Slashdot Mirror

And what the average users takes away from that comparison:

"I don't have a widescreen, so I'll take windows."

On top of that, why can I only pick two laptops with Ubuntu on them?

The Vostro v13 / Latitude 13 and the Latitude 2100 laptops' base models come running Ubuntu as well, but it is admittedly slim pickings. No desktops?

On top of that, why can I only pick two laptops with Ubuntu on them?

The Vostro v13 / Latitude 13 and the Latitude 2100 laptops' base models come running Ubuntu as well, but it is admittedly slim pickings. No desktops?

On top of that, why can I only pick two laptops with Ubuntu on them?

The Vostro v13 / Latitude 13 and the Latitude 2100 laptops' base models come running Ubuntu as well, but it is admittedly slim pickings. No desktops?

That is the exact point here. Dell is telling customers which OS they should choose so they are capable to make the choice. Personally I'm a little bit surprised they didn't note the games, but casual people buying a computer don't necessarily know that they need Windows for their apps to work. Dell is just helping these casual users.

The only problem I have with Dell's EU page is that it's been so oversimplified it loses any meaning.

I find it curious that Ubuntu has two bullet points and yet from Dell's page on Ubuntu they have several positive caveats about Ubuntu that don't even get mentioned here. For example:

6) Ubuntu is secure

According to industry reports, Ubuntu is unaffected by the vast majority of viruses and spyware.

Why isn't there a bullet point for using Ubuntu if you just want a machine to browse the internet? Could Dell at least toss Ubuntu a bone and say "Linux currently suffers from less viruses than Windows"?

On top of that, why can I only pick two laptops with Ubuntu on them?

Why do you even have a page for Windows 7 vs Ubuntu when I have to buying one of these two machines in the first place?

Dell is telling customers which OS they should choose so they are capable to make the choice.

Wrong. Dell is telling people not to use Ubuntu. Walk down the street and pick out a hundred random people and ask them if they are interested in programming open source. They don't even say "if you are interested in free open source software" they say "open source programming." Do you think you'd even find one person interested in actually programming open source? That's basically what Dell's "comprehensive" Ubuntu list amounted to.

That is the exact point here. Dell is telling customers which OS they should choose so they are capable to make the choice. Personally I'm a little bit surprised they didn't note the games, but casual people buying a computer don't necessarily know that they need Windows for their apps to work. Dell is just helping these casual users.

The only problem I have with Dell's EU page is that it's been so oversimplified it loses any meaning.

I find it curious that Ubuntu has two bullet points and yet from Dell's page on Ubuntu they have several positive caveats about Ubuntu that don't even get mentioned here. For example:

6) Ubuntu is secure

According to industry reports, Ubuntu is unaffected by the vast majority of viruses and spyware.

Why isn't there a bullet point for using Ubuntu if you just want a machine to browse the internet? Could Dell at least toss Ubuntu a bone and say "Linux currently suffers from less viruses than Windows"?

On top of that, why can I only pick two laptops with Ubuntu on them?

Why do you even have a page for Windows 7 vs Ubuntu when I have to buying one of these two machines in the first place?

Dell is telling customers which OS they should choose so they are capable to make the choice.

Wrong. Dell is telling people not to use Ubuntu. Walk down the street and pick out a hundred random people and ask them if they are interested in programming open source. They don't even say "if you are interested in free open source software" they say "open source programming." Do you think you'd even find one person interested in actually programming open source? That's basically what Dell's "comprehensive" Ubuntu list amounted to.

I agree. People who don't even know what Ubuntu, let alone Linux is in the first place, shouldn't use Linux. Period.

So this whole compare thing is just for the most stupid people. Most stupid people use Windows.

Although when I search for Linux on the Dutch Dell website, The first result I get is the logo Tux, with the text: "Dell | Linux - Life made simple" and when I click on it I get this English website:
http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/alliances/en/linux?c=nl&cs=nlgent1&l=nl&s=gen

But let's face it: People that can actually get to that website first have to search for it and when they do then they already know what it is in the first place. So who cares?

Is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression that Dell did Ubuntu a disservice by showing it's screenshot as a smaller image.

Seriously, check it out:
http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/windows_or_ubuntu?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs

Ubuntu's image is 288x162. Windows is 271x204. A bit narrower, but a lot taller.

It makes Ubuntu look like the smaller "beginner" or "toy" choice, which is wholly inaccurate IMHO.

Their reasons are valid: if you're tied to existing Windows apps then sure, go with Windows. Otherwise though, Without legacy baggage, Ubuntu competes quite nicely against Windows or MacOS. Heck the only thing I even remotely needed from Windows was iTunes. I've got an iPod Touch, and dang it, it's the only way to sync it (Linux apps can copy over files, but I've not found anything to truly keep a music collection/podcasts synced up like iTunes). Even that will be going away though once I upgrade my cell phone to an Android model in a few months, at which point iTunes is getting ditched for Banshee.

I can't remember the exact text I saw on a dell, but here is a link that gives a little more information. http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3518/p/19245866/19385119.aspx

On the laptop I was trying to troubleshoot the universal power adapter would not charge the battery with the laptop off and would halt on boot with a message stating that the battery would not charge because the power supply could not be identified. After hitting F1 the computer would boot but the battery would not charge.

Read the following threads and petition about their stance on upgrading early SSD customers to TRIM:
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19310219.aspx
(one of the most active threads on their forums - and totally ignored by DELL)

http://www.petitiononline.com/dellssd/
(170 signers to date - that's a lot of unhappy users)

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/t/19332633.aspx
(a truly jaw dropping example of DELL's arrogance and ignorance where they try and justify not providing TRIM support to SSD users)

It's hard to fathom that a supposed IT company can blindly ignore the importance of a major feature like SSD Trim to people who ordered early. By definition, SSD buyers are the top end of their customers, so it's not smart to ignore their needs.
I know of several companies (ours included) who took DELL off the supplier list because of this. If you check the petition you'll see Boeing on there too. I doubt any company can afford to lose them as a customer. I'll personally never buy or recommend DELL again after this either. -- Rob

Read the following threads and petition about their stance on upgrading early SSD customers to TRIM:
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19310219.aspx
(one of the most active threads on their forums - and totally ignored by DELL)

http://www.petitiononline.com/dellssd/
(170 signers to date - that's a lot of unhappy users)

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/t/19332633.aspx
(a truly jaw dropping example of DELL's arrogance and ignorance where they try and justify not providing TRIM support to SSD users)

It's hard to fathom that a supposed IT company can blindly ignore the importance of a major feature like SSD Trim to people who ordered early. By definition, SSD buyers are the top end of their customers, so it's not smart to ignore their needs.
I know of several companies (ours included) who took DELL off the supplier list because of this. If you check the petition you'll see Boeing on there too. I doubt any company can afford to lose them as a customer. I'll personally never buy or recommend DELL again after this either. -- Rob

...and sometimes check out their Refurb Site for Previously Ordered New (returned - not refurb) PCs to see if they have exactly what I am looking for.

FYI: no matter what you choose, Dell will send you a used computer if that is what they need to unload. Been through it on 2 laptops I ordered, one was new and files I recovered from other's drive spanned at least 3 months of previous usage. This despite my unchecking Refurb and Scratch/Dent when deciding. The Dell tech told me they're all potential refurbs from Outlet, refused to issue an RMA and flat-out REFUSED to escalate the call to any superior. Good thing I recorded the convo (1-Party State) and it was before they re-worded the site's legalese to what I linked to above, AmEx was not impressed and issued me immediate, full refund for both. I won't be getting any more Dell's in my lifetime.

If you read the full text of the issue, notice the complainant was misusing the equipment: desktops as servers. For those who need a car analogy: AIT was using passenger cars to haul cargo instead of purchasing trucks. Also, AIT stopped paying for product shipped to them even though AIT admits Dell fulfilled their warranty agreement. Looks like AIT needs a good bitch slapping; and, sent back to the boardroom without any catering.

I work in higher ed in the state of Wisconsin. We, of course, have a purchasing contract (a mandatory one no less). Because of this, I've been working with Dell (ordering PCs and doing warranty replacements) for a long time now.

In the past, even just 3 years ago, Dell would bend over backwards for us. We got waived on the fees and got waived through the "exams" for warranty parts replacement certification. We could also could get spare parts on hand for PCs. Lastly, we got huge discounts for the UW System and for personal purchasing. Now, however, our sales rep is forcing us to take these stupid, 2 hour exams for replacing parts. We are, of course, overworked and understaffed and I have no time in my week to sit down and "learn" how to replace RAM or swap a power supply. Yet Dell will not budge. When I questioned our sales rep on this he became irate and downright pissy with me.

But, that point is moot really when one looks at the atrocity that is the DOSD (Dell Online Self Dispatch) that replaced the Warranty Parts Direct site. Before my certs expired I needed to get a new DVD R/W drive. I had to scroll through lists and lists of parts, many of which were printer parts, server parts, plastic bezel pieces, etc...things that had nothing to do with the service tag of a standard desktop system.

Dell has hit bottom. Their customer service is shit, their tech support is horrible, and the issues with the bad caps was pretty much the last straw (it's OK to have bad components; the bad part is how they tried to cover it up). I'm done with Dell. I won't recommend them to anyone now.

I work in computer repair and can tell you this sort of thing is nothing new.

Yep, that is old news. Some years it is impossible to buy a machine from Dell without MS Windows. That's not a new problem, even if MS Vista, MS Vista7, and MS Vista8 make nasty old XP and XP SP2 look less bad by comparison. Selling defective systems has been going on for years with full knowledge of the management. Only occasionally is it possible to get decent desktops or decent servers from them. To Dell's credit, they are making more of an effort with the systems at the moment, but it's still far from 100%.

As countSudoku() posts, Dell's probably going to be extra careful with hardware for the next short while and the quality will improve for at least a while. If it's possible to take advantage of that extra caution and if you were going to purchase soon anyway, it might be possible to score better than usual machines.

I work in computer repair and can tell you this sort of thing is nothing new.

Yep, that is old news. Some years it is impossible to buy a machine from Dell without MS Windows. That's not a new problem, even if MS Vista, MS Vista7, and MS Vista8 make nasty old XP and XP SP2 look less bad by comparison. Selling defective systems has been going on for years with full knowledge of the management. Only occasionally is it possible to get decent desktops or decent servers from them. To Dell's credit, they are making more of an effort with the systems at the moment, but it's still far from 100%.

As countSudoku() posts, Dell's probably going to be extra careful with hardware for the next short while and the quality will improve for at least a while. If it's possible to take advantage of that extra caution and if you were going to purchase soon anyway, it might be possible to score better than usual machines.

That is old news. Some years it is impossible to buy a machine from Dell without MS Windows. That's not a new problem, even if MS Vista, MS Vista7, and MS Vista8 make nasty old XP and XP SP2 look less bad by comparison. Selling defective systems has been going on for years with full knowledge of the management. Only occasionally is it possible to get decent desktops or decent servers from them. To Dell's credit, they are making more of an effort at the moment, but it's still far from 100%.

Or was the article about hardware instead?

That is old news. Some years it is impossible to buy a machine from Dell without MS Windows. That's not a new problem, even if MS Vista, MS Vista7, and MS Vista8 make nasty old XP and XP SP2 look less bad by comparison. Selling defective systems has been going on for years with full knowledge of the management. Only occasionally is it possible to get decent desktops or decent servers from them. To Dell's credit, they are making more of an effort at the moment, but it's still far from 100%.

Or was the article about hardware instead?

Look - another phone http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/notebooks/xpsnb/ct.aspx?refid=xpsnb&s=bsd&cs=04&ref=lthp/(it meets your criteria).

Sometimes you people amaze me.

alright, you are absolutely retarded, I destyoed all of these arguments in another part of this threat against another Mac head. I provided direct links to identical computers from Apple.com and Dell.com, that explicitly show apple to have a pretty constant extra 50% added to their price, for the entire computer.

No, you are absolutely retarded. I did the exact same thing as you did showing Macs were comparable in prices. However when I did it I not only compared Macs to Dells, but to Alienware PCs, HPs, and others. I posted my results several tymes on slashdot. Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo is one place, specifically in this post. That's from more than a year ago. How about now? Let's see...

MacBook Pro 17-inch

• 2.66GHz Intel Core i7
• 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X2GB
• 500GB Serial ATA Drive @ 7200 rpm
• 1920x1200 pixel LED-backlit display

Total price: $2,549.00

Now for a Dell...
The only 17+ inch Dell laptops I see are two, the Vostro 3700s, and FastTrack Elite Vostro 3700s,. What are their configurations? Let's see...

Vostro 3700s,

• Intel® CoreTM i5-430M (2.26GHz base, up to 2.53GHz, 2C/4T, 3MB/L3)
• 3GB DDR3 Shared Dual Channel at 1066MHZ, 2 DIMM
• 320GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 1600 x 900 LED display

Total price, $713.00. While lower cost, it is slower, has less RAM, lower resolution display, and a smaller HDD.

How about the FastTrack Elite Vostro 3700s

• Intel® CoreTM i3-330M (2.13GHz, Dual Core/4 Threads, 3MB L3 Cache).
• 4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR3 at 1066MHZ, 2 DIMM
• 500GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 1600 x 900 LED display

Total price, $994.00. As with the above Dell this one is cheaper but does not meet the Mac's specs. You want a faster CPU and higher resolution display you'll have to get something else.

How about an HP...

G72t series

• Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-540M Dual Core processor (2.53GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) with Turbo Boost up to 3.06GHz
• FREE Upgrade to 4GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
• 640GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 512MB ATI Mobility Radeon(TM) HD 5430 Graphics with 5-in-1 integrated Digital Media Reader and HDMI
• 17.3" diagonal HD+ High-Definition HP LED BrightView Widescreen Display (1600 x 900)

Total price, $1,333.98. The CPU is slower and display resolution lower but the HDD is bigger.

And the dv7tse series

• Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-540M Dual Core processor (2.53GHz, 3MB L3 Cache) with Turbo Boost up to 3.06GHz
• 4GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
• FREE Upgrade to 500GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive with HP ProtectSmart Hard Drive Protection
• 1GB ATI Mobility Radeon(TM) HD 5650 switchable graphics
• 17.3" diagonal HD+ High-Definition HP LED BrightView Widescreen Display (1600 x 900)

Total price, $1,333.98. Again though lower priced, it does not meet the Mac's specs.

The OS itself, doesn't matter much because installing an Apple OS on a non-Apple computer is a dangerous thing, compatibility and stability die instantly.

The OS does matter. After years and

alright, you are absolutely retarded, I destyoed all of these arguments in another part of this threat against another Mac head. I provided direct links to identical computers from Apple.com and Dell.com, that explicitly show apple to have a pretty constant extra 50% added to their price, for the entire computer.

No, you are absolutely retarded. I did the exact same thing as you did showing Macs were comparable in prices. However when I did it I not only compared Macs to Dells, but to Alienware PCs, HPs, and others. I posted my results several tymes on slashdot. Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo is one place, specifically in this post. That's from more than a year ago. How about now? Let's see...

MacBook Pro 17-inch

• 2.66GHz Intel Core i7
• 4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X2GB
• 500GB Serial ATA Drive @ 7200 rpm
• 1920x1200 pixel LED-backlit display

Total price: $2,549.00

Now for a Dell...
The only 17+ inch Dell laptops I see are two, the Vostro 3700s, and FastTrack Elite Vostro 3700s,. What are their configurations? Let's see...

Vostro 3700s,

• Intel® CoreTM i5-430M (2.26GHz base, up to 2.53GHz, 2C/4T, 3MB/L3)
• 3GB DDR3 Shared Dual Channel at 1066MHZ, 2 DIMM
• 320GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 1600 x 900 LED display

Total price, $713.00. While lower cost, it is slower, has less RAM, lower resolution display, and a smaller HDD.

How about the FastTrack Elite Vostro 3700s

• Intel® CoreTM i3-330M (2.13GHz, Dual Core/4 Threads, 3MB L3 Cache).
• 4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR3 at 1066MHZ, 2 DIMM
• 500GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 1600 x 900 LED display

Total price, $994.00. As with the above Dell this one is cheaper but does not meet the Mac's specs. You want a faster CPU and higher resolution display you'll have to get something else.

How about an HP...

G72t series

• Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-540M Dual Core processor (2.53GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) with Turbo Boost up to 3.06GHz
• FREE Upgrade to 4GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
• 640GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
• 512MB ATI Mobility Radeon(TM) HD 5430 Graphics with 5-in-1 integrated Digital Media Reader and HDMI
• 17.3" diagonal HD+ High-Definition HP LED BrightView Widescreen Display (1600 x 900)

Total price, $1,333.98. The CPU is slower and display resolution lower but the HDD is bigger.

And the dv7tse series

• Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-540M Dual Core processor (2.53GHz, 3MB L3 Cache) with Turbo Boost up to 3.06GHz
• 4GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
• FREE Upgrade to 500GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive with HP ProtectSmart Hard Drive Protection
• 1GB ATI Mobility Radeon(TM) HD 5650 switchable graphics
• 17.3" diagonal HD+ High-Definition HP LED BrightView Widescreen Display (1600 x 900)

Total price, $1,333.98. Again though lower priced, it does not meet the Mac's specs.

The OS itself, doesn't matter much because installing an Apple OS on a non-Apple computer is a dangerous thing, compatibility and stability die instantly.

The OS does matter. After years and

Look at the Zino HD. We have three of these at work. The model with 4 gigs or RAM and a Bluray player is around the same price as the vanilla Mini. Apple still seems to have a 20% premium on price, not to mention the price of Apple care.

And the Zino (at best) has a 1.8 GHz CPU, while the mini has at least a 2.4 GHz CPU. And that will be more useful at work than a BluRay player.

Dell also sells the Hybrid for, um, some reason.

Say what you will about Steve Jobs, one of the smartest things he did when he first returned to Apple was slash the product line down to a few simple categories. There's nothing I hate more than trying to compare laptops from Dell or HP. Someone at each of those companies needs to watch this.

Look at the Zino HD. We have three of these at work. The model with 4 gigs or RAM and a Bluray player is around the same price as the vanilla Mini. Apple still seems to have a 20% premium on price, not to mention the price of Apple care.

A Mac Mini sized Dell Zino with HDMI starts at $249.99.

we can debate usability all day, but in the end it is preference

No, it is not. I even named the ISO standard that defines it. It has its own scientific field (HCI), you know, papers, conferences, all of that (been there, done that).

But at least we now quantitatively know that an Apple computer costs more than a dell with the exact same internals.

Oh yes, for one example.

If that's all it takes to convince you, look:

Dell notebook - $1075 vs. Apple MacBook - 815 (ca. $997). And the Dell has a smaller harddrive (no larger one available), no built-in camera, DVD reader not writer, etc.

So, in your own words, at least we now quantitatively know that an Apple computer costs less while having better specs than a dell. ;-)

SeaMicro: 512 Atom processors in 10U rack
Dell PowerEdge R815: 4 Opteron processors, each one up to 12 cores, in 2U rack. In a 10U you can include 5 of these servers, which will bring 4 x 12 x 5 = 240 Opteron cores

More info here

I completely agree, it took the world about 1/2 a decade to catch up after the Amiga died.

Getting my first (very expensive ) Windows PC was the most depressing day of my life.

Now that most technology companies are working on Linux products I sense the computing dark age is coming to an end.

Its not just google, Dell seems to have woken up from the Matrix... (we just need all the rest of them to stop being farmed)
Dell: "Ubuntu is safer than Microsoft® Windows®"

I think you mean PCs, we don't all use Windows you know.

As I understand it, virtually all ready-to-run desktop and laptop PCs sold in the United States that aren't Macs still come with Windows, not Linux. There is a difference between ready-to-run "PCs" and ready-to-run "Windows machines", as seen for example on Dell Ubuntu, but the difference is a rounding error compared to the total sales of ready-to-run PCs.

Yes, 2-3x is an exaggeration in computers, but not in portable media players.

It's still an outrageous exaggeration. Apple's cost/revenue breakdown for the iPhone/iPod lines shows a gross margin of not more than 50%. In order for them to be priced at "double" the competition, the average gross margin on those products would have to be less than 1%. That is not the case.

No. The average I took of 20% is for the personal computer hardware industry, taken directly from Yahoo Finance. Dell's 17%, which I quoted, is only slightly below industry average, while HPQ's 23% is slightly above industry average.

Those are corporate financials, not hardware sales. Yahoo Finance figures aren't what's important--you have to compare the SEC filings. Apple's reported margins are about 40% for Mac, 30% for media, and 50% for iPod/iPhone--for an average of 41% corporate (but software sales and xServes and iPads and accessories all stand at different levels). HP's margin includes all the businesses they participate in, not just consumer PC hardware. Dell's margins include all of their businesses. Your scope of comparison is invalid.

And again, even the wrong numbers and a made-up average, the difference between 20% and 25% is 5%, which helps your argument none whatsoever.

No, I'm saying that Dell doesn't sell any consumer PC's that cost over $1000.

You are out of your flippin' mind.

Starting price: $1099: Studio 17 i5. Starting price $1299: Studio 16. Starting price $1349: Studio 17 i7. Starting price $1099: Studio XPS 9000.

Just three examples taking literally 5 seconds to find, and that's even accounting for their current sale price, as opposed to their list prices, which range from $1400-1600.

Yes, 2-3x is an exaggeration in computers, but not in portable media players.

It's still an outrageous exaggeration. Apple's cost/revenue breakdown for the iPhone/iPod lines shows a gross margin of not more than 50%. In order for them to be priced at "double" the competition, the average gross margin on those products would have to be less than 1%. That is not the case.

No. The average I took of 20% is for the personal computer hardware industry, taken directly from Yahoo Finance. Dell's 17%, which I quoted, is only slightly below industry average, while HPQ's 23% is slightly above industry average.

Those are corporate financials, not hardware sales. Yahoo Finance figures aren't what's important--you have to compare the SEC filings. Apple's reported margins are about 40% for Mac, 30% for media, and 50% for iPod/iPhone--for an average of 41% corporate (but software sales and xServes and iPads and accessories all stand at different levels). HP's margin includes all the businesses they participate in, not just consumer PC hardware. Dell's margins include all of their businesses. Your scope of comparison is invalid.

And again, even the wrong numbers and a made-up average, the difference between 20% and 25% is 5%, which helps your argument none whatsoever.

No, I'm saying that Dell doesn't sell any consumer PC's that cost over $1000.

You are out of your flippin' mind.

Starting price: $1099: Studio 17 i5. Starting price $1299: Studio 16. Starting price $1349: Studio 17 i7. Starting price $1099: Studio XPS 9000.

Just three examples taking literally 5 seconds to find, and that's even accounting for their current sale price, as opposed to their list prices, which range from $1400-1600.

Yes, 2-3x is an exaggeration in computers, but not in portable media players.

It's still an outrageous exaggeration. Apple's cost/revenue breakdown for the iPhone/iPod lines shows a gross margin of not more than 50%. In order for them to be priced at "double" the competition, the average gross margin on those products would have to be less than 1%. That is not the case.

No. The average I took of 20% is for the personal computer hardware industry, taken directly from Yahoo Finance. Dell's 17%, which I quoted, is only slightly below industry average, while HPQ's 23% is slightly above industry average.

Those are corporate financials, not hardware sales. Yahoo Finance figures aren't what's important--you have to compare the SEC filings. Apple's reported margins are about 40% for Mac, 30% for media, and 50% for iPod/iPhone--for an average of 41% corporate (but software sales and xServes and iPads and accessories all stand at different levels). HP's margin includes all the businesses they participate in, not just consumer PC hardware. Dell's margins include all of their businesses. Your scope of comparison is invalid.

And again, even the wrong numbers and a made-up average, the difference between 20% and 25% is 5%, which helps your argument none whatsoever.

No, I'm saying that Dell doesn't sell any consumer PC's that cost over $1000.

You are out of your flippin' mind.

Starting price: $1099: Studio 17 i5. Starting price $1299: Studio 16. Starting price $1349: Studio 17 i7. Starting price $1099: Studio XPS 9000.

Just three examples taking literally 5 seconds to find, and that's even accounting for their current sale price, as opposed to their list prices, which range from $1400-1600.

Where is this? Does Microsoft condone this I wonder, especially considering they no longer support XP?? I see that support for the current builds and service pack level for XP is done, again, as of 04/2009!

You misspelled "2014" (reference: the page you sent me).

Where is this? Does Microsoft condone this I wonder, especially considering they no longer support XP?? I see that support for the current builds and service pack level for XP is done, again, as of 04/2009!

You can buy a Dell Inspiron Mini 10, brand new, today, with XP Pro. We're not talking about Bob's Tires and Laptops. If you can get a Dell with XP, then I'd have to say XP is available to the public. The rest of your invalid reasoning can be similarly dismissed.

There are already tons of Windows tablets with both a digitizer based stylus and multitouch. Apple just cheaped out on their touch screen.

As you can see, every single company is making less money than Apple, except for HP. And I'll bet you that when you look up HP's annual financial reports, it will show they're not making that money in the PC-market.

Forgot the topic of conversation, did we? Here, let me remind you:

Jobs is going to loose the smart phone wars just like he lost the PC wars.

Last time I checked, Apple has both larger revenues and larger profits than any other manufacterer of consumer desktop and laptop computers on the market. I'd be happy to "lose" like that too.

The numbers you quoted are for all sales across all departments. And you apparently realize that with your comment on HP.

Sorry, but you still haven't shown Apple's numbers for their "computer desktop and laptop computers" business. You'd be hard pressed to, seeing as how Apple doesn't release those numbers, only how many units they sold and their total revenue / profits.

I'll still go through some of the numbers you listed, though.

According to HP, during fiscal Q2 2010, it made $10 billion (of their company-wide $30.8 billion) in revenues in its Personal Systems Group (i.e. Desktop/Laptop PCs) with a $465 million operating profit.

According to Apple, during fiscal Q2 2010, they made $13.5 billion in revenues (across the entire company) with a $3.07 billion profit. Did I mention this is across the entire company yet?

Having said that, Apple does have more details in their (PDF) 2009 10-K (Amended) form. According to it, across all of 2009, their total revenue on Macs was $13.9 billion. Which would be an average of $3.5 billion per quarter. However, I don't see where in this document they say how much the Mac division made in profit. Instead, they have the average price of Macs sold (which incidentally is $1,333; down 10% from 2008's $1,478). Side Note: These numbers includes their XServe server line.

According to Dell, during fiscal Q1 2010, their Consumer and Small Business groups made a combined total of $6.7 billion in revenues, with an "operating income" of 330 million (Dell doesn't list profit per department). This is not counting their Large Enterprise or Public (health care?) divisions.
       

http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/home/Laptops/laptop-inspiron-1545/pd.aspx?refid=laptop-inspiron-1545&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&ref=lthp

Not sure why you wouldn't get an Inspiron 1545. Full XP Driver support, runs Ubuntu or Fedora, or heaven forbid, comes with Windows 7.

4GB ram, 2.2Ghz dual core, and a 320GB drive for $500, and the 15.6" screen is a WHITE LED backlight.

The features and prices of that model have been increasing since January 2009, while the price has been the same or lower. Go Dell!

I archive all files and collect lossless live reocrdings. On some days I dl a gig or more and this has been going on for 14 years.

I have built home storage tservers, I have used off the shelf products.

Of eveything I have used/created, the best is the following:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Hard_Drives_External/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=A3082986 I've ordered some from Dell, the price is better than most and they are quick at fulfilling.

The 4TB iomega storcenter...Comes setup with RAID 5, uses all high quality components/drives....Have a TON of features (like Itunes server, media servers, and many other features. Will email you if it detects an issue or reaches any set point which you define...

I have tried other similar devices, like the Western Digital version of this - it is okay, but is more expensive, has less features, is a lot less eloquent of an interface as well...The Iomega has exceeeded my expectations in every way...

Most of all - it just works....perfectly....And to have a 4TB NAS with all of these features, $599 is a good price.

Today not one of the 126 netbooks and laptops - sold under 13 brand names - runs Linux.
Not one of the 75 desktops.
Explain.
Tell me what went wrong.

You typed Walmart into the location bar instead of Dell? Notice how even Dell's Linux offerings cost *more* than the Windows ones. Someone with a lot of cash made some deals to own the netbook market (because they rightly saw that the determining factor was price). Since Walmart is _only_ about price, they dropped the "expensive" options. http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dndoan1&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19

I think you've got a typo in yer second one, but in the first case X is something like an Archos, and in the second Y is a JooJoo, or an Adam, or any one of the many, many tablet computers we've seen over the past decade. What, these are terrible products? You don't say. You can hack an Archos or any number of Intel tablet PCs to run Linux, then you're free as a bird. What people really want is for someone else to do all of the work of creating the perfect development and distribution system for them, so they can reap all of the benefits.

Or any netbook, really; aren't people on slashdot constantly telling me that a netbook replaces an iPad for better value?

Whenever someone complains about the iPhone OS on slashdot, what they're really saying is "Android phones and Linux tablets are so terrible, that I'd rather complain about the fact that the best smartphone/mobile OS out there comes with a bunch of restrictions that only apply to self-righteous and moralistic geeks who spend about 10x as much time complaining as the do developing."

Uh, HP has made or sold several devices that can only run "manufacturer approved applications." Dell as well.

For example: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/category.aspx?c=ca&category_id=6882&cs=cabsdt1&l=en&s=bsd

This doesn't exactly map onto "vote with your wallet". So how are we supposed to 'vote' in a meaningful way.

This is a serious question. Not buying a product and advising anyone who will listen to do the same is one thing, but how exactly does one provide negative feedback to an Free Software project?

In this case you don't use it. As Linux is used by more and more people, companies will want to start pre-loading it on their systems. Thing is, with so many distro's to chose from, companies aren't likely to just choose a Linux distro blindly and hope for the best. They are going to want to chose the Linux distro that it most used. And that is where you 'vote with your wallet'. If people don't like what the distro is doing they will voice it on the offical distro's forums and if ignored will jump to another distro. And which ever distro has the most users is most likely to succeed. So, don't like what the distro is doing? Leave it for another and with more and more doing that, the companies will just follow the crowd.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Nano make a better choice for a low power server chip, with its hardware based encryption support?

As another poster said it isn't some sort of watts limbo, where the only goal is how low can you go, but more importantly how useful those watts are in actual application. The Nano will run existing x86 software, so backwards compatibility is no problem, and with security being in the forefront of everyone's minds these days it seems to me one would get better performance per watt while still being able to efficiently use encryption with the Nano. Seems like a better fit in the low power server role to me.

Considering Dell has a server based on Nano it seems like I'm not the only one to think that, though sadly Dell only sells the Nano based to "select customers" so if you want a Nano server yourself you would probably have to go with the mini server which would probably be just about the right size for a small business or home server setup.

I am well aware of Dell selling a few examples of Ubuntu based computers. And if you go to Dell's mainpage, not knowing they sold Ubuntu, you wouldn't know it, it is hidden. It's there on the site, but joe sixpack wouldn't see it. OK, so say I am joe sixpack, go to their main page, click over to desktops http://www.dell.com/home/desktops. On the side there they list "operating systems". I see windows, vista and 7. So this theoretical purchaser would have to know in advance they even sold Ubuntu to start searching around for it. That isn't support, it's a hidden in the back of the warehouse few examples of some old cruft they got kicking around, it isn't being pushed, not even close to equal billing. And that's the *best* they have in five years effort so far.

  So, this is still *not the same* as a Canonical labeled and supported integrated hardware and software product, that's the point. With Dell labeling, they only have two of those things, and Dell obviously doesn't push it or you would see the choice/option right off the bat when you start shopping on their site. And the whole thread is about Ubuntu becoming something worth buying, for anyone, making them mo' money. They want to sell "the cloud", how about just selling a computer that works and is price competitive as well as "the cloud"? I bet if they tried, it just might work. Heck, start with the cheapest netbooks, maybe ARM based, work up from there. Dip a toe in that water.

That's true, but with the advent of Netbooks and other cheap hardware a number of companies are selling Linux based computers. Walmart sells them on their Web site. I haven't seen many (any?) with Ubuntu though.

Dell has a few options at least. There's some more listed here but no other big names. Trouble is that knowledgeable Linux users will usually check out if a laptop works with Linux and go with some better deal on the hardware rather than the preinstalls. It's a tough crowd to sell to...

Um: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&l=en&cs=19

> The prices on decent panels (H-IPS, specifically) are coming down now, and it's possible to get a really nice 24" display for under $500. 1920x1200, too,

Pretty please with sugar on top: back that up with a link.

No problemo:

HP ZR24w (regular gamut)

For a bit more for a wide gamut monitor:

Dell U2410

There are probably others, but those are the two I know off offhand.

It's not that hard, but you won't find them on a $600 laptop.

Consider for a second that "google" has become a verb, meaning 'to search online'. Then tell me that Google hasn't incredibly overwhelmed the competition so much that it cannot be considered balanced competition. By your very definition, Google is a monopoly, and should be broken up. Granted, I would say that Google is not a monopoly simply because it is the leader, but rather because it uses it enormous cash reserves and image to enter new markets, overtake them, and move on to new markets, in a cycle.

Also, I can easily build a computer, and install Linux on it. Apple conducts anti-competitive practices, and should be slapped for it.

As for examples of where to buy computers with Linux and OSX on them...Well, here goes:

Dell has Ubuntu here

Best Buy sells Apple computers(both in-store and online)

And of course, the Apple Store

Granted, it's only a few, but these are pretty much the main places most people buy computers. Perhaps the reason that Windows is everywhere is because...people prefer it.

... Battery life and portability are the big drawbacks to the PC side of the aisle.

Really? The Dell E6500 compares very nicely to the MBP. Similar price, similar customer group, the same well made design (the latter of course is a matter of subjective taste).

Dell claims 19 hours battery life with the extended cell. That would be 10 hours more than the 9 hours the new 15" MBP have.

http://www.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/notebooks/laptop_latitude_e6500/pd.aspx?refid=laptop_latitude_e6500&cs=555&s=biz

Now, Dell may be exaggerating. But so may Apple.

Apple wants 1800 for their 'base' 15 inch MBP. Dell wants 900. You can get the backlit keyboard, a way higher resolution screen and a quad core processor and still be at ~1100 USD. With the difference you could easily put a (big) SSD in the Dell and it is suddenly an embarrasingly better machine for 80% of the price. Yeah, the Dell lacks the glass touch pad, firewire, and dual integrated graphics. It also weighs more and has lower battery life. I think being substantially more powerful in every dimension more than makes up for that, though.

The same thing is true at every price point. And the truth is, that's Dell's normal price for that machine. If you monitor slickdeals or a similar message board for a week or so you'll probably find a comparable machine for substantially less. Outside of the 'student discount' there are no deals for apple machines. Maybe you wipe your ass with $700, most people don't.