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And if you don't believe him, take it from me. I wore out my spigot bearing -- which is more commonly called the "throw-out bearing" -- doing just that.

Here's some more information about how a clutch works. The article has some good information, in particular, about how the clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing work together.

So don't take the mechanics word for it. Read it for yourself. ;) This is called 'riding the clutch' and it's considered bad.

You're sort of right about their marketing campaign... http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109149.

Googling rick wagoner cadillac escalade 25% shows I wasn't the only one dumbfounded by their numbers (or the very idea of a hybrid douchebag-mobile). They revised their estimates after going through fed testing, apparently. You're right that they stopped saying that when they started the newest campaign.

As for the posting page thing, User 1372069, that's what that link is there for - to look at your past comments. Among other things, it's useful for finding out if the user hurling abuse at you is somebody's sockpuppet.

Start worrying... http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=131741

I think you should be more worried about anti-hybrid nujobs who will completely destroy your car because they think you are "too smug".

I stopped at the point where you said they don't have good financing. No dealerships have good financing. You buy the car and refinance with your bank, at least I do. The last car I bought, the dealership gave me a 7.9% APR with an 800 credit score. I refinanced with my bank for 5.5% APR.

Mod this parent up! The financing departments of car dealerships are high-pressure sales scams. They will lie to you. They will use whatever blemishes you may have on your credit report to demean you and embarrass you. And then, they'll ask you to bend over, take it like a man, and pretend that they're doing you a favor.

It's far better to do your homework, get a loan through your bank, or through an online loan originator, and then once you have that cashier's check in hand -- start shopping for a car. Online, you'll be able to find any kind of car loan terms that appeals to you, and at a much cheaper cost, so don't go to a car dealership because you think no one else will loan you the money, or because you think no one else can offer you such small car payments, that's simply false. You can always get a better price, or smaller payments, for your car loan online at sites that do not sell cars.

Going by the EPA's current nationwide estimate of $3.74/gallon Unleaded, and $4.21/gallon Diesel, a 25/36 MPG Honda Civic will cost you $3.22 to drive 25 miles.

The EPA numbers, however, are a huge point of contention, as previous-generation diesels achieved on average 18% better fuel efficiency in real-world tests than the EPA's synthetic test. Even the EPA admit that their test tends to overestimate the real-world efficiency of hybrids, and underestimate the efficiency of diesels.

An independent agency (ok, they were paid by VW) tested the 2009 TDI to get 38/44 MPG (city/highway) as opposed to the EPA's 29/40 rating. With those numbers in mind, one could expect 25 miles to cost $2.57. Real-world reports put this as a fairly accurate estimate, with others claiming to be able to do 50+mpg on highways.

Prius is still cheaper at $2.03/25mi, although there seem to be wildly divergent reports of what sort of efficiency those vehicles get in the real world (the trip computer is widely recognized to overestimate)

A Mustang GT is a run of the mill piece of crap Ford. They are nice and have excellent performance/dollar, but they aren't anything resembling collectible.

Don't believe me? Note the stellar retention of value:

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/mustang/review.html

You are either delusional, bad at math or both. You would have to spend $1000 per month from the time you turned 16 until you were 100 for it to cost around a million dollars.

Let's see here, per month:
  * Insurance for most people: $100
  * Monthly payment on the car: $500
  * Monthly gas: $200 (based on usage of some people I know)

That's already $800 as an average figure. For some people, insurance will be much higher than that (even higher than $1000!), for others, it may be lower. Some people might buy a new car every 5 years or so (so always paying something for the car), others might use the same car for 30 years (this would make a huge difference, actually).

Now, if you factor in inflation (about 4%), in 50 years, that $800 will be $5700, so, for rough estimation, we can use the average: more than $3000, and that's more than enough to spend $1 mil, if you drive from when you were 20 until you were 70---not a terribly unlikely scenario.

Who's bad at math now?

P.S. To be perfectly honest, I came up with that $1 mil figure by squinting at my parent poster's figure of $20,000 - $30,000 that he would save by not paying for insurance, but it's not too far from the truth.

Of course, the only car I really consider ugly are those box-things. Dunno the name of them, I'm not a car guy, but they look just like large metal rectangles with a spot cut out for the hood/windshield.

Hey, don't hate the xB until you tried driving one. I admit that I don't really like the original, but I actually bought a 2008 model because of the redesign.

Really, it's a better Camry: same engine, similar curb weight, more passenger space, less cost, all without the grandpa-inspired handling of the Camry.

And yes, you will get poor gas mileage if all you do is drive city, but so does the Camry. If you drive mixed like I do, you'll get good mileage (despite the boxy frame). My combined mileage is 27 mpg (and I drive FAST), which is about average for the performance level of the xB. The older model gets even better mileage, but you don't want to try driving a box around on a 1.6l engine.

5 years??? the prius vs say the honda civic doesn't offer any savings if gas were 11 dollars per gallon... People see the price they pay weekly for gas but they fail to see the price they pay monthly for their car, insurance, gas, etc. Play around with the Edmunds True cost to own tool... it factors in gas for 75000 miles, payments for 5 years, insurance, scheduled maintenence, etc.

You will see that a civic costs $36,895 to own and operate for 5 years and a prius costs $41,051. Now take the 48mpg vs the 32mpg multiply it by a price hike per gallon, and you will see how much gas would need to cost per gallon before a prius did anything financial for you besides relocate your gas payment into your car payment.

At market plus 6 dollars per gallon, the prius costs about 500 dollars less to drive 75,000 miles in 5 years. So gas needs to be about 10 bucks a gallon before a prius makes financial sense over a civic... of course a civic isn't gonna help your green street cred like a prius will, and lets be honest a prius first and foremost a political statement. The numbers are much worse for a Camry hybrid vs a plane jane camry in case you wondered.

Some more info on the Volt: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=126606
I am excited to see these type of advance to pull us away from our dependency on oil.

I just did, and I did not find 2-3 months. I found this:

Honda Civic Hybrid, 4.8 years, $2,803 premium over Civic LX;
Mercury Mariner Hybrid, 6.4 years, $4,904 premium over standard Mariner;
Lexus' V-6 powered RX 400h hybrid SUV, 6.4 years, $4,407 premium over conventional V-6
powered RX350;
Saturn Vue Greenline, 7.1 years, $4,770 over Vue XE;
Ford Escape Hybrid, 7.3 years, $4,161 over Escape XLT;
V-6 Lexus GS450h, 7.7 years, $2,722 over V-8 powered GS460

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/05/soaring-gas-prices-shrink-hybrid-payback-period-boost-small-car-sales-and-sink-big-trucks.html
,br> Maybe you could do me a favor and point to a source that says 2 to 3 months?

Granted, I did not take into account the Tax Credits,

As opposed to those environmentally-friendly v8 engines from Toyota or Nissan or even Mercedes? Every car company was in, or trying to get into, the large truck segment. If you want to blame someone, blame the US consumers who kept buying more and more of them.

As opposed to those environmentally-friendly v8 engines from Toyota or Nissan or even Mercedes? Every car company was in, or trying to get into, the large truck segment. If you want to blame someone, blame the US consumers who kept buying more and more of them.

As opposed to those environmentally-friendly v8 engines from Toyota or Nissan or even Mercedes? Every car company was in, or trying to get into, the large truck segment. If you want to blame someone, blame the US consumers who kept buying more and more of them.

> are still left in the 70's building 5 litre v8 guzzlers with solid rear axles

And so is Mercedes. Well not solid axles or leaf springs, but they certainly do put 6.2 litre V8 engines in many of their cars.

Anyway, this article is pretty much pointless, as at best MB will just make all cars E85 compatible or something.

Not really. Sales are down near zero, but people are still driving the damned things.

Total auto sales are down but truck and SUV sales are down more than car sales. According to one article, "Ford, General Motors and Toyota Show 20 Percent Sales Drop in June", the demand for small fuel efficient cars can't be met by manufacturing.

I almost believe that maybe there should be a law against talking on a cellphone without a hands free set while driving.

In many places, there are. But they don't do any good if a) no one knows about them, b) no one is enforcing them, and c) no one bothers to obey them. People speed all the time; so what makes you think an "anti-cellphone" law will be any different?

Unfortunately what you say is true, about the only thing that would improve it is if those who caused accidents were held more liable. Notice also I didn't say anti-cellphone, I specifically stated driving without using a hands free set for the phone. Perhaps I should of said driving with the phone glued to the ear, I've had to avoid too many drivers who were irresponsible in not paying attention to the road.

Falcon

Citysense
"CitySense is attempting to use real time location data from those who download its client software as well as GPS enabled cabs and other "sensors." The goal is a near real time thematic map of activity in the city."

Eg. go and download this application and we'll mash it up with some other data to tell you where people are.

Cool concept but the issue of "data access" is the real killer here. Getting access to "where handsets are" is the real problem....and carriers are stuck in the mud about sharing.

I've seen some really great web services but these all rely in some form of another from opt-in services which suffer from "inertia issues".

There have been some traffic related cell phone projects like http://www.physorg.com/news76178303.html and http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/audio/articles/123531/article.html

but none of these 'subsidised the end user'. So i think there needs to be a new solution the same way there is for Virgin SugarMama Minutes - so the proposal is this, allow your cell phone to be 'tracked' and data from this to be sold to anonymized data services like Citysense in return for a 10% reduction in your cell phone costs.

BUT the carriers cant sell your location data without you signing up for this program. I know that for $10-15 a month discount I dont care if you use my location data, but if you are selling it and I dont get anything from it then I'm pissed.

Just look at what happened with BT and Phorm, they could have got that adopted in like 1 month if they paid people for their data, lol wouldn't have cost more than a few glass beads like wallpapers or mp3 downloads etc. They just chose to take the easy route.

Lol I love this comment

http://www.citysense.com/moreInfo.php
"The company plans to profit primarily from business clients purchasing deeper data from the Macrosense platform; Citysense and all future consumer applications are intended to be strictly icing on the cake".

In other words we got some vc funding and we are going to work out later how to make money.

Cheers,
Dean

P.S. If location apps "float your boat" then you might also like to check out Cityware a bluetooth application I blogged about last year.
http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/cityware-facebook-bluetooth-application.html

I agree. And that's why I sold my Lexus IS300 and bought an Evo.

Excellent passing power and awesome handling. It's the best car/tool/weapon to avoid/escape from SUV drivers who have no regards for other drivers on the road.

I love conspiracy theories as much as the next guy, but there were some very good reasons to eliminate the EV1. Check out this link: http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/239

I know that I'm probably going to be throwing gasoline into a potential flame war here, but your site is hardly authoritative. That article simply lines up a series of straw-man arguments and shoots them down. eg:

5. Rumor: The oil industry is evil because it's making a profit.

Fact: The American economy is based on capitalism. If you're doing business in America you're supposed to make a profit.

Whatever, though. It doesn't matter.

The exciting thing is that they are making a new electric car, so even if there were dubious circumstances around stopping the EV1 (I don't know the details well enough to comment), it is all moot.

I love conspiracy theories as much as the next guy, but there were some very good reasons to eliminate the EV1. Check out this link: http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/239

Look, I knew that, but I simply didn't want to come over as bashing the US. I cannot help it that your government does allow rusty wrecks on the streets.

The issue is not that the standards are lower here; the issue is that the US consumer can't rely much on buying a used car just because it may have passed inspection.

So while your points may be valid where you are, they most certainly aren't here. Which greatly weakens your argument to buying a used car.

So you get new cars from 6000$ to 11000$? Not here, just forget that. I'll elaborate later on that.

Yup: http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/104546/article.html

Oh, my employer won't be ecstatic either. However, you call them, you say what your problem is and I expect them to understand that. As I said in the previous post: if you car starts to break down very regularly, then it's time to get another one.

Depending on employer here, some may or may not understand it. I'm not going to risk my job because there are used cars I could have bought.

Strong health, or you go to work sick which isn't a good idea either.... or of course very bad luck with cars.

Yes, I do have good health. Unlike most American slobs, I take care of myself, and have been fortunate enough to have a good immune system.

And where exactly do I assume that? I have mentioned my Audi 80 in the thread, it has 183000km, I also mentioned my current car, an Audi TT with 145000km. That's 115000miles respectively 90000miles...

So, it is true that when you *buy* a used car, you'd better go for the 3 to 5 year old models where the first owner paid the "new" premium. I have said everywhere in the thread "a younger second hand car".

Your first example was car that had 30,000 miles. I wouldn't even bother with a car that's close to 100,00 miles on it. Been there, done that, no thanks. I'll point out my "new" car now DOES have 100,000 miles on it, but I'm the only owner and I know exactly what's been done to it.

So a brand new Honda Civic costs 13000$? Even assuming 1$=1, I just looked it up: a second hand Honda Civic from 09/2006 with 34000km cost 16000 (Closest match I could find). That's a 1.8l gas engine, so nothing really special. A brand new Honda Civic, base model (being 1.4l gas), costs -according to my national website- 15990. Fun isn't it?

The base Civic I can get in the US is ~$15,000. I can get the fully loaded one for under $20,000.

Of course, this counts for my local market. The US will obviously vary, but I am speaking out of my perspective.

Hmm, you realize your local market is skewed right? The cars you're going to list are imports here. I know someone that bought a BMW IN GERMANY and had it shipped here for less than just buying one here. Anyway..

BMW 320d: 15500 - 2005 model - 60000km (37500miles). Has air conditioning, on-board-computer, leather seats, .... the works.

I could get a brand new one for a little more. I don't think they sell them here without leather, A/C, computers, etc. Also, the 3 series are not reliable. They break down fairly often, and have a high cost of ownership. Finally, the "lowest" BMW you can get here is $30,000, without any frills.

Mercedes C 200CDi: 15.700 - 2004 model - 81000km (50000miles). Also had "the works".

I personally don't care for Mercedes. But again, for that amount of money I can have a new car. Not in the same class perhaps, but close enough.

Audi A4 Quattro 2.5TDi: 15.900 - 2003 model - 76500km (48000miles). Again, "the works" as options.

Again, not reliable. I was originally going to be an Audi until I looked into their reliablity rates. I ruled them out. Again, for ~$6,000 more I got a brand new car. Not "the works" but enough to make me comfortable during any drive.

Any of these cars, new, would cost at

Phoenix is widely accepted by the EV community as being significantly overpriced, thanks to their use of AltairNano batteries. If you want a 5 seater, the similar-stat MiEV is a much more economical option, at $24k.

The main range limiter at this point isn't the batteries themselves; it's the relatively high cost of automotive li-ion batteries due to small-scale production. Five years from now, the same price vehicle will buy you double the range without any battery improvements. Yet the battery improvements do keep lining up in the lab, and we're talking about 2-3 times the energy density from at least five different battery chemistries (just the ones I've tallied up so far, and I've hardly read all of the research coming out). The odds that *none* of them will make it to commercialization seems implausible to say the least. Give it ten years for that, and you're looking at EVs that cost around the same ($25k or so) and have gasoline-equivalent range and are fast charge capable, release far less CO2 and other pollutants, cost around a penny per mile in energy costs (more or less depending on the vehicle and your rates), and cost a small fraction as much in maintenance. Automotive li-ions are rated for 10+ years, and it's not like they suddenly "die" then; in practice, they last the lifespan of the car. Apart from the batteries, the only other moving parts are the drive shaft from the electric motor, the wheels, and occasionally a belt or small cooling fan. 90% of the complexity of the engine and all pollution controls on the vehicle itself disappear. There's generally not even a transmission because electric motors perform well over a wide torque range.

Oh, and yes, we already have the power infrastructure (study commissioned by the DOE) -- everywhere except the pacific northwest.

For a lot more info, read this.

You've got to be kidding me! I am surprised the designers of this vehicle are based in California, because something like this would never work here. With the oversupply of Soccer Mom's behind the wheels of a giant SUV chatting away on their cell phones, this is surely a death trap.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for high MPG cars. I personally am considering the 2009 Jetta TDI which gets a combined 50+ MPG, which is better MPG than most Hybrid vehicles without the huge markup in price and weight for the battery technology. And it has the added bonus of being designed for the Autobahn with 5 star crash ratings and based upon a tried and true technology..

There were cars getting better than that average in the late 70s and all that took was the threat of people refusing to buy gas guzzlers because of the oil shortage.

Right. Now add in anti-lock, power windows/locks/mirrors, heated seats, multizone climate control, airbags for every possible angle, nav systems, multiple TV screens and the electronics to run them, ad infinitum. All that stuff has a weight penalty, which is a big mileage killer.
Now add in more powerful, yet cleaner, engines.

A 1975 Civic weighed in at 1500 lbs. A 2007 Civic DX is 2700 lbs. Almost twice, and it still gets at least similar, if not better, mileage.

I'd rather buy domestic and be allowed to complain when they outsource my job to India. Instead of being the guy driving a Mercedes with a dumbfounded look on his face.

While similar in form and function, electric cars are monumentally different from gasoline

Not at all, particularly if it uses a single electric motor that rotates a single driveshaft (vs. per-wheel hub-mounted electric coils). Visual design, crash survivability, wind resistance, suspension & handling, tire performance, passenger compartment UI & design are all similar.

Not to mention the BUSINESS aspect of being a car manufacturer.

Just think about the supply chain for an assembly line, and how long it took to get that in place and optimized. Does Telsa have hundreds of suppliers they're already working with, who can supply thousands of parts custom-designed for Telsa in a JIT supply chain? Would that be easy to create from scratch?

National marketing, sales platforms, distribution & servicing channels?

These days, even for manufacturers like auto companies, a huge piece of the company is the intangibles: in-place assembled workforce, corporate organization, institutional knowledge, supplier arrangements & supply-chain logistics, intellectual property, customer recognition of the brand. You don't create that from scratch - it takes years if not decades, and a lot of invested capital.

It's much easier for a company such as Tesla to start their production model making cars numbering in the hundreds and ramp up their scale than it is for a huge manufacturer to go from the large scale and start small.

I couldn't disagree with you more. You think it'd be easier for Telsa to start producing 50,000 autos a year than it would be for GM to create a new electric model? I'm not talking about the corporate will to do so, just the technical & business requirements. Knowing there is a large market for your product has no impact on your ability to create a business from scratch to meet that market. You want to grow production from 100 to 10,000 cars a year? Several billion dollars and a decade.

"Business" often gets derided here on Slashdot, and I think that a lot of IT folks have very little idea, and often no respect for, how & why businesses actually work, and why "Managers" are often more important to the success of a company than the people in the trenches who actually make the product.

"Create a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door." Not today. Create a better mousetrap, get regulatory approval, develop a following, invest in scaling your business, market it to that masses, get investors, scale some more, and then the world will realize you exist and maybe want to come into your showroom.

Get better tires.

Is that a Delorean? asked the girl at Dunkin Donuts.
I say, Yea, shame Subaru stopped making them.

Well no I did not say that, but I'll be more witty next time.

This UK firm claims to make a sports car with special ceramical batteries (from US company Altairnano) that have 12 year warranty and they can be fully recharged in 10 minutes from a normal wall socket!(I really have hard time believing that, how many homes can handle such a current flow?) Autonomy about 300 miles, and 0-60mph in 4 seconds. 700 Bhp Car http://www.lightningcarcompany.com/ news article http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleI d=121268 batteries http://www.altairnano.com/

Per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSi deBySidePopUp.jsp?column=1&id=7733, the most efficient 91 Tercel (in terms of highway mpg) was one w/a 4 speed manual, rated at 33/37. It had a curb weight of ~1950 to 2050 lbs. from looking at http://www.edmunds.com/used/1991/toyota/tercel/883 0/specs.html and autos.msn.com along w/a whopping 82 hp.

In comparison, a 2007 Honda Civic is EPA rated 30/40 w/auto, weighs 2690 to 2807 lbs (depending on trim per http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications _full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan&Category=4) and has 140 (!) hp.

So what do we buy if we want to kill babies?

GM already has a transmissioun ready to go. It'll be out in the Tahoe soon, followed by other vehicles. It'll also be used by Chrysler, Mercedes, and BMW -- who chose GM's system over Toyota's. And as a transmission it's infinitely more intelligently designed than Toyota's system. Plus, it works at highway speeds -- hence its name: Two Mode Hybrid. You can check it out here: Two Mode Hybrid, via WIkipedia. Or you can simply check out a review at Edmunds Two Modes Better Than One. Of course, knowing that would require reading something other than Toyota's PR as though they actually made "automobiles" instead of "vehicular appliances". Or perhaps being able to, oh, use Google?

"Tranny fluid" -> http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html (Changing Automatic Transmission Fluid) "tranny problems" -> http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef10 937 (CarSpace Automotive Forums) "Tranny" and "Chicks with dicks" -> uh... forget about it ;-)

Okay, we're arguing over a faulty generalization that is not in any form a fact nor truth, but instead bullshit, and FUD.

"many cars can easily beat a Prius hybrid on fuel economy" is as true as "all geeks wear glasses" or "your momma is fat..." without any scientific numbers to fairly digest against.

Thank you for at least naming one vehicle such as the VW Golf to compare with, but it's only slightly comparable to the Prius in FE, size, and weight.

Briefly, fueleconomy.gov has the Golf at 34MPG for a diesel TDI (or 29.58MPG gasoline) with 638593.389 cubic inches on 3091 lbs over 98.9 inch wheelbase, or 0.01099/0.00956 MPG/lb respectively. 30miles * 30 days @ 34MPG @ $2.96 diesel = $78.

A Prius is 46MPG (16.42MPG more) on gasoline with 690373.25 (51779.861 more cubic inches) on 2890 lbs over a 106.3 inch wheelbase, or 0.01591 MPG/lb. 30 miles * 30 days @ 46MPG @ $3.228 gasoline = $63.

Price between the two is ~$1K MSRP. My scientific conclusion is the Prius is bigger, lighter, and more fuel efficient per pound than the diesel Golf, so a better value. Probably not as fun to drive, however.

Got another "easily beat a Prius hybrid on fuel economy"?

Okay, we're arguing over a faulty generalization that is not in any form a fact nor truth, but instead bullshit, and FUD.

"many cars can easily beat a Prius hybrid on fuel economy" is as true as "all geeks wear glasses" or "your momma is fat..." without any scientific numbers to fairly digest against.

Thank you for at least naming one vehicle such as the VW Golf to compare with, but it's only slightly comparable to the Prius in FE, size, and weight.

Briefly, fueleconomy.gov has the Golf at 34MPG for a diesel TDI (or 29.58MPG gasoline) with 638593.389 cubic inches on 3091 lbs over 98.9 inch wheelbase, or 0.01099/0.00956 MPG/lb respectively. 30miles * 30 days @ 34MPG @ $2.96 diesel = $78.

A Prius is 46MPG (16.42MPG more) on gasoline with 690373.25 (51779.861 more cubic inches) on 2890 lbs over a 106.3 inch wheelbase, or 0.01591 MPG/lb. 30 miles * 30 days @ 46MPG @ $3.228 gasoline = $63.

Price between the two is ~$1K MSRP. My scientific conclusion is the Prius is bigger, lighter, and more fuel efficient per pound than the diesel Golf, so a better value. Probably not as fun to drive, however.

Got another "easily beat a Prius hybrid on fuel economy"?

MSRP for the 2007 Camry is $18,470-$28,020.
MSRP for the 2007 Camry Hybrid is $26,200.

At most, this is less than $8,000. Considering the significant amount of other electronics always included in the Hybrid but optional in the non-hybrid, the difference is much, much less. It's even possible to get a non-hybrid that costs more than the hybrid.

Numbers from: http://www.edmunds.com/new/toyota/index.html

I'm intrigued to imagine what they could do if this ethanol based charge cooling works out. I'm already forced to put 15% ethanol in my Audi V8 (sadly NOT an RS4), living in NYC, but if this works out maybe I can support the farmers AND have a powerful car for the weekends (I commute on the subway).

How much space to kids in a backseat need, anyway?

You obviously don't have kids, or you've long since forgotten how much more than just the kid(s) comes with them when you're in the car. Diaper bags, strollers, carseats (and their respective bases), sports equipment, schoolbags/books, toys, etc. Not to mention anything that YOU might need to bring on the way to school/work (laptop, workout bag, overcoat, briefcase, etc). My Nissan X-Terra has much more space in it. The back seats are a great size and the "trunk" area is huge. I take issue with the fact that you think that SUV's are exclusively a "status symbol". My Nissan is neither expensive nor fancy. It is also surprisingly good on gas compared with your "oh-so-much-better" minivan.

I get pretty tired of listening to people with nothing significant to say just piling on this latest trend of dumping on SUV's and characterizing all of us who own them as uncaring, uneducated people. I'll even give you a little ammo here, NO, minivans are not "cool". OK, you happy? I must be a horrible person to want to own a vehicle that I actually LIKE!! I mean, wow, the nerve of me!! How dare I? People like you never bother to consider that minivans tend to be much more expensive than the smaller SUVs (often significantly so). Not to mention that the gas mileage is often the same and sometimes BETTER in a smaller SUV. (My X-terra gets around 22 mpg, how's your minivan doing? I can guarantee if there's a difference, it's not some monumental number that you're characterizing it to be).

So an SUV is required to get groceries if the store is 7 miles away?

No, again, I never said that. But, when people like you jump on this "let's bash SUV's" bandwagon, you all like to make weird assumptions. And while we're on it, why don't people like you bash people that own things like this or this or this or this ...I could keep going and going here. All of those cars get worse gas mileage than my SUV **GASP** how can that be???

Basically people, shut up about SUV's causing all the problems that you're seeing with our dependence on foreign oil and global warming. It's not as simple as eliminating 1 type of vehicle and we don't really care that you prefer to buy a minivan. Some of us don't like them and can't afford the BIG $$$$ for a good one anyway. I'm not saying everyone should own a Hummer, but geez, lay off if an X-Terra is a better fit for me huh?

How much space to kids in a backseat need, anyway?

You obviously don't have kids, or you've long since forgotten how much more than just the kid(s) comes with them when you're in the car. Diaper bags, strollers, carseats (and their respective bases), sports equipment, schoolbags/books, toys, etc. Not to mention anything that YOU might need to bring on the way to school/work (laptop, workout bag, overcoat, briefcase, etc). My Nissan X-Terra has much more space in it. The back seats are a great size and the "trunk" area is huge. I take issue with the fact that you think that SUV's are exclusively a "status symbol". My Nissan is neither expensive nor fancy. It is also surprisingly good on gas compared with your "oh-so-much-better" minivan.

I get pretty tired of listening to people with nothing significant to say just piling on this latest trend of dumping on SUV's and characterizing all of us who own them as uncaring, uneducated people. I'll even give you a little ammo here, NO, minivans are not "cool". OK, you happy? I must be a horrible person to want to own a vehicle that I actually LIKE!! I mean, wow, the nerve of me!! How dare I? People like you never bother to consider that minivans tend to be much more expensive than the smaller SUVs (often significantly so). Not to mention that the gas mileage is often the same and sometimes BETTER in a smaller SUV. (My X-terra gets around 22 mpg, how's your minivan doing? I can guarantee if there's a difference, it's not some monumental number that you're characterizing it to be).

So an SUV is required to get groceries if the store is 7 miles away?

No, again, I never said that. But, when people like you jump on this "let's bash SUV's" bandwagon, you all like to make weird assumptions. And while we're on it, why don't people like you bash people that own things like this or this or this or this ...I could keep going and going here. All of those cars get worse gas mileage than my SUV **GASP** how can that be???

Basically people, shut up about SUV's causing all the problems that you're seeing with our dependence on foreign oil and global warming. It's not as simple as eliminating 1 type of vehicle and we don't really care that you prefer to buy a minivan. Some of us don't like them and can't afford the BIG $$$$ for a good one anyway. I'm not saying everyone should own a Hummer, but geez, lay off if an X-Terra is a better fit for me huh?

How much space to kids in a backseat need, anyway?

You obviously don't have kids, or you've long since forgotten how much more than just the kid(s) comes with them when you're in the car. Diaper bags, strollers, carseats (and their respective bases), sports equipment, schoolbags/books, toys, etc. Not to mention anything that YOU might need to bring on the way to school/work (laptop, workout bag, overcoat, briefcase, etc). My Nissan X-Terra has much more space in it. The back seats are a great size and the "trunk" area is huge. I take issue with the fact that you think that SUV's are exclusively a "status symbol". My Nissan is neither expensive nor fancy. It is also surprisingly good on gas compared with your "oh-so-much-better" minivan.

I get pretty tired of listening to people with nothing significant to say just piling on this latest trend of dumping on SUV's and characterizing all of us who own them as uncaring, uneducated people. I'll even give you a little ammo here, NO, minivans are not "cool". OK, you happy? I must be a horrible person to want to own a vehicle that I actually LIKE!! I mean, wow, the nerve of me!! How dare I? People like you never bother to consider that minivans tend to be much more expensive than the smaller SUVs (often significantly so). Not to mention that the gas mileage is often the same and sometimes BETTER in a smaller SUV. (My X-terra gets around 22 mpg, how's your minivan doing? I can guarantee if there's a difference, it's not some monumental number that you're characterizing it to be).

So an SUV is required to get groceries if the store is 7 miles away?

No, again, I never said that. But, when people like you jump on this "let's bash SUV's" bandwagon, you all like to make weird assumptions. And while we're on it, why don't people like you bash people that own things like this or this or this or this ...I could keep going and going here. All of those cars get worse gas mileage than my SUV **GASP** how can that be???

Basically people, shut up about SUV's causing all the problems that you're seeing with our dependence on foreign oil and global warming. It's not as simple as eliminating 1 type of vehicle and we don't really care that you prefer to buy a minivan. Some of us don't like them and can't afford the BIG $$$$ for a good one anyway. I'm not saying everyone should own a Hummer, but geez, lay off if an X-Terra is a better fit for me huh?

How much space to kids in a backseat need, anyway?

You obviously don't have kids, or you've long since forgotten how much more than just the kid(s) comes with them when you're in the car. Diaper bags, strollers, carseats (and their respective bases), sports equipment, schoolbags/books, toys, etc. Not to mention anything that YOU might need to bring on the way to school/work (laptop, workout bag, overcoat, briefcase, etc). My Nissan X-Terra has much more space in it. The back seats are a great size and the "trunk" area is huge. I take issue with the fact that you think that SUV's are exclusively a "status symbol". My Nissan is neither expensive nor fancy. It is also surprisingly good on gas compared with your "oh-so-much-better" minivan.

I get pretty tired of listening to people with nothing significant to say just piling on this latest trend of dumping on SUV's and characterizing all of us who own them as uncaring, uneducated people. I'll even give you a little ammo here, NO, minivans are not "cool". OK, you happy? I must be a horrible person to want to own a vehicle that I actually LIKE!! I mean, wow, the nerve of me!! How dare I? People like you never bother to consider that minivans tend to be much more expensive than the smaller SUVs (often significantly so). Not to mention that the gas mileage is often the same and sometimes BETTER in a smaller SUV. (My X-terra gets around 22 mpg, how's your minivan doing? I can guarantee if there's a difference, it's not some monumental number that you're characterizing it to be).

So an SUV is required to get groceries if the store is 7 miles away?

No, again, I never said that. But, when people like you jump on this "let's bash SUV's" bandwagon, you all like to make weird assumptions. And while we're on it, why don't people like you bash people that own things like this or this or this or this ...I could keep going and going here. All of those cars get worse gas mileage than my SUV **GASP** how can that be???

Basically people, shut up about SUV's causing all the problems that you're seeing with our dependence on foreign oil and global warming. It's not as simple as eliminating 1 type of vehicle and we don't really care that you prefer to buy a minivan. Some of us don't like them and can't afford the BIG $$$$ for a good one anyway. I'm not saying everyone should own a Hummer, but geez, lay off if an X-Terra is a better fit for me huh?

How much space to kids in a backseat need, anyway?

You obviously don't have kids, or you've long since forgotten how much more than just the kid(s) comes with them when you're in the car. Diaper bags, strollers, carseats (and their respective bases), sports equipment, schoolbags/books, toys, etc. Not to mention anything that YOU might need to bring on the way to school/work (laptop, workout bag, overcoat, briefcase, etc). My Nissan X-Terra has much more space in it. The back seats are a great size and the "trunk" area is huge. I take issue with the fact that you think that SUV's are exclusively a "status symbol". My Nissan is neither expensive nor fancy. It is also surprisingly good on gas compared with your "oh-so-much-better" minivan.

I get pretty tired of listening to people with nothing significant to say just piling on this latest trend of dumping on SUV's and characterizing all of us who own them as uncaring, uneducated people. I'll even give you a little ammo here, NO, minivans are not "cool". OK, you happy? I must be a horrible person to want to own a vehicle that I actually LIKE!! I mean, wow, the nerve of me!! How dare I? People like you never bother to consider that minivans tend to be much more expensive than the smaller SUVs (often significantly so). Not to mention that the gas mileage is often the same and sometimes BETTER in a smaller SUV. (My X-terra gets around 22 mpg, how's your minivan doing? I can guarantee if there's a difference, it's not some monumental number that you're characterizing it to be).

So an SUV is required to get groceries if the store is 7 miles away?

No, again, I never said that. But, when people like you jump on this "let's bash SUV's" bandwagon, you all like to make weird assumptions. And while we're on it, why don't people like you bash people that own things like this or this or this or this ...I could keep going and going here. All of those cars get worse gas mileage than my SUV **GASP** how can that be???

Basically people, shut up about SUV's causing all the problems that you're seeing with our dependence on foreign oil and global warming. It's not as simple as eliminating 1 type of vehicle and we don't really care that you prefer to buy a minivan. Some of us don't like them and can't afford the BIG $$$$ for a good one anyway. I'm not saying everyone should own a Hummer, but geez, lay off if an X-Terra is a better fit for me huh?

How much space to kids in a backseat need, anyway?

You obviously don't have kids, or you've long since forgotten how much more than just the kid(s) comes with them when you're in the car. Diaper bags, strollers, carseats (and their respective bases), sports equipment, schoolbags/books, toys, etc. Not to mention anything that YOU might need to bring on the way to school/work (laptop, workout bag, overcoat, briefcase, etc). My Nissan X-Terra has much more space in it. The back seats are a great size and the "trunk" area is huge. I take issue with the fact that you think that SUV's are exclusively a "status symbol". My Nissan is neither expensive nor fancy. It is also surprisingly good on gas compared with your "oh-so-much-better" minivan.

I get pretty tired of listening to people with nothing significant to say just piling on this latest trend of dumping on SUV's and characterizing all of us who own them as uncaring, uneducated people. I'll even give you a little ammo here, NO, minivans are not "cool". OK, you happy? I must be a horrible person to want to own a vehicle that I actually LIKE!! I mean, wow, the nerve of me!! How dare I? People like you never bother to consider that minivans tend to be much more expensive than the smaller SUVs (often significantly so). Not to mention that the gas mileage is often the same and sometimes BETTER in a smaller SUV. (My X-terra gets around 22 mpg, how's your minivan doing? I can guarantee if there's a difference, it's not some monumental number that you're characterizing it to be).

So an SUV is required to get groceries if the store is 7 miles away?

No, again, I never said that. But, when people like you jump on this "let's bash SUV's" bandwagon, you all like to make weird assumptions. And while we're on it, why don't people like you bash people that own things like this or this or this or this ...I could keep going and going here. All of those cars get worse gas mileage than my SUV **GASP** how can that be???

Basically people, shut up about SUV's causing all the problems that you're seeing with our dependence on foreign oil and global warming. It's not as simple as eliminating 1 type of vehicle and we don't really care that you prefer to buy a minivan. Some of us don't like them and can't afford the BIG $$$$ for a good one anyway. I'm not saying everyone should own a Hummer, but geez, lay off if an X-Terra is a better fit for me huh?

I thought the Escalade is the Cadillac of hybrid vehicles? ;)

Who Ignored the Facts About the Electric Car?

GM's EV1 -- Who Killed Common Sense?

Edmunds already publishes a calculated TCO: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController

Even if minivans get marginally better mileage than SUVs, they still both have very poor (passenger*miles)/gallon, because they are both usually driven with few passengers. An acura, on the other hand, gets better mileage than either of them, and is also lighter and more meuverable...

Oh, Really?

Even if minivans get marginally better mileage than SUVs, they still both have very poor (passenger*miles)/gallon, because they are both usually driven with few passengers. An acura, on the other hand, gets better mileage than either of them, and is also lighter and more meuverable...

Oh, Really?

Historically there isn't a lot of downtrend in U.S. oil consumption.

OK, but your graph does show a slowing since 1983 compared to before 1972. Granted, that is probably the result of the jump in prices from the formation of the cartel. Anyway, there's no numbers there for post-2000. The Prius entered the US market in 2001. The fact that hybrids now exist and continue to be made is an indication that people do want them.

Prius's no longer have a waiting list now that gas prices are normal.

Because they've increased supply in response to demand, and because it's no longer the only hybrid choice. And gas prices aren't at all "normal", not compared to this time two years ago and barely approximate to one year ago. They reached an all-time high just two summers ago, and are only down right now because of the normal decreased demand in the colder seasons.