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Here is the original apache video...

And another link.

Good video to watch when feeling too positive about the future of humanity.

I don't agree with most of your post, but that's ok - we're each entitled to our own political philosophies.

Bush recognizes that this is a war, the bad guys started it, and it's only going to get worse unless we start fighting back.

But this line I had to address - the only "war" we have is the "war" the Bush Administration made up. The "war on terror" is no more of a war than the "war on drugs", and the "bad guys" didn't start it - that's just the simple black and white picture the Bush Administration (well, the whole federal government, really) wants you to believe.

You want to talk about who started what, you should take a look at American foreign policy in the middle east over the last few decades, particularly concerning covert intelligence operations that sponsored or supported coup d'etats and gov't overthrows.

Such a sordid history doesn't justify the 9/11 attacks, but you have to realize the context they took place in - not "evil-doers" who simply hate American freedoms, but violent people who are tired of the US interfering in their national affairs and overthrowing their governments to battle the Soviets or securing the flow of affordable oil.

I don't agree with most of your post, but that's ok - we're each entitled to our own political philosophies.

Bush recognizes that this is a war, the bad guys started it, and it's only going to get worse unless we start fighting back.

But this line I had to address - the only "war" we have is the "war" the Bush Administration made up. The "war on terror" is no more of a war than the "war on drugs", and the "bad guys" didn't start it - that's just the simple black and white picture the Bush Administration (well, the whole federal government, really) wants you to believe.

You want to talk about who started what, you should take a look at American foreign policy in the middle east over the last few decades, particularly concerning covert intelligence operations that sponsored or supported coup d'etats and gov't overthrows.

Such a sordid history doesn't justify the 9/11 attacks, but you have to realize the context they took place in - not "evil-doers" who simply hate American freedoms, but violent people who are tired of the US interfering in their national affairs and overthrowing their governments to battle the Soviets or securing the flow of affordable oil.

By Americans?

I'm going to ignore your accusations that the majority of the protestors hate American troops, because it's not getting us anywhere.

Oh, incidentally, check these out. These are new.

"Solidarity with Iraqi Resistance Against Occupation by all means necessary LEAVE IRAQ ALONE"

"Call for Mutiny of US FORCES in Iraq"

"Support the Iraqi Resistance Movement!"

"Solidarity with the Iraqi Resistance! Solidarity with Anti-Imperialism Everywhere!"

"Support the Iraqi resistance. Australian troops out of Iraq." (Apparently Oz has problems with traitors, too.)

Gee. I wonder where I could have ever gotten the idea that "protesters" advocate the killing of American troops.

I have never even heard of "Kaye report", I don't keep that close tabs on what goes on in US Senate.

KAY: Senator Warner, I think the world is far safer with the disappearance and the removal of Saddam Hussein. I have said I actually think this may be one of those cases where it was even more dangerous than we thought.

I think when we have the complete record you're going to discover that after 1998 it became a regime that was totally corrupt. Individuals were out for their own protection. And in a world where we know others are seeking WMD, the likelihood at some point in the future of a seller and a buyer meeting up would have made that a far more dangerous country than even we anticipated with what may turn out not to be a fully accurate estimate.

"...According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention. ... That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war."

Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser in 'Le Nouvel Observateur' (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

So, um, you were saying...? I think we really do have a cultural problem in this country with swallowing the spider to get rid of the fly.

It happened in 2000.

Click here

What they are doing with removing votes recently.

How they are preparing to use E-voting to do it again...

And to the guy who modded it flamebait....Fuck you

Yeah sure, Bush "won" ... after thousands of mainly black (and likely Gore) voters were disenfranchised .

1) Iraq Death Toll
The Age.
And yeah, there are mass graves, lots of them. But do we right a wrong by killing more people? It's easy to win a war, but much harder to win the peace. There's also a very good reason the humanitarian argument for invasion wasn't used before the war. Because it would have directly led to the argument why the US was invading Iraq rather than a dozen other countries with worse human-rights records.

2) We know Iraq had WMD, US supplied them and the UN destroyed them. The question is whether Iraq had a WMD program capable of threatening the US or surrounding countries. These things aren't easy to hide. You require facilities, research papers, scientists, engineers, factories. The fact that these have not been found indicates that Iraq wasn't a threat. After all, Saddam could have ordered the destruction, but with a realistic weapons program, traces of evidence will be left behind. Soil samples tainted, research papers unburnt, people willing to talk for a new life in the US. You can't just dig a hole and hide a weapons program that was supposedly a threat to the world.
Anyway, you can't prove the non-existence of something. There's anthrax in soil, but there's a big difference between having a small sample of anthrax and having a weaponised anthrax along with the weapons systems to target, launch and the personnel to run it.
Anyway, where's your evidence? David Kay seems to disagree with you multiple times.

3) I'm unsure, about this, someone else would have to answer this.

4a) Okay, again, you want me to prove evidence that something doesn't exist. That's impossible. Saddam did provide some evidence of the destruction of some of the weapons, he simply couldn't provide all the evidence. That seems realistic to me, records get lost, misprinted, mislaid, incorrectly filed, not filed at all. Lack of evidence of destruction does not equate to no destruction occuring.

4b) Oh, do you mean "Ansar al-Islam"? A terrorist group situated in non Saddam-controlled Iraq, you know, the northern no-fly zone. With doubts whether there are actually any real links between Saddam and terrorist groups here and here.

5) No, there's ill-will in Australia (and UK and Spain) and our government entered the war even though the majority of public opinion and the parliament opposed the war. Secondly, France and especially Germany has historically been relatively pro-American. France may not be bending over friendly, but they've always been relatively friendly.

You're right: what's the point of ridding a country from a vicious dictator who brutalizes his own population, destroys the environment, instigates war and supports terrorism unless you actually get some financial benefit from it?!?

No, you are right, we should do it because it is the right thing to do. So, when does the war against Bush begin?

Joking aside, most of the people who criticize Bush and the war are making just your point, though you seem to have missed it: We belive they started the war for their own financial benifit, not because of the goodness of their hearts. After all, they don't mind vicious dictators anywhere else.

• Obviously you have never lived in a country that kills its OWN citizens. For something closer to your home (assuming USA), check out the Waco atrocities committed by the government, as well as Ruby Ridge. Here is some If you are into films, you can also check out the controversial documentary on it.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the totalitarian regimes in Germany, USSR, and USA's close friends Saudi Arabia and Egypt. A couple of stories on the state of Egypt (USA's 2nd large recipient of military aid)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the damage done to civil rights activists in the 60's by the FBI and the CIA. Laws were actually changed to prevent this sort of thing.
• Obviously you have never been targetted by the police. (I have no proof of this but if you let me track you, I can find out :) )
• Obviously you are not a minority man (particularly black) living in some parts of USA. (Don't know this either. But I can easily verify this if you send your driver's license to me)
• Obviously you haven't heard of the infiltration of the FBI by organized criminals (particularly the Italian mafia in the 60's and 70's).
• Obviously you haven't heard of police fabricating information and jailing people.
• Obviously you haven't heard of the government cooking up bogus charges and jailing people. (Refer to the previous link and do your research)
• Obviously McCarthyism is not part of your collective mind.
• Obviously you haven't heard of John Ashcroft's recent decree to spy on antiwar activists.
• Obviously you believe the legal system represent justice. (I can't prove this to anyone. It is something that you will realize as you grow up and leave the cave that you have been living in--if you actually manage to do that!)
• Obviously you underestimate the power of the goverment.

CIA is one of the most evil organizations in the last 50 years. Following in the footsteps of other similar spy organizations like the SS and the KGB, the CIA is responsible for hundreads of thousands of deaths and for torturing many more.

I would urge Americans to limit their agents to WITHIN their country. Overthrowing other governments, killing innocent people, and spreading torture techniques is not my idea of defense. You want to protect your country? Use the agents to track and monitor people WITHIN your country. Sending them off to cause troubles in other countries is neither moral nor effective.

Countries where CIA has been complicit in kiling or torturing more than 10 people include El Salvador, Guatemla, Chile, Argentina, Indonesia, Iran, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and many more...

CIA blowbacks include Iraqgate (money laundering to Iraq via Banca de la Franca), Iran-Contra (no comment), Usama bin Laden (contrary to US govt propaganda, he learned all his techniques off the CIA), and so forth. Then again, nothing out of the CIA should surprise anyone. I mean, this is the same organization that saved (and was influenced by) some of the most cruel Nazi war criminals. (another story here)

I guess I just got blacklisted for that...fuck the CIA and everything that it stands for :(:(:(

Sivaram Velauthapillai

You, my friend are smoking crack, Limbaugh style.

There is no such evidence. Saddam's regime, as terrible as it was, was a sworn enemy of Al Qaeda. Perhaps there are links to "terrorist groups", but that depends on your definition of "terrorist groups" - remember one man's "terrorist" is another's "freedom fighter".

At any rate, the alleged Al Qaeda link is a non-starter, if there really was any evidence of that, there would have been very little opposition to the war in the first place, and if new evidence surfaced "Dubya" would have a field day (b/c it would get him off the hook for the lack of WMD).

The "terrorist training camps" that you refer to were actually in the area known as "Kurdistan" where Saddam had no control in the last 12 years because of "coalition"-enforced no fly zones.
Read this and be enlightened.

Don't bring Israel into the discussion here - there is nothing wrong with supporting the families of those in need - It is the lack of support and viability that creates the situation where the suicide-bomber mindset is developed.

Do you really think that people would perform suicide bombings, just so their family would get some money?

Wake up and smell the cock - get your own world view and quit relying on the closedminded imperialist neocon bullshit.

If you're asking for sources about the CIA's involvment in the 1953 coup in Iran, then I suggest the CIA's own declassified documents, compiled by the National Security Archive. Very enlightening. Basically, the democratically-elected govt. of Mossadeq was seen as too "independent", and so the CIA orchestrated a coup that placed the Shah and the Ayatollahs in power. The Ayatollahs eventually decided they didn't want to share power, and the rest is history, as they say.

Oh, and by the way, the U.S. also prompted the U.S.S.R. to invade Afghanistan by getting involved there first, contrary to the official propaganda at the time. Carter's National Security Advisor admitted as much...

The funny thing is, people were claiming that the war in Afghanistan was about oil, yet their only argument for that claim was that the US wanted this pipeline. Two years later, where's the pipeline?

They're working on it. Multibillion dollar deals don't happen overnight, especially when they have to get three countries to agree on them and deal with an ongoing war in one of the countries.

At the end of 2002, Afghan President (and UNOCOL consultant) Khamid Karzai signed an agreement with the leaders of Turkmenistan and Pakistan to begin building a 1500km trans-Afghan gas pipeline to Multan where it will join to an existing pipeline that will take it to a port in Pakistan. Here is a link to the story at the BBC. The preliminary cost of the project is $2-3.2 billion. I suspect that the lack of US control outside of the cities of Afghanistan is the reason that large scale construction hasn't begun.

Why is the pipeline important? Well, it's estimated that 16% of the world's petroleum reserves are in the Caspian Sea region. Today, only a small amount of that oil and gas is extracted for use by nearby countries because there are no major pipelines to take it to the global markets. The best routes for a pipeline go through Russia, which the West doesn't want, Iran, which the West also dislikes, or Afghanistan and Pakistan. As the previous poster mentioned, UNOCOL gave up on the pipeline project in 1998. They couldn't get the Taliban to give them what they want. Afghanistan's government is quite different after the US invasion and wants to go ahead with the pipeline.

There's another factor why the US is worried about control of Middle Eastern oil resources. Currency. Saddam made quite a profit when he started trading his oil in euros instead of dollars in 2000. Other OPEC countries like Iran are thinking about using euros instead of dollars. This may not seem important on the face of it, but the use of American currency as a standard medium of exchange is a great source of American power, one of the cornerstones of American dominance of international finance, as it was for the British before the World Wars. Other countries using dollars allows the US to export its inflation by printing more money and issuing treasury bonds at low interest rates and also helps the US to avoid facing the consequences of its large trade deficit.

Check here [globalresearch.ca] for that statue story in legible format...

I check out slashdot, anandtech and other tech and science links. Also news.google.com and csmonitor.com (Christian Science Monitor). These to get an idea of the mainstream. I can't stand CNN and such so I skip those. Then I move on to my far left political links:

From the Wilderness http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
What Really Happened http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
Centre for Research on Globalization http://www.globalresearch.ca/
Center for Cooperative Research http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/home.htm
Independent Media Center http://www.indymedia.org
Emperor's New Clothes http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/911page.htm
9-11 the people's investigation http://www.911pi.com/
Guerrilla News Network http://www.guerrillanews.com
International A.N.S.W.E.R. http://www.internationalanswer.org/
UK: The Observer (John Pilger) http://www.observer.co.uk/
UK: Independent (Robert Fisk) http://argument.independent.co.uk/

As a side note, I rarely use browser bookmarks; I keep my own index.html that I update daily, putting in references to articles I like and updating the top portion, of which the above are a subset. Then I can keep a copy of this on the internet in case I ever need it from a remote location.

When the USSR invaded Afghanistan, the United States assisted them in fighting the Soviets. link

During the Iraq-Iran war, the United States provided intelligence to the Iraqis. link

... it is only advertised with such a pretext. The easiest way to prevent more planes from crashing into buildings is to have the State Department stop financing such actions. To quote Richard Sanders (How to Start a War: The American Use of War Pretext Incidents (1848-1989):

"Because public support is so crucial to the process of initiating and waging war, the home population is also subject to deceitful stratagems. Perhaps the most common pretext for war is an apparently unprovoked enemy attack... Every time the US has gone to war, pretext incidents have been used."

Suprise! Terrorists only attack us because our Government pays them to! They both win, and we all lose. Don't believe me? Do some reading.

It seems it may be coming to that. John Aschcroft has started building the first camp for US citizens Bush and him label "enemy combatants," where their constitutional rights are revoked.

LA Times: Camps for Citizens: Ashcroft's Hellish Vision, which can also be found in the LA Times archive (for money).
Ashcroft Following Nazi Example.
Bush presses ahead with "enemy combatant".

In May, Bush unsigned the International Criminal Court (ICC) treaty which was a treaty opposing crimes against humanity. Why would Bush unsign such a treaty unless he had plans on committing crimes against humanity?

This administration truly scares me.

There is tons of evidence that the Bush administration has been heavily involved with those funding terrorism. Al Queda is a CIA trained military operation. The person funding the September 11th bombings was in Washington, DC meeting with the Bush administration starting on September 4th and was sitting down with Colin Powell discussing "terrorism" when the attacks occurred.

See Global Research or searches on Google for more information. Global research does present many different articles, some authors more credible than others in an effort to present many views. Keep that in mind when perusing their site.

Plans for an oil pipeline through Afghanistan were started by the oil industry in 1996. It is interesting that the majority of the Bush administration has oil interests. It is interesting that the people Bush proposes to put in power in Afghanistan are former employees of oil companies. It is clear that attacking Afghanistan does nothing against terrorism, but I will be very surprised if the oil industries are not heavily involved after we are done killing people there.

It is amazing how self-serving this administration is and how the mainstream media is just starting to catch up with some of this. I find it sad that most Americans are not following what is really going on; otherwise, we could impeach the Bush administration out of office. I bet most Republicans still support this bloody administration, all hail Hitler Bush!

It seems it may be coming to that. John Aschcroft has started building the first camp for US citizens Bush and him label "enemy combatants," where their constitutional rights are revoked.

LA Times: Camps for Citizens: Ashcroft's Hellish Vision, which can also be found in the LA Times archive (for money).
Ashcroft Following Nazi Example.
Bush presses ahead with "enemy combatant".

In May, Bush unsigned the International Criminal Court (ICC) treaty which was a treaty opposing crimes against humanity. Why would Bush unsign such a treaty unless he had plans on committing crimes against humanity?

This administration truly scares me.

There is tons of evidence that the Bush administration has been heavily involved with those funding terrorism. Al Queda is a CIA trained military operation. The person funding the September 11th bombings was in Washington, DC meeting with the Bush administration starting on September 4th and was sitting down with Colin Powell discussing "terrorism" when the attacks occurred.

See Global Research or searches on Google for more information. Global research does present many different articles, some authors more credible than others in an effort to present many views. Keep that in mind when perusing their site.

Plans for an oil pipeline through Afghanistan were started by the oil industry in 1996. It is interesting that the majority of the Bush administration has oil interests. It is interesting that the people Bush proposes to put in power in Afghanistan are former employees of oil companies. It is clear that attacking Afghanistan does nothing against terrorism, but I will be very surprised if the oil industries are not heavily involved after we are done killing people there.

It is amazing how self-serving this administration is and how the mainstream media is just starting to catch up with some of this. I find it sad that most Americans are not following what is really going on; otherwise, we could impeach the Bush administration out of office. I bet most Republicans still support this bloody administration, all hail Hitler Bush!

"Genetically modified seeds imposed on farmers in developing countries trigger famine and social devastation"
Sowing the Seeds of Famine in Ethiopia by Michel Chossudovsky, Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa

The above article shows exactly what happened when Ethiopia accepted GE grains from the U.S. It's a must-read for anyone involved in this current discussion about Zimbabwe. Self-appointed 'president' Robert Mugabe isn't going to let others have all the fun of ruining the peasant economy; he'd rather do that himself.

"Yeah!! There's so much oil in Afghanistan its not even funny!"

Uh, no, but there is TONS in Turkmenistan and we have been wanting a pipeline through Afghanistan for a long time now. Why do think we were so in favor of supporting a top advisor to the El Segundo, California-based UNOCAL Corporation as the interim prime minister? Haven't you been paying attention? Or do you just use what ABC McNews tells (or doesn't tell you) to form your perception of reality?

Christ, wake the fuck up. No wonder the rest of the world thinks we are ignorant jingos.

Not sarcastic at all. Calling bin Laden an ex-cia operative is more a matter of semantics than anything. The CIA considered him and some others 'friendly partners'. Partner, operative, a rose is a rose. Check out this article for some details. More education here.

Yes. Slave labor is great for humankind

Not that I agree with this article's conclusion, but I think you should read this. If you won't give China a pass on this, why should you do it for the US?

And not for developing shitload of nukes to destroy Pakistan with. It sure sounds like the kind of thing perfect for nuclear simluations. Not that I'm fond of Pakistan's idea of leveling India with Nukes.

Braving the sanctions, C-DAC has built four versions of its Param series of machines, putting India in an elite club of supercomputing nations like the United States, Japan, Israel and China.

Oh wow, it's a who's who of nuclear powers. Considering that the US hasn't ruled out bombing the shit out of Afghanistan we're certianly in good company. The U.S. sanctions thing is bogus. They are close enough to Japan, France, Israel, &c to get all the shit they need.

Please read here.. Let prey this is all fake

You think they'd have messed with 767's if they had nukes? This isn't a game.

You think they'd have done anything at all if the CIA, through Pakistan's ISI, hadn't trained them to be extremists? Like you said, this isn't a game - I just wish states and their "intelligence" arms would realize that next time someone involved with them feels like installing a military junta or training "freedom fighters" to "uphold policy". Nations in both East and West are guilty of this, and until these deadly cloak-and-dagger games of subversion and manipulation stop, there will be more incidents involving "blowback," where innocent civilians - like WTC employees, and women in Afghanistan - get caught in the crossfire of others who should know better.

And you wonder why people trust their governments less and less...