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>Isn't Java getting on in years and in need of being replaced by something more modern?

Yeah, just like C and C++ are about to be replaced (not).

Oh, and it's the top language on Sourceforge with 45k projects (C++ has 35k, and PHP 29k).

So, yeah, someone's using it. In addition to the community, 90% of Fortune 500 companies use it (that seems low to me). Also see here and here.

This is not to say Sun didn't mess up their chance to be even more dominant. Execs generally tend to want to use in the enterprise what they're using personally. Hence Windows Servers, and the current push to use consumer iPhones for corporations. Sun flubbed consumer Java.

>Isn't Java getting on in years and in need of being replaced by something more modern?

Yeah, just like C and C++ are about to be replaced (not).

Oh, and it's the top language on Sourceforge with 45k projects (C++ has 35k, and PHP 29k).

So, yeah, someone's using it. In addition to the community, 90% of Fortune 500 companies use it (that seems low to me). Also see here and here.

This is not to say Sun didn't mess up their chance to be even more dominant. Execs generally tend to want to use in the enterprise what they're using personally. Hence Windows Servers, and the current push to use consumer iPhones for corporations. Sun flubbed consumer Java.

If you're writing an app that doesn't fit in the simple CRUD model best for webapps, and you want a large dev base plus a huge amount of pre-written cross-platform libraries, Java is probably your best bet.

http://netbeans.org/features/platform/showcase.html

Moneydance is a nice cross-platform Java app. Sun blew a huge opportunity to encourage more like that.

They now (after 2 decades) have a Java app store beta for download as opposed to 1) having a web-based app store as well, and 2) just including the app store program in Java Runtime Edition like Apple would have done.

One of the most popular app store out there - Steam - does not have Java or Flash games on it. Give it a rest - a store owner is free to choose not to sell some products. You can get your Flash or Java apps from other sources.

You can get your Oracle Jave from http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp dawg.

You don't have to be vulnerable. The listed exploits were patched in Update 22, last spring.

Update available here.

DoublePlusKarmaWhoreGoodness: For best protection, run a Mozilla browser with the NoScript add-on. (AdBlockPlus and RemoveItPermanently make great complements to NoScript, too.)

You acknowledge that Software is not designed, licensed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility.

http://www.java.com/en/download/license.jsp

I really like that part of the Java EULA.

Even if the infected computer did directly cause the crash of the plane, Microsoft should put something similar in their EULA. Having this kind of disclaimer will remind people that they probably shouldn't use Windows in a system that may have lives depending on it. Its about using the right tool for the right job.

You can do this on linux as well as OSX.

.NET: http://download.microsoft.com/download/2/0/e/20e90413-712f-438c-988e-fdaa79a8ac3d/dotnetfx35.exe
DirectX: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=0cef8180-e94a-4f56-b157-5ab8109cb4f5
Java: http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp

Where is the package of the Linux libraries that I can put on the CD? Or do I need to download them one by one?

What's really unfortunate is that he's one of the very few language maintainers out there that isn't of the mentality "Rah rah! My language/tool/design-philosophy/whatever is the solution to all your problems and will take over the world tomorrow."

Care to actually provide the names of those other language maintainers, with appropriate citations, that make such claims?

Very well. They don't out and out say that exact phrase but I'm sick of languages being marketed to me like an automobile. Here are a few after a bit of Googling. I don't really have time to dig more up:

Larry Wall of Perl: "Perl is designed to give you several ways to do anything, so consider picking the most readable one. " - From the Perl Man Pages

Yukihiro Matsumoto of Ruby: "Why should you switch to Ruby? If you are happy with Perl or Python, you don't have to. But if you do feel there must be a better language, Ruby may be your language of choice." and then "I believe people want to express themselves when they program. They don't want to fight with the language. Programming languages must feel natural to programmers." From an interview. It's hard not to roll my eyes when I hear about the latest flavor of the month. Ruby's marketed as 'the most natural.'

From Sun's about Java page they claim, "Write powerful and efficient applications for mobile phones, remote processors, low-cost consumer products, and practically any other device with a digital heartbeat." As one of their reasons developers choose Java.

I'm surprised you aren't sick of languages being marketed to you as silver bullets that can solve all your problems. That's really all I see these days. No more are people considering a multitude of languages to be a toolbox you use to solve all kinds of problems but instead you see languages like Java being marketed for inappropriate things. It's like the inventor of C#, Anders Hejlsberg said, "The dream is to have a single programming model." I just don't believe that's a realistic dream.

If I were in their shoes, I would explicitly say what the language is but also explicitly say what it is not. As someone who's tried to do video analysis in Java, I've been down the "should not" path and wasted my time.

What I am wondering: if Google OS is essentially "boot into your browser", then why would I need to write things in a slow JavaScript, if there is a fast Java itself? Android makes sense, but making applications (web/ajax stuff) within an application (browser)? What is wrong to get a 10M JRE from http://www.java.com/ install it and have it running now and today in high performance even in 3-4 years old laptop, rather then get latest netbook on Atom 1.6GHz and cry for bloated Firefox?.. Anyone?

OK, I do lots of Ajax programming in ExtJS style as well as GWT, as well as plain Java. GWT is great, yes, Ajax works everything foobar. But wait a minute, why I do Ajax? Right, because JRE is not everywhere and users needs to install it. But if you go with a Chrome OS, you are going to install it, right? What's wrong to just install latest JRE then?

One more thing: JavaScript isn't really that great as it is imagined. It is slow and still not really standard everywhere. Essentially, browser is a VM for JavaScript, which would be the same if you run Java bytecode on your JRE. The difference, however, that you can do nearly everything with a plain Java, while you can not really do much with JavaScript (e.g. write a multimedia player). To do so, you will still need mix it with other stuff, like Adobe Flash or Microsoft *cough* Silverlight *cough*. The only why one would prefer to use JavaScript: dynamic language. But hey... if you want your Java application to be written in JavaScript (in style "look, Ma, no Java!" because I love dynamic languages), then get Rhino engine and call your Swing stuff from there, then run on your netbook, using a webservices on your servers.

Anyone correct me, please?

Well hey - it had copy and paste.

But it's still unknown as to which of them will finally get Java support first.

To be honest, I think the comparison understates the revolution of modern technology by limiting itself to the Iphone. Nevermind $199 - with any old dirt cheap phone these days, I can browse the Internet, navigate with Google maps, and store GBs of music, photos and other data. (Without being locked into a carrier!) And the comparison of 30 million to one million is very misleading - the Commodore 64 is the single best selling computer, and was one of the mainstream home platforms in its day. The Iphone however isn't even close - far from the market shrinking, there are now something like 2.1 billion Java phones out there. That's before you consider the range of choice offered by PC laptops and netbooks.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's shaking up the industry, but on the other hand it's clear that it is a substantial market, and a different kind of market.

So, "Product that's been on the market for years has a 'substantial' market" - not exactly quite the same headline is it? The same claim could be made for every product in existence that wasn't an outright flop. So if this is really newsworthy, why don't we see this news article for every other product out there too?

Different kind of market? To what? To consoles? Well of course - because it's not a console. You might as well say it's a different kind of market to toasters.

I can see it now: "Random Motorola phone shakes up the video game industry".

- in the comments: "Well I wouldn't go so far as to say it's shaking up the industry, but it's clearly a substantial market, and a different kind of market".

You can make smaller games (and yes, this certainly favors smaller shops) for less money that sell for smaller amounts but come out more often and still do well.

Allow me to be the first to welcome you to the 21st Century (that the mobile phone market allowed game developers to do this started years before Apple joined the club). The tactic of selling some crappy tetris clone for a few dollars, and making money from it, was around for years. And those sensible to target open standards such as Java can get a market of 2.1 billion phones.

How big was that Iphone market again?

A shame that Apple don't support open standards though. At this rate, even the Amiga will have Java before the Iphone does...

I'm not trying to grief, and it is certainly consistent with reality, but is this documented anywhere?

Sure. Only Apple can release java for mac. Something about look & feel and/or quality assurance.

http://blog.cr0.org/2009/05/write-once-own-everyone.html
http://java.dzone.com/news/critical-mac-osx-java

Look at the "java downloads for all operating systems" webpage:

http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp

Notice that you can't download java for mac from Sun?

I stand corrected. A quick visit to http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp shows that Java for Apple does, indeed, need to come from Apple. What I don't get, is why, as Apple still updates OS 10.3, they would not provide Java. Is that Apple's decision, or Sun's? honest question, not fanboism

All this plugin does is speed up loading of Java applets. Its benign, and Sun provides instructions on how to turn it off: http://www.java.com/en/download/help/quickstarter.xml .

Sun offers steps to disable the Java Quick Starter, though. And those unexplained Ubuntu extensions can be removed by uninstalling the "ubufox" package (if I recall correctly; I haven't been using Ubuntu for a long time now.)

Don't you think you're being a bit melodramatic? To run a compiled Java app (presumably like this one) you need one thing: the JRE, not a huge amount of "compilers and libraries," the only libraries needed will be bundled with the app or with the JRE itself, you know, kind of how almost all Windows apps do it. You need 0 compilers. So basically, all you need is a JRE, just like to run a .NET app you need the .NET application framework, only that one is very version specific, while the Java one is not. For all intents and purposes, downloading any old JRE should run nearly any Java app, since almost everyone compiles to Java 1.5 (some people still compile to 1.4.2 and that's ancient).

Getting a JRE is as easy as going to http://java.com/ and clicking that honking huge blue button in the middle of the page, about as easy as getting Firefox, in fact.

As for Java being "slow," really? You haven't let this die yet? You realise a huge part of this WWW "fad" is run by Java based networking stuff, right? You use it everyday and probably don't even know it when you do, it's likely on your cellphone and other small devices.

You sound like Linux basher, calling Linux a cruddy fad coughed up by someone in their garage, touting problems that no version of Linux has had in over a decade.

You'd think that Apple are successful and hip enough to not try to shoehorn Quicktime installs with their crap bloatware, either. The tactic reeks of the golden era of adware.

But, to be fair, SUN is now trying to do the same thing with Yahoo toolbar in its JRE installs! Thank you guys, for pushing us towards free software.

It's because they also included Java in the Google Pack.

See here: http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/sun_toolbar.html

"Under the agreement, Sun will include the Google Toolbar as an option in its consumer downloads of the Java Runtime Environment on http://java.com./ In addition, the companies have agreed to explore opportunities to promote and enhance Sun technologies, like the Java Runtime Environment and the OpenOffice.org productivity suite available at http://www.openoffice.org./"

That GUI looks to be implemented in Java - a quick google seems to validate that impression.

Java's licensing agreement, under the paragraph 3. Restrictions. states:

"You acknowledge that Licensed Software is not designed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility."

So, Java's no good for a nuclear facility, but it can operate a black hole generating facility just fine.

If you weren't concerned before ... now might be a good time.

1. Get a copy of Head First Java .
2. Download the latest version of Java.
3. Download Netbeans or Eclipse (I prefer Netbeans, but I use Eclipse at the office, and I don't have a problem recommending either one). Make sure you get a version that includes either Glassfish (Netbeans) or Tomcat (Eclipse), so you can run some servlets.
4. Start going through the book. You'll learn the Java syntax and conventions in the first part, then learn about web development. Since you've got web development experience, you can probably skip a lot of the intro (web apps use the HTTP request/response cycle, are stateless unless you stick stuff in the session, etc.) and dig into some JSPs.
5. Once you can get data from the browser to the server, pick up JDBC and stick it in the database. If you've used ODBC with VB, then you'll have no trouble picking up JDBC.
6. Pick up a Spring book (I'll recommend Spring in Action) and learn about dependency injection. It's a pretty simple concept, but you'll be amazed what you can do with it.

That should give you enough to get started and maybe even get your first Java gig. Hibernate's good to learn, too, but on most of the projects I've been on, you don't use it in day-to-day development (that is, you don't have to reconfigure or redeploy anything, unless your data model changes). With Spring, just about everything you write will require that you modify a context file or two, so you need to know what's going on.

Microsoft's support for Java on Windows theoretically ended in 2007, and if you want to run Java apps on Windows you go to http://www.java.com/en/index.jsp and download Java.

If you're on Linux and you want to run Java apps, you go to the same place and download an RPM.

On Solaris, of course, you go... guess where... and download Java.

Last time I installed it on FreeBSD, I used the Linux binaries in Linus emulation mode. There's a FreeBSD Java project now.

And Sun has recently announced that they'll be supporting Java on the iPhone.

But if you have a Mac, Sun tells you to bugger off and ask Apple.

I'm sure there's some good historical reason for this weird exception, but given that Sun's supporting Java on much smaller platforms than Mac OS X, wouldn't it be in Sun's interest to take on the Mac as well if whatever legacy business agreement with Apple isn't working out? If they did that, then possibly it'd even become possible to get up-to-date Java support for older versions of OS X.

How about it, Sun, are you willing to put your programmers where your mouth is?

Ubuntu's repository support for Java and WINE are a little spotty, but you're not necessarily limited to that. What I do on my Ubuntu machines (Feisty and Dapper) is just grab the self-extracting installer from Sun. You can find instructions here. Granted, it's not as clean or as nice as the repository, but if you absolutely have to have Java support, it's not a bad way to go.

Add a victory for embedded Java, too. I imagine a Mars rover written completely in C would have core dumped long ago.

http://java.com/en/everywhere/marsrover.jsp/ Runs on open source no wonder it just keeps on going.

We have this. It is called Java. And the performance just screams.
http://www.java.com/en/games/

It is Java http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language) , so by design it will work on any modern console. My Wii w/Opera and Java, my Mac, my Vista box, or my Suse box.

Personally, I like the Flash ones better;
http://www.addictinggames.com/whackyourex.html

(Note, sarcasm implied)

You mean Yosemite Sam with a dunce cap??

Sun's Java Micro Edition technology forms the platform for Blu-ray's advanced content delivery capabilities.

Except that if Yahoo weren't so lazy, they could re-code all those games in Flash and work on more a lot more users' computers by default. It's not like Yahoo Games is using that Java to do anything that you couldn't do in Flash.

They could recode all their games in Flash, they could recode all their games in Javascript - BUT THEY DON'T NEED TO.

I also forgot to mention that the crappier Sun's Java VM becomes, the less likely people are to download it. Right now it's like 130 MB .

No idea where you get your 130MB figure, the (MS Windows) figure from Sun is 7MB-13MB.

I think he was referring to this site which is the one that most people link to when they want to tell someone to install Java.. because Sun recommends you link to this site.

Anyway, I tried java.com, using Mozilla Firefox, and it gave me this page which is really quite good. One thing I gotta ask though, why is Sun asking me to install an unsigned extension? Why can't they go get a signing certificate already?

• Openoffice.org (use word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, database, and similar applications)
• Picasa (view/edit photos)

Internet Tools

• FireFox (browse Web sites)
• Gaim (chat with users of AIM, YIM, MSN, IRC, etc.)
• Thunderbird (e-mail)
• Pegasus Mail (e-mail)
• Macromedia Flash Player (watch Flash animations within Web browser)
• Java Plugin (run Java applications inside Web browser)

Basic Tools

• 7Zip (compress/decompress files)
• EditPad Lite (edit text files)
• vim/gvim (edit text files--advanced)
• Adobe Acrobat Reader (view PDF files)
• PDF Creator (create PDF files)

Security Tools

• ZoneAlarm (firewall - detect unwanted Internet access)
• Avira Antivirus (detect/remove viruses)
• ADAware Personal SE (detect/remove spyware)
• SpyBot Search & Destroy (detect/remove spyware)
• HiJackThis (detect/remove spyware)
• Discombobulator (make Windows more secure)
• Shoot the Messenger (make Windows more secure)
• Unplug-n-pray (make Windows more secure)
• PGP (encrypt/decrypt files or e-mail for privacy) - see admin for more details

Advanced Tools

• Virtual CD-ROM Control Panel for Windows XP (mount ISO images as filesystems) from MSDN
• IMAPSize (manage/search/backup an IMAP mailbox)

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I'd say that all three are true about you.

But don't take my anonymous word for it. Go listen to an interview with an actual game designer:

http://www.java.com/en/levelup/index.jsp

PEBKAC.

You're assuming everyone is going to Sun's Java developer website. If you google for "java download" or go to java.com and click the big honking arrow on the top of the page (or whichever way most of the consumers do), you end up here:

http://www.java.com/en/download/index.jsp

This page has exactly one download button that points to a download which in turn just happens to be the JRE. I fail to see how you end up on a page with Netbeans if you're looking to download Java and don't automatically start from java.sun.com.

um, http://www.java.com/ is the place to go if you're an end-user just seeking a JRE, not http://java.sun.com/.

Just send them to http://www.java.com/. It's dead simple from there.

Except the version of Java on www.java.com is still Java 5 release 9. So it appears Java 6 is only partially released.

www.java.com -> first link you read, "Download now". Two clicks, no NetBeans. java.sun.com is for developers, it's reasonable that they angle it towards them.

http://www.java.com/en/javahistory/timeline.jsp

Are you sure? There are a number of technologies available for Linux & Mac which could easily be (and in many cases have been) attack vectors of the "download and run arbitrary code" type.

Well, let's see, I use Javascript based applications all the time, like Google Maps or Gmail. I use Java based applications approximately, oh, let's say, NEVER.

Plus, if Java is so much less complicated than JavaScript, why is the Java Runtime Environment 16MB while Mozilla Firefox is 4.9MB?

I'd much rather have JavaScript than Java. JavaScript has proven itself as a useful technology, while Java has just proven itself to be a great way to waste hard drive space.

Is Java installed by default? Because installing Java for Linux is a massive pain the ass. I can see all the power users now, downloading their favorite distro, installing, deciding to get Firefox - then they wanna do a speed test at DSLReports. Uh oh, need Java - screw it, I'm going back to Windows.

(Unless I'm doing something wrong myself, in which case I am most certain that I will be corrected.)

Sun's java.com website still has LimeWire: http://java.com/en/desktop/limewire.jsp and a banner for downloading it was recently on the java.com front page.

There are lots of extensions with memory leaks and other serious problems. Be sure you're not using an extension on that list if you're having problems.

Plugins, especially Flash, have also been known to cause problems such as high memory use and 100% CPU use after waking up from hiberation. Be sure to get the latest Macromedia, Java, and Acrobat plugins.

License to Distribute Software. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and restrictions and exceptions set forth in the Software README file, including, but not limited to the Java Technology Restrictions of these Supplemental Terms, Sun grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license without fees to reproduce and distribute the Software, provided that (i) you distribute the Software complete and unmodified and only bundled as part of, and for the sole purpose of running, your Programs, (ii) the Programs add significant and primary functionality to the Software, (iii) you do not distribute additional software intended to replace any component(s) of the Software, (iv) you do not remove or alter any proprietary legends or notices contained in the Software, (v) you only distribute the Software subject to a license agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in this Agreement, and (vi) you agree to defend and indemnify Sun and its licensors from and against any damages, costs, liabilities, settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees) incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any third party that arises or results from the use or distribution of any and all Programs and/or Software.

Java Technology Restrictions. You may not create, modify, or change the behavior of, or authorize your licensees to create, modify, or change the behavior of, classes, interfaces, or subpackages that are in any way identified as "java", "javax", "sun" or similar convention as specified by Sun in any naming convention designation.

That means that you can't also distribute e.g. gcj or GNU Classpath. The license isn't exactly clear on whether it means that you can't distribute Sun's JRE together with gcj or whether distributing Sun's software means you can't distribute gcj at all -- ever. It's also not clear exactly what they mean by "software intended to replace any component(s) of the Software". In the worst case, that could apply to any software that performs the same function as some part of the JVM, the byte compiler, the class library etc. Does distributing Swing mean you can't distribute GTK?

Maybe we'll finally see an AMD64 Java plugin for Firefox.

"And since users need to jump through quite a few hoops to get Java installed (don't say "it's easy" - for most people anything beyond using their package manager is too high a hurdle), you can't assume it will be available on desktops in general."

http://www.java.com/en/download/help/5000010300.xm l*

Your "It's too hard" argument applies to Flash, and Adobe, amoung other popular plugins. Experience show's that open-sourcing wasn't needed, and that exaggerating the difficulty is a poor way of making a point.

*The Linux installation in keeping with the nature of the platform is slightly more complex.