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Although they are highly capable leaders, Masterminds are not at all eager to take command, preferring to stay in the background until others demonstrate their inability to lead. Once they take charge, however, they are thoroughgoing pragmatists. Masterminds are certain that efficiency is indispensable in a well-run organization, and if they encounter inefficiency -- any waste of human and material resources -- they are quick to realign operations and reassign personnel. Masterminds do not feel bound by established rules and procedures, and traditional authority does not impress them, nor do slogans or catchwords. Only ideas that make sense to them are adopted; those that don't, aren't, no matter who thought of them. Remember, their aim is always maximum efficiency.

By definition, INTJs do not want power. They want results and efficiency. If they take power, they try to get out from under it as soon as they can. But do you really want to replace the psychopaths with masterminds? The only group whose personality type is usually preceded by the adjective "evil?" Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

I think it's important for ADHD kids to learn to deal with their differences (note: imho ADHD is not a disorder, or a problem, or a deficiency, we're just a particular set of personality traits that do not do well in modern social norms that require most people to sit still and perform repetitive tasks all day every day) without medication.

There is at least one personality researcher that believes the same thing. I believe I heard David Keirsey refer to these types of medications as behavioral modification through narcotherapy, and claimed that there is a strong correlation between personality types and the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD.

He has an interesting article on his site called Drugged Obedience: http://www.keirsey.com/drugged_ob.aspx

PPS. Did anyone else think the photo of the author of the linked article looked 'shopped?

No. Stephen Hawking's love child, perhaps, but not 'shopped.

Who has the MBTI type which more closely represents the needs and wants of this position?

If you've studied programming and have a deep interest in economics/business then you might be better for this position. A lot of programmers go this way. They get into programming initially, until they learn they want more. You seem reasonably entrepreneurial, so you might fit this build. Generally these people have an MBTI type of ENTJ. Where is real programmers and science types are usually INTJ. But this doesn't mean you can't be out of the norm and not work well.

Do the Jung Typology Test and find out more about yourself at Portrait of an ENTJ and here The Portrait of the FieldMarshal Rational

Overall for a business you need to know more about business/economics (and maybe some politics for fun?), not finance, not technology. Whom ever has the best skill set and want for this, should have the position.

If you have left it to asking for people on /. for whether or not, perhaps you don't want it that much, or don't have the forcefulness for that kind of position.

Although remember what happened with Paul Allen and always stay firm with what's in your best needs! After all that's what business is, interacting entities all striving for what's best for them, and coming to a medium.

What is it that causes legal-types to completely lose their marbles whenever anything high-tech happens?

They don't know how to parlay the common sense they use in the real world to a virtual realm with which they are unfamiliar.

Plus, the professions they are in are usually dominated by "guardian" personality types. Such people tend to be comfortable with rigid interpretations of language and law, so if something falls under the rubric of "hacking" they will pigeonhole it as one specific type of behavior. Their reaction to it is determined not by the details of the behavior itself, which they may or may not understand, but the pigeonhole they have classified it into. Hacking is hacking. Hence the old saying that "the law is an ass."

When Mitnick was arrested the cops wouldn't let him have a phone. They thought he could launch nuclear missles by whistling into a phone at specific frequencies.

I'm an INTJ and I am trying to work, so why don't you just leave me alone!

The Portrait of the Mastermind (INTJ)

This bothers me so much.

1) The "gifted" youth just means that his prime intelligence is in Strategics (see Keirsey.com). There are plenty of "gifted" youths in the other three intelligences that simply aren't recognized for their brilliance.

2) His MBTI is probably INTP, which is shared by about one percent of the population. As an introverted thinker, his f side is the least likely to be developed. Trying to develop it will hurt more than it helps.

3) If he doesn't care to have social skills, he probably doesn't need them at this point, so why force him?

Anyway, to learn social skills he'll need to see it as a system. There are plenty of books on the subject. But don't push it. It is unlikely that he'll even care until somewhere into his late twenties when he begins to develop his S side.

ADD is a mythical disease. It's nothing more than an excuse for poor teacher to drug their students into submission.

As someone misdiagnosed with this terrible joke, i am fully aware of how poor most teachers are.

ADD is a mythical disease. It's nothing more than an excuse for poor teacher to drug their students into submission.

As someone misdiagnosed with this terrible joke, i am fully aware of how poor most teachers are.

Most of the time, yes. Let me tell you why.

Like you (i presume), I'm a jamband fan and I enjoy the occasional show and collect as many live recordings as I can. I went to see my farvorite artist (keller williams) the other night and while the music was divine as usual, I couldn't hear/see it very well because of the mass of humanity that engulfed me. It seemed like half of them came to the show just to yell at each other over the music. Now If you like to socialize that's great, but I came there to listen to the music. I realized then that I enjoy listening to recordings at home many times more than being part of a noisy crowd.

But that's just my preference. You aren't me, and I'm not you. To assume that I should enjoy what you enjoy is selfish and wrong-headed. Keirsey says this well. In our american culture, you are supposed to be outgoing and constantly seek the company of others, If you are reserved and solitutude seeking then there must be something wrong with you.

Stop Ritalin

Agreed, Ritalin has never been properly tested for use with children. I suggest reading The evil practice of Narcotherapy for attention Deficit and Drugged Obedience in the School by Dr. David Keirsey one of the world's leading clinical psychologists.

Stop Ritalin

Agreed, Ritalin has never been properly tested for use with children. I suggest reading The evil practice of Narcotherapy for attention Deficit and Drugged Obedience in the School by Dr. David Keirsey one of the world's leading clinical psychologists.

Stop Ritalin

Agreed, Ritalin has never been properly tested for use with children. I suggest reading The evil practice of Narcotherapy for attention Deficit and Drugged Obedience in the School by Dr. David Keirsey one of the world's leading clinical psychologists.

I would recommend Abuse it - Lose it. There are some additional articles Dr. David Keirsey has written about this problem as well.

IMarv

I would recommend Abuse it - Lose it. There are some additional articles Dr. David Keirsey has written about this problem as well.

IMarv

Sorry I can't spoonfeed you evidence to satisfy your skepticism. Try researching the footnotes of the Please Understand Me books, or check out a psychology of personality journal.

However, if you don't view psychology as a "scientific" discipline, which I suspect is the case, it won't help.

All this info is in "Please Understand Me."

Nothing new here. Move along.

http://keirsey.com/Please.html [SEE, NO GOATSE!]

There used to be a much better Perl-based test out there based on the book, Please Understand Me by David Kiersey and Marilyn Bates, but I found this test out there. (You can go to Kiersey's self-promotional site too, but it looks like they use some form of communist registration/info-gathering technique before they let you take the test.)

Introversion/Extraversion is simply one of many factors - in this organizational scheme, Jungian personality types adapted by Isabel Briggs Myers.

I predict in your next post you'll use some reference to Jews and Nazi Germany... it's consistent with this tired, "You don't understand I'm 'special' therefore you are evil and want to oppress me you facist bigot!" line.

I've encountered plenty of ADD and ADHD people. I likely would be diagnosed with the condition myself if I went to one of the many drug dealers with memberships to CibaGeneva Pharmaceuticals' summer camp golf club.

Yes you are special. But I believe that Ritalin is no different than alcohol, pot, or other drugs that are essentially used (and quite often abused) to temporarily alter peoples' personalities, in lieu of the more difficult task of un-doing the chemical programming of the brain that was done over decades of being exposed to hyperactive media and other sensory input.

In some cases, as is with depression, drugs can help get people out of the hole they've fallen into, but the industry has gone crazy mis-diagnosing people and creating entire classes of sedation subscriptions through a liberal diagnosis of this "condition."

We obviously disagree. I am not prejudiced against people on Ritalin. I just think it's not a solution. It is a subscription service that sedates people and doesn't really fix the problem. Over time, your tolerance for Ritalin will wane and you'll need heavier drugs to accomplish the same level of sedation. In the long run, you'll be more messed up and dependant upon pharmaceuticals instead of altering your lifestyle to naturally correct the cerebral chemical imbalance. But it obviously is easier and more convenient to pop a pill and call anyone who argues that your choice is the most appropriate, a bigot. It's always easy to generalize and rationalize about a person than consider what they say might have some truth. Take the easy way out. That's the new way. Go reactive, not pro-active. Taking Ritalin itself is likely the ultimate symptom of ADD!

I exhibits most of the diagnostic indicators of ADHD and/or Autism, but I've never been 'diagnosed' and firmly reject the premise these are a disability or disease. I am poor at sport and empathic stuff, I'm constantly told I lack focus and concentration yet I know I am quite capable of focusing and concentration on something I find interesting and challenging for much longer than 'normal' people.

The real question should what is 'normal' and why should everybody be 'normal'. When any ability, attribute or skill of people is measured some people must end up on the extremes of the curve, this is entirely normal and is called a normal distribution.

Some people are good at sport, some people are poor at sport.
Some people are high EQ, some people are low EQ.
Some people are high IQ, some people are low IQ.

My special abilities allow me to conceive unusually and innovative solutions to problems, I can think around a problem in a way that 'normal' people are unable to even contemplate because they think in what I see as simplistic linear manner. I think this makes me and other similar people gifted not disabled.

I think you should read the THE EVIL PRACTICE OF NARCOTHERAPY FOR ATTENTION DEFICIT by Dr. David Keirsey. It may change the way you think about yourself.

You should also know that many of the greatest minds in history have exhibited the same symptoms as what is now called ADHD and/or Autism, Albert Einstein, Issac Newton, Isambard Brunel, Alexander Graham Bell; to name four.

There are many more here.

Finally two rhetorical questions.

Why are so many supposed 'normal' people prepared to label these abilities a disease or disability that must have a cause ? Many of these same people ascribe ADHD and/or Autism to MMR (or mercury in vaccines) because if it is a disease or disability it must have a cause. These 'normal' people are *supposed* to be empathic, yet give little consideration to our feelings in fact they do this despite our feels or thought on this subject. I think they should focus more effort into understanding that labelling.

David Keirsey, the well known psychologist, believes that ADHD is just an excuse to sell drugs and to dumb-down kids who are bored with school.

My brother and I both have ADHD-like symptoms from time to time. No drugs here, and somehow we're both capable of surviving. Television has done a lot to reduce the attention span of just about everyone these days. What can you do?

Tim

David Keirsey, the well known psychologist, believes that ADHD is just an excuse to sell drugs and to dumb-down kids who are bored with school.

My brother and I both have ADHD-like symptoms from time to time. No drugs here, and somehow we're both capable of surviving. Television has done a lot to reduce the attention span of just about everyone these days. What can you do?

Tim

David Keirsey, the well known psychologist, believes that ADHD is just an excuse to sell drugs and to dumb-down kids who are bored with school.

My brother and I both have ADHD-like symptoms from time to time. No drugs here, and somehow we're both capable of surviving. Television has done a lot to reduce the attention span of just about everyone these days. What can you do?

Tim

Does your lawyer neighbor actually try jury cases and use lack of emotion to strike jurors? If so I could probably guess several elements of his temperament, and that leaves him in a position to be manipulated.

Neither my degree nor my programming profession has kept me off juries. Don't get a complex, the sixth time may put you in a room with a dozen folks from outside your social circle and a patriotic mission.

That man had a righteous do only rivalled by that of Einstein.

I've got the Feynman "Think Different" poster in my office. Every day is a tribute to his fab locks.

The science part was cool, too.

In case anyone is wondering (and I'm sure they're not), I'm INTP with INTJ tendencies (one test at keirsey.com I'm INTP all the way, the other I'm just barely INTJ.

For a basic introduction, go to http://www.keirsey.com. He based his work on the MBTI. The MBTI is Meyers-Briggs Type Inventory. Their book, printed many years after the MBTI came out is Girsts Differing.

The rest of the letters are types. Each of the sixteen types has four letters. Keirsey groups them into four groups, with the SP being the energetic Artisan, and the NT being the scholarly Rational. The two introverted (hence "I") of the NTs are INTP and INTJ. INTP is the space cadet, or the absent minded professor. Albert Einstein was a classic INTP. INTJs, Keirsey's "Mastermind", are the rarest type (for women or overall, for men the rarest is INFP). Neils Bohr was an INTJ.

The question is if there is such a thing as ADHD.

Keirsey wrote a pamphlet denying it. As a school psycologist, he found most kids diagnosed with "disorders" to be SPs. Being schools are not made for SPs, such kids have a *very* hard time listening without hands on experience.

The IQ test, being written (probably by NTs) for NTs, only measure strategic intelligence. With a higher IQ, she's probably an NT (though ISTP just as well, being close to the INTP). As an INTJ myself who was drugged with a double dosage of Ritalin twice daily, I can say that I had no such "disorder". I was merely energentic and bored to tears. The teacher taught at a *much* slower than I needed. As such, I got straight As (except history in eighth grade), all the awards, but Ds or Fs in "effort". Then they drugged me and "they" were happy. Talk about self-centeredness.

If only they'd set up schools by knowledge and understanding rather than age. It's so silly and damaging to potential.

Anyway, I'd suggest that you first find out her interests. A good way to do that is with the MBTI (Book: Gifts Differing). Though Kerisey (Book: Please Understand Me II) has much more observation-wise in his book. With a knowledge of (possible) interests, it can be much easier to deal with such children in an effective manner.

I think this packer/mapper distinction has similarity with the N/S distinction (iNtuitive/Sensing) made on the Myers-Briggs test.

Ulrik

Driving or walking, I try to watch all important vehicles when trying to move about. If I see a nice big car, I assume it will fail to yeild until I have some sense of certainty it will yeild. I may or may not be paranoid, and they may not be out to get me; but it doesn't mean they can't screw up. I guess not everybody considers cars as weapons.

I once did an emergency stop at a regular light when it went red (I had no idea how long the yellow was going to be.) And I stopped. Then I looked in my rear view mirror to see a semi-truck smoking up its breaks and going to the emergency lane to my left. I had stopped, but decided to go anyway before traffic resumed. I DID NOT NEED THAT MUCH GASOLINE IN MY TRUNK! I have since added making sure the person BEHIND me can safely stop as part of deciding to run a yellow or stop for a yellow.

I wish all lights had a 6 second yellow, then I could know how much time I have to both decide and stop.

I'll add it to the list of things to do when I take over the world.

Known to date:
A road will have one name, and one name only.
No other roads within 20 miles shall have the same name.
All roads will be continuous with one name. If there's a gap, it gets a new name. (Except when there are irrivokable funded schedules to connect them within 2 years. And if those plans fail, one of the roads will be significantly renamed.)
East, West, North, South, and other ordinal names will not be valid road names. These are for directional headings ON roads.

Highways will have multiple speed limits, the traditional slow lane will remain so, and each lane farther from it will be 10MH faster than its neighbor. In the US that would mean an 8 lane highway with a speed limit of 55 would be, 55, 65, 75, 85, 85, 75, 65, 55. (4 each way) This would allow people to find the flow they like and stick with it and stay out of the way of those who feel otherwise.

Lanes will have symbols identifying the lanes. Exit signs that traditionally point with arrows at lanes will have those arrows replaced with the symbols. The same symbol will be used with the same lane continuously. (Arrows frequently point at the stripes or are too hard to line up due to the curve of the road.)

Israel and Palestine will be quarenteened and people evacuated from the area. Abuse it, loose it. Archeological permits will be required to enter.

All laws will expire after 10 years and require a new vote to reinstate.

Hmm, more rant then expected.
Andy

ROTFL - yea, the welcome image is a...er... trip. Wow. Took another look... that image better not pop up at inopportune times!

Another poster mentioned the proof of the guarantee. To be fair, the only proof I've seen is people truly internalizing it and the personal success they've seen. That's about as unscientific of a causal relationship as they come.

Still, for Keirsey 'rational' temperament (which the technical world probably sees a greater representation of), objectivism is about the most effective operating system to run.

I'm still trying to see the theory applied to non-intellectuals to determine the extent of its application.

Regardless of theory, however, the greatest lesson many can come away from in this downturn is that the only job insurance is your own competence. Now if we could just ensure this rule got applied to the PHBs...

*scoove*

There are lots of posts talking about how MBTI, the various descriptions and Jungian psychology in general are a lot like astrology, pigeonholing, etc. Psychology is not an objective science, and you have to take context into account whenever you're using it.

If you take it at face value then it mostly is, and a lot of people take take it at face value - employers included - which is why a lot of people will be disillusioned about it. There are some definitely incorrect perceptions though, so I'll try to outline some that I've noticed.

• The linked site has the spelling wrong. It's actually spelt "myers-briggs", not "meyers-briggs". Actually I think they know because I saw this site about a year ago and they commented on it that they spelt it that way because myers-briggs.com was already taken.

• The official myers-briggs test can ONLY be administered by a trained psychologist, for good reason. The main reason for this is already hilighted in several of the gripey comments posted in reply to this story. Either people misunderstand the results, people misunderstand the questions, people misunderstand the interpretation, or (most annoyingly) other people misunderstand all of the above. Even when it is administered properly you can bet people will start reading rubbish from the results at the first opportunity to get things wrong.

• Most people probably got their first and (likely) only impression of MBTI from the Keirsey sorter (note the word "sorter"), or something like it. Keirsey is not a test and it's not supposed to be. It's a multi choice sorter intended to give people a pointer towards their likely personality type. It's not always correct though. This sorter is really the product of a guy who made it so he could sell more copies of his book. It's free and openly available for people to misunderstand, which is why it's so popular.

• Type descriptions are absolutes. People have been complaining that they fit at least partly under every description, and this is no surprise. Personally though, I'm definitely much more similar to an INTP than an ESFJ... for whatever it's worth. It doesn't mean I can't or won't act like an ESFJ description under some circumstances. It also doesn't mean I can't be really good at a "typical ESFJ job", or the reverse... even though I probably wouldn't enjoy it as much as someone who relates closer.

• MBTI is intended to describe how people act.. not why they act that way, or what's going on inside their head.

• (easily most important): One of the most useful things about Jungian psychology is not to slot people into boxes, but to demonstrate that there are different types of people.

  Before Myers and Briggs brought Jungian psychology out of the closet, the central view in psychology was that anyone could be wired into electrodes and people could be conditioned to any form wanted by electrocuting them. (or something metaphorically equivalent.)

  Either can be argued depending on the context and circumstances. If nothing else, Jungian psychology has introduced an alternative viewpoint to be argued that people's personalities are hard-coded, and there are limits to how much you can be changed. (Consider this the next time you're accepted for the way you are outside of social norms instead of being thrown in a mental institution to be "cured".)

Didn't anyone ever tell you that Hate is a strong word... Do you spend a lot of valuable time rushing to judgement and criticizing people?

On the other hand, start-ups generally come into existence as blank slates. There's a certain freedom in not having a pre-existing infrastructure in place, and as a result, you'll find more start-ups using Linux either as its sole OS or as in a mix with other OSs. Money is extremely precious in a start-up, so if software is either very cheap or free, it tends to be used. There's also a "break from the status quo and break new ground" mentality that seems to be common to start-ups, which also makes Linux particularly attractive to them.

Schmooze.
Not as easy as it sounds, especially since the majority of geeks tend to rate as INTP on the Myers-Briggs personality test. However, those who present themselves well tend to be rewarded (and that will only be an addition to the fact that you're a pretty skilled person too, right?)

A great place to meet potential employers is at computer-related conferences, especially those that tend to attract either developers or managers who have the authority to hire or recommend you. While these conferences are expensive if you attend the sessions, the passes for the showroom florr tend to be pretty cheap, and the showroom floor is the place where you meet people. You may find potential employers behind the booths, but the best source of jobs are the people wandering the floors, looking for solutions for their firms. Keep your eyes open for people's companies (it's typically on their badges) and your ears open. Have some material -- business cards, resumes, the URL to your resume site or a CD of your past work, a 50-word-or-less spiel why you would be a great employee at a Linux firm -- at the ready.

There's more to development than coding.
(I can already hear them saying "Wha'chu talkin' 'bout, Kode Fu?")
Not everyone can be a coder, because not everyone has skill and not everyone has the will (cue rap music).

I myself am the odd man out in a family of doctors. I've seen first-hand that it takes more than just doctors to make a hospital run; it takes more than just programmers to make a software firm run, too. Different software firms will have different needs, but based on experience, here are a few positions that a Linux-based software company may need:

• CEO/President/Supreme Boss: Someone has to be the big-picture leader. While this person should be technologically savvy, s/he should also have business sense and expertise. While this conjures images of Dilbert's pointy-haired boss, you would be amazed at what a good CEO can do. You'd also be surprised at the number of tech companies looking for someone to handle the non-tech big picture issues.
• CFO/bread-head/accountant: Someone's got to watch the money. The world of money is just as strange to outsiders as the geek world is.
• Marketing: No matter what you think of marketers, you need 'em. Your better software mousetrap is just another idle collection of bits if it's simply languishing on your hard-drive. They're useful not only in the end, when you have a product to market, but if you're looking for investors or start-up cash, they can help sell market your vision.
• User interface specialist: Rare, but given that there are CHI (Computer-Human Interface) SIGs all around, there must be some of these people. You will be doing your users a disservice if you don't get some usability expertise on-board.
• Graphic designer: If your software has graphic elements, get a graphic designer. You will get better-looking results, and your users will thank you. Be sure, however, not to confuse UI specialist with graphic designers -- they are not the same thing. Graphic design does not have to function, but UIs do.
• Production manager: This person's job is to ensure the smooth flow of production, which means making sure that all obstacles are removed from the development team's path. If the team needs a new machine or peripheral, a set of books or some software, this person makes sure that this is provided (as long as the request can be reasonably met). This person, along with the lead developer, keeps an eye on the schedule, making adjustments as necessary, and makes sure that certain necessary tasks get completed, even if they are tedious (for example, daily backup comes to mind).
• Systems admin: There is a little coding involved in maintaining a system, but not on the scope of a your typical software project. Murphy's Law dictates that companies without a dedicated sysadmin will suffer a massive systems failure very, very soon.
• Writer: Many projects need the services of a writer. There's a lot of writing involved with a major software project -- the requirements doc, design docs, risks docs, developer docs and user docs, for starters. Perhaps the company needs someone to write copy for its marketing materials or web site. You might even want a writer for your business plan or whatever material you have to present to investors.
• Testing: Someone's gotta do it... I'm not just talking about beta testing, but also testing pieces of the software thhrough the development phase. To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright, it's easier to use an eraser on the blueprint than a sledgehammer at the construction site.

Never underestimate the power of a good dye job and rock and roll accordion playing.
Hey, it got me a few offers at LinuxWorld Expo NYC and my job at a Linux company...

In particular, it's interesting that you mention INTJ -- after missing the point of such typecasting entirely. If you would look at the Keirsey Temperament and Character Web Site and read through a little more carefully, you'll see that temperament theory is about deep-set priorities in life, not manifestations of delusion as you seem to be painting it to be. Just because introspection and introversion aren't considered socially acceptable traits doesn't mean they aren't the right ones for us.

Personally, I never had much of a social life at all before I got online. I found it very hard to relate to anybody in school. After I dropped out, though, I got online. What a difference! Here were people who talked about things deeper than clothes and who actually shared some interests with me. Who cares that I wasn't there in person -- typing my thoughts out on a computer, looking them over quickly, and then sending them out was much more comfortable and natural for me anyway.

Can I honestly say there's no need for face-to-face interaction at all? No. But I'm more than content to save that for special occasions -- my natural means of making friends is from the inside out, not the outside in (or just sticking to the outside entirely, as some seem to do).

You seem to have shyness confused with introversion.

Being an INTP I know what I am talking about. Being introverted basically means you have a preference for internal rather than external stimulus. Being shy means you feel uncomfortable around people you don't know well. You can usually overcome shyness, but you will almost always stay an introvert.

But here's a chance to say for yourselves whether you consider the Net isolating or not, rather than to have studies or others describe that experience for you,

It occurs to me that the people doing these studies have to be extroverts. (Extroverts are people who seem to gain energy from being around other people; introverts are people who gain energy from doing things -- including just resting -- without other people around. See http://keirsey.com/pumII/ei.html for more.)

This study is blatant in its disregard for introverts like me. Being around other people is often a physically and psychologically draining experience for me. This is because, for whatever reason, spontaneous conversation does not come easily. I find myself searching for a topic or something interesting to say. When I finally find something, the moment has passed, or (worse yet) I have to then edit it to make sure it doesn't sound self-absorbed and that I have formatted it correctly so that it is really understandable. This makes it very difficult to "mingle" at a party, and I end up having that "alone in a crowded room" feeling.

When I write something, however, the words flow more easily because I know that I can and will go back and edit later, before sending/publishing.

Because of this, the 'net has been an indispensible tool in my attempt to communicate and do so effectively. If I had to conduct all business conversation in person or on the phone I would be much less effective than I am using email.

The same is true for certain personal communications. Live, real-time conversation is difficult and draining. Therefore, I'm not as likely to do it. By using email to contact friends, I'm much more likely to actually stay in touch. Since email is so much quicker than the post, real conversations can happen without taking weeks to finish.

So, while the extroverts may look at folks using the internet and say, "Argh! They have no human contact," the introverts look at them and say, "Hey! They're finally able to talk to people."

It still is:

http://keirsey.com/cgi-bin/keirsey/ne wkts.cgi

Online MBTI Test.

"European children seem immune to the disease so the market for Ritalin is largely confined to America."

Dr. James Keirsey - The Great A.D.D. Hoax

Before you dismiss Keirsey as some crackpot, I suggest you read some of his other material. He is one of the most respected psychologists in the country. Plus, his suggested treatment for children misdiagnosed with A.D.D. makes a hell of a lot more sense than pumping them full of Ritalin.

It tries to divide people into 16 "variant temperaments" by evaluating answers to the questions on the test.

Its interesting. I would imagine that most people using Slashdot will end up in the "Rational" group, whereas many people running government would end up in the "Guardian" group. It doesn't presume to rate the intelligence of people, just their temperaments.

It may be that the folks that choose IT as a career fall more into a specific temperament than those who go into, say, automotive engineering.

...which is probably the other reason why most of my high school teachers and university profs always reminded us to "read every question on the exam before you start writing down answers" :-)

Personality Profiling 101:

Knowing how to spot these kinds of questions is a very useful life skill, whether in a Geek Profiling situation or a job interview. For an excellent example of the "ask the same question different ways" techique in action, and for an opportunity get some practice, play with this version of the Keirsey Temperament Sorter.

First, answer with "the truth" - your honest answers to the questions. Then, when you've read your results and realized that the questionnaire is only measuring "yes/no" answers along four orthogonal axes, try to give the "right" answers for an "all-yes" or "all-no" score on the axis of your choice.

Advanced class:

Note that someone who scores "perfectly" - with zero inconsistent answers, less so on Kiersey, but probably more so on something more sophisticated, like Mosaic, is likely to be spotted as a liar. Humans are inherently fuzzy things, and some degree of internal inconsistency is to be expected. Doublethink is normal.

If your answer to "Do you believe in non-violence" is "yes", and your response, 10 questions later, to "What if you saw your wife boinking the milkman" is "I'd ask them to please stop and put their clothes on before inviting them both out to dinner to rationally discuss our differences of opinion on marital fidelity", it could well be as much of a red flag as "I'd cut them into little chunks with my big mofo chainsaw and cook and eat them both, and then throw her goldfish in the microwave for dessert! Muhahahaha!".

(In my obviously-contrived example, a "right" response to the wife question would be "umm, that'd totally such, uh, I dunno, I hope I wouldn't like, freak out completely or anything", particularly if your other answers "If some bozo cut me off in traffic, I'd just let him get up ahead and get busted for speeding, he's worth making a fuss over" are generally consistent with nonviolence.)

(Hopefully this isn't redundant..)

The "Packers" vs. "Mappers" distinction looks a lot like the Sensing vs. iNtuiting distiction in the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and it's ilk.

See http://www.keirsey.com for an online MBTI clone, or http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html for a more skeptical look at MBTI.

Just like the Myers-Brigg Type Indicator, it is a tool. And when understood, it allows you to make better decisions which will affect the rest of your life.

On that note I suggest that everyone here take the MBTI and understand your type. I would guess that the majority of geeks are INTP's or INTJ's. When you understand the complexities of introversion, you will be able to look more clearly at shadow syndromes of autism, and you will realize that it may be one of the causes that make many of us such strong introverts.

Some of you have heard this, but If you haven't, I believe that some of the stereotype of "geeks" is derived from the way others observe our temperament. Temperament is the "nature" side of yourself, the part you can't change.

I think a lot of programmers have what David Keirsey (a psychologist) calls the Rational temperament. In particular, the Inventor ENTP and Architect INTP temperaments. see www.keirsey.com for the whole site.

The basic idea is that everyone has a natural gift, though they come with different frequencies, and they are related to the life choices we make, so a lot of people with the gift of understanding complex abstract technical systesm are attracted to being programmers.

There's a tradeoff though. In order to have a strong imagination, you can't be too content with finding and adapting yourself to norms and standards. And if you're really analytical, you'll make decisions based on what you think is right, rather than what other people feel, because to you, the"truth" that is obvious to you is more important than making someone feel good.
Well, the problem is that being social is about accepting norms and paying attention to what other people feel. Being social is related to accepting norms because for a group to do something and stay cohesive, some people always have to drop their own independent desires.
A "geek" is told to go to a movie with everybody, and he says, "I've already seen it." It's true and logically, there's no point in going to the movie twice if you don't expect to derive enjoyment from a second showing.
A "normal" is told to go to a movie with everybody, and he thinks, "oh, yeah, it'll be a group thing", and goes. He may have planned to do something else, but unless it's something really important, he'll go. he might forgo the movie if he has a socially acceptable task like a church meeting.

As far as politics goes, someone with these temperaments (myself included) is going to try to think about things in terms of what the correct thing to do is. There's a problem-solving orientation. In addition, that independent thought factor is going to make the "geek" to be not too inclined to set up systems of control, eliminating a lot of desire to be conservative. Conservatism is oriented towards protecting something, and often to protect something, you have to enforce control. (passwords, access priveledges in the computer world, laws and tracking systems in the real world.)

Finally, I'll get to the issues about religion. The way I see it, most "geeks" are going to do their best one way or another. If he decides to be an atheist, he'll try to disprove God as best he can from a rational standpoint. If an agnostic, he'll focus on the fact that it can't be proven, and maybe be passive when asked to seek more. His situation is more interesting, I think, when he does believe. I myself am a Christian, and the thing I find is that I see myself focusing what I think are the "real" issues when I think about faith. I.E, how do I know I'm "loving" someone if there's no feedback in it for me? (Sometimes people think I'm being that way, but I may not feel that way internally, because I'm unsure of it due to the lack of a measuring mechanism). I'll also get frustrated with the social aspects of church but not because I'm anti-social. Actually, I like having friends. But church gatherings are often situations where little happens as far as individual activity, and since a geek doesn't naturally identify with large organizations, he finds himself alone in a group of strangers. Even if he's an extrovert.
If you're a Christian geek (I should follow this advice myself), I think what helps is activity with a small group of intense people. That's our social style, and most of the world just hasn't figured that out yet.


So I hope this stands to explain a lot of the stereotypes and situations we deal with. I've been thinking about these issues for about a year, so this is really only the short version of what I have to say.

Some of you have heard this, but If you haven't, I believe that some of the stereotype of "geeks" is derived from the way others observe our temperament. Temperament is the "nature" side of yourself, the part you can't change.

I think a lot of programmers have what David Keirsey (a psychologist) calls the Rational temperament. In particular, the Inventor ENTP and Architect INTP temperaments. see www.keirsey.com for the whole site.

The basic idea is that everyone has a natural gift, though they come with different frequencies, and they are related to the life choices we make, so a lot of people with the gift of understanding complex abstract technical systesm are attracted to being programmers.

There's a tradeoff though. In order to have a strong imagination, you can't be too content with finding and adapting yourself to norms and standards. And if you're really analytical, you'll make decisions based on what you think is right, rather than what other people feel, because to you, the"truth" that is obvious to you is more important than making someone feel good.
Well, the problem is that being social is about accepting norms and paying attention to what other people feel. Being social is related to accepting norms because for a group to do something and stay cohesive, some people always have to drop their own independent desires.
A "geek" is told to go to a movie with everybody, and he says, "I've already seen it." It's true and logically, there's no point in going to the movie twice if you don't expect to derive enjoyment from a second showing.
A "normal" is told to go to a movie with everybody, and he thinks, "oh, yeah, it'll be a group thing", and goes. He may have planned to do something else, but unless it's something really important, he'll go. he might forgo the movie if he has a socially acceptable task like a church meeting.

As far as politics goes, someone with these temperaments (myself included) is going to try to think about things in terms of what the correct thing to do is. There's a problem-solving orientation. In addition, that independent thought factor is going to make the "geek" to be not too inclined to set up systems of control, eliminating a lot of desire to be conservative. Conservatism is oriented towards protecting something, and often to protect something, you have to enforce control. (passwords, access priveledges in the computer world, laws and tracking systems in the real world.)

Finally, I'll get to the issues about religion. The way I see it, most "geeks" are going to do their best one way or another. If he decides to be an atheist, he'll try to disprove God as best he can from a rational standpoint. If an agnostic, he'll focus on the fact that it can't be proven, and maybe be passive when asked to seek more. His situation is more interesting, I think, when he does believe. I myself am a Christian, and the thing I find is that I see myself focusing what I think are the "real" issues when I think about faith. I.E, how do I know I'm "loving" someone if there's no feedback in it for me? (Sometimes people think I'm being that way, but I may not feel that way internally, because I'm unsure of it due to the lack of a measuring mechanism). I'll also get frustrated with the social aspects of church but not because I'm anti-social. Actually, I like having friends. But church gatherings are often situations where little happens as far as individual activity, and since a geek doesn't naturally identify with large organizations, he finds himself alone in a group of strangers. Even if he's an extrovert.
If you're a Christian geek (I should follow this advice myself), I think what helps is activity with a small group of intense people. That's our social style, and most of the world just hasn't figured that out yet.


So I hope this stands to explain a lot of the stereotypes and situations we deal with. I've been thinking about these issues for about a year, so this is really only the short version of what I have to say.

Hmm, if you go look through that site, the list of Presidents who are Idealists says "There are None!"

Perhaps that's part of our problem.

FWIW I'm INTP/INFP, depending on my mood.

It'd be cool if he were INFP. Then we'd have something cool in common (aside from a love for hacking, that is).

I'm INFP/INTP ... depending on mood or situation. More INTP in work matters, INFP in daily life.

The confused can go to www.keirsey.com to be suitably enlightened. (Or, if you're into the more traditional Meyers-Briggs (sp?) tests, you can find out there too. I think there's a x-based version called xmbti, but I don't remember for sure.)

It'd be cool if Woz were INFP. Then we'd have something cool in common (aside from a love for hacking, that is).

I'm INFP/INTP ... depending on mood or situation. More INTP in work matters, INFP in daily life.

The confused can go to www.keirsey.com to be suitably enlightened. (Or, if you're into the more traditional Meyers-Briggs (sp?) tests, you can find out there too. I think there's a x-based version called xmbti, but I don't remember for sure.)