great of an idea to open source Java.

Re:From the horses mouth

[frosh]

What you describe is called in the open source world forking. In the example you gave, Microsoft could definitely put out their own version of Java and bundle it. However, if Java were open source and licenced under the GPL, they would have to provide the source as well, so anyone could add their 'improvements' back to other forks.
In a GPL world, this argument just doesn't hold water.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

In a GPL world, this argument just doesn't hold water.

But it would matter is Microsoft bundled their OS version of Java with Windows, with specialized "Windows-specific" code in it. Sure, Sun could change their fork to reflect these changes as well, but this is exactly what the parent poster is saying: letting Microsoft dictate Java's terms would likely take away from Java's platform-independence, for which it was originally created.

I sure don't think that the majority of users would download the Sun version if their Windows machines came with something called "Java", bastardized as it may be. So, as pointed out, we'll reach the point where we have annoying notices on web-pages stating "Best viewed with Sun Jave x.x". Sound familiar?

Re:From the horses mouth

[Elwood P Dowd]

But if it were GPLed, Sun could reincorporate those changes or include an "MS Java" compatibility layer at little programming cost.

So he's right, an Open Source (note caps) license might fork Java. However, if it were released as Free Software (note caps), it would not be forked in a meaningful way.

Look at Linux, and look at BSD. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying that one license style lends itself to forking and the other does not. If Sun prefers no forking they can use the GPL and quit whining.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

Suppose Microsofts 'improvements' involve making Java only run on Microsoft windows? Then Microsoft preinstalls MS Java on their next OS and suddenly we have 90% of Java development happening in MS Java and none of the programs written in Suns Java working on windows. Would you expect Sun to add this 'improvement' to their own code and help Microsoft make Sun irrelevant?

Re:From the horses mouth

[spells]

But what happens when the "improvements' make calls to the win32 API?

Re:From the horses mouth

[ThrasherTT]

I think he has a good point. If someone forks a product and is able to (nearly) instantly distribute it to 90% of the worlds' desktops, now all the other forks will need to play catch-up to be taken seriously by "consumers." Just because there are better forks to Product X doesn't mean they get more use than the ubiquitous Product X-a.

I for one don't give a crap if there is an open implementation of Java, given the current process at which Java is advanced. I'm a Java programmer, does that make a difference? I dunno.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Orien]

You're right, we might as well give up open sourcing anything because MS might use it against us. In fact let's just give up this whole OSS thing and go back to proprietary systems.

Seriously, what makes you think that MS would corrupt Java when it hasn't done a single thing to Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby, or any of the other hundreds of open source languages/platforms?

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun quit whining? How about ESR? Before I realized he was a big mouth pain in the arse I read his "Cathedral and the Bizarre" rant. Hundreds of pages of him talking himself up with and occasional point buried in all the self hype. After reading it, I pretty much disregard anything that shmuck has to say. Full of himself, and full of sh*t.

So far as java and Sun, they built it, they have the right to do whatever they want with it. If you don't like it, don't use it. You do have alternatives. To me, Java just proves there is more than one way to build quality successful software, and free/open source is just one of them. Long live diversity, even in licenses.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't MS already create their own version of Java and get slapped by the courts for it?

Re:From the horses mouth

[haystor]

Then it would probably run faster and more efficiently than regular Java, thus making it incompatible.

Re:From the horses mouth

[dnoyeb]

You could always read the original article and understand that open sourcing "Java" is not about the language but Sun's implementation of it.

I guess at this point since the whole of slashdot is getting it wrong due to the standard failure to RTFA, I'll just let it go...

Re:From the horses mouth

[md17]

Why hasn't MS forked linux, mozilla, etc, etc, etc? Perhaps they don't fork existing GPL'd products because then the world can easily see their evil tactics. Perhaps there is little motivation for MS to fork GPL'd projects. Would MS really have enough motivation to fork OS Java? {strapping on flame retardant suit suit} If they did fork OS Java, maybe they would actually make some worthwhile improvements. You just never know. But just as ESR pointed out, Sun can't have ubiquity and control. So it seems Sun is opting for control. I guess we will have to wait until Sun files for bankruptcy and IBM buys Java and open sources it. :)

Re:From the horses mouth

[RickHunter]

Except:

- Microsoft had already done this... And, in fact, still IS. That's ALL .Net is, no matter what the MS zealots try to claim. Sun's keeping things closed hasn't helped them there at all.

- Mr. Schwartz was muddying the waters by confusing trademarks and code. Sun could still open the code but retain a trademark on Java in the appropriate domain. So if Microsoft tried this, they could be sued under TRADEMARK law and forced to re-label their product.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes us think that MS would corrupt Java? Maybe because it's already tried to, or didn't you know about the Sun vs. MS lawsuit? There is a reason MS doesn't make a Java VM anymore. And that is beside the fact that Java is set up to be a platform, not just a language. When something threatens the ubiquity of Windows, don't think that MS is just going to sit and stare at its navel.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, java already makes calls to Win32 -- it wouldn't work on Windows if it didn't.

Second, what happens when someone "improves" Mozilla by making calls to Win32? Does that make the Linux version less valuable?

Re:From the horses mouth

[wolrahnaes]

Seriously, what makes you think that MS would corrupt Java when it hasn't done a single thing to Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby, or any of the other hundreds of open source languages/platforms?

Java is a big thing. Nearly everyone with a computer has used Java in one way or another by now.

In the Windows world, the other languages you list are insignificant little specks. How many apps used by a significant percentage of (non-slashdot-reading) Windows users use any of those languages?

AFAIK, the most popular app written in Python on Windows is BitTorrent. Can't think of any others.
PHP is basically only used on Apache instells. 99% of Windows webservers are IIS/ASP.
Perl has popularity on some servers due to the vast amount of CGI scripts written for it. Still not a real threat to MS.
Ruby is not a language I am familiar with, but a quick check of RubyForge reveals less than 170 apps, and out of the top 10, at least 4 are support apps for Ruby written in C or some other language.

What I'm saying is while these languages have their place on *NIX systems, most cross-platform (read: Windows and Other) developers only care about Java, and thus that is where MS will likely focus their efforts. Notice how Java doesn't (didn't?) come on WinXP? It has already begun...

Re:From the horses mouth

[Eric Savage]

"If MS went and changed some things in Sun's Java and then started to bundle their version of Java with Windows, who knows what will happen."

Hmm, I wonder if they would call it something dumb like C#...

Re:From the horses mouth

[SuiteSisterMary]

Actually, they did this with J++, and they got smacked down hard over it.

Making a legitimate competitive product is one thing. Making something deliberately designed to capatalize upon, and draw confusion with, somebody else's product, is another.

Re:From the horses mouth

[HoldmyCauls]

That (the one statement you remembered) is a valid point: an established user-base is the most important thing to remember in making a change to a software product that everyone uses. One could easily say that's a reason for MS *not* to make such a change to the code for, say, the Java VM, which then would not work properly with the thousands (millions?) of java programs, applets, etc. on the Internet, programmed by (reasonably) competent people who, if ever code to standard always do so with that given by Sun within their documentation, in books written by people who are close to the horse's mouth, etc. Microsoft would have to do some *phenomenal* donating to universities in order to get professors to recommend Microsoft's own books over those blessed by Sun -- and they'd have to get people to write them. The fact that Java doesn't work on someone's *computer* (remember, OS and JVM are just strings of letters to some people) won't necessarily make the programmers not code by the established standard.

I would love to hear those other points, though, if you can find them anywhere.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Elwood P Dowd]

I agree. My "whining" comment only relates to the talk described by great-grandparent poster. Forking is not a reason to avoid releasing your source via GPL or any of the corporate-sponsored OSS licenses.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that I agree with ESR's statements on the subject. I don't necessarily think Sun should GPL java. Just that forking shouldn't be their reason.

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

*cough* J++ *cough*

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

Schwartz nailed it on the head, and it's a concept most open-source users don't understand. Forking is bad, real bad, and not just for Sun, but for everyone. It would hurt Sun the most, as they've sunk so much money into it. Sun has marketed and pushed the specifications for Java that make it "not-C"; namely, write once, run anywhere. The minute they lose that, then Java will become an also-ran. Apps written for one platform are no longer guaranteed to work on another.

An excellent example exists in the C programmer's community. If I were to ask what the standard was, everyone would answer, "ANSI-C". Yet how many ANSI-C compilers exist? How many compilers exist out there, in total? Who has been forking these different versions? (hint on that last one: it's not just /.'s favourite whipping boy; there are others responsible). If the computer world cannot agree on something as entrenched as C, what incentive is there for Sun to give up Java?

Re:From the horses mouth

[weston]

We will start to see different versions of Java. People will start to think that the MS version of Java is the actual "real" Java and get mad when someone writes a Java program using Sun's version of Java.

Didn't this already happen?

Re:From the horses mouth

[chromatic]

We will start to see different versions of Java.

The language, the libraries, or the platform? There's J2SE, J2EE, J2ME, Blackdown, Kaffe, Classpath, the AOP thing, the Pizza project that preceded Java 1.5's generics, IBM's JDK, HP's JDK, GCJ....

Re:From the horses mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called "trademark infringement", buddy.
Yeah, remember that whole UNIX name? It could work with JAVA as well.

Re:From the horses mouth

[bXTr]

He said that it wouldn't happen because Sun didn't want to see multiple versions of Java out there.

But is that not the point? The last time I looked Sun only makes their Java available from their website for Windows, Solaris and Linux. If I want Java for Mac OS X, I have to use Apple's. If I want Java for FreeBSD, I have to use FreeBSD's. If I want Java for HP-UX, I have to use HP's. Sure, it may look like Java, but it's not really Java unless it's from Sun.

Re:From the horses mouth

[fnc]

Sun controls the specification and the name "Java". Any GPL fork would have another name. I think this is enough protection against a MS version of Java.

Re:From the horses mouth

[RickHunter]

Exactly. Sun's got nothing here, but they always trot out that tired old horse whenever someone suggests they open their Java code. And of course, most OSS types, being absolutely terrified of Microsoft, go along with it.

Rant?

[nonmaskable]

Notice how Phillips takes the cheap shot ("rant") in order to play to ESR's current unpopularity with the slashdot crowd? He doesn't try to refute the issues ESR raises.

I guess it's hard to be coherent when your company doesn't really know where it stands wrt open source.

Re:Rant?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess it's hard to be coherent when your company doesn't really know where it stands wrt open source.

And you know all about where Sun stands with respect to open source? Do enlighten us, oh great armchair critic.

As far as refuting the issues, doing so would lend false credibility to ESR's opinions. Once you start arguing with a fool, the fool will eventually beat you with experience. I assume you argue with GNAA members over their viewpoints too?

Re:Rant?

[cmburns69]

Did you even read the article? Mr Phipps response does start with an inflamatory attack, but he follows it up with some good supporting evidence:

"In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley [University of California]. We understand Open Source better than anyone else. IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks. [Raymond] isn't well informed and is ignoring most of the stuff that Sun is doing. He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers. He's very selective about what he wants to write about"

He doesn't refute the "high-level" arguments that ESR makes, because he is attacking the "low-level" premises that ESR's arguments are based on.

Re:Rant?

[grigori]

Current unpopularity? Nooooo, he's always unpopular because all he does is RANT. Phipps is right

Biggest worry for OpenSource

[superpulpsicle]

I think programmers who have truely contributed to open source should be the only ones with real saying about the direction of open source.

What really really worries me is just the number of non technical people pushing this thing around... executives, lawyers, managment, marketers... this list goes on.

Re:Biggest worry for OpenSource

[Mysticalfruit]

You forgot a big group... Slashdotters...

Re:Biggest worry for OpenSource

[doconnor]

Those non technical people may seem big, but they have very little power. It's programmers who create open source software are the only ones who can control it because they are the only ones who can create it.

Sun on IBM

[Aardpig]

IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks

Of course, it all suddenly becomes clear! Sun are taking all the risks, by investing so much time and effort in Linux development. That's why SCO are suing them, rather than those Johnny-come-latelys at IBM.

Wait a moment....

Re:Sun on IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, how about OpenOffice, NIS, NFS, and on and on and on...

Re:Sun on IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

This is rich, Simon used to be the Java "Evangelist" for IBM until he jumped ship to Sun with Schulz and Gee.

Re:Sun on IBM

[__past__]

Personally, I think having NFS, NIS, PAM, Gnome, OpenOffice, DocBook, freedesktop.org etc. developed or supported by Sun is worth more than them being sued by SCO, but that is just my personal opinion. I just wonder, do I have to deinstall KDE and Qt? Trolltech wasn't sued either.

Re:Sun on IBM

[Aardpig]

I dunno, how about OpenOffice, NIS, NFS, and on and on and on...

Both NIS and NFS predate Linux, and I'm not sure how much help Sun provided in porting them to Linux. Furthermore, they're not particularly close to the heart of the Linux kernel; it could be claimed, quite reasonably, that IBM's contributions to the kernel carry much greater weight.

It's also worth mentioning that NFS is one of the biggest potential security holes in the UN*X world; some therefore regard it as a mixed blessing, preferring alternatives such as AFS or Coda.

Disclaimer: I'm not much of a fan of Sun, finding their products overpriced, underpowered and filled with bugs. The only thing I can say in their favour is their high-quality customer facing and support. So there you are.

Re:Sun on IBM

[LeoDV]

I realise you're being humorous, but Phipps does make excellent points. Yes, I'll defend the clean-cut suit against the moustachioed idiotarian.

First off, the only reason SCO are suing IBM isn't because of the relevance of their contribution to the OSS community, but simply because they're bigger and they're a household name -> more publicity.

But Phipps is right : IBM's long term strategy is basically to switch from "big iron" to becoming an IT consulting firm. Linux is a big part of that strategy, so they're advocating Open Source all over the place to get support from the community. But fundamentally they still do behave like an old-fashioned company, no matter how much you and I may love their ads.

But more to the point, I wholeheartedly agree with Phipps. ESR/RMS et al have pretty much become OSS ideologues who see everything as black and white. Open Source means Utopia, absolute freedom, great code and happiness for the people. Closed Source means totalitarian control by blood-sucking suits, kludgy software and the death of dozens of cute, cute kitties.

This is why he proclaims that Sun must choose between ubiquity or control for Java -- when they already made that choice! No other development platform became so predominant so quickly! And why was that? Because the runtime was always free and good tools were cheap or free. Sure, they were free as in beer, not "free as in speech", but Sun did give up control, and now they did get the ubiquity in return. But ESR can't see that distinction, that blurry area of grey, because all is black and white for the President of the Open Source Initiative.

Every company that wants to be successful selling a platform must make the obcious-yet-ballsy choice to give up control for the sake of ubiquity, and Sun have made that choice, and it has profited everyone -- them, the developers and the users. ESR just can't understand that there can be freedom and beauty outside of the Brave New Open Source World. I recognize his great skills as a programmer, writer and thinker, but his ideological tendancies just get the better of him and make him spin out of control into ideological rants that don't make sense in the real world.

Let me just finish by throwing something he wrote in the Jargon File back at him, on the Weaknesses of the Hacker Personality : "Because of their passionate embrace of (what they consider to be) the Right Thing, hackers can be unfortunately intolerant and bigoted on technical issues, in marked contrast to their general spirit of camaraderie and tolerance of alternative viewpoints otherwise."

Re:Sun on IBM

[_Sprocket_]

Personally, I think having NFS, NIS, PAM, Gnome, OpenOffice, DocBook, freedesktop.org etc. developed or supported by Sun is worth more than them being sued by SCO...

The point is not that IBM is being sued, but rather what they're bing sued over; contributions to Linux. It would appear that IBM is making some pretty decent contributions themselves. This is hardly the type of activity that I would catagorize as wrapping oneself in the flag of a cause. That phrase seems to imply a much more shallow attitude than what IBM has displayed.

Re:Sun on IBM

[Aardpig]

I realise you're being humorous, but Phipps does make excellent points.

And so do you -- how refreshing to see a post which has had a decent amount of thought put into it. Nice one!

Re:Sun on IBM

[Mr. Piddle]

It's also worth mentioning that NFS is one of the biggest potential security holes in the UN*X world

The NFS documentation comes right out and says this. It also mentions something caled "Secure NFS" that uses encryption and authentication, but that's all I know about it.

Re:Sun on IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, you're being silly, no, that's an understatement, you're being a retard.

It's about Open Source, nothing with Linux, he says Sun is taking the risks in Open Source, not IBM.
He's right, because doing something NEW is taking risks, IBM just uses a successful concept, the Linux kernel.

Re:Sun on IBM

[Florian Weimer]

Sun are taking all the risks, by investing so much time and effort in Linux development.

Larry McVoy recognized the GNU/Linux model as a lifesaver for UNIX back in 1993, when he still was on Sun's payroll. The company executives ignored him. Apparently, not much has changed during the last ten years in the mindset of those people, even though the future of the company is at stake.

Re:Sun on IBM

[grigori]

Maybe he didnt want to stay at the original Evil Empire any more.

Re:Sun on IBM

[fyeles]

ESR/RMS et al have pretty much become OSS ideologues who see everything as black and white

ESR = Open Source, RMS = Free Software. Not the same thing! They don't even agree on most issues!

Re:Sun on IBM

[LeoDV]

I am very aware of the distinction. However that last quote in my post applies to the both of 'em.

Build your Own Open Source Java

[gral]

What is the problem? There is already implementations of Java that are OpenSource. All the specs are open, and allow for this.

Just because Sun doesn't want to open up their code itself doesn't mean that Java can't be open source.

Mono/C# are interesting, but I want to see C# in a couple years when Microsoft is looking for more ways to make money. All it will take is a little twist and Mono/C# will be a different implementation of C# than MS version. At that point, which one would be "Correct".

Microsoft tried this with Java. They failed because Java is held by Sun. Multiple OS's are what Sun wants for Java. They could have made a Java that ONLY worked on Solaris, but they didn't.

Again, I ask, what is the problem?

P.S. I am not a Sun Employee, I am an Open Source volunteer for OpenOffice.org.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[Screaming Lunatic]

Mono/C# are interesting, but I want to see C# in a couple years when Microsoft is looking for more ways to make money. All it will take is a little twist and Mono/C# will be a different implementation of C# than MS version. At that point, which one would be "Correct".

The one that complies with the ECMA and soon to be ISO standard. As chic as it is to bash Microsoft, Microsoft did the right thing and standardized C# and other parts of .NET. Sun did not want to relinquish control and used window dressing that is called the Java Community Process.

I don't care if Sun's implementation of Java is open source or not. But they should hand the specifications off to a standards body.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[Arakonfap]

I must agree with the parent post: Whether or not the engine/compiler/JIT is open sourced is besides the point. Having the actual language and specs a standard ECMA, or otherwise, is the important part.

Sun is free to change things to make it incompatable as well. MS could of course do this, but the standards based implementation will still be the "correct" one in the end.

Mono's implementation will still be useful because anything MS changes will need to be backward compatable with the ECMA standard - which makes the knowledge portable between a .NET implementation and a Mono one. Even if they do add extra frills, the standard ECMA version is a very useable one.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[jkabbe]

The one that complies with the ECMA and soon to be ISO standard. As chic as it is to bash Microsoft, Microsoft did the right thing and standardized C# and other parts of .NET. Sun did not want to relinquish control and used window dressing that is called the Java Community Process.

I am glad you brought this up. Microsoft submitted their current C# spec to ECMA and *hooray* it got called a standard. But Microsoft did not give up the authority to change C# in any way they want in the future. They can add to it whatever they want without consulting anyone as long as it still minimally adheres to the ECMA standard.

Sun, on the other hand, did give up significant power over the future development of Java. They are one voice in many in the JCP. They cannot dictate the direction of Java.

So, as chic as it is to write what you just wrote (I have seen it many times), it is still based on faulty reasoning.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[orkysoft]

Right. I hereby challenge you to feed the unwashed masses that consider MSIE's implementations of HTML and CSS to be correct, instead of the standards based implementations seen in other browsers.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[JohnnyCannuk]

Uhm, like the MS adherance to the C++ standard? Right, I thought so....

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[Deternal]

MS didn't want to take part in Java because "they weren't allowed to innovate" - in other words tie lock-ins to their own OS so that software for java made with MS software wouldn't work with any other OS.

Now they have .NET and are free to 'innovate'. Somehow I prefer the SUN version.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[gral]

This is exactly what I was talking about. With C#, they can do whatever they want to.

Of course, they will wait till .NET is used a little more widely before changing things.

This is of course, my own personal opinion, based on what I have seen Microsoft do in the past, and try to do with Java.

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[Screaming Lunatic]

Uhm, like the MS adherance to the C++ standard? Right, I thought so....

You're point is ambiguous.

MSVC 7.1 can compile 100% of Boost and Loki. About as good as GCC 3.3 and Intel 8.0. http://boost.sourceforge.net/regression-logs/

Re:Build your Own Open Source Java

[smallpaul]

All the specs are open, and allow for this.

I had a revelation at one of the open source conferences. Mitchell Baker said that the key aspect of open source is the ability to choose your own leadership. Implementation is secondary. In order for sun to open source Java in this sense, they would have to be open to the possibility of forks. Even Microsoft might make a fork. The programming community would choose who to follow. But Sun does not choose the programming community to choose its own leadership.

But it doesn't matter. The community will choose no matter how hard Sun tries to lock them in to Java (TM). They can use Microsoft's de facto fork C# or they can use Python. The Python community has always said that the way to prevent a fork is just to do a better job than the other guy. Sun doesn't understand that. Now Java 1.5 is playing catchup to C#. They also refuse to add the features that would make Java helpful for day-to-day use like easier code migration through unsafe code (in C#) or Pyrex (in Python). This is a critical mistake which keeps Java out of contention for building most Open Source apps. Large apps are seldom written 100% in a single language and if they are, that language is C. Other languages must learn to play along and Java is poor at doing so.

The fork has happened and it is quite possible that Microsoft will win. But the open source world cannot save Java because Sun has sole ownership of it. They would rather drive it off a cliff then let someone else at the steering wheel.

Friends of Open Source?!?!?!?!!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very interesting for them to say that when they are the same fuck tards financing SCO.

We haven't forgotten, Simon.

You are just as guilty

[Anonymous Coward]

as you have not read the article (since it was instantly slashdotted) your entire opinion is based around a few snippets of the response instead of the entire response.

Re:Already slashdotted....

[dinog]

You're right, this is a major problem. Certainly we can't have a normal slashdot discussion if people actually read the article first.

Dean G.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[AKAImBatman]

ah, the old ad hominem attack.
Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger".

It's actually a good response in situations where any response would be the wrong one. Sun could try to explain their reasoning, tell everyone about the SCSL, show all the contributions to Open Source they've made, and they'd still get skewered. At least this way, they have a fighting chance. Quite a few people agree with Sun's position and disagree with ESR. By using the ad hominem response, they're bolstering the opinions of those people and making their voices louder. Any other tack would have made their supporter's voices that much quieter.

Link to Original Article - not yet /.ed

[cbowland]

Sun fires back over Open Source Java accusations

Re:Link to Original Article - not yet /.ed

[happyfrogcow]

Oh sure, kill two servers with one slashdot article. gg.

Who cares about Java

[Anonymous Coward]

...until they fscking FREEZE the language, like they did in 1983 with ANSI-C. I haven't got any compatibility problem with C since then. On the other hand, the Java compiler keeps telling me that my old code is "deprecated". Get done with tweaking the goddamn language already, it's like admitting that you got it wrong for 8 years straight.

Re:ESR

[Anonymous Coward]

I browse with a +6 Flamebait modifier - that usually does the trick.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Kenja]

"Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger"."

I'd explain it to you, but there's no way an out of touch communist tree hugger such as yourself would understand.

Re:I say yeah!

[shamino0]

Languages should be open source, be it C, C++, Java, or C#. If they aren't, they don't seem like good languages to me!

The language specification should be open. This should include the specification of conformance tests. Otherwise we end up with many dialects that are not completely interoperable.

On the other hand, I don't think matters either way if any particular language's implementation is open-sourced. You shouldn't need to see Sun's source code in order to write a fully-compliant Java compiler/interpreter/runtime. Just like you don't need to see AT&T's (or Microsoft's or Borland's or anyone else's) C-compiler sources in order to develop a compiler that fully complies with the ISO standard. Having those sources would make it easier to port the language to a new platform, but they should never be necessary. If they are necessary, then the language specification isn't specific enough.

Mind you, I would love to be able to see Sun's sources as much as the next guy, but I really fail to see how their choice to keep their code proprietary in any way lessens the value of the language itself.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, as they also say in kindergarten, "he started it". Did you read ESR's letter? Full of the sophomoric bluster and name-calling that typifies his writing. "Sun is clueless", "Sun lost the war", blah blah blah. I for one am glad someone finally stood up to him with more than the usual standard corporate-PR blandishments.

I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[GillBates0]

Haven't had a chance to read the response, but I definetly agree with the quotes in the summary. ESR's letter is no way to write to *anybody*, and this is the CEO of Sun you're talking about...not Daryll or somebody from SCO.

The following quotes of his just make him sound unprofessional and mannerless more than anything else:

But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about.

This was totally uncalled for, I can think of a million better ways to phrase it.

Matters aren't helped by the fact that Sun appears, with Microsoft, to be one of the two companies doing most to stuff SCO's war chest for its attack on Linux.

I don't see any concrete proof that Sun is *indeed* behind the fiaSCO. You don't go about making false/unfounded accusations against people, just because you read it on Slashdot.

Re:I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[Anonymous Coward]

A nerd and open source zealot with poor social skills?! Quick, get me CNN on the line.

Re:I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[hey hey hey]

This was totally uncalled for, I can think of a million better ways to phrase it.

Really? Can you list the first 10,000 or so? I'm curious.

Re:I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[alexborges]

I don't see any concrete proof that Sun is *indeed* behind the fiaSCO. You don't go about making false/unfounded accusations against people, just because you read it on Slashdot.

Go check at the SEC filing from SCO. Licencing rev. for them begining 2003 came from SUN.

Re:I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[Trailer Trash]

The following quotes of his just make him sound unprofessional and mannerless more than anything else:

But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about.

On the other hand, this is written in Scott McNealy's (whose name rhymes with "Mr. McFeely") native tongue. Seriously, this is how McNealy talks when he speaks publicly, why assume he holds anyone else to a higher standard?

Re:I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[grigori]

They bought peecee device drives from SCO to run on Solaris. Thats it.

Re:I agree...ESR's letter was a rant..and rude too

[Anonymous Coward]

prove it.

Yeah biyatch

[Anonymous Coward]

ESR is a blow-hard and Sun called him on it. Way to not back down to the idealogues.

I find is incredibly ironic that OSS zealots ask for everything to be free, hence destroying the software industry.

Re:Already slashdotted....

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says slashdotters dont RTFA?

Re:ESR

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it's worth the karma hit for me... I just modded him +1 Funny.

Re:I say yeah!

[memmel2]

For J2SE part of the Spec is shared code so controlled by Sun. Also the spec is controlled by Sun and so are the test. They have not clearly stated that they would not attack a clean room effort. So in general your statement is not corrent. The JVM spec is open except for a patent held by Sun on what are called quick opcodes Sun does not say what they would do to someone who implemented them. So there are enough minefields in this to make creation of a open source java a careful endevour. This is why Gnu Classpath is following a strict clean room approach to development. Which does slow the process quite a bit.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[RancidBeef]

Yeah, I was wondering if he was responding to the same ESR letter I read. Whether he agrees with ESR's argument or not, I didn't see anything (in ESR's letter) I'd classify as a "rant". And what was all that about SCO? There was nothing in ESR's open letter about that that I saw.

That's a joke, right?

[Chibi Merrow]

Do you honestly think RMS would write something better than ESR on this matter? ESR just pointed out Java would get wide acceptance as an open source standard much like NFS where other Sun innovations have failed for being closed and proprietary. RMS would just point out how evil and wicked Sun is for distributing binaries without the source and not GPL'ing all their code.
I can't read Mr. Phipps' response currently, but I think he's the one out of touch on this issue after reading the well written and argued (along with politely worded) letter from ESR.

Bottom line: The Free Software community hates Sun like it hates all other developers who keep their code closed. So if you're expecting a Sun Love-In from RMS, you'll be waiting a long time.

Re:That's a joke, right?

[__past__]

Do you honestly think RMS would write something better than ESR on this matter?

I can easily imagine that. He would likely claim that non-free Java implementations are useless, and that people should support projects like Kaffee and Classpath to create a free one, instead of denying the existence and possibility of these projects as ESR did.

Re:That's a joke, right?

[aled]

You can download Java sources to your heart content, the library sources are included. What you don't get is the posibility of redistribute your changes.
OSS zealots please learn what your talking about.

Re:That's a joke, right?

[Loki_1929]

"He would likely claim that non-free Java implementations are useless, and that people should support projects like Kaffee and Classpath to create a free one, instead of denying the existence and possibility of these projects as ESR did."

Oh, I think previous experience with RMS shows that he'd write a 32,000 page diatribe portraying any non-free efforts as the anti-Christ sent by the Demon to murder all of us, and our children as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if he went on to splatter lamb's blood on each and every page, then sealed the letter by slitting both his wrists and slamming his forehead into the pool of blood on the envelope repeatedly until it dried.

Come to think of it, that might make for an amusing 'reality' show on Fox.

Re:That's a joke, right?

[mfnickster]

>> I think previous experience with RMS shows that he'd write a 32,000 page diatribe portraying any non-free efforts as the anti-Christ sent by the Demon to murder all of us, and our children as well.

That's highly amusing, but you might want to look up "straw man" in your dictionary of philosophy.

Re:That's a joke, right?

[Loki_1929]

"That's highly amusing, but you might want to look up "straw man" in your dictionary of philosophy."

I think I found it. Joy.

Re:That's a joke, right?

[Chibi Merrow]

I never claimed any different. The FSF doesn't care if you can see the code, they only care about the license that code is under. Look at their disapproval of XFree and Apache, for example. OSS zealots aren't the ones upset about Sun for the most part, it's Free Software zealots that are. ;) Though as someone else pointed out, there's already work on the Free Software front to implement a GPL-compatible Java, so I doubt that many are really peeved at Sun.

Uh huh.

[Minwee]

'In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley.'

I think he's right there. The high performance and ease of use of Sun's C Compiler did more to promote GCC than anything those GNU folks ever did. Their tireless efforts to provide an unusable toolkit and utilities throughout the lifecycle of SunOS and Solaris only proves their support for open source alternatives.

Re:Uh huh.

[ReaperOfSouls]

Amen. If I had mod points you would have them...Solaris tools to this day are the largest heaping pile wrapped in a bow.

Re:Uh huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun CC optimizer is still much better than GCC 3...

Re:Uh huh.

[Mr. Piddle]

The high performance and ease of use of Sun's C Compiler did more to promote GCC than anything those GNU folks ever did.

???

My informal testing puts Sun's cc at making executables that are a solid 10% to 15% faster than GCC.

Sun ships very decent documentation with their compiler.

dbx is awesome.

Eric Raymond's comment on Linuxshow

[bstadil]

Eric was on TheLinuxshow last night where his letter to Sun was discussed. (You can hear the show here)

The point of the letter was a follow-up to Sun's comment that they were a "friend of Opensource". There is no metric for what it takes to be a Friend and Eric wanted to put a stake in the ground for what this would entail.

The OpenSource / Torvalds creed of "Show me".

Please note that there is no accusations in Eric's letter. It would have been easy to include the SCO/ Sun tie but he refrained from doing so.

Re:Eric Raymond's comment on Linuxshow

[Geopoliticus]

This is from ESR's letter:
"Matters aren't helped by the fact that Sun appears, with Microsoft, to be one of the two companies doing most to stuff SCO's war chest for its attack on Linux."

So explain to me how ESR "refrained" from "accusations" in this case?

Re:Eric Raymond's comment on Linuxshow

[bstadil]

My bad.

I took his word for it, as he mentioned that the letter didn't contain any accusations on the show.

The Open Source Communities Response:

[Anonymous Coward]

Eric Raymond sees the world through rose colored glasses. Please disregard him.

-- Someone that actually contributes code

Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

An ad hominem criticizing an ad hominem. RTFA, he expounds on the comment immediately after making it.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=97352&cid=83 19 192

You are out of touch, and I say that because I dislike you, not because you didn't even read the comment in context and proceeded to attack McNealy anyways.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Mr. Piddle]

Fallacy: You are assuming that ESR actually wrote valid arguments and criticism.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[schon]

It's actually a good response in situations where any response would be the wrong one.

No, at most, he should have simply said "we have a fundamental disagreement in our philosophies" and left it at that.

Insulting people who criticize you is never a "good" response.

Begging the question - is Sun really our friend?

[non carborundum]

In the past few months we've seen quite a bit
of waffling from Sun regarding Linux. They seem to go from lukewarm to cold on a regular basis.

The thing that concerns me, however, is the way Sun has behaved regarding the SCO lawsuit.

Does anybody know exactly what Sun got when they gave millions of dollars to SCO?

I don't know if Sun was genuinely obligated to
ante up money to SCO, but I have no doubt that the money Sun provided contributed mightily to SCO's BS campaign and to their ability to wage a litigation war against fans of Linux and the GPL.

Sun & Open Source

[barcodez]

I have just returned from Sun's two day Tech. Day in London. They were keen to push that they were working closely with Open Source. They pointed out that they were doing things such as JDS (Sun's Linux distro for the desktop - it's pretty much just Suse atm), NetBeans (an open source IDE they support and use within Sun One Studio) and so forth.

Now you can't deny they are using Open Source, but I was finding hard to see how they were contributing. Here are some ideas:

(1.) Increased awareness - nah: they are FUDing things as their own work
(2.) Contributing IP - I can't find demonstrable, significant Sun IP that has been changed to be licensed on an OSS approved license (I maybe wrong).
(3.) Giving Java to the community - noooo, you can't even distribute the Sun JVM or JDK with a linux distro.

I think Sun want to do the right thing - I think they think they are doing the right thing - they clearly have a way to go.

Here's an example.

JSF (Java Server Faces)

This is a MVC based framework used in presentation tiers in Java (mostly web based).

Now what Sun did was hire the project lead from Jakarta's Structs to write the spec and an implementation of JSF.

JSF is a direct competitor to Structs! If a Jakarta was a company this would be an incredible agressive tactic. Hire the project lead and get him/her to develop a new more featureful version of his old product.

Re:Sun & Open Source

[JarekC]

you can't even distribute the Sun JVM or JDK with a linux distro.

What arey talking about? SuSE includes both Sun's JRE and Sun's JDK in their distro.

Re:Sun & Open Source

[barcodez]

SuSE provided sun with JDS - Sun aren't going to split hairs over licensing with them. Other distros, I believe, fear, can't afford or don't have the expertise to deal with Sun's licensing.

FFS Microsoft couldn't even deal with it.

Re:Sun & Open Source

[RodgerDodger]

Now what Sun did was hire the project lead from Jakarta's Structs to write the spec and an implementation of JSF.

JSF is a direct competitor to Structs! If a Jakarta was a company this would be an incredible agressive tactic. Hire the project lead and get him/her to develop a new more featureful version of his old product.

Let's revisit that again: they approached the lead developer of the dominant MVC web framework for Java. They said "there's this JSR to standardise MVC web frameworks, at an integration API level, so that components written for one can work with the others. Want to head it up?"

Let's think. Benefits of helping:

• Get to define an industry spec, and be personally identified with it.
• Get a heads up in modifying Struts to comply
• 
  
  
  whereas the benefits of not helping include seeing someone else getting that chance (with their own framework).
  
  In any case, Sun nearly always approach the market leader in this case. Look at who writes the EJB specs, for example: there's representatives from every major EJB vendor ('cept JBoss). That is, after all, the point: the Sun specs mandate how compliant software interacts with other compliant software. It kind of helps to get agreement.
  

Re:Sun & Open Source

[Anonymous Coward]

I was finding hard to see how they were contributing.

Well, the obvious example is SunOffice/OpenOffice. Just because they don't opensource Java doesn't mean they don't contribute anything useful/significant.

Re:Sun & Open Source

[ragnar]

I think Sun has done many a good thing for the open source community (whatever that means). They gave Tomcat to the apache group and they also contribute programmers to the effort. After purchase StarOffice they made the source available from OpenOffice.org.

As for the issue of competing with the Jakarta group, I don't see it that way. Struts "competes" with Tapestry and Turbine, other MVC frameworks already hosted within Jakarta. When you seek to hire people, you try to get the best talent you can afford.

Re:Sun & Open Source

[Anonymous Coward]

Structs sucks and should never ever be made part of the Java standard. Just because it's Open Source doesn't make it good. Maybe this project lead learned something and will ensure that the standard version is a much better API.

Re:Sun & Open Source

[JavaCreator]

bzzzt... but thanks for playing... If you actually look at the Java Desktop you will see that Sun has actually added some significant design features to the open src. stack. The community will benefit from this work. It's also naive to assume that Sun won't be adding additional features to the desktop and giving those back to the community as well... In addition (as mentioned earlier) Open Office is a fairly hefty piece of IP that Sun has delivered into the community. NetBeans is as well, but that doesn't seem to matter to the poster. There are companies that have picked up the NetBeans framework and have built products based on the code - just as Sun has done. Sun continues to contribute code back into the NetBeans community base. The JAX* RI's are other examples (as was NFS, but then I date myself...)

Re:Sun & Open Source

[aled]

In fact you are wrong, they complement and only overlap in small part.

Conversation!

[simpl3x]

Absolutely correct! With the recent mobile java win in China, Sun needs to recognize that perception is 90% of the battle, ad I would agree with ESR in general. Sun has a great technology which needs to be "perceived" as free as in beer AND speech. Certainly Sun has some points in terms of complexity, but the conversation needs to be opened, and it is. If Sun wants to have a conversation with the top people from open source, and the top people from Sun, to discuss the future of Java, this needs to happen now!

The future of mobile (which will be most of computing in the future) technologies is Linux and Java, with much of the infrastructure available for companies such as Sun. .NET will otherwise become the standard, so stop arguing. Sit down and get everybody on the same page regardless of who is "right."

Re:Conversation!

[lokedhs]

It seems to me that the Linux/Open Source community has already chosen .net, it's sad really... There are much more complaints about Sun and Java than against .net and Microsoft on this site. I just can't figure it out.

Re:Conversation!

[jadavis]

Agreed.

However, the perception is that java is largely a free, open platform. And that perception is largely accurate.

In the article the question is raised: why has nobody created a free java platform? One answer is that it's a deep platform and expensive to build and maintain. However, look at GNU/Linux and FreeBSD, which are even larger. So why no free java? Because it's already free enough for most people. Sun has reached a compromise (gasp!).

Linux and FreeBSD are answers to something like windows or propretary UNIX, which aren't anywhere near a compromise in terms of freedom. So it was much more critical.

Maybe it's good for Sun to open java more. It's definitely better for the community (and how could you argue otherwise?), but Sun needs to look out for itself to a degree. And don't think for a second that it's an "evil company" or something.

If 10% of the people who want java open donated 10% of the increased usefulness of java being open to Sun, java would be bought into the public domain in no time. So, don't blame Sun.

Perhaps what we need is a little organization. If someone started a fund to buy Java into the public domain, or buy sun engineers to maintain an open java implementation and standard, I'd donate. I don't even use java, but I figure it would benefit me indirectly enough to make it worthwhile. Of course, we need real organization, I want to either see java be open or my money again, one or the other.

Re:Conversation!

[MourningBlade]

If 10% of the people who want java open donated 10% of the increased usefulness of java being open to Sun, java would be bought into the public domain in no time. So, don't blame Sun.

First off, the desire is not for it to be public domain, it is for it to be Free as in speech. There is a difference. (probably just a slip, but it needs correcting).

Secondly, your basic Linux-based and BSD-based platforms are not designed to meet a spec that is controlled by a third party, though they may incorporate several of those specs (ACPI, OpenGL, etc, etc).

Keep in mind that whatever Sun releases as Java is Java. Unless the open source group were involved in the formulation of the next spec, they would be constantly chasing, and that's not the key to success.

In my opinion, that is the major block, and that is what ESR was talking about.

Re:Conversation!

[FredGray]

In the article the question is raised: why has nobody created a free java platform?

I think the answer is that it's underspecified. In particular, the Swing GUI is pretty much defined only by its source code. There are reasonable free replacements for most everything except Swing.

Re:Conversation!

[jonadab]

> It seems to me that the Linux/Open Source community has already chosen .net

Sure, but what do toplevel domain suffices have to do with Java?</rimshot>
Seriously, apart from a small handful of Mono and .GNU developers and fans,
I think most people in the OSS community are utterly ignoring .NET. What's
perhaps more telling is that most people in the Windows development community
are also apparently ignoring .NET. (Well, sortof. They use the VB.NET and
C# compilers, but they don't write their software any differently than before;
to them it's just the next version of VB or Visual C++. In other words, the
existence of .NET doesn't actually matter to them.)

> it's sad really... There are much more complaints about Sun and Java than
> against .net and Microsoft on this site. I just can't figure it out.

There are more (meaningful) complaints about Sun and Java because they're
more relevant. (Actually, there are plenty of complaints about Microsoft too,
but you'll notice that they're mostly terse jibes. This is because the
complaints that would have substance don't need to be stated; they are already
well-understood by all concerned.)

Java has a pretty good following. About as good as Python, approximately.
Which is to say, setting aside the Most Ubiquitous Lanuage Ever (i.e., C)
as unfair competition entrenched for historical reasons, Java still scores
at best a very distant third place after Perl and C++, which are vastly more
popular. The success of C++ can be linked to that of C, since it's based on
it. The reasons for the success of Perl are less obvious, but I think most
of them can be attributed directly to the personality of Larry Wall. For
example, chapters 1 and 2 of the Camel book do an impressive job (typically)
of making people like the language; these chapters are very typical of Wall's
writing style. (Yes, there were two coauthors, but those chapters reek of
Larry Wall. Compare them to e.g. the Apocalypse articles; you can just *tell*
they're written by the same author.)

I think it's naive of Sun to dismiss Perl because it's a "scripting language".
Perl is not Perl 3 anymore. Nevertheless, I also think it's naive of ESR to
say that Java's place has, due to licensing restrictions, been effectively
ceded to Perl and Python. Python is not so much more popular than Java that
"effectively ceded" makes any sense, and I don't think it's at all clear that
Perl's popularity is mostly due to licensing. If anything, the Perl community
is very divided on the issue of licensing. Perl runs on a wide assortment of
platforms, most of them proprietary, and is very popular among sysadmins and
powerusers on e.g. Windows. Licensing? Mostly irrelevant. You can download
it legally without paying money, what else matters? There is a bias toward
*nix in the Perl community, but proprietary unices are not considered inferior
or looked down upon, at least not generally. (Well, UnixWare is, but that's
another matter.) My take on this is that there's a bias toward *nix *mostly*
because *nix systems all come with Perl out of the box. The Perl community
would dearly love to see ActiveState and Microsoft collaborate to include
(a decently recent version of) Perl on Windows systems out of the box; that
would be the icing on the cake for Perl's ubiquity, which is already fairly
impressive. (The decorative flowers on the icing would be a working CPAN.pm
included with the MS/AS OOTB offering, but that's perhaps too much to hope.)

Re:Conversation!

[jadavis]

First off, the desire is not for it to be public domain, it is for it to be Free as in speech. There is a difference. (probably just a slip, but it needs correcting).

Calling this a correction is condescending. I merely posed it as an option, because if I said "free software" it means different things to different people. Is BSD free software? I think it is. Maybe it's not to you.

I chose the term "public domain" specifically because it seems reasonable to me that, as long as people are paying real money, that legal ownership should be transferred to the people, i.e. copyright. There exist many options of course: BSD, GPL, and public domain being several.

Who decided that the "desire" was not for it to be in public domain? I would be content with the public domain. The U.S. Constituion is in the public domain, as are Shakespeare's works, and those seem free enough to me. Although it's debatable, most likely sometime in the future all GPL works will be in the public domain due to copyright time limits (yeah, I know I'm asking for it there, but I would consider it "most likely" that a copyright, somewhere, will expire before the Sun explodes).

Now if you want to be productive and start a GPL pool, that's great. However, a lot of potential donations will be forgone, because it would not be in as many people's interests, which is what I was referring to in the post. If you actually wanted this to work, you need to be compromising and inclusive, which very well could be BSD or public domain.

Re:Conversation!

[MourningBlade]

Calling this a correction is condescending. I merely posed it as an option, because if I said "free software" it means different things to different people. Is BSD free software? I think it is. Maybe it's not to you.

Thanks for the correction, I'll watch my tongue in the future.

You make an interesting point about the BSD license (how it's an inclusive license), and I'll have to think about it some more.

Also, something interesting: Shakespeare's original works are in the public domain, but the collections of them and assemblages of them are copyrighted and still under copyright. Almost all of the printed copies available are "translations" from his scattered works.

Yet most people would say that they are free. You have to pay to reproduce them, but not to perform them (IIRC), and not to base works off of them. Makes an interesting point about what we consider freedom to be when it comes to a work.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

ah, the old ad hominem attack.

Wait a second, you just attacked the attacker with an ad hominem attack. Where in your post did you answer the OP's main points?

Double standard for Linus?

[John Harrison]

I think that people tend to view ESR and RMS in a different way than they view Linus. People in the community are aware of the contributions of all three, but also aware that ESR and RMS can come off as a bit nutty. I think this has been recognized from the start, so it isn't as much of a "double standard" as you claim.

I can't remember a time when Linus has been "disowned" as you say. What has he done/said that is offensive?

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[Short Circuit]

Well, a lot of people were pissed off that he put Linux under the GPL.

But personally, I see it as a good thing.

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[DragonMagic]

The most offensive, yet funny, thing that Linus said was that SCO was smoking crack.

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[Short Circuit]

It ain't funny. A lot of people still think he should have released it under a BSD-style license, or at least a license a little more "free" (by their definition.)

He released it under the GPL in order, I suppose in order to maintain the community mechanism then in place of everybody's changes being available to everybody else.

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[Mr. Piddle]

... ESR and RMS can come off as a bit nutty

Actually, ESR is nutty and RMS is chewy. Hence, "Nuts and Gum, Together at Last!"

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not offensive, it's Insightful +1.

Re: Double standard for Linus?

[gidds]

That's because he's a pragmatist. ESR and RMS are idealists; they do a lot of good work, but they also have their own ideas about How Things Should Be, and put time and effort into trying to change things and telling people about it. Whereas Linux generally keeps quiet, staying out of controversy and concentrating on the work he's doing.

(At least, that's my impression based on what I've read about them.)

I'm not saying either type is wrong; the world probably needs both types of people. In fact, in some ways they probably need each other.

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[Anonymous Coward]

"My name is Linus Torvalds and yes, I am your God". Funnily enough, the article thinks this was some sort of joke which it was I suppose; but I'm not the only one who thinks comments like that are unnecessary and reveal a deeper psychosis. What I find amazing is that people call RMS egotistical and yet, here's Linus, naming an OS after himself and a God complex to boot.

Somebody else said he's a pragmatist which he is, but it doesn't stop him from telling other people that they should be pragmatists too (that's what the OSS movement is all about). What he fails to understand that an absence of political opinion such as this is itself a political opinion. The difference being that his political opinion is completely devoid of reason or sentiment. I for one find that absolutely heinous and won't have anything to do with him.

The funny thing is, I didn't have an opinion at all about Linus before I read his autobiograhy, "Just for Fun". Now, I just think he's an arsehole. Sure he writes good code and keeps the Linux kernel in check but apart from that, he's absolutely useless to us.

Re:Double standard for Linus?

[sgtrock]

What I find amazing is that people call RMS egotistical and yet, here's Linus, naming an OS after himself and a God complex to boot.

Do some research, willya? Linus didn't name Linux. The guy who first put his work up on an FTP site did.

As for the God complex crack, well, it's his project, dammit. He can run it any way he likes. As long as other developers are willing to sign up to contribute, his project will continue to move forward.

Don't like the way he runs things? Fork the codebase and start a competing project! Start all the work to pull developers to your project. That's exactly what's going to happen to what's left of the core XFree86 folks, after all.

Arrogance

[Anonymous Coward]

It's this type of arrogance from Sun that makes me want to spit everytime the issue of Java comes up.

Re:Arrogance

[BrittPark]

Here, here. ESR original letter was on the impolite side to be sure, but not outrageously so. Simon Phipps's reply, however, was at least as impolite; if I were CEO at Sun I'd give him a good dressing down. It's the job of every outward facing employee of a company to treat possible customers (even ESR and certainly the thousands of open source users) with respect, or at least silence, no matter what the provocation.

And this is but an instance of Sun's attitude to its customer base and partners. As a developer at an enterprise software company selling a product that mostly shipped for Solaris I was fed up to the gills with Sun's lack of helpfulness when we hit snags with Solaris. I mean, we were selling about 300 Sun servers for them every year and they wouldn't take the time to help us out when we ran into Solaris obscurities. Luckily we had a smart team and were always able to sort out difficulties without Sun's help, but fairly early on we stopped even trying to get help.

Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[dmeranda]

Stewardship is an important issue, a very important one actually. But there are still those sticky semi-legal points which can't be completely ignored. In this respect RMS, and to a lesser extent ESR, both are our stewards of Free Software. Just because Sun may be doing a good job, doesn't mean that we can ignore the technicalities.

Compare this to other important commercial "stewardships", such as Postscript and PDF as managed by Adobe. Those "standards" are completely under the control of Adobe, but aside from some recent DMCA nonsense, they've been very good stewards from a technical perspective. I mean compare Postscript with HP's PCL...which one has served Open Source/Free Software better?

But I think the Free Software community should hold higher standards of Freedom to language technologies like Java, whereas we may be willing to give a little more slack to data formats like PDF. But you know what, if Adobe stopped being good stewards then we'd be in trouble. Same for Java, only moreso. That's the threat ESR is trying to address.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[spen]

I for one don't acknowledge ESR as being a 'steward' of Open Source. I think of him as a self appointed PR, not really for Open Source, but for himslef. He is trying to keep himself relevant (not that he is, or ever was) by trying to pick a fight that will only cause more harm than good.

There are many self proclaimed ambassadors of Open Source who end up doing more damage than good. In the end I only acknowledge those who write more code than manifestos and open letters as being the true promoters of open source.

ESR should shut up and pick up a copy of the Java standard, and then start coding with the other open source java projects if he really wants to help. If he wants to keep promoting himself as a self proclaimed emissary, at the expense of Java and Open Source, then he should probably keep doing what he's doing now.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

> ESR should shut up and pick up a copy of the Java standard, and then start
> coding with the other open source java projects if he really wants to help.

Yeah, I don't get it. What is he for?

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one don't acknowledge ESR as being a 'steward' of Open Source. I think of him as a self appointed PR, not really for Open Source, but for himslef.

He coined the phrase "Open Source". He convinced Netscape to open up Mozilla. He was the first person to document and publicise the open development model in any meaningful way. He's developed and contributed to many Open Source/Free Software projects. I'd say he's earned his high profile. He hasn't earned "stewardship" over Open Source, but I don't think he acts that way.

Of course, you seem to be mixing up Free Software and Open Source. He doesn't speak for the Free Software movement at all.

In the end I only acknowledge those who write more code than manifestos and open letters as being the true promoters of open source.

He has developed and contributed to many Open Source projects.

ESR should shut up and pick up a copy of the Java standard

Java isn't a standard. It's a specification with multiple implementations. That's the whole point. C# has been submitted to ECMA for standardization, the same way C and C++ have been standardized.

If he wants to keep promoting himself as a self proclaimed emissary, at the expense of Java and Open Source, then he should probably keep doing what he's doing now.

Last time he asked a company to open up their source, we got Mozilla. I hope he does carry on with what he is doing.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[lokedhs]

Java isn't a standard. It's a specification with multiple implementations. That's the whole point. C# has been submitted to ECMA for standardization, the same way C and C++ have been standardized.

While youre words may be accurate, the meaning is very cunningly incorrect. Yes, C# the language has been submittedto ECMA. However, implementing the language is the easy bit. The hard part is implementing all these libraries that run on top of Java. The libraries is what make Java great and without them there would be no reason to use Java.

Last I looked Microsoft hadn't submitted the class libraries to ECMA, so stop claiming they are for open standards. The whole C# submitted to ECMA thing was a huge publicity stunt, and apparently it worked.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I looked Microsoft hadn't submitted the class libraries to ECMA, so stop claiming they are for open standards.

I didn't even mention Microsoft. You have constructed - and are attacking - a straw-man argument.

My point is that lots of other languages (of which C# is merely an example) have been standardized, and Sun seems intent on keeping hold of Java. So far, they've been good about not fucking around with the base language too much, but without standardization, they are free to do so whenever it's in their best interests.

Nice attempt to derail my argument by implying I'm some sort of Microsoft fan-boy though. I hate 'em.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[lokedhs]

The point I'm trying to make is that you should not compared with C# if you want examples pointing at how bad Sun is in this respect.

You have to understand that standardising the syntax of the language means nothing. This is true for both Java and C#. The core syntax of the language is such a small part of the entire platform. You implied that Microsoft is somehow "better" than Sun because they standardised the syntax of the language.

MS is actuallly worse than Sun because they are sneaky. You aren't even allowed to re-implement the MS libraries. Well, they have said that it's mostly OK, but they can pull out various patent lawsuits (patent infrigement?) at a moments notice if a free implementation becomes too good.

Java, on the other hand, is safe to re-implement. Of course, you'll have to play catchup with Sun for every new version, but you can always join the JCP and get a say in what is added to the language. Exactly how do you do that with .net?

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

The point I'm trying to make is that you should not compared with C# if you want examples pointing at how bad Sun is in this respect.

Then substitute some other language that was originally implemented by one company, and then went on to standardization. ECMAScript, for example. Since it has been standardized, it's been taken up as the scripting language for many more applications. For example, I doubt Trolltech would have chosen it as the basis for QtScript had it not been standardized.

You have to understand that standardising the syntax of the language means nothing.

Of course it does! You may not care about it, but people who want to implement the damn thing sure as hell do.

You implied that Microsoft is somehow "better" than Sun because they standardised the syntax of the language.

No, I stated that Java not being standardized is a liability that other languages in the same space (C#, C, C++) do not have. I like Sun a hell of a lot more than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean I should just ignore Sun's mistakes because of it.

Java, on the other hand, is safe to re-implement.

You've obviously not very familiar with software patents. Chances are, when you sit down to write something more complex than "Hello world", you'll infringe on somebody's patent somewhere. Sun don't have the ability to state that you are free to implement Java, because even if they don't hold any patents (and you can never be sure of that), it doesn't mean that nobody does. Sun aren't omniescent.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[lokedhs]

You've obviously not very familiar with software patents. Chances are, when you sit down to write something more complex than "Hello world", you'll infringe on somebody's patent somewhere. Sun don't have the ability to state that you are free to implement Java, because even if they don't hold any patents (and you can never be sure of that), it doesn't mean that nobody does. Sun aren't omniescent.

And this is different to any other language exactly how?

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

He convinced Netscape to open up Mozilla.

ESR basically fed Netscape a huge line of bullshit about how hundreds of Open Source coders would magically appear and how Navigator would improve so rapidly that Microsoft could never keep up. None of that happened.

Don't get me wrong, the end result is good, but there's not going to be another Netscape which listens ESR.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[ruhk]

I for one don't acknowledge ESR as being a 'steward' of Open Source. I think of him as a self appointed PR, not really for Open Source, but for himslef.

Funny, that's how a lot of us feel about RMS. Its all a matter of how you pick your figureheads, isn't it?

I, for one, do consider ESR a 'steward' of the open source initiative. He's done as much as RMS, and isn't half so obnoxious. That is, of course, my opinion, and worth exactly as much as yours.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

He convinced Netscape to open up Mozilla. [...] Last time he asked a company to open up their source, we got Mozilla.

So he's the reason Netscape ran itself into the ground? Now he wants Sun to follow suit?? Can you really blame Sun for having some skeptism??? And mind you, it took Mozilla 5 long years to even go anywhere (a lifetime in the computer industry).

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[fbform]

He coined the phrase "Open Source".

Minor nitpick - it wasn't ESR, it was Chris Peterson. Says so right here.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[trg83]

The important thing to remember here is not who is or is not a good steward of open source or Java. The important thing to remember is that Sun owns Java. They can license it however they see fit.

Here's an analogy for all of you who think all major programming languages, etc. should be open source no matter what. Imagine I am a car enthusiast who sees a very elderly person driving a Nissan 350Z at approximately 40 mph down an interstate. Now, just because I would be able to make better use of that property does not give me the ability to dictate that old person turn the car over to me. Urging open source and advocating it is one thing--demanding it as a right from the developer/owner is another, entirely stupid thing.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

He's done as much as RMS, and isn't half so obnoxious

Oh god. ESR is obnoxious. Oh yes he is. Look up obnoxious in the dictionary and you will see a picture of ESR. Hell, at least RMS has written some pretty cool software, that excuses his obnoxiousness. ESR? H3 1S t3h SukXx0r F@gh0Rx!!!1!

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Khaed]

Even ESR doesn't claim to have coined the phrase: "I did not coin the term "open source"; I only popularized it. It was coined by my friend Christine Peterson of the Foresight Institute. While it's true that I more or less ran the brainstorming session and fortunately had enough of a clue to recognize a winner when it popped up, the creative leap was all hers."

It's the November 14th entry.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Qwavel]

Whoa, read some history please. Putting too much faith in any figurehead is very dangerous.

You can like RMS or ESR because of the things they've done, but you should be constantly re-evaluating.

If ESR writes an open message to Sun that happens to contain some really embarassing errors (eg. the stock price thing) then we should re-evaluate down. We shouldn't support him just because he is ESR or just because he is on our side.

Don't get me wrong - it's quite important to me that Sun open Java, because I'm a C++ developer who would like to switch to Java.

Also, I think that the open source community is so diverse that no one can claim to represent it. It is represented by all the individuals who help it along.

I personally really like Torvalds, but I'm always ready to change my mind, and I never accept what he says on faith.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[HuguesT]

I have a great deal of respect for both figures even if I don't agree with everything they say. One thing that should be clear though is that RMS is *not* a figurehead for Open Source, he doesn't believe in it, and he think Open Source Software (OSS) is a dilution of his original ideas about Free Software (FS), which is a completely different concept.

All FS is by definition OSS, but the converse is not true. For example RMS is adamant that the Apple version of BSD Unix, Darwin, is not FS, because Apple has final and complete control over the source. RMS considers Darwin OSS.

I'm not saying who is right or wrong, there is a place in my opinion for both OSS and FS, and even for proprietary software, but it should be made clear that ESR and RMS are not competing for the same pie slice.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you overestimate what ESR has done for the "Open Source Community".

here's a link that explains what I mean:

http://esr.1accesshost.com/

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is different to any other language exactly how?

It's not. That wasn't part of my argument. I'm not arguing that Java is bad because it might have patents. You were the one that missed the point and turned it into a "C# is bad because of patents" rant. I merely pointed out that Java isn't safe either.

Now, if you'd care to address the fact that a large number of Java's competitors are standardized and Java is not, feel free. That was, and continues to be, my point.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting that you hold Adobe up given that they have 1 patent on part of the PDF spec that they explicity prohibit anyone else from implementing.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[stripes]

Compare this to other important commercial "stewardships", such as Postscript and PDF as managed by Adobe.[...]But I think the Free Software community should hold higher standards of Freedom to language technologies like Java, whereas we may be willing to give a little more slack to data formats like PDF.

FYI PostScript is a turing complete programing language, and not just "in theory, but who would want to use it?" either. It's a pretty good language, at least if you like FORTH like languages. So if you go holding higher standards for programming languages, don't give PostScript short shrift!

Personally I think "open" languages will tend to do better, C may have been owned by AT&T at one point, but they never pressed the point. C++ also gets developed "in the open" (despite coming from AT&T also). Perl and most other popular languages I can think of are "open". Even SQL has a openly devloped ANSI core, of corse almost every DB vender pisses on it to make it "smell proprietary" (or was that to "add value"?). I think that is why it tends to be less popular then a language of it's power ought to be.

That pretty much just leaves Visual Basic and Java as definitely not-open languages that are popular (and Java tries to be open-ish, I think technically the language is, but the libraries are not).

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Josh]

It's not relevant to any of the parents - but I completely disagree about the merits of Java vs. its libraries. The language itself is reasonably good but the libraries are, at the same time, too maximalistic in the features vs. performance tradeoffs of what they do provide and too minimalistic in the virtual OS facilities that they provide to the Java programmer who is interested in portability.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[lokedhs]

Sure.

These are the standardised (ISO-standard mostly) languages I can think of right now:

C and C++ - One billion libraries, very poor compatibility between platforms, naming conventions differs wildly between teams and my favourite point: not even the character sets are the same.

Lisp - Nice language, very flexible, very much like Java in many ways. However, few users, no standard libraries for stuff like XML processing or graphics. Even basic stuff like networking is not entirely compatible between implementations.

ADA - Exactly how do you go about adding new stuff to that language? Anything even remotely like the JCP? (yes, that was a rhetoric question)

ECMAScript - To be fair to the standardisation process, let's just conclude that it sucked as much before it got standardised as after. SQL - If standardisation is so great, why can't I ever move SQL code from one database to another? I can in Java, and it's not even standardised!

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[pjt33]

What you say about Darwin raises the question - I don't know much about Darwin, but I follow Java quite closely, and the description you've given of Darwin seems to match Java. What's the difference?

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

[ESR] has developed and contributed to many Open Source projects.

Indeed, his many fine coding acheivements are described in The Emperor Has No Clothes ..... fascinating reading.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Rakarra]

I'd say Mozilla was the only thing that kept Netscape going in the browser area. Netscape was doing quite a good job running itself into the ground.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Anonymous Coward]

I think of him as a self appointed PR...

Puerto Rican? He doesn't look it.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Tukla]

at least RMS has written some pretty cool software

Yeah, but then there's Emacs....

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Tukla]

you should be constantly re-evaluating

Good point. I think I'm going to add you to my "friends" list.

No, you're bossy, so I'll put you on my "foes" list.

Wait, I've never seen you before, so I'll leave you off my lists.

But you made a really good point...!

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[Tukla]

Maybe it means Public Restroom.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[HuguesT]

You are right, RMS does not consider Java Free as Sun has complete control over the source. Certainly Sun was a right pain when it came to do the Linux port. It turned out that some group of independent developers had already done the port, and Sun just appropriated the whole lot without even proper credit. I'm not sure what ESR thinks of it.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[fucksl4shd0t]

In the end I only acknowledge those who write more code than manifestos and open letters as being the true promoters of open source.

I just read "Just for fun", actually, and one of the more interesting points Linus makes is that there's a lot more than just coding to this thing. If you really want open source to succeed, you need promoters that don't code, but instead spend their time promoting. If coding is all that was needed to get something out there and used by all, then no corporation would have Marketing and Sales departments. They wouldn't be needed.

Luckily, your tunnel vision won't hurt us at all. :) Because you can go on coding while others go on promoting, and you'll benefit from our promotions just like we'll benefit from your code. Like it or hate it, that's the way it is.

Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship

[gowen]

He's developed and contributed to many Open Source/Free Software projects

Bullshit. ESR is a self important twit and, contrary to his own claims, his contribution of code to Open Source software is almost entirely negligible.

Out of line?

[truthsearch]

I agree, but how was ESR out of line? If he were representing another company, maybe. But how is his non-corporate expression of opinion out of line? It may seem extreme, but from a nonprofit idealistic point of view what's the problem?

Out of line would be calling Scott McNealy Hitler. Or saying Sun is like Microsoft. Those kind of insults aren't called for. ;)

Completely Uncalled For

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

He just wrote comparator for the fight against SCO. Also, I have never seen him stoop as low as you have by trash talking like "I piss on him" and you wondering who'd have sex with him. If he pisses you off so much, why not just rise above talking shit on /. and meet him man to man?

I'll be betting on ESR and his martial arts vs your typing ability.

Re:Completely Uncalled For

[crush]

It is completely uncalled for. I hold no great liking for ESR's pushing of Open Source instead of Free Software but he's contributed a lot and continues to do a lot. Right now he's involved in helping out with the Fedora Core releases and issues to do with how developers can package their RPMs for inclusion. He also tried to change the way kernel compilation options were selected etc etc.

In short, let's attack him for being wrong on trying to downplay the Freedom. Personal attacks are worthless and unproductive.

FUCK ESR!

[Anonymous Coward]

ESR rubbed his tender belly. He knew he would have to visit the doctor soon; it could not wait any longer. He groaned as his abdomen throbbed. His knees buckled and he keeled over to vomit into the toilet. Once the nausea passed, he pulled down his sweat-pants to check his underwear for blood. Still none. Damn.

Dr. Zewicky entered the room smiling, "I have good news for you, Mr. SR,"

ESR smiled hopefully.

"You are three months pregnant!"

ESR broke down in tears. His mind swam in a sea of confusion. He held his head in his hands as he sobbed uncontrollably.

Dr. Zewicky put his hand on ESR's shoulder, "there, there... this is a joyous occassion!"

ESR looked up at the doctor, trying to regain his composure. He wiped the tears from his cheek, "but doctor, it's father is RMS!"

Dr. Zewicky's face grew heavy, "I see. As you know, it would be medical malpractice, neigh, crimes against humanity, if I failed to convince you to get an abortion."

ESR looked at the floor as the doctor pulled on his rubber gloves, "I'm going to have to ask you to stand up and bend over the table, Miss."

Natalie Portman sat in the waiting room at Dr. Zewicky's office. She wondered if the tests would finally show some lowering in her pheromone levels. Her eyes wandered nervously around the room. She saw something interesting hanging on the wall opposite her. She got up to examine the picture more closely.

Natalie giggled at the absurd image. A fat, pale, sweating man was bent over a table. His greasy hair was plastered to his head. A large, rubber-gloved hand was holding a grossly obese fetus. The umbilical chord was still attached and ran up into the bleeding rectum of the fat loser. The fetus wore a pan-flute on a chain around its neck.

Natalie giggled.

The air conditioner suddenly hummed into operation. Natalie felt the cool air blowing from a vent she was standing under. Every male in the room looked with widened eyes at the young actress as the pheromones wafted through the room.

The enemy of your enemy...

[Anonymous Coward]

The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

Wich is not the case here. At the moment open source has two nemesis: SCO and Microsoft.

And guess what, SUN bought licenses from SCO.

Is the friend of your enemy also an enemy?

Re:ESR IS A DISGRACE

[Anonymous Coward]

Friendly advice: you might want to replace your invalid tuxedo.org links with catb.org links.

Hugs and kisses,
Anonymous Coward

What writing?

[Anonymous Coward]

That they could go all open source and file for bankruptcy reorganization like Mandrake? Flounder in obscurity save for a silly naming dispute like Lindows? Get bought out like SuSE? Go back to closed source like SourceForge Enterprise Edition?

Looks like they dodged a bullet to me.

Re:What writing?

[B'Trey]

Sun is as much a hardware company as it is a software company.

Mandrake, Lindows, etc are new companies trying to start up with an open source model. I believe something like 75% of new restaurants go out of business in the first year. That doesn't mean that the restaurant is an unsupportable business model. Not every company that trys to link its success to the open source business model is going to succeed. That doesn't mean that none of them are going to succeed.

The question is, does going completely open source make sense for Sun? Since I've never founded or run a multi-million dollar business, my opinion is probably a bit suspect but it seems like it makes sense to me. In fact, it seems like Sun's only hope is something along those lines. Their current course is simply going to continue them along their slow slide into obscurity.

Re:What writing?

[SphericalCrusher]

I personally think that Sun Microsystems could space letting Java go Open-Source -- they already make enough money from their hardware, training, and Solaris to really notice a decline in anyone's pay check.

Re:What writing?

[Trejkaz]

Well first of all, how is their current Java license making them money? It's free (as in beer) for commercial use.

Re:What writing?

[SphericalCrusher]

Beer's not free. ;)

Re:What writing?

[dot-magnon]

Clearly you weren't updated until recently. Mandrake was founded in 1998, which is not recent in my eyes. Mandrake also has a positive turnaround as from last year as far as I can remember, and thus is out of the discussion ;)

Just my two cents worth of updates.

Re:What writing?

[BetterThanCaesar]

More like "free as in coffee."

Re:What writing?

[fucksl4shd0t]

The question is, does going completely open source make sense for Sun? Since I've never founded or run a multi-million dollar business, my opinion is probably a bit suspect but it seems like it makes sense to me. In fact, it seems like Sun's only hope is something along those lines. Their current course is simply going to continue them along their slow slide into obscurity.

Well, to answer that question, let's look at the problem.

Sun used to sell workstations, iirc. I seem to remember that that was all they sold for a long time, and then when commodity hardware beat them out of that market they went to servers. Someone correct me here if I'm wrong.

In any case, Sun has never been in the really high-end server business. That position has been owned by IBM and Cray and a few others. The low-end server business is being eaten up by Microsoft and Linux, with Linux taking a rise because it has all the advantages of Windows on the low end servers and none of the disadvantages (the advantages being the hardware platform :) ).

Lately, Microsoft and Linux have both been working into the mid-range server business, and Linux has been taking a bit of a hold in the high-end computing business, although the 2.6 kernel is supposed to open up the high-end server business, Linux is being deployed on supercomputers now. Or rather, it has, but it's getting even more popular.

IBM's gone with Linux, and you can expect IBM to stay in the high-end server business. IN fact, they do end-to-end integration, so they're all over the market. I'm expecting IBM to make a decent showing in the desktop business market as well, but that is still a ways out, I suspect. NOW, unlike before Microsoft started into the server business, right now we also have HP (who've been there for a little while) and Dell working through the server business, so the big players in servers are IBM, Dell, HP, and Sun. Oh yeah, and Microsoft, but they're not a hardware company, right?

Of the big players, IBM, Dell, and HP are all supposed to be moving to open source stuff. Of them, IBM is the only real development house, Dell and HP just rebrand other people's stuff. On the proprietary side, you have Microsoft and Sun. We have all seen how Microsoft devours proprietary companies like there's no tomorrow, and we've also seen that they can't hurt open source companies. They might be able to drive one or two out of business, only to find new ones springing up, and the technology is always growing. In the past, Microsoft could devour a proprietary company and in the process move ahead in the market. Now, if they devour an open source company, they don't go anywhere in the market by doing so. So they're forced to compete in other ways.

So that's what Sun is looking at right now. If they remain proprietary, they have to compete with open source just like Microsoft. The writing on the walls says that Microsoft will fail, ultimately, although it'll probably kick around the same way IBM kept kicking around through the 90s. And maybe Microsoft will make a comeback, but it'll never be as dominant as it was 5 years ago. If Sun goes open source, they have to compete on hardware with IBM and the others. IBM is moving to commodity hardware and many of its servers are built on commodity hardware, with the fancy stuff only available if it's absolutely necessary. Dell and HP are sticking with commodity stuff completely, apparently, and are making their own inroads. So even if Sun does go open source with software, how will they compete with hardware? Their hardware is NOT commodity hardware.

So Sun has two choices, really. "Do we keep our software proprietary?" They've tried to say 'no, we go open source', but are throwing around a very mixed message. Also, "Do we keep our hardware proprietary to ourselves?" If they want to stick with the SPARC thing, can't they go PPC and still do their special Sun magic? That would allow them to collaborate with IBM and Apple, and Apple is poise

Re:rings a bell. . .

[jafac]

(yes, I admit I didn't read the whole article, because it was instantly slashdotted).

Well, the response was still, a gross disservice to Sun's position. By descending to ESR's level, Phipps has left the arugment open - and there will continue to be whining and hand-wringing. Sure - no matter how good your argument is, there will always be folks who aren't convinced.

But at least he could have tried some well-reasoned arguments like this post:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=97352&c id=8319 213

Re:I say yeah!

[randyest]

They have not clearly stated that they would not attack a clean room effort.

Hmm, sounds to me like they just did, but you'd have to have actually read the article to know that:

'The question he should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it's on the 'too hard' list. Sun would support an Open Source version of Java, but it need a lot of money and time to do so. You can't just flick a switch. Right now Sun has higher priorities in the form of Java 1.5,' he said.

Now what are you waiting for, Sun to make it for you? Don't hold your breath. But don't waste it complaining about a threat from Sun that doesn't exist, either.

appropriate

[Dave_bsr]

nice. how does it go?

"Counted, counted, and you're time is up?"

I'm not sure..

Re:appropriate

[orthogonal]

nice. how does it go?

"Counted, counted, and you're time is up?"

The Aramaic words "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin" may be translated literally as, "It has been counted and counted, weighed and divided."

But in an effort to reach out to modern readers, a newer and more accessible translation (which nevertheles retains for metrical reasons the Old English form "belongen") renders it as:

"Pwned, Pwnded, make your time, to us are belongen all your base."

Re:appropriate

[Anonymous Coward]

Mene Mene Tekel [U] Parsin

The [U] is a particle meaning 'and' which is retained because that section was written in Babelonyian (not Aramaic, unless I'm sadly mistaken--yes, there are several sections of the OT which are not in Hebrew, which is the actual language most of it is in, even if most of the Hebrew people went about speaking Aramaic most of the time--SFAIK, there isn't much Aramaic in the OT, though there are various other lanugages in there... you can check out the translation notes of your Bible* if you like to check up on me here)

So the actual four words written by the hand (and yes, this is where we get the phrase "you can see the handwriting on the wall" from) would've been:

MENE MENE TEKEL PARSIN

Still, by all means, check up on me here. It's been too long since I've read that particular passage.

* I don't meant to exclude Jews here, but most of them read the Torah in Hebrew to begin with, so...

I thought Sun..

[herrvinny]

...was pretty good about Java. I've been writing in Java for a long time now, and I like it a lot.

The only gripe I have is that a lot of systems don't have the newer Java 2 VM (it's been out for a few years now, people, update your VM already). A lot of people are still operating with the older standard, so I have to keep the older JDK 1.1.8 development kit around. Sun, if you're reading, launch an ad blitz, educate the nontechnical to visit java.com and grab an updated VM. And make sure you hit some of the "neglected" computer users too, such as school districts. Perhaps press a few million CDs with the Java VM and offer to mail them for free, or reduced postage?

The Java of today is much better than the perceptions of many developers. Java is decently fast, the Swing packages offer a lot of flexibility, i/o support is terrific, etc.

Just one last plea: PLEASE, SUN, stop labeling everything you sell Java. You're diluting the brand.

Re:I thought Sun..

[Anonymous Coward]

Brand? Java is now a brand, too? Lesse... Java the language, Java the class library, Java the run time, and now Java the brand. Did I miss one? Seems that Sun(tm) has done a good job already of diluting Java(tm)(R)(c).

It also seems that you've fallen for the "write once, run anywhere" claptrap and now bemone the fact that it wasn't all that. Take the blinders off, man: the reason your stuff isn't compatible across versions is the same reason that you have to debug your code everywhere. The promise of the marketing campaign has not been realized, nor will it ever be.

Java: the first language to have a multi-million dollar ad campaign, and probably the first language to need one.

Re:I thought Sun..

[Anonymous Coward]

Use a real programming language. C/C++

And like most poor c/c++ coders, you can't count! c/c++ are two languages.

but you're right about java being a steaming pile of kitty doo doo.

Eric Raymond's Open Letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Quoted from Eric Raymond's letter:

But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about. Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked.

This suggests to me that Eric Raymonds doesn't really know what he's talking about. Oh yes, let's look at Red Hat!

For the most recent annual period (taken from globeinvestor.com), Red Hat had revenues of just over 90 million, and net income of -6.3 million. Open Source does seem to be working for them, doesn't it, Eric?

Sun's support for OSS Phony

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun, like many others, are just jumping on the OSS bandwagon. Anyone who believes that they are really behind the OSS movement is naive. At least MS isn't trying to hide who they really are. Sun would close the door and lock the key if they could; OSS for them, is a timely marketing campaign.

Re:Sun's support for OSS Phony

[Trejkaz]

Well, you can download the source for Java. I think the issue at hand was openness and 'free software', because the source is already there for you to read.

Re:Sun's support for OSS Phony

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is killing Solaris. Why would Sun really want to support OSS? Maybe they are just grudgingly supporting it because they feel that they do not have any real choice.

Re:Sun's support for OSS Phony

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot...Linux killing Solaris, talk about naive. Linux can't touch Solaris on scalability or reliability, capability, applications, support, and damn near every other aspect of being an operating system.

You have no idea how serious Sun is about Linux because you don't see all the behind-the-scenes work. There are many dedicated programmers at Sun working on open source software. Sun is pushing Mozilla, gnome, evolution, and tons of other open source projects and packages internally, as well as opened the source to StarOffice. I've seen the work internally and I can tell you the push is VERY real. Refining, adding capabilities, releasing the code back into the wild.

You can now buy Sun servers with Solaris or Linux preloaded and get full Sun support for either OS. (Linux doesn't scale to the big machines yet, but you still have a choice on low-end 8cpu boxes.)

Next month there's a Sun conference in Denver Colorado, part of the conference is a JDS (Suse Linux) installfest for employee laptops.

Get your head out of your ass.

Re:Sun's support for OSS Phony

[Curtman]

Linux isn't killing Solaris, if anything its helping it. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but I doubt Sun makes its money from Solaris either. Solaris exists for the same reason the other vendor's Unix offerings exist, to compliment the hardware, not because they can make piles of money off of it.

Sun is a friend of open source?

[rbird76]

Then perhaps someone will explain being why Sun paid SCO $8M for a worthless SCO licence (along with Microsoft, themselves no friend of OS). Paying that money has essentially funded SCO's attempt to discredit and/or destroy OS (Linux) by charging users for "intellectual property" that SCO claims it owns. The money has funded the bottomless FUD/BS machine that is Darl McBride and cronies. Either Sun is a friend of open source and was extraordinarily naive or Sun was behaving as an enemy of OS in helping SCO to poke holes in the tires of Linux in order to preserve its Solaris business. Or somewhere in between.

If Sun's actions in the case of SCO are the behavior of a friend of OS, then either Sun is utterly clueless or their definition of "friend" is nonstandard.

Re:Sun is a friend of open source?

[lpp]

Sun owes it to their shareholders to make sure the company remains profitable. From their perspective (and obviously as opposed to virtually every other company out there), it made sense to pay the fee and not have to worry that any of their clients would jump from Sun's Linux based products due to some licensing nit.

In addition, if it is proven that SCO was wrong, Sun could possibly sue to get their $8 mil back. They would be out legal fees but would have a strong legal leg to stand on should they need to push the issue.

Re:Sun is a friend of open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then perhaps someone will explain being why Sun paid SCO $8M for a worthless SCO licence (along with Microsoft, themselves no friend of OS).

Sun didn't buy a worthless license. SCO has an implementation of driver technology that Sun needed in their bid to revitalize Solaris on X86 processors. In fact, they picked up hundreds of drivers. Now, if you have any suggestions as to other System V Unixes on X86 with a large base of relatively recent drivers and driver technology that Sun could have used instead, I'm sure that Sun would love to hear about it. Until then, Sun has a real business to run, and buying IP from SCO no doubt saved them an enormous amount of time, and maybe even money.

Bottom line: this has nothing to do with SCO attacking Linux. Sun was just taking care of business.

(By the way, you do know that Sun has deals to sell something on the order of 500,000 - 1,000,000 of the Linux based Java Desktop systems a year, don't you? You do know that Sun sells servers with Linux, don't you?)

Re:Sun is a friend of open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft, themselves no friend of OS

I agree, Microsoft is no friend of Operating Systems.

Re:Sun is a friend of open source?

[ncr53c8xx]

Sun owes it to their shareholders to make sure the company remains profitable. From their perspective (and obviously as opposed to virtually every other company out there), it made sense to pay the fee and not have to worry that any of their clients would jump from Sun's Linux based products due to some licensing nit.

SCO has a responsibility to its shareholders too. And look what they ended up doing. Sun has been using SCO FUD in their advertisements--they say that you won't have to worry if you use Solaris instead of Linux. And they are pushing the Java Desktop System, which doesn't have much to do with Java. They have stated that their aim is to replace Linux with Solaris. Note what they did to Cobalt before they sank the company--replaced AMD machines running Linux with Solaris.

In addition, if it is proven that SCO was wrong, Sun could possibly sue to get their $8 mil back.

Uhmm ... SCO has no other revenue than the licensing crap they have been pushing and the only money they have is what SUN and MSFT gave them.

Open Source better off without ESR

[Euphonious Coward]

Here's what I wrote on Advogato:

The Open Source world is in pretty sad shape when it finds itself pleading with some rapacious corporation to free a stupidly-designed language created, in the first place, just to attack some other even-more rapacious corporation. Sun is free (and welcome) to make itself irrelevant to Free Software, and the world at large. It would already be forgotten if not for its multi-billion dollar bank account, which (incidentally) feeds OpenOffice and SCO alike. Java is already irrelevant to Free Software. As Sun fades from our minds, so will Java, and good riddance.

It makes me feel better to think that Free Software is not in similarly sad shape. Then I look at the Mono and dotGNU projects. They're not begging anybody, exactly. One might say, rather, that they're asking for it. I'm not sure which is worse. I guess this is what mainstream is like: fools make themselves irrelevant, the rest of us (or "them", maybe) go about our business, and it all comes out OK, because we're not in the middle of an apocalyptic struggle any more (silly SCO sideshow notwithstanding).

Re:Open Source better off without ESR

[nate1138]

Java is already irrelevant to Free Software

Hmm, you may want to tell that to the developers over at the Jakarta Project.

I use Open Source (Linux, Apache, MySQL) every single day, and I happen to do most of my development in Java. There are TONS of open source components that use Java.

How about IBM? You don't think that Java matters to them? What about Eclipse? Pure Java (and a great IDE for just about any language). Next time, think before you open your mouth.

Re:Open Source better off without ESR

[Euphonious Coward]

I didn't say Free Software was irrelevant to Java. Without Free Software, Java (like Fearless Fly without his glasses) would be Helpless. What I said was that Java is irrelevant to Free Software. In other words, Free Software doesn't need Java. There is no important Free Software written in Java, aside from what Java coders (and only Java coders) use themselves.

Once Sun fades out of the picture, IBM will no longer see any need for a Java presence. Java is an insular world that will fade away unnoticed and unmissed, like the PL/1, Pascal, and Ada worlds before it, leaving barely a trace. Free Software will be the better off for it.

Re:Open Source better off without ESR

[nate1138]

You aren't paying attention. The breadth of development options (including Java, Perl, Python, etc, etc) is a large part of what attracts people to Free Software in the first place. Java/Tomcat/Apache/Linux is really the only web application stack Free Software has that can go toe to toe with .NET, for people seeking that kind of environment.

bah

[bmajik]

the only issue ESR raised is the same one he (unintionally) raises everytime that he opens his mouth or his text editor:

people should ignore him completely

Re:Mono????

[Anonymous Coward]

Mono....I had mono once. Made me dead tired. Could barely get anything done, I was dragging so badly and so slow while fighting the disease.

So of course they'd name a programming laguage after it. ;)

RTFA

[Stone316]

There appears to be a number of counter arguements in there.

Oh, please.

[sammy baby]

This isn't, strictly speaking, an ad hominem attack.

"Ad hominem" refers to a form of logical fallacy where you attempt to discredit the person making an argument, instead of the argument they actually made. Had Phipps simply said, "ESR is a doo-doo head, and therefore his argument holds no water," it would be one thing.

However, that's not what happened. Phipps spent some time pointing out specific problems with Raymond's analysis. They are (paraphrased, and without critical analysis):

• Raymond takes McNealy's comments out of context.
• Raymond fails to note important contributions made to open source by Sun
• Raymond makes an ill-advised comparison between Perl and Java
• Raymond misstates Sun's control over the Java programming language

Regardless of your opinion of the merits of Phipp's analysis, it certainly rises above the level of "tree hugger," or "communist," two epithets which would be ridiculously applied to ESR, an avowed gun-nut and libertarian. In fact, other than referring to him as "out of touch," I don't see a single negative statement regarding Eric Raymond personally in the article.

But hey, way to go with your sly anti-businessman attack. Because as everyone knows, MBAs are all simpletons and schoolyard bullies.

Re:Oh, please.

[crush]

Actually there are two possible types of ad hominem one of them is valid and the other is a fallacy.

A valid ad hominem occurs when a protagonist has made a statement of the type "I am an X and therefore my experience allows me to state Y", to which the valid response is "You are a flawed X in some manner and therefore you can't state Y".

An invalid ad hominem would occur if the respondent were to counter instead with "You are a flawed Z (where Z has no relationship to X at all) and therefore can't state Y".

See this link for a better description.

There is an element of valid ad hominem in the response to ESR when it is said that ESR is "out of touch". The truth of this is arguable, but the form of the argument is a valid ad hominem.

Re:Oh, please.

[sammy baby]

Good call. I suppose I should have written, "Well, it's an ad hominem argument, but... you know. The good kind."

I wonder if that means I'm guilty of an entirely different logical fallacy.

The issue

[gacp]

License the issue? Yep, darn righto. License *is* the issue. Too bad.

Re:I say yeah!

[memmel2]

Then they need to clear out the legal minefields scattered through java ( patents and shared source ) In a legal document. More important they need to clear up how much if any of the specifcations and documentation can be used for a open source project. Later they need to clear up how compatibility testing work. Sun may be busy with 1.5 now but these issues have existed for years. If the explicity support Gnu Classpath in a verbal letter thats fine. Unless Suns lawyers are coding on 1.5 I don't see how these legal issues are affected by work on 1.5. SCO is the only company I know where the lawyers are also coders.

He contributed a lot to emacs.

[Anonymous Coward]

His contributions to emacs are in terms of LOCs second to RMS. He is a good coder and he gets a lot of work done.

His political views are over board. But that does not mean that he is not a good hacker.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

However, if they give a legitimate rebuttal to ESR's rant they lend some legitimacy to ESR, which is what they don't want.

ESR's tirade undeserving of rebuttal

[TrollBridge]

Lines like "But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about." IMHO aren't deserving or a response.

If ESR wants to engage corporate executives in serious, productive dialogue, I suggest that he stop insulting the people he is trying to win over to his cause.

Embrace and extend is orthogonal to open source

[Wesley Felter]

There are already incompatible versions of Java: BulletTrain, JET, GCJ, Kaffe, Chai. If MS wanted to ship an incompatible Java VM, they could just write it from scratch; they don't need Sun's source code.

Re:Embrace and extend is orthogonal to open source

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they did. Because of Sun keeping the control they did, they were able to stop the forking by stopping them from distributing the version they wrote. with GPL, they might not have been able to do that. Then again, they might have, but who knows...

Bless you my child

[Chibi Merrow]

Of course the funny thing is that years ago when I complained about Sun's compiler on Slashdot I got told I was an idiot. :P

far too simplistic

[jbellis]

MS could easily write extensions that require the win32 libraries to be present. Even if the changes to the SDK were released, you couldn't use them on any platform whose OS didn't provide the requisite MS libraries.

Re:far too simplistic

[Anonymous Coward]

but the java trademark will always belong to sun. microsoft couldn't call that java. the could name it something else, for example DOTNET... and it's what they did, they just rewrote everything from scratch instead of just adding some extensions for win32.
more on this: microsoft has put so many money on dotnet that maybe they wouldn't even try again to embrace and extend java.
so the perfect moment for a Free java is NOW. otherwise at this rate sun in the future will be shipping more apps written in c# (some bits of mono in the future gnome) than java in their own JAVA DESKTOP SYSTEM. ironic, isn't it?

Re:far too simplistic

[Elwood P Dowd]

Um... Good point.

Re:far too simplistic

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

But this is true even with a closed source JVM--microsoft just writes a Java library using JNI that relies on Win32 libraries. Basically, do exactly what Apple did when making the Java interface to Cocoa. I can't take that Java Cocoa application and run it on Linux, can I? (Unless GNUStep is way the heck more advanced than I realized.) (Apple just did it because Java is such a ripoff of Objective C that there was no reason not to make the libraries work in Java as well.)

I agree!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why doesn't ESR put his ramblings in CVS first?

There are reasons why Sun can't open-source Java

[ChiralSoftware]

I imagine the big one is patents. All large companies like Sun have cross-licensing agreements with all the other large companies in the areas they work in. All of these companies have hundred or thousands of patents, and they all know that fighting over patents in court is not the way they want to spend their resources, so they cross-license. Sun's lawyers have probably said (correctly) that some aspects of Java may be protected by some of these patents. There is a lot of innovative computer science going on in Java: virtual machines, JIT compilers, the HotSpot optimizer, and many others. By licensing something under the GPL, the licensor also grants royalty-free patent use, which Sun can't necessarily do because of cross licensing. So it's a mess. I believe the same issue affected BeOS.

Similar issues apply to copyrights. I assume there are portions of the Java implementation which are copyrighted from other companies which have licensed to Sun, but do you think these agreements are compatible with Sun putting something out under GPL or BSD? I wouldn't think so.

All of this is a bummer, to put it one way. I can think of some awesome projects to do with Java. How about a TRUE Java Desktop, where we take just enough of the Linux kernel to boot, and rewrite most of the system (device drivers and all) in Java and run the JVM essentially on the "bare metal" with all the apps in Java? That would be awesome, but impossible unless the JVM is Open Source.

Ah, and this brings me to MONO, a project which is a tragedy because it is walking into a big trap called "patents".

The right thing to do is to put the effort into gcj and Kaffe to bring them up to commercial usability. I really think it is time to abandon C/C++ for writing apps. We could debate this all day long (ok, on /., we could debate it until the heat death of the Universe) but the fact is that C++ is a pain to work in and lacks the safety features of Java. I would love to see Open Source development shift to Java. I am scared of Open Source development shifting to MONO/C# because I know that it's a trap.

-------
Create a WAP server

Read the longer version

[Mr. Underbridge]

Notice how Phillips takes the cheap shot ("rant") in order to play to ESR's current unpopularity with the slashdot crowd? He doesn't try to refute the issues ESR raises.

He did in the non-excerpted version. He mainly says that making a full OSS version of Java would be expensive, and doing this for free isn't a workable business model. He also says that ESR is wrong about Java being closed, citing the community development aspect of it. He also mentioned a lot of other OSS friendly things they've done, and pointed out that ESR's attacks were very narrowly focused and ignored things that didn't jive with the conclusions he wanted to draw.

I think Sun didn't need to take those cheap shots, but he did mention a number of other things as well. Basically what it comes down to, I think, is that they need to make money because they're a company and they haven't figured out how to reconcile that with dreams of a free Java. And it's hard to find fault with that.

I guess it's hard to be coherent when your company doesn't really know where it stands wrt open source.

I'd like to see that substantiated. First, they're a company, not a non-profit OSS charity like GNU. They have to make money, first and foremost. Second, other than turning over their code to the general public, what do they do that's not OSS friendly? Hell, turning over OpenOffice and developing a linux desktop sound like pretty good support to me.

It's hard to think of any big company who is more OSS-friendly than Sun. I think that's why he was so pissed - they've bent over backwards for the OSS community, and they got blindsided by someone who supposedly is one of the community's pillars.

Re:Read the longer version

[nonmaskable]

I'd like to see that substantiated.

Back in the BSD era, Sun did help a lot. More recently, they've been a very poor (or confused) "friend".

Sun FUDs linux routinely - remember Schwartz's FUD? "We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price..."

They coordinated the imdemmnification FUD with SCO and funded SCO's licensing initiatives and lawsuits. Just look into their weak excuses for why they needed to send money to those guys.

They label stuff (Java Desktop) in such a way as to claim way more credit then they deserve

Yes, OpenOffice and the help they give Gnome is nice. I don't know of anything else of any significance that they do.

It's hard to think of any big company who is more OSS-friendly than Sun.

You're kidding, right? IBM probably spends more on mass media Linux ads than Sun spends in total on OSS initiatives. Not to mention fighting SCO in such a way (they have other choices) as to protect Linux long-term. Not to mention contributing top-notch, hard-core technologies such as RCU, JFS, Eclipse (another Sun FUD target), etc.

Re:Read the longer version

[Mr. Underbridge]

Sun FUDs linux routinely - remember Schwartz's FUD? "We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price..."

Sure, there they're a direct competitor. But competing with linux hasn't stopped them from supporting a lot of other OSS projects, has it? And they're still dabbling in linux. And when did he say that - because as of 2.2, it was probably true.

They coordinated the imdemmnification FUD with SCO and funded SCO's licensing initiatives and lawsuits. Just look into their weak excuses for why they needed to send money to those guys.

I'm giving benefit of the doubt there for now - I don't know whether they were trying to "fund" SCO, or whether their beancounters and lawyers convinced them giving in was better than a protracted battle and risk of a massive loss.

They label stuff (Java Desktop) in such a way as to claim way more credit then they deserve

Yes, OpenOffice and the help they give Gnome is nice. I don't know of anything else of any significance that they do.

That in itself is pretty damned good, and more than comes from most big (or small) companies.

You're kidding, right? IBM probably spends more on mass media Linux ads than Sun spends in total on OSS initiatives. Not to mention fighting SCO in such a way (they have other choices) as to protect Linux long-term. Not to mention contributing top-notch, hard-core technologies such as RCU, JFS, Eclipse (another Sun FUD target), etc.

How many codes are written by that kid in the linux commercials? None that I know of. IBM is fighting SCO because they were sued, and I don't know how else they would have fought it. They're protecting their Linux investment because they made it the core of their business, as they have no equivalent to Solaris. Certainly IBM contributes a lot, don't get me wrong - but of the stuff *I* use on a daily basis - it's Sun (OO and java). And Java's close enough to OSS for me.

Bottom line is, Sun has done enough for OSS so as to deserve better than the shit they got from ESR.

Re:Read the longer version

[Anonymous Coward]

Schwartz's comments were published in
eweek, dated September 19, 2003. This
was in an article where Sun were trumpeting
Solaris, and announcing indemnification
from SCO for users of their "Java Desktop".

And taking pot shots at IBM, and trying to
capitalize on all the SCO FUD. Which was
all after they gave SCO some millions of
dollars.

Sun is a part-time friend/full-time enemy
of Linux as I see it.

ranting aside....

[MoFoQ]

I vote that sun release java source, IN java for educational purposes...especially since most school's CS depts have switched to java for their programming cirriculum.

Uh... Riiight.

[Svartalf]

I do believe that Microsoft ended up doing exactly what he said would happen if it were open sourced- and it wasn't under an Open Source or Free Software license at all. They took MS to court over it, even. Microsoft's response was to take their altered version, add a few extra Windows specific features and called it .NET.

If they'd GPLed the silly thing, we could have more assurances that Java would be interoperable- because any "proprietary" enhancements wouldn't be possible or would get pulled as they'd be infringing.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it incredibly discouraging to know that everything I need to know about running a global billion dollar software company, I learned on the playground in kindergarten.

Um, perhaps you should consider applying at SCO. They need more people just like you, and you would fit right in!

Dumbest quote ever

[JohnGrahamCumming]

> Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask
> Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's
> when I just checked.

Yes, and the last time I checked Sun had a market cap. of $19.2B and RedHat had a market cap of $3.2B. The actual share price is irrelevant in this discussion. Sun is 6 times the size of RedHat on market cap.

In addition look at their balance sheets. Sun has assets worth $12B, RedHat has $440M. So Sun has assets worth 27 times RedHat's.

So how does the fact that the Sun share price is lower than RedHat's figure into this?

John.

Re:Dumbest quote ever

[webster]

Oh, horrors!!! My stock just split, and now the share price is only half what it was yesterday. How could the company have been so inept!?

Re:Dumbest quote ever

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition look at their balance sheets. Sun has assets worth $12B, RedHat has $440M. So Sun has assets worth 27 times RedHat's.

Hmmm...last time I looked, Sun actually built things with their own CPU.

Re:Dumbest quote ever

[musicmaker]

Wait - Sun has 12Billion in assets, and RedHat has only 400M, yet their stock is only worth 6x not the 27x??? does this say something about investor confidence?!!

Re:Dumbest quote ever

[Monkey]

Not too mention RedHat now charges a shitload of money for their flagship product.

I find it ironic that he chooses to compare Redhat, which primarily sells a product containing over 90% open source software for money, to Sun who gives away their proprietary product for free.

What is his point again? Does he think Java will be more sucessful if Sun open sources it and then sells it to people?

Re:Dumbest quote ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Redhat might charge a "shitload of moeney" but that's only for them to compile it for you. You can download the source for free and do it yourself ....

Re:Dumbest quote ever

[mikera]

Not much about investor confidence. Mostly it says a lot about the deficiencies of accounting in capturing the real value of a company.

The value of assets on the balance sheet are determined by a multitude of archaic accounting rules, so don't actually correspond very closely to the real value of the assets. Some assets like human capital, brand and intellectual property don't appear on the balance sheet at all.

For example, Red Hat has a pretty good brand for a company of its size, which isn't included in the assets but contributes a lot to the market cap.

There's also the issue of how much debt a company has (which can allow it to purchase more assets without a corresponding increase in market cap) which can distort comparisons like this. Though IIRC neither Sun nor Red Hat has much debt in this case.

In theory, a company's Assets should be equal to the value of its Liabilities(Debt) plus its Market Cap, but in practice it never works out that way for all the reasons mentioned above.

Phipps is right, but...

[Spazmania]

Phipps is right, but so is Raymond.

Java's major consumer right now is large-scale contractors. Particularly government contractors. You know, the folks who care about CMM3 and similar such stuff. Those folks couldn't care less about open source or closed source. The only thing that worries them about Java is sun's stock price -- an indicator that Sun may not be around much longer.

If Sun is missing the boat with those consumers, they're doing so in their failure to charge enough money for Java's use. These organizations have big budgets and could afford to pay Sun for Java if Sun could figure out how to ask.

On the other hand, ESR is right too. Windows is an aberration in the history of computing in the sense that just about nothing else has ever become and stayed ubiquitous when the company that started it held the reins too tightly. Even Windows didn't hold the reins tightly on its rise to ubiquity -- DOS was widely pirated by computer vendors without retribution and Windows leveraged that existing monopoly on its rise.

Sun has a choice to make with Java: They can keep 99% of a small market or they can keep 20%-30% of a market that's 10 times larger or more. They seem to have chosen the former, and their stock price reflects this.

I have to disagree with ESR on one point, though: The key problem with Java is not that it isn't open source. They key problem is that the presence of the runtime environment is not transparent to the user.

If you're using a C program or a visual basic program or a fortran program or a just about any other kind of program, you don't know it and don't care. The program installed itself when you clicked on the install file or when you told the package manager to go get it. End of story.

If you're running a Java program, you know it. You know it, because you had to go through Sun's specific Java installer, and read and agree to a massive click-through license. You had to do that even if the Java program came with a JRE.

If Sun wants Java to become ubiquitous, they will have to give up the click-through license on the JRE and also give up control of the installer for the JRE. No other language's runtime libraries require such a ridiculous thing, and none should.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[easter1916]

Java's major consumer right now is large-scale contractors. Particularly government contractors. You know, the folks who care about CMM3 and similar such stuff. Those folks couldn't care less about open source or closed source. The only thing that worries them about Java is sun's stock price -- an indicator that Sun may not be around much longer.

Not entirely true. In my experience, the vast majority of large-scale users in the metro St. Louis area (which has plenty of government and defense contractors) are public and private companies such as Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Anheuser-Busch, Charter Communications, AG Edwards, Edward Jones, Mastercard, Bunge North America, etc. Not a government contractor in there.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[ragnar]

I own some Sun stock that is in the crapper too, but I somewhat doubt that making Java open source will patch things up for Sun. They don't make any money from Java directly. The marketplace will only value their stock more if they expect Sun to earn more, which will happen if they sell more product or trim costs.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[jafac]

They key problem is that the presence of the runtime environment is not transparent to the user.

BING-fucking-GO and A-MEN!

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[Spazmania]

They don't make any money from Java directly.

They should. They should charge a per-machine license on the order of $50 in a shareware (but not crippleware) style setup. If they did, I might consider buying Sun stock. I've read the jobs boards where half the jobs want someone with J2EE experience.

Right now, Sun is stuck in the worst of both worlds. They don't make any money on Java because they give it away for free and they don't get and productivity boost from outside programmers because they keep the project closed-source.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[x3ro]

The comparison between running C and Java programs is unfair. C programs compile to native machine code. Java apps are platform-independent bytecode that are run over a JVM. Its not just a runtime library but a virtual machine that allows Java apps to run the same anywhere, everywhere.

I guess the real problem is not the fact that a JRE has to be installed, but that it's not bundled with every OS.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[Spazmania]

Most C programs use dynamic libraries (.so or .dll depending on your OS preference). On major programs, many of these libraries were supplied by third parties but installed transparently by the new program. These shared libraries (and the ones already on the OS) are, in effect, that program's run time environment.

Java programs need a bigger run time environment than C programs, because as you mentioned they're not in the native processor and OS's instruction set. But other than size its really no different.

There is no technical reason a major Java app couldn't bundle JREs for the major OS's on its install CD and include stub installers for the major OS's as well so that one simple click installs the program just like any other. The sole reason that they don't and can't is that Sun requires the JRE to be installed with Sun's installer.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spazmania wrote:
>
> They key problem is that the presence of the runtime environment is not
> transparent to the user.
>
> If you're using a C program or a visual basic program or a fortran program or a
> just about any other kind of program, you don't know it and don't care. The
> program installed itself when you clicked on the install file or when you told
> the package manager to go get it. End of story.
>
> If you're running a Java program, you know it. You know it, because you had to
> go through Sun's specific Java installer, and read and agree to a massive
> click-through license. You had to do that even if the Java program came with a
> JRE.
>
> If Sun wants Java to become ubiquitous, they will have to give up the
> click-through license on the JRE and also give up control of the installer for
> the JRE. No other language's runtime libraries require such a ridiculous thing,
> and none should.

A user shouldn't be the one doing a JRE installation in the first place. It should be already installed for him by the system administrator, or pre-installed for him by his hardware vendor when they installed the OS on the PC he buys.

A much more grievous mistake is how long the Java Virtual Machine takes to load. That's how I know that I'm using a Java app: it's bloody slow to load! The other way I know is because of the look and feel of their GUI. It says to me, "WARNING: Crap Inside". A sure sign of a clunky, burdensome interface.

Re:Phipps is right, but...

[Trifthen]

Platform independent, so long as your platform has a JVM for the version of java a vendor wrote their application to support. What's that? A whole assload of shit has been depreciated since then, and the application throws up hundreds of errors? Or look, my JVM has a bug that wasn't on the JVM the developers were using, looks like they can't reproduce the crash or memory leak that keeps getting me.

Don't kid yourself. Java has just as many problems as any traditional language, they have simply traded platform dependence for JVM dependence; not really an improvement.

If Java is so independent and standardized, why isn't it ANSI standard? What happens if Sun goes belly-up, or decides they want to charge for Java once everyone is entrenched? Or was that whole escapade with the GIF patents my imagination?

What's that? Sun supports open source? Sure, for now. What happens when they change CEOs and the new CEO decides to pull a Darl? What happened to long-term thinking? Jesus, now I can see why corps dump thousands of workers for a 1% boost in stock price: nobody thinks long-term anymore.

What are you implying?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love to be able to see Sun's sources as much as the next guy,

The source code for Java is able to be seen.

That is how one does a 'build from source' on FreeBSD, you agree to some kind of Sun license. But, you can go look at the code.

Compare SUNW to RHAT by pirce?

[kid_wonder]

How about market capitalization?

Red Hat $3.2 billion
Sun $19.2 billion

nice try though. idiot.

like the old addage says:

[bsDaemon]

"it is better to be pissed off than to be pissed on." aside, you are right about stooping. also, probably about martial arts. i am only handy with guns and relativly primitive explosives.

Re:like the old addage says:

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Well at least you admit to stooping. Better than most of the guys on here. Name some of your firearms, I'm curious to see what /. packs. I have a CAR-15 (w/w orking collpsible stock), Kimber Pro Carry .45, M-1 Carbine, and a Kimber Custom CDP II .45

Re:like the old addage says:

[bsDaemon]

MAK-90 with the AK-47 furtature (stock, pistolgrip, forgrip), Rugar semi-auto 9mm, .38 Special, Colt single-action 1880s style .45, a .50-cal muzzleloader, a flint-lock musket styled as that used in the american revolution, and a couple of other non-descript rifles and shotguns. my dad's the actual owner (i'm 19) but i use them more than he does.
I'm after an M1 Garand and an M1-A (kind of like the M14) for my own personal ownership.
My dad is close to purchasinga Kimber LAPD SWAT .45

Re:It could be better

[brett_sinclair]

Sure, Sun's been a pretty good steward. But that's not the point: java could be doing so much better as free software. A free java would have at least two big advantages:

Sun has basically left some parts of the "standard java libraries" to rot. That applies to Swing in particular: no major changes here the last few years. One example: there is still no support for Cleartype or Xft, so fonts are looking pretty 1997-ish in Swing. And fonts are kind of a big deal in any gui-based app.

But more importantly: free software is more dependable. If Sun should fold, no one knows what would happen to java. If Sun gets into serious financial difficulties, it might stop making the JDK available as a free download. Etc.

That risk would disappear over night if java was free software.

At the very least, the libraries should be opened up. It is fairly easy to create an open source VM (comparatively): java's virtual machine is fairly well specified.

The libraries are much harder to implement: the fine folks at GNU Classpath are working hard to provide a free version of the library (which is used in gcj, kaffe, jikes rvm, etc.). But since large parts of the library are so poorly specified, they will always be lagging "official java" quite a bit.

Free java! Or at least the libraries.

"No Sun Is An Island" according to Rick Ross

[jg21]

Javalobby's Rick Ross doesn't agree with ESR, but he doesn't agree with Sun either, saying that "No Sun Is An Island" and urging Sun to take much more initiative in helping create what Ross calls "a cooperative industry alliance for Java platform marketing." Well worth reading.

Re:"No Sun Is An Island" according to Rick Ross

[Anonymous Coward]

Ross says, of the whole open-sourcing-Java issue: "the issue is something of a bugaboo, anyway. The source code for Java is readily available to anyone who accepts the Sun Community Source License (SCSL.) You can fix problems and submit patches to your heart's content."

Then he writes: "Eric Raymond has focused on the wrong issue. Making Java "open source" might placate a vocal contingent in the software development world, but it would not significantly raise consumer awareness and acceptance of our platform. I simply don't care all that much whether Java is "open sourced" because I don't consider that to be the central problem."

What Ross considers *IS* the problem is here.

How funny!

[Anonymous Coward]

3 minutes before you someone quoted the following part from ESR's open letter: "Matters aren't helped by the fact that Sun appears, with Microsoft, to be one of the two companies doing most to stuff SCO's war chest for its attack on Linux.

Seriously: what the fuck are you talking about?

[Lethyos]

You appear to be one of those types who heard
or read an uninformed opinion somewhere that Java
is slow, but you don't understand why so you are
throwing some jargon together to make what might
appear to be an insightful statement to
moderators.

What do you mean by "engine"? And what exactly
do you think is "bloated"? Do you even know what
optimization is?

I guess if you're talking about the runtime
environment, the "engine", as you call it, is
actually pretty lean. Java can run on cellular
phones and PDAs quite well and is far from what
you could call bloated. Granted, Java has
extensive libraries for building applications, but
so do most languages. You never load or use the
entire library, just the pieces you need. Pretty
common, really.

I cannot even respond to your comment about
optimization. It really doesn't mean anything.
Are you implying Sun doesn't use optimizing
compilers to create the binaries they distribute?
Are you saying the code is badly written for
certain architectures? Are you saying that it
runs bytecode is an inefficient fashion? Please,
clarify. One issue I can see related to this
comment is the fact that every Java program used
to require its own isolated virtual machine. With
Java 1.5, however, memory can be shared and this
problem will soon go away.

Now, I am confused by what a "simple script" is
to you. Java is not a scripting language in the
sense of most programmer's understanding.
Scripted languages are usually interpreted at
runtime, and have both weakly typed variables and
values. There are other attributes, but I am in a
hurry here. Java class files consist of optimized
bytecode produced by a compiler. You could argue
that the bytecode itself is a sort of script, but
that's a bit of a stretch. The same argument
could be used to say that any binary is a
"script".

And define "simple"! What exactly was the code
doing that managed to bring that kind of iron to a
stand-still? Sure, simple scripts can break a
machine, but they usually aren't too useful (such as fork bombs.)

I suppose there's no meaningful way to respond
to your comment. You make a few assertions but do
nothing to back them up, leaving confusion to what
the statements themselves mean.

cupl, corc

[Mainframes ROCK!]

ESR did a cupl and corc interpreter too. Who cares? I do, many of the earlier languages like these have been lost (eg. bruin, joss) because of bit rot (Ok, so flame away).

You're wrong on #2...

[Svartalf]

You forgot this little program...

Considering that OpenOffice IS a pretty major piece of IP, that Sun DID dual license under their community license AND the GPL, I'd say they're not guilty of the issue on #2.

Don't be so certain

[ultrabot]

I moved from Java to Mono/c# recently and I don't think I'll be going back.

Perhaps not back to Java, but you'll be going to the golf-plated prison of your friends at Redmond after MSFT decides that .NET is popular enough to not need Mono project as advertising anymore, and simply shuts down all the non-MSFT .NET projects by a few well-placed lawsuits.

I guess someone would say that you were asking for it by building your house out of hay.

replying to myself is bad form, but...

[rbird76]

Sun has obviously done some good for OS - as the other posters have suggested. This still leaves an open question: why back SCO?

Maybe their actions are akin to those of allies - when they have common goals, Sun helps OS. When Sun's best interest and that of OS are disjoint, they act for themselves. Allies aren't bad - they just aren't friends.

Yes, isn't it great?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, this seems to be one of those double standards. People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

We're just doing the same thing with their opinions that we do with their code: using the good parts, and ignoring or patching over or suggesting changes to the bad parts. In either case, if our "heros" produce something good we get to share it and if they produce something bad we're not constrained by it, because they're our "leaders" only insofar as most of us like their ratio of good to bad output. It's not like they pay our salaries or collect our membership dues or won lots of our votes. Sweet deal, isn't it? This isn't as big an advantage with opinions as with source code (after all, there's no such thing as a "closed source" opinion, and with a few exceptions everyone's opinions are free to differ from their employers') but it's still pretty nice.

To the people who are used to this mindset, ESR doesn't have to say "these comments are solely my own" any more than Linus has to say "Red Hat is not required to keep this patch out of my kernel", because it's almost too obvious to waste words on. With that said, however, I agree that ESR should be making those sorts of disclaimers. He's a lot less humble than Linus about who he claims to be speaking for, and he's often speaking to audiences who aren't of the same mindset and who might assume he has more "official" authority than he does.

Re:I say yeah!

[RodgerDodger]

Mind you, I would love to be able to see Sun's sources as much as the next guy, but I really fail to see how their choice to keep their code proprietary in any way lessens the value of the language itself.

You do know that Sun makes available, for free download, specific versions of their SDK?

Everything ESR says is a rant...

[aquarian]

Everything ESR says is a rant! He may be a great programmer, and he may have some great ideas. But even when he's right, he comes across as a sophomoric jackass. When I read one of his diatribes, I feel like I'm sitting in a coffeehouse at 3AM with a bunch of 20 year old philosophy students from a third rate university. So I think "rant" and "out of touch" characterize ESR very well. Grow up, Richard, and get a job (a real one).

Re:I say yeah!

[lavalyn]

Viewable, but not Open Source.

For non-developers, a non-issue. For programmers working on the clean-room Java implementations (gcj, kaffe, classpath, etc etc) this could cause another SCO or XFree86 mess.

Be wary of ESR's "analysis".

[edw]

From his open letter:

"Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked."

Comparing stock prices of two companies is nonsensical. Sun's market capitalization is over six times larger than Red Hat's. The following data is current as of approximately 4pm ET on 18-Feb-2004.

Red Hat (RHAT): $3.20 billion
Sun Microsystems (SUNW): $19.19 billion

Regards,
Ed

Have some respect

[Linus Sixpack]

They wrote the code, they license it as they want.

'Outing' Sun in public letters is pretty rude. Some may say its warranted, some may agree with ESR but I have a healthy dose of respect for Sun and I'm willing to give them some slack on a request to 'give us your copyrights because I think its a good idea'(paraphrase).

I actually think he deserves a fair treatment for responding at all. Having an 'official version' can be good for interroperability. An open source Java might be split and hijacked by Redmond. If Sun has not been the best stewards in my mind they certainly have not been the worst.

Sorry, I meant Eric...

[aquarian]

Grow up, Richard, and get a job (a real one).

Sorry, I meant Eric, not Richard...

Re:Sorry, I meant Eric...

[CrosseyedPainless]

Whoa! Slippage! Brief moment of confusion with RMS, maybe????

Open J++

[Dr. Evil]

With some of the articles on here regarding how bad a GPL Java would be for Java, it makes me wonder what would happen if MS would GPL J++.

I agree with most of what Sun says on this though, especially about there being no existing GPL implementation of Java (short of gcc's limited Java capabilites...).

The pot-shot at IBM was cute. Misleading, but I think entirely accurate. It just happens to be good business for IBM to work with Linux.

Re:Open J++

[Anonymous Coward]

J++ was based on Sun Java. Furthermore, MS can't legally distribute it any more.

MS does have a source-compatible Java clone called J#, but it's designed to work with the CLR, not a JVM.

Ring a ding ding

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever notice how that's a more popular theory than practice? You think people's emperical data might just be painting a different picture?

Besides ESR is hardly blameless. So Sun's CTO delivers unto him the wisdom of, "Dude. Still black. Keep it to yourself, you don't have much going for you besides reputation, and that's not what it might have been." Insulting? Maybe. True? Looks that way.

Technical issue

[G3ckoG33k]

There is a technical issue here, which may have been overlooked. What about run-time performance?! Hasn't ESR followed the decade-long OO discussion on Java vs C++? Or, is he stuck in the mantra? ;)

Not very good reasons

[Wesley Felter]

I'm sure you know this, but GPL != open source. Sun could release their VM under a license that says "no patent licenses included".

As for the parts of the VM that are not owned by Sun, just don't release them.

Having said all that, I agree that instead of begging for Sun's code people should just work on completing the existing open source VMs.

Make Java free software, not open source

[dmeranda]

In fact, if they made if Free Software, rather than the weaker Open Source, then the defense-against-MS argument would be moot as well. Face it, it's not really so much about protecting Java against MS's "innovations" as it is Sun being control freaks and wanting to be the sole owner of what's becoming a very important community asset. So yes, open sourcing it makes no sense for Sun, but FREE-SOURCING it makes a lot of sense and is the right thing to do.

Re:I say yeah!

[Lysol]

You can. In fact, I've peeked into the source quite a few times to make sure I knew how certain things were working. It's called the Sun Community Source Licensing (SCSL) (site appears down as of posting this).

Don't remember if it has the VM internals or not, but I have looked at the c++ code for primitives as well as fundamental Java objects. So, it's there and good to download.

Re:There are reasons why Sun can't open-source Jav

[Anonymous Coward]

you just ranted long and hard about patents.

then you claim that an OSS version of java would be fine, but mono wouldnt.

i think you should take a minute and ponder just what you are talking about, because it doenst work both ways.

either patents will prevent both vm's, or neither. because as you said, patents exist on both sides.

Yeah, nice math ESR

[Mr. Underbridge]

"But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about. Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked."

This suggests to me that Eric Raymonds doesn't really know what he's talking about. Oh yes, let's look at Red Hat! For the most recent annual period (taken from globeinvestor.com), Red Hat had revenues of just over 90 million, and net income of -6.3 million. Open Source does seem to be working for them, doesn't it, Eric?

No kidding. Even if one granted the incorrect assumption that income==profit, we're still left with the following conclusion: ESR doesn't know the difference between a share price and a market capitalization. I mean, from his analysis, Red Hat could do a 3:1 stock split, and then they'd be tied with Sun. Right? No! Gotta multiply that stock price by shares outstanding, ESR.

Another conclusion: don't go to ESR for financial advice. That comment shows he shouldn't be trusted to consider any kind of financial system, ever, and that includes his own checkbook.

Re:Yeah, nice math ESR

[Anonymous Coward]

ESR also has made some comments to the effect of "Linux will have won when MSFT hits $XX". Obviously, he's become demented by too much day-trading.

Single standard for all

[abe ferlman]

I think what you're seeing is that people are willing to endorse the things people say to the extent that they agree with them. Linus is in many ways a politician- he doesn't say much that treads into controversy, whereas both ESR and RMS are well known ideologues.

So people speak for the community when the community agrees, and they don't when they don't, and there's no bright line you can draw between the two cases unless you want to start polling people and getting actual numbers.

Sun's Stewardship Of Java

[beforewisdom]

BAD:
- of the popular java products SUN does not
make any.

- SUN's jdk/jvm runs the slowest of all the
commerical developers

- SUN interferes with other companies who do
try to make better things of/for Java

Good:
- has protected Java from being coopted,
embraced & extened, borged...whatever by
M$.

This is always a real danger. C started
as a cross platform languare too.

Sun as the friend of OpenSource

[vlad_petric]

Haaa Ha Ha. Hahahaha

Seriously, Linux is eating their marketshare. It is considerably easier to migrate from Solaris/SPARC to Linux/x86 than from Windows to Linux.

The only reason they're in bed with Linux right now is because they don't really have a choice. They in fact boycotted Java/Linux for quite a while (version 1.3 was the first, and it was also largely developped by Blackdown)

How we treat our enemies

[Supp0rtLinux]

"... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies..."...

Well, if he reads the news he should already know how open source treats its enemies. According to more than one publication, MyDoom and the DDoS of SCO is a perfect example of how we treat our enemies. Maybe this should be our new tactic. Forget marketing money, let's just threaten to DDoS all non-open source websites to oblivion. Heck, we all have the MS source code. I say its time to stand up and be the hackers that the media portrays us as instead of being people that know how to make a good (or bad) thing better and easier.
This isn't flamebait. Its sarcasm.

Only in your language...

[way2trivial]

USSR spelled it CCCP

Re:Only in your language...

[rjamestaylor]

Thanks, Sherlock!

(You did note that I made clear referrence to the 26 letters of the English language, didn't you?)

(Um, did you realize that doing so made clear that the context of my comments were "English" letters?)

(Do you think I should have mentioned the Commonality of the CCCP and CCP; of course, though both were communist organizations, the Canadian Communist Party didn't use Cyrillic letters for its initials. Do you understand why mixing the CCP and the CCCP would be a mistake whereas comparing the letters USA and USSR would not?)

(Did you know that the Beatles had a song called "Back in the CCCP?" Neither did I.)

(Have you deduced I don't have patience for meaningless corrections to problems that do not exist?)

(In the future, please use bugzilla. Thanks.)

Re:Only in your language...

[NM156]

USSR spelled it CCCP

....which, of course, transcoded back from cyrilic alphabet spells SSSR, as in "Soyuz Sovietkieh Sosialistiskieh Respubliks* " meaning Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. But why does that matter anyway. :-)

* - err, it's kind of difficult to phoniticize russian language in english

Re:rings a bell. . .

[happyfrogcow]

Insulting people who criticize you is never a "good" response.

We have a fundamental disagreement in our philosophies

I have issues with Sun's management of Java

[Doubting Thomas]

Unfortunately, I have no expectations that a fully open Open Source committee will do a better job of it.

Every day, I hear from another party about all the 'great' things they wish they could do to change java. It sets my teeth on edge to hear them talk about all the vile things they want to do to my favorite language.

At least with Sun, I know where I stand. They're going to continue slowly but surely screwing up the language, but at least they'll do it slowly. The devil I know gives me maybe half a dozen more good years of coding enjoyment before things get really bad, at which point history suggests that some newer language will be grabbing the spotlight, anyway.

If the Open Source community wants to drive the evolution of a language, they should start writing their own, instead of trying to take away someone else's. That's what I'm doing.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[jkabbe]

No, at most, he should have simply said "we have a fundamental disagreement in our philosophies" and left it at that.

Which would be interpreted to mean "everything ESR said was correct but we're making decisions for profit reasons."

No, a comment like that wouldn't have helped.

Jargon File

[KlausBreuer]

Mpf.

I used to *love* the Jargon File. I'd open it in an editor, hide the window beneath my work windows, and read it at work ;)

These days, it's all in HTML, which - strangely enough - makes it a lot harder for me to read.

Heck, I used to print this out on the high-speed printers of our VAXen (ok, ok, I'm an Old Fart) and read it sitting in the sun.

How come there's no text version anymore? Have I simply reached the age where I'm too fossilized to find an entry for it on ESRs page?

Re:Jargon File

[T-Ranger]

Back in 95/96, my first year of universiry, I printed out the Jargon File - and still have it ina 3" 3 ring binder somwhere.

I say over a school year because I did it by
- running html2ps on one chapter
- copying the ps to a DOS boot disk
- going to the one lab on campus that had {no supervision, a PS printer, an accessable 286 as a print server (netware, pserver)}
- rebooting the printserver with the DOS boot disk
- running "copy chap-X.ps LPR"
- waiting untill it ran out of paper
- waiting a week untill they replenished the paper "PC Load Letter! What the fuck does that mean?"

Now that I think about it, I must have used multiple printers, since different chapters are in different fonts....

A friend went to Sun and ended up in a Hotspot

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a bit off-topic but bear with me. It's the story of a friend from the UK who went to work for Sun as one of their top JVM guys.

Eric Raymond says

"many of the senior people in the movement are old-time Unix hackers who remember that Sun was founded by geeks like us"

. Well that's what I used to think too, but it appears to have changed. My friend went over to work for Sun a couple of years ago. One evening a few months later there was a knock on the door of his apartment. It was the police. They asked him all sorts of weird questions, searched his apartment for spanish language tapes and motorcycle gear (!) and then arrested him on charges of kidnapping (!), sexual molestation, a whole bunch of stuff.

Well it turned out that a cleaning lady at Sun had been molested in the elevator (hence the kidnapping charge!) by a guy who only spoke to her in spanish and was wearing a motorcycle helmet. This had happened in the evening. My friend being a typical geek tended to work late hours. They had gotten a list of the people in the building at the time and shown the cleaning lady a set of photos. We later learnt that my friend's photo was top left on the first page. She picked him out.

Now I've known this guy a while and he is just the last person who would do a thing like that. Not to mention he's never ridden a motorbike in his life or ever shown the remotest interest in learning a foreign language. (The police reckoned he could have picked up spanish watching TV!)

But what happened with Sun is just scary. He is in a foreign country. His brother was over visiting him at the time (who is also not a spanish-speaking motorcyclist :) but apart from that, no friends or family near. You would expect Sun to bend over backwards to help, he is after all over at their invitation.

Oh no. They drop him like a brick, they wash their hands of him. My friend - not the most money-wise of people - has some paychecks in his office drawer. He now needs those paychecks because he needs $25k for an attorney just for the initial court hearing. So his brother goes to visit Sun. He's also hoping to speak to some of my friends colleagues to be character witnesses. Well the HR guy there does his nut. Not only do they not support my friend in his hour of need (innocent until proved guilty, forget it!), they don't allow his brother access to the office where the paychecks are.

They refuse to forward the paychecks on. They refuse to allow him to talk to any other colleagues. And they finally tell the brother that if he is seen near Sun's premises again they will call the police!

Anyway, after spending a month in jail, my friend managed to stump up the $50k bail money and did a runner (basically it was going to a full court hearing with his word against hers - it could have gone either way and with a fifteen year sentence hanging over you would you take the risk?). In that month he had no contact with Sun whatsoever, his brother had to fend as best he could.

So there you go, Sun really don't give a damn about geeks anymore.

Re:I say yeah!

[RodgerDodger]

This turns out not to be the case.

The Sun Community License makes it clear that research is explicitly permitted. Research includes, for example, reading their implementations in order to come up with your own spec-compliant implementation.

Now, you can't just "cut-and-paste" sections. But you certainly can take suitable ideas and reimplement. So it's not a problem for the clean-room implementations.

The only exception would be patents; Sun almost certainly holds patents over some of the concepts implemented in the Java SDKs. But then, seeing (or not seeing) the source won't help or hinder avoid patent problems. Indeed, it's perhaps even easier to violate a patent if you don't know the details of the implementation.

ESR belittles Perl and Python

[edw]

From ESR's original letter:

"Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl."

ESR's theory that Python and Perl have more users than they deserve due to Java's merely gratis license is insulting to the people who work hard to make Python and Perl as good as they are.

Regards,
Ed

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[aled]

Putting Java in the scripting language category shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about and is insulting to the people that works hard to make just in time compilers and the sofisticated virtual machines that Java has.

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[chromatic]

The term "scripting language" is nearly meaningless, but it certainly does not preclude a JIT or a sophisticated virtual machine.

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[aled]

Ok, but I still think that Perl and Python are more comparable than Java.

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[edw]

But on what basis do you think that Python and Perl aren't in Java's league?

I don't believe that there are programming languages and scripting languages; I believe that there are programmers and scripters. Programmers can create abstractions, while scripters only know how to use them. The wealth of pre-made abstractions make Python, Perl, and well as Java very appealing to programmers and scripters alike.

Regards,
Ed

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[aled]

You are making me cuestion my beliefs! is there no more religious freedom in this world? :-) May be I'm talking just out of "feeling", I'm not finding a rational support for the grouping scripting /non scripting languages by looking at the grammar. It doesn't means there isn't one?
On the other hand the classification by its use seems clearer. Normaly I don't say I did a script in Java to parse a file or configure something.

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[chromatic]

It might be easier to group languages based on a dynamic versus static scale. Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, Tcl, most shells, and Smalltalk allow run-time code evaluation, late binding, and rather less compile-time type checking. They also tend to prefer a unified compile-and-run step.

That's still not perfect set, but it's more accurate than "programming" versus "scripting".

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[aled]

But Smalltalk was never called a scripting language.
And scripting is programming, though not every program is script. Or is it? I need some very good definitions here.
Arghh! If only we used our programming talents for GW-BASIC nothing of this would had happened!

Re:ESR belittles Perl and Python

[chromatic]

I put Smalltalk in there for exactly that reason. It's not clear why it wouldn't be considered a scripting language by many popular definitions of the term.

Personally, I don't worry about it much. It's pretty easy to find the language bigots and then to ignore them.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun could try to explain their reasoning, tell everyone about the SCSL, show all the contributions to Open Source they've made, and they'd still get skewered.

Of course they would! None of that has any bearing on the issue at hand! Take Linus Torvalds, as he has a pretty good reputation. If somebody criticised a function he put in the Linux kernel, and he responded with "hey, I do a lot for this community, who the hell are you?" instead of actually responding to the criticism, he'd be flamed out of existence. The same thing is happening here.

Pretty poor spin-ster

[mao che minh]

1. "...ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.'

Phipps responded that Java is not a scripting language, so it is meaningless to make such a comparison."

It is meaningful if Python and Perl, scripting langauge or not, is being chosen instead of Java.

2. "IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks. [Raymond] isn't well informed and is ignoring most of the stuff that Sun is doing. He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers. He's very selective about what he wants to write about."

He bashes IBM for being a system company, and then points out two examples of how his own company leverages Linux to sell it's systems (Java Desktop only comes on Sun machines, support is limited for Java Enterprise running on Linux unless you buy one of Sun's systems).

For a "Chief Whatever" of a major corporation, he sure does suck at spinning the truth. These guys are usually pretty good at that kind of thing.

Sun is doing their best

[AlXtreme]

When a few months ago we found out Sun had distributed tons of JDS evaluation cd's which use Morphix in combination with SuSE, our small community was quite stunned: nowhere did they mention us, or contact us about using our project on such a large scale. We hadn't anticipated it at all.

After a few days in which we were quite alarmed, Sun's technical director sent me an email to apologize and said he would fix the matter. Within no time, we got reports of being mentioned on the back of the cd covers and their website, and they sent us an evaluation cd. Our project was even mentioned in an article about JDS in the Guardian. There hasn't been much contact since, but it's good to see how quick they react.

Frankly, I didn't even think they gave a damn, but it seems that despite their size they are trying to do The Right Thing(tm). It's a pity ESR had to open his mouth like he did. They are willing to listen, but at least say something intelligent...

Re:Sun is doing their best

[puto]

Agreed,

I work for a small company(30 people) and we are an all java shop. We have several packages that we sell and support about 14000 customers. Good business for us.

Sun is our customer. And I have gotten friendly with PR and engineering. And they are making a great effort to change image and communicated with their users. And everyone I have been in contact with is extremely nice.

So when we counsel sun on our pure Java product, how to make it run well, etc, they listen. No hassles.

And my communication with them puts me on the periphery of their relationship with their users. They use our stuff to survey, communicate, and keep people happy.

Sure sometimes they are pain in the ass. But honestly out of all the biggies I consult for(Thawte,Verisign, Rackspace, HP) sun has been the coolest.

Puto

Re:Sun is doing their best

[meadowsp]

So what, you acknowledge every developer who originally wrote any part of what constitutes Morphix when you distribute it?

No?

Didn't think so.

He nailed 'em

[Cosmo]

Wow. It's nice to see somebody finally calling ESR like he is.

ESR does more harm than good, IMO.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun Micro has a long-standing reputation of dishing out the flames. They continually talk smack about Microsoft and IBM and don't even pretend to be professional about it.

If some prominent NetKook like Raymond comes after them some halfwit crap , they will reply in kind, just as they would respond to Microsoft. Expecting Sun to put on the kiddie gloves is ridiculous.

Re:Begging the question - is Sun really our friend

[JohnnyCannuk]

"In the past few months we've seen quite a bit
of waffling from Sun regarding Linux. They seem to go from lukewarm to cold on a regular basis."

Oh so the release of the first major Linux Desktop OS (the Sun Java Desktop System) in the last few months is "waffling"? Release of the entire Sun ONE stack (the Java Enterprise System) on Suse Linux for the Opteron is "lukewarm"?

Come on.

"Does anybody know exactly what Sun got when they gave millions of dollars to SCO?"

About a million dollars worth of SCO employees and booty when SCO loses and gets carved up during the counter suits it will face. Or perhaps they did it just to piss off IBM. You know, they may both push Java but they don't really like each other all that much.

Sun has help push Linux, especially on the desktop, recently. Irregardless of the SCO shit.

And none of this has anything to do with Java. You want the Java source? Go to Sun, sign the SCSL and read it. Or Read the freely available Spec and write your own implementation. Or Join the JCP and have a say...

Just because it's not GPL doesn't mean it's not free - free to use, free to develop to, free to redistribute with your programs is still free.

Free Java Developer's Perspective

[tromey]

Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time
implementing Free Java:

It would be convenient if Sun released all their
source under a free or open license. That would
be a huge help, it would really speed things along.

It isn't really necessary, however. The necessary
parts are much smaller.

First, access to the TCK would be very useful.
To my knowledge no free implementation has ever
been run against the TCK; Sun has not ever made
it available under terms acceptable to free
software developers. (E.g., requiring a Sun
license or otherwise making us give up our
"cleanroom" status is not acceptable.)

Second, allowing Free Java developers to participate
in the JCP would be nice. My understanding
is that there are still legal barriers making
this inadvisable.

Finally, it would be useful if Sun recognized
the reality of free software development,
namely that we are likely to have to subset
the platform temporarily, simply due to lack
of manpower to implement the whole thing in
one big release.

Generally speaking, Sun has done a pretty good
job of stewardship, and things move closer to
openness every year. There's just a few short
steps remaining.

Re:Free Java Developer's Perspective

[mlk]

Second, allowing Free Java developers to participate
in the JCP would be nice. My understanding
is that there are still legal barriers making
this inadvisable
I'm intrested by what you mean by this. I thought the rules were changed once Sun released that Apache were excluded?

How about neither?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wtf makes you think he is a great programmer or has great ideas? He is a loudmouth primadonna. All he wants is for everyone to know what an 3j33t hacker he is and how he is the lord of open source and we would all be living in the dark ages of closed source if it weren't for him. All he has ever done is write a completely incorrect and rediculous book that people who are out of touch with reality and don't understand software development thought was insightful.

He needs to either shutup, or stop associating himself with the open source world. Stupid shit like this seriously damages the reputation of the people he somehow believes he represents.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Insulting people can be a good response: witness the upcoming elections if you're in doubt about how well it works.

More then practicality though, its' the right answer to call a person or their arguments what they are (or at least what you see them as.) Not everyone can follow and investigate every subject, and the plain spoken insults of trusted people are a guide we can use to understand the issues.

With friends like these...

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends

Any friend (and financial backer) of SCO is no friend of F/OSS.

Some past notable utterances from our friends:

Schwartz said:

Schwartz, however, sees the fad of Linux wearing off in big businesses.

"There will be a transition back to Solaris," he said

and let's not forget Scott:

The "fad will wear off, and big business will come back to solaris".

Sun, friends till the end?

Everybody else should wake up and smell the java

no, actually they did buy a worthless license...

[rbird76]

According to a cnet article, Sun said that they had purchased Unix IP from SCO a long time before and that it was comprehensive (search on Google for Sun and SCO and licensing and it should come up). Sun didn't need the SCOsource license for that - they already had it. So, yes, the SCOsource licensing initiative (for which MS and Sun alone paid) is worthless (you can't sue end users for using IP they obtained in good faith but which was not the seller's to sell).

My initial question (why did Sun pay for an SCOsource licence?) is still valid, because Sun didn't buy the SCOsource license for the drivers.

Java: Failure or Crime?

[Anonymous Coward]

written by ncm, at http://advogato.org/article/752.html

Many languages have failed honorably -- Eiffel, Dylan, Oberon, Icon, CLP(R), C+@, Oak, PL/1, Bliss, Algol-68, Pascal -- some more honorably, some less, but far too many to list, or indeed to count. Others struggle vainly along, confined forever to subsidized niches -- Erlang, Common LISP, REXX, Objective-C, Delphi, Ada. Only a handful of languages sustain a vigorous population of programmers using them, industrially, for their original purpose; we need not list them.

Java survived teething only by dint of billions of dollars of promotion. It was taken up most enthusiastically by hacks living in fear of losing their jobs to other hacks more experienced on Microsoft environments. Every promise made in its infancy has proved a lie. Designed and implemented in such frantic haste that a semblance of quality was the first criterion jettisoned, it could not but grow into such a monstrosity as we face today. Today its uses in applications where it was, supposedly, intended -- cellphones, browsers, rings -- amount to little more than nasty, brutish parodies.

It is no crime for a language to fail. What is a crime is for its failure to blight the careers of the myriad young, impressionable, and naive who fell for its blandishments. What is a crime is the forests felled, pulped, and printed upon, only to be discarded unread and obsolete. What is a crime is the thousands of good ideas, and the companies formed to build them, stabbed in the back by an inadequate implementation language. What is a crime is the gigawatt-hours of energy dissipated operating wasteful JVMs on huge servers performing jobs that a hamster could do (and does) on its bathroom break.

Java is far more than a failure, far more than an annoyance, far more than the laughingstock of many industries, far more even than the evil sire of C#. It is a bona fide crime against humanity. Capital punishment would be too good for it; that is to say, it does not deserve execution.

Only one fate can be ignominious enough to expiate Java's wrongs. Java must be consigned to use as an undergraduate teaching language.

Re:Begging the question - is Sun really our friend

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Sun didn't invest that money in SCO, they bought a license agreement. This is money that, in this case, is basically an outright gift. It gets them nothing if/when SCO is liquidated.

Notice how he dodged the SCO tie in

[molog]

Raymond's first line of attack was to dispute whether CEO Scott McNealy's claim that 'the open-source model is our friend,' has any substance when at the same time Sun is filling the coffers of Linux litigator SCO through licensing.

'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

'In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley [University of California]. We understand Open Source better than anyone else. IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks. [Raymond] isn't well informed and is ignoring most of the stuff that Sun is doing. He completely ignores things like the Java Desktop, the Java Enterprise System running on Linux in its new servers. He's very selective about what he wants to write about.

He completely avoided the issue with their funding of SCO. Sun might have given Star Office to the OSS community, but they are not a friend of open source. Being one of the only 2 large corporations which where solely responsible for keeping SCO funded in its assault on Linux makes them suspect. Add to that, Linux is hitting Solaris sales now, they are even more suspect. I trust Sun about as far as I can throw them. I would like to know how they have contributed more then IBM though.

Molog

I'll say it.

[juuri]

ESR is the Bill Gates of the open source movement.

Oh, Bill's lustful desire was money, more money than he could ever do anything with. ESR on the other hand, under the guise of doing things for a movement, lusts for popularity and acclaim. He is a talented program no doubt but he has the internal rewards system of a 12 year old boy.

Please note how everything ESR works on or pontificates about is sure to have his STAMP all over it, contrast that with the way Linus works, or Hubbard, or the thousands of people who contribute to open source who don't do it for glory.

Difference between spec and source code

[czei]

All the arguments I've read in favor of having Sun make Java "open source" never mention the difference between a specification and an implementation. As a former Sun employee, I can tell you the corporate strategy was to make all specifications public, and allow integration and competition by having each competitor do a separate implementation. This worked well with networking standards, but has run afoul of the open source crowd.

If Java was defined by its source rather than the specification MS or any other company would put out their own versions, and cross-platform compatibility would be destroyed in an instant. As it is anyone is free to do their own implementation of Java and open source it. Why not ask IBM to open source their JVM?

Re:Difference between spec and source code

[mlk]

I think you can get three Open Source JVMs (GCJ, Kaffe, some .NET thingie that makes Java classes look like .NET classes). The only really problems are the lack of free TCK for free implementations (letting GCJ actually releasing something called "Java"), and the masive undertaking that reimplementing the JFC is.

Re:Difference between spec and source code

[puto]

Agreed,

As a guy who works for an all Java shop we view it a sad day for use when everyone starts making their own JVMS. Because we only officially support Suns. IBM has a good one. And I know of some russian and japanese custome ones that kick ass.

We start seeing more than one JVM and it will be like the customers who ask as why we dont have RPMS, just tar balls.

Example
customer"Your software doesnt work"
me"are you using the Latest Sun JVM"
then" No I am using the Gentodrakefedora JVM"
me"Sorry we only support Suns"
them"you need to make it work with mine"

Fuck it, let sun do the JVMS, we write to one and to one only.

Puto

Re:Difference between spec and source code

[Anonymous Coward]

I strongly believe that all API Specifications from Sun Microsystems could have been released under much more open licensing terms. Sun Microsystems is assuming that if other companies take Java's specifications and put out their own incompatible versions, that cross-platform compatibility would be destroyed but do you really think that people would let that happen? Do you really think that organizations would endorse such behavior by MS or other companies? If anything they would start complaining and then those companies would be forced to be compatible.

A better idea might be for Sun Microsystems to create a certification program for "compatible" implementations so that any company that uses another companies' implementations of Java would with Sun's seal of approval would be comfortable in knowing that implementations are compatible with each other.

Now, another problem with Sun protecting API Specifications is that Sun denies developers the opportunity to create implementations of the specifications in other languages such as Perl, PHP, Python, etc.

"Got Java" has a ring to it!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I like Ross's final paragraph: "There's powerful magic in the Java platform, but we need more powerful resources than Sun alone can muster if this industry is ever to reach its full potential. I hope you'll join me in urging Sun to provide meaningful incentives to rally this industry into action and to create a cooperative industry alliance for Java platform marketing. Just as the dairy industry jointly funds the "Got Milk?" campaign, all of us in the Java industry need to work collectively to promote key messages that lay a foundation for consumer acceptance of Java and for our long term economic success."

Got Java? has a ring to it!!!

Two tongues

[Britz]

(all emphasis mine)

'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community.

Raymond takes McNealy's comments out of context.

That is not correct. Simon Phipps doesn't accuse ESR of taking McNealy'c comments our of context. Phipps only implies that McNealy says different things depending on wether he is talking to one group or the other and ESR should only listen to the things he says to the group he belongs to.

In Hollywood movies the Native Americans accused those people of talking with two tongues, though I have never seen a person with two tongues and I doubt that McNealy has more than one.

Re:Two tongues

[kilgortrout]

I believe that's "forked tongue" not "two tongues". And I always thought that the comparison was to the tongue of a snake which literally do have forked tongues, i.e. they're split at the end.

Re:Two tongues

[Charlotte]

Mod parent up!

I was thinking precisely the same thing. When you want to confront a company about its strategy and position you're not supposed to quote the CEO?

Now, I can agree that a lot of things Scott says don't make any sense at all but that's hardly Eric's fault.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

ah, the old ad hominem attack. Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as ...

MBAs maybe and dismiss them out of hand?

Re:no, actually they did buy a worthless license..

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun didn't need the SCOsource license for that - they already had it.

You apparently didn't read the links I provided, the second of which clearly states that it was for drivers.

Lets try another one. This cnet story clearly states:

Sun's expanded license permits Sun to use some software from Unix System V Release 4 for software components called drivers, which let computers use hard drives, network cards and other devices. Sun needed the software for its version of Solaris that runs on Intel servers, Sun spokesman Brett Smith said.

The license that Sun bought previously was for the IP in the Unix code base then. The new license was for newly developed IP. Old license for old code, new license for new code. That isn't hard to understand.

Your original question has been answered, and it was based on a faulty premise. Now, unless you have real evidence you are either wrong, ready for a tin foil hat, or trolling.

Bottom line: Sun made a business decision and purchased new driver IP to help improve Solaris and make it more useful to its customers.

OS SAT question

[flint]

After that rant, ESR is to Open Source community as:

1. A King is to his subjects
2. Lemming is to the next lemming
3. Howard Dean is to the Democratic party

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

There is no safe sig.

Re:Uh... Riiight.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they'd GPLed the silly thing, we could have more assurances that Java would be interoperable- because any "proprietary" enhancements wouldn't be possible or would get pulled as they'd be infringing.

Nonsense. Microsoft could (did?) write an implementation from scratch. They've got $40,000,000,000 in the bank, so they can afford it. Then you've got the worst of all worlds: a funky implementation that is closed source, and out of Sun's control. With Microsoft having to license from Sun (no doubt for convenience) they were under Sun's license terms, and the damage could be limited.

You are also assuming that, even if it was GPL and Microsoft bought into that (HA!) that somebody would actually fold their changes back into the main code base. Given the hatred for Microsoft I wouldn't hold my breath.

Only those...

[alexborges]

So should the world judge all proprietary software vendors by SCOs activities

Only those who give sco money, how is that for a position....

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

What ESR is doing isn't criticizing. It's called "whining", and there's only so many ways you can respond to that.

Re:It could be better

[Trejkaz]

They don't use Xft because it isn't available on every platform, so it was easier to implement their own antialiasing for fonts.

Re:Be wary of ESR's "analysis". My Email to ESR

[thepseudogenie]

After seeing the first Slashdot story announcing the letter (and reading the letter) I decided to send an email to ol' ESR. Check it out:

I sent:

Eric-

If you really want your letter to be taken seriously by Sun, you must change the section about stock price:

*
But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about. Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked.
*

Do you think Sun will take business advice from somebody that doesn't understand something as fundamental as stock price? I beg you - please change this. Talk about market cap, earnings, whatever - stock price is completely irrelevant. Sun could set their share price at $1000000 tomorrow if they wanted to (well, not tomorrow - the market is closed. :) ).

Just replace the last sentance with:

Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had earnings last quarter. Sun, on the other hand, lost money.

Thanks again for writing this letter - we're all with you.

------

And he replied:

No it isn't irrelevant. Sun cannot "set" a share prise; the market does that, and it reflects investor expectations of future earnings per share.

----

And to that I replied:

Just FYI - a company can set the share price to whatever they want by doing a split or reverse split. I would recommend focusing on the fact that RedHat has been profitable for the past 5 quarters, while Sun has either lost money or broken even for the past 5. Growth might be something to mention as well.

I don't want to get into a whole big thing here; we're on the same side - i agree with you 100%!

Again, thanks for writing the letter - I hope it gets some results!

-----

Didn't get a response to that last one. He's just one of those typical computer guys that talks out of his ass. You know the type - they won't admit that there's something that they don't know. When will those people learn?! Admitting ignorance is the first step to knowledge, and in turn, wisdom.

Hopefully this episode will teach him a thing or two.

Cheers!
ThePseudoGenie

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

I seem to remember that ESR is quite touchy on the subject of communism;-)

Re:Begging the question - is Sun really our friend

[cranos]

first major Linux Desktop OS

By this I assume you are talking about the SUSE distro they are distributing right?

I hate to break it to you but "Desktop" Distros have been out for a while now, this is just another one to add to the list.

Sun is playing games here, trying to keep their fingers in both pies, paying licensing fees to SCO (which Novell are currently waiting for) and releasing OpenOffice and the JDS. Basically they are your average 800 pound fence sitting Gorilla.

Good article...

[Anonymous Coward]

eye lurned too wryte yesturday and eye hayte mycrosoft

ESR...a loose gun

[codefungus]

Ok...well maybe not. But I saw him once in NYC at some LUG function. During the question portion, someone stood up to ask about propriatery software and he flat out refused to even consider her question because it related to closed code.

I thought that was pretty weak, and decided on the spot that I didn't much care for him.

Re:ESR...a loose gun

[Queuetue]

You may be thinging of RMS - I think I recall seeing this video.

I was wrong about the licenses

[rbird76]

In the story "Sun expands license deal with SCO", the story says that Sun bought extra IP from SCO - namely, the drivers you cited. Thus I was wrong in saying otherwise (namely, that the license was worthless, which it wasn't).

However, in the same article, Sun is cited as both having an option to buy SCO stock as a part of their deal and as using the SCO suits to advertise themselves as an alternative to Linux. So while buying the driver licences from SCO may have been a strategic move to improve its own offerings, neither the potential stock buy nor the product placement is consistent with that. Sun is openly funding a company whose only current purpose is to impair Linux (and Open Source) by spreading FUD and lawsuits.

If the bottom line for Sun were improving their own offerings, the SCO stock purchase doesn't make sense. In conjunction with their product placement, however, it makes lots of sense - unfortunately, the picture it paints is of a company whose interests are not congruent with those of Open Source in this case.

Re:I was wrong about the licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because SCO said OBTW you have the option to buy stock if you want at "this" price doesn't
mean that SUN did. If this is a concern for you I would suggest looking for where SUN bought stock.
I highly doubt you will find anything.

Re:I was wrong about the licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

However, in the same article, Sun is cited as both having an option to buy SCO stock as a part of their deal and as using the SCO suits to advertise themselves as an alternative to Linux. So while buying the driver licences from SCO may have been a strategic move to improve its own offerings, neither the potential stock buy nor the product placement is consistent with that. Sun is openly funding a company whose only current purpose is to impair Linux (and Open Source) by spreading FUD and lawsuits.

If the bottom line for Sun were improving their own offerings, the SCO stock purchase doesn't make sense. In conjunction with their product placement, however, it makes lots of sense - unfortunately, the picture it paints is of a company whose interests are not congruent with those of Open Source in this case.

Sun getting stock warrants makes perfect sense for the very reason that you keep overlooking: this was a business deal. Once you start talking multimillion dollar deals between corporations, it is fairly common for deals to include stock, warrants, or other securities as part of the deal. You can see Sun's view here:

Schwartz: We took a license from AT&T initially for $100 million as we didn't own the IP. The license we took also made clear that we had rights equivalent to ownership. When we did the deal with SCO earlier this year we bought a bunch of drivers and when we give money to a company oftentimes we get warrants, which is part of the negotiations. I have warrants in 100 different companies, we have a huge venture portfolio. I can't do anything about the perception that's out there and to be blunt, I don't care as those people aren't going to drive our future - customers are.

For Sun, this would server at least two purposes: First, it could potentially give them what would effectively be a discount on the purchase price of the IP they bought if SCO manages to improve its business and stock price. Second, if SCO fails, it would give Sun the opportunity to take an ownership position via stock so they would have some say in what happens to SCO. I don't think that Sun would want the Unix license agreements coming back to bite them even if the possibility is far fetched. If SCO loses big in court, could IBM be given damages that would destroy SCO? Maybe. Could IBM then gain control of the Unix licenses? Maybe. To me it looks like Sun was conducting smart business.

As to product placement, that sort of things goes on from all sides continuously, including from Linuxland. Linux is free!! Don't pay for licenses again! Don't get trapped in a proprietary solution! Don't use old fashioned tools, you should be using GNU tools! Eveny one of those has a flip side that Linux advocates seldom discuss.

And then there are the migration offers: HP and Dell offer to migrate customers to Linux. IBM offers to help customers migrate from Solaris to AIX, Sun offers to help DEC customers now that HP bought DEC and discontinues the Alphas and Tru64 Unix. Dell trolls against *nix and RISC hardware for a WinTel solution. Sun offers to migrate people to its Linux based Java Desktop. And on and on. I'll also point out that unlike just about anyone else in the industry, Sun does have a point. They have spent over $100 million to get a free and clear license. It does give them a business advantage, and it will matter to some customers.

It is just business as usual.

The GUI implementations for Java are poor.

[Futurepower(R)]

Example: The GUI implementations for Java are poor. That gives Java programs requiring user input a non-native look at the best, and makes them quirky or non-functional sometimes.

1: Bad GUI, 2: Decompilation.

[Futurepower(R)]

Whether you like Java or not depends a lot on whether you try to use a GUI with Java, and whether you mind Decompilation.

This was to be expected

[dtfinch]

Sun has little or nothing to gain from open sourcing Java, except for many thankyous from the open sourcce community. Sun would lose control of its most popular offering. Although Java free of price, they are able to use it to increase sales of their other offerings in various ways. And their tight control of it gives them the option of branching the project and charging for the better version.

Re:It could be better

[willdenniss]

That applies to Swing in particular: no major changes here the last few years.

Please cast your eyes upon the list of new swing features in Java 1.5

Will.

As per usual...

[Chibi Merrow]

I love how every time I talk about RMS I get a Flamebait ranking. :)

Re:Uh... Riiight.

[aled]

But is not Java. MS is happy, Sun has interesting competition and we get more choices. Good for me.

Re:I say yeah!

[willdenniss]

Mind you, I would love to be able to see Sun's sources as much as the next guy

Congratulations, you can

Cheers,

Will.

Re:I say yeah!

[willdenniss]

Don't remember if it has the VM internals or not

It's got the lot

Cheers,

Will.

Sooo..

[agendi]

From the article:

"'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch,' said Phipps. 'To even begin one must first address the error in his world view: He has taken quotes given by Scott McNealy to analysts and attacked them as if they were spoken to the Open Source community."

I don't understand this.. does this mean we are only to listen to statements from Sun that are addressed to us and ignore, or have no right to comment on those that are spoken to other industries?

Thank you Sun for correcting my world view.

Asshat.

Re:Sooo..

[WebMink]

Well, keep in mind that reported speech is not necessarily what the speaker said even if there are quote marks...

I did say something like this - not all as one phrase as implied, though. To summarise, ESR criticises McNealy for saying Sun [...] is less threatened by a zero-revenue model for software than just about anybody out there." but these remarks were not politically-correct speech addressed to open source experts, they were summary comments addressed to analysts who do indeed regard open source (wrongly) as a zero-revenue activity. Taken in that context, McNealy is actually challenging their view, yet ESR treats the comment as cluelessness.

So yes, having regard for the intended audience of comments is important, as is regard for the possibility they may not have been quoted correctly or in context.

S. (probably an asshat but preferring to be treated courteously)

Re:I say yeah!

[aled]

RTFA or some excerpts above: they are no problems with open source implementations of Java, but nobody is doing them (fully).

Re:rings a bell. . .

[photon317]

I'm sorry, but I'm still on ESR's side on this. I've been a longtime supporter of Sun in the commercial world, and a longtime supporter of Linux in the free world. These days however, the free world ahs taken the battle to the commercial world, and the commercial world is starting to lose. I think it's only a matter of "when" and not "if", that we'll see old proprietary non-open-source systems as legacy crap that nobody wants around, and that will include Solaris and Sun's hardware if they don't change their ways fast. They should have realized this and started changing their ways in the late 90's, at this point they have a long road of catchup work to do, if they ever even bother.

If you want specifics - look at price/performance rations on Sparc64 platforms from Sun vs the x86 stuff Linux runs on from major vendors. HP and IBM both offer a pretty robust support and service platform, and highly capable hardware, at a much lower price/perf ratio. Why spend millions on supposedly unbreakable machines and high-end service agreements from sun, when you can just cluster a few Dells together under Linux with 24 hour parts turnaround and forget about it?

The Java Desktop and related initiatives have yet to really materialize for us, so they're hard to evaluate. So far we've seen a demo of a 3d desktop from them recently based on this platform. It looks like a far-enough-along demo that if they tossed it on sourceforge it would take over the world, but instead they've locked it up in their research labs - not even a binary version to download.

Sun could have perhaps revived their sparc servers by going linux on sparc, cutting OS development staff, and reducing the cost to the end user to some degree. Eventually the commodity x86 hardware would win anyways, but it would extend the life of their investment in the sparc world, and provide them with more linux internals knowledge to help them transition to an x86-centric world. Instead, they've barely helped provide enough documentation for the community-sponsored sparc ports of Linux, and they shun the idea of such a beast in their commercial product line.

Re:It could be better

[Anonymous Coward]

So your best arguments for open sourcing Java boil down to maybe getting better fonts for Swing and a concern with what'll happen with Java if Sun folds? How are either of these arguments supposed to be compelling to Sun?

Sun is clearly not planning on folding. And, if it does, nothing stops it from open sourcing Java then. As for fonts? That is a nitpicky non-issue if I've ever heard one.

He most certainly is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Howtos are not documentation. I've never witnessed such idiocy as linux fuckwits who think following cluelessly along what someone else did is documentation.

Re:He most certainly is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh. Following along how someone else did it is following documentation. Moron.

RMS is a spin doctor

[flint]

Just one example of the ways that RMS wields his voice:

I endorse Dennis Kucinich for President of the US. We need an elected president who will support the freedom and interests of all Americans, not just the rich few. He is the only candidate who voted against the PATRIOT act.

It never fails to amaze me that those who claim to protect our liberties stoop to McCarthy-type logical fallacy to get their point across. DK said this with Dean still in the race and last I checked he wasn't a voting member of Congress.

Re:RMS is a spin doctor

[adamy]

If Dean was still in the race...the point would still be true. Dean could not have voted against the PATRIOT act as he was not in congress.

I THink what RMS was getting at is that voting against the Patriot act was a politically brave thing to do, and any member of congress willing to do so is worth supporting. I agree, however, that this is not reason enough on its own to support Kucinich over Dean.

Point's moot, I guess. I'll still take Kerry over Bush for President. Hopefully both Kucinich and Dean will end up with powerful positions on the Kerry Whitehouse. Personally, I'd like to see Dean as either Surgeon General or Secretary of Education. But what do I know.

Re:RMS is a spin doctor

[flint]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You make good points.

As for your assertion that If Dean was still in the race...the point would still be true I respectfully refer you to my original post and DK's own web site for examples such as news release dated November 10 2003.

Re:RMS is a spin doctor

[adamy]

Yeah, I think we should refer to the original as the unPATRIOTic Act.

i'd love to see Kucinich's bill get passed. Bush would never sign it, but maybe it will go before a new President early next year.

This is legislation I can get behind. Thanks for the heads up.

Re:There are reasons why Sun can't open-source Jav

[tiny69]

Ah, and this brings me to MONO, a project which is a tragedy because it is walking into a big trap called "patents".

MONO is a part of Ximian which was bought by Novell. I resently listed to a talk by Novell on Linux. Novell was proud of mentioning and pushing SuSE, Ximian, and MONO. If patents do become an issue, Novell will be involved. This is better than Ximian trying to deal with MS on their own. Novell mentioned that 90% of their products will be running on Linux by March. Novell is putting a lot of effort and their furture behind Linux.

I agree partly

[fozzmeister]

I agree with some parts, the point is they own Java, if they give it away its a great thing, if they don't it neither hurts nor helps. As it is im a reasonably ok java developer who is eye'ing up .Net (like a few other developers I know).

Sun: 'In fact, Sun has contributed more to Open Source than anybody else bar Berkeley [University of California]. We understand Open Source better than anyone else. IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag, but it still behaves like an old-fashioned systems company. Sun is actually taking the risks.'

Me: Erm ok, well they gave us Netbeans under a not-so-good license and OO.o, IBM gave JFS, Eclipse etc, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

Raymond: 'Sun's insistence on continuing tight control of the Java code has damaged Sun's long-term interests by throttling acceptance of the language in the open-source community, ceding the field (and probably the future) to scripting-language competitors like Python and Perl.'

Me: this does demonstrate a massive lack of understanding, Java is not a scripting language or binary its a half and half, however i do remember the difficulty of getting XML into java around 1.2/3, if it was open source it may have been waaay quicker

Sun: 'SUSE has managed to do so without any problems.'

Me: I can't download an ISO of the SUSE CD, SUSE is one of the least OSS friendly distro's that is out. YAST is closed source, is it surprising that they put Java on it. Infact SUSE is all around pretty horrible, hopefully Novell/Ximian will clean it up a little.

Sun: 'Java is already everywhere.'

Me: yeh .Net has a huge mindshare atm as well tho. I'd dearly love to know what your going to do when parts of the GNOME core are wrote in C#. Opening Java would have saved you this, If Linux/Gnome/Mono becomes the next desktop your going to be in a worse situation that OpenGL Vs DirectX on Windows. I

Sun: 'The question he should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it's on the 'too hard'

Me: Harder than Apache? harder than the Linux Kernel? Java includes huge parts of open source already as it is. I mean come on. Open Sourcing something at its easiest is no harder than stripping out the 3rd party libs and sticking up a tgz, its a long way off perfect but it'd quiet down the masses.

Scratch the last one off the list.

[Anonymous Coward]

ECC is *not* free, and as a result of openssl's lack of backbone, other people have to *remove* the ECC shit when they add openssl to their software. Just because you can see the code doesn't make it free.

SUN is a "friend" to Open Source??? Since when?

[KevinJoubert]

The last time I checked... a friend was defined as someone that does something solely for the benefit of the friend and not the self.

SUN may be have contributed to the open source movement, but its never been as a "friend". More like a reluctant used car salesman trying to make sure they stay included in the purchase process.

Java blows anyway.

My own sort stupid rant..

[msimm]

First, to be on topic ESR need to accept that proprietary software is OK. Its just not his/our thing. But its not the end of the world. Attacking individuals/companies because they don't do what you think is the right thing will not help anything.

As for Sun and Java I'd like to see them make it more ubiquitous. Just having to download and install it is trouble enough add to that their cumbersome website design and you can toss at least 30% of the population right out. Make it idiot friendly. Any technology that isn't easy to use from fit to finish still needs work.

I think java is great, but I think they got so excited about the technology they overlooked the end user at times. Simple mistake, but it will certainly clog up adoption.

Huh?

[Mr. Underbridge]

People like ESR and Linus are praised and recognized as the fathers of OSS, heros among their kind, but as soon as they say something offensive you disown them.

So...instead of deifying these people we reserve judgement to consider what they say on a case-by-case basis? How is this a bad thing? No one's disowning anyone, but saying people shouldn't agree with prominent people...well, I'd hate to live in that regime.

In life, whether personal, corporate, OSS, whatever, when you associate yourself with an organization, your actions reflect that organization to some degree. If ESR had said "these comments are solely my own and do not represent any organization I take part in", I could agree.

That is complete horseshit. So now I associate myself with linux...exactly to what degree do my actions and words represent anything? When anyone says something, unless they are truly an official of an organization, which ESR is not, they are speaking for THEMSELVES.

In other words, while I loosely consider myself a linux fan and member of some "community," ESR does NOT speak for me, nor does Linus, nor do you.

STFU

Charming.

Sun is not a friend of open source

[ajagci]

I'm tired of Sun claiming that they are a friend of open source and getting away with it. Sun broke their promise to have Java standardized by an independent organization twice. Sun's licenses on the Java specifications and their Java implementations are reprehensible: if you only as much as look at them, they have legal claims over your Java-related work. Sun has threatened various open source projects and forced them to agree to Sun's licenses on the specifications. The JCP makes people work for free to benefit mostly Sun. And Sun keeps announcing that open source isn't good enough, that only Sun managed to turn Gnome into something decent, and that commmercial users will be flocking away from Linux to Solaris. Furthermore, technically, Java evolves at a snail's pace.

Sun used to be a decent company and there was much hope initially for Java. But almost a decade later, I think Sun and Java are bad news for open source. As Sun's fortunes decline (and they will because they are technically not very good anymore and way overpriced), they will become vicious and they'll start taking advantage of all the intellectual property they have on Java.

Thank you Phipps

[Sargerion]

Mr. Phipps is absolutly correct. Eric Raymond really needs to take a look at what Sun has already done for the Open Source community before he opens his mouth ever again. He has obviously never seen nor heard of Open Office, The Mozilla Project, GNOME, Crimson, or anything else Sun has helped out with, however major or minor their part.

On this note, there is a very nice site deticated to linking and sort of tracking Open Source projects either driven by Java for Linux or directly contributed to by Sun at SunSource.net. Nice compilation.

"Open source is what happens when a community
collaborates to build software together."

-Simon Phipps
Chief Technology Evangelist
Sun Microsystems

I don't know who to be sarcastic at:

[adrianbaugh]

ESR, for his rather myopic world-view where open source == god and closed source == bad, regardless of context, or Sun, for their unintentionally ironic response - they claim that ESR is so out of touch while still thinking that java is a healthy vibrant technology with an exciting future.

More detailed discussion

[WebMink]

I'm on a tacky dial-up connection so rather than trying to take on everyone's comments I'll just point you to a blog posting that calmly and thoroughly addresses ESRs points. S.

ESR and NetHack

[Black Jack Hyde]

How could you forget his contribution to the most replayable computer game ever?

Phipps is right.

[blair1q]

ESR has always been a self-serving, mendacious, and disconnected.

Now, if Sun ever does EOL Java and free the source, Eric will claim credit for it.

Re:Begging the question - is Sun really our friend

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anybody know exactly what Sun got when they gave millions of dollars to SCO?

YES! They bought software from SCO. I.E. drivers for Solaris X86.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

"show all the contributions to Open Source they've made"

And all the contributions to SCO.

Re:why has nobody created a free java platform?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

"Japhar is the Hungry Programmers' Java VM. It has been built from the ground up without consulting Sun's sources.
Japhar is released under the LGPL, which should make it much more attractive for companies interested in embedding an open source JVM in their proprietary/commercial products."

"Kaffe is a clean room implementation of the Java virtual machine, plus the associated class libraries needed to provide a Java runtime environment. The Kaffe virtual machine is free software, licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License."

"The Classpath project aims to develop a free and portable implementation of the Java API (the classes in the Java package). The Classpath project does not have a complete implementation of the API yet but it is almost complete to version 1.2. Unfortunately, Classpath does not yet run with Kaffe - but we are working on it!"

"The Classpathx project is developing free implementations of all the extention libraries in popular use. This is a large and varied list, from XML processing to voice and image manipulation."

GCJ is a portable, optimizing, ahead-of-time compiler for the Java Programming Language. It can compile: * Java source code directly to native machine code, * Java source code to Java bytecode (class files), * and Java bytecode to native machine code. Compiled applications are linked with the GCJ runtime, libgcj, which provides the core class libraries, a garbage collector, and a bytecode interpreter. libgcj can dynamically load and interpret class files, resulting in mixed compiled/interpreted applications. Most of the APIs specified by "The Java Class Libraries" Second Edition and the "Java 2 Platform supplement" are supported, including collections, networking, reflection, and serialization. AWT is currently unsupported, but work to implement it is in progress.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[AKAImBatman]

They should have realized this and started changing their ways in the late 90's, at this point they have a long road of catchup work to do, if they ever even bother.

People have been saying this forever. Look at where all the other vendors are:

Digital fell early when they tried to get NT to run on their Alpha processors. They ended up having to sell to Compaq.

HP has been reduced to subsidizing the rest of their business by selling printers. They're now making a last ditch effort at the PC market by merging with Compaq.

SGI is watching its market share of Irix dwindle as their failed NT workstations laugh on.

IBM is going Linux, because Linux is COOOOLLLL. Oh, and their mainframe sales are going up, AIX is continuing, and PC sales are pathetic in comparison.

Dell went from a distributor of high quality desktop computers, to a marketeer of substandard server components. Amazingly enough, people keep buying this stuff. (Then wondering why it fails.)

Sounds like a great crowd to join, huh?

If you want specifics - look at price/performance rations on Sparc64 platforms from Sun vs the x86 stuff Linux runs on from major vendors.

Anyone who actually wants to do 24x7 business should be looking at price, performance, and reliability. The last one is non-negotiable. Only well-built Unix boxes excel in this area. PC Servers generally fall on their faces and do a good "I'm not dead yet!" impression.

Why spend millions on supposedly unbreakable machines and high-end service agreements from sun, when you can just cluster a few Dells together under Linux with 24 hour parts turnaround and forget about it?

Because I don't like being woken up at 3 AM? Or maybe because I really hate it when the RAID controller fails and corrupts my production data? (That one seriously hurt.) Or how about when you get a random blue screen that no one can explain? Or when GDM gives up the ghost and your admins can't figure out how to use the command line? Or when a power supply suddenly blows and the backups fail to provide the power?

If I never see another Dell server, it will be too soon. Unfortunately, I have to see the #*#@(@#$ things every day.


Sun could have perhaps revived their sparc servers by going linux on sparc, cutting OS development staff, and reducing the cost to the end user to some degree.

Linux is getting better, but it still self-destructs too much. (Especially the commercially supported distros like RedHat.) Solaris is *rock-solid*, feature rich, portable, and well performing. And no, I *don't* want to recompile my kernel. I've got too many things to do as it is.

Re:It could be better

[Anonymous Coward]

With the 1.4.2 release we provided two new look and feels for Swing: XP and GTK. Rather than taking a break, in 1.5 we're providing two more look and feels: Synth, a skinnable look and feel, and Ocean, a new theme for Metal. Beyond look and feels, we've added printing support to JTable, which makes it trivial to get a beautiful printed copy of a JTable. Lastly, after seven years, we've made jFrame.add equivalent to jFrame.getContentPane().add().


Are you kidding me? is that it?
what a freakin joke - lets just hope some of the myriad of bugs in swing have been fixed.

Re:It could be better

[Anonymous Coward]

If Sun gets into serious financial difficulties, it might stop making the JDK available as a free download. Etc.

That risk would disappear over night if java was free software.

Right, because all free software ever developed is still under active development and still has plenty of volunteers to keep it going. :-)

Actually, though, it will reduce the risk if there is an open source JVM available. As long as there is a sufficient interest level, there is usually activity in maintaining and developing an open source project. But it's not a guarantee.

while (!(closed(Sun.Java)^closed(MS.CSharp)))

[Anonymous Coward]

{
i.implement.strange.language.with.GC("CJovoShorp") ;
} Don't use visitor pattern due to it raises StackOverflowError when the pseudo-list-like of nested objects is middle-big.

open4free

Here's the link to the Suse angle

[sproketboy]

From Suse's web site I guess Eric missed this. :)

Re:Here's the link to the Suse angle

[cb8100]

Isn't SUSE not free (as in beer) anymore, thereby making it different from free (as in beer) Linux distros?

IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag...

[Boltronics]

I'm amazed Simon said that. IBM is the one fighting SCO (when people such as McBride suggested they could simply buy them out).

What did Sun do? Simply fork out the cash. Yeah, that's risky.

Re:IBM is just wrapping itself in the flag...

[WebMink]

The comment was about open source and Java, not about GNU/Linux. IBM's record of starting and maintaining open source projects isn't that great, whereas Sun has a whole lot more history - see SunSource.net for all the details. But I'm sure there are plenty of folk here who will argue with me :-)

By the way, Sun bought the source rights to Unix (and thus became immune to SCO's unethical behaviour, which I believe IBM are rightly resisting) many years ago, long before SCO held them.

S.

Remember the Hacker logo?

[globalar]

Wasn't Raymond the guy who decided what the hacker logo should be? I'm still waiting for the ThinkGeek t-shirts...

"Mene mene tekel upharsin" -- source

[kale77in]

In the full and more illuminating form, from the 'open source' World English Bible (Daniel ch. 5)...

25 This is the writing that was inscribed: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God has numbered your kingdom, and brought it to an end; 27 TEKEL; you are weighed in the balances, and are found wanting. 28 PERES; your kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

In the passage, a hand has appeared and written this message on a wall during a royal feast; hence the origin of the phrase, the writing is on the wall.

Great quote for those big-picture technology meetings. Right up there with Well, I must defer to your greater schiolism on that point.

ESR is right on this one.

[sharph]

I don't always agree with ESR...on a lot of things...

But I have to side with him on this one. Phipps arguement isn't valid at all.

Phipps says Sun is taking risks. WHAT RISKS?

Just because Java Desktop RUNS on linux, does NOT make it open source.

And this just goes to show that they do NOT understand Open Source, as the responce suggests.

ESR wasn't comparing Java to perl/python, but suggesting that we would be limited to those if Sun does not open up Java.

But yeah, the thing that ticks me off the most is that they say they understand Open Source.

Re:ESR is right on this one.

[0x0d0a]

But yeah, the thing that ticks me off the most is that they say they understand Open Source.

Did you read ESR's original letter? It was awful.

Sun understands Open Source a lot better than ESR understands business issues, that's for sure.

Re:It could be better

[willdenniss]

no that isn't all.

Read the whole page - they have done heaps of stuff such as making GUI applications about twice as fast to start. That's a fairly large issue.

The XP and GTK themes are NOT small things either. Now you can (easily) make an app look native on your clients platform and more importently they use the native widgets.

Cheers,

Will.

Re:Be wary of ESR's "analysis". My Email to ESR

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you expect him to take advice from someone who cannot spell sentence correctly? Dirty hippie.

Sun management, ignore stupid letters

[0x0d0a]

Here's *my* open letter to Sun management:

Don't respond to stpuid letters when you dnn't need to do so. The Open Source community will not hold you responsible.

ESR has some name recognition, but you are under absolutely no obligation to respond.

If you wanted to do so, a nice "thanks, we'll take your thoughts into consideration" note would work nicely at tamping the thing down. ESR clearly didn't understand the issues involved, and made quite an ass out of himself with his letter. It would have been quite easy to simply ignore the letter or send back a form letter and let the whole thing die down and be forgotten. Now you've managed to insult him and start a potential flamewar. For Chrissake, use some common sense.

fetchmail vs OpenOffice

[0x0d0a]

Sun gave us OpenOffice.

ESR gave us fetchmail.

Which do you think helped Open Source more?

Phipps academically an engie, not suit

[0x0d0a]

But hey, way to go with your sly anti-businessman attack. Because as everyone knows, MBAs are all simpletons and schoolyard bullies.

Phipps is actually not an MBA -- he's an electrical engineer.

Frankly, I wish that both Phipps and ESR would stop acting like reactinary idiots. It does absolutely nothing but hurt open source. ESR blasted off a ridiculously inaccurate and amaturish letter to Sun, and decided to make it an "open" letter to piss off the maximal number of people. He managed to trade in some Open Source credibility to advance his whim-of-the-day. Phipps, instead of doing the right thing and either ignoring ESR or sending him a form letter, actually responded. Had he just ignored ESR, the whole thing would have died. Now it's alive *again*. Christ. This whole argument is so incredibily stupid.

Just say no

[Chauncy]

It's pretty easy to respond to Sun... Keep your stinkin infantile Java. It makes mental midgets out of formerly promising programmers. I don't even understand why Eric wasted his breath on such a non-topic. Just let Java die folks. We'll all be better off for it. I've personally been slimed by three separate teams of hypester wanna-be Java programming advocates. They're all the same, hype hype hype and no finish their product. Give me old school (C) software developed by competent developers on modern hardware anyday.

RMS

[Anonymous Coward]

...never gave me peanuts.

Raymond is Right

[Anonymous Coward]

Eric can be something of a blowhard at times, but on this he is right on the money. Sun is Java's worst enemy. To this point Java has been almost completely a "Cathedral" development model instead of a the Bazarre.

Not to mention Sun's really weak rubuttal. Nearly every point of rebuttal is a case of Sun setting up a strawman to be knocked down.

If Java is truly already "open source" or as good as open source then why not just formalize it and declare it so under the GPL or whatever close approximate Sun might agree to.

My guess is that Sun sees a Java lock-in as some sort of driver of large Sparc boxen sales. I'm not sure exactly how.

Let's face it, Java has some great things going for it, but Sun is not one of them. James Gosling, yes. Sun, no.

It's sad really. Java has had since 1995 to flourish. That 9 Internet years. 9*7 is 63 in dog-equivalent years. I'm not sure what the multiplier is for Internet applications, but I think its more like 10 or 14. Thats at least 90 equivalent years and what has Java really done?

1. Tried to be a desktop virtual environment. With minor exceptions, a major failure. Nearly every serious Java desktop app has become a vastly bloated anachronism that only runs on IE and Windows. Where did you want to run it? Linux and Netscape? Sorry that's not supported.

So you end up implementing a virtual machine running on a re-implemented GUI (poorly) on top of a new Operating Environment/OS (semi-poorly) on top of the real GUI on top of the Real OS....

Net result: A program that could have been written in a couple hundred K of VB code ends up burning 256MB or more of core and running like a TRS-80 on Windows. Massive lossage.

2. Tried to succeed in the CGI/Servlet environment as a clean and serious web app development environment. Since most web servers have a minimal operating environment, the new environment is somewhat welcome as is the portability. Unfortunately the runtime takes forever to load. Never mind that most of the "serious" enterprise environments that J2EE is targetted for is growing into so-called "web services". Web services are really just MIME-encoded IPC services wrapped in XML wrapped in an enigma (not the crypto machine ). A whole slew of CPU, Memory and other precious resources are being wasted on this fracas. Entire encyclopedias and several PhD theses could be written on the security holes it opens up.

So what we really have is a portable MIME-over-XML enabled IPC environment that could have been implemented in Python, PERL or C++ (easily) and distributed on any modern operating system without the need for a web server at all. In fact, "web services" is a huge misnomer anyway. It's just marketing hype. Web services used to be based on CORBA over HTML, but no longer. Now it's a billion f'ing pages of bloat. Guaranteed to sell lots of CPU, Disk and Memory.

But if you don't wrap all the hype in a bunch of unfamiliar and constantly changing terminology you won't be able to sell more hardware and that is Sun's core business.

After having read this, please don't think that I'm just some sort of Jacobian neo-Luddite. Java is a wonderful *language*. Now if it's supporters could only free it from the quick-sandbox that Sun has built for it, perhaps it could really succeed.

Perhaps, it's the fact that I have perspective. The thought of all those wasted terabytes of RAM and Terahertz of CPU chasing its tail brings a tear to my eye.

To Bill Gates I'm sure it brings tears of Joy.

Maybe it is good that Java is being replaced by Python. Python is arguably a much better OO language in any case. It's certainly more productive.

Mr. Raymond has waxed poetic before on the wonderful features of Python and I find myself in total agreement. Perhaps he doth protest too much?

Missing in action: Swing

[miniver]

Precisely! If you look at the GNU Classpath compatibility reports (GNU Classpath vs: JDK 1.0 JDK 1.1 JDK 1.2 JDK 1.3 JDK 1.4) you'll see that the biggest piece that's missing is Swing, largely because there isn't a specification for Swing.

The other problem is performance -- the OSS JVM's are much slower than the commercial JVMs, but that's really a chicken and egg problem, driven by adoption rates. Few people (comparatively) are using the open JVMs, so there isn't much incentive to improve them ... and until their performance improves (and package coverage improves), there isn't much reason to use them.

Of course, since Eclipse's SWT is open source and doesn't depend upon Swing, I'm hoping to see more Java applications built using SWT, which might bridge the gap and kickstart Java adoption. This is probably the biggest threat to Sun, and the largest potential fork for the Java specification, which is why Sun isn't interested in working with Eclipse.org.

Argue the points not the person

[Ridgelift]

Ad Hominem - Latin meaning "to the man." The act of attacking the person or oppenent rather than debating the issues.

Rather than taking point with ESR, Simon's main point is 'It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch'. Nothing else he says is really a response. So rather than attack ESR's points, he attacks Eric. Ad Hominem

Re:Argue the points not the person

[WebMink]

Once again, I'd ask you to note that the original article on PCPro, while selective reportage, does in fact have a detailed discussion of each of ESR's points. Describing his views as "out of touch" does not seem to me to be ad hominem (the words others have used about me in the discussion here fit that description much better!) - it is just a summary of what I believe is proven by the points made. I understand you may not believe those points prove he's out of touch but I reject the claim that the comment is an ad hominem attack.

S.

He's right

[Anonymous Coward]

No one ever accused ESR of being in touch.

He's a prima donna if there ever was one. I bet he and RMS have a thing for each other. Jesus H. Fucking Christ and John the Fucking Baptist.

Who needs ESR anyway?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who needs ESR? Who has ever needed him for that matter? Does he work on the Linux kernel? Uh.

Or RMS? He just wants his own Linux distro.

Everyone wants what Linus created. Petty people, scummy greedy ass-licking small-time crooks. Linus doesn't need anyone, and he never did. He's been man for the job all along - there you have a true hero. And he's not even American either! But boy is he ever good! People like him don't come along often.

These other bums - throw 'em out.

Publicity seeking whore gets bitchslapped

[Rogerborg]

Providing more fuel for further attention grabbing rants.

Film at 11.

java == perl/python?

[jonnystiph]

I am usually a fan of Eric Raymonds comments, they are in my expierence well founded and thought out. However, since when are perl/python comparable to java. I use perl for sys admin work in place of hideous (IMO) shell scripts, even if Java was free (beer/speech), I could never see myself using it in place of perl. Can someone explain to me where Eric is coming from on this one.

Libraries more important than language!

[KamuSan]

Then again, previous poster was correct when he said that just 'standardizing' the language is not worth much. 80% of Java's functionality comes from it's libraries. Modern programming languages are defined more by their libraries than their syntax and language constructs.

So, if MS standardized C#, good, but you can only do so much with just a language. If the rest is still under MS' control, then yes, you can use the language, but no, you can't expect the same functionality as you'd get from the .Net framework.

And standardized or not, MS is still the only party that can change anything in C#, or the .Net platform, while Sun accepts comments and ideas from a whole community. And initiatives from the community get promoted to a standard part of Java. Look at Log4J, Java's logging is based on that, as is the whole XML-parsing stuff.

The obviuosly talked to RMS, too...

[ksp]

Qoute:

"When we interviewed Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, last month we asked what the most pressing needs are for the GNU operating system (of which Linux is the kernel), he said: 'We need a free complete Java platform.'"

Hehe... GNU OS - currently with a Linux kernel, to be released with Hurd RSN. Perhaps the quote is right on its mark: "[FSF] need a free complete Java platform [for Hurd]" is their most pressing need! :-)

Unsafe code?

[meadowsp]

You are joking surely?

Who on earth is that a good thing?

Out of preportion

[margal]

Simon Phipps has missed the point. ESR acknowledges the contributions Sun have made to the Free and Open Source communities, and appreciate them, but the point ESR was getting at was that those contributions are inconsistent with how they treat the Java platform. Why don't they support the GNU Java Compiler, or Kaffe more than they do? Why don't they release the specification for SWING so all virtual machines can implement it? Why don't they remove the intrusive license which prevents distributions bundling the virtual machines?

That's what ESR was getting at, not the FUD Phipps thinks he was. He should learn not to react on impulse.

To me, Suns licensing policy for the Java platform is self-detrimental. It would do alot for our community, and for Sun if all users of the GNU operating system were to have a capable Java VM installed by default.

Finally, what was that crap about the "too-hard" list. What an insult!?! You may be our friend, but we're having a row!

AOL/TimeWarner/Netscape

[pommiekiwifruit]

Already diluted the brand with Javascript.

Re:rings a bell. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Fallacy: You are assuming that ESR actually wrote valid arguments and criticism.

invalid arguments and criticism are easily discredited without resorting to adhominem attacks.

Simply dismissing the arguments by attacking the author puts the response on the same shakey ground as the original letter.

Re:It could be better

[AstroByte]

So you think it's "fairly easy to create" a Java Virtual Machine because there's a specification? Have you tried to write a JVM from scratch using it? If not, in all politeness, you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

First of all, the VM specification is a specification, not a guide as to how to write a VM. The VM is regarded as a "black box" - as long as a VM behaves from the outside according to the specification, it can be implemented anyway you like. So don't expect to find anything about object models, interpreter design, garbage collection, threading, synchronisation, method tables, compilers or anything else.

The specification is deliberately vague about implementation details to give the implementor flexibility. For example, it is strictly not necessary for a VM to implement garbage collection. Once the heap is full, just abort. Likewise, the native interface is implementation dependent. Don't expect to find anything about the Java Native Interface (JNI) in the spec because it isn't there, nor is reflection.

What this means is that writing a toy VM which minimally obeys the spec may be fairly easy (e.g. runs Hello World). Writing a practical VM which could usefully be used as a replacement for Sun's is a big and very difficult task, involving some of the hardest and most error-prone code you can write (fast locking implementations. etc.). In constrast, the Java libraries are (obviously) written in Java with all the advantages that gives. The major difficulty is the size, and keeping up with Sun. They haven't got to spend days tracking down a subtle GC bug which causes references to get trashed.

Open Specifications

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun Microsystems could make their API Specifications available under some sort of Open License as opposed to the Java codebase itself. Then developers can take things like the Servlet API Specification and develop them in other languages such as Perl, PHP, Python, etc. That way, they don't have to give up the Java codebase. However, for all those of you who have already developed such versions of Java APIs in other languages (such as the Servlet API), I warn you about things like this...

"The Specification is protected by copyright and the information described therein may be protected by one or more U.S. patents, foreign patents, or pending applications. Except as provided under the following license, no part of the Specification may be reproduced in any form by any means without the prior written authorization of Sun Microsystems, Inc. ("Sun") and its licensors, if any. Any use of the Specification and the information described therein will be governed by the terms and conditions of this license and the Export Control Guidelines as set forth in the Terms of Use on Sun's website. By viewing, downloading or otherwise copying the Specification, you agree that you have read, understood, and will comply with all of the terms and conditions set forth herein."

Now, if Sun Microsystems made their API Specifications available under a more Open License and warned users about what parts of the specifications are being patented or patent pending, it would help Open Source developers steer clear of any legal implications. However, perhaps Sun Microsystems is already too far down that path and if Open Source developers were not able to implement patented or patent pending portions of the API Specifications, they may end up being useless anyway. It would defeat the whole purpose.

Companies always want to protect their investments and I guess that's fair to the business world but the rest of the people who really take Open Source to heart will eventually move away piece by piece from proprietary software for many good reasons. It has already started. It's indeed possible that eventually software will be free and businesses will have to change their business models to revolve around services related to software (consulting, distribution, manuals, training, etc.) rather than making money on the software itself.

What the Open Source world needs is better enterprise applications, 24/7 technical support through trusted sources and most of all better tool support. Enterprise users in large organizations will always complain about intuitive tools to get things up and running quickly without having to manually edit a bunch of configuration files etc. Personally I don't mind but the fact is that most people want better tool support before they'll consider particular pieces of Open Source software as potential replacements to their proprietary counterparts in large organizations.

Have fun!

Well

[Anonymous Coward]

On the server it's all fine and dandy. On the client it still sucks, even with the latest Mozilla, even with the latest JVM, etc. I always disable it.

Re:Be wary of ESR's "analysis". My Email to ESR

[edw]

You need to print that out and frame it. I'm amazed by the stubborn, willful ignorance of his reply.

Regards,
Ed

go figure

[Anonymous Coward]

If there wasn't "one mind" out there, ESR wouldn't think that he is leading it. If you read Slashdot a few years ago you'd probably get the idea that Cathedral & Bazaar was some sort of great work of philosophy and truth. It's precisely the rabble on places Slashdot that allowed ESR to believe that he is leading some great movement. Now, of coure, ESR has been exposed as somewhat of an assclown, people on Slashdot can't say enough bad things about him. So it goes.

From a Simpsons episode:

Homer: Oh, I get it. When I'm crushing and killing you, you don't like me. But when can save your life, suddenly I'm Mr. Popular.

Lenny: Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Re:Be wary of ESR's "analysis". My Email to ESR

[mzipay]

ESR's failure to respond to a letter that clearly informs him of an oversight or inaccuracy on his part doesn't surprise me in the least bit.

At one time, I counted myself among his supporters; but after an experience somewhat similar to yours, I came to discover ESR's true nature: bigoted purveyor of propaganda.

I realize it's a bit off-topic, but this was an email I sent to ESR over a year ago:

-------
Just a quick note on an inaccuracy I found in your comments for Halloween VII -
The first bullet point under the Executive Summary states that "Familiarity and favorability for OSS and Linux was high across geographies & audiences. Eighty-one percent (81%) of respondents Worldwide said they were at least 'somewhat' familiar with OSS; 77% of respondents Worldwide said they were at least 'somewhat' familiar with Linux. Worldwide 78% of OSS familiar respondents said they had a favorable impression of OSS; Linux favorability among the Linux familiar was 86%."
In your comments, you remark "{86% Linux favorability in a Microsoft survey!}"
This is incorrect, and by quite a significant margin.
Note (in the Executive Summary) that "Linux favorability *among the Linux familiar* was 86%" (emphasis mine) does NOT mean "86% Linux favorability" as you stated (i.e. your statement implies 86% favorability among all respondents). However, The Linux familiar were reported as 77% worldwide; 86% of _THAT_ 77% identify those who feel favorably about Linux. That works out to 66% among all respondents, which is *quite* lower than your incorrectly stated 86%.
I hate to be a nitpicker, but I feel very strongly about reporting statistical data with accuracy and felt compelled to bring your attention to this miscalculation. I believe that 66% favorability is still impressive, and I would hope to see that measure improve as more people are made aware of Open Source alternatives.
Thanks for your time.
-------

I didn't even get a response. Ever. Even after several follow-up messages. Now, I realize that ESR is a busy guy. He doesn't have time to answer every single email he receives. But I should think that pointing out a statistical inaccuracy of 20% would warrant a response, or at least an acknowledgment.

After giving up on ever getting a response from Mr. Raymond, I was left to conclude that his failure to respond was intentional. His "statistic" on the Halloween VII memo remains uncorrected still.

100% Java Compliant

[Anonymous Coward]

So why no free java? Because it's already free enough for most people.

It's my understanding that one of the reasons you don't see a free implementation of Java is because you need to be able to pass Sun's test suite in order to label your product as 100% Java compliant.

The situation may have changed, but I believe one needed to license this test suite from Sun at a cost of ~ $10,000.

Die Java, Die Die Die

[Earl Shannon]

I hate Java. And by the way. Die Java, Die Die Die.