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Theorizing a Big Apple Push Into Gaming
Ian Lamont writes "Terrence Russell has outlined an interesting theory about what industry Apple intends to break into next. He points to games. Forget Pippin II, or an iMac gaming rig — he thinks the mobile realm is where Apple will make a big product push. It's not the first bit of speculation about Apple's renewed interest in gaming, but Russell's theory may have more legs, considering Apple's invitation to develop games on the iPhone SDK, its strong mobile product line, and a Apple trademark extension filed three months ago."
Apple tried this once before. It did not go over so well. Why would this next time around be any different?
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
How about Apple fixes it's graphics cards lineup before shooting for the moon.
I have a Quad-Core 3.0 and I can tell you, with the GPUs that came with it, I can barely play WoW, nevermind any other new games.
I had to buy a new PC in order to play any of the new games out because my mac (as great as it is), cannot handle the games.
MABASPLOOM!
If Mac had a stronger stranglehold on gaming and depending on how things go, isn't Apple based off Unix? So wouldn't that cause games to trickle down to Linux via people reverse engineering and other methods, as well? /correct me if I'm wrong, as said I don't know Mac for Jack
What ever happened to the new pointing device that Apple was supposed to come out with? I instantly though they were going to strengthen their stance on gaming when the rumors about it started circulating.
Forget that. I'd like to see a more serious push from them in the desktop/laptop area so I didn't have to use Bootcamp or VMWare to run games only released for Windows. I'm happy to do that given that I find using OS X and the Mac hardware a very positive experience, but I'd be a bit disappointed if they neglected 'us' and focused solely on the iPhone.
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
Sales of Macs would skyrocket! Plus, DNF might actually run!
While there are a lot of iPhone users now, I wouldn't call developing mobile games solely for their own hardware a big "Push Into Gaming". Unless they develop games for all mobile devices (highly impractical) or get mainstream games to run on their mobile hardware (not sure on the feasibility of this), it's going to be very niche.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
Apple pushes into gaming they flop. How many times have they promised new tools and support for game devs and come up far, far short? They have no passion for it and you can tell that comes from the top.
"Theorizing a Big Apple Push Into Gaming"
Phew, I thought New York was going to get into gaming. Had me worried for a new york minute there.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
you just never know what apple will do next...
A white XBOX, fantastic..
Yes, there are mobile phone games, but how big an industry are we talking about?
Think waaay back before they launched the ipod. There were LOTS of mp3 player brands and Apple can control the entire value chain.
In the mobile phone space, they've got the service provider standing in the way ready to put the squeeze on Apple when they start doing well.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
They should build a console, it will be white, it will look sleek and stylish and the most powerful hardware ever. iPlay!!!
More like GAYmes.
Unless you're talking about hunt the wumpus or curses-based tetris, it doesn't do jack shit for Linux.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Because this time, they are not trying to break into a market. They are already in a market, with a very popular device (iPhone/Touch), that has decent power and 3D capabilities along with some really good control systems (accelerometers/multitouch).
Anyone who saw the demo of Monkeyball running on the iPhone from the launch of the SDK, is crazy to think that a whole lot of cool games are not forthcoming.
Furthermore, gaming on the iPhone has the same kind of hook that Wii gaming does - it's going to be kind of unique. Exactly because there's really nothing like a D-Pad on the system games are going to have to figure out what games work best with controls using multi-touch and the accelerometers. Being unqiue is also helpful in that games for the syste,m will seem different than what people are used to, even from the DS which already has a touchscreen.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Remember the history of all Apple products.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Game developers like consoles because of the preset hardware configurations. They don't have to test their work across a wide array of setups like they do on a PC. Apple could definitely provide a similar lure with the Mac.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Apple may not have exhibited much appetite for gaming on the Mac but the i-Phone platform could be very different. The new SDK supports OpenGL ES for 3D graphics (and it's a very capable API standard) as well as OpenAL for 3D audio (which could be very cool on headphones). Add to this the gyro sensor for control and you can expect to see a ton of games being developed with the new SDK...
then look how they adapted the i-phone to a music specific device (iPod Touch) and the concept of an "iPod Play" doesn't seem to far fetched to me.
Because those are the next step in OSS gaming? Methinks someone needs to look at Vegastrike or a similar project.
A game that was originally developed for Macs became Microsoft's console's biggest franchise.
Unless they develop games for all mobile devices (highly impractical) or get mainstream games to run on their mobile hardware (not sure on the feasibility of this)
I agree there's no way they are going to have a platform for game development for all platforms. Whay would they? Apple wants to sell Apple platforms.
But Apple is pushing in a very big way for mainstream names to come to the platform. We've already seen demos from Nintendo and from EA, in particular a Spore demonstration. Now those were proof of concepts but it's pretty obvious both parties are interested in extending those relationships into real working games.
Games on the iPhone will be different due to how control schemes have to be altered. But we'll see names from many big players, and games from big franchises.
This may strike people as another nGague, but this time Apple is still focused on the core reasons for owning a device - and also making is useful for gaming, which is I think the right mix for a portable device that is not only a game system. I think it will be more successful than other non-gaming mobile platforms, because it has better support for graphics and control and a really good display for gaming.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Over the years, Apple has done everything short of spitting in the face of game developers.
Yes, there will be mobile games for the iPhone. I expect to see a Bejeweled port in short order. No, the iPhone will not be the next handheld gaming device a la Nintendo DS, Sony PSP, etc. It's capabilities will be similar to Windows Mobile, with fewer games. All development will be done by third parties who Apple will do nothing to encourage and whom Apple will end up screwing over (because they always screw over the developers). i.e. "We've just released the mandatory iPhone update X, which breaks all 3rd-party apps, and we didn't bother to tell developers this would happen, and no, we won't tell you what we changed to make it easy to fix your apps. We hate you."
Thinking about this, I find I am so excited I can barely sit still or hold a thought in my head. I think it is the excitement only a true gamer can feel, a gamer at the start of a long journey whose conclusion is uncertain... I hope Apple can elevate the gaming industry. I hope to see Steve Jobs and shake his hand. I hope their new games/systems are as blue as they have been in my dreams.
iHope.
If Mac had a stronger stranglehold on gaming and depending on how things go, isn't Apple based off Unix?
Apple OSX is based of BSD, so yes, indirectly it is based off of Unix. However, many applications are written in Objective C, which I don't think is available for Linux.
ZuluPad, the wiki notepad on crack
Toons running into walls and making silly dizzy noises, ftw!
"I drank what?" -Socrates
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." -Mark Twain
Apple uses a modified version of gcc, but gcc has supported objective C since the NextStep days. GNUStep provides an OpenStep implementation.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I play WOW using a white 2.13 dual core with 7600GT and it does fine for WOW, better it works running three sessions at one time. Granted two are in the lowest settings at 640x480 while the main is usually full screen with everything on. I use a little tool named Clonekeys to mirror keystrokes from one session to another while implementing in game macros to tie them all together. I have launched five but all of them had to be minimal to even work. Now I do have 3gb of ram and that seemed to be the key to success.
Now the latest generation iMac has an 8800GS equivalent and the 8800GT can be used in the Mac Pro lines so that should allow for more stressful games to be played either in OS X or under XP.
I do agree their offering is a little slim. I would also like to see a Mac Pro "Junior" line using the same processors as the iMac/Mini but with the ability to slap cards in as I want. That would be the best option but I highly doubt it as Mac seems to be becoming a little corner operation at times. That to me is the only real hole in their line up is an expandable headless unit.
Frankly, with the ability to run XP on the iMac and the 8800GS I may have a good solution for a few years but ideally I would want the same GPU in a Mac Mini or best yet a headless "mini Mac Pro"; junior has bad connotations
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
The PC gaming market has shrunken. A LOT. PC (Wintel? Non-Apple? What have you) games are now banished to a corner of any given video game store, rather than dominating it. And the new Apples are using the same hardware as any other computer out there. So now would be a good time to attempt this.
What they need, though, is something killer. Something that makes people sit up and say "OMG must have OSX!" Something GTA4-level wowzers. What would that be? No idea.
But, it would likely not support "Direct X" flavor of the day. It will be OpenGL (GL-ES 2.0, would be my guess). Games on the iPhone? Not likely (you would break the touch-screen) so I would guess a new iPod spin. I would expect easy "tv out" built in, and maybe some other glitz.
All the pieces are there.
But I *don't* expect it to be terribly popular, except for the Apple true believers. Unless, of course, it IS the replacement iPod. Then, I expect it to completely dominate.
Just sayin'
I can't wait for my controller with only one button.
Someone mod Apple down -1 Redundant.
Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
A great deal of Mac game developers are living at iDevGames (www.idevgames.com). If you want to get a feel for future development of games on the iPhone, this would be the place to hear about it.
I thought Apples were already marketed to fruits.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
So, as I still don't understand,
would that enable "mac games" to be ported as "linux games" or not necessarily? Especially for graphics intensive games.
There is a GNU obj-c compiler for Linux. You won't have cocoa or Apple's other proprietary libraries to work with, though.
GCC will compile objective-C last time I checked.
The language just doesn't have many followers outside its select worlds for some reason. (Not being a c++, C, or objective-C developer, I can comment why.)
I think you may be mixing up Objective C and the frameworks that are part of OSX. Objective C is a programming language. Apple's toolchain uses gcc as the compiler; so no trouble there on Linux.
On the other hand, frameworks like Cocoa and Quartz are OSX-only and not available on Linux.
If it's simple games, I can see the market not having much of a problem buying them for $5 each or whatever. But if these are full fledged games that will compete with the ones released on DS or PSP, then people might have a problem with not being able to buy them in stores as gifts (buying an iTunes gift card will have the stigma of thoughtlessness that giving cash in a card does), or simply not having physical media to lend or trade on used markets.
Twinstiq, game news
Short answer: no.
Long answer: no.
When Doom 4 was announced, I looked at the id Software job postings. Several of the jobs are for mobile game development, including iPhone. It seems many game makers are hopping on the mobile market. Whether that market really takes off remains to be seen.
The iPhone market is already in the millions of handsets sold, with a pretty obvious growth path, and the mobile games industry itself is already a proven money maker. The fact that EA and Nintendo were working on prototypes already indicates a lot of interest, and there is clear profit to be made by these companies just by leveraging existing concepts.
I'm not sure the hardware is as limited as you think, it sports a flavor of OpenGL and EA at least simply ported over existing game media to make the prototype they had (as did Nintendo with Monkey Ball).
Mobile ports are totally different than full ports of games to OS X (though EA has already committed to that with a kind of Wine like layer to make it happen).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Of course Apple's going to push the iPhone as a gaming platform- they'd be stupid not to. Why? Because it already IS the platform- they're already selling a mobile device with the form factor, screen, and processing power required for a good handheld gaming system. So failing to make it into one simply due to lack of the games themselves would basically be silly. I don't think Apple set out to build a competitor for the DS & PSP, but if they're selling competitive hardware anyway, why on earth wouldn't they want to make it compete? Especially if doing so is as simple as beefing up the SDK with gaming API's and encouraging independent developers to do the rest. And there's really not any question about that, because Apple's already done that. They invited in game developers to use their new SDK, and the game developers say they're impressed with what a great game development platform Apple's made the iPhone. It seems that this is yesterday's news; Apple already announced the iPhone as a portable gaming platform, and already has major game developers on board. This article is speculating that Apple might do something that Steve said they've already done in his last keynote.
If you want crazy theories about what Apple could do as far as gaming goes... how about, instead of selling Mac Pros with two quad-core Xeons, they start making them with one quad-core Xeon and one Cell. Sure, it would take a mountain of work to make Xcode optimize its compiler to execute code for running on two different architectures simultaneously, especially one as odd as the Cell, but Xcode already generates universal binaries for x86 and PPC at the click of a button, and Apple's got the resources these days to make Xcode optimize as much as possible for the Cell, and make decisions about which code to run on the cell and which to run on the Xeon.
Why would they try a crazy architecture like that? Well, in the markets Mac Pros are aimed at; video editing, rendering, Photoshop, scientific computing- Cells can, in certain circumstances, run circles around the competition. It could grant a speed advantage for certain tasks that Windows PC's would have no hope of matching. Throw in a quad Xeon, a Cell, and finish up making the OS offload some processing to the graphics card, and you've got a computer with three extremely different and very fast processors to throw at different sorts of problems.
But wait, didn't I say something about games? Well, if you're selling a computer with a Cell in it already, along with a graphics card, (how long could it be before Apple starts offering Blu-ray on Mac Pros...), could they license PS3 compatibility from Sony? They wouldn't even have to license it, Sony could sell a PS3 compatibility client for Mac Pros. Before you say "Sony would never do that," remember that Sony loses money on each PS3- they're in this for market dominance, not hardware profits.
Anyway, that's my crazy conspiracy theory regarding Apple gaming, to go with the "already happened so it's not even news" theory regarding iPhone gaming above.
Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
All development will be done by third parties who Apple will do nothing to encourage
That's already different. The very launch of the SDK itself had EA and Nintento both presenting concept games (Super Monkey Ball and Spore respectively). It's obvious that in this realm at least, game developers are being courted and listened to (which you'd also realize if you looked at the SDK and watched it change from release to release).
"We've just released the mandatory iPhone update X, which breaks all 3rd-party apps, and we didn't bother to tell developers this would happen, and no, we won't tell you what we changed to make it easy to fix your apps. We hate you."
Not sure where you are coming from on this but the Apple I know seeds development versions of OS X, and now Mobile OS X, early on so that you can see if in fact your app needs to be updated for a new release of the OS.
And they issue release notes detailing exactly what has changed.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They need a MID-range HEAD LESS DESKTOP and cross fire drivers as the mac pro has 2 pci-e x16 2.0 slots and cross fire works in windows on the mac pro.
Imacs are better but still have poor build in screen and come with laptop ram that does have the beast timeing.
The imacs don't look that good next to other x86 pc systems at lower prices and the mac pro is over the top.
The mini is a POS and video in sucks for gameing.
$1,799.00 + $150 NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS w/512MB GDDR3 and you still only have 2gb or ram
or
$2,199.00 and you still only have 2gb or ram
Mac Pro
$2,799.00 + $150 NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB and you still only have 2gb or ram
or
$2,799.00 - $500 to drop a cpu + $150 NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB and you still only have 2gb or ram
A good head less desktop starting at $500 - $700 and going up to $2100 with maybe having a few BTO systems with dual video cards at the high end will be a good fit and let them use lower cost DDR2 ram that also has good times as well. With a system with a fast dual or quad core desktop cpu with mid to high end video card and 2-4gb of ram comping in at $1000-$1500.
The FB-DIMMS in the mac pro are not that good for gameing and cost a lot more.
Yes, if the game developers are willing to put in the effort necessary to make their game compile using GNUstep --- which unfortunately, may involve more engineering effort than the Linux market could bear.
William
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
...unless DirectX comes to OSX. Mac's make up 10% of the market, something like that, right?
While I'm sure some games will be cross-platform, you try selling the idea of focussing your coding efforts on 10% of the total market to your CEO.
Remember too; games written for DirectX just happen to port real easy to the XBox too - that is real margin savings right there for most game developers.
Oh, and don't even compare OpenGL to DirectX because DirectX does way more than just graphics; it's an entire API set for every element of gaming.
throw new NoSignatureException();
When you have a bunch of unconnected thoughts, and an idea that might link them, but have not yet witnessed proof, this is "hypothesizing".
And you wonder why creationists don't get it. Shit.
Bring Steam over and port over some of the more popular games, like the Orange box and I'm there.
(Likely Won't happen (ever), but I can dream...)
I'm holding off a Mac purchase until I see what gets a refresh at the WWDC.
Do not read this
The video game market is one of the most expensive and toughest to crack into of all global markets. Only two new companies managed to make it from scratch in more than 10 years : Sony and Microsoft, each of them gambling huge amounts of money over many years. Apple certainly "could" theoretically make it, it has the talent and the cash, but as a business decision it would not make sense for a company that is mostly known for breaking changes and creating whole new markets. As for the "mobile" focus, doesn't make any difference : that field is crowded already, by Nintendo and Sony no less.
and suck is a compliment. They are absolutely horrid.
Did you know that nVidia Quadro FX 5600 ($2800 professional 3d sterio super duper workstation card) performs poorer than ATI HD 2600 XT ($130 card) for example in apple pro application benchmarks?
http://www.barefeats.com/harper10.html
I have 8 core mac pro with 8800 GT (a really good video card in the PC world even today) and majority of animation effects in OS X are choppy as hell and google earth is barely usable with it (5 year old PC with single core and 4 generations older video card beats it).
So, yeah Apple and video has a long way to go.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
That's fine. You know that Windows should not be marketed by people who throw chairs.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Personally, I've been expecting Sun to enter the field, what with Java's ubiquity, OpenGL binding, and their massively multi-threaded Niagara chips, I'd think they could come up with a competitive console.
http://www.mhall119.com
dumbest idea ever!
apple will never unseat the wii or nintendo for casual gaming. They'll never unseat the web for granny gaming.
They'll never unseat the 360 or ps3 for console gaming, and never unseat the PC for performance gaming.
as for mobile gaming? n-gage did it and failed. It's tired here in the US where mobile bandwidth costs a testicle and a spleen.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Apple needs to have a tool the easily allows gamers to develop for both PC and Mac platforms.
Then they need to give them away to whoever wants them. They need to have great game developer conference where developers are treated like kings.
The return would be more sold Macs. While the Mac does ahve a lot of games, I can not count on the next big game being on the Mac.
I am a gamer, and I want a Mac.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If the games run on a Mac, they have an OpenGL implementation of their rendering subsystem.
That makes a Linux port MUCH easier than porting from a Windtendo born DirectX-based subsystem.
Sounds like something that would be made for a DS.
Indeed (though I don't think the DS has the accelerometers). You are however I would point out saying that it's just like the DS, and the PS3/Wii - except it's like both at once since it combines the two things. Is that not somewhat different and new?
You can relax though, just because the iPhone may be popular for gaming does not mean it will replace the DS.
Now can you admit there is potential?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You could probably make an Objective-C to C translator, sure, but the language is not the problem as the compiler is free. Mac OS X has tons of proprietary API to re-implement as well.
-mkb
How cute! An input system that makes texting take 10 times as long as using the keypad. Fantastic! I'm sure it works perfectly for Doom RGP and other popular mobile games. Oh and no other mobile phone as decent power and 3D capabilities, the iPhone is way ahead of the competition there.
Then there is the little fact that there are already hundreds of ISV:s developing mobile games using the J2ME platform so that they can easily be ported between different phone models. But they are ofcourse going to give up (relatively) easy portability in favor of designing games for the Apple iPhone uberdevice exclusively.
Football Odds
Actually, you can't play World of Warcraft natively in linux. I haven't tried any of their other games, so I don't know about them.
iConsole: I'm an iConsole
Xbox 360: And I'm an Xbox 360
iConsole: Hey Xbox 360, what's wrong?
Xbox 360: Oh the red ring of death, looks like I have to be replaced
iConsole: That's too bad Xbox 360, you know the iConsole doesn't have that problem
Xbox 360: Yeah, you also don't have any games, plus you cost more than the PS3
iConsole: That may be so, but people appreciate a console that just works, plus no red ring of death
Xbox 360: Yes well despite that we still managed to beat the PS3. I'd like to know what your plan is?
iConsole: Well, while you're off getting replaced people can do fun things like make photobooks and watch movies from itunes
Xbox 360: Fair enough I suppose. I think I'll go play Wii on my week off.
I have nothing compelling to say
When I think 'games', if there's one brand that comes to mind, it's Apple.
... would love to see an Apple mobile gaming device, as long as it had great games, or even better... could run user created apps and games. Apple's sleek styling that I really dig. Think of an Apple console! I'm sure it'd look slick, but if they really put some though and innovation into it, it'd be great to see them entry in the next generation of consoles. I think the next generation of consoles will have for "PC" or "Media Center" functionality than those out now. Apple already has a grip on the way a lot of us listen to our music, it would be really nice to see what they could do with a gaming console / media center. Competition is good for the consumer.
"The irony when tending a flock of sheep is the dogs you put in place to protect them are genetically mutated wolves"
*Do not post without hitting "PREVIEW" while on Vicodin* I really should have proof read that....
"The irony when tending a flock of sheep is the dogs you put in place to protect them are genetically mutated wolves"
Since nobody has answered the question at top level here, allow me.
No.
While OSX shares more API with Linux than Windows, it's still not enough. Text based apps that use things like POSIX and BSD-style sockets ought to be source-compatible (with a little work), but most Mac apps rely on proprietary APIs like Carbon, Cocoa, and the Core* libraries. You would need a WINE-like compatibility layer for such things to work in Linux.
Mac applications are written in C and/or Objective-C, using the Cocoa or Carbon libraries to provide an interface to the user (and to the underlying OS). Games specifically are usually written using OpenGL with (optionally) a mix of other platform-specific functionality. Accessing the user (via HID), the graphics card (via OpenGL, CoreGraphics, CoreAnimation, etc), and the sound hardware (via CoreAudio) is all platform-specific.
Most of a specific chunk of code written for a Windows game will (most likely) be relatively portable already (with the possible exception of non-standard types). The bits that need to be rewritten to work on OS X are the same bits that would need to be rewritten to work on Linux. Porting to OS X gains Linux almost nothing.
Macs as gaming systems are already helping to make for an easier transition for games on Linux, but for the most part the Linux market isn't there. Mostly the affect is due to developers moving to OpenGL for flexibility of platforms (Windows, Mac, PS2, PS3, PSP Wii, NDS, and mobile phones) as opposed to DirextX (Windows and Xbox360).
Objective C is available on any platform that uses the GNU Compilers suite.
You are absolutely right about the drivers... Something that most apple-heads don't realize is that apple is consistently several cycles behind with OpenGL (and of course there is no other major alternative aside from directX). When they finally do publish updates, they actually lie about the specifications and publish API documents that do not match the true capabilities of their implementations. So functions that are supposedly implemented in fact have not been implemeneted, etc. Screw them. Apple is not developer friendly (I am primarly working on audio apps for their platform at the moment), and for that reason, it's next to impossible to imagine them making inrodes into PC gaming. Handelds too... i mean give me a break. Kids play gameboy... kids dont have iphones. if i met a kid with an iphone, i would pick them up by one ankle and steal it
from them.
...and the replacements on {fill in your non-OS X UN*X here} for any other Mac OS X-specific APIs used by the game.
As an addition, people who work in glass Windows shouldn't throw chairs.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
You mean the SDK that requires Apple's blessing to actually use?
And you think GAME DEVELOPERS, mavens of proprietary libraries, give a whit about spending a whole $100 to write games? Get real.
The SDK just further demonstrated Apple's hostility toward developers. Sure the SDK is free, but to actually use it (the emulator won't run openGL, so its useless for game development)
Been running OpenGL stuff on the emulator for weeks now. What else are you totally ignorant about I wonder if you can't get that basic fact straight?
Apple has already rejected 90% of the developers who applied.
So that's what else you're ignorant about. You mistake delay for rejection. All the people that got letters are slowly being accepted. I know, because a friend of mine just got in that got the supposed "rejection" letter (he doesn't work for any company, applied as an individual). Also of course Apple themselves clarified long ago it was simply that the beta program was being slowly expanded.
Please do some reading before you post next time, you'd save all of us some time and your reputation from a savage beating from those that know better. Or in fact anything.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It is - GCC has an Objective-C frontend. The real problem is apps that use Apple frameworks like CoreAudio, CoreVideo, CoreData etc - those don't have implementations on Linux.
Not until someone makes a project that emulates the OSX APIs and such... like WINE, but for Mac
:)
I am dubious about many games taking advantage of the motion pack, add-ons never really seem to do well... but it's nice it has the ability now, I'm sure at least a few good games will come of it.
Yes, it blends aspects. Yes, it has potential. No, it doesn't have enough potential for people to immigrate to the United States to become eligible to sign up to be developers.
Then it's well I never claimed any such thing, though actually there are a number of international developers clamoring for access that Apple has just opened up the program for. Not just for games though, just general application development.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It is really unbelievable that any company would ever waste time to develop software for the iPhone.
Nobody in his/hers right mind, would want to pay Apple each time you sell a piece of software.
It is also PLAIN stupid people are force to ONLY buy software via iTunes.
But then again it just proves that Apple wants to control everything, it is like slavery, and the Apple Fanatics are stupid enough to fall for it every time.
I am a developer, and as long as Apple makes this kind of &/&%&%( i will not spend a single microsecond developing ANYTHING for they machines, there is way more money in developing Windows software anyway, and none of all those restrictions.
And now as the HTC Touch Diamond is coming, nobody with good taste would want a crippled iPhone anyway.
None of the major system APIs other than Posix and common low-level OSS libraries have any resemblance to those in Linux.
The percentage of Mac laptops can be overwhelmingly large in certain niches, which reminds me of this photo I saw not too long ago.
Don't know how I confused Sega for Nintendo, I guess it was the platform Super Monkey Ball shipped on that came out through the keys...
:-)
As for the ordering, I'll claim it was stack based FIFO all along.
Thanks for the corrections.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Just look at the evidence...
Just because mobile phones have built-in cameras, have they killed off the sales of digital cameras? No. And why? Because digital cameras take better pictures and because the more "abilities" you throw into a single device, the more complicated you make it to operate for Joe Public.
Has the iPhone killed the iPod due to the ability to play music on it? No, because an iPod does a better job of playing music than a phone does.
So what does this tell you? It tells you people don't mind following the UNIX philosphy of having a number of different tools, all of which do a single job well - rather than having a single tool that, no matter how pretty the GUI is, is still complicated to operate for Joe Public. And not to mention the fact that having separate devices means that when one device breaks, Joe Public loses the ability to do one thing for a while, rather than everything.
Apple has completely and totally missed an opportunity that Microsoft are currently missing - namely tiny PCs or netbooks like the EEEPC. Microsoft slipped up with pushing everything into Vista without the realisation that there's no chance of getting it to run on a Netbook - Windows XP, yes (with a bit of slimming down) & Linux definitely. Plus Netbooks will play games quite well and are pretty portable.
Sorry, Apple freaks, but ask yourself a question. Imagine Joe Public in the computer shop with his mobile phone in his pocket that already makes phone calls "quite well". In front of him on one shelf is an iPhone, on the other is a EEEPC and a "normal" Nokia phone which both, combined, cost less than the iPhone. So what do you think he's going to buy?
Putting the fanbois aside, the reality of the situation is this - despite my personal disdain of iTunes and DRM stopping me ever buying a closed platform player like an iPod, the reality is that Joe Public likes the iPod because to him it's a good product at a reasonable price that *just* plays music.
However, Joe Public is not buying Macs because as far as he's concerned, a PC is cheaper and lets him surf the Internet and play a few games. Therefore, Macs are not good value products which is why they are marketed as fashion accessories and "geek toys" to appeal to those people who need to make outward displays to others. (Otherwise, why would the Apple logo need to be so big and visible on a Mac?)
Yes, maybe if Macs were half the price they are, people would buy them in their droves - but then the fanbois wouldn't buy them because they wouldn't be "exclusive" enough for them.
So let's not beat about the bush here - iPods sell because they play music well at the right price. But Macs are aimed at an exclusive market and iPhones are aimed at people who have already bought Macs. Therefore Macs and iPhones will never be particularly viable gaming platforms whilst Joe Public can buy stuff that's half the price or less and plays games as well or better.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
http://gcc.gnu.org/
Read the first line on the page. I've already compiled one game in Objective C in linux and it works fine. It's not the langauge that is the problem between Mac and linux, it's the libraries!!!
And rest assured, this is by design. Apple is as excited about Linux as Microsoft is, probably even less so.
What can traverse the iMac/MacBook/iPhone/iPod Touch universe?
music.
e-Mail.
Web.
video.
Games.
Any two of the above would combine to maske a nice product.
Any three of the above make a great market.
Any four make a blockbuster.
Remember when hearing that Microsoft was 'getting into' your business meant certain death, dismemberment, or pain?
Fear Apple.
You heard it elsewhere. It's true.
Coming up next; Google as Evil. Real Soon Now.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
GNUStep is hardly helpful in porting Cocoa apps to Linux. OpenStep is based on NeXTSTEP 4.0. Leopard's Cocoa is 9.0.
Mac developers using Obj-C are using it to write Cocoa apps. having an Obj-C compiler for Linux isn't the problem; having no Cocoa frameworks is.
Apple, getting in to games. Supporting game developers. Pigs flying. Dogs and cats, living together... mass hysteria.
As a long time Mac user, I have seen Lucy Jobs yank this particular football away at the last second more than once.
I'll be believe it when I see it, and maybe not even then. Occam's razor applies: what is more likely, Apple becoming actively pro-game, or me lying half dead and delirious in a ditch?
IANAE, but wouldn't it at least encourage developers to support OpenGL instead of (or in addition to) DirectX? It's always seemed to me that developers are more likely to develop for an additional platform once they're already developing for more than 1.
It's like, if you're making Windows-only software, then why not rely on all of Microsoft's proprietary little bells and whistles? But once you're developing for Mac, you're thinking about how to do proper cross-platform development and whatnot. The extra step to support Linux seems a little smaller, right?
Of course, I'm not a programmer at all, so what do I know.
That's like saying if you build a WalMart from bricks and it doesn't work out, you can use your bricks to build a McDonalds somewhere else instead without much trouble, because you already have the bricks.
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You might be able to share some library code between platforms, but applications developed for Cocoa Touch are not going to be highly portable to Android because of a subset of commonality in of the programming languages used on both.
Android is essentially Java, except the code is converted into a non Java bytecode to run on a different VM so that Google doesn't have to pay Sun for it.
Cocoa Touch is based upon the very different Cocoa frameworks.
It will be easier to port Java code to Cocoa Touch, although the UI will still need to be built custom for the Cocoa Touch platform.
And the Apple crowd wonder why so few people buy them over here in the UK.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Apple has always charged ridiculous prices for memory upgrades. Fortunately, upgrading memory is very easy and can be done for much less. I upgraded my iMac from 2gb to 4gb for $120, and my Macbook to 2gb for less than $100. Bought the memory at Crucial.
wow, apple is overpriced, it's not like Alienware isn't overpriced either. That's why my custom built Gaming rig (if i had the money to build it today) would costs me about $2053 or so. Add in the 46" HDTV to be it's primary display, and the cost goes up to about $3600 but that's with a 46" screen... 46 beautiful inches.
fulls specs in my journal here, but it's got a Black Phenom, 640 total graphic processing streams with 1GB of video ram, and 4GB of 3-4-3-9 system ram, and 1 TB of HDD. I'm still worried it's underpowered for vista, but that's what dual booting is for right.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Graphics intensive games would call OpenGL, which is already cross-platform and supported in almost all hardware. Objective-C is a programming language, so if the programming language is written for the platform, it should compile. This should be fairly straightforward and little porting involved. You always have a few issues, mainly where BSD differs from Linux library-wise and sometimes endian issues (Objective-C or at least Cocoa includes endian libraries, but you aren't forced to use them).
What may be an issue:
New features in Cocoa - Objective-C 2.0 added some new functions and compiler options and I doubt they're in GNUStep or OpenStep (at least yet).
It sounds a lot like Amiga Anywhere which is a new platform that developers can use to write games for mobile phones.
In 1988 the Macintosh II series copied a lot of features from the 1985 Amiga 1000 computer. History repeats itself.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Long answer: The 3D API on both Mac and Linux is OpenGL, porting would be easier than it would be if it was originally written for DirectX/Direct3D. However, OSX has a bunch of Mac-only APIs - there is no rule that says that porting from those to Linux equivalents will be any easier than porting from Win32.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
Strange, on www.apple.com/ukstore it is only £120. Not that Apple doesn't make good money if you buy RAM from them; just go to Crucial and get it cheaper.
I think games are a no brainer when it comes to mac. But, I wouldn't push for it. Let people continue to buy a copy of windows to run games on. I think that the next direction for MAC is going to be more steps in what made them successful thus far. Education, Education, Education. Just about every college Campus in the US has an outlet of selling Mac computers. This means that it only makes sense for Apple to continue developing software and hardware to support those endeavors before Linux does.
I'll believe Apple care about gaming when they devote engineering effort - ANY engineering effort - toward improving SDL or some hypothetical equivalent.
Any sign of this so far? Nope. Their current pitch to game developers is "come on over, waste brain cells learning our dead-end niche programming language, chain yourselves to our mind-bogglingly retarded UI that thinks opaque binary blob is an acceptable source format".
<River> Call me if anything interesting shows up </River>
I've always had the impression that Steve Jobs has a great disdain for games and the games industry.
I don't know if it was backlash from his short stint at Atari or what, but he's never once treated games as any sort of priority for Apple. I really doubt that even their earlier systems would have much for games if it wasn't for Woz.
Jobs' comments when asked are usually to the effect that games are just a sideproduct, something that comes along, as if they were automatically lesser than other software and that they'll just pop up on their own, without much API or hardware support for them.
Sure they'll jump on it as a potential source of extra revenue and popularity for the iPhone, I'm sure hardware designed for videos and web should be able to play something.
But I'm gonna take a Gabe Newell stance on this one: I don't think Apple understands games and the games industry at all.
~shrug~
They Bought a PPC Chip Company, They just patented a wii like controller. I think its 2 or 3 years off, but I can see it. In the Mean time I can see shortly the Apple TV and Ipod Touch / Iphone become casual game platforms.
First Post
there was this mock up of a NDS/iPhone Hybrid a while back. Basically clamshell with both ends looking like iPhones. But man did it make you want one. $1000? No prob.
That assumes open source scabs buy software. they'll just pirate any commercial linux games that come out.
And rest assured, this is by design. Apple is as excited about Linux as Microsoft is, probably even less so.
How Apple feels regarding Linux aside, I seriously doubt that Apple designed any of their APIs with an eye towards Linux incompatibility.When the Gamecube came out I imagined it would be a good idea for Apple to make their computers play Gamecube games natively. Why not? There were lots of similarly-branded components at the time (ATI graphics cards, I think, IBM chips). That would have been a win-win, because Nintendo really needed some kind of boost, and Macs desperately needed games. If that didn't happen, then I doubt Macs playing PS3 games ever will. Don't you think you'd sooner see a VAIO playing PS3 games?
I wonder how Apple, in the desktop market, plans to make serious gamers\computer geeks that like to upgrade their hardware manually happy. One of the best parts about my desktop is that I built it 3 years ago (ancient, I know) but I have been able to upgrade it such that I run crysis, UT3, WoW, or anything else with at least good settings. I am not sure how well people would be able to really put some love into their computers with all things dealing with hardware go to Apple store and such... My $0.02
Apple computer, they are usually within 1 million units or so of their 4th quarter (the strongest quarter for any PC maker) numbers in the 1st quarter... what does that spell to me or to you or to anyone else?
There are people who because they couldn't get an apple computer for Christmas tucked that money away and bought it in the 1st quarter. There are enough of these people who couldn't get it in Christmas, that the 1st quarter sales for apple are insanely high.
If you're going by 1st quarter sales reported by Apple, then your theories might be negated by the fact that Apple's fiscal 1st quarter runs from October 1 to December 30. Here's an example: Apple Reports First Quarter Results- "CUPERTINO, California--January 17, 2007--Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2007 first quarter ended December 30, 2006."
In contrast, Dell's fiscal 1st quarter runs from February thru April.TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Wouldn't the fact that Apple has a limited number of configurations play into its advantage if they wanted companies to develop games for it? One of the biggest complaints that developers have is the fact that there are endless amounts of configs they have to support. So therefore, shouldn't it be easier to support Apple for games then MS?
i own a mac and a pc
i use the mac for all my work and emails etc
i use the nearly decrepit pc for gaming
thats it i dont have a video game console but if it was an apple gaming console i would pay the extra amount for it
and even imagine the day the apple gaming console "the iGame"
could beat the Xbox
ponder it and then someone out in the ether could start some sort of petition then send it to apple and cross ya fingers
from me
Althougth I like very much Apple and software for posh people and Enrique Iglesias teenager fans, I think we must accept the crushing reality.
In this times, doesn't matters that Steve Jobs release the MacOS-X Iguana or the iPod nanoMillimeter, because while both products (and others with fewer sales, like MacCube) are based on flashing the users with foolishnesses, stupid and useless effects and pretty cases, Apple consolidates itselves as a leader on the DRM and freedom-fucker systems world, first with their fucking on-line music store iTunes and now with their stupid, too expensive and give_me_money_dad teenagers mobile-phone iPhone, which can't allows you to install or develop any applications.
The crushing reality is that Apple has nothing to offer to the SMART user. Smart user becomes surprised by can't save an ordinary mp3 file to his iPod without another application than the damned iTunes.
Ooooookay... then, we suggest to our Smart user to waste a lot of money in another fucking iPod, which he must renew every year to be really cool! (recommended by Steve Jobs) and which cannot be used with free firmwares, like RockBox, cause by DRM. How many people accepts this aberration? Only Derek Zoolander is so faithful to a brand.
Tell to Apple clients why their black MacBook is 200 euro more than the white version (!). Why it can support Windows (with BootCamp (!)) but doesn't support GNU/Linux or any other free Unices. Why MacOS-X stills ass-fucking free software with Exposé and Steve jobs laughs by this. Why must to pay 160 euro for any security update (Apple calls it âoenew versionâ, but this is a piece of shit). And list continues....
And Developers? They come back running and crying again into GNU/Linux, because there is no Christ who cans support to develop for a platform which threaten to fuck off with too absurd patents like 'spring folders', taked out from the GNOME project.
By any fucking MacOS-X application, we have 5000 for GNU/Linux. And, of course, those which works on MacOS-X works too on free Unices because... oh! Surprise!! it are Free Software.
Evidences of the Apple's failure are seen too on the Winduzers world, on subjects like suckers and lusers who downloads crakz with aMule (there are NOT any applications to crack XD), civil servant and officers (âoeis like fucking Windows, but worst!!â) or dads and moms on Christmas (âoe1500 euro for a damned computer which has NO GAMES?? Oh, my God! Sweet Jesus! What a fucking shit!!â)
Race for the most asshole user is lost for Linux users, because Apple users have thousands of miles of advantage, and they train almost every day.
They laugh when Linux users goes to a Stallman's conference, but they go to a Steve Jobs keynotes to listen him selling his damned products. They cry, and they fight against themselves to buy and they accepts to pay 70 euro for a fucking three-button mouse (!!!) like it's can be a hardware revolution (which is comic, because their user experience is a shit by the one-button mouse that same Apple sold before XD).
Stay defending the apple. Stay deffending Safari like it is the only standard-compliant web browser and go to buy the printed newspaper because you can't see it correctly on your damned MacBook. Stay thinking that people on the streets see you with envy when you walk with your iPod; people really think that you are an asshole. Stay shitting on Windows and run fast to buy BootCamp + a Windows license. Stay shitting on Intel to eat after it this same shit. Stay attacking Open Source and Free Software while continue stealing their ideas to make the only decent thing on your products. Stay on.
And you? How many songs have you bought on iTunes today?
Thanks for your attention.
Porting many games would however be less challenging than other types of apps because they tend not to use many features of Cocoa that aren't in AppKit, and the GNUStep version is pretty similar to the Cocoa one -- they're also far less reliant on IB NIB files and the growing collection of OS X UI widgets.
IMO the biggest problem with GNUStep portability wise is that it doesn't directly support Windows (you have to use MINGW or similar), so it's at best a way of helping to write stuff for UNIX and UNIX-like systems.
I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
"Mac OS X has tons of proprietary API to re-implement as well."
There isn't really very much that most graphics-oriented games would gain from using those proprietary APIs with the notable exception of the Mac's audio systems. The bulk of a decent modern game wouldn't require anything beyond OpenGL and standard POSIX APIs, all of which are present in most UNIX-based and UNIX-like systems that people who want to run graphics-intense games on that type of computer are likely to be using.
I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
well it *might* be that someone at Apple reads this ...
And Apple should make it easy to upgrade and change stuff. With the exception of the Mac Pro Apple computers are among the worst thing you could put on the desktop of your 500+ workers. Every swap of a died harddisk is a big operation whereas in office PC from HP (for example) they can be changed in less than 5 minutes.
-- "As a human being I claim the right to be widely inconsistent", John Peel
Apple has succeeded in areas where they take something complicated and make it easy enough for general public. That has been their advantage The original Mac freed users from using command lines. The current lineup makes things like Wi-Fi making movies easy. iPod made digital media players accessible. iTunes made buying music online for your media player easy. The iPhone made surfing and making phone calls less of a headache. Gaming consoles these days are pretty idiot proof. The games are hard but running the console is easy. There isn't an advantage for Apple.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Games for Apple would more than likely be OpenGL based, which would be easier to port to Linux than a DirectX game would.
Even as a mac fanboi, this title makes me chuckle. I'd like nothing more than for this to be true (in relation to computers), however.