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Tesla Motors Is Delivering Cars
jamie found the news that Tesla Motors is delivering roadsters in California. (We've been following developments on the Tesla front for a couple of years now.) According to a letter from the CEO, "9 production Roadsters have arrived in California, another 3 arrive this weekend, and they will keep arriving at the rate of 4 per week... In fact, currently there are 27 Roadsters in various stages of assembly." The early owners must be proud, but there could be complications.
Erm, the title has an error.
America, Home of the Brave.
The summary's second link is to http://tech.slashdot.org/hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/05/151234
I don't think that will work. :)
..until it's ion-propelled, RADAR navigated, coming complete with a charged particle beam and a death ray as standard safety features against enemy vehicles (eg: anyone who dares to race you at the traffic lights).
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
I'm sorry, did the "editor" actually do any "editing" on this write-up before posting it? I THINK NOT.
A blue Tesla was parked on Homer Ave in downtown Palo Alto on Sunday.
Anybody want to fess up to owning it?
now sergey and larry and elon have some toys to play with
Great, they are being delivered.
Now, only if other people besides
the "elite" can get their names on
a list to be eligible to buy one of
these things at some distant time
in the future for a price less than
that teaser price of $100k.
I would love to be a:
Signed-Up-Future-Tesla-Owner
but they will have to get their act
in gear (all pun intended) to become
viable before another...
Who Killed the Electric Car?
-AI
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
The summary has it right, the caption does not. I was a little confused when I read that: "Telsa motors. Mmh. Maybe competition for Tesla motors or something."
Despite any flaws, I think they're an absolute breakthrough and a sign of things to come in the next decade.
Not only do they have performance, but they also go the distance and I believe they're also astoundingly cheap. If I had a spare $100,000 laying around and they were shipping to Australia, I'd buy one in a heartbeat!
The price of carbon fibre is declining faster than predicted and battery production is ramping up in line with Toyota's ramp-up of hybrid powertain cars and GM's announcement to mass-produce an electric car so hopefully the price of batteries will come down a lot as well.
Things are definitely looking good. Now we just need to start building a bunch of nuclear power plants so they'll be ready in time for when the plug-in hybrids and pure-electric vehicles hit critical mass.
I'll believe it when they ship... wait this isn't how vaporware is supposed to work.
Next thing you know they'll be telling me that these solar panel thingys are real too.
About those alleged "Complications" ... well yes sure, if you run out of stored power then you're in trouble. However, this isn't exclusive to electric cars, but applies similarly to liquid-fueled vehicles. If you set out on a voyage of 500 miles with only 200 miles of gasoline and you can't find anywhere to refuel, then you're in trouble too. Fortunately, most people understand power and refueling constraints and know how to plan ahead.
Admittedly, electrical recharging infrastructure is almost non-existent at the moment. However, this isn't a total disaster nor an unforseen "Complication". It's thoroughly forseen, so any early adopter who can add and subtract won't be travelling further than the stored energy allows, minus a safety margin since nobody likes getting stuck. In many cases, it'll be a second car anyway, mainly for short hops around the local area and short office commutes.
But let's look at the worst case scenario as well. When the power runs out in between recharge points, will it be a total disaster? Well, it certainly will be a big annoyance, but that's where the recovery services come in. All it takes is a phone call and some waiting in the comfort of your car while you sulk at your arithmetic incompetence, but soon your vehicle will be sitting snugly on the back of the recovery truck, and remedial transport sorted out. This is normal today in the event of breakdowns, and it will be just as normal when cars go electric, both for breakdowns and for recharging mishaps. (The vehicle recovery industry will certainly boom for a few decades, until vehicle recharging infrastructure is widespread.)
So while "Complications" will exist in the short term, they're not exceptional ones. We already have similar issues today, and solutions to them as well. It's just a matter of degree. For the next few years, trips in EVs will have to be a fair bit shorter on average. We can cope with that.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
OK OK OK OK OK! WE GET IT! There is a fracking spelling error in the fracking title! Get a fracking life already, Miss Fracking Spelling Teacher! Jesus Sweet Fracking CHRIST!
I only hope that they are taking care not just about the carbon that those (nice indeed) cars will blow in the atmosphere, but also about the carbon (as well as other pollutants) their farms and their suppliers farms will add.
As currently envisioned, the Tesla Roadster is SO FAR out of my reach at $109k, with an additional $55k to lock in your delivery date. oy! Not knowing much more about the Tesla than "it's an electric sports car" i'm wondering how the second/third generation models are envisioned to ring up $$-wise. Is their manufacturing process projected become a production line or will the cars "always" be assembled by a team of craftsmen (i.e. more like a chevy or a ferrari?). Will there be compromises in the materials schedule so as to lower the price? Are these questions best asked 5 years from now? Oh ya -- is anyone here on The List?
It looks like the thing that has largely fixed the EV issue is the laptop computer/mobile phone - which has justified the research effort into lithium batteries.
From a volume point of view in the short term the manufacturer to watch is Mitsubishi: they have a joint venture factory with Yuasa, and last week they delivered a test sample EV to a Japanese police force (they already have them with Tokyo utilities.) The Miev may not be as large and fast as the Tesla, but it is likely actually to be affordable. $100000 will only appeal to the rich who want a status symbol, as the payback compared to (say) a Mercedes Bluemotion clean Diesel will be forever. But a $30000 commuter vehicle may well make economic sense. I could justify one right now if oil reaches $200/barrel.
In fact, there are reports that sales of the EVs currently available are very poor, presumably because people who might have bought one as a third car are spending the money on new, efficient vehicles which will show a real cost saving in a sensible payback period.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
ObCarAnalogy: It's like if someone made a really trendy sportscar, but it was also run on electricity!
In the current combustion engine, running out on the road (rare, but it happens when you try to squeeze that extra few miles before refueling) meant calling up your buddy or AAA for a quick gallon of gas to get you on your way to the nearest filling station. I can't imagine any "instant battery" systems exist for this type of situation and I doubt your nearest service station has a "recharge" plug for your car. If they did, would it be compatible? Yes yes, I know the infrastructure is non-existent yet. But I hope everyone has the foresight to create a unified universal charging "plug." Does the tesla charge using those EV charging stations that you might see every now and then? I guess if you have 100k for this car you probably wouldn't flinch at having it towed to your house.
I've always wondered (and not really seen stated anywhere) how an electric vehicle's performance varies from the point of being fully charged to fully flat. i.e. does the performance (speed, acceleration, etc.) gradually get worse as the car's charge dwindles or does it suddenly just stop when the batteries are exhausted? A petrol or diesel car performs just as well (if not better due to less weight) when the tank is almost empty. Does a Tesla that has only 5 miles worth of charge left perform like a milk-float?
In fact they don't like any form of power generation.
nuclear = [insert glowing green fluffy sheep horror stories]
fossil = [insert global meltdown story]
wind power = [insert migrating insert birds killed by blades sob fest] or [blot on lovely landscape rant]
tidal power = [insert moan about marsh habitat of less spotted wading snot gobler flooded]
Solar power = [insert some fucking rare tortoise issue]
hydro = [insert whinge about flooded valleys/woodlands/displace peasents etc etc]
You just can't win with this brainless hippies.
Take a portable generator and some liters of gas.
;-)
Use the generator to recharge the car in case the batteries run out of juice.
A sort of hybrid card
Anyway , come on , who runs out of fuel these days? read the friggin gauge! Plus if you did you could damage some modern fuel systems so you wouldn't be restarting your piston engine car either.
So now that we all want to switch to an electric car, I have to ask, how much more efficient is an electric car and also, roughly how much would one reduce my CO2 output?
It seems to me that we're sweeping the vehicle exhaust issue under the carpet by moving it to the power station. Sure there are exceptions, but most power stations still burn fossil fuels so these cars still contributes to warming up the planet.
this post is now diamonds!
One simple solution: Built-in tesla attack coil.
The SUV wouldn't stand a chance.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
I can't imagine any "instant battery" systems exist for this type of situation
An "Instant Battery" is also called a generator. Honda makes tiny little ones that weigh about as much as a toddler, or perhaps as heavy as a fat feline house-cat. Strap a one quart gas can to it and an extension cord and you're set.
I've been thinking about those trailer hitch shelf devices that people stick on the back of their obese SUVs... I wonder if you could stick a trailer hitch on a Tesla, then one of those "shelves" and strap a generator to the shelf plugged into the charger and basically drive forever in "hybrid mode"
I doubt your nearest service station has a "recharge" plug for your car. If they did, would it be compatible?
It has a 110V onboard charger for this use. If you can plug in a floor lamp, tv, or a PC, you can probably figure out how to plug in the charger.
Yes yes, I know the infrastructure is non-existent yet.
Yes, always entertaining to make fun of the local electric utility, but seriously they more or less do a good job.
But I hope everyone has the foresight to create a unified universal charging "plug."
Yeah we got this 110V AC system figured out pretty well after a century or so of use. Even have those new fangled GFCI outlets for the past couple decades. Of course those Europeans insist on using 220V. At least the Japaneese use a civilized 110V AC system like us, and since most innovation seems to come from Japan, that is convenient for the US.
I guess if you have 100k for this car you probably wouldn't flinch at having it towed to your house.
If you have that kind of money, your butler will pick you up in your personal helicopter, or perhaps one of the paparazzi whom follow you everywhere will help you out in exchange for some pix. It's just not an issue dude. Besides rich people don't sit on their behind for enough hours to drain the battery anyway, if it's 100 miles away just hop in the learjet or helicopter and zoom over there in 5 minutes, not sit in traffic.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
we have met the enemy, and he is us;-}
the pp is obviously a product of our marxist-infiltrated public school system, parroting the party line of blaming business, when in reality (also obviously foreign to the aptly-named p-red;-) people demanded gas-guzzlers...
some-1 mentioned the edsel: proof-positive that the evil car marketeers can make us buy things we don't want or need;-}
So when are we going to see "normal" and "diesel" electricity? I mean the electricity corps need to squeeze more money out of the consumer, right?
The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
proof-positive that the evil car marketeers can make us buy things we don't want or need;-}
I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic since the Edsel didn't sell enough to get off the ground. I know people like you. It is true, even paranoiacs have enemies. Usually the rest of us just get pissed off at the "They're out to get me" BS.
TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
The charging plug has been standardized. Its likely one of the reasons why the EV-1 was killed off. GM used an inductive paddle style charger "plug", while the standard that was eventually agreed on uses a more traditional conductive charger. Its a moot point though since the car will have the option to charge on standard household 120V outlets (albeit at slower charging rates).
Of course those Europeans insist on using 220V.
You get double the power for the same current that way. 20 amp power outlets are pretty common in Australia for industrial applications. At 250V thats 5000 watts for charging with no new interface required.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
If they came with that ability, I would find a way to come up with the $100k+.
I wonder if you could stick a trailer hitch on a Tesla, then one of those "shelves" and strap a generator to the shelf plugged into the charger and basically drive forever in "hybrid mode"
That's called a "plug-in hybrid". The propulsion is 100% electric, but when the battery gets low, an internal-combustion generator kicks in. I know there are some experimental/home-made ones on the road right now, and some manufacturers (Toyota, maybe others) are actively developing them.
You could say the same for any roadster.
which is totally what she said
to see these cars "broke down" on the side of the road because their $60,000 laptop battery is suffering from the lithium ion aging effect, and the batteries died halfway into their trip. If the batteries in these cars last as long as my laptop batteries have, the owners are in for some serious disappointment.
Death is life's great reward. R. Hoek
Because no matter what alternative to power generation comes up , you'll get some hemp wearing yoghurt knitter coming up with one of the above complaints.
then dont fuckin make use of the socialist retirement, minimum wage, weekly working hours, weekly holidays, yearly vacation days concepts. let go of those rights.
Read radical news here
How is this number significant? It's not an internal combustion engine, so you can't compare that sort of thing to anything people are used to. I bet it won't make the sort of npis
As for the 256mpg figure, is that in terms of equivalent CO2 from the power plant? That would depend on the type of power generation. If you can power it from solar or wind then that's great, but I suspect that for most people it's likely to be coal.
No use, I'm afraid.
One of those little electric generators will produce, maybe, one or two kilowatts. Unfortunately the Tesla's engine consumes about two hundred kilowatts. Even allowing for driving very slowly to make the most efficient use of the energy, you're simply not going to be able to get enough charge into the car's battery in a reasonable enough time to be useful.
(People don't realise it because they measure car engine powers in horsepower and electrical engine powers in kilowatts, but car engines are ludicrously powerful. My crappy 1200cc Ford Fiesta produces enough power to run my entire house with all the heating turned on four times over. Cars use phenomenal amounts of power, and there's a reason why they're not powered by the kind of tiny lawnmower engine that you get in those generators...)
Of course those Europeans insist on using 220V.
Actually it's 230V +/-10%. Nicely fudged to accommodate the original 220V and 240V standards across the continent. http://users.metro2000.net/~purwinc/seec2_2.htm
Didn't Boeing say they won't be testing carbon fiber wings to the point of failure because they'd need to call in the hazmat team? Is this the same type of problem we'll see when carbon fiber vehicles crash? I'm just asking.
As the sleek new sports car wound its way up the tortuous road, Henri
thought back to the torture he had received ten minutes ago. 'Ah, air
conditioning', he thought as he aimed the vents toward the numerous whip
marks on his legs, chest, and groinal area.
thanks to jack h
So, as a resident of Montreal, I have to ask, does anyone know how well electric cars are supposed to fare in cold-weather conditions? How about hybrids?
Could it perhaps be that the infestation of Earth with this parasitic species called "humans" is bad for everything else?
VOICE (O.S.): Just what exactly do you think you're doing?
The Orkin Man turns around. EDGAR stands in the doorway to the garage,
staring at him disdainfully.
ORKIN MAN (shrugs): Takin' care of your pest problem.
EDGAR: "Pest" problem? "Pest?"
ORKIN MAN: Yeah. You got a hell of an infestation.
Edgar advances on him, slowly.
EDGAR: You know, I have noticed an infestation here. Everywhere I look, in fact. Nothing but undeveloped, unevolved, barely conscious pond scum. So convinced of their own superiority as they scurry about their short, pointless lives.
ORKIN MAN: Well -- yeah. Don't you want to get rid of'em?
EDGAR: Oh... In the worst way.
Edgar lashes out quickly, jerking the mask off the Orkin Man's face with
one hand --
-- and shoving the gas hose down his throat with the other.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Edison. First AC and now this.
Winkey shortcut mapping for 64bit windows. WinKeyPlus
Nah...just because you have a patent issued doesn't mean it is possible to produce the item effectively OR that people even want to buy it.
However by making the design public it might help you create something even better.
Remember, under patent law, you can patent an improvement upon a device. Therefore if Big Oil owns a patent on a 500 MPG engine, you should improve the design, make a 501 mpg engine and NOT sell out to the oil companies.
You're confusing acceleration with cruise and confusing power vs energy and confusing full charge with "enough to get to the nearest commercial AC outlet"
Yes an average car "needs" hundreds of KW to go 0-60 in a couple heartbeats. But at cruise on a highway all you need is a couple hp. Even hill climbing doesn't require much electrical power, think of the tiny motors running a modern elevator. A typical car needs maybe a hp or so at normal (non-autobahn) cruise speeds. Notice your accelerator foot barely above idle on the highway... Half the time my foots off the gas completely.
The power and energy confusion relates to above. Sure when you floor it it draws 200 KW but it 4 seconds you get a speeding ticket. At cruising speed you may only need 1 KW to keep going. Perhaps in a desert the nearest gas station is 10 miles away. So worst case scenario is your tiny generator pumps in a KW for twenty minutes giving you around 15 "KW-minutes" (due to conversion losses, etc) and then you drain it out driving to the AC outlet consuming a bit more than 10 "KW-minutes"
The final confusion is no need to fill the battery completely to drive another 200 miles, you only need enough to get off the highway and to a power outlet.
Also try flooring your fiesta for more than one minute, it'll overheat and explode. Now marine, aircraft, and diesel train engines are designed to run full throttle forever. It's always amusing to compare a 1000 HP F1 racing engine that only survives 500 miles and I could wrap by arms around it, with a 1000 HP train engine that is literally roughly the size of a garden shed...
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Was it really necessary to include a link to some webcomic with less art than xkcd and less funny than User Friendly?
I mean, really?
That's called a "plug-in hybrid". The propulsion is 100% electric, but when the battery gets low, an internal-combustion generator kicks in. I know there are some experimental/home-made ones on the road right now, and some manufacturers (Toyota, maybe others) are actively developing them.
Yes I know, which makes my idea interesting. No need for a multinational multibillion dollar development effort, just hold my beer while I strap down the "off the shelf" generator on to the "off the shelf" "hitch mounted shelf" and plug in the extension cord to the onboard charger that was a factory option (or is it a standard "option" for the Tesla now, don't know).
Probably the biggest problem with my high tech redneck approach to a plug in hybrid is when it rains, which is why the Toyota guys are paid the big bucks to "develop" this.
Also there are issues with optimizing the charge cycles, and if you know the generator will always operate at a fixed high load you can optimize it's engine for efficiency. And it would be cool to have the generator automatically start and stop itself.
But it is an amazingly simple way to get something like a plug in hybrid to sort of work, more or less.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
...you could have impressed us all with your leet lock picking skills and a youtube video! Epic Fail!
Sorry about that everyone...The HVAC is broken at my office in Georgia in July.
I am still figuring out how Big Oil and the CIA did it so I was distracted from the general consiracies...please accept my apologies!
Of course those Europeans insist on using 220V.
You get double the power for the same current that way. 20 amp power outlets are pretty common in Australia for industrial applications. At 250V thats 5000 watts for charging with no new interface required.
Yes but the Japanese, whom are the source of all new technology, do not use that household voltage, so I assume EVs will be rolled out to 110V countries first.
Also gas pumps and gas tanks are more or less worldwide compatible.
Importing IC cars is mostly an exercise in import duties and sales taxes and excise taxes and registration hassles and non-technical and non-scientific environmental regulations. etc. On the other hand, importing EVs is going to take at least a new power plug and at worst a completely new battery charger. It may actually take technical skill to import an EV.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
That solves the range problem now until batteries get better, especially for any theoretical cheaper all electrics. They need to get the 50 mile range much cheaper commuter cars out there now, then the generator trailer option for trips-plus handy to have said generator around the house. And the generator could be run on home made biodiesel for that matter.
This is a great breakthrough. Sure I can't afford one right now. 100k is way to much for me. But what is going to happen is that the people paying 100k are going to want more mileage from their cars. So these cars will improve on their 220 miles per charge. My Mercury Sable gets about 260 miles per tank (if not squeezing every drop from it, I can probably go 300 if I run til the fumes run out). So if they can up the miles per charge to 260 or more then it becomes a viable replacement (even at 220 I think I would like to try one). The money that is being paid right now will go towards more R&D and as Toyota and the other big guys dump billions into battery tech we will start to see cheaper and cheaper electric cars. I expect that it will be 7-10 years before these fully electric cars are mainstream and affordable to the person wanting to pay no more than $20,000 to $25,000 for a new car.
You can only start it during a severe thunderstorm on a remote mountaintop somewhere in Transylvania.
When it starts, you get this strange compulsion to maniacally yell, "It's ALIVE!!, It's ALIVE!!!".
You know what they say about opinions. They're all fabulous!
Do you just make things up? Carbon fiber shot up in price three years ago and hasn't declined since. Any new/ existing facilities haven't really made much of a dent in producing more of the stuff to outpace demand increases.
The type of batteries in the Tesla have been mass produced for years... theyre the ones in laptops. All data points to batteries not getting any cheaper any time soon. The only reason why these cars will get cheaper over time is because the R&D in getting the batteries in a reliable configuration will slowly be absorbed in people actually buying these things. Also, the profit margin on hype begins to decline as more of these are put into market.
You have a good suggestion, but I think it would pose complications too. For example, say a vehicle has a worn out or defective battery that barely holds a charge? A less than honest driver could "unload" the bad battery, getting a free upgrade to a good one, just by dropping by the "charging station".
Conversely, the recipient of the dud battery would be inconvenienced, angered, and might even go as far as filing a suit against the charging station - claiming they owe him/her a new battery.
(Granted, your proposal of having microprocessors on the batteries would *theoretically* offer a solution to this dilemma. A station could refuse to swap a battery that was "out of spec" without paying a fee. But how long do you think it'd be before someone programs false values into the chip to cheat the system? We do it now with ink cartridge refills for printers as a matter of course!
If you can cruise at 2hp you're driving a moped, and an efficient one at that. For an American car with a "normal" drag coefficient, cruising at 65mph requires around 20–30kw (~25–40hp). And the reason an elevator can use such a small motor is because it has a counterweight balancing the load.
The Tesla is very lightweight, and has a low drag coefficient, so I'd expect it to use as little as 10kw (~12–15hp) cruising at 65mph. Which is still very good, on par with a small riding mower or dirt bike, but you sure won't find a 10KW generator the size of a house cat.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
Well, if you drive a wedge backwards, you're not going to get the same 'top speed' as going forwards. ;)
That said, My mom's old Volvo 66 could do that, due to its Variomatic gearbox. I don't think she ever tried it, though. :D
"Good news, everyone!"
Tesla has to get out now. They are simply one of the better marketed names in this upcoming industry. If anything the cars coming down the road in the next year or two (pun, I know) will make this car look amateurish.
Other than the chassis and frame this is not a great example of the technology. The chassis and frame were done by an established company and hence this confined the ability to do something different.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
What's the point of these things if they run off the grid? The grid is dirty power. These cars increase load on the grid thus increasing dirty power usage.
These things are nothing but spending large sums of money to feel like your making a different. They're not.
I find being offended by me offensive.
think bigger.
Nobody "has" a battery.
You pay the energy, plus a "recharge fee" (which will depend on battery type, etc).
Maybe a "new battery surcharge" if you really want a brand new one.
The batteries will circulate the system until they are no longer useable, at which time they will be written off already.
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
Hmm,
I'm surprised folks are missing one important point about this car. Let's say you're rich and you want to buy a supercar. Most gas powered supercars use huge amounts of gas. After all they're not designed to save fuel. They're designed to go fast. This thing is an electric and generally very efficient so right away you've helped the environment there by not burning huge amounts of gas. At $100,000 the price is cheaper than most high end sports cars and being rare that will look good too. Sure it doesn't have much range but how often do you take your car on cross-country trips. Hell if you're rich, how often would you seriously want to spend hours driving across country versus taking a plane? It's range is great for most normal commutes in the city. It's also very likely highly reliable too being that it has very few parts. So yes, this isn't your common man's car but for the rich or enthusiast this seems like a good idea.
"let go of those rights"
You didn't list any rights. Don't think I disagree with your point, but nothing you listed is a right.
A lot of the comments here resemble the same kind of skeptical remarks that were made when the first automobiles came out. They were outrageously expensive. They got flat tires constantly. You almost needed to keep a team of horses on retainer to drag the thing home after one of the innumerable breakdowns. Et cetera. Et cetera.
No new technology leaps full-blown into existence without glitches, screw-ups and mistakes (yes, I know about the 100-year-old electrics, but a lot has changed). They're part of the territory, especially where a complete changeover in something as basic as personal transportation is concerned. What's needed is the vision and will to change, and the guts to persevere through inevitable problems to something that works. That's what seems to be missing these days.
I wonder what the smog situation would look like in a city where most two-car families included an electric for local jaunts and basic running around, and a regular car for longer trips? I recall seeing many parking lots with electrical outlets available at each space for block heaters, back when cold weather presented a starting problem for regular cars. Perhaps they might appear again to serve next-generation electrics. I have no idea what shape the actual solutions will take, but I'm quite confident that solutions would be found, once a decision is made to move away from gasoline-powered vehicles.
I'm certain of one thing: as long as those with a vested interest in the status quo are allowed to present every mistake as a disaster, every bump in the road as an insurmountable mountain, nothing will be accomplished.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Don't take that argument much further, since Japan actually uses 100V instead of the 115-120V of the United States.
Most devices are designed to tolerate anything from 90-125V and work in both places, but claims like "At least the Japaneese use a civilized 110V AC system like us" look silly since they're patently false.
Posted anonymously since I moderated in this discussion an hour or so ago. Sorry, but I won't remember to visit this again to see your reply.
This roadster is missing a gas powered generator for the times that you need to go over 220 miles.
Of course if you're paying $90k for an electric car I'd hope that you have other gas powered cars for destinations out of range.
That is why I consider this thing a toy.
The Volt looks promising, it is all electric as long as you stay under a certain range and plug it in every night but will kick on a generator when the battery is too low.
But your nonchalance regarding rights vs. "perks" is scary. You shouldn't be so cavalier when discussing them, the difference is important.
Just imagine what will happen when a soccer mom runs over this thing with an SUV (or someone else with any other proper size car)! Aboslute deathtrap!
Yeah, because when the SUV runs over it (far more likely to be one tire rather than both), it's already top-heavy design will cause it to start rolling over like a fucking out of control rock tumbler. And not only is she going to be blended, the unfortunate Tesla driver is going to be smushed!
I agree, SUVs sure are deathtraps. For everyone on the road!
The enemies of Democracy are
Every other electric or hybrid till now is just plain fugly....Prius for example, I rest my case.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Debunked.
Unfortunately the Tesla's engine consumes about two hundred kilowatts.
that's the PEAK running-at-red-line power. at normal speeds, it's significantly less, into the single-digit KW, abou 5KW @ 65mph, IIRC, and a bit less at lower speeds.
I can find a 5500W portable diesel generator without much trouble or a 15KW trailer-mounted generator. The latter is not exactly cheap at $11,000, but if you've got money to buy one of these cars, that much shouldn't be a problem.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
that your reply was perfect in demonstrating the OPs case don't you.
That point is, you can't make all people happy but we are nearly stuck simply because with the current court system we might actually have to.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I own an LS based engine. Let me tell you, I stuff my foot in it daily. The cars got 120,000 mi of this kind of driving. The engine performs almost as perfect as day 1. The only maintenance it gets is synthetic oil changes. 5-30 all the time. (in fact, I slid through a roundabout destroying a Mustang GT convertable of the same year this AM)
Lets not forget too though, that we blow a metric shitload of energy out the tailpipe in the form of heat. Making that heat useful by turning some sort of thermal powered device. A steam alternator + electric waterpump & AC could give us back over 20 hp + better fuel economy, less drag on the engine, and lower idling speed.
Lets also not forget about the story of the six stroke engine. The one that uses water in the 5th stroke to cool the cylinder about doubled the power & economy of a standard 4 stroke engine. And it was carbeurated.
We are on the cusp of a revolution w/ engine tech. We are unfortunately also on the cusp of peak oil. How will we know when we hit peak oil? The day we drill ANWR & American coasts we'll have hit peak. We're about 8 years out though I think.
8 years is not that long, but of course, I am pulling a number from where usually only 2's come from.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Telling someone to get a life while using the word 'frack' in the very same sentence. Hilarious.
How are they going to get Joe/Jane Average to remember that its T-E-S-L-A and not T-E-L-S-A, which is the way I hear 90% of the people pronounce it (on those rare occasions that Nikolai manages to come up in conversations)?
English speakers in NA, do very poorly with anything that seems remotely foreign in spelling or pronunciation, and mostly seem non-motivated to try to get it even remotely correct
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
> There's just no way that there's going to be a 1MW charger (1000V @ 1000A) handy (my whole house can only supply 32kW)
You can deliver energy to your car at home at any rate you like. Only the average power over 24h is limited by your mains supply rating and house wiring, not the instantaneous power. What you can't do is supply higher powers continuously over a 24 hour period, but only for a short burst. Eg. charge up your garage ultracapacitor over 24 hours at 32kW, then connect up the car and squirt the energy over to it at 1MW for 45 minutes through really fat bus bars.
This is bound to be the way it'll be done eventually (assuming that ultracaps become stable and mainstream), since people don't want long charging periods. Instead, your home ultracap in the garage or driveway will charge up your car ultracap at megawatts rate for a short period each day, and then the car ultracap will charge up your car battery more slowly, if it can't run your car directly for some reason. What your 32kW-continuous rating *does* limit is the total amount of energy your car can store each day (and hence your trip lengths), but that's a separate matter from the charging wattage.
Blasting electrical energy across at 1MW from a low-rated mains supply is not a particularly hard problem. The difficulty is in making a temporary storage unit that can take it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
The reason why you don't have to keep your foot on the accelerator is that the engine management computer (or, more likely, a shaped cam in the carburettor) is automatically feeding in enough fuel to keep the engine happy. There's a reason why it's eating a gallon of petrol every 30 miles or so. And if your car consumes 1kW at cruising speed, you're either cruising at walking speed or riding a scooter --- 20 or 30kW is rather more realistic...
Because, as with people, businesses won't change their (bad) habits until they experience an "STE": Sudden Traumatic Event. Hopefully, Tesla will continue to be a recoil-inducing shocker and strip some of the valence off the oil companies...
OTOH, i don't drive, so if the price of gas goes past $4.91 (here, in SF, it's around $4.91 to $4.98 for Premium...) it may or already did trigger increase in MUNI transit fares for riders, but hopefully, it'll change habits of lots of people. In case anyone hasn't notice, it seems the Bay Bridge traffic is down dramatically... people SEEM to be commuting now.
Sadly, it appears many of the lettered commuter buses don't seem too packed, at least not when I see them drive past me as I'm walking in the evening. If higher prices put even MORE people on the buses, GREAT.
Go, Tesla, GO!
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
The most used Lithium Ion chemistry uses LiCoO2 cathodes. Disadvantages:
- Price (Cobalt is relatively rare and expensive). Acceptable for a notebook, not so good for a car that needs 500 times the capacity.
- Aging (will lose capacity even if unused, so you might have to buy new batteries halfway through the life of your car).
- can blow up when overheating or due to faults in manufacturing, see Sony laptop batteries...
Now there are some very interesting new developments in Lithium Ion technology, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion#Improvements_to_Lithium_Ion_Battery_Technology
I guess one or more of those will end up making large Lithium Ion batteries a lot more attractive than NiMH. Right now some companies use these for battery tools and scooters (Segway), but the big breakthrough is yet to come.
C - the footgun of programming languages
It seems to work ok with kegs and propane tanks... If nothing else, you'd have to keep it within the same company. Batteries are still universal, but you pay a deposit and can only do a 1-to-1 swap from the same battery company. So I pay a deposit to Chevron and as long as I keep swapping out Chevron batteries I can still ride off my original deposit.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
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This is why I propose the next deployed all electric or plugin/hybrid (burning hydrogen?) should be a heavy duty all-wheel-drive pickup truck.
Maybe something like THIS
289 kW (387 hp) peak power (more powerful than my current gasoline powered pickup truck).
Yummy!
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
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Gets me to work and back for 5cents a charge. Takes 20 minutes, regular bike takes 40 and a car takes about 40 with added parking costs. Haven't had a regular bike catch me for a few months now...
Here's where I bought the parts to convert my existing cheapo mountain bike: www.ebikes.ca
We imagine pulling into a filling station and attaching a cable to our car and filling the battery; the problem is that you need to either (a) deal with dangerously high currents or (b) deal with dangerously high voltage.
Yeah, and when you're turning the key in your car you're connecting a circuit that runs at > 400V, but nobody gets hurt. There are plenty of connectors and circuits that can be made tamperproof and safe.
Think of this in Matrix terms: "There Is No Filling Station." When you're at work, or at the movies, you just plug in your car and it tops off. Simple electronic transactions to handle payment. A service industry would spring up to maintain this equipment so the movie theatre only needs sign a lease agreement and gets an additional revenue source. Heck, "free ticket with a 150,000 Joule charge" (I have no idea what the right number is).
Now, if you want to put a robotic arm in the charging post so nobody has to get their hands dirty, go for it.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
I saw that too (bout 3 min after I friggin posted!), I know that it's coming, but I really did'nt think it'd be this soon.
Oh well, time to move to Montana, and live off the land.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Yes but the Japanese, whom are the source of all new technology,
Grammar lesson time.
You are using a relative clause.
The modified noun is "The Japanese".
They are the subject of the verb 'are'.
The pronoun used for them should be in the nominative/subjective case; 'who'.
'Whom' should only be used as an object.
Yes but the Japanese, who are the source of all new technology, ...
The parent mentions flaws and the article mentions "powertrain 1.5."
The development of the Tesla wasn't quite smooth sailing. They're asking for a lot of performance out of a relatively lightweight power supply and motor. At some point in the last year or so, Tesla ran into some durability problems with their two speed transmission. They were never clear about what the problem was, but it became apparent when they started talking about changes.
They switched from a 2-speed transmission to a single speed. Obviously, this takes them outside the ideal operating ranges of the motor at the high and low ends of the rated performance (115 and 0 mph respectively). It also meant a redesign of a major component, which is probably a significant part of the delay of these vehicles that were supposed to be shipping late last year.
What they have shared, however, is that they plan to build vehicles with the 2 speed transmission and more restrictive motor governing (read: lower performance than originally advertised) while they finish development on the single speed transmission. At that point, they'll change over to the single speed in the factory and refit the vehicles already in customer hands at no extra charge.
To match the original performance promises, they changed to a higher-rated motor controller, and made a few other changes in the electronics. A side benefit they are claiming to have achieved is slightly higher efficiency from better electronics, although the range on an EPA test cycle is still a little bit below what they initially planned to achieve and were touting two years ago (235 miles on a full charge, IIRC).
Overall, an exciting sports car, but I'll hold back from calling it a breakthrough until I start to see the same technology applied to lower performance, more practical cars that fit the budgets of ordinary people. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing the Stig take it around the track on Top Gear.
Tesla article on Powertrain 1.5
PS - the Tesla Roadster uses Lithium batteries, not NiMH like the Prius or Civic hybrid, so others ramping up production doesn't directly affect costs for Tesla.
Your contention that development ceased on nuclear plants is incorrect. The plants today are NOTHING like 3mile island or the plants of old. There have been wide and vast improvements in process design and control (not only in Nuclear, either). From the safety systems to the steam process -- all of it is better understood today than it has ever been. The materials, the instrumentation, the valves, the control systems. All of it has seen improvement over the last 20 years. Have you ever actually been inside a modern plant of anykind? I have. My livelihood depends on it.
There are lots of firms who have been and are very active in this space. They haven't been sitting around twiddling their thumbs. They, in fact, have designs sitting on the shelf that can be pulled out and worked on at any moment. I am certain all of them stand ready to help whoever wants to build a nuclear power plant.
It is not a lack of technical know-how that prevents us from using nuclear plants. It's a lack of will that does it for us. We have plenty of engineering brain power to get it done. PLENTY. We're just a bunch of pussies about it.
Just make areas of roadway which when driven on inductively charge the vehicle. Kind of like the no stopping EZ-Pass. They could call it EZ-Charge
The problem BOTH of you have here is that the real life durability of the newer battery chemistries is not known yet. Batteries are the things that will make or break the economics of electric cars.
If they are as good as Rei claims he wins the argument, because electric motors are mature technology and VERY low-maintenance. But if they fail after 5 years and you have to pay $10,000 for a new pack... ouch, I'd be sorry for the one who bought the car.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Been all over this story with nary a mention of TFA.
Between the announcement of this Tesla pure EV shipping and VW's announcement of their upcoming 235mpg (internal combustion!) one-seater, I'm hoping these are omens of a wave of positive change coming to the auto industry! :-)
It's been stagnant at least since the oil crises of the 70's. (That's when we got out first crop of remotely energy efficient cars...several outperfomed the "economy cars" that are considered "new" today and which - even relatively - cost a lot more.) Harumph.
-Matt
Sooo
how far a ford GT40 can take you with a full deposit? 80miles steeping?
compared with that a tesla is an inprovement
Along with fix-a-flat there will be ten-mile fuel cell quick jump kits for your car to get you to your next plug in.
What would be an even better (and just as useful) measure would be to run inductive chargers under the pavement on long stretches of the interstate system where you charge as you ride, or largely ride for free. Or (if we _must_) you have a Charge Pass(tm) meter to get billed for charge as you go.
Make fun of the charge-for-free if you like, but it is likely cheaper to give the passers-through the free ride than to clean up the mess of the fuel economy (plus billing etc). Imagine how well the power systems would be regulated if the fed were footing the bill for the electricity delivered to the interstate highway system.
Regardless of that sky-pie...
Since there is no inherent danger to making electricity available, as opposed to the inherent danger of making petrochemical distillates available, getting a charge as part of parking at your rest stop or attraction (or while parked at work because of your employers clean-air program) could delete the entire concept of the dedicated fueling station.
Go to Denies, or MacDonalds, or Taco Time, and get a (full or partial) charge while you eat.
Sound unlikely? Well in colder climates they already rig their parking lots with plugs to keep your engine block from freezing while you shop or eat.
Hell, having reduced-price or even free charging at the local highway rest-stop would cut way down on tired long-distance driving accidents. Pull over, take a rest, get a charge on us 'cause it's cheaper than having to dispatch Life Flight etc.
Once the "fuel" is electricity, which is literally everywhere in our society, we lose the need for the "filling station" to be a super-defined super-regulated contentious resource. Anybody can sell "their" electricity if they have the amperage to spare.
Once motive force stops being "rare and dangerous" gasoline, the paradigm totally goes to distributed recharging as the most sensible practice.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
of our fine edjumacashunal system...trying to explain a fine point of language to some1 like unity100 is a waste of time:-{
That statement is completely true. There were experiments and prototypes of IC engines that used ceramics instead of metals. While a metal IC engine is only about 27-30% efficient there was talk that ceramics could achieve close to 50% efficiency due to a reduction in friction and a reduction in weight. Now my math skills think and I could be wrong but isn't the efficiency calculation use a coefficient? If so then a 20% increase should equate an order of magnitude improvement in consumption or 30mpg becomes 300mpg? That probably isn't correct, but you get the idea.
The honda dealer offered to buy back my Civic hybrid for what I paid for it a year ago. I got a good discount and the tax rebate... He said he's selling Civic hybrids for $3000 over MSRP, but can't get enough; waiting list is 4 months long.
Whats the payback period when you make a profit on owning the car?
http://www.buyingadvice.com/
I think we agree. I might have misread your post so thanks for the clarification.
You are right that the NRC is pretty strict about what types of plants they will consider.
Slashdot via SMS? Say it ain't so!