Slashdot Mirror
A Profile of Coders
Zito writes "'The stereotypical programmer is a shy young man who works in a darkened room, intensely concentrating on magical incantations that coax the computer to do his bidding. He can concentrate 12-16 hours at a time, often working through the night to realize his artistic vision. He subsists on pizza and Twinkies,'
Steve McConnell writes for gamasutra about profiles of software developers. "
These things really piss me off. Many of us don't fit this profile at all. I know alot of geeks, myself included, who have a life, a steady relationship, have hobbies outside of their computer, and many friends. Yes, I like to play on my computer, but I'm also into sports, I go to football games, I play pickup games, I go to the gym. Can't they figure out that many of us are actually well rounded people?
What about the large amounts of Surge, Jolt and other high caffeine beverages that programmers learn to survive on?
Sounds a lot like the premeds at my college.
But seriously folks, if we want a REAL profile of "J. Random Hacker" (Programmer), we should look at the Jargon file, Appendix B. It's got about the best description there is.
-Chris
I remember those days. Wake up around 2pm, code until 4am, stopping only to order a pizza or go take a piss. Burning up cubes of Dew every day with the refrigerator set to Siberian Mode to cool it faster.
Now I'm a network engineer. Same hours, same pizza, same dew consumption, but sometimes I have to go kick a switch or replug a router. *sigh*
"To err is human, to forgive is simply not my policy." --root
They know we're well rounded. We gain that shape because of our insistent cravings for slacking and junk food, and utter loathing for anything that requires physical movement of more than fingers.
What about those suffering Too-Many-Hours-Close-To-The-Vending-Machine syndrome? The people know just how to jiggle each machine, and which machine has the best stuff on each day.
In Japan they sell beer in the vending machines. I don't know how the hell they get any coding done.
If everyone would stop wearing those Star Trek and Babylon 5 t-shirts this sterotype would soon fade. And what about women programmers, there is more to girls on computers than pr0n.
I don't know about the other "IT professionals" who read /. but this definitely conforms perfectly to me. If I am without Mt. Dew, my day is ruined. If I am without my mid-morning twinkies, people avoid me as if I've got PMS. Long live the stereotypical coder :-)
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
My attention span is about 45 minutes max
judging from the liberal use of the pronoun in that snippet, it must be so.
I can hardly wait until the story gets stale so I can get to the link ! :)
I am a SysAdmin, but I code in C, a little Java, HTML, Perl, thisthatwhatever. I like programming for myself and do it at home, making my little apps to make the life easier, but full time programming is not my thing and avoid going at it at work.
I am a falconer (drop the chihuahua!), and often go out on weekends hiking around the mountains in Arizona or the desert. My home is a little small, but I keep the desk clean and my systems look as good as they run. I eat well, but supplement my caffine and sugar intake with Mountain Dew.
musthavemountaindewmountaindewmountaindewmountaind ewmountaindewmountaindew....
We have to devote our hearts and souls to the trade in order to learn how to write good code.
The logical, non judgemental nature of computers tends to be a friendlier environment for shy folks who cannot figure out the whimsical, inconsistent and often childish and pointless rules of 'social skills'. In a world where Tommy Lee can beat Pamela Lee to a pulp and still remain a popular star, maybe computers are the only darned things that make any real sense.
I find it rather hypocritical that anyone can stand around laughing at a geek programmer's "lack of social skills". He's not the one hiding in the trunk of a car trying to evade police after murdering his girlfriend. (That would be you, Rae Carruth.) The devastating consequences of the excesses of those socially skilled 'alpha male' types make headline news all the time.
The image of this dashing Don Juan who can code up a clean version of Netscape overnight while weightlifting his way to tomorrow's Mister Universe competition while knowing all the slick lines that make the chicks swoon, is a myth. You put someone like that into a real honest to god developer's job and he'll be flat out crushed by the kind of tasks that the four-eyed geeks drink up like orange juice.
I've seen it happen on my job too many times. The witty funny dashing fellow gets his head handed to him time after time by the fat guy down the hall who spends half a day cleaning up the first guy's code with bug fixes and speed enhancements and then finally getting him fired for being a (relatively) crappy programmer.
Heh, this should really piss the moderators off...lol.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
All of the people I know who are 'actual' programmers (as opposed to people who just think they are programmers) fit this mold rather well.
Stereotypes are not necessarily bad things, nor are they usually untrue.
Why do people always need to classify others into neat little boxes?
Though.. I would admit I would fit into the geek stereotype pretty well.. cept that I am not male.
And, I hate coke.
bah.
You'll never code as well as those hard core geeks. Trust me, the endless hours the spend hacking at that code pays off in the form of a higher level of mastery than you could ever imagine. I've seen the difference.
The missing ingredient in so many good software developers is the ability to express and communicate to others. Sure, innate programming skill is extremely useful, but a software project always consists of more than one person. The cohesian/interaction of the different members,be they developers, analysts, users, or whatever - is of utmost importance. Project managers obviously play a big role here. Programming is only part of the software development lifecycle. (in my view good systems testing is not emphasized enough in the workplace). -Dan
I guess I do not qualify as a programmer since I go to bed before 1am. Work out a lot. AND this is the kicker. Have a good relationship with my girlfriend. Someone should tell my bosses..
JA
If you bothered to READ that to which you are currently objecting, then you would notice that they are talking about the *STEREOTYPICAL* programmer being male (hell, they even STATE that!). They do NOT state that ALL programmers are male.
But hey, don't facts get in the way of your whinging, eh?
I code in anylanguage I can learn, but this isn't me at all. I can't concentrate for more than an hour at best, I hate twinkies (although I love pizza), I have a steady girlfriend (whom I play quake with and tend to lose), I go out and partcpiate in social interactions like playing pool, and I keep every light in my room on. Who the heck did they get to write that profile anyway?
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
the server is down or not responding!
16 hours a day? On a light day maybe, pizza and twinkies? Well burgers and caffine is more like it. But more or less this is pretty much correct. These days I'm a little more sane, the all nighters are only when necisary and I've even be seen outside during the day (shock!).
The issue I have is why is this seen as so bad! Football fans doing nothing but drink beer and talk about football, many music fan's are the same, the list goes on. This language is a hangover from the dark years of geekdom. What needs to be understood about us is that we live for the challenge, it's a way of life.
All these posts about sterotypeing are mundane, there is nothing wrong with being like this, and there is nothing wrong with not being like this it's a choice, it's what you enjoy and want.
Axiom #1: Steve McConnell is the author of (among other things) "Code Complete" where he advocates good engineering practices for software developers. In that book he specifically debunks the myth that "real programmers stay up all night coding and eating cold pizza".
Axiom #2: The quote taken from the story says "stereotypical programmer".
Axiom #3: The full story seems to be unavailable (/. effect?).
Axiom #4: Many posts on slashdot are already using the quote as fodder both for and against the notion that "programmers are misfits". Lemma 1: Putting Axioms 1 and 2 together we can conclude that this story will be a further debunking of the "Real Programmers are Social Misfits" myth.
Lemma 2: Axiom #3 and #4 allow us to conclude that the quote is the sole source of fodder.
Conclusion: Lemma 1 and 2 show us that maybe we should read the article before responding.
---
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
This thing is a mirror of me.(cept I like ho-ho's:)
Although I don't like stereotypes,
sometimes it is funny and
this made me do two things.
1. laugh.
2. realize I need to get out more.
Gentleman, you can't fight in here, this is the war room..
who sez death can't be funny....www.endlesssorrow.com
Well, lessee, let's profile geeks. How do we know they are geeks? Take the steretype: male programmers, low social skills, spend 16+ hours plugged into the computer, sleep till noon, code till dawn, caffeine is a basic food group, etc. etc. Pick the people that match the stereotype and now profile them. Surprise! It turns out that geeks tend to be male programmers, low social skills, spend 16+ hours..... etc.
;) are lawyers. Not all lawyers, though -- not litigation lawyers and not small-office lawyers. But corporate lawyers working for big law firms tend to be very very smart people, and very geeky as well. Tax people are the geekiest, by the way.
I'll define a geek as a person who can think cleanly and can deal with very complicated systems. If you start from this point, the profiles are probably going to look very different. For example, in my limited experience, the best and smartest geeks (besides, the Slashdot crowd, of course
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
This profile fits me perfectly, well except for the stuff that doesn't match me at all. If I have the proper inspiration/modivation to code, I shift into code mode and instantly fit that profile to a tea. Unfortunately, I am hardly ever inspired and so am forced to resort to being a Network Admin while still maintaining a healthy level of caffiene in my system.
P.S. Ginseng and Guarana (Both easily attainable in Sobe beverages, work wonders and they don't leave you feeling like crap after they wear off.
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I always thought it was Chinese food and Pizza.
Nobody delivers twinkies at 1:00 AM
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
Is that something akin to "A Crappy of Options"?
In the end, you have to ask yourself what the costs have been and what you have gained. Do you want to have a family to support you in your old age? Sure it's great to make things work, and accomplishemnts are a source of pride. The endless persuit of someone else's proffit just plain sucks. Don't get sucked into something that seems rewarding without really knowing what you want. The only way to know is to try it out. What's the use of developing cool code or anything else if you die single at age 50? Leaving behind a wife and kids is not to fun either.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
All of my friends that could be considered "geeks," myself included, do drink a significant amount of caffine, and eat junky food when we're working, but that's not all that we are.
We're not socially inept, we have poker at my apt every thursday night, we go out to parties, we even drink. Heck some of my friends can really drink.
We do spend time doing work, and if needed, we'll work for 16 hours straight with only minor breaks, but that's usually cause we put it off unti too late, and decided to go have fun first. Geeks do have lives.
Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those that do know me, DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me.
I'm sure hackers think it is the best, since it almost unfailingly paints hackers in a positive light, but it sure as Hell isn't highly accurate or objective. It's self-congratulating to the point of being nauseous, filled with such gems as "Hackers often have a reading range that astonishes liberal arts people but tend not to talk about it as much." Garbage.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
I use to be able to sit here at my computer and work for hours at just about anything: coding, networking, reading the web...
Then they put a phone on my desk and it just won't stop ringing!!!
When I was coding I liked to think I had a life outside of C and COBOL. I mean I went out and partied and had a girfriend and all that. But I did live off of mountain dew, coffee and pizza for a couple of mounths. I worked long hours(mostly at night), But Hey that doesn't mean I fit the "stigma" does it? Sure I liked video games and surfin the net lookin for ways into the NSA. But does that mean I fit the "stigma"? I had a nice car and liked sports. I think that I was the "stigma". I can live with that. 'Cause now I a net. admin. No more long hours in front of a computer screen for me.NOT. MIS people tend to think they are not geeks when really we are regardless of what we do on our spare time. Live with it. love it and deal with it. Hey at least we get payed well.
IT HAS YOU....
i guess i haven't left my darkened room long enough to notice there was a stereotype. weird. i can't wait for the stereotype geek sitcom to come around. course, i don't watch tv much--so it might already exist. 0x90210, maybe?
it should be noted, that most geek-folk i know prefer sushi to twinkies. and we're not shy--just socially-challenged, thank you very much. i know i met most of the women I knew in college because they had computer problems.
/will
deep.
--
True communication is only possible among equals. The project managers I encountered played a big role indeed, but more akin to Dilbert's PHB than to anything positive. Whenever I work with competent, the needed communication is minimal. No minutes, no formalities, no political correctness, no BS. When you take that out, only the relevant remains, and it's not that much, really. It is heaven.
Testing is of course fundamental, and QA should be done by other people than the programmers, with the only problem that they become VERY bitter after some time if they do only QA. We solved it doing 'peer review': You tested other programmer's soft, and they tested yours. Then you do both things with more care and forgiveness, assuming of course comparable skills...
There are literally millions of Americans employed in the production of software in one sense or another. These stereotypes simply reinforce the societal bias against technologists.
The funny thing is that when I read the article, I immediately thought: "Man, this is me when I get into a craze making art, 3d, or anything that needs intense concentration."
So, I think that the article accurately describes anyone that is passionately creative. I know that I have worked through the night and only stopped when my back hurt from standing for 10 hours without realising the time fly by.
Please raise your hands if you havn't done that before.
Art, 3d, coding.. it's all the same. It an obsessive passion, it's what drives us Geeks!
--
rJames.org - illustration
I put up a quick mirror of the article at http://sam.wood.tripod.com/mcconnell_01.htm
:-)
The site is under some heavy traffic or something.. Anyway, there's 4 pages in the article, and I've got the first 3.. working on the fourth..
Sorry about it being tripod.. I know tripod sucks (that popup is annoying as hell), but it's quick, easy, and free.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
From The Tao Of Programming:
T h e A n c i e n t M a s t e r s
B o o k T w o
Thus spake the master programmer:
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
More I cannot say. The tao must be experienced for true understanding to dawn.
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Look - I've had to deal with code written at 2AM. It's not pretty. I much prefer dealing with other professionals who can get their work done easily within a normal 8 hour day.
A few lines after the quoted bit, we have this:
"How much of the stereotype is true, and what effect does it have on the programming occupation? To find out, let's look first at the programmer's personality then at the other elements of the stereotype."
Kinda changes the meaning of the part that Slashdot quoted, doesn't it? Maybe they could try reading the links before they actually post them...
I totally disagree with that image. While I will admit that I am a "geek", I am not attached to my computer. Heck, I often prefer to spar in the ring at my kickboxing club then spend hours hacking at my keyboard. This is one geek who's not going to be pushed around! Am I right?
The part about the stereotype is in the introduction as sort of a straw man. The rest of the article is a sensitive, positive look at the programmer's personality type.
I take exception to his description of programmers. I haven't had a twinkie in probably twenty years! I'm also in the gym 5 days a week.
I don't deny that the power geeks aren't so numerous. The kind of skill needed to code a behemoth NT (as the gamasutra article put it) comes at a great cost, even when there is a team involved. That kind of skill is very very rare.
And as I said, 'personality' is a load of relativist hogwash anyway. Shy people don't learn social skills because they're always busy learning how to dodge *your* hateful jabs. They spent their lives avoiding getting rat tailed in the locker room and getting brutally piled on by jocks for saying 'hi' to a chick in a cafeteria and never understanding why in the heck they got jumped for trying to introduce themselves to someone they thought wasn't with anyone.
In other words these guys are shy because they're only trying to protect themselves from an insensitive, hateful, judgemental, and intolerant world. Computers give them that refuge, and in exchange these ubergeeks give computers their undying fealty in the form of becoming dedicated hard core programmers, because in the end the computers are the only things they can trust, and the only things they can rely on. The computer industry is their shield from a world where inconsistency, lack of personal integrity, cruelty, undecipherable social code words and capriciousness is the stuff of 'great personalities'.
Oh did I mention ignorance? Everyone throws around this term 'personality' and the other one.. 'social skills'. Do you have any idea what that really means? I know. You probably think "well he's gotta bathe at least once a day, wear clean, color matched clothes, and he shouldn't mumble when he talks."
DUH!!!!! I don't know any shy, socially handicapped geek who doesn't shower at least once a day. I don't know any ubergeek who would dare to wear dirty clothes. Most geeks I know will speak up and not mumble. The only good point is some guys aren't color coordinated with their wardrobe. But this 'Personality' crap - that's just a code word for "a guy who spits out witty little jokes that the hivemind thinks is funny, and who can laugh at the most stupid and senseless humor (see: south park), and who can dress the way the hivemind approves."
Some of these geeks never got the chance to learn social skills like you or I did. They were too busy trying to avoid you so you wouldn't break their neck in gym class, haze them with broomsticks in the locker room or gang up on them after school for the fun of it. The Gamasutra site speaks rightly when they speak of 'dispassionate, cold' programmer types - I know these guys. They're dispassionate and cold because you beat the warmth out of them back in high school! Remember? The coldness is the result of the armor plating they've evolved around their hearts which you stabbed every time you stole their glasses or made fun of their clothes.
Now you guys start preaching about 'social skills', and even if you had an idea of what you really meant, you lack the ability to understand the solution to these shy ubergeek types.
The solution is not to go around dissing them because they have no social skills, that's easy. Anyone can do that. Try making an honest to God effort to draw these shy types into the fold, eh? I know it ain't easy for ye of such short attention spans (talk about social skills) and no patience (ah yes more of that great personality thing), but the truly insightful one among you will sit these shy guys down and talked to them. Talk to them about what you see in them, in a non judgemental and non hostile manner, and work out steps to draw them out of their cold protective shell. Think of the training wheels approach. But then again I know you lack the patience, compassion and insight to pull this one off.
I wonder if Commander Taco would be willing to tackle this issue with the intent to help those who are shy and socially handicapped. Why are they handicapped? What was their past history? How do we help them without being so damned crass and pretentious and stuck up about how much 'better than them' we are? Not all shy people want help, of course, but I guarantee you a lot will come if you offer the real deal instead of a bunch of code words and b.s.
Mark my words, people, the people who attack this 'social handicap' issue with compassion and not conceit, will solve the biggest problem in the 21st century. Mark my words. I guarantee you the programming community will benefit astronomically from this.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
USA Today reported that the techie nerd stereotype is so well entrenched that students in every grade ranked computer jobs near the bottom of their lists of career choices. This quote is taken from the body of the article... is it any wonder there is a shortage of technology workers in an economy becoming increasingly dependent on this very technology when they perpetuate such stereotypes in the mass media?
Keep in mind that generalizations are just that - generalizations. They apply to groups, not individuals. Many people, reporters not excempt, make broad generalizations or extrapolate from a select few people a label or stereotype for the entire group... hence many misconceptions of what geeks are.
Watch out for that Caffeine. I used to inhale caffeine while I worked. Pepsi was my favorite. Followed by coke.
I started having problems. My mind, which I value quite highly, would just shut down about 8pm or so. I could not perform simple arithmetic, like adding two single digit numbers.
It reached the point where I was so concerned, I started inquiring about medical help. A coworker pointed out that I was consuming a great deal of caffeine during the day. He asked what time I stopped consuming caffeine. I said about 6pm, or I couldn't get to sleep. Hmm. 6pm. 8pm. The light bulb goes on.
But I wasn't consuming that much caffeine, was I? I started adding it up. Lunch. Dinner. Snacks. While I was working.... It added up to about 3 liters of Pepsi/Coke per day.
Hint: This is not a good thing!
I went off caffeine cold turkey. I had a really, *REALLY* bad week. As did my coworkers. But I stayed clean afterwards. (Fruit juices, AKA SUGAR, helps.)
Curiously, about six months later, during a routine doctors visit, I learned that my resting pulse had dropped by over 30 beats per minute.
40 years ago, people knew that cigarettes were bad for them. Today, people say how could they smoke like that back then? When they knew cigarettes were bad for them...
Today, we know that caffeine is bad for us. 40 years from now, people will say "How could they consume caffeine like that? When they knew it was bad for them..."
The description is taken from McConnell's new book "After the Gold Rush", subtitled "Creating a True Profession of Software Engineering". I recommend the book (as well as his other efforts), and can report that the description is given as a warning, not as an ideal. McConnell advocates elevating our trade by subscribing to set standards and ethics. He argues that we either do so ourselves, or wait for the government to dictate it. After all the money that was spent on Y2K, how long will it be until legislation is introduced requiring coders to be licensed?
Just think, you could have put that twinkie away twenty years ago and pulled it out on New Year's Eve. I think the half-life of a twinkie is about 150 years.
For all the carping about the hacker stereotype, it sure seems like there are plenty of people who get a lot of comfort from the fact that they "fit" the stereotype. I work with some. The most pedestrian Star Trek reference will have them rolling in the aisles; anything outside the approved canon of nerd interests gets a quizzical look or a dismissive comment. This strikes me as strange, since the typical path to computer-nerdness contains a lot of peer rejection. Just goes to show: people are social animals, and have to feel that they are part of a group...
well I got to go become a socialy inept, twinkie eating, coke guzzling, sitting in the dark 'real' coder now. Man my wife and children aren't going to like that, but Hey I want to fit the profile. I would hate to be denieed emoplyment opportunities because I actually work 40 hour week, was able to find a wonderfull women to fall in love with, enjoy many things not computer related, but that means I'm not any good at my job.
what is truley sad is that some people in the industry believe you got to be that way or you're no good.
I did the test when I was in college (RCC) and was amazed to find that 90% of the class was either ISTJ or ESTJ. People of this profile seem to be attracted to computers.
I worked as a hardware tech for eight years and I am currently a Network Analyst. Again the majority of the people I work with scored the same on the test.
We are well rounded people with many interests, but computers are the common thread.
Technology is only a vehicle. People are the ones that drive it.
Now I really wouldn't consider this too funny, But I'm coding right now, sitting in the dark, and I just ate some pizza. I didn't really consider myself being anything close to a typical programmer/geek whatever but that was just hillarious...
Do most geeks truly spend most of their time in the dark, only coming out for sunlight when they either a) need more caffeine or b) when they go through the wrong door, or are we truly a diurnal (that means daytime-lovin', kiddos) species?
I know that I, for one, do not like working on my computer with large amounts of light on. In fact, I prefer the dark as I can see better (no glare, tunnel vision, etc.). Where I work, everyone who codes does so in dark rooms. If they're in an office with windows, they pull the shades. It has nothing to do with introversion or anything like that; it's purely a lighting mechanism.
Is this an anomaly, or is the stereotype an anomaly? Are you reading Slashdot in the dark right now? Do you normally read it in the dark?
Oh, and I'm not a 'stereotypical' geek. I have a life. I didn't major in CS or EECS. I have social graces. I tend to keep my dietary intake at a reasonable lev -- did someone say 'Twinkie'?
*gurgle*
Sure, I may occassionaly stay up an entire night coding, perhaps several nights in a row (GL stuff is sooooo cool). But, I also lift weights everyday, play the guitar, eat a balanced diet, play soccer, watch football, or go on a date. In fact, a lot of girls these days find the geek/engineer/intellectual thing quite attractive. I have a roommate that is similar, and some more engineer friends that have geek interests but otherwise don't fit that mold. Maybe I'm in geek denial or something...
Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
Your not a geek. probably never will be. And if these things pisses you off so much, go pick your own name for whatever sub culture you come from. You sound more like an [wannabe?] i.t. professional to me...
Just because you: "like to play on [your] computer" dosen't make you (or your friends) a geek either.
I'm truly pisses off by your comment.
it is off topic and on topic, IMO. I won't even debate the issue of stereptypes being ewrong or right, I know what demographic sub-group you're talking about here, and it is very real, and so are their problems. When we sit up here on our high horses and make fun of fat, shy geeks, we totally show we have no perception and no compassion. You cannot take a man who has been blinded since birth and make him fly an F-16 into a dogfight with Russian MiG's and hope to bring him back home alive. Likewise you can't just grab some shy introverted geek and say "GET SOME SOCIAL SKILLS YOU IDIOT!!!" and hope to just toughlove him into social adeqacy. He doesn't know the rules, or the meta rules, and when he last tried to understand them he got brutally smacked down. We've got to take responsibility in addressing this and looking for a soltion that is more warm harted, patient and caring than we come across on here. I mean, we are supposedly 'superior' socil animals, right? Or are we just as cold blooded and impersonal as the people we're decrying? Or are we......gasp.......jus plain ELITIST?? I'll tell you this. I'm good with women and I'm good with making friends and influencing people. So I will make a pledge, I'll go find one shy geek that I know is willing to learn, and I'll coach him for as long as it takes. I'll try my hand out at being a social skills personal trainer. I'll have to monitor his conversational style and diagnose him just like I do my computer network, and it'll be a hella tough job becase he's analog and not digtal, and I'll have to put up with his occasional disagreements and my mistakes, but that only means I get to enhance my perception, patience and perseverence skills. And I'll make a difference and beat the system too, and I'll feel good and downright superior and better than the rest of you slashdotters, about muhself. How about that? Anyone else wanna chip in?
:-)
I took a MBTI test a while back (when it was actually free on some site), and I was an INTJ. I have to say it is dead on.
/love/ to /design/ things...I love to draw diagrams on whiteboards (heh, I have UML diagram syntax sheets pinned to my cube!), map out conceptualizations, and hypothesize about optimal configurations at the abstract design level. However I find very often that I grind to a standstill very fast when 'dirty' implementation details are brought up, because my mind is stuck in the theoretical optimization mode, and at his fine-grained implementation level, I get hung up on stuff others wouldn't; e.g. a matter of an unnecessary byte or cycle.
/give/ you. ("All I ever needed to know I learned from manuals" ;)
"An example of an N is a designer who considers wide-ranging possibilities and shrugs off low-level technical issues as "implementation details."
I
I usually find that if I am assigned one project, I might take a bit longer than normal to complete that project, but only because I've spawned five more in the process of working on it. (I have lost count of how many partially started projects I have...last time I looked in my dev folder it was over 40).
This article also gives me a bit more confidence, knowing that at least a fifth of us out there are in my "Some college, no degree" boat. I expect that number to rise as people realize that software engineering requires things like a sharp mind, dogged persistence, and a lot of flexibility and creativity...things that knowledge-stuffing colleges can't
Jazilla.org - the Java Mozilla
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
You know you're a geek when you see "coax" and try to figure out what the story has to do with cabling.... I'm too sexy for my code, too sexy for my code...
the geeks i know (programmers, and hardware geeks) tend to use lots of drugs. the best programmers i know are really smart, smoke lots of pot, really like beer, and the occassional trip and xanax (highly reccomended) some of us like sports, some dont, some have girl problems, but at least we try. however most of us are atheist
I won't comment much on the long hours of work thing. As Steve McConnell correctly pointed out in his article, this mostly happens because the programmers involved don't have a clue how to do good engineering and therefore put in 16 and 20 hour days trying to debug something that could have been avoided in the first place.
But the bit about the Meyers/Briggs personality inventory thing sure rings true. I am an INTP (and very good with UI designs and architecture, plus a fair coder), which is a fairly rare type. But all of the good programmers I have ever worked with were 'NT's or 'ST's. And the examples he gave of the 'S' versus 'N' conflicts were right on as well.
Personally, if I was hiring, I would apply two major criteria to weed out the dross. First I would require the Meyers/Briggs type on the application and second I would have them list the magazines they read reguarily (I call this the 'Toilet Tank Test'). If it mostly things like Golf Digest I pass. If it includes Dr. Dobbs I invite them in for an interview.
I also liked the description of 'Programming Heroes and Ball Hogs'. Very true according to my own experience!
But I sure wish people would get off this rip about programming being a young man's game. First off you really don't have to be a man. And second off, what about the old geeks like myself? At least the article goes so far as to point out that this will change over time. I sure hope so! So far as I can tell, old programmers tend to be either shoved aside or promoted to management. Either possibility seems equally like Purgatory to me!
Jack
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
They feel the need to classify because classifications work. I wouldn't be surprised if you did a fair amount of classification yourself - after all, it is a fundamental cognitive process.
...
As for the personality typing, well, I know a few things about that. And while it has its share of skeptics, the tedium (as opposed to the glory) of software development has overwhelming appeal to only a few personality types. I don't belong to one of them. Software design, on the other hand
--
--
There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
I now this has nothing to do with this but.. I like the new Icon ;)
Shit, He should try to learn how to play football. New Orleans gave away two years worth of draft choices. Maybe they can find him a job in the front office.. h0h0h0
and honestly... Twinkies? Whatever... Mt. Dew and the original Jolt cola (with the possible addition of their new Grape flavor) are all I need... and cigarettes.
and most programmers have great social skills... their scope is just "special" and almost a different culture and language than the rest of society's... like, instead of fat blonde jokes, we have Micro$haft and dumb end user jokes that make us wiggle.
Am I right or am I right?
- ...dashing Don Juan who can code up a clean version of Netscape overnight while weightlifting his way to tomorrow's Mister Universe competition while knowing all the slick lines that make the chicks swoon, [will] be flat out crushed by the kind of tasks that the four-eyed geeks drink up like orange juice.
It's a shame you feel you can't be witty. It's a shame you don't have the confidence to talk charmingly to MOTAS. It's a shame that you are intimidated by exersize activities. It's a shame that you seem to feel that being overweight is an unsolvable condition that isolates one from society.The witty funny dashing fellow gets his head handed to him time after time by the fat guy down the hall...
A few years ago, I worked with a guy, Tom, who developed a stellar C++ object library for doing 3D rendering. He is one of the smartest people I've met (and this includes the likes of Stallman, Chomsky and Minsky); he has a PhD. He is a very good looking and in great shape (3rd Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do). He has a gorgeous wife (also PhD/Black Belt etc.) and managed his development schedule succefully enough to be a great father to his two precocious daughters.
One could resent a guy like that. Instead, I realize that the differences between Tom and me are due to different choices we've made. I never pursued an advanced degree. I've stayed single. I quit Tae Kwon Do when I got a brown belt. It must be great to be Tom, but obviously I don't want to be him -- or I probably would be.
You feel that you are a great coder. That's wonderful. Now go ahead and be the witty, dashing fellow, too, because you clearly consider that to be desirable in some way. The only thing really stopping you is the equally visible belief that you can't.
Keep me up to date on how this goes. My email is travoltus@hotmail.com - your idea is absolutely awesome!
PS: moderators made me eat crow, news@11.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Q: How do you spot an extroverted programmer?
A: He stares at *your* shoes when he's talking to you.
Who says that wit is detrimental to coding. Creativty can help, can't it?
Your comment does not make me angry, it makes me sad. I'm sorry that you live in a shop where people get crushed then fired for not cutting off their nads, loosing their health, and hating that which is not fat and rude. I'm sorry that you have sold your soul to that shop. I expect more from my employers and my trade.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
which is exactly opposite of the stereotypical programmer.
These things really bother me because the people that are in the software field already know that everyone is not the same. The only people that could gain anything from reading these are people on the outside looking in, and these stereotypes just make people misinformed instead of uninformed.
OK, enough of my rant now! I'm going to go be an Extroverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving car shopper. (yeah right!)
PEACE
Online MBTI Test.
BLAH BLAH the jocks at my school (fsu....hey it was free!) get the free tutors and their teachers get the "either they pass or u fail" haha
I'm an ENTP, but then, I'm Sysadmin and definitly
no programmer (though I sometimes try to..)
Kirth
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
That guy working 16-hour days and subsisting on pizza and twinkies is not necessarily more productive (especially in the long run) than the guy whose leaving at 5:30. Stressing out your employees to the point where they're leaving the field and not just your company is dumb. "Gee, he's irreplacable- let's work him till he quits."
"How did you learn so much about 401(k) programs?"
"I read section 401(k) of the code! Doesn't everybody?"
Ironically, computer code and statute code aren't all that different. And the source code for the law is public domain!
But what you forget is that introvert shy coders wouldn't be out socializing and doing other things even if they weren't coders. They would be burying their noses in books and academia, or they would be musicians or artists working and studying in isolation. Before computers were around, there were plenty of artistic, intelligent, but very anti-social men around. Computer programming is just one of the newer activities which appeals to these kinds of people. Indeed, these kinds of people do tend to be extremely good at what they do. And although you consider it a loss to not have a more well-rounded life, these people clearly don't. The value of having a well-rounded life is, like everything else, relative. To you it is extremely valuable to have a well-rounded life, but to other people it may not be of any value at all. Just depends on who you are and what you think is important and/or enjoyable to do with your life.
- "It's just a matter of opinion!" - PRIMUS
A lot of people are talking about massive amounts of caffeine in order to stay awake for long coding binges. Why not methamphetamine instead. It should be healthier than a few grams of caffeine a day. It's going to help concentration instead of hurting it like caffeine. It doesn't cause the physical addiction that caffeine does, either.
It will let you stay awake longer than caffeine, but that's a negative. Don't stay up for days, you'll lose your mind.
Compared to the socially adept, 'silver-tongued' Alpha-male, used car sales[people]... In my thirty years around computer 'geeks', WE seem much more concerned by and bound to the TRUTH and not by methods to conquest. One deals with systems without deception or exageration-thus our lack of experience with lies. That may equate to 'a lack of social skills'. I, for one, am proud of that lack. "True words are never charming and charming words are never true." Lao Tzu
Reading the above posts, it seems to me that the question is not wether the article acuratly describes the stereotypical geek/hacker/coder, but rather:
Why do you all rush to play down those who do not fit this artifical "profile"?
Even a quick flick through the posts from some of the Slashdoters above will reveal that most of them are quick to fit themselves into this stereotype, or play down the people who have said "Well, i don't fit the stereotype". Why is this?
I have always thought that a hacker was a hacker, a geek was a geek etc. When it suits you all, you group everyone of us together as Geeks, and even post hacker dictionary definitions of the word (Which last time i saw it, did not mention anything to do with eating pizza, mountain dew, or working ungodly hours). But sudenly someone decides what they think a geek is, and everyone rushes to pidgeon hole themselves.
Personally, i find it sad that some people feel the need to do this.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
I'm a geek because i love to work on computers. Technology fascinates me, programming fasciniates me. I love the power and complexity of computer systems, and when you throw in netowrking to the whole picture, its quite beautiful.
I don't simply "play" with my computer, it is a part of my life. I can't function without an internet connection or email.
However, I still have outside activities and a social life. My original post was not a troll, I was simply stating that this "profile" is a load of shit. Profiles in general suck.
If you can't handle that, too bad.
The Gamasutra site speaks rightly when they speak of 'dispassionate, cold' programmer types - I know these guys. They're dispassionate and cold because you beat the warmth out of them back in high school! Remember? The coldness is the result of the armor plating they've evolved around their hearts which you stabbed every time you stole their glasses or made fun of their clothes.
I know exactly what you mean. I myself have called it "The Wall", as Roger Waters did. Different cause, same effect.
The other poster is exactly right about the ignorance of rules and meta-rules provides a nearly insurmountable barrier to re-entering the social world. As a result, so many of us are damned to spend our lives staring at pixels, rather than into the eyes of those we care about. Though, there is a bit of purity and beauty in the code and the craft surrounding it that is comforting.
Unfortunately, I don't have any helpful suggestions. If I did I would have found a way to break down The Wall by now myself.
a) Answer any Windows-related problem encountered by anyone less into computers with 'Upgrade to Linux!' and a high-pitched chortle with his fellow geeks;
b) Send around all the latest hilarious Bill Gates jokes, and to constantly relate anything expensive to Bill Gates's fortune, accompanied again by that high-pitched chortle;
c) Explain in an exceptionally patronizing manner to anyone who will listen that 'GNU' is a 'recursive acronymn' and break down into that obligatory annoying laughter when the recipient of this tidbit stares back in bafflement, having missed the extraordinary humor in this side-splitter.
And I couldn't stop thinking that, even though I've been programming since I was about 9, as a woman, I couldn't fit the profile even if I wanted to. Worse yet, being an ENTJ on the Myers-Briggs, I must be doomed to one day become management. God help me!
Steve McConnell is president and chief software engineer at Construx Software, where he divides his time between leading custom software projects, teaching classes, and writing books and articles. He is the author of the Microsoft Press books Code Complete (1993), Rapid Development (1996), and Software Project Survival Guide (1998). His books have twice won Software Development magazine's Jolt Excellence Award for outstanding software development book of the year. In 1998, readers of Software Development named Steve one of the three most influential people in the software industry along with Bill Gates and Linus Torvalds. In his spare time, Steve serves as editor in chief of IEEE Software magazine. He is on the panel of experts that provides advice to the Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) project, and is a member of IEEE and ACM.
Steve earned a bachelor's degree from Whitman College and a master's degree in software engineering from Seattle University. He lives in Bellevue, Washington with his wife, Tammy; daughter, Haley; and dog, Daisy. If you have any comments or questions about this book, please contact Steve via e-mail at stevemcc@construx.com or via his web site at http://www.construx.com/stevemcc/.
I known I've seen his books on the shelf, but only laugh we I see such titles by MS Press. Fun to read I suppose, but nothing exactly insightful, or even surprising.
One of the things I hate about the world is stereotyping. Everybody and their sister seems to think people fit into catagories, like kiddie blocks, we're supposed to fit into square pegs. This is not true, especially not anymore.
Firstly, the image that "Computers == Geeks || Nerds || Dorks" does not apply anymore. Everybody is on the internet, and everybody has (or to the very least) wants a computer. All that crap you see in the movies of jocks beating up on computer dorks saying 'Go watch your star trek and play with your computer dork' just isn't true, and most likely, that same jock will be making fun of the same person over icq or irc.
Now with the article's point, I have to bite at it for personal reasons. I fit the above description of a coder who sometimes works looooong hours too meet a deadline or just because I'm in the 'mood' for coding whena all my ideas are just coming out one after the other and sleep can wait till later.
Just as an example from something that happened personally, during my first year in university, I had the pleasure of meeting a lot of new people. At one time, one person asked me what I do for work
But what people don't get is that coders and techies don't need to to be skinny, pale, with ugly glasses and bad posture. I'm know I'm not, want an example ? Take Linus Torvalds. I like to think I have good social skills since I have quite a lot of friends, I go clubbing and raving as often as I can. And I love the wimmen : )
And I don't feel as if I'm an exception either. A lot people whom I've met who typically ten or twenty years ago would have nothing to do with computers or networking, or even linux in general are nowadays wanting to learn about that 'stuff'.
People should really stop stereotyping, its just a bad thing and will get you into trouble later on. So the next time you see that jock in high school that bugged you all the time, be carefull cause he might be able to code circles in ASM around ya ; )
you know you are SIGNAL
I think you're both right, and are looking at the same thing from different angles.
Everyone has a "life" capacity, and that capacity varies from person to person. Call it intelligence, or charm, or something else for which there is no word yet - it's clear that some people can accomplish great things with seemingly less effort than their peers. It also seems to be something that is, at least partially, under our control through our choice of diet, exercise, etc. (e.g., if you're already physically active it is an energizer, but if you've fallen out of shape it is a huge drain/investment to get back into shape.)
Tom sounds like one of those lucky people who has a huge capacity, whether innate or developed. However, I also agree with the first poster that *most* people seem to fall into the "you can be pretty or you can be right" trap and there's an inverse relationship between technical skills and other skills. It's not absolute, but it's a direct enough correlation that I'm always suspicious of the tech expert wearing an expensive suit.
Hmm; this sounds like an "ask slashdot" topic. What do people which expands their capacity? E.g., I found a tremendous benefit in moving my lifecycle rides from the gym after work to my own house before taking my morning shower. It takes less time, but I'm energized during those unholy pre-noon hours.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
results might give a lazy journalist something to talk about, but this type scheme tells you nothing about a person ( other that how they test out in Myers-Briggs ). Real empirical studies of behavior or personality would be more interesting that this pseudo-scientific gibberish.
2 guys and I stayed at the office the whole weekend last week. We worked about 12 hours each day, with 4 hours of "rejuvination" ( quake3arena, jolt cola, and cluck-u/wendy's ). We even invited friends to "hang out" at the office. ( we told them was we needed a little companionship, what we really need was frag fodder ). You just get in a groove. And if you can't, you drink more jolt!
Long live Jolt cola!!
Th
I sit in an office all day that is lit by flourescent lights and I find it very draining. I get more tired sitting at work for 8 hours than I do sitting at home doing similar tasks for 10-12. In addition, the darkness helps me to concentrate. By limitinng my field of vision to only the glow of my monitor, my mind is freed of the urge to look around at things in the room. Another thing that helps, which isn't mentioned in the article, is music. I don't know if you noticed or not, but music will often help you to concentrate. This is because your mind is focused, and it also filters out some background noise. By filtering that out you have, and pardon the pun, more system resources to accomplish the task at hand.
To be perfectly honest, I drink more caffeine in my well lit work environment than I do in darkness at home.
Just for an experiment, try this. Get some good music playing (trancy techno preferred), either from your stereo or from your computer, whichever has better sound, and get that room as dark as you can. If you can lock people out of the room, DO IT!! This will add to your ability to focus. Now, go to work on your favorite app/programming language. Work for a couple of hours and then look at how much you have accomplished. Compare this to one of your normal sessions on the computer. I think that you will find that you got a lot more done in the dark environment. This has proven true consistently for me and I don't see why it wouldn't for you.
-----
If you play with the on-line version consider taking it multiple times. My type changed before and after coding. This got me interested in why it did and by playing with the back button, changing a few answers, and resubmitting it is possible to create a set to produce any of the 16 types.
Banfield
it wasn't written for gamasutra.
The sidebar says
This article is an excerpt
from After the Gold
Rush, published by
Microsoft Press.
I guess they figured out a way to make ppl
read this drivel without buying the dead tree
thing.
I'm sure there are plenty of artists, writers, composers, architects, EverQuest players, etc etc, that follow the so-called "geek behaviour" pattern of staying up late and neglecting their body. In the midst of hard core coding, a body is nothing more to a coder than a pair of hands, eyes, and a brain. I think any creative process can inspire this obsession. I bet Leonardo da Vinci just reeked some of the time; yet because of his seclusion and isolation with his work, history now remembers him as one of the most well-rounded and brilliant minds ever to climb out of the primordial stew.
As for social skills, of COURSE the shy and introverted turn to computers. Computers don't lie, cheat, betray, steal, or hurt people (and those were just my girlfriends!) Also now with the internet, you can reach out around the world and meet other people with similar interests. Social interaction is much easier behind the veil of the printed word, when all of a sudden, socially awkward, speed-demon typists can be the most talkative person in a chat room!
As for myself, I can't stand Mountain Dew, and am only modestly fond of Jolt. I used to code until 8 in the morning and wake up late afternoon. I live on Coke, Pizza Pockets and other microwave food. I don't get out much but I DO get out. A social life takes work and persistence, like most rewarding things in life.
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
No-one gets paid to write software. You get paid because you have a knowledge base about computer science that you can offer in addition to some programming on the side. There are simply too many programmers, it's too easy to program, and you can't put a market value on something which costs nothing to distribute.
Of course, the "pathetic nerd" stereotype of coders is not true in all cases. But, "pathetic nerds" are overrepresented in coding jobs. For the sake of discussion let's assume that the "pathetic nerd" represents 1% of the general population. If the "coding population" is 5% "pathetic nerds" then that population will be stereotyped as "a bunch of pathetic nerds."
For example, some "safe" stereotypes:
ugly-American
red-headed Irishman
unethical politician
In all seriousness:
so I became a coder
happy cubicle
oh no, a round peg
push, cut, beat, hammer, pull, wedge
we will make him fit
No Zen is good zen
I studied computer science in college because I've always been very into computers, but I never felt the major was right for me. I just don't fit the mold. I also can't concentrate for long amounts of time like the people described in the article can. As it is, I'm still not sure what I want to do/should be doing career-wise.
Maybe we should talk about a 'stereotypical businessman/salesman/entrepreneur'. This middle-aged man spends 12-16 hours a day in meetings or with his ear glued to a cell-phone, trying to coax other people to do his bidding, using whichever 8 steps he read about in the most recent self-help book. His diet consists mainly of business lunches, and he always wears a tourniquet around his neck.
I understand that someplace like Amazon loses money if their servers go down for 30 seconds at 3 am. So I'm sure they have a lot of people on staff to handle that. But what about the sysadmin for a small office who is forced to carry a pager? Managers see that big companies have staff on call and press the same thing on everyone. And somehow they convince the geeks that pagers and cell phones are status symbols.
It just so happens, Mr. Smarty-Pants, that I know plenty of fully competent programmers who subsist on Ho-Hos.
Geeks are a diverse lot, and their choice of junk food should be left up to the individual as a lifestyle choice, not dictated to them by some nebulous set of "community standards." Sheesh, it's not as if they wanted to wear a Microsoft t-shirt or perform some other immoral act.
And the brethren went away edified.
What you say is very true. I am not a social butterfly and was teased and hazed for years because I wasn't part of the "hivemind" and all the so called "teachers" knew and did nothing. I can speak from experience when you say that the "warmth is beaten out of them". As of now I am extremely logical (or cold by the usual standards) and generally shy in nature. I don't give a shit about sweaty people wrestling over a ball and making sure that my clothes match. I think what I want and do what I want.
The only upside is that it opens your eyes to the pathetic truth of human existance. Animals are higher evolved in my opinion.
- You are so cool.
AC's wouldn't know "cool" if the Platonic Form of "cool" materialized in their underwear, crawled up their ass and kicked them in the head.Well, I have found a satisfactory definition of "geek" that applies not only to software people. When someone asks aloud "Who cares!", the geek is the one in the back of the room who raises his hand.
And quite frankly, I find the one who *doesn't* care really disturbing. It is as if nothing is important than their own bailiwick, or worse, their pesky social life. The difference is that caring about computers doesn't seem fun until you are *into* it. While everyone likes the life of the party or the class clown. While I have nnothing against the "popular" people as long as they don't treat me derogatorily for caring. Even worse are the many wannabees who do nothing more than *trying* to be like the popular ones.
I would really like to make a statement to the remaining high schoolers reading this (which I am one). If you spend an abnormal amount of time at the computer... don't give it up or lie about it for anything. I know there is a lot of pressure to comform but its not worth it. In fact, pretending to be something you aren't makes the rest of us look back.
We may be geeks, we may be obsessed, but we are not wannabees. A wannabee is the saddest type of human being.
Oh, and one more thing. Be secure about yourself. It takes a while but beleive me, it is well worth it.
... where do the introverted stereotypical coders go after they burn out?
I wonder, because that's where I'm at. I fit the stereotype discussed in the article pretty well (although I'm an INTP type). I code at work pretty well... except lately where they've got me doing report after report after report... and now writing specs for the reports. I get paid well but the money is mostly all gone... spent on too much Mountain Dew and anime tapes -- things I do during the non-work hours to fill the time until I can fall unconscious again. Then I drag myself to work and do it again. Being the introvert I have few friends and little desire to make any... my job skills are rotting away at this job but I don't much care anymore... I'm wondering if I'm burned out, depressed, or something else.
Maybe I've just read too much slashdot.... oh well if there was any thought in there worthwhile I buried it in whining... 'bout time to eat a bullet or something.
Nevermind. Would have made a lousy 'Ask Slashdot' anyway.
Hey, if a guy looks like Mr. Universe, he doesn't have to know any slick lines to make chicks swoon.
;), is what I look for. I also want it to be with someone that is mutually attractive.
(But if he doesn't he should have the sense to keep his mouth shut lest he frighten them off.)
Of course, I doubt anyone could code a clean duplicate of Netscape version >1.1 from scratch within a 24 hour period. Bodybuilder or not.
>;)
Personally, I don't want a "relationship" with a chick that lets the hunk-factor dominate her decisions in where she's going to sleep that night.
A meaningful relationship with someone that that shares my common interests, even if she can code my pants off (pardon the pun...ok, don't
Of course, my failure on this quest falls primarily on my shoulders. I am incredibly shy around people. ESPECIALLY women I find physically attractive...this little quirk in my personality has and is my demise in this area.
Can I communicate? I like to think I can. I talk to Nz and Greyhaunt quite often and I've talked a little bit with Corrinne as well. What can I say? We share an interest in physics/mathematics/CS *and* Omaha steaks...oops, there I go again saying something dumb...*sigh* oh well...
Catch is: its all been via e-mail. There is a level of comfort there, a mask that I can hide behind.
Why do I find such an "unhealthy" comfort in that mask? I don't know. Perhaps its all the negative reinforcement while in grades K-12 of me being ugly, unattractive, not accepted. Perhaps growing up having been given the nicknames "Pee" and "P-land" by your peers didn't help. Could be partly genetic too. My mother is a fairly quiet person. Great speaker, but quiet. For some reason, my mother's claims that I was a beautiful person didn't seem to hold water compared to the old addage, "A face only a mother could love," and opinions of my peers. I can list my teacher's names from K-6th grade with ease. Why? They were the best friends I had each year.
Am I a geek? I don't know. I started programming on an Apple][ when I was 12. I graduated from college with degrees in Physics, Math, and Computer Science(emp. in Comp. Graphics) by the time I was 22 simply because I felt I had nothing better to do than to learn. College introduced me to role-playing, Star Trek, and TBS Bond Marathons. (Dad wouldn't allow tv at home.) The most important thing I got was a relatively close network of good friends. I even had a relationship with a girl! 4.5 years later I found myself disillusioned from my friends, my family and myself. We're still friends but we really didn't like each other for the right reasons. (She was the first real woman to seem to take an interest with me. No one's perfect, especially not me.)
Am I a jock? Hmm, nothing outstanding, IMO. I'm a little like Al Bundy in that respect. My athletic highlight was running a 5:00 mile when I was 13. By the time I turned 14 I gained about 2 inches and 20 pounds. That 20 turned into 40 by graduation and I put an additional 70 on top of that since. My chances of being exceptional at it are dead. I do it for fun/exercise now. Between the weight and the asthma I developed, it feels as if my lungs are getting ripped out if I push a pace any faster than 7 minutes...I push it sometimes but less and less as time passes.
Do I fit within the stereotypes of geekdom? Yes and no. I'm a relatively nonobvious person. I've found that I don't really stand out from any crowd but I don't fit in with any of them either. You could pass me on the street and not give me a second thought. I guess that's my hidden talent. I'm adept at blending in and going unnoticed. Or at least, that's how it seems.
>;)
-Vel
One thing I've witnessed with grim regularity, is the exploitation of nerds' work ethic. All those long hours are part of your life, what's your life worth to you? If you have some sort of ownership over what you code (either through equity, or GPL or something)and "coding is life," then fine. Too often, geeks slave away for some kind of "geek pride," while all they are really doing is making the guys with founder-stock insanely rich.
Geeks Unite!
On the other hand, it may not mean that much; I'm working on my non-CS degree at Colorado School of Mines right now and last semester the school paper ran a comparison of Mines students' MBTIs against the "general population" and it shows that all us engineer wannabes (of which >5% are pursuing a CS degree) are twice as likely to be ISTJs or five times as likely to be INTJs. In other words, the MBTI is revealing geekness, not necessarily computer geekness...
"I'm a scientist! I don't think, I observe!" - Dr. Clayton Forrester
I fit the profile pretty good except that I like Chocodiles and Mt. Dew.
A decent Network is finally here.
I agree that the greatest coders are often those who diversify the most. Take John Carmack, for example; a casual read of his .plan files will show you that he knows way more than is necessary to build a game engine.
But JC isn't a great games coder because he knows so many other things; he is great because he _started young_. Someone who spends an hour a day coding for 10 years will know more than someone who codes 10 hours a day for 1 year. So, other knowledge is not the cause of greatness but an effect. That's why the guy who knows everything will often, in the long run, beat out the focused type.
Broccolist
I recently did some consulting for a security startup in Northern Virgina. We had some press folx come to take pictures for a Washington DC magazine.
Since the developers all looked so normal, they had one guy put on some company-logo "croakies" (those things on your glasses to keep them on your head) and they planted some Cheese Doodles and Mountain Dew next to his PC when they took his picture.
This way, they could perpetuate the caffeine and junk food pounding stereotype. No wonder there aren't very many Computer Science graduates in this country!
- Tom "now I've got to go drink some Jolt and eat some chocolate" McKearney
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
...anyone care to finish this one off?
--
Xenu loves you!
The article suggests that great/good programmers/designers are capable of approaching problems/solutions from different angles.
... then go back, and behold the solution is smack-dab right there in front of my forehead.
It has been my experience that focus completely upon a single idea to the exclusion of all else tends to limit my problem solving ability. When I'm stuck, I've found the best way to get unstuck is to do something else for a while: sleep, excersize, sex
:-)
void recursion (void)
{
recursion();
}
while(1) printf ("infinite loop");
if (true) printf ("Stupid sig quote");
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
Complain all you want, there is such a strong subculture of people obsessed with technology, gadgets, and the 'future' it blinds them from enjoying the present real world.
/. techies give a shit about IPOs and get quick fast schemes, which puts them on the lowest rung of the ladder called 'capitalist greed.' The real 'techies' are scientists working for a better tomarrow through green solutions and medical technology, not some zit-faced 17 year old developing faster ways of downloading .gifs of Sarah Michelle Geller and hoping for a cushy corporate job or praying to be a CEO.
From what I can tell many techies are disillusioned with the present world and dream up fantasies of a new and improved future which of course is always BS. The constant production new useless crap (look at your average Sharper Image catalog for great example) and throw away lifestyles only help the future become that much more crappy and inhospitable.
Give it up, get your head off the screen or the latest SF book and *gasp* enjoy the few parts of life that are still enjoyable. Nothing forces techies to be anti-social but their own attitudes towards others and the typical futurist solutions to life's problems are fiction, and those who truly believe them define pathetic.
In the end
Yes, people who are driven passionatly are usually an anti-social lot but the slashdot consesus is driven for useless consumerist crap with the possible exception of Linux, which will never come close to MS's home market share. But as a coder's OS plaything its perfect and might have the fastest Sarah Michelle Geller download times in the world. Congrats.
(Disclaimer: This post is entirely IMHO...)
As I see it, while by no means is the average programmer neccessarily a white male junkfood-addicted recluse, there are certain trends a programmer tends towards, because of the mindset involved in programming:
Programming encourages logical, structured thinking. If you weren't thinking this way to start, odds are you are after years of programming, because good programming requires it.
The logical train of thought tends to spill over to the rest of your life. You start to carefully consider political candidites, rather then voting a party ticket, (and likely decide not to vote in disgust, or go third party). Nitpicking becomes a way of life, after constant exposure to a compiler that throws a fit over a misplaced semicolon (or similar events).
More generally, you tend to apply logic to all of your decisions to a certain extent. I'm not neccessary saying all programmers will be Mr. Spock-like. On the contrary, debugging requires quite a bit of your intuitive side. Thus, if programmers are taking after Spock, it is more the Spock of the later movies, who was willing to swear if the situation warrented it, and seemed to take his emotions and intuition into account, while logic prevailed...
A corrillary of this would be that most programmers, having observed a lack of logic or structure in most other peoples decisions, tend to become more of an individualist, and avoid most popular(or mainstream) trends, and any attempt to classify them in a group (and are even now trying to come up with rebuttals to this post... )
In religious areas, programmers will likely highly analyse it, and either: reject all religion in disgust (atheism), decide that with a lack of data, no decision can be made on the whole issue (agnostism), or opt for a non-mainstream religion (paganism, for example.) Some will stay Christian, but if you ask them why, they will generally have a quite well-thought out reason.
Because of the nature of programming tending towards hours of frustration, with one brief moment of enlightenment that makes it all worthwhile, programmers tend towards other, similar pursuits: adventure games, logic puzzles of all types, zen and other mind disciplines, and martial arts. This combined with the individualism tends towards very Thoreau-like attitudes...
A lot of this really depends which areas of a programmers life the discipine tends to spill over to, of course. In other areas, there is a tendency to minimise neccessary thinking, esp. in areas of fashion & eating habits...
As such, the situation tends to be that the extremes and the norms reverse when applied to us...
Only my opinion, of course, but I and other programmers I've known seem to bear it out...
--Arcum
i've seen it happen a lot. i mean, A LOT. with myself, if i hadn't enjoyed doing various sports so much (badly, i might add!) i might have also become like the 'social-skill-less' people that are being described. (although i think they're much less prevalent than is generally supposed.)
to me, though, the best thing is that it really doesn't matter what 'the world' thinks about one's level of social skills. sure, it may hurt one's opportunities for advancement in a corporation or academia. but in the end, does that really MATTER? i don't think so. i think there are much more important things to think about in life: love, spiritual things, getting satisfaction out of one's job, family, etc. etc. the list goes on!
as far as i'm concerned, i don't really care where i end up working as long as three conditions are satisfied:
1) i'm working hard at a job that suits my skills
2) i have a family that i love, and that loves me, and
3) i have food on the plate.
my personal advice to the guy or gal who thinks he's/she's socially inept (if anyone cares):
don't worry about it. think about people who are mentally retarded. now THEY have a worse time than just about anyone who was born with a 'normal' brain.
i'm done now.
jon
-- http://www.cerastes.org
Well, i don't fit the profile ( I play f-ball, can't eat pizza cuz im lactose intolerant) but still i learned something. Don't know why im writing this, 'cept im trying to get as many posts as jd (whoever he is).
Well, you are not really a programmer, therefore you do not qualify.
IT does not apply.
Well, I really dont buy into the stereotype. Sure I code but the reason why I coded until 10 in the morning during University is that I was always out partying, doing acid, shrooms, not going to classes, and picking up chicks. Ofcourse you are going to code for 18 hours when you leave the project until the last minute. and hey there are cool geeks and loser geeks. Cool geeks are tech savvy but have the suave attitude. They also know how to document their shit. Plus you gotta have a couple of hoots off yer bong once in a while to really enjoy the full effect of what you are doing. And hey in this huge corp I am working for now, I got top performer rating two years in a row. Doesnt hurt they dont know what I am really about. Its fun, try it. But anyways, sure there are a lot of nerds, but there are also a vast population that dont fit the bullshit. Fuck the norm. Its better to be a geek than to be some shithead accountant, car salesman, Gap clerk, etc.. Plus, what job allows you the flexibility to get up at 11:00, noon, 1PM, or whenever, have a nice omelet with sausages, show up at work and dont have to put up with fuckhead whining customers. Fuck that, this is the show. Anonymous Pothead coder.
It is only in big companies that deadweight gets promoted to management.
Finally, regarding communication skills -- I have noticed that the ability to communicate technical concepts in a clear, concise, easy-to-understand manner is quite helpful for advancing one's career. For example, it usually gets you placed in charge of the design document for the project -- meaning that you often get to do more of the design work than the "formal" project designer does, meaning you get promoted to project lead on your own project quite rapidly. The ability to get along with other people is also helpful -- there's some people who are brilliant but they are, frankly, total jerks, they don't listen, they're always negative, they have no communications skills, etc. But it's all a matter of knowing how to use these people, alas.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Apart from the fact I have an aversion to caffeine and have to avoid it, that the only thing you'll find me doing at 2am is sleeping, that my programming tends to work best between about 8am and 3pm, that I'm single purely because past relationships have been extremely bad (it's cheaper and less hassle to be single *grin*), that I have a pretty good social life otherwise, that I have no idea what a Twinkie is (I presume it's some American sweet/candy), that I'm equally as geeky about Art (painting especially), the fact I took a similar test to the one described and no bias between one extreme or the other for each attribute could be found, the stereotype is fairly close... unfortunately, it doesn't appear to fit any of my fellow programmers in the office - the only time they work in the dark is for games of Quake :-)
Remember, the first quote was the stereotypical geek - it is the way geeks are normally thought of.
The latter half of the article defines, according to personality tests, what the majority of geeks are like, but not all. I remember taking one of those tests and coming out as INTJ, with S only 2 points behind N (ie. INTJ with very strong S). As soon as the woman who did the test saw the result, she asked me if I was involved with computers.
I would agree with the results found on the test in the article - I know a lot of computer oriented people who would fall into that particular personality bracket, and a few who definately don't.
Remember, though, that the article says that about 40% fall into that category. That's 60% that don't...!
T.
Posted by cookieman.k:
The stereotype apply to me very correctly but I think that if I would develop the same logical skills in manny other tech areas if I were'nt a coder. That is nobody is born nerd but that cannot be teached if you don't have a basic couriosity on wich the logic skills can be grown. Great article ! Just my twocents...
Here is how I have overcome my barriers to social interaction:
a) Start with IRC or other online chat. Find people who have similar interests.
b) Once you have gained the ability to easily converse online, look at what had stopped you from social interaction in person in the past. I'm not saying completely change yourself to the likeness of current styles, but just be aware of how 'stupid' you may look. It doesn't take much effort or money to make yourself acceptably presentable. Since I was very poor when young, I had to wear 4 or 5 year old clothes that were really undersized. I was taunted and made fun of.
c) Delete stupid quirks from your personality that you can do without. I had a stupid habit of moving my eyebrow or crunching my face together when someone said something I thought was stupid (which was a lot). I also had a very stupid haircut. It's amazing how a good haircut can make you look so much better. I was never looked at before by women, and after flipping through GQ at a book store, I went and got a decent haircut and people were telling me how good I looked for weeks.
d) Be brave. As well as being a complete dork, I also had minor mental illness. I had developed an illness where I was paranoid and thought that people could hear what I was thinking. I cured this by realizing that I didn't care what other people thought. I was also afraid of open spaces with lots of people, but university cured that.
e) My other problem was the realization that other people were not better than me. Putting myself on a similar level with everyone I met, meant I wasn't afraid to speak to them, no matter how intelligent, good looking, or level on the social ladder. Of course, this gets me in trouble with my employers a lot, but they have also developed respect in my decisions because I speak out more often.
In other words, just delete all the qualities that cause people to immediately believe that you are a dork because of qualities presented in your first impression. I'm not saying be like everyone else; I'm just saying ease them into it. Long time friends can more easily take my paranoid delusions and weird physical gestures than people I've met in a bar or on the street..
Programming isn't like flying a plane. When flying a plane, you have to intuitively know the correct response at any one moment, to be able to handle the situation as it arises; being able to think nonlinearly, to make logical leaps and come up with novel solutions isn't very important. However, if you approach programming from the same point of view, your code is going to be very ordinary and mediocre. To be a good programmer involves the ability to think nonlinearly and creatively.
In religious areas, programmers will likely highly analyse it, and either: reject all
religion in disgust (atheism), decide that with a lack of data, no decision can be made
on the whole issue (agnostism), or opt for a non-mainstream religion (paganism, for
example.) Some will stay Christian, but if you ask them why, they will generally have
a quite well-thought out reason.
The Christian geeks I know of tend to also be theology geeks, who rather than accept a prepackaged Christianity, delve into all manner of arcane theological arguments.
This could be a universal phenomenon concerning religious geeks tending to be more into the arcana and metaphysics of their religions. I've encountered a number of Jewish programmers who were really into the Cabbala, for example.
- I *have* seen the unshowered, bad b.o. geek. Many of them in my faculty here at the university. They do exist.
- I suppose you could once call me the geek who had the "cruel dispassionate world" beat the happiness out of him. One day, I think I just switched gears: I'm going to make myself happy and find out what makes other people happy, and I'm just going to ignore those who insist on being mean-spirited. Here's what I discovered (ymmv):
- The world isn't in general hateful & cruel. It just happens that people in Grade 8 are.
- Most people want to be loved and appreciated. If you take the time to show them in a non-fake way that you do appreciate them, you've solved 1/2 of the "social skills" problem.
- The other half of the problem is the "shyness" hump, which is a problem I still sometimes have to deal with myself. I haven't found a foolproof solution to this other than to say, flip a switch on yourself that says "I am who I am, and I want to meet people", and just find ways to strike up conversation. Most people are about as nervous as you are, they just have had more experience in breaking out of it.
- It's always good to be yourself & not care about what people think about you, but the final key to social skills is: look & listen for feedback about what in your personality or your communication is irritating or rubbing people the wrong way. Then really -analyze- why that may be - or even better, ask people. The only way you can grow is by making mistakes in this way.
this is my opinion anyway, for what its worth
-Stu