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The whiny, angst-filled teen as central character in a video game actually makes sense as viewed through the paradigm of the Hero's Journey Joseph Campbell in his most famouse work The Hero with a Thousand Faces. After having to read the book and analyze it in high school english way back when, and then use it as the basis for literary analysis on a large number of other books, the basic point he is trying to get across is that every hero story is the same story: the story of coming of age, essentially puberty or the transformation from child to adult.

If you accept that a hero story is puberty, that essentially means that every hero is a teenager. The angst that these teenage heroes show is not a result of just being melodramatic, but the result of deep seated fears about the uncertainty that the future presents, primarilly in respect to their relationships with the opposite sex. In video games, as well as movies, comic books, music, novels and pretty much any other story telling medium, this angst is just amplified and used for a dramatic effect against an even more dramatic and fantastic (as in feeling of fantasy and adventure, not as a synonym of "really really good") background.

That, and the fact that RPG and other character driven video games are primarilly marketed to teenage males with a penchance for drama.

Lucas however, can do myth very, very well.

Lucas however, can do myth very, very well. And once Lucas gets around to telling the Myth Of Anakin's Fall, the real story that Episode I and II have been leading to,

Reminds me of the documentary Bill Moyers produced a few years ago about Joseph Campbell. The title of the doc was called "Joseph Campbell and The Power of Myth." Joey wrote a ton of material about mythology and how it shaped mens minds over the course of history. Fascinating guy, But the third or fourth video in this documentary, Bill Moyers travels the the George Lucas darth-vader ranch in California or where it was. Apparently Lucas was a student of Campbell, or least an avid fan of his writing. Lucas spent a good while talking about the inspiration Campbell provided him.

Here's a link to mininova, some people seeding The Power of Myth in audiobook format... not sure if that includes the George Lucas interview though.

http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=power+of+my th

My question for you is, why do we still have religious structures if science explains things better?

I'm not saying science is wrong and religion is right; I'm saying that human beings have a desire to participate in a transcendental experience. Whether that is possible or not I can not say, but don't be so quick to relegate religion to the trash heap. It serves a purpose in our society and very important one at that ... go talk to some anthropologists about the role that religion and myth plays in society; it quickly becomes clear that it is just as important as evolution although not in the "worshipping god" sense. Religions and myths create our societies and cultures; if you're more interested in the subject matter or don't believe me check out this website. And no Joseph Campbell isn't just some crack-pot; his work in the field of mythology throughout the 20th century was groundbreaking and his influence on people throughout the world is undeniable [references seem to pop-up with regard to him in the most unexpected places, at least that's what I've noticed].

This plot been done before, in fact apparently 1000 times before: Hero With A Thousand Faces

And I think someone has already done a science fiction version of it.

Sidenote (spoiler): Palpatine is Anakin's father. See first link above.

lucas created a lot, what you define as noncreative is exactly what creativity is: mixing and matching previous cultural artifacts into new and novel combinations for great entertainment effect

in other words, your forensic analysis of lucas's influences are dead on, but that simply illusrates how creative he is: to mix and match such disparate influences into something wholly fresh and enthralling

you seem to think creativity happens in a vacuum

ALL stories, written by ANYONE can be found to have similarities to previous stories, as all stories are simply variations on the hero myth and have the same story arc of crisis leading to resolution

i mean, according to your definition, shakespeare or homer deserve credit for all books and movies made in western culture for the past couple of hundred years... um, no

study joseph campbell and his groundbreaking work with myths, especially the hero with a thousand faces to see what i mean

lucas is incredibly creative: watch his early film thx-1138 and do a forensic analysis of the science fiction and cultural critique roots of that movie... it doesn't take away from lucas's creativity to find his sources of inspiration

no, the problem with lucas is that he hit his audience dead on in the first few films: older children and young teenagers, in the spirit of tintin: genuinely evil forces and genuine mortal risk at work against a young hero with colorful friends and enemies in a colorful universe

however, for whatever bizarre reason, with jar jar and surfing lava, lucas somehow thinks that YOUNGER children should be courted instead of staying with his sweet spot of older children/ young teenagers... i mean c'mon jar jar is nothing but a teletubbie character: lucas has gotten the age wrong when he seeks to be kid-frinedly- he's aiming at too low of an age, and losing the sweet spot that his star wars universe appeals to

on a side note, this whole delving into the forensic analysis of predecessors to creative works gets at the problem with corporations claiming intellectual property creep further and further into the public domain: micky mouse not lapsing into it, or the whole debale with the grey album: at some point, by claiming excessive ownership on what is essentially our shared human culture, corporations are stifling innovation, not helping it, by keeping works locked up in a vault where no one can freely dip into and remix from them...

in such a too near future world where corporations and their hordes of lawyers exert too much of an influence on cultural ownership, a lawyer can come along just as you did in your parent post, and claim ownership of star wars based on previous works, and stifle star wars before it ever got out of the script pile

on other words, in the future of increasing dubious and aggressive cultural ownership practices by large corporations, we would never have seen star wars... that's the kind of stifling of innovation we are dealing with in the whole ip battle ;-(

So, as a scientific discovery, this will accomplish...what exactly? The authenticity of the Bible? Or merely that most mythologies have some basis in history.

George Lucas is a bright guy. He worled with noted mythologist Joseph Campbell in designing the story line for the star wars saga, such that it is most compelling to the largest possible audience. The late Joseph Campbell theorised that there are identifiable story elements and common threads in all mythology that makes it so universally compelling and has allowed some stories to live on literally for thousands of years.

George Lucas sought to harness these concepts and taylor a mythology for the modern era, and with the help of Joseph Campbell, he succeeded. I recall hearing comments from many of my colligues that Harry Potter is a lot like Star Wars (back when the first one came out) and my imediate reaction was to examine the common threads where I found an almost identical human struggle. A lost chile finds his way in the world with the guidance of an elder who then (eventually) leaves the student to his own devices, to overcome a great evil, not only to save the world but to save some one or something far more personal to him. This is only a cursory summary of the similarities which were outlined in the article but can be examined more closely after a careful reading of some of Campbell's works on mythology. I recommend the Masks of God or the Mythic Dimention.

IN the case of the Matrix, I believe the brothers who's name I won't attemt to spell, simply stumbled upon this formula. Certainly there are similarities and this is what makes it such a compelling story, but as far as I know, they didn't approach the writing of the story as methodically, or in such a calculating way as did George Lucas or the author of the Harry Potter books.

--CTH

Wasn't it John W. Campbell that made all of the early advances with Campbellian Science Fiction? Granted, I'm not done reading Invaders from the Infinite yet, but he was the lead editor for Analog and it's predecessor...

Not that Campbell. This Campbell with The Joseph Campbell Foundation Web site. He is (was) the leading name in comparative mythology.

The Gardener

Wasn't it John W. Campbell that made all of the early advances with Campbellian Science Fiction? Granted, I'm not done reading Invaders from the Infinite yet, but he was the lead editor for Analog and it's predecessor...

Not that Campbell. This Campbell with The Joseph Campbell Foundation Web site. He is (was) the leading name in comparative mythology.

The Gardener

Lucas was a devotee of Joseph Campbell, the late comparative mythologist, and he used Campbell's work as a paint-by-number set for generating the plot of the first movie, by his own admission even if not in so many words. (By "first movie" I mean the first one that was actually made, now called Episode 4 but originally called just "Star Wars".) It's filled with motifs we expect to see in great stories, so our minds naturally associate it with being a great story. Aided by the admittedly competent cinematography, we are presented with the semblence or illusion of a good movie. This blinds us to the plot holes, the shallow characterization, the cliched dialog, and the shoddy acting that it typical of the series.

Plot Holes: Try, for example, to reconcile the timeline of ANH with what is now known to be required for even the beginning of Jedi training. Luke can't have had time to learn much on Tattooine, and he only has the time during the trip to Aldaraan for serious instruction. How long does this take? There's nothing in the movie to suggest that more than a day or two passes in transit, possibly less. And Luke's starting out as a teenager, when even Anakin at 8 (or is it 10? I forget) is thought by Yoda to be too old to begin.

Shallow Characterization: All the characters are very close to their archetypes. There are many assumptions we therefore automatically make about them, and Lucas doesn't have to do very much work at all to make them "pass" for deep ones. And he doesn't.

Cliched Dialog:"I can't believe he's gone." (Luke about Obi-Wan. He'd known him, what, a week or less?) "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (Han about the Jedi. Substitute the appropriate weaponry and it could have come from a spaghetti western.) "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." (Leia to Tarkin. How many times has the plucky revolutionary said something similar to the dictator in numerous other settings?) Et cetera.

Shoddy acting: Alec Guinness' opinions on this are well known, but even so he and the other few competent actors deliver even the most hideously bad lines in a credible manner. Unfortunately, they don't have enough screen time to make much of a difference. Seen Mark Hamill in anything lately? There's a reason for that. He was bad enough in ANH, but he really showed he didn't have it in RoJ. When he tries to sound mystical he sounds stoned. For serenity we get vacancy. Instead of firm resolve we get a sort of vague assurance. Man he was bad. Carrie Fisher wasn't much better in the first movie, but at least she improved in the craft after a few years. Harrison Ford might have been good enough, but he failed to rise to the level of genius it would have taken to break Han out of the "rogue with a good heart underneath it all" mold.

If after thinking about it all in these terms I had any doubt about the quality of the story, I simply have to think about TPM. If Lucas ever had it, he's lost it. There just isn't any enthusiasm left any more. He should have been thinking of the people who'd been waiting almost 20 years for that film, not the 10 year olds the promotional tie-ins were designed for.

Or maybe he was, and this was the best he could do. Oh well. It could have been a lot better.

hey, lay the hell off.

haven't you read your Joseph Campbell?

There are only so many plots and story elements to work with, if you intend to make a satisfying piece of work. So why not focus on those elements that hit closest to home? like getting the girl, defeating the villian, etc. these elements are metaphors for challenges you'll be facing all the rest of your days.

To prove my point, I guaruntee that a wizened old man will send the main character off on his journey in the D&D movie. Because HE, the old man, is an element common to almost every epic, myth or parable that can be considered an 'adventure', throughout all of human history, from every culture and continent.

ok, so I'm out ill today. I have a really good point about this, and if it coming off incoherently, I apologize. Maybe someone else could back me up in a more eloquent fashion? I'll shut up now...

:)Fudboy

Let me recommend one of my favorite books, The Writer's Journey, a fantastic guide to understanding movies through an interpretation of The Hero With A Thousand Faces. I also found it far more readable than Campbell's book, which is dense with great mythological examples. If you don't read The Hero With A Thousand Faces, at least read The Writer's Journey. It's a terrific real-world introduction to the relevance of Joseph Campbell and the power of mythology.