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Bepi-Colombo

NASA already has some tangential evidence of permafrost on Mars, where it looks like molten rock has encountered subterranean ice and places where it looks like something is is seeping to the surface.

NASA did choose these landing sites for evidence of water in the recent past, so perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised that something is going on.

But I guess our best hope is to wait for Mars Express to point its instruments at the landing site. So fingers crossed until then!

Best wishes,
Mike.

Nevertheless, together which this Soyuz successor it makes sense - ESA will provide an enhanced replacement for Progress, Russia is developing a new crew capsule.
I hope that way Europe and Russia can provide a replacement for the aging Shuttle fleet.

It would be interesting to know if ESA does transfer technology from ARD to the new russian project....

Hubble might not be able to see that far into space with failed gyros; but before NASA is going to cancel Hubble because of that, they might wanna have a little chat with ESA engineers about operating their joint-venture IUE project without gyros.

To quote from the project page: The IUE is the longest-lived and one of the most productive satellites ever built. It worked non-stop (only one week of program interruption was made in 1985) until it was switched off in September 1996, 14 years later than originally planned., but the paragraphs NASA's engineers should be interested most in is:
The reliability of IUE's operation throughout its 18-year lifetime was staggering. Although the back-up cameras were faulty, the primary cameras remained fully operational. Despite the failure of four of its six gyroscopes, the pointing and slew control remained precise to the last.

When its fourth gyroscope failed in 1985, IUE continued operations thanks to an innovative reworking of its attitude control system by using the fine Sun sensor as a substitute. Targets were acquired blindly by knowledge of their positions and by careful pointing of the telescope. This redesign (the first ever in the history of space) worked well, with the loss of only a few minutes observation time per hour. Even with another gyroscope lost in its last year, IUE could still be stabilised in three axes, with only a single gyroscope, by adding star-tracker measurements.

So, in my opinion, Hubble could stick around a long time, as long as NASA accepts that it can't look into "very deep space" anymore, only into "somewhat deep space". It still can be very usefull to explore nearby stars and our own planets.

LLAP & LG
Rene

The Hubble Space Telescope is already an international project: it's a joint NASA-ESA cooperation (well, 85%-15%, but still).

European astronomers get a 15% time share for observations.

Of all the images linked, I think the "Pyramid and underground entrance (at the apex of the pic)" is the most interesting. Sure, there are plenty of non-ET explanations, especially since the view looks pretty skewed. But if there were to be one visible artifact of some long-dead civilization, it would probably be some mostly flat structure on the top of a mound. Anything in a valley would probably have gotten covered up by the dust.

But let's get one thing straight. Even if it does turn out that these shapes were created by intelligent hands, it does NOT mean that ancient Martians built the Egyptian or Mayan pyramids. A cone is simply a stable structure. Saying that Earthly pyramids must have been built by Martians is like saying that the doodlebug holes and ant mounds in the back yard were built by the ancient Egyptians.

By joint mission, you are perhaps refering to the fact that the US shoulders ~85% of the cost compared to the European 8.3. Interestingly, the GDP of the US is 10.45 trillioncompared to a European 11.52 trillion (this is a bit of overestimate for member space nations, but not 80% off). So, yes, in some bizzare way the American media has come to conclusion that the ISS is mostly a NASA success.

Living in the US and talking to many people, I can tell you that few take complete credit for winning WWII. The general opinion is that it was the US, Russia, and England were the important players. If you believe resisting invasion for ~14 days should mean getting credit, then we will have to just agree to disagree. Victory in the war in the Pacific was pretty much a United States effort. In Europe, Russia and England showed amazing heroics holding out, but were in little danger of ultimately overrunning Germany by itself. (Keep in mind that although Russia did stage an impressive counter attack after stalingrad, this was possible in large part because a two (3) front war existed. Take away the US/British fronts and...) However, it was the massive influx of men and material from the US that in the end saved the day. So, yes we somehow believe that the US deserves a great deal of credit for the war. To me, this is not too far off base.

building nuclear ramjets in the 50's

"Project Pluto" - a nuclear ramjet powered bomber project begun in the 50's - but it never flew and was cancelled in 1964. However, there were test-firings of a prototype engine. These produced 35,000 lbs of thrust - but that's only one quarter of today's most powerful aircraft engine (127,000 lbs thrust).

Has the EU ever even fired a nuclear engine?

It's a pity that the American nuclear rocket test firings nuked their own citizens.

FYI, the ESA is currently using ion plasma electric propulsion engines in their current generation of spacecraft. The SMART-1 probe, launched late last year and currently on it's way to the moon is powered by such a drive. NASA also has an ion drive on the Deep Space-1 probe.

This is going to be a very difficult mission. I would love to have a job constructing the lander... I am simply amazed by the fact that we're able to hurl a piece of fragile technology at tiny objects in space that are far, far away (yes, considering how big space is, I would call Mars 'small' too) -- and they will actually get there in one piece and work.

I really hope they'll make it with this one. The German Max-Planck Institute for Aeronomy (soon to be called Institute for Solar System Research) is responsible for the lander. My mom works there, so from what she talked about I could tell how complicated the development of such a lander is.

Considering how long one of the computer scientists there has been working on the lander software, and what kinds of stress testing procedures the parts had to go through (some of them were done at Astrium in Munich and my mom had the honor of personally delivering the components...), I have deep respect for the engineers who work on such projects - even more when they actually make it work (Spirit/Opportunity).

Also, I am glad that the Rosetta project got to keep going at all, considering that originally it was supposed to visit Wirtanen (German link, for English see maybe here), a whole different comet. That also means that for the new target, the lander's software and some components even had to be redesigned to suit the new comet's features. So, good luck to Rosetta - hitting this target would be one cool achievement.

Oh, also, this ESA page has some nice information about the mission as well.

This is going to be a very difficult mission. I would love to have a job constructing the lander... I am simply amazed by the fact that we're able to hurl a piece of fragile technology at tiny objects in space that are far, far away (yes, considering how big space is, I would call Mars 'small' too) -- and they will actually get there in one piece and work.

I really hope they'll make it with this one. The German Max-Planck Institute for Aeronomy (soon to be called Institute for Solar System Research) is responsible for the lander. My mom works there, so from what she talked about I could tell how complicated the development of such a lander is.

Considering how long one of the computer scientists there has been working on the lander software, and what kinds of stress testing procedures the parts had to go through (some of them were done at Astrium in Munich and my mom had the honor of personally delivering the components...), I have deep respect for the engineers who work on such projects - even more when they actually make it work (Spirit/Opportunity).

Also, I am glad that the Rosetta project got to keep going at all, considering that originally it was supposed to visit Wirtanen (German link, for English see maybe here), a whole different comet. That also means that for the new target, the lander's software and some components even had to be redesigned to suit the new comet's features. So, good luck to Rosetta - hitting this target would be one cool achievement.

Oh, also, this ESA page has some nice information about the mission as well.

First, Beagle2 was not an ESA project, but that's nitpicking... Second, the "main" part of the European Mars mission, the Mars Express, is working flawlessly thusfar, with spectacular imagery sent back already.

And, there have been many more succesful ESA missions. There have been many more ESA missions (click the Science Missions dropdown box). Remember the Giotto mission to the comet Halley, Smart-1 now flying to the Moon using an ion engine, Cluster examining the solar wind, Integral doing X-ray research, Ulysses examining the solar system from outside the ecliptic, and the commercially succesful Ariane launcher.

I'm in no way trying to start a flame war on who has the best space agency judging on missions (IMHO NASA would win that one hands down anytime), it just irks me that one probably failed mission-part affects the public opinion about the European space efforts so much.

First, Beagle2 was not an ESA project, but that's nitpicking... Second, the "main" part of the European Mars mission, the Mars Express, is working flawlessly thusfar, with spectacular imagery sent back already.

And, there have been many more succesful ESA missions. There have been many more ESA missions (click the Science Missions dropdown box). Remember the Giotto mission to the comet Halley, Smart-1 now flying to the Moon using an ion engine, Cluster examining the solar wind, Integral doing X-ray research, Ulysses examining the solar system from outside the ecliptic, and the commercially succesful Ariane launcher.

I'm in no way trying to start a flame war on who has the best space agency judging on missions (IMHO NASA would win that one hands down anytime), it just irks me that one probably failed mission-part affects the public opinion about the European space efforts so much.

From Rosetta's webpage: The relative speeds of the spacecraft and comet will gradually be reduced, slowing to 2 metres per second after about 90 days. If it moves slowly enough, the comet's weak gravity can hold it in.

if we could have picked any landing site on mars, it would be Opportunity's.

Actually, if we could pick *any* landing site, there are *a lot* more interesting ones on Mars to choose from. You have to decode Nasa-speak - what they're really saying is: "to be on the safe side, we always land in very flat regions, which tend to be (geologically speaking) rather boring. We are thrilled to have stumbled upon a flat region that looks *different* from all the other flat regions we've landed in before."

In other words, we've graduated from Kansas to Oklahoma. The Rockies, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Rift Valley, Himalaya, etc. of Mars are still waiting for us to develop more robust landers and capable all-terrain robots. Check out ESA's first Mars Express images for a taste of some more dramatic scenery. Can't wait till we get a rover into *that*!

- nic

Actually as far as I know they had to go through the ESA Mars orbiter "Mars Express" to make contact with Spirit. Oh and btw...

One of the main targets of the Mars Express mission is to discover the presence of water in one of its chemical states. Through the initial mapping of the South polar cap on 18 January, OMEGA, the combined camera and infrared spectrometer, has already revealed the presence of water ice and carbon dioxide ice.

I mean, like the parent poster explained, water was always expected and to some extents already discovered. A good read can be found at:
here [nasa.gov]

Man dont even dare to compare that image on the article you posted with this one.

Your position should only be to acknowledge the fact and give the proper credit for the achievement. Or else it sounds its like you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. I can argue either theres was no need for NASA to say there was water once in a time before. Because for centuries, even before America was known ppl, Copernicus, Galileo, et all middle-age astronomists, were already saying what NASA said last year.

"probably there was life (or water for that matter) on mars"

now you have the proves, atleast visual ones, so just render to the facts.

Besides, the discovery of water on Mars is the single most important discovery in terms of what it will allow us to do in the future. Even if primitive life was discovered the presence of water is a greater discovery because of its engineering potential.

There's a picture that shows a canyon that supposedly was formed by an ancient river. They say the black stuff at the bottom of the canyon is sediment, brought there by flowing water. So apparantly there actually was liquid water running in rivers at some point in mars' history - and that is the news. As usual, the interesting parts were obmitted for the /. writeup..

Here's a more poisitive take on co-operation, courtesy of your European friends.
ESA

More like an eighth of the mission. There's still plenty to do. It's a shame Beagle appears to have failed, because Pilinger's playing of the media focused the public's view of the mission solely on Beagle.

I do hate the way the JPL mission and the Mars Express missions have been compared in the media (or rather haven't been). They are really very different missions.
NASA spent their $820m getting two rovers to Mars.
ESA spent 300m. getting an orbiter to Mars, and sending a 35m lander to the surface.

Still, worst comes to the worst, the Mars success rate has been about 1 in 3, so Opportunity must be secretly rubbing it's robotic claws in glee.

But for now, we'll hope Spirit stays alive. And for the optimists out there, next attempt to contact Beagle is Sunday.

Here it is.

Are you all blind ? Everything is here.

Here it is.

Are you all blind ? Everything is here.

good point. I didn't realize it was such a low orbit already -- LMO (low mars orbit). Yep, even halving it to 150km would make the perp. enlargement bigger than the speed-increase-resolution-loss. I guess they've already maximized this problem and that's how they got that orbit...

ok... since some people still seem convinced that beagle 2 was the main point of the misson, check this news release from ESA dating back to 1998 where they endorse the initial mars express payload:
News release
No mention of beagle 2. "Possibility left open of a small lander"...

Looking at this picture(small) (Large), I see what looks to be 3 high areas that seem to have their tops sliced off. They look to be flat, almost like what you'd see here on Earth, like Devil's Tower.

I'm wondering if these features were caused by similiar forces. Given the apparent size of the features on Mars, I'm thinking that whatever happened, it must've been big. Or maybe it was just gravity, given that these features are part of the canyon wall.

I'm no geologist, or rocket scientist by any means. However it looks pretty interesting to me.

wbs.

Looking at this picture(small) (Large), I see what looks to be 3 high areas that seem to have their tops sliced off. They look to be flat, almost like what you'd see here on Earth, like Devil's Tower.

I'm wondering if these features were caused by similiar forces. Given the apparent size of the features on Mars, I'm thinking that whatever happened, it must've been big. Or maybe it was just gravity, given that these features are part of the canyon wall.

I'm no geologist, or rocket scientist by any means. However it looks pretty interesting to me.

wbs.

There's non-composited versions of the images available - there's still that weird, slightly 'painted' look to them, but I imagine it's partly due to us being brought up on grainy, monochrome images from other probes. :)

I found a page with some fairly in-depth information on the camera. There's also some other images that it's taken, of both Mars from a distance and of Earth. It's interesting that the instrument was originally designed for the ill-fated Russian Mars 96 mission - but the quality is still impressive now.

It's a big instrument - it comes in at a hefty 21.2kg, compared with the 60kg Beagle 2. Still, 2m resolution is rather impressive...

umm, i wasn't flame-baiting

there is something very unnatural looking about the hi-res image

If you fly lower, you'll make more orbits per day, making the images zip past the camera even faster. With a pushbroom-type sensor such as this appears to be, this can actually lead to worse resolution in the direction of travel. But, being closer would make the perpindicular direction a little better -- it's all about compromises.

Galileo is not mentioned yet?

As has been done in the past with Soviet missions, both Mars and Venus will get probes, using some spares and the design from the first launch for the second probe.

In this case, the second probe will be launched as Venus Express. This will be launched in Nov 2005, also by Soyuz from Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazachstan.

Soyuz is working out so well, that ESA is building Soyuz launch facilities in French Guiana - which is of course MUCH nearer the equator and is E.U. territory. (It's a problem for Russia that Baikonur is no longer in their territory).

Then there's Rosetta, this flagship mission will be launched in a month or so. It's a mission to chase a comet, taking TEN years to catch it! It will also flyby at least one asteroid.

As has been done in the past with Soviet missions, both Mars and Venus will get probes, using some spares and the design from the first launch for the second probe.

In this case, the second probe will be launched as Venus Express. This will be launched in Nov 2005, also by Soyuz from Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazachstan.

Soyuz is working out so well, that ESA is building Soyuz launch facilities in French Guiana - which is of course MUCH nearer the equator and is E.U. territory. (It's a problem for Russia that Baikonur is no longer in their territory).

Then there's Rosetta, this flagship mission will be launched in a month or so. It's a mission to chase a comet, taking TEN years to catch it! It will also flyby at least one asteroid.

And I agree ATV is an excellent idea, but then I'd say that - I'm working on it ;-)

ESA has a long term exploration program called Aurora that aims to take humans to the Moon by 2020 and Mars by 2030. This was announced some time ago, well ahead of Bush's proclamation. The nearer term goals include ExoMars, a long-duration rover, and a Mars sample return mission with the ambitious launch date of 2011.

A better better link

They are together

"Launched in October 1997, Huygens is currently in space, hitching a ride on NASA's Cassini spacecraft." (2nd last paragraph)

A little flash animation for those confused about ion drives: http://www.esa.int/export/esaSC/SEM3K81P4HD_index_ 0.html . Of course depends on mass, momentum, etc. too....

Looking at the ESA site, if we're thinking of going back to the moon soon and possibly bringing back a bunch of old Apollo systems, why don't we buy some of the ESA's ATV's and slap on a larger booster? seems like it'd be a nicer ride (once modified) than the old Apollo craft. With the added bonus of being a spacecraft that is actually in production (no need to try and re-invient the wheel).

SMART-1 is part of the Small Missions for Advanced Research in Technology; these missions are specifically designed to develop new space-based technologies. A sister mission, due for launch in June 2007 is SMART-2 , which will be a testbed for laser ranging. The technology will eventually be put to use by LISA (Laser Interferometry Space Antenna), a proposed ESA mission intended to look for the gravitational waves predicted by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

The knowhow obtained from SMART-2 will also prove instrumental in developing ESA's Infra-Red Space Interferometer, known informally as Darwin. Darwin, part of ESA's Horizons 2000 programme, will consist of 6 infra-red telescopes flying in precise formation, with the aim of performing nulling interferometry of nearby solar-type stars. Darwin will be sensitive enough to detect the infra-red absorption-line signatures of water, ozone and carbon dioxide in the atmospheres terrestrial-sized planets orbiting one of these stars; these signatures, if detected together, would amount to strong evidence for extraterrestrial life.

SMART-1 is part of the Small Missions for Advanced Research in Technology; these missions are specifically designed to develop new space-based technologies. A sister mission, due for launch in June 2007 is SMART-2 , which will be a testbed for laser ranging. The technology will eventually be put to use by LISA (Laser Interferometry Space Antenna), a proposed ESA mission intended to look for the gravitational waves predicted by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

The knowhow obtained from SMART-2 will also prove instrumental in developing ESA's Infra-Red Space Interferometer, known informally as Darwin. Darwin, part of ESA's Horizons 2000 programme, will consist of 6 infra-red telescopes flying in precise formation, with the aim of performing nulling interferometry of nearby solar-type stars. Darwin will be sensitive enough to detect the infra-red absorption-line signatures of water, ozone and carbon dioxide in the atmospheres terrestrial-sized planets orbiting one of these stars; these signatures, if detected together, would amount to strong evidence for extraterrestrial life.

SMART-1 is part of the Small Missions for Advanced Research in Technology; these missions are specifically designed to develop new space-based technologies. A sister mission, due for launch in June 2007 is SMART-2 , which will be a testbed for laser ranging. The technology will eventually be put to use by LISA (Laser Interferometry Space Antenna), a proposed ESA mission intended to look for the gravitational waves predicted by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

The knowhow obtained from SMART-2 will also prove instrumental in developing ESA's Infra-Red Space Interferometer, known informally as Darwin. Darwin, part of ESA's Horizons 2000 programme, will consist of 6 infra-red telescopes flying in precise formation, with the aim of performing nulling interferometry of nearby solar-type stars. Darwin will be sensitive enough to detect the infra-red absorption-line signatures of water, ozone and carbon dioxide in the atmospheres terrestrial-sized planets orbiting one of these stars; these signatures, if detected together, would amount to strong evidence for extraterrestrial life.

The ESA also has a probe named Huygens headed for Titan, the largest moon of Saturn that will land on the surface in 2005 and send back photos. Titan is the only moon in our solar system with a thick atmosphere. It is believed it may be similar to that of Earth's millions of years ago.

Well, now we know why Beagle 2 didn't survive...
http://www.esa.int/export/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SE MPM75V9ED_1.html

At 10m resolution, one or two pixels in the images will have some light from Spirit, yes. =)

But I think the joining forces around Mars link from the main page is very cool.

From the article:

Agustin Chicarro, ESA's Project Scientist for Mars Express, said: "This is the first time that two space agencies are co-operating on another planet with two spacecraft. It is remarkable to know that one is in orbit and one is on the surface, both taking measurements to complement each other."

It's only ONE aspect of the Mars Express mission.

On the website we can read:

The Mars Express Orbiter will:
image the entire surface at high resolution (10 m/pixel) and selected areas at super resolution (2 m/pixel)
produce a map of the mineral composition of the surface at 100 m resolution
map the composition of the atmosphere and determine its global circulation
determine the structure of the sub-surface to a depth of a few kilometres
determine the effect of the atmosphere on the surface
determine the interaction of the atmosphere with the solar wind

Beagle2 failed but it was only 20% of the mission.

Can't see a beagle, but I saw at least five new faces in the hi-res version

Re:I'm so fucking pissed

Don't be. At any rate the Europeans are still doing science - I'm sure they'll get better at it with time (ahem.. Beagle 2) - but they see the value of science over flash.

The original Hubble mission goal was to operate for 20 years. It was launched in 1990. Without another service it is estimated that it will fail in about 2007. 17 years isn't bad, 85% of it's design.

The Space Shuttle is the only vehicle that can service the Hubble. But the Shuttles have been found to need a complete overhaul (read: being stripped down and rebuilt from the metal up) before they would be safe to fly again. It is not worth rebuilding the unreliable, creeky Shuttle fleet (and risk asking humans to fly them) just to extend the Hubble's lifespan another 3 years.

Shuttles are 23 years old. Now is a good time to cut losses, retire them and make way for newer, more efficient technologies.

The space vehicles of the future will be simpler, cheaper, more capable and more reliable than the Shuttle ever was. For example: Now there are metal alloys that the skin can be built of that can take the heat of re-entry directly - no need for complicated ceramic tiles that need replacing between every mission.

And that doesn't mean that other big telescopes aren't going to be made once Hubble is gone - the biggest earth based telescopes on the drawing board will use adaptive optics and interferometry - and will be able to take sharper images than the hubble. They'll also be infinitely more upgradable because they're on the ground and any non-space-hardened very delicate, large, heavy, expensive instrument can be easily installed.

Read Pedro Duque's blog during the Cervantes mission. The Russians used ballpoint pens.

Europe already has a program albiet not everything is in place yet called Aurora whose eventually goal is a manned mission to the moon the to mars.

It seems this could fit really well with america's goals, so hopefully they'll partner up, it'll be alot easier ont he esa as frankly they don't have the means to get a man into space yet.

Hi,

since Mars Express - which I'd consider to be the most important part of the project - is working perfectly, there will be a stereo-camera with a resolution of 2m (Meters) orbiting the planet.
This might be enough to see what happened to the poor little doggie.

There are a lot of great instruments aboard Mars Express, you can find all the information about them on The ESA Site

k2r