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Redesigned, Bulkier Honda Insight to Challenge Prius
In what probably amounts to good news for consumers eyeing a hybrid for their next vehicle purchase, Honda is resurrecting the "Insight" name, this time in the form of a five-seat, Prius-like hatchback. The automaker's announcement included the tantalizing statement that the cost would be "significantly below [that of] hybrids available today," but provided no further details on pricing. Although Honda may have some trouble unseating Toyota's dominance of this particular hybrid market, hopefully the Insight's reintroduction will help to make hybrid cars even more affordable to consumers. This is also welcome news to folks like myself who, after the initial flurry of excitement when the now-retired original Insight was introduced in '99, were left scratching their heads at Honda's hybrid strategy as Toyota picked up their dropped ball and ran with it.
What would manbearpig drive?
The problem is with hybrids is that for most you end up paying more than you would your current car:
If you have your car payed off and spend $70 a week for gas, that is a total of $3640 for an entire year.
On the other hand, if you buy a $25000 hybrid, you might only need to buy $30 of gas a week, but unless your car payments are less than $120 a month, you aren't saving any money by buying a hybrid.
Yes, over time a hybrid is going to save you money, but by the time you get it payed off, there will be a more effective hybrid that costs less.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
By the time they jump through the various hoops and vault the numerous hurdles of the USA market, their design will be outmoded and surpassed by Toyota or the petroleum crisis will have abated and folks will return to driving their SUVs with impunity because after eight years of Bush politics $2.50/gallon isn't that bad.
We need Diesel first. Then maybe double clutched diesel hybrid manuals, I don't know; using a torque converter is a horrible, horrible idea (coupling: 10% efficient. Acceleration: hahahahahahahahaha).
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The original Insight got slightly better gas mileage than the Prius-- for people who don't need the room of the 4-door, it was a nice car. I wonder if the new one will also blow away the Prius mileage?
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Good to know Honda's merger with Satan Corp. is working out for them.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I almost bought one when it first came out but the test-drive was horrible. The rear-view mirror was unusable due to the design of the rear window/hatch. The main support cross-member completely blocked the view splitting the mirror in half. That left you with trying to look over the top of it (and seeing mostly sky) or under it through a darkly tinted 'lower window' which only left a view of the bumper of the car 5 feet behind you.
I am 5'10" tall so completely 'average' by North American standards, but perhaps this car was designed to 'fit' an average Asian.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
Honda should pick up Toyota's all-electric "dropped ball" and run with it. If memory serves, Toyota used to have a 100% electric car and stopped making it. Since ALL of my weekday driving is well within about 50 kilometres of home, I'd kill for one.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Why not just buy a Civic or a Fit?
They're both pretty nice compact cars that get fantastic mileage (~34mpg) without any fancy hybrid stuff.
For a good bit less than a Prius (which you couldn't even buy at the moment if you wanted to), you can get a car that gets better mileage, drives better, and is likely to be considerably more reliable.
On the other end of things, diesels are beginning to make a very big comeback, as virtually all of the traditional downsides to diesel engines have been taken care of. The fact that they get 40+ MPG makes them pretty attractive.
Also, now that the natural gas industry has woken up to the fact that there is a metric shit-ton of money waiting to be made by packaging and selling their product as automotive fuel, I imagine that we'll be seeing quite a few CNV vehicles in the upcoming years.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Honda is resurrecting the "Insight" name, this time in the form of a five-seat, Prius-like hatchback.
So changing in to a 5-seaters allow more people to get out of the car and help when there's a big hill right?
Anything and Everything about the Net
The problem with natural gas is that there's not enough of it. The biggest reason for the rise in electric tariffs in the early part of the 2000's was largely because everyone built natural gas power plants, and, they more or less used up all the natural gas. Now you want to go and build natural gas cars... good luck getting natural gas. Proposed terminals for importing LNG all along the east coast have been killed left and right, there's not enough domestic supply in the lower 48 and the uber pipeline from Alaska faces a storm of environmental protests.
This is my sig.
Beans for dinner anyone?
Great highly efficient turbo-diesels are currently widely available. Think Peugot, VW, etc, even ford. What we need is to go to plug-in hybrids (or full electric) to get the effective consumption below 2 litres/100km. Until then I am sticking with my 5l/100km diesel.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.
are all of these hybrids so ugly? I mean really, can we make a fuel efficient car that a person might look good driving? Let's hope the Volt turns that around!
Good advice, I won't buy a new computer. Mine works just fine! Just like my non-hybrid car that is fully paid off. Maybe I could donate that $500/mo that I would normally spend on car payments to some coral reef project or some other global warming related thing. Then I'd be way ahead of those hybrid guy. Plus donating to a charity gives me a way bigger tax break.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Is there a rule somewhere that says hybrid cars have to be fugly? This one looks much better than the previous insight. But the Prius get zero points for style.
Thanks, but I'll stick with my car that doesn't use 20 pounds of cadmium and which cost only $6000 used.
Also, I'll walk and bike when possible.
And I'm never, ever going to buy a hybrid unless it has a manual transmission.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/honda-insight-overview.html
The 1989 civic got 50mpg highway, better than the Prius.
Yes, we need extra safety items. Yes, those add weight. But all the advances made in improving efficiency have been burned away on power and sportiness and cup holders.
50 Mpg TWENTY years ago.
And no mention of a plug-in aspect.
Very discouraging.
Anyone really think whichever candidate wins this November in the US will have any effect in how 50 years from now energy is produced and consumed throughout the world?
The US is only a small percentage of the world population, and because other countries are becoming more and more industrialized and using more energy, the impact of how the US uses energy is going to be getting smaller and smaller in the future, never mind what the policies of the US government happen to be.
Because the market decisions of the 7 or 8 billion people in the world will just overwhelm whatever US government policy is - if the decisions of 300+ million US residents don't do it first.
Honda's hybrid Civic has the battery panel across the back of the rear seats -- you can't fold the rear seats to put long items through the trunk. It's a great little car, but that crucial lack of utility makes it no-go for the single car owner.
That left the market to the Prius and the Escape/Tribute. The E/T looks like a truck, but check the inside and outside dimensions and you've got a small wagon, just ugly. While the Prius... Is it just me? I don't like this sole Toyota. The interior feels like a 74 Vega. I've been holding off, wanting better options for my next car purchase. Here's hoping Honda's does a fine job with the new Insight.
(Sorry - I tried to work a bad software analogy into this car thread but failed.)
New Honda Insight Hybrid Revealed, Expected $18,500 Price Tag To Make It World's Cheapest
Dont know about you, but I would say thats a bit more detail on pricing, $18500, about the price of a standard/econo car these days.
tm
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I drove a Prius and a Civic Hybrid (should have tried a Camry Hyrbid, but it was probably too expensive) and the result?
The Prius felt like a different kind of car. I test drove a Civic EX-L the day before I did a Hybrid and they were pretty similar.. You know except for the 158 V battery behind the back seat.
I LOVE that the Civic Hybrid looks like a normal freaking Civic.. aka a normal car. For some reason, the Prius felt weird and looked weird :P Maybe it's just not to my tastes, but having a car that is normal, but secretly is a hybrid (unless you read the emblem on the rear of the car) is nice. Toyota's have that weird LCD screen too and maybe I'm just not used to that, it was distracting.. It showed where the flow of power came from in the car - gasoline engine or electric motor.. The Civic hybrid has a bar on the right side of the tachometer which makes it more a normal display, but still watchable without too much distraction..
I like the concept of having a hybrid (yeah even though it's "more expensive" or whatever (the damn Honda dealership in South Calgary tried getting me off buying a hyrbid[!])). Government rebates are a pretty good thing to look into.. ecoAuto is the one for Canada, but only applied to 2006-2008 models. It got me $2000 which put the pricing back to an EX-L instead of an Si. Various provinces and states have their own rebates too.. Not Alberta who needs the Oil industry :P
Here's hoping to see the redesign isn't too bad and you can actually see out of the rear view mirror... And don't get me started on a smart car.. I'm too addicted to a normal shaped car body... (Oh yeah since I didn't mention it.. I bought a Civic Hybrid :P)
Honda already has a car that is more fuel efficient than any car they sell in North America, and would easily out-sell the Prius. But they choose not to sell it in North America.. why?
It's called the Civic CTDi. The Civic is already the most popular car in North America. It is less expensive than the Civic Hybrid, offers a heap more power, and has arguably better combined mileage. In fact, this engine was awarded "International Engine of the Year" in 2005.
I just hope they are really priced lower than current hybrids. Also, they make enough of them to meet demand. These day you can't get Prius in Dallas without paying thousands over MSRP and being put on a waiting list. One Prius I test drove was price at $31k MSRP and they were asking $33k for it! Most of dealers just load their Prius up with everything. If they priced it right, I would consider buying one in next few years.
The EPA changed its fuel economy standards in 2008, and perhaps other times between 1989 and then. The 2007 Prius is rated at 60 mpg city, 51 highway; the 2008, which is really the same car, is rated at 48/45. So you definitely can't compare the 1989 numbers with the 2008.
Are you adequate?
As a former owner of a 91 Honda CRX Si, I loved it! It was sporty, practical, and had good gas mileage (the HF version was more efficient). The Honda Insight was the closest thing to a CRX, but now that's gone too.
I used to be a huge Honda fanboi back then, now I just think their vehicle selection sucks ass.
Now that Dodge Challenger looks fucking awesome with the specs to match! If I were to buy a new car, that would be it.
Life is not for the lazy.
Who needs a hybrid?! Just learn to drive properly. I'm getting 50+ mpg overall in a 1996 Toyota Tercel.
I drove both the insight and then the prius. The insight started with gas motor by default so it made noise when you started unless you did more than 3 starts and stops in a short period. The electrical motor only kicked in at higher speeds (most of the time). The Prius did things the other way around. When you start it's electric only unless you push the pedal to the metal. Because of the way the insight started you never could hear the silence that makes driving the Prius so much fun. That and the insight had poor visibility behind.
Well, VW has double-clutched diesels in the American market right now.
Aside from the unfortunate fact that the TDI's don't pay for themselves for at least a couple years (they cost several grand more than the 2.0T's)...
The last piece to fall into place is all wheel drive, but it won't happen, because that would be stepping on VW's richer brother's toes. I own a very powerful, older AWD Audi, and I can't stand driving FWD or RWD cars with any kind of power...especially in New England winters.
Unfortunately, Audi in its infinite wisdom has been dragging feet on bringing in TDI models, despite a big PR campaign and racing in Le Mans and American Le Mans with the TDI R10. I remember when the R10 started racing ALMS- there were dozens of videos up on Youtube and tons of buzz in the online car enthusiast community.
The first model in the US to see a TDI engine will be the Q7, the huge SUV. It'll be a V10 (yes, V10), similar to what the Toureg was available with for a bit. There's a slight rumor floating around that the A3 will be offered with a 1.8 TDI, but that's at least a year off, and it reportedly won't get very good mileage anyway; even now, the A3 2.0 turbo struggles to get high 20's, pathetic for a car its size.
If they offered the A4 with a TDI and either DSG or a 6-speed manual, they'd probably sell well...
Please help metamoderate.
I could buy a second hand Honda CRX first/second gen and still get comparable gas milage then all the "econo" cars these days. Even with maintnance fees I'd still save $1000's
Personally the only way I'd buy a hybrid/electric car is if it was going for $5K CDN new. But thats just me and your milage may vary.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I own a real 2000 Honda Insight. It is an amazing car. Aluminum bodied two seater made to last.
The low weight and the 990 CC engine with electric assist ensure that I am the one pulling away with spinning wheels at the lights leaving muscle cars in the dust.
This new Insight although it looks like the original one, is a stock standard steel vehicle, high curb weight. Bigger engine on even bigger weight would mean less acceleration, poorer MPG and thanks to the steel body shorter lifespan. I test drove a brand new Honda Civic last week and came away less than impressed. Just another over sized car.
I think the real Insight showed a vision of smaller more nimble cars as frugal with gas as a small motor cycle. No you can't carry 10 bags or cement it it but that is why it is called a commuter vehicle.
The "new" "Insight" does not do the original car any justice.
Article mentions the number of Civic Hybrids sold in 2007... I own a 2006 (received at the end of 2005).
The count for 2007 was a little over 32,000... but I'm pretty sure when I bought my 2006, they told me only 40,000 were made for US distribution. Just made me wonder a bit about the number... maybe it's low because of lack of availability??
What in the world is the vehicle industry's fascination with building uglier and uglier products??? I cannot fathom purchasing ANY vehicle that's been designed post 2000. Except for possibly the new Nissan GT-R, but that's a stretch...
In the U.S. emissions are regulated by grams per gallon of fuel, instead of grams per km or mile.
This is done so the US makers can sell a 7.3L megaturbopowerpenis duallytripply.
As one who has lived thru more decades of automotive evolution than I care to reveal, let me say: hybrid cars are ugly. Appearance-wise, they're throwbacks to the sixties. When I was a kid I thought cars would be really cool-looking and flying by now. Instead they're ground-bound and looking like they were designed by R. Crumb. I shake my impotent fist while cursing at the universe.
My 2002 Prius probably cost me more than a comparable non-hybrid car would have. But I love my hybrid -- and the reasons have nothing to do with economics and everything with being a nerd.
1. I drive the most advanced and highly engineered car on the road today (well, other than other hybrids). The engineering in my Prius is far more advanced than anything BMW or Mercedes throws into their cars.
2. I can drive silently on electric power only. Do you have any idea how cool that is? The freak'n car shuts off at traffic lights! If I go gently on the gas, I can drive 30/40 MPH on electric only and the car is SILENT!!! So freak'n cool. I've been dreaming of electric cars since I was a kid -- and I now have one (sorta)!
3. I feel good about having supported a fledgling environmentally beneficial technology with my dollars. My purchasing decision in 2002 played a part in revolutionizing the car culture in this country and the world.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
5. I drive a damned reliable and cheap to operate automobile that I enjoy driving.
In short -- economics was largely irrelevant to my decision. Instead of buying a sports car (also generally an economically irrational decision), I decided to go the hybrid route. Actually, when I analyzed purchasing the car, I conservatively assumed that I would get 60,000 miles from the car before it started falling apart or incurred expensive repairs. I also assumed that the car would have no re-sale value, as I expected the technology would be largely obsolete by the time I went to sell it. Even with these "worst-case" scenarios, I bought the car because it was worth it to me to be part of the revolution.
Of course, I'm now well over 60,000 miles and have had no troubles, but that's not really the point, is it?
it's also good for giving less money to religious madmen in saudi arabia.
Further proof that people by hybrids to "make a statement" rather than "to save money." Basically, it's an e-peen enlarger.
The Lexus hybrids are pretty good looking. The hybrid only cars, on the other hand, are designed for aerodynamics and not style. Like it or not, hybrid only models will all have the same "fish" look.
So is your car, unless it's at least 10 years old and has a four-cylinder engine. Anything fancier than that is a waste of money!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
...there are fully electric plug-in vehicles. I have no interest in a "hybrid" vehicle with it's overly complex internals (combined electric and internal-combustion). It will be interesting what effect the introduction of fully electric vehicles will have on the current automobile market. Will internal combustion car owners be able to sell off their clunkers?
It is about as valid as simplification in this circumstance as saying "OK, assume that Java can execute all operations in the same time that C can operate the same operation. Ergo, Java is no slower than C."
Back in reality, prepaying $5000 on a 6 year car loan at the prevailing rate of 6.52% means that you're signing up for six years of payments of $84 a month. This will entail you paying $1,055 in interest payments, increasing the time-to-break-even by roughly a year.
"But what if I pay cash for my car?"
Your money *still* has time value to it. For example, instead of overpaying for your car, you could put that $5,000 into an index fund and hope for the long-term historical average of roughly 8% appreciation a year. In this circumstance, the math is even more punishing to the Prius than it is in the above. Alternatively, you could stick it in a 100% safe FDIC-insured CD at 4% for five years. If you compare the $5k CD to someone who paid the Prius Premium, at the 5 year mark the CD holder has $6,083 in their bank account and the Prius owner has net savings of $6,120 on their gasoline bills -- i.e. tied at 60 months.
If you keep your car for 8 years... well, I hope you have good luck in the reliability lotto. My family had a Toyota which we finally euthanized after 9 years -- and we bought it used! Some cars have major, expensive failures far earlier than that. Its no decision to save $1,000 a year in gas and then pay $600 every 6 months for one of those old-car-blues types of problems.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
It was obvious to me why Honda supposedly "dropped the ball" as the original article wonders about, each Insight they sold was at a loss, and they weren't likely to ever recoup the costs. Better for their competition to have more demand for such a product.
Sure their investment paid off in other ways, and they were still the first with a production hybrid (which was more efficient than the Prius) and now have the most hybrid available models I believe.
I only wish they'd make more of them as plug-ins or fully electric instead of requiring all that gas.
Of course, I also wish they'd bring the diesel Honda's to the US market, which would be much nicer than a hybrid and better mileage than a Prius at least.
This tech offers some nice advantages when it's all working well, but when things do go wrong, you're often more at the mercy of manufacturer for overpriced parts and service. The more complex the designs are, the harder it is for competition to exist for replacement parts. Hence, you can end up being forced to pay $2000+ for a replacement controller unit (that costs $100 to make) simply because its not viable for anyone to make an alternative.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
Just FYI- if you are referring to more than one Prius the plural is Priuii
Maybe next year, when I'm ready to finally buy a car, I should drop by and pick one up.
It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
This is purly off hand, but i drive a 2001 Golf but one of my friends has a prius. We have both come to the conclusion that a hybrid is only sensible if you live/drive in town. I live out in leafy surrey and given the runs we do i get the same MPG as he does (44MPG ish). Now obviously this is different in town where my fuel economy goes down and his goes up. I guess the point im desperatly fumbling to make is that these hybrids can be worse than a normal ICE if they are (i wont say missold) sold to people that will see no benifit from switching.
Well, Bart, your uncle Arthur used to have a saying: "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out."
You are affectionately called a "Prius Snob" by the press.
Economics has to be irrelevant in the decision to buy a Prius or you would not make the choice. Having a stay-at-home mom for a wife along with 3 children under 6 years of age said I could not ignore that particular critereon so... I had to go conventional. Fortunately there are decent options that get good mileage and cost little. The used market is not so bad either.
Somehow, after the gras-roots interest ande movement towards full-electric cars, I was expecting Honda to come out with their version of an electric car.
As someone said: obviously, they don't want the money. WTF?
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
My car is 15 years old and has a straight-4. It's also incredibly good fun to drive and returns between 28-36 UK mpg. What does that say?
But why do they have to make them so damn ugly?
But how long do the batteries last? How much does it cost to replace them, and what's the disposal fee for the old ones?
Toyota isn't telling anyone that part. I don't know the numbers either, but I'd suspect that said battery costs will wipe out any gas savings you might have made, unless gas goes to $7 or $8.
The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
Aside from no mention of a plug-in hybrid, when are we going to get some full EV cars from the manufacturers? For my commute I don't need a fossil-fuel burning car at all, plus EV cars are inherently more reliable with far fewer moving parts, no spark plugs, no oil changes ever, etc. Almost no maintenance at all. Which, it would seem, is the problem, as manufacturers makes tons of money from parts and maintenance.
If they can put out a small EV that has an 80 mile range, that would be more than enough for me. And they can - GM did it years ago with the EV-1. Surely with todays tech they can put out an affordable car that has similar range, and, for more money, much longer range if you want it, but most people don't need such range at least for a second car.
EVs wouldn't be for everyone, but they would definitely be good for many of us. I really hope I can keep my 1997 Escort running until we finally see an EV from some manufacturer, as I really don't want to spend any money on another gasoline powered car for me, hybrid or not. If they don't, my only other option would be to pay for or do a conversion myself. The big problem with that is we don't have the best technology available to us at an affordable price and usually you convert a really old car. We need the manufacturers to build EVs because they can build them in quantity, get the costs down and the technology in our hands.
--- What?
I'd love to see your sources for that "fact". GM? Exxon?
--- What?
1. I drive the most advanced and highly engineered car on the road today (well, other than other hybrids). The engineering in my Prius is far more advanced than anything BMW or Mercedes throws into their cars.
I'm sorry, but my coworker that drives a 2002 525i is laughing hard on the ground over that statement. I strongly suggest you go and actually inspect and drive a old beat up BMW 525 from 5 years ago and see how it's more advanced. Hybrid design is incredibly simple. your Prius simply has an oversized starter that can move the car with an engine that can reduce load when in electric mode. nothing high tech, nothing really hard to engineer (one way clutch can do this) Do not be overly impressed by the LCD screen on the dash.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
It's not as simple as just gas mileage. The other major factor is resale value. The Prius is currently (and for several years) the leader in value-retention. I could sell my 8-month old Prius right now for sticker price. You simply cannot do that with a Chevy Malibu or a Ford Taurus.
So the calculus for the cost of owning the car depends entirely on what you plan to do with it afterwards. In my case, I'm financing my Prius and will sell it after 2-3 years and recover something like 1/2 to 2/3 of the sticker price. The total cost of ownership per month therefore ends up being lower than any other car of comparable quality/size/features.
If it was just about gas mileage, you'd be right. But it's more complicated than that. So you're wrong. Sorry! :P
As another example, I have a 2000 Honda Insight with over 100,000 miles on it that I bought in November of 2000. The last time I checked they were selling for $10,000, which is about 1/2 what I paid for it almost 8 years ago.
I have never heard of a Gas powered golf getting 44mpg so you must mean diesel.
In which case your argument doesn't make that much sense.
In the worse case he is getting the same mileage as you with less expensive more readily available gas. So he is already doing better. If you drive in the city it only tilts more in his favor as you acknowledge your mileage gets worse and his gets better.
Bottom line is I fail to see how matching him in your best case vs his worse case when you burn more expensive fuel makes his outcome the worse.
I guess suspension design is not engineering. Well, at least, Toyota's suspensions aren't, it feels as they just throw four shocks and springs wherever it fits. Oh, and the BMW 1 series has super neat diesel engines with 200+hp that does +40mpg in an ACTUAL fun to drive car. But I suppose that doesn't count either. Be happy with your Prius, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't put down what you haven't tried and don't know. Disclaimer: I own a Toyota because it is reliable and cheap, but I would never consider it "fun to drive". Only someone who hasn't tried something fun to drive would.
$10000 difference? This cars projected price is $19K. So you must have went with something cost in $9K. What would that be?
The only thing close seems to be stripped down Chevy Aveo.
I run a Mini Cooper Diesel. At 104g/km, it's the second lowest CO2 on the UK market, and it does a consistent 71 mpg (US), 89mpg (Imperial) cruising at 60 on the motorway averaged over the 12 miles in to work. But the reason I got it rather than the Prius (which I hired for a week) was that the Mini is just more fun. The top speed isn't that remarkable, perhaps 120mph, but it goes through corners like a rat up a drainpipe. There's more room in the front than in my old X-Type Jag, and while it's not huge in the back, passengers seem ok for an hour or two.
You should read more about it. There's a lot more to the vehicle's electric motor than being an over-sized starter.
http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/Understanding/WhatsGoingOnAsIDrive.htm
I agree with Aliencow though, the suspensions they put in them are pretty awful.
Instead of buying new cars every four years, we should be extending the life of our existing cars by at least another four years.
If everyone drove their cars 10+ years, bought used, etc., the impact of producing new cars would lowered drastically.
We need more simple daily drivers that are easy to maintain than anything. Hybrids won't save the Earth if you don't drive it for 10 years or better.
Since ALL of my weekday driving is well within about 50 kilometres of home, I'd kill for one.
And what about your weekend driving? Are you going to own a second car for those trips outside of town?
Why not buy a hybrid and drive it in electric-only mode as much as possible?
Why can't they make more 'green' cars that look svelt like the Tesla? At a reasonable price.
Well if you want a Tesla-like car, you'll have to hire Lotus to design it for you, which won't be cheap. And to meet modern safety standards, you'll have to use different (and expensive) construction methods and materials.
Otherwise you can go with the usual design process of the big automakers:
1. Someone who's had the creativity systematically beaten out of them draws up a decent looking but still somewhat bland and and forgettable design on paper.
2. The sketch is drawn up in CAD and goes through the dullification process. Any body lines are smoothed over, radical shapes homogenized, cool signature features of the car are removed in favor of something already in production (or easier to produce), nice proportionate wheels are swapped for the now standard golf-kart fuel-savers. To meet modern safety standards, the car has to be built like a tank, so A,B, and C pillars triple or quadruple in girth because it's too expensive to use honeycombed (unless it's a Subaru), triangulated or tubular pillar structures that wouldn't need to be the size of the frickin' Empire State building. The whole frame of the vehicle is beefed up and airbags are jammed in wherever possible.
3. An ugly, bloated, horrendously overweight jellybean of a car that bares only a slight resemblance to the concept sketch is produced. You yawn and never give it a second look.
People don't like cars that look too different, and won't buy cars if they can't compete in the safety arms race.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
What are US car companies doing to innovate?
Oh yeah, whining and sniveling and asking for bailouts:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/04/news/economy/automakers_Congress/index.htm
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
what you say bothers me very much. Silent cars are dangerous to anyone that works on roads, not even counting the blind.
When i'm out on a road, i count on my ears being the eyes in back of my head. You can become quite fixated when doing your job and sometimes will walk right out onto the road without looking, counting on your ears to alert you if there is traffic comming.
I've had many more close calls with hybrids then normal cars due to this.
BTW i do dig safe work so no police details or flagers around where i work for the most part.
They need to add a reverse mufler on these hybrids.
Paying $10K-$15K above the equivalent Echo (same Toyota body type) makes no economic sense unless you are some rich yuppie or celebrity making a fashion statement. You never recoup that in gasoline savings. There are plenty of better priced hybrid models around which arent selling too well.
Yeah -- the statement my Prius makes is "engineering matters." It's why I bought mine. It's a damn good reason.
It turns out that it's a hell of a car.
Very few people understand the astonishing lengths Toyota has gone to with the Prius, to make it a low-emissions car. For some reason, Toyota doesn't talk about it too much. One example is that the car has a thermos bottle in the front, where all the radiator fluid is pumped after you shut off the car -- and is pumped from when you "start" the car. For the first 7 seconds, the radiator fluid is circulate through the engine to warm it up before the gas engine actually starts, to lower the emissions and wear associated with starting a stone-cold engine.
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Look people, we're talking about cars here made by automakers
that build cars that are just barely broken in by the time
they roll over.
These aren't Detriot rolling turds we're talking about.
You don't have to depreciate it over the 3 years it would
take a Detroit turd to implode.
Just by avoiding something built by Detroit you're probably
coming out way ahead.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Torque yes, fuel efficient yes, quiet? You must be joking. Even the best diesel still sounds like a tractor compared to a petrol engine.
I see you haven't been to Europe. The last Diesel I rented in France had a problem - I couldn't tell by ear when the engine was on unless I completely turned off the fan. It was quieter than any non-hybrid/electric I've heard in America, too. Not to mention getting 50 mpg for 90 mph driving and 40 mpg for city driving and having a pretty peppy engine.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
I bought a 2008 Camry Hybrid in January of this year. My car is eligible for $0 tax credit.
Since the 2008 Camry Hybrid only came out late last year, the maximum possible credit you are eligible for is $650... Not $2000.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html
I also doubt you get 55 MPG in that thing, I get 43 on occasion, 36 most of the time in city driving. On the highway it gets 35 MPG. 2000/250 = 8 MPG.
Unless there were state tax credits involved, there is FUD at work here and this is NOT an informative post.
I own a hybrid, and I do so even though I realize that I may never break even on the increased purchase price. I also bought it even though I believe that it may not be any better for the environment than a standard powertrain. Why I did buy it is in the hopes that one day I will not have to see our president kissing a member of the Saudi royal family. Energy independence is an imperative for this country if we have any hopes of ever maintaining a leadership role.
Allegedly the Audi diesel that won Le Mans a year or 2 ago was quiet enough that "you could drive it through a suburban neighborhood and no one would call the police".
I imagine it was quite powerful too.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
You'd have to be doing some serious driving to go through $30 of gas a week with a hybrid...
Honda is what Ford could have been ... before the truck-centric lobotomy the soccer-moms-in-Explorers craze wrought disaster to them. Give me my '93 capri (aussie built + 35 mpg convertible) anyday.
... ever follow a Prius up a hill? My Element has a front windshield like a barn door but still comes up behind pokey Prius-es everyday.
I predict FoMoCo will become part of Hyundai keeping its name. GM and Chrysler -- having owned both cars at various time over the past 31 years who cares what happens to GM and Chrysler.
That leaves Honda as the closest thing to the embodiment of the spirit of the original US auto industry. My wacky '03 Honda Element which I can still drive due to its SUV that fits in your garage + great gas mileage proves that Honda has the foresight to invent (and the original Insight was way ahead of its time back in 1999 at 60+ mpg).
An inexpensive Insight (even fuel cell or plugin Insight) I would buy it in a second.
The biggest problem I observe with Prius is the batteries are too expensive and not warranted beyond a certain number of years/miles. Plus its heavy
You forgot depreciation and federal tax credits. Consumer Reports ran the numbers this month and came up with several hybrid cars that will save money over their non-hybrid equivalents. These were often the same model of car for a true apples-to-apples comparison. They claim that many hybrids will save money after the first year.
There's a nice table of the results, but it's for subscribers. They calculate the total cost of ownership for a five year period, and they come up with $28,250 for the Prius and $29,750 for a Civic LX. The Prius costs $24,170 list and the Civic is $18,430. The Prius has the lowest 5-year total owner cost on the cart.
I think it's fair to assume that gas price inflation will keep pace with the return on a T-Bill, so the interest isn't going to help. It depends a lot on whether we elect another representative from the oil industry as Vice President, but that's a topic for another conversation.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
This is all slashdot really needs to know.
Anything that seats less than 35 is unacceptable for my daily solo commute.
At the moment a Prius is priced several thousand dollars more than a
comparable-size and power non-hybrid car but that's just because
hybrids are newer and more popular. The cost to manufacture a
hybrid should be less than a traditional car because the hybrid, with
the exception of its battery, is simpler
and with fewer moving parts. The Prius doesn't have a
'multi-speed' gear box, starter motor, alternator, serpentine belt, or
torque converter/clutch so all of those are left out along with the
collateral stuff associated with them such as wiring harness
components, starting battery, interlock controls, and various
mechanical linkages and mounting brackets making the assembly
line simpler and cheaper. Also, stuff like the engine and
radiator are relatively small and presumably less expensive. The
Prius does have a planetary
gear system as a power-splitting device but it's a relatively
simple component to manufacture. The manufacturing cost for the
battery is the biggest adder over a traditional car and that is
probably, at the moment, only about a $1,000 increase in manufacturing
cost over a traditional car while leaving out the other stuff probably
saves several thousand. The bottom line is that hybrids
should eventually be cheaper to buy than a conventional car and likely
cheaper to operate over their service life as well.
I don't own a Prius or other hybrid yet -- I alternate between driving one of two 11-year-plus 120,000-mile-plus cars waiting for something really, really high-tech (plug-in hybrid? EV with a 200 mile range? Fuel cells? This new Honda?) Between having one or the other car in the shop to keep the "fleet" going, I think I can hold out another 7 years.
Of the Prius owners and wannabes I know, there is one family member with a grueling 20-mile each way clogged freeway big city commute who drives a Prius, and that is probably the intended application for that car. Another family member is convinced that a hybrid is "their next car purchase", and that family member doesn't have a clue whether a Prius would even help with their largely exurban driving pattern.
If you dig the electric mode and watching the energy-flow meter as a geek thing, more power to you and pay no attention to your critics. At least you are getting serious personal satisfaction out of something you spent your money on, and the naysayers are simply jealous.
What's funny is that the first few years of the Prius looked pretty good.
But, sales caught on only after it started being eye-catchingly dildo-ish.
Tell the moon dogs, tell the March hare
European diesel engines are not only near-silent, at the very least on a par noise-wise with the petrol equivalent, they have virtually eliminated most of the other major stigmas that came with diesel - like the shorter power band, and the turbo lag you tended to have.
Combine that with the fuel efficiency, and it's no wonder that 42% of new vehicles sold in the UK are derv-burners.
No, that change is applicable only for the Prius, because the original claims of 60 MPG were bunk and everyone knows it can't get more than 48.
The parent's complaint about older cars getting better MPG is still valid. Heck, even my old Corolla used to get 42 MPG highway IRL.
I'm puzzled that people insist that the hybrid vs. non-hybrid choice is purely economics. When I buy gas, I'm sending money to Wahhabi terrorists who want to kill me, and oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia. I am directly sponsoring torture, terrorism, etc. If I divert that expenditure to a hybrid vehicle, some of my money at least is going to paying for better engineering, and funding a program meant to lower our dependence on oil, and thus our funding of terrorism etc. No, I don't have a Prius. My '91 Subaru, with the $200 per month of gas I use, are sufficient for my needs. I have more money tied up in bicycles than I do in automobiles. But if I were looking for a new car, my eyes would be on the plug-in hybrids. I wish I weren't so convinced that the major automakers and petroleum companies are sabotaging the development of electric cars. Yes, I've watched "Who Killed the Electric Car." Pretty nauseating.
I could swear I recently read something where Toyota stated that the plural of Prius was Prius (like fish).
The Prius features the raindrop design,
The Prius features a modified raindrop design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Mmm, european diesels. You just have to ask the Belgians how clean they are.
That's just stupid and will get you hit, regardless of whether there are silent cars on the road. I do a good bit of roadside work and am always aware of oncoming traffic, even when I'm not actually in the road. Step into the street without looking? Not a chance.
Will they make it look like a car this time? Or will they once again make it look like a container for the worlds largest Big Mac?
They're both pretty nice compact cars that get fantastic mileage (~34mpg) without any fancy hybrid stuff.
My 1994 Honda Civic VX gets between 32 (worst-ever, uphill one-way) and 62 miles per gallon (470 and 480 freeway miles round-trip). Over the last 29,242 miles, I've averaged 44.66mpg (45.37 if I correct for the larger tires that were on the car when I got it). The car has 162,000 miles, and I'm sure I'd've done better if Arizona wasn't so hilly, and if I hadn't kept the speed below 72mph for so many freeway miles (it really does get better mileage at 75mph vs 71mph, due to the change in the camshaft timing @2500rpm).
My Civic VX fuel log spreadsheet - there is a graph of MPG on sheet 3.
COST-EFFECTIVENESS OF FUEL ECONOMY IMPROVEMENTS IN 1992 HONDA CIVIC HATCHBACKS, by the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
My car has a lean-burn feature, whereas the new Fit doesn't, due to pollution regulations (my car puts out extra nitrous oxides, I guess).
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
The original point of a hybrid such as the Toyota Prius was not gas mileage believe it or not.
When it was designed, the vehicle was meant to be more friendly to the environment (supposed zero emissions). Good mileage is just a side effect (and yes the mileage is beneficial considering the amazing lifespan of the car).
So, keeping it's original purpose in mind, you have to realize that the crowd that it appeals to the most are the people who are more environmentally aware and don't care so much about it paying for itself via the gas mileage.
That being said, the current gas prices may be causing the wrong crowd to be attracted to it.
The poor folk like me. :b
I own an 07 Prius. You can really feel the drag coefficient when you coast. The thing will coast just about forever.
On my commute home, I jump off the freeway and up an off-ramp hill to my neighborhood. One of the things I like to do is to take my foot off the accelerator at freeway speed a ways before the ramp and see how far up the hill I can coast.
It's really a bizarre sensation. I usually can make it all the way at a decent speed and still have to use the brakes. It almost feels like you're sliding on ice. It's the kinetic->potential energy loss going up the hill that does most of the slowing of the car, not the wind and friction losses. And you can feel it. It's unearthly. It gives you the sensation that some invisible force is pulling you up the hill. Because you're so used to other cars slowing down much faster in similar circumstances.
The Prius really feels like you're driving a solid piece of magic sometimes.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Actually I live in europe. Diesels are not quiet.
They only sell a lot because of the fuel efficiency - no other reason. As soon as that financial advantage disappears watch diesel cars disappear as fast as they appeared.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
Oh no, they only say they do, their animal hindbrains still gets hot and excited at the sound of a totally non-politically correct, fuel-sucking, expensive Maserati.
as that used by gasoline engines (the Otto Cycle)
For that matter, the Otto cycle isn't the most efficient for spark engines either. The Atkinson cycle, having a power stroke longer than the compression stroke, can be more efficient.
Though I don't think that that efficiency increase would be restricted to gasoline engines - it could also be utilized with a diesel engine.
Then again, I still remember reading about high-efficiency two stroke diesel engines should be able to meet emission standards without much effort. They use a turbocharger to flush out waste gases at the end of the cycle with fresh air, and no fuel is wasted(the major reason for fuel inefficiency and pollution with two stroke gasoline engines) because diesel isn't injected into the chamber until the end of the compression cycle anyways.
Could probably do this with gasline, you'd just need a diesel type injector for each cylinder.
I don't read AC A human right
I was just reading about some of the hybrid truck proposals.
One of the things mentioned was that many of them would come with the ability to output 120/240 VAC.
So you could come in with your(not necessarily small) truck, plug your jobsite electrical system into it and have a highly efficient generator without having to bring in a seperate piece of equipment.
As a bonus, the truck's systems would have it running the engine at optimal speed/power, for example - turning off the engine when demand is low and the batteries charged.
Fleet use wise, for many businesses that need a truck, but not the towing, for in-city use would be able to justify a hybrid on gas savings very quickly. Many of the trucks at dad's work only get 8-12mpg. Many could be pure electric for the mileage they do in a day.
I don't read AC A human right
Isn't that the stereotypical reason why people buy luxury cars, muscle/sports cars, large trucks, etc.?
The guy chose to buy a car. His money, his car, according to the things he values. Isn't that ultimately why anyone buys the cars they do?
If he is a fool for doing so, then he's probably a wiser fool than one who jeers his choice.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
I can't see making a hybrid truck. First, most hybrids have SMALLer motors, which lowers overall hauling power.
Hybrids also have electric motors which *can* be designed to have HUGE torque - much higher than petrol/diesel engines. There is a reason locomotives are powered by electric motors. A hybrid does not HAVE to be lower powered.
Second, the drive train is spec'ed to increase mileage, again making hauling power an afterthought.
Again a design trade-off that can go the other way.
The whole idea of a hybrid is a small, light, vehicle with tweaked CVT transmission to get the highest mpg's.
No the small light hybrid is just what has been popular. Look, you can design a hybrid for performance just as much as you can for fuel economy. The only questions are whether people will buy it and what the cost will be.
Does the Ford Escape Hybrid not count as a light truck?
I'd put it more in the category with station-wagons-for-people-with-self-image-issues. :-) But yes I would say it counts.
Seriously though I'd LOVE to see a Honda Ridgeline or Toyota Tacoma with either a diesel or hybrid powerplant. Diesel-electric would be even better.
The engineering in my Prius is far more advanced than anything BMW or Mercedes throws into their cars.
I've worked as an automotive engineer and I call bullshit. Either you have some odd definition of "advanced" or you have no idea what you are talking about. A bunch of nifty electronics and gauges for you to read does not make it the most advanced car on the planet. As an example the suspension in any BMW is FAR more capable and sophisticated than the one in the Prius. I'm not saying a BMW is necessarily more "advanced" but it certainly isn't less. There is a LOT more to the technology in non-hybrid cars than you are giving credit for.
I have no issue with the rest of your reasons. The Prius and other hybrids are cool and there are reasons for buying one other than pure economics. The fuel economy and lack of noise pollution alone are sufficient reason in my book.
That was my point. That there's no difference, really, between petrol and diesel cars now other than the fuel efficiency, and the better towing capability of a diesel.
The rattly tractor engines of old are long gone.
Why is payoff always brought up for hybrids? There are plenty of other extras on a car you could get that won't payoff financially -- yet people still want and get them (often to the detriment of other drivers).
How do these payoff?
Sound system, subwoofers, CD changer, GPS, window tinting, leather seats, spoiler, sunroof, chrome, pneumatic shocks, alloy wheels, 4 wheel drive, NOX, V8, Turbo, Hemi, mudflaps, undercoat, shag carpeting....
He's probably refering to this:
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/
Check out Mahindra. They'll be selling a compact Diesel pickup in 2010 or so, and it could get around 30 mpg. They aren't pretty, but they'll sell like hotcakes, I bet.
I hate to say it, but that's evolution. If you can't adapt to new threats then you'll die off and the smarter folks will bang your wife and live on.
That's just the way things works.
Yeah I know, the blind are screwed, but lets be honest, the odds aren't on their side to begin with. Perhaps it will shorten the time it takes to evolve sonar 'vision'. Take that political corectness!!
** this post may appear more rude than intended **