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GM, Utilities Partner To Advance Plug-In Hybrids
chareverie writes "General Motors is forming a team with utility companies nationwide to create a charging infrastructure for electric cars. Their goal is to improve the design of charging stations — making them weatherproof and child-proof, for example — in locations such as public garages, meters, and parking lots. They're also working on ways to avoid overwhelming the utilities during peak hours. Their goal is to have these improved charging stations implemented by 2010, when the Chevy Volt is introduced. Everyone recognizes however that a national car-charging infrastructure would be far from complete at that time."
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
The volt will come out just in time for Oil to hit $45 a barrel.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Do they mean wall outlets?
Time to put the tin foil hat on...
Anytime I hear an (fossil burning) auto manufacturer claiming this or that about anything electric I feel like I'm listening to my friend talk about quitting smoking.
"Oh, I'm on ultra-light cigarettes now..."
"Oh, well, we don't have electric cars feasible yet, but we still need to work on the charging infrastructure and stuff anyhow, so..."
The whole hybrid car deal is just red herring, or distraction at best.
I think hybrids are a way for the big players to maintain their hold the industry away from new competition whilst they economically migrate slowly away from petrol manufacturing equipment to electric manufacturing.
I think this tin foil hat isn't working...
Read my Very Short "Stories"
Anyone else find it comforting to know the technology we needed a decade ago is not even in the Alpha stages yet?
I hope they go through with this. I also hope the US will get some outlets in parking lots and etc and open a few nuclear plants.
Of course there going to use stuff that can be used to track you to make you pay for all of it but one hurdle at a time.
We need this now. So that when we overthrow the oppressors none of us will be able to drive when they cut the power....
I believe we are approaching the era of the "commuter car". Things like this:
http://www.greenvehicles.com/specs/triac.html
80 MPH, 100 mile range. This will suit the majority of people's daily driving needs. We'll all still have our gas-burning minivan or SUV for weekend trips to granny's or the lake or whatever, but most of the time we'll be driving our electric covered motorcycle to work and back.
All you need for this is an electrical outlet at home.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
You'll need a GM Certified "Super VOLT-adapter" for just $499.99 for any non-VOLT electric car to use this grid. (Licensing and Taxes may apply, adapter not sold in California or Alaska).
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
Didn't they check with the president? The real solution to energy prices is to drill for more gas!
A gallon of gas contains approx. 1.3 x 10^8 joules of energy, and there are 3.6 x 10^6 joules in a kilowatt hour. At $0.10 per kilowatt hour, that is equivalent to $3.61 worth of electricity to replace a gallon of gas. Which isn't a whole lot cheaper than current gas prices.
Of course, this leaves out difference in conversion efficiency of gas v.s. electricity.
And who pays for this? You do. Whether you use it or not.
How about mandatory solar panels on every new home, and incentives to put solar panels on existing homes?
That's a lot of area, collectively speaking.
The biggest barrier to pure electrics right now is the time it takes to charge a vehicle.
Super Capacitors are supposed to change that by allowing charge times equivalent or less than the time spent at the petrol pump.
Last time I heard about them was early this year as they were seeking to scale them to the industrial level.
That technology is what will make electric cars "feasible"
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Just as Eisenhower signed off on the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act to kickstart the roads system in the US so too should the government act to fund this.
We have to go electric in the future, gas power isn't a viable long term solution and oil is going to be too valuable in the future to waste on driving around. But the 'free market' isn't going to fund the kind of network we need in the short term. Sure, they'll build the cars but infrastructure costs are beyond them.
Without a national infrastructure program the move towards electric transportation will be slow and patchy. This really is a case of if we build it they will come.
> avoid overwhelming the utilities during peak hours
Distributed generation - have charging stations generate their own power (solar, wind).
I just read an article about the Lightning electric vehicle on elReg
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/22/lightning_fast_charge_supercar/
This may make electric cars practical.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7081
Imagine: 200 miles/charge and a 10 minute "fill up" at a commercial charging station (overnight at your house with 50 amp service)
I'd much prefer this over the "hydrogen economy" that people tout as the future. Also, it would be easier to build out a high voltage charging infrastructure than a hydrogen dispensing infrastructure. The only problem I see is everyone charging their vehicles during peak usage instead of at night causing even greater peaks, but there is no reason people (with garages) can't trickle-charge the car at night.
I may even give up my venerable diesel if I can drive coast to coast in the same time frame and same expense on batteries as on diesel.
(only slightly off topic because I was talking electric vehicles instead of hybrid)
More music, fewer hits
Is making GM cars not TEH SUCK.
Just imagine, a Electric Cavalier, sweet!!!
Where Does Electricity Come From? I would love to see them eletric Bills
If it leads to a proprietary method which other automakers and utilities must license with fees then I am hoping someone else comes along and whacks them.
I still think while we are doing our typical over reaction; c'mon Europeans put up with prices higher than this; at least this over reaction is leading somewhere good. Granted it may mean life with even more SUVs as the technology will make their mileage acceptable. Since the majority of SUV/CUV don't do any heavy towing it can easily be adapted to their increased carrying capacities.
I guess giving up the "frivolous" luxuries was too much to ask
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
GM's finally seeing the light, I want a Volt. But PG&E's regulated rate structure will put me at 400% of baseline and US$0.35 / KWh to charge it. $5.00/gallon gas is still cheaper(!)
Detroit shifts gears from Big Oil to Big Electricity
Meanwhile, in other news, Big Pharma and Big Media cooperate to extend monopolies.
Obituaries: Net neutrality killed in a hit and run by Ma Bell++
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
The main downside of solar panels at home and EVs, apart from the cost, is that the EV is usually at work in the daytime. So the obvious place to put solar panels is on business sites where they could feed into EV chargers during hours of maximum sunlight.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
What happens with some thug snips your power cord?
Will the cord be coming from your car, or from the outlet, and how easy and cheap is it to swap out cords?
When I was a kid we had these 'friction' cars, you pushed them along the floor a few times while they "revved" up and then let them go.
That's the technology I want, with a big robot to "re-rev" them at every intersection.
The best cars made sparks too.
Nullius in verba
Toyota's 2009 plug-in Prius will make all this irrelevant. When the Volt comes out with worse specs and a higher price - and without the internal combustion "back-up" the Prius has GM's stock price will take yet another plunge. Too little too late. Somebody needs to buy GM, break it up and liquidate what's left. Hopefully Toyota, Honda, Nissan, or somebody who knows anything about selling cars will see value in some of their assets.
If you want to avoid overloading the utilities, you need to charge at night. There are two challenges with this:
1) You need the capacity to run all day.
2) You need to encourage consumers to charge at night. Currently only wholesale customers pay different rates depending on the hour. Expanding this to residential customers would require a substantial overhaul of distribution networks. Fortunately, everyone agrees we need an overhaul anyway. Unfortunately, this would make that overhaul more expensive and delay it further.
There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
GM probably had this stuff in planning years and years ago. only now theyre in a state of panic because their low gas mileage / still more unreliable cars are selling for crap.
something like this is a mega huge benefit to GM and the electric companies
WTF kind of troll is this?
You're focusing on passive safety rather than active safety, which is primarily a North American way of thinking.
Here, read this.
Most of us think that S.U.V.s are much safer than sports cars. If you asked the young parents of America whether they would rather strap their infant child in the back seat of the TrailBlazer or the passenger seat of the Boxster, they would choose the TrailBlazer. We feel that way because in the TrailBlazer our chances of surviving a collision with a hypothetical tractor-trailer in the other lane are greater than they are in the Porsche. What we forget, though, is that in the TrailBlazer you're also much more likely to hit the tractor-trailer because you can't get out of the way in time. In the parlance of the automobile world, the TrailBlazer is better at "passive safety. " The Boxster is better when it comes to "active safety," which is every bit as important.
The safest cars are the ones that can dodge an accident, rather than plow through some obstacle and hope to survive due to sheer mass.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
While I like the idea of charging cars, you might be hard-pressed for the government helping to fund such a venture. The government makes too much money off of taxing fuel to use on roads and whatnot. In the end, they would probably end up taxing your electric bill at home.
Screw that. EV's have a chance to disintermediate oil companies and gas stations - if we let it happen. What GM is doing is exactly the opposite of what we need.
You need to be able to charge your vehicle at home from renewable sources. That'll make a difference.
Paying the same as you do now for the same old same old (albeit electric) would be good but not as good as the above.
Need Mercedes parts ?
I would think that a vehicle that could plug into any 50-60Hz, 90-260VAC source would make the absolute most sense.
Thinking of that, at a motel I recently stayed at in Montana, each parking spot had a regular AC outlet mounted about 7 feet high on the wall in front of the parking spot.
That kept it out of casual contact from kids, pretty much ensured that any water on the cord would run down-hill away from the outlet, and each outlet had a spring-loaded weather-proof cover for when they were not in use.
(Those were primarily for winter use: Block heaters to keep oil and fuel from gelling.)
With the addition of some way to simply meter the load on each outlet, and providing a key-switch so one could only use the outlet one is assigned, something like that could be an inexpensive, nearly universally available, simple to install and maintain charging grid for plug-in vehicle charging. (I've seen very similar things on parking meter posts, and they could even be coin/bill/credit card operated, just like modern parking meters...)
Still, though, my biggest problem with plug-in rechargeable vehicles is the length of time it takes to recharge and the very limited mileage between charges.
Driving from home to destination on that recent trip required about 600 miles/day, and is not something that any currently-being-discussed plug-ins can accomplish.
When electric vehicles were first being energetically discussed, one of the promising ideas was removable battery trays/packs that were "leased" with a full charge and rolled into the vehicle.
Instead of parking and charging to "refuel," each electric car service station would have a batch of charged batteries available on carts to be swapped in no longer than it takes to refuel a petroleum powered vehicle.
The discharged batteries would be charged overnight at off-peak times and be ready for the next day's needs.
That would also cover the cost of replacement batteries, as the lease or rental fees would cover not only the cost to charge and change the battery packs, but the cost of replacing them when they were no longer up to required minimum power retention levels.
At least doing it that way, stopping every 200 miles or so to swap batteries, would be better than stopping every 200 miles for several hours to recharge non-swappable batteries.
(It would also allow for some much needed standardization in battery packs and such...)
What bothers me is that idea is from reading magazines like Popular Mechanics and Popular Science in the '50's and '60's... We don't seem to have come very far since then, eh?
--Tomas
Maybe you will have to pay for the charge. Who gets that money? Dunno. Could we have FREE cars, and the juice costs? Are they going to "encode" the current so that people can't use it for something else? If your car runs out of gas, you buy a gas can... how do you "refill" a car 20 miles from the nearest charging station? Will cars have "platforms" like MS, Mac, UNIX? "Oh, this power coupling is BIG Endian, I can't use it." ;-)
You think you have long lines at the pump, wait until they HAVE to power up all at once to get out of town a Rush Hour. And speaking of Rush, is this the beginning of "The Motor Law"? How long until internal Combustion cars are levied a surtax, and then made illegal?
Anyone?
Is a plug-in vehicle really cleaner than a gasoline vehicle in the long run? What about the extra draw on the power grid? What about coal burning power stations?
Are plug-in vehicles a short-sighted solution? Are we just shifting the power control from the oil companies to the power companies?
The Volt, which will have a MAX range of 40 miles per charge, does not impress me in the least. I drive a 60 mile round trip. Let's see the hydrogen fuel cell cars. The infrastructure, which Shell has committed to, might be a bit easier to get in place?
"Trust that little voice in your head that says 'Wouldn't it be interesting if...' and then do it." - Duane Michals
The answer is single-use-zoning and suburban sprawl.
Daily needs are separated from each other so that you have to drive between home, work, shopping and entertainment. It's flat out illegal to build a corner store in a residential neighbourhood or build a building with apartments above retail stores, and developers are forced to set them back off the road behind enormous parking lagoons, just to make sure the cars are happy and pedestrians are prohibited.
This is a monumentally wasteful pattern of settlement. It's like building a 'house' with the bathroom, kitchen and bedroom all miles apart but connected by roads.
Bring back mixed-use mixed-income development. Bring back the humble 'street' that has served humanity so well for millennia ever since we started living in cities. This isn't the industrial revolution age anymore, the days are gone when every workplace spewed soot into the air and it made some sense to partition it off where people didn't live. An office in the same building as your apartment isn't going to hurt you, nor will a corner store that you can walk to. Write to your congressman and tell him to back the New Urbanist movement.
But before you do that, you have to get mad! I want you to go out to your window, lean out, and yell, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!!"
Drill baby drill - on Mars
It just takes a very long time to renew.
Thank you thank you, be sure to catch my act this weekend in Vegas.
...but at this rate, I'd expect barrels of oil to be at parity with barrels of money by then.
Can I just get a car that runs directly on dollar bills and cut out the middleman?
Move all sig!
...if they're able to charge your car in 10 to 15 minutes! Otherwise, except if you're at your destination and your car is waiting at the parkometer, will you really wait 4 to 8 hours for your car to be 85% to fully charged?
Those of you who will say that it's impossible to recharge a car in 10 to 15 minutes, I'll just tell you that Altair Nanotechnologies builds a battery pack that can do the job, it just needs the proper infrastructure to send enough amps and volts to the car.
The price of Gas in Dubai is 25 cents a gallon, Iran 42 cents, Qatar 83 cents, Saudi Arabia is 45 cents per gallon, Venezuela 11 cents. That is the real cost. What we in the western countries are paying is designed to generate huge profit margins for oil companies. They are fucking over the consumers, and yet you stand here saying, "Please sir can I have another!"
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
So, where do I purchase one of these 100% efficient internal combustion engines?
The Volt has an onboard gasoline generator to constantly recharge the batteries for trips longer than 40 miles. 95% of my trips right now are less than 40 miles, so I can run on electricity most of the time. When I have long trip, I can run with the gasoline generator.
Some more info on the Volt: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=126606
I am excited to see these type of advance to pull us away from our dependency on oil.
Sure, charging stations are needed for rechargable cars. Only, there are a few little problems. The biggest one is that we aren't building power plants any longer. We are running on coal-fired plants from the 1950s and hydroelectric plants from the 1930s. Nobody is going to build a new high-efficency coal-fired power plant today. Where, exactly would they put it? How long would it take to get through the environmental impact studies? What community group would come out and say they need it, vs. all the groups saying it will kill children and ruin the landscape?
Nuclear? Sure, maybe a couple of plants might get fast-tracked in the next few years. But the electric boom is pretty much over.
Plan on more brown-outs. Supply exceeding demand? I don't think so, not in any future that I can foresee. Will there be more wind and solar generation? Absolutely. Will it keep up with growth in demand from cities? Today, right now, we could use a few hundred megawatts additional for every city in the US. It isn't going to happen.
Yes, they are going to build a huge wind farm in Texas. Only problem is, the transmission lines aren't up to carrying any massive increases, so a huge part of the project will be to increase transmission capacity. And this is happening in a small part of Texas. What about the rest of the states?
Reduce, reuse and recycle. Mostly, for electricity it is reduce. California and Florida both have home controls to turn off your electric consumption during peak demand periods. It is coming to other states as well. There simply isn't enough electricity to go around today in the US. We are not building power plants. We are not increasing transmission capacity.
Do you really think there is enough power to charge up hundreds of cars in a city of any size today?
I still don't see how hybrids or electrics are cost efficient. All that r & d into redesigning something we already have. Those billions of dollars in research has to come from somewhere - and it's you and me, bub. Why not figure out how to retrofit instead of dispose? Heck, even if we use natural gas or propane as a fuel, and leave petroleum for the plastics industry. Ideally, hydrogen is THE fuel, imho. http://youtube.com/watch?v=HF__Qlhtnws&search=water%20power http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/05/340246.shtml
GM's other electric car (EV1, the one that they killed because it worked too well) had a waterproof, childproof, and in fact idiot-proof charger. It looked kind of like a ping pong paddle, except the handle was gripped parallel to the paddle instead of perpendicular. The paddle had a cord that was reeled (coiled? been a while) up on a box that was bolted to a wall, or on a free-standing pedestal in front of a parking spot. You pushed the paddle part into a slot on the nose of the car, and induction was used to pump some juice into your batteries.
There weren't many EV1's on the road, but if you lived in CA or AZ and knew where to look, you could find charging stations for them, so clearly building the infrastructure isn't THAT hard: all you do is bolt down some charger boxes and plug them in to ordinary wall sockets. Generally you'd see them in parking garages near places that engineers worked :p Anyways, the charger boxes themselves are dead simple to build; it's a friggin' transformer and some heavy gauge wire. All of the fancy charge monitoring computers are already built into the car. If GM's smart, they'd license the design for a song, and use it as a marketing coup.
Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
Caps are perfect for regenerative braking and bursts of acceleration.
GM Volt: ha! I'll believe it when I see it. GM isn't about bad luck, its about bad decisions and so much clout that they survive when they do not deserve it.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Depending on your value of "SOME" couldn't you rent a car when you need the extra range?
No.
For starters, time is usually very precious when such a car is needed. (You lose much of a day off both ends of a vacation, for example.) Such proposals have the consistent flaw of valuing the driver's time at zero.
Then there's the extra driving and related fuel costs to pick up and drop off the specialty vehicle. (If you're 50 miles from the rental company - and in areas where you actually need, say, off-road capability that's a SHORT distance, you're talking an extra 200 miles of driving.)
Then there's the enormously higher cost per passenger mile of a rental vehicle - which has to make up the company's costs for operation, losses, damage, sitting idle waiting for a customer, etc.
Then there's the risk of the vendor not having a suitable car when you need it. (He has to have a lot of cars sitting idle a lot of the time to keep that risk low, amortizing that cost over the time it is rented - see above about costs of idle time.)
You might get away with this if a "special trip" is a once per year thing. (But then you're risking ruin of your vacation...) If it's once a quarter, or once a month, or once every two weeks, give it up.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Other than a house plug, one can surely expect stupid proprietary fast recharge plugs from each car maker that do not work together.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
The biggest barrier to pure electrics right now is the time it takes to charge a vehicle.
Wrong. Where did you get this idea from?
The top problems are a)energy density, and b)electric grid. A: availability and expense of lithium-based rechargeable batteries (and patent/licensing restrictions on NiMH). B: the grid can't support the load of everyone coming home at 6pm and plugging in their car to charge. 20 gallons of gas contains 34KWhr, of which your average car can extract 1/4 of that for motive force...so 8.5KWHr. Let's say the average commute is 60 miles both ways for a suburbanite- about 2 gallons of gas, or 17KWHr. Let's guess that you need to do this in 12 hours. That translates to more than 1.4KW (there are losses at the charger and in the batteries- neither is 100% efficient) all night, and I'm assuming 100% efficiency on the part of the electric car.
Super Capacitors are supposed to change that by allowing charge times equivalent or less than the time spent at the petrol pump.
Ultra Capacitors (get it right) don't have the necessary energy density, which is why they're used to provide short-term high power and to 'soak' regenerative braking currents, usually in electric city busses. They also present some nasty safety problems because of their nearly unlimited discharge currents.
Furthermore, Lithium rechargeable batteries have made leaps and bounds with regards to charge rate- a pack large enough for a small car can now be charged faster than even your average electric dryer outlet can 'feed' it. People will need to have very heavy-duty wiring installed by an electrician, and if there's no electric stove or other large-current device, there may be quite a bit of upgrade work.
Oh, and GM is looking to solve a problem they already solved. It's called magnecharge. It's completely safe, and what was used in the EV-1 and several other electric vehicles (I think EV RAV4's used them too, not sure.)
Please help metamoderate.
In 2009 the US government will be ready to plan the next generation power grid we NEED to build anyhow (the old one is wearing out and was built and defined by government long long ago.)
Furthermore, other countries have better grids and are building next-gen grids and can serve as examples. (I know this is asking too much; for american's to observe other countries.) "Smart grids" are not beyond government and neither is high voltage pulsed DC transmission.
Modern Americans are so brainwashed they don't think government could go to the Moon and some think we never did get there. NASA is government, BTW.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
make 'em ZOmBIE pro0f too ARRRR! maTEY
Hmmm...Job creation, new markets, more people working and paying taxes...Oh I forgot, we have to spend money on the war...Never mind.
More 600 dollar stimulus checks for everyone!!! Hooray!!!!!
Gas is taxed in USA, but it is subsidized too. Our taxes are paying for military around the Persian Gulf, almost exclusively for the purposes of secure oil trade.
If the oil companies had to provide their own security instead of relying on the taxpayer, gasoline would cost more.
You'll just have to be on the back-end of the adoption curve, assuming widespread use of plugins is really the direction the market moves.
It's not unreasonable to consider installing curbside chargers that take a credit card, but obviously the earliest adopters are going to be dependent on their own chargers.
On the positive side, you urban-dwellers hypothetically already have reduced driving needs and better access to alternate means of transportation.
Supply from the grid is still an issue though. I think having chargers that go beyond simply timing their recharge to be off-cycle with typical peak-demand times will be necessary. It shouldn't be too complicated to do: An internet connection on the charger so it can poll a server run by the power company. The server monitors both supply (and what types of supply if they want to optimize for lowest-cost or cleanest sources) and demand and assigns power limits to the chargers based on marginal supply, time-in-queue, subscription level, etc.
Of course, there will be plenty who hack their chargers to ignore such instructions, but if it's factored into a contract specific to those using a smart-demand system like this, then that is a legal issue more than a technical one. Billing might also be complicated, with some users not wanting to wait for priority, while others would be happy to in exchange for lower rates.
Natural gas pipelines feed many, perhaps most of the homes in US48, about 6m^3 per hour max. The energy in 6m^3 natural gas is about 6*39Mj = 234Mj:h, or 65 kilowatts. NG fuelcells already get at least 40% efficiency into electricity, so that would be 26KW peak. Which means that the average home at 2KW average continuous needs only 0.08% of maximum duty (the typical 5KW peak demand would be 0.2% duty).
Big SUVs have about 80KW max output engines. If a 40% efficient fuelcell drove a 90% efficient NEMA-B motor, 80KW kinetic would consume about 225KW in NG, which would still consume only 84% of the home's incoming flow. So overnight "charging" even a big SUV could still drive that SUV for as many hours as it spent charging. Since most people don't drive SUVs at full motor power all the time, even an hour charging is probably enough to refuel after a day's driving.
In April 2008, NG cost about $7:Gj, while direct electricity cost in February, 2008 about $0.09:KWh, which is about $25:Gj. Even at 40% efficiency converting NG to electricity, that's only $17.5 per Gj.
Another advantage of NG powering homes and cars is that very little energy is consumed/lost in the NG distribution, compared to double-digit (up to 50%) losses in electric distribution. Compared with gasoline powering cars, the distribution of gasoline is very wasteful, with not only tankers driving around to filling stations, but cars driving to (and lining up at) filling stations for every refill. While NG can refill along the car's normal route, at home. Meanwhile, any kind of energy storage at home, whether electric in batteries, or tanks of NG, or raising water to roof tanks, or heating water even into steam, all can let the home user buy more energy input only when prices are lowest, which also takes pressure off the distribution systems.
A NG home charger that is also a fuelcell for a 2-5KW (or more) home should cost under $10,000. That's about as much as a good new water heater that's part of a home (air) heating system, which the fuelcell can also supply to bring its efficiency closer to 100% total. In fact such a fuelcell should really cost $3-5K. Which that $7+ savings per Gj would repay in 9 years or less.
And as efficiencies go up, that 9 years could go down to 2-5 years pretty rapidly.
--
make install -not war
You are absolutely right - these small electric vehicles are, as I said, basically covered motorcycles.
I, too, am afraid to ride a motorcycle because of the safety issues. Fortunately, I only live 8 miles from work, and only on surface streets, so I believe the risk is probably acceptable.
The thing is, however, that pretty soon, people won't have a choice. My 6-cylinder pickup truck gets 16 miles to the gallon, which means it costs me about $4 a day to get to work and back. It costs about $90 to fill up. What will life be like for us when gas costs $8 per gallon?
I think we are going to be seeing a whole lot more motorcycles on the road. It's not going to be an issue of safety, it's going to be an issue of necessity.
Given that, I'll take a covered motorcycle so at least I'm out of the rain.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
For starters, time is usually very precious when such a car is needed.
Huh? Picking up/dropping off a rental car takes about 30 minutes total tops. Less if you plan ahead. I do it all the time. In most cities in the US there is a rental car agency within a few miles of wherever you live.
Such proposals have the consistent flaw of valuing the driver's time at zero.
Time has value to be sure but it's not the only economic consideration. I've rarely met anyone who is so busy however that they find it impossible to rent a car when one would be needed.
I'm sure your needs are different than mine but I drive relatively small cars normally and borrow or rent larger ones as the need arises. I've done the math and for my lifestyle it works out much better economically. A single tank of gas for my VW is around $50 right now. For a large truck it would easily be double that. I can rent a large truck for a whole day for $50-100 so we're basically talking the price differential on one or two tanks of gas. You might have different needs than me and that is fine but it's easy to work out scenarios where renting makes a lot of sense.
Then there's the extra driving and related fuel costs to pick up and drop off the specialty vehicle.
Some rental companies make it a key part of their advertising that they will pick you up. This is a non-issue.
Then there's the enormously higher cost per passenger mile of a rental vehicle
As opposed to the enormously higher operating cost of using a Ford F250 as a daily drive so you can haul all your trailer and gear a few times a year? Yes if you rent every day that would be stupid but no one would do that. Buying an oversized gas guzzler for features you might need once in a blue moon is stupid from an economic perspective not to mention irresponsible.
Then there's the risk of the vendor not having a suitable car when you need
There are about a zillion rental car companies. If one screws up us another. I've done a LOT of vehicle rentals and it is rarely a problem to find a suitable vehicle even for unusual needs.
See my post "On Safety" below.
Barring some revolution in technology, we are all going to be driving much smaller vehicles very soon, out of necessity, regardless of safety. Only the rich will be able to afford to drive armor. The rest of us will be driving covered motorcycles.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
That'd be a great vehicle for the winter.
Winter, you know that "weather" thing with the white stuff and the smooth slippery stuff and all the cold?
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that, since it doesn't snow here. :)
Transportation cost will be yet another reason for people to move to more temperate climates.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
..with a SOLAR-THERMAL GENERATOR. It should be a requirement to own a plug-in car!
People choose to buy big SUV's in a climate crisis.
They are also going to choose to charge their electric car whenever they feel like it.
War as we knew it was obsolete
Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
We already have the ZENN car, but it is not allowed on most Canadian streets, so unless GM can eliminate government bureaucracy we won't be seeing the Volt any time soon.
-AlPhAbEt
Successful Cold Fusion Experiment?
Wikipedia says that Pons & Fleishman's original Cold Fusion experiment was duplicated, way back when, but not universally. Duplication is tough when you're trailblazing and don't have a map. But now this Japanese guy says he can make it happen every time.
Skip the Volt & expensive batteries - I'm buying a cheap Chevy Suburban, replacing the powertrain with an electric motor, and powering it with a Mr. Cold Fusion. Hah!
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
better for the environment ... of a non-renewable resource [oil]
far less
Neither of those is a decent reason in the face of hydrocarbon alternatives.
What's wrong with parent's reasoning?
Alternative hydrocarbons are generally non-renewable fossil fuels. And they are already used - by the utility to generate the electricity, with greater efficiency than we get burning them in a car.
Electric cars are simpler and more reliable than internal combustion cars
We're talking about cars that are both Electric and Internal Combustion. Which is more complex than either a pure electric or a pure ICE. The "simpler" argument works against hybrids. Your argument is invalid here.
A great deal of the power in Eastern Canada is hydro because of Niagra Falls, because the population's not that big (12 Million in Ontario, 8 million in Quebec), and because it's much cooler than the US. (So much less air conditioning in the summer.)
Costs are much higher than production costs, mostly because of massive mismanagement by the utilities years ago that incurred massive debts they haven't yet been able to pay off.
What an excellent idea! THIS is how it's supposed to work--private industry teaming with private industry to respond to consumer demands. Well done GE...well done!
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
The commuter trains into NYC are electric, as is the subway.
The bear of the problem is cars, though, at least today. Amdahl's law and all that.
Asia nigged at him
WTF does that mean? Does that mean Asia called him the enword?
for families with more than 2 children, SUVs are more economical than buying a minivan.
This isn't the 70's anymore. You can't just put 5 kids into a station wagon with 2 sitting in the cargo area. A family with four kids has two options: a 7 seat SUV, or a minivan. The SUV actually gets marginally better mileage. And some SUVs - like my Honda - have more cargo room than a minivan when filled to capacity with passengers.
Sure, Dad might have aspirations of going offroading, but most of the utility of an SUV comes from the increased passenger and cargo space.
If ALL OF AMERICA'S CARS AND TRUCKS WERE CONVERTED TO ELECTRICAL TODAY (not going to happen), THEN:
All in all, the ONLY thing holding us back from electrical is storage. Now that car companies are jumping to li-ion AND possibly some interesting super capacitors, this may all happen over a decade long time frame.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
While I'm glad that GM is finally starting to sound like they actually believe in electric vehicles, I still don't understand why they have been so slow (considering they made a better car already[ev1]) to get there. In 1996 they came out with the ev1 which with panasonic batteries (old school lead acid) could get up to 100 miles per charge, could reach 80mph and could perform better and better as new battery technology came out. while 40 miles per charge isn't terrible, it just isn't that ground breaking. The backup engine is nice but quick charge technology is just as useful (like the tesla uses). The car is too big for a commuter vehicle and the range on electric is barely adequate for commuting. They need a smaller 2 seater for commuters, one that will get more distance and could even be sporty. I understand that money/big oil/greed killed ev1 and it won't come back, but something similar seems like a smart investment...
For the most part you are correct. Coal is base load. But many of them are used as spinning reserves. That is they are running at 1/4 of the load. They can actually come up to speed rather quickly IF they are already running. But in general, natural gas is preferred for the peak generators since they can be off and then be hot quickly.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Get the restaurants - especially the non-Fast-Food-Restaurants - and various stores in on the game so they offer parking spots that have a plug for people to power the cars with. Furthermore, make them 'handicap-like' in that only vehicles that can be charged can park there - i.e. no-non-electric-plug-in such as the current Prius, or any gas-only powered vehicles would be towed. They need not necessarily be the closest (though they likely would be).
This would give the restaurants (and other interested businesses) another line of revenue as well. It _would_ be economically beneficial - utilities sell extra power to the restaurants, who would have extra lines just for it, and then the restaurants would sell to customers.
The big trick would be to get the charge time down to a 30-minute meal time. And if you want to keep off-peak, offer slightly lower rates at different hours - i.e. have them charge a lower rate between 1 PM and 3 PM to get drivers to stop in for a little later lunch, and then again between 8 PM and 10 PM for a later dinner. Keeps the restaurants going, and drives business hours longer. It also would help to smooth out traffic as some would stop at normal hours and others would wait for the cheaper hours.
So yeah...the utilities would need to be involved. But so would a lot of other people - especially small businesses. GM would do well to work with GMAC & the utilities to extend the SMB's loans to get the stuff too. (Yes, I realize GMAC was spun-off.)
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
parking meters that took my ATM card and charged my vehicle batteries while I shopped, ate, or whatever would rock!
We would have a big problem with pulling power off the grid to charge these cars if all charging of electric cars is done during the day at around 4oClock. However there is nothing stopping us from charging at home at night. This is currently the lowest peak time for the power grid. You can charge at home and use public recharging stations during the day for trips beyond the car's battery range.
As is usual whenever electric cars comes up, it's time for some mythbusting.
No, they don't increase pollution and overload the grid; precisely the opposite (more specifically, the only pollutant that goes up is particulate matter, and it's displaced away from population centers. NOx and SOx remain the same, CO2 drops, and CO and VOCs are nearly eliminated; the grid gets to make use of its surplus off-peak capacity and, with smart charging, can eliminate the supply/demand fluctuations that are currently so troublesome).
Yes, they are far more energy efficient than their alternatives.
No, modern batteries don't take forever to charge. The phosphates, titanates, modern spinels, and others can all charge in 5-20 minutes, given sufficient power.
Yes, fast chargers exist. The SAE J1772 standard covers Level 3 charging at hundreds of kilowatts. Yes, chargers as strong as 250kW exist. Yes, there's already a network of 60kW Level 3 chargers in place around Oahu. Install one yourself.
No, the batteries are not toxic. Current li-ions are only mildly toxic, and this only because of their cobalt-based cathode. The phosphates and spinels eliminate this cathode in favor of nontoxic elements.
No, lithium is not running out.
Yes, the batteries last a long time. The phosphates last 7000+ gentle cycles, having only 20% capacity loss after 1000 abusive cycles. The titanates? 20,000 cycles. Accelerated aging tests suggest LG Chem's packs will last 40+ years in typical use.
Yes, both rapid charging stations and EVs make financial sense.
Hmm, did I miss any?
Why must all aquatic villains play the organ?
Actually heat pumps have greater than 100% efficiency, usually called "Coefficient of Performance". This is because the heat energy you are putting into your house doesn't come from the electricity to run the pump but from the "free" heat in the air/ground outside. The pump just moves that energy from the outside in, and usually, 1 J of electricity will move more than 1 J of heat. Otherwise, you'd just convert that 1 J of electricity to heat directly since that would involve a cheaper machine -- a resistor vs. a compressor and large heat exchanger.
That we wouldn't be paying out around 700 Billion dollars a year overseas. That in itself would help to lessen nuclear threats from some countries like Iran, since - Hey - no money, we can't afford it.
..........FULL STOP.
The giant company has read the writing on the wall.
http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/07/01/mercedes-to-kick-fossil-fuels-by-2015/
..........FULL STOP.
Why are people investing in this technology in this way? Surely the most sensible approach would be to come up with a standard for creating batteries for these cars. Then petrol stations could provide fully charged batteries, and take your old ones out for charging, similar to the gas bottle scheme that runs in many places around the world. After the swap, you'd be good for another few hundred kilometers until the next petrol station, just like now. Then there are no problems with distance or people who live in the city without their own garage/power supply.
If their target milage per charge is 40 miles, they have failed before they even started.
40 mpc (miles per charge) will be OK in small towns, I suppose, but in rural communities (where small towns hide) and in urban areas that's a recipe for getting stranded if traffic changes so you have to go around a jam.
I drive 30 miles each way, if I don't do any errands at all!!
Why is it that you can count on GM to devise a way to fail at the simplest tasks?
I understand there are home-brewed plug in hyvbrids that get 100+ miles per gallon; if you could get a chevy like that you would jump all over it, and GM would sell all they could make, if they didn't explode while charging.
Good Luck, American Car Industry, you will need it with these bozos in charge!
There will still be demands on oil. As it is, America does not buy Iranian oil and they do just fine. But I am sure that if we were off of oil for transportation, most other countries would join us.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
If electric cars become popular, why not have electric equipped parking lots? Perhaps employers can put outlets in their lots for employees. Hotels, restaurants, etc. This would make longer trips possible.
If electric cars become popular, why not have electric equipped parking lots? Perhaps employers can put outlets in their lots for employees. Hotels, restaurants, etc. This would make longer trips possible.
Everything possible (including pre-emptive military strikes and all - out war)should be done to prevent non-democratic countries from aquiring nuclear technology, especially ones led by apocalyptic religious fanatics.
Woopty Doo Basil, what does it all mean?!
THe gov just won't have money to spend on thousands of centrifuges, etc. Just look at Africa - not many nuclear programs there. Why - too damned poor.
Besides - without any special interest for the USA to protect in the mid east (oil access), more than likely we will pull out. That's probably one of the main reasons why we are disliked over there - a heavy troop presence.
..........FULL STOP.
I wonder how traffic affects those relative MPG ratings? If I had to guess, I'd say that if your say, 20 mile commute to work in the morning takes you 45-60 minutes, then the difference between a prius and a civic gets even more dramatic. I suspect that in stop and go traffic, the hybrid is running on battery a lot of the time, where the regular ICE is idling and burning a non-zero amount of gas?
Also, those numbers of 75,000 miles or 15,000 miles per year (24,000 km) seem a bit on the low end to me. I'm lucky enough to be able to walk to work at my current job, but last time I had a car for commuting (3 or 4 years back) I was putting more like 20K-25K miles per year on my car.
Oh, and, I'm in Canada, where the price of gas is just shy of six bucks a gallon. Most of europe is pushing 8 bucks a gallon. So, y'know, it depends.
The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
I see quite a few intelligent posts. How about one dealing human nature. Take your common idiot for instance. How will you address the following: 1. He leaves his radio or lights on at work. Cant run to the station and grab a gallon of fuel to get him started. 2. Car enthusiasts that will attempt to "Home Modify" to get more power etc... Someone is going to get hurt. 3. The family trip where you run out of juice on the highway in grid lock, creating more grid lock. 4. The lazy people who will inevitably charge at any time of they day. I believe California has power issues presently with out a few million cars plugged in. 5. There is presently already a problem with Cell phone batteries being made and sold on the black market blowing up or catching on fire. Do you want people seeking cheaper batteries for their car parked next to you or in your driveway? 6. Nothing is fool proof but when you turn off an internal combustion engine it is off. When you turn off an electric car, all the wires are still live. You are not seeing these issues presently because they are somewhat expensive and pricey. When the price point drops and the Idiots start to buy them, that's when the real issues will surface.