2007 Java Predictions

Java's dead! by Rik+Sweeney · 2006-12-17 01:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

I read this on a messageboard years ago, it still makes me laugh to this day:

No one uses Java anymore, it's all flash these days.

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Summation 2

Re:Java's dead! by VGfort · 2006-12-17 03:33 · Score: 1

Well they were right in one respect, people don't use Applets very often anymore. JavaScript and Flash took over all the small useful stuff. Applets are mostly games and chat rooms. Whether or not JSP will end up being used more often for websites is anyones guess, but I think it would be several years before we can really tell. I'm not into Application Development, so I wont talk about that aspect of Java. :p
Re:Java's dead! by banerjek · 2006-12-17 03:33 · Score: 0, Flamebait

No one uses Java anymore, it's all flash these days.
For individual web sites and popular software, maybe. However, there are plenty of specialized applications that have taken many years to develop that are written in Java.

I've never been a fan of the language. Performance is terrible, and moving an app from one VM to another often causes serious problems. The cross platform claims have consistently been exaggerated.

There is too much invested already in it just to disappear, and I certainly can't see everything just going to Flash, though that definitely has many applications. Predictions of a long slow decline are spot on.

A decline and death are not the same thing. I keep hearing C is dead. Losing popularity, sure, but it will be around for a very long time.
Re:Java's dead! by Ngarrang · 2006-12-17 03:34 · Score: 0, Redundant

Java can be used for more than just web pages. I use a great little program called FreeMind that is written in Java. It is a stand-alone app. Java has a lot more uses for it and it is being used more wide-spread than some might believe.

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Bearded Dragon
Re:Java's dead! by msobkow · 2006-12-17 03:35 · Score: 4, Funny

Cornell: 'The open-sourcing of Java will have no effect whatsoever on Java's slow decline in favor of dynamic languages (Ruby, Python) and C#';

Apparently Cornell doesn't realize C#/.Net is just Microsoft's implementation of a p-machine and framework, the same as Java. With such insightful educators, it is no wonder some of the newer computer science students don't have an adequate background in abstraction and conceptualization of systems.

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I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Re:Java's dead! by Orange+Crush · 2006-12-17 04:29 · Score: 1

I keep hearing C is dead. Losing popularity, sure, but it will be around for a very long time.

Are there any other languages that could actually replace C? Sure, there are plenty of high level languages that are better for most application development, but is there anything (practical) you can build an operating system out of, short of machine or assembly? (honest question, I really have no idea)
Re:Java's dead! by samkass · 2006-12-17 04:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

Performance is terrible, and moving an app from one VM to another often causes serious problems. Uh, what year did you last try Java? Java performance is pretty much on par with any other language these days. Sometimes it beats traditional languages, sometimes it's a little slower. The dynamic compilation causes minor slowdowns the first time something's run, but the fact that it can compile and optimize for the specifically available hardware makes up for it. There are very specific areas where it lags (large matrices and heavy numerics), but as a general-purpose programming language performance is no longer an issue.

And I don't know about moving from one VM to another, but on the Sun VM you can move across OSes without issue. In fact, with more recent Java releases any VM that meets their spec tends to be extremely good about running valid code. (There are certainly a few pitfalls that some programmers fall into, especially regarding threads, where their code makes assumptions about a particular VM's implementation that can lead to problems.)

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E pluribus unum
Re:Java's dead! by crucini · 2006-12-17 04:51 · Score: 2, Informative

Apparently Cornell doesn't realize C#/.Net is just Microsoft's implementation of a p-machine and framework, the same as Java

What makes you think Cornell doesn't realize that? Did you think the quoted statement called C# a dynamic language? It didn't.
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 05:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Apparently Cornell doesn't realize C#/.Net is just Microsoft's implementation of a p-machine and framework, the same as Java.

What makes you think that realising that stands in the way of it becoming more popular?
Re:Java's dead! by angel'o'sphere · 2006-12-17 05:55 · Score: 3, Informative

I've never been a fan of the language. Performance is terrible, Neither is the performance terribel nor ever was it. I think at its slowest time Java was roughly 10 times slower than C, and in general only 5 times slower ... not what I would call terribel. In our days Java is probably in the speed range of 1.2 of C. ... and moving an app from one VM to another often causes serious problems. Thas a myth. The cross platform claims have consistently been exaggerated. Well, if you had problems with that it must be ages ago. Don't use "\" as path seperator e.g. ... I for my part enver had one single issue. And real troble I only have heared about when people used RMI and where not aware that serialization is not allways the same from version to version.

We develop on linux and Mac Os X and our customers usually develop on linux and Windows, the software is usually deployed on Sun machines, either SPARC big iron or I86x blades. We never had any portability issue.

angel'o'sphere

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Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Java's dead! by angel'o'sphere · 2006-12-17 05:59 · Score: 1

Exactly ... and C# is not even dynamic (like Ruby and Python), rofl. Especialy if the term "dynamic typed" wold be far more appropriated then just saying "dynamic".

angel'o'sphere

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Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Java's dead! by Maxo-Texas · 2006-12-17 06:35 · Score: 1

I know demand for C# is out there- some of our C# programmers have left for other opportunities since our shop is java centric.

Java has never completely negated a prior version of the language yet (as the move from vb6 to .net did).

There is no promise from Microsoft that when they introduce C& that they will drop support for C# and instantly make it a dead language and leave all the C# programmers holding the bag.

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She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Re:Java's dead! by revscat · 2006-12-17 07:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

I've never been a fan of the language. Performance is terrible, and moving an app from one VM to another often causes serious problems. The cross platform claims have consistently been exaggerated.

I work for a large .com that serves up tens of millions of hits per day, and we are a Java shop.

You don't know what you're talking about.

re: cross-plaform compatibility. I do my development on OS X, but most of our developers use Windows. Our dev and staging environments are Linux, and our production boxes are Solaris, although we've recently introduced Linux into that mix as well.

There have been several times where I have taken a jar file built on my machine, and deployed it to other developer's machines or our staging environment with absolutely no problems. The same jar runs on every OS we deploy to.

Nor has performance ever been a problem. VM technology has seen amazing improvements over the past ten years, and is now such that for most non-trivial applications it is more performant than the compiled C/C++/Obj C equivalent. The success that Java has seen would not have been so tremendous if this were not true.
Re:Java's dead! by banerjek · 2006-12-17 09:17 · Score: 1

I work for a large .com that serves up tens of millions of hits per day, and we are a Java shop.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Virtually anything can be scaled if done properly. I see I've been labeled a troll, but Java has been more promise than substance from the very beginning. It's just another programming language.
Whenever someone emphasizes the technologies they use rather what their product does, I know to lower my expectations. I guarantee that some of the "enterprise" level software that our institution buys requires specific VM's to work. I'm not saying that all Java is this way, only that there definitely are apps that are that way. Besides, going through any kind of emulation layer such as a VM always has performance implications. Doesn't mean it should never be done, but all things being equal, it's something that does not make an app easier to maintain.
Re:Java's dead! by newt0311 · 2006-12-17 09:33 · Score: 1

to my knowledge, no. C is still the best for these. The closest is C++ and no kernel developer worth their weight in code would even think about writing and OS level components in C++. C will be the base OS coding language until CPU's take its place entirely (think a few decades in the future). The one exception to this is IBM mainframe assembler. It could replace C but would require too much redevelopement so it is out.
Re:Java's dead! by nuzak · 2006-12-17 10:17 · Score: 1

> moving an app from one VM to another often causes serious problems. The cross platform claims have consistently been exaggerated.

Yet unsurprisingly, you're unable to substantiate your own claims with even so much as an anecdote, let alone a verifiable one or anything that could demonstrate an actual pattern.

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Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
Re:Java's dead! by ciggieposeur · 2006-12-17 11:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

Back in the days when JDK levels 1.2.2 and 1.3.1 were the bleeding edge of commercial application servers, it was actually quite easy to find 100% Pure Java code that would barf on one JVM/platform combo but work quite well elsewhere. Off the top of my head, here are some examples:

1. Rendering double-byte character sets on AIX and Solaris crashed the JVM for various combinations of language (ja and ko were notoriously fragile), JVM, and OS level.

2. Code that spawned processes worked correctly in Windows, AIX 4.3.3, and Linux, but failed under AIX 5L and Solaris.

3. Solaris would throw an erroneous OutOfMemoryError when lots of EJBs were loaded, but it worked fine under AIX 4.3.3, AIX 5L, Linux, and Windows.

Our project was a relatively simple and classic J2EE webapp with a few EJBs for adminstration, some JDBC for large dataset handling, and JSPs for the frontend. It had an "InstallShield Multi-Platform"(tm) Java-based installer. We generally found JVM errors at the rate of once a month. Most could be worked around, but a few had to be documented to the user, and some (such as running the installer in a particular double-byte character set) could not be solved at all given the existing necessary workarounds for other JVM bugs.

Perhaps the JVMs have improved in reliability and work now as you say they do. I moved away from Java after that project and I doubt I'll ever switch back now.
Re:Java's dead! by aliquis · 2006-12-17 12:47 · Score: 1

Guess why he thought it was funny?
Re:Java's dead! by try_anything · 2006-12-17 13:02 · Score: 3, Interesting
Are there any other languages that could actually replace C?
C is unmatched in its ease of use from other languages and in the consistency of compiler support. That will ensure that it stays at the center of the programming universe. A library written in C can be used from virtually any other language in the world, on almost every system in the world, so a library developed in C will always have twenty times the users that an equivalent library in another language would. This is the real key to C's success, not anything else. Well, that and the fact that C is a simple language that is very easy to learn.

is there anything (practical) you can build an operating system out of, short of machine or assembly?
What do you need to write an operating system? First, access to the hardware. This seems like a deep and mysterious power, but whether a language can do this only depends on whether the language implementer decided it was a good idea -- you can hack a compiler for *any* language to emit the right sequence of instructions to access hardware controllers, handle interrupts, and control the processor. It doesn't take much linguistic support.
Actually, that isn't the way it's normally done anyway. That stuff is handled at the lowest levels by assembly code. The HLL part of the OS just has to interact with the assembly code efficiently. That means two things: the ability to define and manipulate binary data formats in memory, and the ability to call code written in assembly.
You'd also want the language to function without a large run-time system, to minimize the amount of assembly bootstrapping necessary to start up. You probably also want a language in which it is simple to write efficient code, unless you have more system resources than you know what to do with.
So that's all you need to write an OS:
- Convenient access to system resources.
- Convenient definition and manipulation of binary formats in memory.
- The ability to call assembly code.
- A small run-time system.
- The ability to write efficient code.
Practically speaking, I can't imagine doing it without an imperative language with a clear linguistic separation between stack allocation and heap allocation. That's probably just my mental limitations, but let's allow it anyway. You still have a very large number of languages left, though most of them have been choked off by the success of C. Off the top of my head, Ada and C++ are well-established languages that meet all the requirements I just stated.
An argument is often made that an OS must be implemented in a language that *lacks* certain features, because those features shouldn't be used in kernel code. I really don't understand that. What's even more mystifying is that the argument comes from C programmers. A C programmer will chew your ear off talking about how languages shouldn't protect programmers from their own mistakes, programmers need the full power of the computer, if a guy can't handle pointers then he shouldn't be programming in the first place, blah blah blah, but if you mention C++, his scrotum shrivels up and suddenly he's afraid that this big bad language will force him to write bad code.
The idea that someone might have the intelligence and discipline to design and implement part of an operating system, but will willy-nilly inject terrible features into that operating system merely because the language supports it, seems utterly bizarre to me. Surely everyone who has programmed in C or C++ has had to follow project coding guidelines. Of all the coding mistakes you can make, accidentally using a forbidden language feature seems like a pretty easy one to avoid.
Another frequently cited problem with using languages other than C is compiler support. I don't know if you meant to include such issues in your question or not, and I really don't have the knowledge to comment about compiler sup
Re:Java's dead! by Nevyn · 2006-12-17 14:02 · Score: 1

re: cross-plaform compatibility. I do my development on OS X, but most of our developers use Windows. Our dev and staging environments are Linux, and our production boxes are Solaris, although we've recently introduced Linux into that mix as well.

Apart from win32, I've seen the same thing with C multiple times. No one would say that C is cross-platform though. And I have seen cases where apps. seemed suspiciously tied to a particular VM (I'm looking at you Oracle). I've also seen problems when multiple versions of the JRE were involved. I'm Hopeful that with Java going Open next year, these problems will go away for everyone ... even if it's just because all relevant OSes will come with a very new Java in a well defined place, so people will be less happy to accept apps. comming with a "install X here, and our Java VM there".

Nor has performance ever been a problem. VM technology has seen amazing improvements over the past ten years, and is now such that for most non-trivial applications it is more performant than the compiled C/C++/Obj C equivalent. The success that Java has seen would not have been so tremendous if this were not true.

This is just not true, you can certainly write bad C and good Java where the Java will win even though it's running on the JVM ... but gcj still consistently wins against JVM running applications, AFAIK.

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ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 14:28 · Score: 0

Fanboy.
Re:Java's dead! by Listen+Up · 2006-12-17 15:09 · Score: 1

JDK 1.2.x and 1.3.x are another universe from 1.5.x and the upcoming 1.6.x. I recently completed a full multi-byte J2EE SOA server-side application developed on Windows and deployed directly to BEA WebLogic 9.2 on Solaris 10 (Sparc) with no problems whatsoever. The back-end database is Oracle 10g running on Solaris 10 (Sparc). In conjunction with the J2EE SOA application, we also built a multi-byte J2SE client in Eclipse on OS X and utilized a variety of technologies including Axis, Hibernate, Tomcat, JSP, and AJAX. The entire client application is running in an SWT container built using Spring, the JSP's are powered by embedded Tomcat, and the embedded browser used is what is default on the system deployed (ie. IE on Windows, Safari on OS X, Mozilla/Konquerer on Linux, etc.) The application was built to support 35,000+ users in two countries communicating over satellite, mobile phone network, WiFi, and LAN. We had no Java-specific deployment problems during testing and have yet to have a single trouble ticket after a month of production deployment.

You need to take another look at Java for both server-side and client-side use. J2SE 6 is being specifically designed for desktop application development and J2EE 6 is going to be light years ahead of .NET while implementing almost all of the improvements from the Java community directly into the EE framework and tools.

There is a lot of bullshit constantly floating around Slashdot on a continual basis from people who have never programmed in Java beyond Hello World. Java has had the benefit of years of development, improvement, and exceptional open-source software libraries. Also, try both Eclipse and NetBeans. NetBeans has truly come into its own, an excellent modern IDE. Eclipse has large support from IBM, BEA and others. These are two great choices for Java development and they are both free to use.

Another note, I have recently begun development testing the fully Sun supported, newly renewed and community supported Java gaming libraries Java2D/Java3D. The Java3D libraries use OpenGL or DirectX, depending on platform. With OpenAL and JInput, pretty much all of the bases for gaming are covered. Interesting, testing on the latest 1.5 JVM under Windows, Linux, and OS X has shown that game code written in Java performs on average only 1.1 times slower than code written in C or C++. Contrary to popular belief on Slashdot, almost no code is ever really written in Assembly for gaming purposes. And the code that is written in Assembly needs to be called from C/C++ the same as it is called from Java using JNI. Further testing has shown that the overhead is equal between Java and C/C++ for Assembly calls. Another interesting note, the JVM starts to execute the code faster and faster the longer it is run due to the new JVM's HotSpot compilers continuously updating and optimizing the code execution. I am extremely excited to start delving into serious Java game development in the future.
Re:Java's dead! by revengance · 2006-12-17 15:25 · Score: 1

Well, it seems that you do not understand Java as well as you should.

Secondly, I was not so convinced that going under the VM has serious performance implications. It is not as if applications are developed with performance in mind anymore. Otherwise, all the software that I am using would be flying rather than crawling like 20 years ago.
Re:Java's dead! by try_anything · 2006-12-17 16:06 · Score: 1

That jives with my Java experience. Our development machines were mostly Windows boxes with a few Linux guys mixed in, and we deployed to Solaris servers. The only guys who ever ran the code under Solaris were the load testers. Even QA was done on Windows boxes. Think about that for a second: we did release testing on an entirely different architecture than deployment, and it never bit us a single time. Freaking amazing. That was around 2000-2001.
Re:Java's dead! by msobkow · 2006-12-17 17:00 · Score: 1

You're right. I missed the parenthesis. Two bytes changes the whole meaning of the sentance. :)

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I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Re:Java's dead! by NineSisters · 2006-12-17 19:52 · Score: 1

"No one uses Java anymore, it's all flash these days."

I'd like to see you writing an application server in flash. :>
Re:Java's dead! by linuxrocks123 · 2006-12-17 21:37 · Score: 1

> It is not as if applications are developed with performance in mind anymore. Otherwise, all the software that I am using would be flying rather than crawling like 20 years ago.

You can write slow programs in any language. That's not the point.

If you spend a long time analyzing performance, and you care about it, you can write fast programs in C, C++, Fortran, and others.

If you wrote the equivalent program in Java and ran it in a JVM it would virtually always be slower. There are arguments that it wouldn't, hence the grandparents' claim, and they involve things like Just-In-Time compilation. However, these arguments are wrong, because real program performance bears out that C is still faster.

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vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
Re:Java's dead! by linuxrocks123 · 2006-12-17 21:46 · Score: 1

> Nor has performance ever been a problem. VM technology has seen amazing improvements over the past ten years, and is now such that for most non-trivial applications it is more performant than the compiled C/C++/Obj C equivalent. The success that Java has seen would not have been so tremendous if this were not true.

You're wrong. Java's success is due to the fact that programming in it requires less intelligence than programming in C or C++ because Java doesn't allow stupid people to make the stupid mistakes that they made in those languages. The penalties for this route are power and performance. Python's also seen tremendous success in recent years. Do you think it performs better than C or C++?

JIT compilation is not enough and has overhead of its own. EVERY real world test still shows C and C++ coming out on top by factors of 3 to 10. It's okay if you like Java (but ... it's also gross); however, it's not okay to make obviously wrong statements like that one to promote it.

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vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
Re:Java's dead! by master_p · 2006-12-17 23:05 · Score: 1

What you mention are platform-specific bugs, not platform-specific behavior. If these bugs did not exist, then code would run normally as in the other platforms.
Re:Java's dead! by spuzzzzzzz · 2006-12-18 01:36 · Score: 1

An argument is often made that an OS must be implemented in a language that *lacks* certain features, because those features shouldn't be used in kernel code.

I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but complicated features sometimes require a complicated run-time environment; this can be a reason for favouring a simple language for OS development. In Ada, for example, the run-time environment is pretty much an operating system by itself. There's not much point developing an OS in Ada if the standard run-time system already has many of the features you need to implement. The same goes for any language that supports concurrency to a decent degree.

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Don't you hate meta-sigs?
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 03:27 · Score: 0

We generally found JVM errors at the rate of once a month.
One need only read this line of bullshit to know that you are a raving idiot.
Re:Java's dead! by try_anything · 2006-12-18 05:12 · Score: 1

There's not much point developing an OS in Ada if the standard run-time system already has many of the features you need to implement. The same goes for any language that supports concurrency to a decent degree.

Well, sure there's a point -- you get an operating system! If the basic functions of the operating system overlap with the language runtime, then you can use one implementation for both. For example, C implementations on Unix get to rely on the system linker and loader, but Java and Lisp implemantations have to provide their own linker/loaders. The kernel implementation language will be fast and well-supported on the system and become the systems programming language of choice on the operating system. That has happened with Lisp on Lisp Machines and C on Unix; probably my ignorance prevents my from listing half a dozen more instances.
If a language specifies concurrency support, then the OS can choose between implementing the language's model of concurrency or merely supporting it by providing appropriate primitives. Writing a kernel involves creating virtual dialects of a language because of the various contexts in which code executes, and that would certainly include dialects in which the concurrency features of a language were unavailable.
Re:Java's dead! by banerjek · 2006-12-18 05:28 · Score: 0

Well, it seems that you do not understand Java as well as you should
Secondly, I was not so convinced that going under the VM has serious performance implications. It is not as if applications are developed with performance in mind anymore. Otherwise, all the software that I am using would be flying rather than crawling like 20 years ago.
Performance only doesn't matter if the machine is working well below its capabilities. Make it actually do something and all the small things that people say don't matter really add up.
I find it amusing how many people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about based on a few comments I have made. This is precisely why IT people have such a lousy reputation with the general public -- if you don't understand what someone is trying to say, try to convince them they're an idiot rather than present logical arguments that can be judged on their own merits. Few people who think they are smarter than others actually are. Experience makes people aware of how little they know. That's why older people are so generally so much dumber than younger people.
BTW, software did not crawl 20 years ago. Machines were much slower, yes, but they weren't nearly as busy doing useless things with very inefficient code. Surprising things can be done with a couple K (not MB) of memory if you know what you're doing. I will bow out after now, because I see this topic is too touchy and I can see that most people regard my comments as inflammatory.
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 05:46 · Score: 0

hat3r
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 07:58 · Score: 0

All software has bugs, what did you expect? Whatever you moved to has bugs as well. OutofMemory is an user error. You don't know how to configure your environment correctly. If you can't do real programming, maybe it's best you stay away from professional's tools and stick with what you can do.
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 08:57 · Score: 0

COBOL is unmatched in its ease of use from other languages and in the consistency of compiler support. That will ensure that it stays at the center of the programming universe. A library written in COBOL can be used from virtually any other language in the world, on almost every system in the world, so a library developed in COBOL will always have twenty times the users that an equivalent library in another language would. This is the real key to COBOL's success, not anything else. Well, that and the fact that COBOL is a simple language that is very easy to learn. HTH HAND
Re:Java's dead! by ciggieposeur · 2006-12-18 09:37 · Score: 1

OutofMemory is an user error.

No it's not. Here is the actual bug report: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4390238 . Note that WE did not report the bug, we discovered the writeup only after having encountered it independently.

If you can't do real programming, maybe it's best you stay away from professional's tools and stick with what you can do.

Ah of course, I must not be a "real programmer" because the 25-person team I was working with in the IBM WebSphere Applications group (*cough*) managed to discover some bugs in the JVMs. And all those people reporting JVM bugs at bugs.sun.com must be idiots too.
Re:Java's dead! by ciggieposeur · 2006-12-18 10:02 · Score: 1

Wow, did I run over your dog or something?

I'm reporting what actually happened. Go build yourself a time machine, travel to IBM Building 500 in RTP circa spring 2001, and talk to the people in the WebSphere Applications group in room 240. My teammates at that time will be able to outline the various bugs encountered in the JVMs. Here is the OutOfMemoryError we saw: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4390238 . We didn't report the bug, we just found it after having encountered it independently.

Also, check the Top 25 Bugs at bugs.sun.com. Of those, here are the platform-specific bugs that are currently OPEN:

http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4957990 (Solaris)
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4171239 (Windows)
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4787931 (Windows)
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4673298 (Linux)
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id =4049083 (Windows/Solaris)

For anyone writing non-trivial applications, it is NOT HARD to encounter a situation where the JVM either behaves differently on platforms or has an outright bug. bugs.sun.com is filled with them.
Re:Java's dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 10:17 · Score: 0

A library written in COBOL can be used from virtually any other language in the world, on almost every system in the world

This was never true. Try again.

Boston Globe by KruiserX · 2006-12-17 01:26 · Score: 5, Funny

When the the Boston Globe was asked about the decline of JAVA to dynamic languages their reply was to "stop using JAVA"

Re:Boston Globe by romland · 2006-12-17 01:34 · Score: 0, Funny

Wow! Awesome! Thanks for that helpful nugget of advice there, chief! That kind of knee-jerk bullshit response is about as annoying as the zealots on certain tech boards who answer every question about a Windows problem with "INSTALL LINUX, PROBLEM SOLVED." Basically it means "I have nothing helpful to contribute, but I just thought I'd act like a douchebag anyway."
Re:Boston Globe by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 01:43 · Score: 0

Hmmm. Looks like a joke flew WAY over someone's head...
Re:Boston Globe by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 01:48 · Score: 0

Yeah, certainly looks like it... :)

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=212218&cid=172 74470read it?
Re:Boston Globe by KruiserX · 2006-12-17 01:50 · Score: 1

I'll just "stop commenting on /." then.
Re:Boston Globe by tehcyder · 2006-12-18 23:15 · Score: 1

Wow! Awesome! Thanks for that helpful nugget of advice there, chief! That kind of knee-jerk bullshit response is about as annoying as the zealots on certain tech boards who answer every question about a Windows problem with "INSTALL LINUX, PROBLEM SOLVED." Basically it means "I have nothing helpful to contribute, but I just thought I'd act like a douchebag anyway."
Do you have any idea what the word "joke" means?

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it

David Heinemeier is a troll by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 01:34 · Score: 5, Funny

David Heinemeier Hansson: 'The stigma of being a Web programmer still using Windows will increase.'

I guess we can say the same about those snobby pre-teen emo kids using the Mac.

Re:David Heinemeier is a troll by ShieldW0lf · 2006-12-17 01:36 · Score: 1

If I had mod points, you would have them all

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-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Re:David Heinemeier is a troll by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:19 · Score: 0

Except he's right! Windows is good for office applications and games, professionals* shouldn't be using it for anything.

* Including people running office applications and even pro-gamers.
Re:David Heinemeier is a troll by blowdart · 2006-12-17 03:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

Except he's right! Windows is good for office applications and games, professionals* shouldn't be using it for anything.
Oh please, use what's right for your environment. And frankly in the web space what's on the back end shouldn't matter one bit, it all pumps out HTML/XHTML/RSS/whatever. Unless of course he's saying that Ruby just sucks on Windows; in which case whose fault is that really?
Re:David Heinemeier is a troll by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 00:57 · Score: 0

I for one hail our Extremely Handsome Intergalactic Cult Rails Overlord.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2595/3511/1600/ ruby_on_raels.1.jpg

Ever used Eclipse? by mustafap · 2006-12-17 01:38 · Score: 1, Redundant

Java dead? Tell developers who use Eclipse that.

--
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com

Re:Ever used Eclipse? by drerwk · 2006-12-17 02:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

Didn't have you coffee yet this morning?
The parent makes a living programming J2EE. He might even use Eclipse.
I think for many folks Java is used to write software that does not see the front of a web page.
In fact I have not used Java on the client side since about '98. But I write far more Java now than I did back then. I hope that the work Ethan Nicholas is doing to will help, but frankly Flash works fine for many web pages. And as long as I don't have to write the Flash code I'm fine with that. Is it still programming via dialog box? Can I use svn with my Flash code these days? I also hear AJAX is popular and effective for client side work. Anyway, Java is not likely to die anytime soon.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by iamdrscience · 2006-12-17 02:19 · Score: 1

And as long as I don't have to write the Flash code I'm fine with that. Is it still programming via dialog box? Can I use svn with my Flash code these days?
Actually programming in Flash (the program) is no longer a pain worse than death but still no fun, however, programming flash applications with Flex is beautiful, especially with all the features added in Flex 2. Honestly, I love Flex to death and I think you'll see a lot more people using it in coming years.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Directrix1 · 2006-12-17 02:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

I am personally really excited about Java becoming free. I quit using it a few years ago because of Stallman's The Java Trap (that and the dark side of easy unmaintainable web development in PHP drew me in... stupid me). I'm currently reevaluating Java right now and Python is really shaping up for the server side too. But back to the point, people forget that there is a MASSIVE collection of libraries out there for Java. And I mean massive. Check apache.org just for a little taste.

--
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by The+PS3+Will+Fail · 2006-12-17 04:07 · Score: 5, Informative

'Now you can find your open source code trapped by an open source license.'
Java will still be available under the Sun license; releasing it under the GPL is just another option - but not the only way to license it. You're spreading nonsense.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by mongus · 2006-12-17 05:06 · Score: 1

While you're checking out Java on the server make sure to take a look at Stripes. It is a great web framework that makes life soooo much easier.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by larry+bagina · 2006-12-17 06:21 · Score: 1

Can I use svn with my Flash code these days?
Does svn support binary files? When I use Flash, I keep the actionscript in external text files (which are easiliy managed by svn et alia) and just #include them.

--
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Maxo-Texas · 2006-12-17 06:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Java is great for writing business rules and the back end and for industrial enterprise level scalable code.

Other things are better for the front end these days. No big deal.

Front ends change a lot. Business rules tend to be stable. Do you really want to redevelop all your business rule every 3 to 5 years? With java, you write it once and for the foreseeable future don't have to rewrite it. But java is a bit heavy for fast moving stuff.

--
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Billly+Gates · 2006-12-17 08:17 · Score: 1

That is a shame since I am a fan of swing.

The latest versions of java combined with newer hardware run swing apps quite nicely and responsively. I can write apps with netbeans using swing very quickly and its sweet.

--
http://saveie6.com/
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by drerwk · 2006-12-17 08:35 · Score: 1

Yes, svn supports binary blobs. Good also to hear that you manage the action script in svn. I don't recall that I could do that without cut and paste 8 years back (not svn back then either). But, as you try and build larger and larger projects, or share a project, or write tools that can parse, test, and generate code for the language you are using you will likely find that opaque blobs of binary are not helpful. This is not to say that Flash is not the right tool for your job, just to say that scaling to large projects, long lasting projects, or projects with many developers not in the same room requires easy visibility into the source code. I've had the pleasure of using some very nice visual programming environments (Prograph anyone, how about mTropolis?) which made me much more efficient than I was with the current text based environments. But, without a diff and merge facilities, I could not tell from day to day what had changed, or who had changed it. I've experienced the frustration of having a blob from last week that worked, and having a blob with a few bug fixes and a one new bug but no way to go line by line and figure out what had caused the new bug. My current preference is to be correct and know I can retrace my steps and the steps my developers take even if it seems comparatively slow; in short I'll keep the cow, and pass on the magic beans.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by drerwk · 2006-12-17 08:46 · Score: 1

That is a shame since I am a fan of swing. The latest versions of java combined with newer hardware run swing apps quite nicely and responsively. I can write apps with netbeans using swing very quickly and its sweet.
Not sure you are commenting on my post or on the parent. I've writen GUI Java apps and I've used Swing, I just would not choose to use it on a public website these days. As a deployment in the corporation, or among well behaved/controlled clients sure, but not in public. In public you really want things to work 99%+ and in seconds, and I have not seen web client Java do that.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 09:21 · Score: 0

Read RMS' Java Trap essay. He made some extreme claims about licensing and using java libraries/packages.
I consider using java.* packages to be no different than linking to libc. However, (according to RMS), due to the nature of the JAVA VM engine, it's as if you copy/pasted all the libc code into your application. Result: you cannot write GPL java software that uses the Sun classpath (since it is not GPL licensed).
If the Sun classpath is placed under a GPL license, then all software which uses it must be placed under the GPL as well.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by The+PS3+Will+Fail · 2006-12-17 11:20 · Score: 1

I don't believe that anything Stallman says on the legal implications of one license vs. another should be taken as gospel. As far as I know, he is not a lawyer.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by mackyrae · 2006-12-17 13:07 · Score: 1

I hate Eclipse. It's like turning Java into VB with all the click the dialog boxes blah blah blah. And just setting up to start writing your program is a pain. I still can't figure out how to make it debug. I really like BlueJ, but I don't think there's one for Linux. Vi and GCJ works just fine for me.

--
look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by grammar+fascist · 2006-12-17 19:30 · Score: 2, Informative

And just setting up to start writing your program is a pain. I still can't figure out how to make it debug.

And with one fell swoop, you've thoroughly discredited your opinion. FYI, "Debug..." is under the "Run" menu. Double-click the gutters on the left side of the code to set breakpoints. Eclipse even handles debugging multi-threaded apps quite sanely.

I love Eclipse for Java development. There's nothing more satisfying than right-clicking an annoying identifier and renaming it globally within your project. (If keyboards make you giddy, use SHIFT-ALT-R.) Make vi do that. And no, global search-and-replace doesn't count - it ignores context and your code may not compile afterward.

--
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by fangyidong · 2006-12-17 20:02 · Score: 1

GWT make us program AJAX in Java.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 22:57 · Score: 0

It's ironic, though: the Java Trap is now reversed.
What the fuck is ironic about that? Stupid fucking American, you haven't a clue what "irony" means ;)
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by CheeseyDJ · 2006-12-18 00:05 · Score: 1

Read RMS' Java Trap essay. He made some extreme claims about licensing and using java libraries/packages.

I consider using java.* packages to be no different than linking to libc. However, (according to RMS), due to the nature of the JAVA VM engine, it's as if you copy/pasted all the libc code into your application. Result: you cannot write GPL java software that uses the Sun classpath (since it is not GPL licensed).

If the Sun classpath is placed under a GPL license, then all software which uses it must be placed under the GPL as well.

That's simply not true. You're describing what happens when you use #include in C/C++. In Java the rough equivalent is the import keyword, which doesn't work in the same way at all.

import just defines a fully qualified package name so you can refer to classes in that package using their simple names. That's all it does.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by mishagam · 2006-12-18 00:09 · Score: 1

I hate Eclipse. ... I still can't figure out how to make it debug.
This is really funny. But I think it is very difficult to refrain from opinions like that.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Spudds · 2006-12-18 04:57 · Score: 1

Make vi do that.

Lol. When will people learn to keep their mouths shut when they don't know what they're talking about?

:s/OLD/NEW/g

Global replace, along with about 1000 other things is quite simple with vi. Admittedly, learning all the arcane syntax and memorizing commands isn't as simple as file->search however.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by chris_mahan · 2006-12-18 05:57 · Score: 1

In today's business world, your business rules are lucky to stay put 2 years.

--
"Piter, too, is dead."
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by PastaLover · 2006-12-18 06:07 · Score: 1

Which illustrates exactly what is wrong with the FSF's definition of 'derivative work'. You might use memcmp or isupper or whatever out of libc to write a program. That certainly doesn't mean your program/library is just a derivative work of libc. It utilises libc to accomplish a certain purpose. As long as it doesn't claim to be an alternative to libc (with sugar added) it's not a derivative work IMHO.

There's a whole lot of people bending over backwards to try and follow the FSF's position because that's probably the smartest thing to do right now, but it just doesn't seem logical to me. ABy the above reasoning, if you use a library by dynamic linking (i.e. #include a header and let ld worry about libraries) it's supposedly okay, but if you link statically (including the entire binary library) it's not. The difference is merely technical and shouldn't have a bearing on licensing but according to RMS it does.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by cnettel · 2006-12-18 12:55 · Score: 1

Will that be syntax sensitive? The point of the parent is that you can change the name of one method in one class, and make it apply to the complete project, while use of ANOTHER method, which just happens to use the same name, won't be affected. (Really, the name collision might be the original reason for implementing the change.)
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by jerkface.us · 2006-12-19 18:31 · Score: 1

"I really like BlueJ, but I don't think there's one for Linux."

http://www.bluej.org/download/files/bluej-213.jar

--
Fortune favors the bold.
Re:Ever used Eclipse? by Maxo-Texas · 2006-12-20 10:31 · Score: 1

At my corporation there are business rules that have not changed in 25 years.

Part of the reason so many cobol programmers were needed in 2000 was that many insurance companies code / rules had not changed since the 1970's and 1980's.

So it depends on the business.

--
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.

It is official; Netcraft now confirms: by zBoD · 2006-12-17 01:47 · Score: 0

JAVA is dying.

--
BoD

--
BoD

Re:It is official; Netcraft now confirms: by Marcus+Green · 2006-12-17 02:40 · Score: 4, Informative

Quick search on the nearest Job board
Occurances of the word Java
3043
Occurances of the word Ruby
30
Reports of death seriously exaggerated
Re:It is official; Netcraft now confirms: by zBoD · 2006-12-17 05:29 · Score: 0

This was a joke.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=BSD%20is% 20dying

--
BoD

Open-sourcing of Java will increase its use by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 01:47 · Score: 1, Interesting

We can't wait until Java is included in Debian. It'll simplify our maintenance quote a bit, for we have a ton of Java apps, our whole business runs on Java.

As for Ruby... well, Ruby's fine but now we have even less resons to consider it. See, for example, "Ruby's rotting" article.

Re:Open-sourcing of Java will increase its use by aliquis · 2006-12-17 13:00 · Score: 1

Is it so hard to install it separately then? Or is it the fact that you have to update it manually? Can't you just make you own packages and put up your own server for it? Ever considered running Solaris instead of debian?
Re:Open-sourcing of Java will increase its use by alienmole · 2006-12-19 06:00 · Score: 1

Sure, you can make your own packages. But Debian's package system is like crack - you get dependent on just doing "apt-get install" and not having to worry about a thing. Solaris can't compete, because it doesn't have Debian's repository.
Re:Open-sourcing of Java will increase its use by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-24 04:55 · Score: 0

But... Sun's Java actually is in the non-free repository of Debian. It has been for a few months, since they changed some licencing bits.

Umm...what stigma? by Aphrika · 2006-12-17 01:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

'The stigma of being a Web programmer still using Windows will increase.'

Am I missing something here, I was unaware that there was a stigma attached to being a web programmer using Windows. Right tools for the job, whether it's Ruby on Rails or not I'm afraid. Last project was PHP on Apache and MySQL, current project is ASP.NET and SQL Server 2005. My next project will be PHP on Windows using MySQL and IIS. I do what's best for my clients, not what's flavour of the month.

Attaching a stigma to certain platforms or technologies for certain jobs is just stupid and childish. Are we going to start lambasting publishers that don't use Macs next, or Linux users that do accounting on their machines? Bizarre...

Re:Umm...what stigma? by GIL_Dude · 2006-12-17 01:54 · Score: 0

Well said. I am out of mod points, so I can't mod you up - but definitely well said.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by JohnFluxx · 2006-12-17 04:27 · Score: 1, Interesting

Hi,
A serious question - when is using SQL server the right tool for any job? Or was it because that's what the client wanted/knew?
Re:Umm...what stigma? by Aphrika · 2006-12-17 04:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Interesting. Well firstly I'd like to say that I don't consider myself a fanboy of any particular database/OS/web server/development product, I work to solve problems, not increase/decrease some software/hardware company's market share.

In most cases, SQL Server is right becasue a company has in-house SQL Server Admins and deploying another database platform is a waste on company resources. That would entail another complete platform and maintenance/admin skillset. In many cases companies don't want this, which makes perfect sense as there's no point having a disparate bunch of technologies that you need to manage. If I was ever deploying a .NET solution, SQL Server 2000/2005 is also what I'd recommend as it talks to .NET code much more effectively than MySQL or other alternatives. Performance of SQL Server against MySQL with .NET code is way better to the extent that I wouldn't recommend MySQL in that situation, regardless of deployment cost. As you work with various platforms, technologies and languages, you tend to fit the ones which fit together best - that's something that comes with experience. You also have to look at an outfit before you start on a new database project. If a company is using a lot of Windows boxes, has sysadmins who are Windows-based, then chances are that they'll be much more at home doing admin of a SQL Server on a Windows platform. In an ideal world, I'd all roll out what I personally love best. In a business world (the real world) I roll out what's best long term for the client, and that's looking at return on investments, total costs of ownership and what they already have in place. There's no point in rolling a shiny new Windows 2003 server into an Oracle datacenter and asking them to admin it. These are all factors that'll affect what I'm recommending/using/deploying.

Personally speaking, I've never had any issus with any SQL Server versions in either performance, scaling or security. A well installed, maintained and managed setup will work really well and be considerably cheaper than alternatives such as Oracle. While MySQL may be cheaper, it's not as fully featured as SQL Server. Off the top of my head, I reckon I've dealt with around 40 or 50 SQL Server setups since version 6.5 and I don't have a bad word to say about them - never had an intrusion, never had database corruption, havce ported databases between machines with no problems, run them on VMware etc. etc. It's certainly one of Microsoft's better technology platforms and though many people would like me to, I can't really fault it. Same goes for MySQL - I like it and I use it where necessary and relevant, i.e. conversely, I'd tend to roll out MySQL in a Linux-house if I were developing PHP on Apache for instance. As I said earlier, you find technologies fit together through experience.

Although as with anything out there, chances are someone's had some really bad experiences with it and couldn't recommend it though personal experiences, YMMV.

Hope that answers your question though.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by JohnFluxx · 2006-12-17 05:37 · Score: 1

Thanks!

I get most of your points (and reluctantly agree), but not sure whether the performance part is legitimate - it seems unlikely that the marshaling interface is going to have any significant impact.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by canuck57 · 2006-12-17 06:17 · Score: 1

Am I missing something here, I was unaware that there was a stigma attached to being a web programmer using Windows.
I think the stigma comes from - "I clicked on Front Page, created a web page - now I am a senior web developer. What is Apache, an Indian?"
I am sorry, I deal with web developers where I work, xNIX and Microsoft. I just finished an argument with a Microsoft web developer of why DNS could not change the port numbers in a URL. I get this all the time. Some of these developers are dumb as nails.
I don't get the same lack of intelligence from the xNIX/Apache group.
It isn't to say there are not Microsoft web developers out there that are not sharp as a tack, but by average --- there is a clear difference.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by smellotron · 2006-12-17 06:35 · Score: 1

"In most cases, SQL Server is right becasue a company has in-house SQL Server Admins and deploying another database platform is a waste on company resources. That would entail another complete platform and maintenance/admin skillset."

Agreed.

"Personally speaking, I've never had any issus with any SQL Server versions in either performance, scaling or security. A well installed, maintained and managed setup will work really well and be considerably cheaper than alternatives such as Oracle. While MySQL may be cheaper, it's not as fully featured as SQL Server."

What about a well installed, maintained, and managed PostgreSQL setup? While I sympathize with your concerns for the client business's needs, you seem to be cheating yourself by missing one of the better alternatives (and yes, it does run on windows).
Re:Umm...what stigma? by Kymermosst · 2006-12-17 07:35 · Score: 1

I am sorry, I deal with web developers where I work, xNIX and Microsoft. I just finished an argument with a Microsoft web developer of why DNS could not change the port numbers in a URL. I get this all the time. Some of these developers are dumb as nails.

You so need one of these. I've been able to pull miracles using Big-IPs (mainly fixing the mistakes of our Windows-loving web developers and product teams). If you've got it fronting all of your services, you can even change the port numbers in your URLs...

--
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by SQLz · 2006-12-17 08:13 · Score: 1

I can't even think of a instance where Windows would be "the right tool for the right job".
Re:Umm...what stigma? by Billly+Gates · 2006-12-17 08:13 · Score: 1

I suppose the Unix administrators are the ones who cringe on supporting a Microsoft based website. Apache has a ton of mods and scripting is lightyears ahead of Windows. Clustering, uptime, security, and patchability still reign king on Solaris and Linux as a second. The powershell using .NET framework is nice and I want to learn it but it still has awhile ago to catch up to unix using pipes and the gnu cli tools.

Development is one aspect and maintance is another. Its true MS has nice development tools and I hate to say it but IE on Windows is required to see what the site looks like since its what everyone uses. MS has an unfair advantage in that all the development tools for MSDN are paid for already so why use anything non microsoft?

--
http://saveie6.com/
Re:Umm...what stigma? by killjoe · 2006-12-17 10:01 · Score: 1

"Attaching a stigma to certain platforms or technologies for certain jobs is just stupid and childish."

And yet it still happens. The windows geek attack a stigma to linux users are being unwashed communist hippies and the linux users attach a stigma to windows geeks are brainless button pushers and screen painters.

That's reality and I certainly don't see it going away any time soon.

Like it or not there is a certain amount of l33tness in having a job where you can use a mac and cool platforms like ROR. It goes double or triple if you are using emacs and lisp/smalltalk/haskell/erlang.

That's just the way things are.

--
evil is as evil does
Re:Umm...what stigma? by killjoe · 2006-12-17 10:04 · Score: 1

SQL server has crappy error messages. It's really hard to debug when something goes wrong. If I get another "multiple step process has caused an error" message I am going to scream.

Aside from that SQL server promotes vendor lock (so does .NET). MS wants you to use the full MS stack. .NET, windows, SQL server, and VB or C#. If you veer outside of their stack with any of their elements you suffer serious pain.

If you don't mind getting your chain yanked by your vendor once in a while by all means use it.

--
evil is as evil does
Re:Umm...what stigma? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 11:37 · Score: 0

It's true - just a rinse and repeat of the Commodore 64/ZX Spectrum, Commodore Amiga/Atari ST, Commodore Amiga/PC/Mac, Nintendo/Sega, Playstation/Dreamcast, Gameboy/Atari Lynx battles.

I think my nightmare would be waking up in a Betamax/Laserdisc/Atari ST/Atari Lynx/Dreamcast world, whilst having to do all my work in notepad on Windows 3.11... yikes! Hmmm... possibly Blur-ay too, but we'll see...
Re:Umm...what stigma? by SageMusings · 2006-12-17 14:34 · Score: 1

Learn the product.

You can make your own custom errors and throw them whenever necessary with try/catch constructs. You must be discussing an earlier version. All these products evolve. And how the hell does SQL Server force you into vendor lock? Your reasoning is so vague and non-specific, it's baffling.

Pray tell what DB am I supposed to be developing on? I'll take your choice and knock a dozen holes in your logic. I suppose you also know exactly what non-MS language I should be using, too.

The right tools are the ones that work well for you. It sounds like you have not gotten SQL server to work for you and that's a shame because lots of other organizations figured it out and spend a lot less $ for it than, say, an Oracle shop.

--
-- Posted from my parent's basement
Re:Umm...what stigma? by SageMusings · 2006-12-17 14:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

My experience has revealed a lot of Linux web developers are "learn PHP in 21 days" types. We weed you guys out at interviews all the time.

it isn't to say there are not Linux web developers out there that are not sharp as a tack, but by average --- there is a clear difference.

--
-- Posted from my parent's basement
Re:Umm...what stigma? by killjoe · 2006-12-17 20:34 · Score: 1

"Pray tell what DB am I supposed to be developing on?"

There are dozens. Lots of them are open source. What makes you think mssql is the only database on the market?

"I suppose you also know exactly what non-MS language I should be using, too."

There are dozens. Most of them are open source.

"The right tools are the ones that work well for you. It sounds like you have not gotten SQL server to work for you and that's a shame because lots of other organizations figured it out and spend a lot less $ for it than, say, an Oracle shop."

Feature for reature oracle costs the same as SQL server. The very top end product of oracle costs more then the very top end version of sql server but it does lots more.

Whats more oracle works on lots of operating systems including free ones like linux and solaris. SQL server only runs on windows and some version require SQL server enterprise edition which is not cheap so you have to add the cost of windows to the cost of SQL server before you make a comparison.

I have worked with SQL server for the past eight years in two different jobs. It's how I make my living. I hate it with a passion. I can't believe that businesses actually rely on it to make money. In my experience the only people who like it are the people who never used anything else and people who are afraid of unix or the command line.

--
evil is as evil does
Re:Umm...what stigma? by rjshields · 2006-12-18 02:46 · Score: 1

it seems unlikely that the marshaling interface is going to have any significant impact
The what now?

The GP is right, using SQL server with .NET is an assload faster than using it with MySql. The drivers are also a fucktonne faster than the OLEDB/ODBC ones they replaced.

--
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by rjshields · 2006-12-18 02:56 · Score: 1

My experience has revealed a lot of Linux web developers are "learn PHP in 21 days" types.
As against windows developers who are all "learn VB.Net by clicking and dragging controls to auto-generate code" types ;)

--
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.
Re:Umm...what stigma? by D-Cypell · 2006-12-18 04:02 · Score: 1

Dear Sir,

I am confused by your units of measurement.

Please explain to me how many assloads can be found in a fucktonne.

Thanks

Re:I predict by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 01:53 · Score: 0

If Java has that kinds of HW requirements then what HW does TiVo have inside? People are talking about buying a PS3 just to get a Cell processor. Forget PS3 I'm getting a TiVo.

That quote was out of context by brokeninside · 2006-12-17 01:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Hansson's prediction was that Apple will become the development platform of choice for techies and, consequently, other developers will laugh at any web devs saddled with using a Windows based laptop.

The Best Predictions From The Article.... by E++99 · 2006-12-17 01:58 · Score: 5, Funny

...by Richard Monson-Haefel
Award-Winning Author & Senior Analyst, Burton Group

1. Jonathan Schwartz open-sources Sun Microsystems.
In a move that will surprise everyone Sun Microsystems will announce that it will open source its entire company. Sales, marketing, finance, and even operations will be open to the community for anyone to contribute.

2. Apple computer announces the iPod Uno.
The size of a match stick with no screen or controls, the iPod Uno plays one song in a constant loop. Despite its limited capabilities, the tiny device becomes an instant hit and a cultural icon.

3. In what is heralded as the seminal article on the subject, Tim Berners-Lee mentions "IT2"
Overnight the term morphs into "IT 2.0," spawning thousands of blog entries and press articles, a dozen books, five conferences, and millions of dollars in venture capital. It turns out that the original article, incomprehensible to most readers, was actually another attempt to explain the Semantic Web and the IT2 reference was just a typo.

4. Microsoft will create the first CMO (Chief Marketing Officer) position.
The new CMO will immediately change his own title to Chief Command & Control of Packaging Officer (C3PO) and then announce that Vista will be delayed and renamed Microsoft Virtualization Application Program Operating system Reloaded (Microsoft VAPOR).

...funniest stuff I've read in a very long time.

Re:The Best Predictions From The Article.... by kfg · 2006-12-17 02:38 · Score: 1

2. Apple computer announces the iPod Uno.
The size of a match stick with no screen or controls, the iPod Uno plays one song in a constant loop. Despite its limited capabilities, the tiny device becomes an instant hit and a cultural icon.

Well, considering that's what my desktop is usually doing I might actually buy that. A while ago an upstairs neighbor knocked on my door and rather sheepishly asked if I'd mind turning the music down a bit. She admited it was quite lovely, but it had been the same bloody song for three hours and it was getting to be a bit much.

Traditional musicians do not learn music from notation, they pick it up by osmosis. I can only assume that this prediction is a secondary effect and not the primary; in 2007 everyone takes up Celtic whistle/fiddle.

Except the bodhran players.

And they never listen to music anyway.

KFG
Re:The Best Predictions From The Article.... by VGfort · 2006-12-17 03:38 · Score: 1

Overnight the term morphs into "IT 2.0," ...
You know what this means dont you? You coined the phrase, its all over now. It will be submitted on Wikipedia pretty soon and we'll all start seeing articles on Slashdot every 3 days using that phrase. I guess IT 2.0 refers to tech support people that use a triple boot system on their MacBooks (linux, windows, os x).

An executive summary by greg_barton · 2006-12-17 02:01 · Score: 0

"Sun did exactly what we wanted with Java. It still sux0r!"

Re:An executive summary by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 21:13 · Score: 0

Are you retarded?

Crystal Ball time... by starseeker · 2006-12-17 02:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

OK, we all know how useful and accurate these predictions tend to be, but since it's that time of year...

The open-sourcing of Java will have no effect whatsoever on Java's slow decline in favor of dynamic languages (Ruby, Python) and C#.

That depends on what market we are talking about. Open sourcing Java will make a MASSIVE difference in terms of Java's appeal to the open source development community. Whether this translates to more Java software or not I don't know, but there are already some very good programs in Java that are open source (Jedit http://jedit.sourceforge.net/, Jabref http://jabref.sourceforge.net/ and JaxoDraw http://jaxodraw.sourceforge.net/ come readily to mind). Seamless integration with Linux distributions has the potential to make it a much more popular language, and may also result in usability improvements to the environment itself.

Other languages will grow of course, but I would personally be surprised if Java fades too much except perhaps as the "new toy". There is a LOT of Java code out there, and it is doing important work.

The use of the GPL 2 for open-sourcing Java will inhibit the completion and acceptance of the GPL 3 proposal.

I don't understand this. GPL3 will go forward as it is going forward now, with much discussion - I can't imagine any issues Java would raise that aren't already being raised. Anybody with more knowledge of the process and Java know what he's saying here?

Now, just to get into the swing of things, my predictions:

a) Every major Linux distribution will deploy Sun's JRE as a core system component soon after a full open source release is made. Allow six months to replace any pieces that could not be released due to copyright/license issues. The Sun JDK will also see large scale integration.

b) Open source software written in Java that already exists will get a boost in interest and visibility, as it is no longer using a language that is non-free.

c) Graphics performance and native appearance of widgets will be a major focus of interest and effort, possibly resulting in Java applications becoming better integrated visually with the desktop. This may actually cost Java a bit in terms of name recognition, as end users will see less visual evidence of the difference between Java and other languages (I know, I know - that's not what makes Java different, but it's what can be SEEN that counts.)

d) As Linux distributions integrate and include Java by default, it will increase the appeal of both Java and Linux on the server side.

And one that I would like to see proven wrong:

e) No major OEM computer maker will add the Sun JRE as a default part of their desktop, despite it being released as GPL.

--
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org

Re:Crystal Ball time... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:26 · Score: 1, Insightful

e) No major OEM computer maker will add the Sun JRE as a default part of their desktop, despite it being released as GPL.

My parents recently bought a new HP computer that came with the SUN JRE preinstalled.
Re:Crystal Ball time... by oohshiny · 2006-12-17 03:52 · Score: 1

That depends on what market we are talking about. Open sourcing Java will make a MASSIVE difference in terms of Java's appeal to the open source development community.

No, it will merely turn the unacceptable into the unpalatable.

d) As Linux distributions integrate and include Java by default, it will increase the appeal of both Java and Linux on the server side.

Yes, that is likely to happen: Linux distributions will ship with more Java server-side stuff. Nevertheless, PHP-based server apps are still going to be predominant because they're easier to develop and lower footprint.
Re:Crystal Ball time... by LauraW · 2006-12-17 05:17 · Score: 1

b) Open source software written in Java that already exists will get a boost in interest and visibility, as it is no longer using a language that is non-free.
I don't see this making a big difference. Most of the open-source Java software I've seen is aimed at accomplishing a particular task in Java, so the people who would consider using it have already bought in to Java itself. I'm thinking mostly of web development frameworks like Hibernate, Struts, and Webwork. The people using them have already made the decision to do server-side Java; the fact that it's now open-source is nice but not really that big a deal. Maybe I'm biased because I mostly do server-side Java development, and everyone I know who writes that sort of software already uses plenty of open-source libraries.
Re:Crystal Ball time... by kripkenstein · 2006-12-17 05:29 · Score: 1

Furthermore, even if "[Java's use declines] in favor of dynamic languages (Ruby, Python) and C#", that would only be true of Java-as-a-language, not Java-as-a-platform. JRuby and JPython, for example, may increase in use, particularly since Java is/will soon be open-sourced. If there are benefits to running those two languages on the Java platform (and there may be: speed/stability, and perhaps access to Java libraries), there is no reason why not to.
Re:Crystal Ball time... by Mithrandir · 2006-12-17 07:55 · Score: 1

Just replying to your graphics performance point: Have you tried out the JDK 6 graphics performance? They've gone the same way as OS X, Vista and Xgl and now use the native 3D hardware for all rendering operations (in this case it is OpenGL). This has made graphics intensive areas like Swing amazingly fast compared to the previous generations of Java.

This is going to be a negative is for anything based on SWT, which doesn't use the AWT infrastructure, so the Eclipse folks are going to have to get moving on that front or left behind (FWIW, I maintain a port of the OpenGL JSR 231 code to run under SWT so I have a foot in both camps here).

--
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Re:Crystal Ball time... by metamatic · 2006-12-17 12:00 · Score: 1

e) No major OEM computer maker will add the Sun JRE as a default part of their desktop, despite it being released as GPL.

I assume you mean that nobody will add it merely because it is now GPL; there are already major OEM computer makers shipping the JRE by default.

--
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Trollpost by Elektroschock · 2006-12-17 02:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Is is an ivory tower troll. In fact almost no one uses ruby. It may be hot among Nerds and its growing. Java went into the enterprises in the 90th as Cobol did before. C++ was less usable for enterprises. Java looked good and fostered plattform independency, helped to increase interoperability. "Java to go" is as off-topic as the prediction that FreeBSD would take over Linux. Ruby and Python are upcoming languages. Growing but you have to wait for another five years. Open Source Java will mean all Linux systems will ship free Java. Java will get a working GNU compiler native compilation. Java will be the trusted alternative to -- arrrgh patents --- Mono for enterprise applications. SUN knew exactly why they did it. Linux will become a strong Java plattform and with Linux on so many servers that will give Java and Linux a boost.

Re:Trollpost by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 08:43 · Score: 0

Not to nit pick your post, but with the Novell/MS deal, Mono is now free from possible patent litigation from MS. Which is somewhat ironic, that there is open source implementation of C#/.NET on Linux before an open source implementation of Java. Unfortunately, Sun's "community" (community of special interests) approach to Java killed it. For god's sake, Java is just now beginning to get some of the same features as ADO.NET (a disconnected data implementation, for instance).

From a language perspective, Java's lack of enums, structs, properties, god awful UI support, god awful exception handling model, poor integration with native code libraries, outdated security and versioning mechanisms, limited framework, having to use third party framework bolt ons (see Jakarta, Struts) etc... no wonder C#/.NET is taking off. And I say that as a Sun Certified Java Developer. Hopefully, when Java finally goes open source, the community can fix the language and make it practical and competitive again. Of course, this will probably come with the expense of 10,000 different incompatible forks and will result in the death of "write once, run anywhere".

That's my two cents, I'm sure the AC posting will cost this post, but oh well...
Re:Trollpost by tcopeland · 2006-12-17 13:46 · Score: 1

> In fact almost no one uses ruby.

11000 RubyForge users disagree with that...

--
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Re:Trollpost by John+Courtland · 2006-12-17 18:00 · Score: 1

The largest reason Java wasn't O/S was because of the legal shit with MS. Also, as you noted (and you seem to have mentioned this as a con ?) Java has a much more active 3rd party dev community than .NET, which is honestly more healthy than relying on 1st party support only (see 1990's era Nintendo).

--
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Re:Trollpost by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 03:53 · Score: 0

From a language perspective, Java's lack of enums, structs, properties, god awful UI support, god awful exception handling model, poor integration with native code libraries, outdated security and versioning mechanisms, limited framework, having to use third party framework bolt ons (see Jakarta, Struts) etc... no wonder C#/.NET is taking off

Taking off, where? Java has had enums for a long time, structs are nothing more than classes with public fields, properties is meaningless syntactic sugar that helps confusing people, Java's UI is not bad, exception handling works the right way (checked exceptions are better), Java has no security problems whatsoever and versioning has been available since 1999 (the OSGi model, the one Eclipse is based upon).

I am not sure why you mention third party bolt ons, the .Net library is even smaller than java's.
Re:Trollpost by rjshields · 2006-12-18 04:06 · Score: 1

For god's sake, Java is just now beginning to get some of the same features as ADO.NET (a disconnected data implementation, for instance).
ADO dot what now? You can build that on top of JDBC if you need it. Most Java programmers are familiar with lower level stuff and don't need all that high-level crap.
From a language perspective, Java's lack of enums, structs, properties, god awful UI support, god awful exception handling model, poor integration with native code libraries, outdated security and versioning mechanisms, limited framework,
What the...? Clearly you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
having to use third party framework bolt ons (see Jakarta, Struts)
Ahh, choice and availability of third-party software. These are Good Things (TM). More the fool you :P
And I say that as a Sun Certified Java Developer
Sorry, but being able to cut and paste a few lines of code from javaranch.com doesn't add any credibility to your post!

--
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.
Re:Trollpost by Elektroschock · 2006-12-27 03:03 · Score: 1

Show me the code writen in Ruby. In understand why everyone likes Ruby. I guess Ruby will be the web language of choice for the international esperanto congress.

Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:04 · Score: 0

The use of the GPL 2 for open-sourcing Java will inhibit the completion and acceptance of the GPL 3 proposal

Sun choosing to use GPL2 before GPL3 exists is irrelevant to GPL3's acceptance or non-acceptance. Linus' attitude, amongst others, to the GPL3 will have at least some affect on its acceptance. Sun's use of GPL 2 will have none.

If Sun choose not to use GPL3 when it exists then that might conceivably have some impact on others' choices, but probably not much. Anyone who desperately cares about Sun's choice of licenses wouldn't have been using GPL before the Java announcement anyway.

My own predictions by mgkimsal2 · 2006-12-17 02:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

In no particular order:

Java as Open Source will help in creating smaller versions - perhaps very lightweight browser-plugins - optimized for particular use (media, number crunching, etc.). These browser plugins will help revive Java as a thin-client/web2.0 (3.0?) player in browser-based apps, possibly even making some small inroads against Flash. The 'apollo' project from Adobe may put the kibosh on this, but the increased-eyeballs angle will likely prevent a complete obliteration from happening to desktop Java.

Java will become even faster. Although this has happened in 2006, with the release of Java 6, the full impact will be a refitting of the niche Java apps out there to work specifically with Java 6 and the speed improvements there. This will give some Java some good PR points and case studies with the 'Java is slow' crowd (which I'm definately a member of).

(As I think one of the panelists in the article said) - there will be a greater acceptance of dynamic languages (ruby/php/python/etc) in Java shops, as Java6's support for dynamic languages (JSR 223 I think) will help increase productivity for Java devs willing to think outside their javaBox.

--
creation science book

Re:My own predictions by hey! · 2006-12-17 03:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Speaking of smaller, what about J2ME?

Java is for many practical purposes an operating system. What mobile java needs is a packaging system like Debian's or BSD's.

If there were a packaging system, then your (non-trivial) mobile application could reach many more devices. J2ME only exists as a number of proprietary implementations with incompatible libraries, and hard to obtain unless it is bundled with your device. They all pass compliance tests, but the bare minimum API is so bare that they all add some set of additional J2SE features. Use those features and your application is no longer portable.

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Re:My own predictions by Billly+Gates · 2006-12-17 08:20 · Score: 1

Do you know if you have to recompile your java apps with java6 for the speed boast or will the new ajvaVM run them faster?

I wonder if Jedit and Eclipse will see a speed gain with a javac recompile?

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http://saveie6.com/
Re:My own predictions by mgkimsal2 · 2006-12-17 14:43 · Score: 1

I'm not sure. I bet it would help, but I've noticed small improvements (not benchmarked or anything) on netbeans running under Java 6, but I may have just been imagining it. :)

--
creation science book
Re:My own predictions by rjshields · 2006-12-18 04:25 · Score: 1

very lightweight browser-plugins - optimized for particular use (media, number crunching, etc.). These browser plugins will help revive Java as a thin-client/web2.0 (3.0?) player in browser-based apps, possibly even making some small inroads against Flash.
Please God no! I really thought we were past all that. It didn't work the first time, we should learn and move on. Leave browser plugins for the likes of flash and shockwave and Java for big server and desktop apps!

One of my predictions is that we will see a shared VM and class library. This would reduce memory usage across multiple applications and remove the VM start-up time from application start-up. If we can get a browser plugin to use that so there is no delay when a page loads, I might be interested :)

--
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.

links to SYS-CON articles should carry warnings. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:07 · Score: 0

I nearly did stop reading at the words "SYS-CON", since I'd already given them the ad-hit and started reading I carried on. There are a couple of minor insights, some humor and an overwhelming sense that these guys are underestimating the importance of Java going free. GPL Java doesn't need AJAX hype and it's not going to change the world overnight. It is going to be used for new projects in place of C/C++ and yes, even in place of dynamic languages. Saying that Java being placed under GPL will make no difference to it's decline is foolishly short sighted.

JAVA and GLP v3 by MMC+Monster · 2006-12-17 02:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Did anyone really expect JAVA to be released as GPL v3? A license that hasn't even been written yet? Or wait until GPL v3 is released (is there a set date for that?)?

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Re:JAVA and GLP v3 by Schraegstrichpunkt · 2006-12-17 05:58 · Score: 1

Well, some people expected "either version 2 or (at your option) any later version". That would have been more desirable, from the standpoint of everyone except Sun (and perhaps even Sun, if others follow with their own "GPLv2 only" licensing schemes---cf. what happened with the BSD advertising clause), but this will do for now.

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Re:JAVA and GLP v3 by a.d.trick · 2006-12-17 06:07 · Score: 1

Or wait until GPL v3 is released (is there a set date for that?)?

According to the FSF's website, they are planning to release it next spring. I remember some SUN guy talking about it, and they say they like the GPL3, but they want to open source their stuff now.
Re:JAVA and GLP v3 by lnjasdpppun · 2006-12-17 12:27 · Score: 1

Isn't there going to be an exception to allow non-GPL code to link with the Java standard libraries? If I'm remembering that right, it would mean they can't included the 'or later version' clause because it would move to the normal GPL so anything written in (that GPL3 licensed version of) Java would also have to be GPL.
Re:JAVA and GLP v3 by Schraegstrichpunkt · 2006-12-17 14:44 · Score: 1

Huh? GNU classpath and libstdc++ are GPLv2 "or any later version", with the linking exception. I don't follow your reasoning.

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stigma by Threni · 2006-12-17 02:11 · Score: 5, Funny

> Rails creator David Heinemeier Hansson: 'The stigma of being a Web programmer still using Windows will increase.'"

The stigma of a well paid job. Ah, how will I ever show my face in civilized society again.

Re:stigma by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:33 · Score: 0

> The stigma of a well paid job. Ah, how will I ever show my face in civilized society again.

A company needs more money than sense to deploy web apps on Windows. Is this the true face of civilization?
Re:stigma by easter1916 · 2006-12-17 02:34 · Score: 1

I'm a J2EE guy, have to agree. All the snotty little bitches who look down their noses at those who work with particular technologies are the losers. It's a very comfortable living.
Re:stigma by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 13:15 · Score: 0

The stigma of a well paid job.
Drug dealing and prostitution also pay well. The mere fact that you can make a living at it doesn't mean there's no stigma.

I love predictions by diegocgteleline.es · 2006-12-17 02:22 · Score: 1

Who doesn't? Even if they're always wrong (the people who can predict that kind of things are the same people who are behind of the $Big $Companies and know what products and strategies are they releasing in the next year) people don't seems to stop reading them.

It's like horoscope. There's always people wanting to hear what's going to happen in the future. It doesn't really matters what they say - we just want to be told what we want to hear. We love being lied. Some people wants to hear that nobody will be using java the next year, others C#, etc.

that's funny ... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:25 · Score: 1, Interesting

'The open-sourcing of Java will have no effect whatsoever on Java's slow decline in favor of dynamic languages (Ruby, Python) and C#'

That's funny, we're moving away from Ruby and going to Java. :)

(Severe performance problems with anything to do with Ruby and XML)

I think they're right by oohshiny · 2006-12-17 02:27 · Score: 1

The problem with Java has only in part been the license; mostly, it has been Sun's stifling control over the platform. As a result, Java has numerous technical problems. Of course, if Java had been an open standard for the past 10 years, there'd be dozens of independent implementations right now. They'd be partially incompatible, and that would be a good thing.

Overall, open sourcing Java was necessary for Sun to remain relevant at all; it will stabilize Java for a little longer, but unless Sun is willing to make some radical changes to the Java platform--including a massive cleanup and pruning of the libraries--Java is past its peak.

Re:I think they're right by Timesprout · 2006-12-17 02:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

Of course, if Java had been an open standard for the past 10 years, there'd be dozens of independent implementations right now
I love statements like this. The specs for the language have been available since day one. There are a couple of very good alternative implementations (free as in beer) and some very mediocre OSS attempts. Its been a constant source of amusement to me that for all the 'we have all the best developers etc etc etc' the 'community' has harped on at Sun for years to open source because basically they have been unable to produce a comparable implementation on their own. It's for this reason I think Sun opening Java fully will make sod all difference, just as opening Solaris made sod all difference (yes different licence but very much a case of 'ta we'll just cherry pick the good stuff like dtrace and port it to linux').

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Re:I think they're right by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 03:10 · Score: 1, Insightful

The problem with Java has only in part been the license; mostly, it has been Sun's stifling control over the platform

You mean like preventing MSFT from writing their own incomptable version? How long have you been following java for? What exactly has Sun been stifling? Name a couple of things.

As a result, Java has numerous technical problems.

Such as?
Re:I think they're right by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 04:02 · Score: 0

The open source community can't produce a comparable version because the goal line keeps moving. Sun keeps dumping more and more crap into J2SE, so the amount of work that open source developers would need to do keeps on increasing.

In Java 6 they added JavaScript support. So now to have a comparable implementation you need to include a JavaScript engine.

As it stands, the Java standard libraries currently include:

2 GUI libraries, AWT and Swing
2 IO libraries, IO and NIO
2 collection libraries, with the old one retrofitted to match the new one
2 Remote Method Invocation implementations, Java RMI and CORBA
2 XML parsers (DOM and SAX)
A ZIP library
A sound library
Various cryptography APIs
SQL library
And that's not all, I just got tired of looking up the various libraries.

It just keeps on growing with every release. New methods get added to old versions. The API keeps on changing. No open source release can keep up with it because the target keeps on moving further and further away.
Re:I think they're right by Decaff · 2006-12-17 04:29 · Score: 1

Of course, if Java had been an open standard for the past 10 years, there'd be dozens of independent implementations right now. They'd be partially incompatible, and that would be a good thing.

It would have been a total disaster. One of the primary reasons for the success of Java is compatibility.

Overall, open sourcing Java was necessary for Sun to remain relevant at all; it will stabilize Java for a little longer, but unless Sun is willing to make some radical changes to the Java platform--including a massive cleanup and pruning of the libraries--Java is past its peak.

You have to be kidding. It is hard to imagine a set of statements so disconnected from IT reality.

First, you may want to take a look at recent server sales - Sun now sells more servers than Dell. Would you call Dell irrelevant or in decline?

Secondly of all, Java use is still growing - it has recently ranked above C++ on sourceforge. Java is not declining in the face of dynamic languages - in fact, one of the most exciting new implementations of a dynamic language - JRuby - is based on Java! The future is dynamic languages and Java together.

Secondly, the JRE is still relatively small. How long does a 15MB download take these days? A couple of minutes on broadband. Have you ever heard an end user of the JRE complain 'because there are too many libraries'? I haven't.
Re:I think they're right by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 05:16 · Score: 0

There are a couple of very good alternative implementations (free as in beer) and some very mediocre OSS attempts.

All those alternate implementations are derived from Sun's implementation except for Microsoft's original JVM and the OSS implementations. Also Java language specs have complete OSS implementations in the form of compilers and the JVM for a long time. Most of the trouble was with the class libraries which are part of the Java platform. Classpath is probably closest with the 1.5 class libraries nearly done and now the project will die.
Re:I think they're right by Svartalf · 2006-12-17 05:22 · Score: 1

Heh... The Sun classpath's not GPLed yet. If the GNU Classpath is as close as both of us think, there'll be some
merging with only one, the combined effort will result. It's GPLed after all.

--
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Re:I think they're right by angel'o'sphere · 2006-12-17 06:14 · Score: 1

They'd be partially incompatible, and that would be a good thing.
Wha might be a good thing for you (how so, btw?) would be a nightmare for me and my customers.

angel'o'sphere

--
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Re:I think they're right by angel'o'sphere · 2006-12-17 06:17 · Score: 1

Sun is willing to make some radical changes to the Java platform--including a massive cleanup and pruning of the libraries ....

Would you care to point out some stuff to clean up, and show a migration path for old software to teh new cleaned up Java as well, please?

Java has an excellent way in dealing with its libraries, just don't use any depricated stuff in developing new apps. I can't understand that anyone is caring about obsolet stuff in libraries and demands a clean up. The C-library probably got not cleaned up since 30 years, so why bother about Java?

angel'o'sphere

--
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Re:I think they're right by cheesybagel · 2006-12-17 06:18 · Score: 1

Sun opensourcing Solaris made sod all difference because we already had a viable open source operating system which ran on commodity platforms. Linux. Linux has what some management people call the first mover advantage. Solaris would have to be an order of magnitude better than Linux to displace it and it is not. Open sourcing Solaris was too little, too late. Hate it or love it, Linux is the one with the most apps, drivers, not to mention easier to get and well known of the two.

You are belittling the community. Yet I believe Sun is open sourcing Java precisely because the open source alternatives were, for a change, getting close to being Java 5.0 compatible. See the implementation status of GNU Classpath and Apache Harmony if you do not take my word for it. The fact is, the community has the resources to not only make one reimplementation of Java, but several concurrently.
Re:I think they're right by FishWithAHammer · 2006-12-17 07:39 · Score: 0

But the C library does its job well. Java does not.

--
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Re:I think they're right by oohshiny · 2006-12-17 13:06 · Score: 1

The specs for the language have been available since day one.

The specs for the language and libraries still are not available, except under a restrictive license. Furthermore, the "specs" aren't really specs at all, they are merely documentation; specs need to be far more complete.

There are a couple of very good alternative implementations (free as in beer)

All non-OSS implementations (IBM, Blackdown, Apple, etc.) are derived from Sun's source code.

and some very mediocre OSS attempts.

Yes: they're mediocre because there are no open specs for Java. In fact, there are no specs for Java at all; there is only a bunch of documentation, a bunch of reference manuals, and a proprietary and expensive test suite.

Its been a constant source of amusement to me that for all the 'we have all the best developers etc etc etc' the 'community' has harped on at Sun for years to open source because basically they have been unable to produce a comparable implementation on their own

They've been unable to produce a comparable implementation of Java for the same reason they have been unable to produce a comparable implementation of Windows: there is no spec, there is no open standard, the documentation is proprietary, and the vendor keeps changing the platform around.

Apart from lack of compatibility with Sun Java, the open source implementations are as good or better than Sun Java.

I love statements like this.

Wow, you're the typical Sun fanboy: when Microsoft relies on proprietary specs and keeps changing their APIs around, you cry foul, but when Sun does the same to the FOSS community, you think everybody should thank them for it.

Maybe open sourcing Java will address some of these issues--provided it's going to happen, not exactly certain given Sun's history of broken promises.
Re:I think they're right by Decaff · 2006-12-17 13:12 · Score: 1

The open source community can't produce a comparable version because the goal line keeps moving. Sun keeps dumping more and more crap into J2SE, so the amount of work that open source developers would need to do keeps on increasing.

Nonsense. There would have been a significant demand for a high-performance version of Java as it was years ago - even a good Java 1.3 would have been welcomed by many. That has been stable for a very long time.

Also, much of what has been added to J2SE over the past few years has been in terms of Java libraries, not the JVM. A high performance JVM would have worked with those.

It is strange how so many in IT claim that Java is moving too slowly, but those trying to implement it claim it is moving too fast...
Re:I think they're right by oohshiny · 2006-12-17 13:18 · Score: 1

Wha might be a good thing for you (how so, btw?)

It would be a good thing because it would mean that the market, rather than some engineer at Sun, decides what people need.

would be a nightmare for me and my customers.

And in what way do you think it would be a "nightmare"? You're just fear-mongering.
Re:I think they're right by oohshiny · 2006-12-17 13:20 · Score: 1

You mean like preventing MSFT from writing their own incomptable version?

Microsoft has written their own incompatible version.

How long have you been following java for?

I've been a Java developer since 1996.

What exactly has Sun been stifling? Name a couple of things.

GUI toolkits, numerical support, 3D graphics libraries, to name just a few that matter to me.
Re:I think they're right by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 15:38 · Score: 0

Sun won't be merging GNU Classpath into their implementation because they want to be able to dual-license their implementation. In fact, I doubt that Sun will accept any contributions under a free license.

It's an open question how useful Sun's code will be to open source developers; in my experience, Sun's code quality is often poor. Sun's libraries will probably mostly be used as stopgap measures for open source implementations, or for libraries that just don't matter much.
Re:I think they're right by mishagam · 2006-12-17 23:38 · Score: 1

Apart from lack of compatibility with Sun Java, the open source implementations are as good or better than Sun Java.
I have little bit experience with gcj on Fedora - and I completely disagree with this statement. On Fedora even supplied Eclipse didn't work.
Re:I think they're right by oohshiny · 2006-12-18 00:06 · Score: 1

I have little bit experience with gcj on Fedora - and I completely disagree with this statement. On Fedora even supplied Eclipse didn't work.

That's not even a compatibility problem, that's a packaging problem specific to Fedora.

In general, gcj generates executables that are small, efficient, and start up fast, a nice change from Sun Java. It also has many useful libraries that Sun Java lacks.
Re:I think they're right by angel'o'sphere · 2006-12-20 10:21 · Score: 1

And in what way do you think it would be a "nightmare"? You're just fear-mongering.
It's a nightemare if I write an application which is deployed on a Sun java Vm on a Sun Solaris machine wich serves 25 million customers a day, e.g. at amazon.com or ebay.com and the following is happening:
a) my customer switches to HP boxes or AIX boxes
b) my customer switches to a different VM like IBMs or HPs or BEAs JRocket
c) my application dos not run anymore

Who do you think are the guys in big shit now?

1) me ... or do you really think I have the resources, teh man power, the money to prove its the other VM or the other OS responsible that my app does not run any longer?
2) my customer, or do you really think the clients who have a non existing web page anymore, come back happyly tomorrow and try again? Or the day after and try again? No, when I wan't to buy a bok at amazone and the web page is down 2 days, I go to my local book store and buy it.

Standards are good(TM) Yes indeed, free chaning of everything means you are landing on an airport with a to short runway, you take fuel there that does not burn in your engines, you have flight personal commands you don't understand, go and grow up, plx.

angel'o'sphere

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:I think they're right by angel'o'sphere · 2006-12-20 10:24 · Score: 1

How so?

Ever had a buffer overflow in a Java method?

Ever had a buffer overflow in a c function? Huh? Just 2 simple examples.

Claiming that the Java standard libraries don't do their job well, only shows that you have less than 10 years experiance in programming ... not a problem at all, you will catch up.

angel'o'sphere

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:I think they're right by FishWithAHammer · 2006-12-23 16:42 · Score: 1

The Java library is an elephantine monstrosity. Virtually every language (even stuff that does things similarly, like .NET) is cleaner, more easy to use, and doesn't have two entirely separate, deficient-in-different-ways windowing toolkits. That's why I say libc "does its job well". It does not try to overreach and do everything. It does what a core library needs to do, and doesn't try to be more than that.

And the moderator who moderated my post above "overrated" is a dipshit. Don't moderate things overrated because you disagree with them.

--
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."

I disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 02:32 · Score: 0

Well I don't think it was - the guy said that Windows stigma will continue to increase. There currently is no Windows stigma, so how could it possibly continue to increase? I digress...

Anyway, I could stick Boot Camp on a Mac and run Visual Studio .NET on it, but seeing as the PC does all the other stuff a Mac does, why would I want to?

If you are looking at web developers specifically, then VS.NET does constitute a massive tool in the arsenal, and Windows will happily run everything else you need; MS SQL Server, Mysql, Apache, IIS, Perl, PHP, Ruby, Rails, Java, JSP, etc. so I see no reason to stop using it just because some chap with a snow white piece of kit is going to sneer at me pointlessly.

Re:I disagree by easter1916 · 2006-12-17 02:38 · Score: 1

Or seeing as how OS X can do anything Windows can do, why would I want Windows?
Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 05:38 · Score: 0

You mean, besides running any of the software I need? Because that essentially makes it an expensive white paperweight as far as I'm concerned. I don't see why anyone would want a Mac.
Re:I disagree by Tim+C · 2006-12-17 06:07 · Score: 1

Because I already have a perfectly adequate machine with a Windows licence; why would my employers spend the money to buy me a Mac?

--
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:I disagree by Surt · 2006-12-17 06:48 · Score: 1

Because they could double your productivity for $4000?

How much would it cost them to hire another you?

--
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Re:I disagree by bberens · 2006-12-17 07:23 · Score: 1

Because they could double your productivity for $4000?

How much would it cost them to hire another you?

That's only because I can't get any games to run on my mac while I should be working like I do on my PC. =)

--
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 07:29 · Score: 0

$2000, I'm a offshore consultant you insensitive clod!
Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 10:13 · Score: 0

This is every bit as true as buying a 4000$ overpriced hammer from a niche brand will definitely double a carpenter's productivity.

I'd say it's actually a 4000$+ cost to REDUCE your productivity by half, and lock yourself into proprietary hardware in the process.
Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 12:39 · Score: 0

There currently is no Windows stigma
I think there is. I certainly think less of a developer using Windows by choice.
Re:I disagree by rjshields · 2006-12-18 02:35 · Score: 1

Because they could double your productivity for $4000?
ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!11ONE??!??!1

Actually I just installed Linux and quadruplified my productivity.

--
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.

No Agreement by WED+Fan · 2006-12-17 03:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

AJAX is dying. AJAX will grow. AJAX has no future. AJAX has a future.

JAVA is irrelevent. JAVA will grow.

Apple is irrelevent. Apple is irrelevent...oh, they agreed.

Anyway, anyone who takes these kind of articles seriously are wasting their time. Our shop does IIS, ASP.NET, SQL2005, Ruby-on-Rails, MySQL, VB.NET, C#, C++, Borland, MS, and Linux OSS flavors. In other words, we have the tools and the skills to do what is necessary to get the job done, the way our CUSTOMER needs it to be done. No tech prima-dona BS of telling the customer that we won't give them what they want. If the customer doesn't have implementation requirements, then we determine what they need, suggest and then build on their approval.

--
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.

It's cheaper. by FatSean · 2006-12-17 03:20 · Score: 1, Insightful

You don't have to buy the all-show no-go over-priced Apple hardware.

--
Blar.

Re:It's cheaper. by FishWithAHammer · 2006-12-17 04:01 · Score: 1

And you get two hardware mouse buttons on your laptop. ;)

Though honestly, if Apple brought back the trackball mounted on the laptop, I would probably buy one (and immediately nuke OS X in favor of Windows and Linux).

--
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Re:It's cheaper. by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2006-12-17 10:55 · Score: 1

The "overpriced hardware" troll died a long time ago. The Mac Pro is over $1,000 cheaper than the equivalent Dell, and even the MacBook Pro outdoes the equivalent Dell portable on price.

But please, go on justifying your use of an inferior hardware platform still relying on the 25+ year old BIOS.

--
"Sufferin' succotash."
Re:It's cheaper. by jt2377 · 2006-12-17 16:11 · Score: 0

i've checked the Apple stroe. what equivalent MacBook Pro are you talking about? you either get less ram or no LCD with Apple Mac. Do you care to post the link that can show me Mac Pro is not overpriced or are you just farting here?
Re:It's cheaper. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 20:07 · Score: 0

As another posted replied, could you please post a link to these cheap macs? I can't find anything in the Mac Stores that is less than a couple of hundred MORE than the equivalent generic brand platforms?
Re:It's cheaper. by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · 2006-12-17 23:15 · Score: 1

The "overpriced hardware" troll died a long time ago.

Nowadays people say "no better hardware for the price"....

And I'm still amazed Mac fanboy's use Dell as their quality/price yardstick (Wow! better value than a dell!!!!!!121!!!! Amazing!!!!1!!!)

still relying on the 25+ year old BIOS.

Ouch! Mac fans can only point to the bios these days as the Mac/"PC" differentiator. I guess Macs really ARE just PCs with a different bios.

--
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Re:It's cheaper. by rjshields · 2006-12-18 01:22 · Score: 1

Nice troll, but I don't think so. Mac laptops cost around 50% more than the equivalent spec PC laptop when I was looking earlier this year. Inferior? Yeah, that's why Apple hardware has such an awesome reputation for reliability :D

--
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.
Re:It's cheaper. by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2006-12-19 15:23 · Score: 1

Mac laptops cost around 50% more than the equivalent spec PC laptop when I was looking earlier this year.

Absolutely false. MacWorld and other publications have done the blow-by-blow and posted the numbers. Accept it and deal with it. The Mac Pro is even over a grand less.

And Apple does have an awesome reputation for reliability, as well as excellent tech support. I haven't had a Dell that didn't break down within 12 months.

--
"Sufferin' succotash."
Re:It's cheaper. by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2006-12-19 15:26 · Score: 1

And I'm still amazed Mac fanboy's use Dell as their quality/price yardstick (Wow! better value than a dell!!!!!!121!!!! Amazing!!!!1!!!)

Because Dell is touted by PC fanboys as the ultimate affordable PCs. Now Dells are an utter joke, as is Windows.

Ouch! Mac fans can only point to the bios these days as the Mac/"PC" differentiator. I guess Macs really ARE just PCs with a different bios.

That, and the superior hardware and software, such as Mac OS X and iLife. Enjoy clicking "Yes" to Vista's security dialogs every 30 seconds.

There's really no question anymore that Macs are superior to PCs, and that OS X is superior to Windows. It's just a question of when the bitter Mac-haters bite their lips and join everyone else in buying Macs. But again, enjoy your 25+ year old BIOS and your incredibly lame operating system--Windows or Linux.

--
"Sufferin' succotash."
Re:It's cheaper. by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · 2006-12-20 00:02 · Score: 1

Because Dell is touted by PC fanboys as the ultimate affordable PCs.

Really? I thought they were used to demonstrate mac vs a middle of the line wintel affordability. I believe Asus PCs, (manufactured by the same chinese factory workers [1]) as Macs are cheaper than Dells. White box [2] PCs are even cheaper.

That, and the superior hardware and software, such as Mac OS X and iLife.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! You said hardware & only listed software.

that OS X is superior to Windows.

Well, at least we agree on something!

But again, enjoy your 25+ year old BIOS and your incredibly lame operating system--Windows or Linux.

But, but, what if I run netBSD on a mac? Am I using a mac or a PC? Is it still a really lame system? Does the hardware suck now I've put netBSD on it? Is it a PC if I boot into windows?

[1] Our foreign factory workers are only forced to work more than 60 hours a week over the christmas period -Apple Spokesperson

[2] Ironic that whitebox is used to describe cheap non-mac PCs huh?

--
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.

Wait, what C# is a "dynamic language"? by feijai · 2006-12-17 03:22 · Score: 0

C# has practically identical typing semantics to Java. Either this is a misquote or Gary Cornell is much, much stupider than his PhD would suggest.

Re:Wait, what C# is a "dynamic language"? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 03:34 · Score: 0

Option 3: you misread the quote. It's not "dynamic languages (Ruby, Python and C#)". It's "dynamic languages...and C#." Read it again.
Re:Wait, what C# is a "dynamic language"? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 04:16 · Score: 0

That's what jumped out to me. He has no idea what he's talking about.

Don't believe the hype people. The biggest difference between "static" and "dynamic" languages is that dynamic languages are more likely to run a lot slower and programs implemented in them are less likely to be correct. There aren't any programs that can be implemented in one and not the other. Beware of folks that latch on to that buzz word, usually they don't know what they are talking about. Similar to the OO people, how many can explain the difference between modeling and implementation?

Is there any evidence that Java is actually "in decline?" If so it's certainly to C# and not Ruby.

The blur of SOA and AJAX line is funny too. Why limit the concept of SOA to such a small domain as the presentation layer? Does he not understand the concept? These guys aren't engineers, don't expect them to know engineering.

C/C++ is the pussy language. by FatSean · 2006-12-17 03:37 · Score: 1

My J2EE applications are running in 5 datacenters on 4 continents and keeping in sync using features built into the container that cost me nothing to implement past some configuration.

So nyah :P

--
Blar.

Re:C/C++ is the pussy language. by geckofiend · 2006-12-17 03:53 · Score: 0, Troll

Wow 5 whole data centers? I'm impressed, really I am.

You sound just like the guys bragging about the "enterprise" apps they built with VB.
Re:C/C++ is the pussy language. by Threni · 2006-12-17 05:41 · Score: 1

Your use of double quotes suggests you don't think it's possible to write enterprise apps in VB. You're wrong - you can; I do - and you get paid pretty well for it. People used to say VB was slow. Maybe it was, once. Who cares? It's not now - either VB6 or the new versions.

I could easily learn to write stuff for Linux in other languages, but why bother? It would be more, harder work, for less money, so what's the point? Get in - get the job done - move onto something else.

People who slag off a language betray ignorance of when it's the right time to use it.
Re:C/C++ is the pussy language. by pyite · 2006-12-17 11:14 · Score: 1

People who slag off a language betray ignorance of when it's the right time to use it.

Great quote. Since learning MATLAB years ago, I have probably saved days of my own time. In my opinion, even though it's slow, it's one of the most amazing languages every written.

--
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

My Prediction For 2007: JDJ Continues To Suck by Teckla · 2006-12-17 03:44 · Score: 0

My predictions for 2007:

Java Developers Journal will continue to suck
Java Developers Journal contributors will continue to suck
Java Developers Journal will continue to be irrelevant
Smart people will continue to ignore Java Developers Journal

Re:My Prediction For 2007: JDJ Continues To Suck by Jonboy+X · 2006-12-17 08:03 · Score: 1

The sad thing is, JDJ used to be it for Java/J2EE news. Granted, sys-con has always been a whore of a publisher (ColdFusion Developers' Journal, anyone?), but JDJ once had insightful news and information that an actual factual professional Java developer could use to better perform his/her job. Nowadays, it's just thinly-veiled pimping for frameworks that no one will ever use, often written in bad Engrish. I think they jumped the shark when Alan Williamson took over as chief editor back in '02. I always loved the guy's columns, but he had a hard time saying "no" to bad articles. When they guessed wrong and started pushing EJB real hard (despite the industry's complete lack of enthusiasm), that was the last straw. Hell, even Williamson himself acknowledged as much in his blog.

I started getting it for free in the late nineties, and was grandfathered in even when they started charging for it. I let my free subscription lapse long ago.

--

"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al

My prediction for 2007 by Kohath · 2006-12-17 03:56 · Score: 1

Pundits will continue to confuse "buzz" with reality. Professionals who work in a field will make choices based on getting their work done. Outside observers will base their knowledge on what seems new and trendy.

Wrong Tim! by BitwizeGHC · 2006-12-17 04:01 · Score: 1

3. In what is heralded as the seminal article on the subject, Tim Berners-Lee mentions "IT2"

I don't think TBL would be so buzzwordy. Tim O'Reilly on the other hand...

--
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!

BTW, Java is far from "dead" or even a coma by msobkow · 2006-12-17 04:08 · Score: 5, Informative

Out of all the interviews I did this year, only one shop wanted .Net services, and they wanted VB, not C#. Half a dozen shops about the same size were sticking with Java. Half a dozen shops several times the size were also sticking with Java.

I think it's a lot easier to add unsigned types to Java than it is to switch to a new framework.

--
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.

Re:BTW, Java is far from "dead" or even a coma by newt0311 · 2006-12-17 11:18 · Score: 1

Just out of curiosity, where would unsigned types be used?

Java and Eclipse run on Windows by msobkow · 2006-12-17 04:15 · Score: 1

As you say, use the right tool for the job. If you have a Linux, AIX, Windows, Solaris, or other box, the odds are it runs Java and Eclipse.

My own pet project work has moved from platform to platform for a decade or so, shifting from Borland JBuilder to Sun's tools and eventually Eclipse. Java 1.0-1.5 have always been true to the concept of platform neutrality.

GPLv2 is not a detractor. If Oracle can mandate that the web users have to be counted and the number of web sessions limited, then clearly the GPLv2 demands to release source apply to any web-deployed application as well. Only users WITHIN an organization are allowed to access GPLv2 based application enhancements without publishing those changes back to the community.

--
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.

lame by namekuseijin · 2006-12-17 04:19 · Score: 1

"The open-sourcing of Java will have no effect whatsoever on Java's slow decline in favor of dynamic languages (Ruby, Python) and C#"

I can certainly understand the appeal of ruby or python to write clear code. But the author then pulls a C# out of nowhere and places it in the same bag! Does he even know C# the language is almost an exact copy of Java the language plus a few Delphi touches?

--
I don't feel like it...

Shh! by Midnight+Thunder · 2006-12-17 04:28 · Score: 2, Funny

I read this on a messageboard years ago, it still makes me laugh to this day.

Yup, Gnutella, Azureus and Eclipse users (amongst others) running these programs on Linux, Windows, MacOS X, etc will be scratching their head wondering what voodoo their programs are coded in (it has to be voodoo if Java is dead).

Ah well, people living in their ivory tower will always assume the alteratives are dead.

--
Jumpstart the tartan drive.

Re:Shh! by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 05:14 · Score: 0

I wish Guntella was not in Java. I cannot stand to use Azureus and much prefer uTorrent (that's in C, mind you). Eclipse drives me mad. Java applications are extreme memory hogs, the Java GUI libraries absolutely suck with the world's worst redraw algorithms (slow like hell like GTK+ [on Windows?], Firefox, etc.), and the slower start up is exceptionally annoying.

I vehemently avoid Java programs, and so do people I know. We'd only use a program written in Java if there really was no alternative.

I have a 3.2 GHZ processor, and I'm not anywhere near on a '98 computer.
Re:Shh! by Nataku564 · 2006-12-17 08:12 · Score: 2, Informative

I haven't used Azureus or Gnutella, so I can't comment on them. Eclipse, however, I love. Try comparing the memory requirements of Eclipse to any other modern IDE, and you will find that it is (in general) lower than its contemporaries.

I use Visual Studio 2005 (C#) and Eclipse (Java/Perl) at work. Eclipse will generally eat up about 80 Mb of memory when I have the main projects open. Visual Studio, on the other hand, will eat up 100+ Mb easily - and it page faults like a mofo, trying to do disk writes every time you switch your focus. 2003 wasn't quite as bad in terms of page faults, but it still ate up over 100 Mb of memory easy, and thats without any dynamic compilation (C#).
Re:Shh! by newt0311 · 2006-12-17 11:21 · Score: 1

Hmm. Emacs is not really IDE so it wouldn't be that great a comparison. I think it is definately possible however (and probably not even that hard) with some lisp coding. In that case, it would probably win out with its nice 12.2 megs (on my computer) allocated.
Re:Shh! by macshit · 2006-12-17 16:31 · Score: 1

I've been running eclipse for the first time recently, working on a very large java project with someone else.

I've been very pleasantly surprised with it. Even though I'm using a pretty low-spec machine for this day and age -- a 450 MHz PIII with 512 MB of ram -- eclipse is absolutely fine, indeed it's quite responsive and solid. Of course when it needs to rebuild the entire project for some reason, it takes a while, but for normal usage, it's great.

I imagine it's very spiffy indeed on a more modern box!

[This is using Sun's java 1.5.0 JDK/JRE btw]

--
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Re:Shh! by cferthorney · 2006-12-17 23:53 · Score: 1

Eclipse is brilliant, I use it when coding. Netbeans is faster for Swing apps in my opinion, but MyEclipse solves that. I even use Eclipse plugins for my perl and PHP development, an "all in one" IDE me thinks. Certainly as far as I am concerned.
Re:Shh! by Allador · 2006-12-18 11:22 · Score: 1

This isnt really a relevant comparison. The memory requirements of Eclipse are whatever you tell them to be.

In our projects in Eclipse, we configure the startup commands to use between 128 and 512MB of ram (in addition to the permsize settings):

C:\java\ides\eclipse\eclipse.exe -clean -data C:\java\projects -vmargs -Xms128M -Xmx512M -XX:PermSize=64M -XX:MaxPermSize=128M

Now I dont recall off the top of my head (and this machine doesnt have it installed), but there should be a way in VS2005 to tell it to use more main memory, and not go into swap.

And to be honest, if you're quibbling over 20MB of memory on a developer workstation, then you're not really using the right tools for the job. Dual core machines with 2GB of memory and fast disk subsystems should be the norm if you're doing java on anything but the smallest projects.

Dynamic languages ? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 04:33 · Score: 0

You mean, things like Ruby, Python or PHP running on an open-source JVM ?

Uno by simpl3x · 2006-12-17 04:50 · Score: 1

Have you ever heard of the Buddha Box?

Heh... Java's got it's place, but... by Svartalf · 2006-12-17 05:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

In reality, Java's got it's place. But if you're trying to push massive volumes of data or need deterministic operation, Java's NOT the choice.
The GC will always cut in at the worst possible times, impacting your ability to respond to data, etc. YOU try collecting 30 Gbytes of uncompressed
data daily with it sometime. We did use Java for front-ends to process the feeds coming from the trading markets at one of my previous jobs, but
the stuff that aggregated it and sent it to the trading engine and preserved it on disk was all PURE C++ code. The Java stuff couldn't cut it.

I certainly wouldn't use it to control anything like a nuclear reactor or a fly-by-wire system, let alone the task I mentioned.
Java's good for normal business apps, user interfaces where performance isn't absolutely critical, and the like. Something
like C/C++, Pascal, Ada, or even Forth would be a better choice in areas like those.

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas

Re:Heh... Java's got it's place, but... by voidptr · 2006-12-17 05:33 · Score: 1

I certainly wouldn't use it to control anything like a nuclear reactor That's probably a good idea since the Java license says:

You acknowledge that Licensed Software is not designed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility. I wonder if they'll leave that clause in there when it goes GPL.

--
This .sig for unofficial government use only. Official use subject to $500 fine.

Java is doing better than ever IMHO. by TheNarrator · 2006-12-17 05:35 · Score: 3, Informative

I have been programming in Java since 2000 and it just gets easier and more powerful to develop with. Sure there were some big disasters in Java land like EJB1 and EJB2 but that's all cleared out of the way and the tools now are fantastic. I've been working with Appfuse, JSF, Hibernate, Testng, Spring and the latest versions of Eclipse and almost every day I find myself smiling with glee at how easy web development has become compared to a few years ago. The biggest mistakes for new developers in Java is not using Eclipse and not using either Maven or Appfuse. That's because there's a lot to take advantage of in Java land and getting all the tools and dependencies set up and rolling along can take quite a while. Both Maven and Appfuse make this process go a lot quicker and tend to steer the developer in the right direction. Eclipse makes understanding the whole thing a lot easier as well and the refactoring and debugging are amazing. After the initial setup though things start to become very easy and fun and development goes quickly. This is the opposite situation from programming in a dynamic language. Starting in a dynamic language is easy but as programs grow, the lack of static typing and refactoring support causes more and more bugs to start sprouting up and the system generally get more painful to work with.

I don't know why anyone would want to work with C#. I never run into showstopper bugs in third party libraries with Java because I have the source and can trace into the libraries, find the bugs, report them to the developers and then find an intelligent workaround while a $35 call to MS tech support will tell me to reinstall my whole system and upgrade to the latest versions.

Re:Java is doing better than ever IMHO. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 05:47 · Score: 0

Eclipse makes understanding the whole thing a lot easier as well and the refactoring and debugging are amazing. After the initial setup though things start to become very easy and fun and development goes quickly. This is the opposite situation from programming in a dynamic language. Starting in a dynamic language is easy but as programs grow, the lack of static typing and refactoring support causes more and more bugs to start sprouting up and the system generally get more painful to work with.

if you need an IDE to help you understand your own code, youre already on the wrong page. I do Java full time using TextMate and a command line, and its no small application we develop. Dynamic languages don't suffer because theres no IDE or static type checker...only people who cant imagine how to work without an IDE think that way.
Re:Java is doing better than ever IMHO. by TheNarrator · 2006-12-17 06:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Using an IDE no matter if one is a rockstar or an average programmer is going to make work go quicker. There's more than enough things to think about on any given project and and IDE just lets one focus better on the more interesting parts of the project instead of things like repetitively typing import statements.
Re:Java is doing better than ever IMHO. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 08:45 · Score: 0

apparently you haven't used eclipse, sure, you need to have the know-how, but this IDE helps you do a LOT of things in a very short timespan. It also extends it to the entire project by using projects as mylar, doing modeling in it with round trip engineering support.

I do agree that it can't make you a superhero programmer if you suck, but if you are already a great programmer it will make you invincible!
Re:Java is doing better than ever IMHO. by metamatic · 2006-12-17 12:05 · Score: 1

...IDE just lets one focus better on the more interesting parts of the project instead of things like repetitively typing import statements.

If Java's import didn't suck so much, you wouldn't have the problem to start with. One problem of Java is that importing packages doesn't import dependencies. For instance, org.xml.sax.XMLReader is no use without org.xml.sax.helpers.XMLReaderFactory, yet importing the former doesn't bring in the latter.

Java is just too painful to write without an IDE. Ruby, on the other hand, is not painful even with nothing more than a text editor.

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

Re:Those programs are good, but unusable. by Arslan+ibn+Da'ud · 2006-12-17 05:51 · Score: 1

Quoth the parent:
"jEdit offers some really nice features, but until its performance is improved 30 fold, it just won't be a suitable replacement for other graphical text editors."

Java's JRE is big enough that it puts a damper on any program starting up very quickly. So I wouldn't use jedit (or any other Java program) for quick-startup tasks. I'd sooner bring it up once, use it to edit lots of files for a long time, keep it around even if not using it, just so it's there again if I need it.

Sort of like emacs. So jedit is more likely to replace emacs than vi :)

s/jedit/your favorite Java app/g;

--

Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.

C# is a dynamic language???? by Vicegrip · 2006-12-17 05:54 · Score: 1

C# is a compiled language, not an interpreted (dynamic) language and is no different than java in this respect.

--
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.

Re:C# is a dynamic language???? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 06:40 · Score: 0

it says in favor of dynamic languages(Ruby, Python) and C#

notice the word seperating dynamic languages and C#(here's a hint I just repeated it). If C# were a dynamic language it'd be in the brackets with Python and Ruby.
Re:C# is a dynamic language???? by Tim+C · 2006-12-17 06:42 · Score: 1

The quote says "dynamic laguages ([examples]) and C#" - it doesn't say "dynamic languages ([examples one of which is C#])".

In other words, he's not saying that C# is dynamic, he's saying that Java is losing ground to C# and dynamic languages. (Never mind that there appears to be no proof of that, and that it's not my experience, for what that's worth...)

--
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:C# is a dynamic language???? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 08:02 · Score: 0

interpreted (dynamic) language

"Interpreted" is not the same as "dynamic".

Re:I predict by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 05:56 · Score: 1, Funny

I predict Java will still require 2 gigs of RAM and a Quad-Core CPU

Oh, you mean it will catch up with Ruby?

'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by Shayde · 2006-12-17 06:09 · Score: 3, Informative

The ONLY people who think Java is in decline in favor of Ruby or Python are the ivory tower academics who aren't actually developing large scale enterprise applications. Neither of these tools can manage true EE environment. Or if they can, the number of people who know how to build, maintain, and debug them is so tiny, it would be ludicrous to adapt a large installation to the platform.

An environment is only as useful as the tools that are available for it. And it only takes a quick glance around the net to realize how HUGE the Java community is.

Still not convinced? Lets take a look at Hotjobs. This is a pure keyword lookup, doing a little tuning to make sure we're not finding jeweler entries for 'ruby' :

'java' 8213 job results.
'python' 671 job results.
'ruby' 180 job results.

And just for giggles, lets throw some more searches:

'php' 1063 job results.
'c#' 2092 job results.
'c++' 5482 job results.
'perl' 3197 job results.

So, in support of the claim that Java is in 'slow decline', we have... java as the most requested programming language in the job market today.

--
Event Management Solutions : http://www.stonekeep.com/

Re: TROLL??? Duh, no. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 06:11 · Score: 0

Whoever mod'd the parent as a troll is an asshat.

I Just. Don't. Get. It. by IdahoEv · 2006-12-17 06:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

The entire IT reporting industry, and Slashdot. Writes about languages these days as if there is only one task in the world: web apps whereby users insert and retrieve basic data to/from a database. Yeah, for those apps you bet Java is losing ground to modern interpreted languages.

But there are a thousand other types of projects for which other environments might excel.

One of my current projects is a desktop app that does real-time signal processing on a live microphone feed, and produces a full-screen GUI with output of the signal that updates at 30+ FPS. Between the signal processing and graphics, it needs to do some hundreds of megaflops, effective - interpreted languages are a couple of orders of magnitude slower doing raw math. Java is pushing the low end of speed for this app.

At the same time, we want the benefit of a multiplatform release, because the project is for the education and music professional markets - there are an awful lot of macs among our target market, and our competitors are PC-only. Java has actually come through on the write-once-run-anywhere promise for us, straight down to the live audio input. We're just 2 developers - how much longer would it have taken us to have to port C++ between different platforms' APIs? Way too long. And we can't even consider platform-specific environments like C# or ObjectiveC/Cocoa.

Use the right tool for the right job. There are times when Ruby's the right tool - and times when it ain't. There are plenty of niches still where nothing else can remotely fill Java's shoes.

--
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.

Re:'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by Surt · 2006-12-17 06:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

Indeed, and guess which language was in slow decline when it was the most requested language in the job market.

--
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking

Re:'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by redbaritone · 2006-12-17 06:57 · Score: 1

Why didn't you throw COBOL into this mix? There's still quite a demand for this, too.

Personally, I just hope... by caudron · 2006-12-17 07:30 · Score: 1

Personally, I just hope that the Java of the future will look and run much less like ass. That would be a great departure from the old Java.

Right about now, you are moving your mouse toward the "Mod this fruitcake down" button, but don't misunderstand me. I have high hopes for the language. I have been saying for a number of years that Sun had been letting a hot property fall into disrepair while MS played catch up and eventually lapped Java with it's own .NET platform. I've written for both. I like java, basically, but I've recommended C#.NET to clients for numerous reasons.

Since all my home computers use Linux exclusively, I'd love to see some real competition to mono as a platform. An open sourced Java could be it.

Oh, for those still looking to mod me down for speaking poorly of "the precious", you should know you are living in a bubble. Talk to the average corporate developer. The vast vast vast majority of them will say the same thing. "Java? Oh that's that ugly gui stuff, right? Yeah, I don't like Java apps." I've fought the battle long enough to know. Without some fresh blood and a new outlook in the Java camp, it will continue to be further marginalized in favor of .NET and mono.

Seriously, how many java apps have made it into Gnome core? How many are even discussed in terms of their value to the end user? Now ask that about mono apps? Tomboy. Beagle. F-Spot. Muine. These apps are making waves. Where are the equivalent Java apps? Eclipse? An IDE isn't exactly the sort of thing to get the end user salivating. A couple of more obscure file sharing tools? Nothing that has the publics attention. Hell, even us open source guys have written Java off.

So for 2007 what do I wish for from Java? A fresh perspective. A renewed interest in delivering the sort of platform and apps that mono and .NET have done. A genuine competitor to mono on Linux. Embrace SWT instead of Swing. I won't call it a prediction, but I sure hope I'm right.

Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/

--
-Tom

Re:'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by heroofhyr · 2006-12-17 07:33 · Score: 1

I won't pretend I've done the research to disagree or agree with either statement. But just doing a keyword search doesn't prove anything about what the "velocity" of any of those languages are, nor does it say how they compare. Saying there's 8213 Java openings compared to 180 for Ruby or 671 for Python doesn't really tell me what the numbers were a month or a year ago. I can do a search for the number of people with HIV in the world, but that single value won't indicate anything meaningful other than that it's non-zero. If you were trying to say that there are far more Java job offers than the other mentioned languages, congratulations. But what you're actually claiming is, "So, in support of the claim that Java is in 'slow decline', we have... java as the most requested programming language in the job market today." If the number of Java offers in 2005 were 0.3% higher than the number you just gave, that would indicate that indeed there is a slow decline. If it were 50% lower, there would have been a sharp increase. But there's no way of telling what the change is, so the "research" you've done cannot support any claim either way. In other words it indicates that there are a lot of job offers for Java and not so many for Ruby or PHP or Perl etc., but that doesn't tell me what the rate of change is, what the numbers are like on Monster.com or any other site, whether those Java offers are really for "large scale enterprise applications" or just applets and midlets, etc. I'm willing to take a blind guess that's based on nothing but anecdotal experience with doing job searches last year on the Austrian equivalent of HotJobs, but I'm wagering far more of those 5000 C++ offers are for enterprise apps or demanding software development in scientific and academic fields than the number of the same types of offers for Java programmers. Then again it would be easier to guess how accurate I am if the data listed in the post above mine actually meant anything.

--
brandelf: invalid ELF type 'KEEBLER'

Cornell = incompetent? by Matz+L.E. · 2006-12-17 07:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

Cornell: 'The open-sourcing of Java will have no effect whatsoever on Java's slow decline in favor of dynamic languages (Ruby, Python) and C#';

In 2007, apples still won't be oranges.

You can disagree all want, but read the full quote by brokeninside · 2006-12-17 07:42 · Score: 1

``Apple will continue to trounce everyone else for the preferred geek platform. The stigma of being a Web programmer still using Windows will increase.''

The key question here is what did Hansson mean by preferred geek platform? It seems pretty clear that he's not speaking of Apple's web platform, Web Objects, but of Apple hardware. And if he wasn't speaking directly to Web Objects, the only other standard web dev software Apple puts out is Apache and the other OSS that comes bundled with OS X. It doesn't make any sense to single Apple out for that when the same can run on Windows and comes with just about every flavor of Linux.

No, Hansson must have been referring to the fact that techies with Apple kit, regardless of what OS they're running on them, are the cool kids in town.

Re:Heh... Java's got it's place, but... by Kymermosst · 2006-12-17 07:53 · Score: 2, Informative

The GC will always cut in at the worst possible times

Try using the parallel collector on a multi-CPU machine. Much less impact on the running application. You should also spend some time learning how to tune the VM and GC parameters if that's your problem.

YOU try collecting 30 Gbytes of uncompressed data daily with it sometime.

I'm not quite at 30 gigs a day, but the systems I work on will reach that within a year or so. We don't expect that it will be a problem.

--
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Re:'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by Shados · 2006-12-17 07:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Agreed. I'm a software developer working mostly on ERP systems in medium to large scale projects, and while I work in .NET 2.0 and 3.0, while speaking to people in the industry (mostly consulting firms), Java is actualy in GROWING demand.

Currently, in my area, Java -junior- programmers get snatched right up. You don't hire junior programmers in a declining industry, you hire senior programmers (because by the time the juniors become senior, the environment will be history). There has been an increasing amount of projects in Java, especialy since Java 1.5, since that was quite the milestone. Same with the last few J2EE versions.

On top of that, now in the latest specs, EJB 3.0 is actualy useful (and doesn't have to be systematicaly replaced by third party frameworks).

Now, on top of all this, more and more schools are using Java as a teaching tool. Which means all these people that come out of school, will be wanting to use their skills. Thus more demand, more support, more projects.

In the hardcore enterprise world, the only thing that can match this is .NET, and thats Windows-only (Mono cannot deal with Enterprise level projects), leaving Java with all the Windows projects not using .NET, and all the non-Windows stuff. Thats a lot, and as Windows' monopoly slows down a bit, it increases.

The one exception to this is the high end R&D stuff, which tends to use Python/C++ or something along that line (I beleive thats what Google use for a lot of things?), but thats a different market altogether.

Agreed, just like OS X by SashaMan · 2006-12-17 08:12 · Score: 1

Agreed. I think that open sourcing Java will make Java on Linux very similar to Java on OS X. In OS X, an end user can hardly recognize that Java apps aren't native because Java ships with the OS and the default swing look-and-feel is Aqua. With Java free to be a core Linux component, a similar end user experience is possible on Linux.

Re:OSX is for fags by JebusIsLord · 2006-12-17 08:31 · Score: 2, Funny

"rails-tards" huh? You should write for commedy.

--
Jeremy

You've got it all wrong by noamsml · 2006-12-17 09:04 · Score: 1

If there's no stigma, it can't decrease. It can always increase.

--
My new blog

Re:'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by eggywat · 2006-12-17 09:56 · Score: 1

They said slow decline, your numbers are irrelevant. They only show which is currently more dominant. http://bymyreckoning.com/

The stigma of being DHH on the other hand... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 10:11 · Score: 0

This is pretty typical rhetoric from DHH ... if the Rails folks really want to divide the world into opposing camps, let me tell you as someone on the Java side: you can keep him.

Good money after bad. by twitter · 2006-12-17 10:17 · Score: 1

The stigma of a well paid job. Ah, how will I ever show my face in civilized society again?

Money spent on software licenses is money that won't go into your pocket. Bill Gates is happy that he's still on your company's payroll, despite the trouble you have getting work done with his junk.

--

Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

Re:Good money after bad. by Threni · 2006-12-17 10:36 · Score: 1

I get work done pretty easily with Bill's `junk`. At my current job my customers are members of staff, using their existing PCs, running Windows (practically everyone uses at Windows PC at work), so there's no extra cost - you're making the most of existing OS costs.
Re:Good money after bad. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 10:55 · Score: 0
twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.
- As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
- Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
- A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
- Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
- Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
- Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
- Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
- Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
- Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
- There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.
From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

What about operator overloading? by everphilski · 2006-12-17 10:34 · Score: 1

Thats what kills java for me ... I stick to C++ and c# for that reason alone.

Re:What about operator overloading? by msobkow · 2006-12-17 16:58 · Score: 1

Operator overloading is syntactic sugar. What is the difference between a C++ "+" overload and a Java "add" method in the context of abstract interfaces? Granted operator overloading lets you write more concise code, but the functionality is equivalent.
I've spent many long years in C, C++, Java, and other languages. Procedural, object oriented, and functional languages all form "families" of equivalent capability. If anything, they find their roots in Pascal/Modula, Smalltalk, and LISP as their seminal releases.

--
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Re:What about operator overloading? by everphilski · 2006-12-18 05:02 · Score: 1

Operator overloading is syntactic sugar.

When you are an engineer who spends 99% of his code writing mathematical routines using classes (tensors, for instance), "syntactic sugar" is the difference between real cooking oil and olestra.

(pulled directly from thesis work)

c++
dpdqdr = iframe.inv()*transframe*iframe*pqr + iframe.inv()*LMN;
In Java it would be something like:

dpdqdr.Set( (iframe.inv()).mult( transframe.mult( iframe.mult( pqr ) ) ) + (iframe.inv()).mult( LMN));

And God help you if a parenthesis is moved. I'll take the real sugar, please.
Re:What about operator overloading? by statusbar · 2006-12-19 02:20 · Score: 1

This is so true.

I like and use java but miss operator overloading for numeric and numeric collections classes.

In addition, it is mind-blowing to me that the standard java classpath includes so many different libraries and gives you so much functionality, yet it is still missing standard classes for complex numbers, vectors, and matrices. These are things that really ought to be in the standard library, implemented with Altivec or SSE3 or what-have-you via JNI for optimum performance.

It makes programming advanced math projects in C++ a breath of fresh air !

--jeffk++

--
ipv6 is my vpn
Re:What about operator overloading? by d-rock · 2006-12-20 03:19 · Score: 1

You and the parent might be interested in Scala:

http://scala.epfl.ch/

Hybrid OO/Functional language that compiles down to JVM and CLR bytecode. It supports operator overloading as well as a lot of other cool things. There are even Eclipse and Emacs plugins for dev work :).

Derek

--
Don't Panic...
Re:What about operator overloading? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-26 07:12 · Score: 0

When you are an engineer who spends 99% of his code writing mathematical routines using classes (tensors, for instance), "syntactic sugar" is the difference between real cooking oil and olestra.

Makes sense if you're in a specialized field. Although methinks that the integration of the Java platform with Mathematica might still be interesting for you to look at.

Starting with J2SE 6, the Java platform offers support for scripting languages -- some of which offer operator overloading. You might want to take a look at that as a solution to have elegance of expression and at the same time unlock the wealth of the available class libraries. If you're looking for that, that is.

C++ MP Toolkits by Nicolay77 · 2006-12-17 10:49 · Score: 1

There are C++ multi-platform toolkits: at least Qt and wxWidgets are of professional quality. Audacity is written with wxWidgets and runs in Windows, Linux and Mac.

I don't object about using Java in your project, it's a sensible decision in a team with only two programmers.

However to say that there are no alternatives is very short sighted. It's better to say that there are alternatives but you have choosen the best one for your programming team.

Also keep in mind that creating a C++ object in the stack is 25 times faster than creating a Java object (even with the server VM) according to my benchmarks. So a sightly bigger team using C++ would possibly make software that outperforms yours and uses smaller amounts of memory, if somebody would like to invest in that team.

However, I do agree with your point, Web-only applications are dumbing down this industry.

--
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.

Re:C++ MP Toolkits by jt2190 · 2006-12-30 09:09 · Score: 1

Also keep in mind that creating a C++ object in the stack is 25 times faster than creating a Java object (even with the server VM) according to my benchmarks...

If there's one thing we should all know by now, it's that benchmarking the performance of Java bytecode running on a JVM with a Just in Time compiler is very, very tricky. Modern JVMs may apply optimizations to your code while it's running, based on the way the code is actually being used.

Take a look at the slides from Dr. Clifford Click's presentation Java Technology Performance Myths Exposed (PDF) and at Performance Considerations for Run-Time Technologies in the .NET Framework by Emmanuel Schanzer to get an idea of how your code is manipulated at runtime to increase performance. Also, Performance of Java versus C++ by J.P.Lewis and Ulrich Neumann discusses some of the difficulties of benchmarking Java.

Tis the season to disagree... by mbbx6spp · 2006-12-17 11:05 · Score: 1

OK, Java, Ruby, .NET, Linux, BSD, Solaris, Mac and Windows fans - chill!

I love you all, but you do bicker too much.

I cannot comment much on .NET, but three top notch Windows/MS developers I have known for years have said this about .NET: many of the standard widgets produce non-standard, non-validating (X)HTML and CSS. This is a fairly big deal, which hopefully future versions of .NET will rectify eventually. Other than this major point that they keep drilling down on, they are happy from a productivity perspective of developing on the .NET platform.

As a huge Ruby and Rails fan, I still think Java should remain in the enterprise as opposed to Ruby/Rails. The reason is simple: going enterprise killed Java's productivity gains. I mean this in the nicest way, because until 3 years ago I thought Java was the dog's tuxedo. Couldn't imagine using another language for any type of development.

Ruby isn't perfect, neither is Rails. I make no such assertion. There are areas where using Java as an example might benefit the future development and progress of Ruby and/or Rails. However, I suggest the reverse is also true.

I have two examples: (a) automatic server application deployment; (b) dependency management of external libraries (like RPMs).

(a) In the Ruby/Rails world we have Capistrano, which provides a very nice *start* towards a comprehensive tool to help automate the deployment process (in various environments if necessary) for server application environments. In Java/J[2]EE world there is the JMX API, but you must write your own Java/Beanshell/Groovy, etc deployer based on a fine grained API. Capistrano provides a more intuitive way, easier (less fuss) way to create deployment "recipes" to save time. Again Capistrano is not perfect, but a great start considering Rails has only been around for 2 years and J[2]EE has been around for 6+ years. I continually search sourceforge, java.net, codehaus and similar OSS project websites seeking such a tool that is in active development and has a remotely similar feature set to Capistrano for the Java world utilizing JMX, but it does not seem to exist or has a user base of perhaps 10 maximum. Over the last 10 years of my Java career I have implemented 3 custom/in-house tools to do this, but our focus should have been on solving business problems in our applications NOT writing new deployment tools. There is a big difference between writing a deployment recipe for each environment and writing a reliable deployment tool that does all the things we need it to do AND the configuration files for each environment.

(b) In Ruby (not specific to Rails, but the Ruby language environment) there is a concept of Ruby Gems. Gems are basically JARs on steroids, that can define dependencies and requirements for the gem installer to install prior to that Gem. For example, in Java we have the Xerces and Spring libraries. So if we translated the notion of Gems to the Java world Spring library would have a manifest/descriptor that defines what external libraries that are pre-requisites to installing Spring. We would probably specify Xerces and provide the version number(s). Some versions of Spring may also specify requirements like you must be using JDK 1.4+ or even 1.5+. The Ruby Gem mechanism is extremely similar to the YUM and APT package managers on Linux. This sounds like a stupid thing to worry about, but having worked on large scale enterprise deployments throughout my software consulting practice I have encountered production environments that are unmanageable from a JAR and deployment perspective. Recently I finished a JEE project that had 3 different versions of Xerces in the classpath and the wrong Xerces JAR was first! This took a very long time to determine the cause of the issue because there is no concept similar to a Gem in Java. Having a Java equivalent to a Gem would improve productivity for application deployment without a

Re:Tis the season to disagree... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 11:38 · Score: 0

capistrano sounds like ant ssh task.
Re:Tis the season to disagree... by mbbx6spp · 2006-12-18 03:58 · Score: 1

I can understand why you would think that, my explanation doesn't really do it justice. I it really does do quite a lot more and provides a much richer domain specific language to do this. Since I failed to communicate it last time I'll not try again, but again I can see why you might think that. Maven attempts to do something similar to Capistrano except that I haven't found a JMX-oriented Maven plugin, which is key for J[2]EE apps.
Re:Tis the season to disagree... by mandelbr0t · 2006-12-18 05:32 · Score: 1

In the Ruby/Rails world we have Capistrano, which provides a very nice *start* towards a comprehensive tool to help automate the deployment process (in various environments if necessary) for server application environments
I find XDoclet to be quite sufficient for dealing with deployment automation in multiple J2EE environments. XDoclet, and other AOP tools, allow the developer to deal with multiple deployment environments by embedding JavaDoc-style tags into the code. The XDoclet tool then generates all required XML configuration files. Used in co-ordination with Eclipse, XDoclet configurations can be maintained as part of the project and a packaging configuration can then create EARs for all the required deployments. Writing a shell script to automate the entire process via cron should be a trivial exercise now that the EARs are created. I think that writing your own scripts for deployment makes sense -- they don't take long to write, and they take into account the specific details of your infrastructure. e.g. one server might be deployed to via SCP, while another might use FTP.

mandelbr0t

--
"Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully

Mark well my words and tremble by whitehatlurker · 2006-12-17 11:09 · Score: 1

I have seen the future and bring you word of the doom which growth nigh. In the year 2007 Java will be rocked by disaster on the scale which has not been seen - the devastation will be heard 'round the globe.

Repent now!

Oh, um ... sorry that was for 1883. I have seen the past! Repent earlier!

--
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.

Language vs runtime by Nicolay77 · 2006-12-17 11:10 · Score: 1

Looking only at language features, both Python and Ruby are much better than Java.

However, the Java VM is probably the best crafted runtime interpreter & JIT compiler in existence.

Java has, in some cases, the performance of C++ or at least half the performance of it, while Ruby is (AFAIR) 18 times slower than C. Python is better, but is not in Java territory.

Lisp is better than Java for big complex apps, and can have very good performance (in some cases better than C), but then, we are lacking a free multiplatform open implementation (that doesn't make all your code GPL), and that kills Lisp in the marketplace (and has for a decade).

All that accounts in part for the results you present.

--
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.

Re:Those programs are good, but unusable. by newt0311 · 2006-12-17 11:32 · Score: 1

jedit replace emacs. yeah right... emacs takes about 2 seconds to startup (with a 33K .emacs file) and has TONS more capability than jedit. Say, how does one script jedit... Now how easy is it to script emacs...

Beware, Java's not much better. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 11:47 · Score: 0

Getting away from XML is an admirable goal. It likely will result in massive performance boosts for your applications. However, XML has also become quite entrenched in the Java world.

Tomcat, for instance, heavily relies on XML for its configuration files. When compared to Apache HTTPD config files, the XML ones are lightyears behind. They're far more difficult to read, and they're quite a bit bigger.

Other Java tools, like Ant, rely on XML build scripts. Much like the Tomcat configuration scripts, they're far too verbose and messy. Many of the frameworks require similar configuration files.

Mind you, the overhead of such files is usually minimal. It's not like AJAX, where you have XML being generated on the fly (which is often horribly inefficient). But XML is still often used for many major Java development tools and Web application frameworks, in ways that aren't beneficial.

Re:Those programs are good, but unusable. by metamatic · 2006-12-17 11:55 · Score: 1

...with Java 1.6.0 on Debian Linux, on a 2.6 GHz Opteron system with 4 GB of RAM. jEdit, for instance, takes 34 seconds to load up initially.

Give me a break. Even Eclipse doesn't take that long, on my 2GHz laptop.

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

@ Vista release: or not by aliquis · 2006-12-17 13:06 · Score: 1

Uhm, yeah, I'm sure a Vista Aero 3D compatible laptop with vista ultimate + similair software which cames with iLife will be much cheaper than the Apple branded one...

And I don't think it's over-priced, just compare the performance/money amount ofter a new update of any of their hardware and you'll find the price to be very reasonable. The only thing I have against them is crappy system configuration (all MHz and cores but shitty GFX and in some cases TFTs.)

Ultra lightweight laptops by bismark.a · 2006-12-17 14:09 · Score: 1

Ultra lightweight notebooks based on flash memory with instant on/off will start coming out in large numbers.

When I read this, I immediately thought of cool Linux based laptops from the One Laptop Per Child initiaitive. Seriously, I would consider buying one for my children, even at $200. And I hope that they setup some free content web site for it too, like itunes and ipod ;-) but without any price to pay.

Re:I Just. Don't. Get. It. by Listen+Up · 2006-12-17 15:53 · Score: 1

I have not seen the same computational speed problems with Java 1.5 that you say you are having. As a matter of fact, the opposite. With the latest Java HotSpot compilers, Java code will equal and actually outpace C/C++ when run over extended periods of time as the JVM continuously optimizes the code.

As a note, most of the problems people have when using computational libraries in Java in conjunction with a GUI is that they improperly put the computational logic inside of paintComponent() method (or equivalent paint/update method). This results in the animation being driven forward by its animation loop and by the JVM repainting the window. This is completely incorrect. You should be using a strategy of Update, Render, and Paint routines with a timer executing to continuously calculate whether you should be invoking more Render routines during each animation loop. Frames Per Second and Updates Per Second are two completely different things. By the sounds of it, I suspect your code may need some serious re-architecture work in its threading and rendering implementations. No offense, but unless you are using some terrible calculation libraries, this would be the only other type of bottleneck to your Java performance problems.

If you cannot find a freely available Java computational library that suits your extremely custom needs, you should either purchase the code, or possibly program it yourself in either Java (re-architecture/re-implement your current code), a computational specific language like Fortran 95 (which Sun supports in Java), or even another library invoked through JNI.

Re:I Just. Don't. Get. It. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-17 16:02 · Score: 0

When do you begin testing?

Re:I Just. Don't. Get. It. by Listen+Up · 2006-12-17 16:12 · Score: 1

PS - I would also invest serious time in using a Java Profiler to see where you might be having performance problems. Both Eclipse and NetBeans offer excellent profiler functionality and there are multiple excellent profilers available from third parties.

Re:'Javas slow decline in favor of...' oh please by Maxo-Texas · 2006-12-17 17:34 · Score: 1

While I agree with you, I just wanted to say that your data doesn't really support your argument.

A slow decline implies time.

For example:
If java had 8240 jobs last month and 8000 jobs this month while ruby had 80 jobs last month and 160 jobs this month, then java would be in a slow decline (roughly -3%) while ruby would be in a steep increase (100%). And of course, you would need to compare year to year. Installed projects, etc.

In my opinion, java is increasing- especially for enterprise level applications. It just runs so well on so many different platforms that many of our software vendors prefer it for products they sell to us. And we like it for our customizations.

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She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.

Re:Get your system checked by symbolic · 2006-12-17 19:13 · Score: 1

I'm running something far less substantial than you describe (Windows OS), and JEdit will load, with several files open, in a tad less than 15 seconds.

... except where Java's on the rise. by SgtChaireBourne · 2006-12-17 21:12 · Score: 1

Apparently Cornell doesn't realize C#/.Net is just Microsoft's implementation of a p-machine and framework, the same as Java.

What makes you think that realising that stands in the way of it becoming more popular?

How about the fact that the few developers that poked at it for a while are now abandoning .Net in droves ? Cornell's opinions are just that, opinions. And except in certain alternate universes data and facts tend to outweigh opinions.

From the link above:

Java now holds the top spot, with 45% of the polled developers saying they used Java during some part of the last six months. C/C++, meanwhile, was used by 40% of the coders, ...

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Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.

Re:... except where Java's on the rise. by Allador · 2006-12-18 11:07 · Score: 1

You didnt read the article closely enough. It doesnt say what you're purporting it does.

From the article:
http://www.informationweek.com/software/showArticl e.jhtml?articleID=196600515

"Developers have abandoned Microsoft's Visual Basic in droves during the last six months, ..."

That's Visual Basic, not VB.NET, and definitely not C# or .NET.

They also did mention that VB.NET use was down:

"... VB.Net use is down 26%, the survey shows."

and they mention no loss of C# developers.

But there is no mention of developers abandoning .NET in droves, only VB6, which isnt surprising, considering its been EOL'd for quite a while now.
Re:... except where Java's on the rise. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-12-18 12:56 · Score: 0

VB.Net is being abandoned.

Re:Heh... Java's got it's place, but... by mishagam · 2006-12-17 23:30 · Score: 1

So what should you use to control nuclear reactor? C++? In my very limited experience with control code Java probably would be improvement.

Yeah...I'm a small-timer... by FatSean · 2006-12-18 02:50 · Score: 1

...my apps and systems are only used by 250,000 employees over the course of a 24-hour period. But you know, it still impresses me and that's all that matters!

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Blar.

not again by crodrigu1 · 2006-12-18 02:58 · Score: 0

I really getting tired and bored of idiots: give the money too and I will say MICROSOFT is the best, or Ruby (just soup up Perl) is best, or vista is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sorry, but each of those technologies has its own strength and problems. Ajax is not secure and even worst: is JAVASCRIPT '( Java tries to be everywhere, instead of be where it is the most strong. Microsoft still does nothing and collects money for doing so Well just give me the money and I will say anything for you.

Re:Those programs are good, but unusable. by PeterBrett · 2006-12-18 04:12 · Score: 1

emacs takes about 2 seconds to startup (with a 33K .emacs file)

Can you post your .emacs somewhere? I'd love to see what you've put in there to make it that large!

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Pirate Party UK

Re:'ivory tower academics...' oh please by PeterBrett · 2006-12-18 04:33 · Score: 1

The ONLY people who think Java is in decline in favor of Ruby or Python are the ivory tower academics who aren't actually developing large scale enterprise applications.

Hmm... heard of a game called 'EVE Online'? Their server -- which serves provides an entire 3D universe to over 33000 users simultaneously (without instancing as in WoW or Guild Wars) -- has the game logic implemented almost entirely in Stackless Python, with shared state across tens of thousands of CPUs. Or what about that small and insignificant search engine, Google? They seem to rely quite heavily on Python too.

Oh, I'm sorry. Perhaps those aren't "large scale" enough for you. What sort of "large scale enterprise applications" did you have in mind?

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Pirate Party UK

Re:Those programs are good, but unusable. by newt0311 · 2006-12-18 04:58 · Score: 1

sure. want me to email it?

Support for static analysis by try_anything · 2006-12-18 05:19 · Score: 1

I just thought of something else: The Linux kernel development team now uses static analysis tools to uncover bugs. AFAIK, this is a recent development for widely-used operating systems, and one that threatens the dominance of C in kernel programming. C is inherently difficult to analyze, yet static analysis uncovers so many bugs that it simply can't be neglected. Anyone planning on writing an operating system from scratch would surely note this trend and choose to write in a language (or dialect) for which excellent static analysis support can be provided.

Re:Those programs are good, but unusable. by PeterBrett · 2006-12-18 20:50 · Score: 1

Sounds like a good idea :)

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Pirate Party UK

284 comments