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Building Social Skills in Gifted Youths?
UNOStudent asks: "I'm currently a Biotech undergrad at the University of Nebraska-Omaha and have spent the past several semesters mentoring gifted youngsters and have been presented with a challenge this semester. My student is unbelievably smart, however has very limited social skills, is unable to cooperate with peers, doesn't understand why they make fun of his uncombed hair, etc. Since many of us may have grown up in a similar circumstance, I'm looking for suggestions from my fellow geeks on ideas for how to challenge him mentally, while building essential social skills." How would you build social skills in someone more concerned with math, science and computers?
Then he wont need social skills - he can kick the bully's asses and get back to doing what he loves.
There'll be time for girlfriends later (when he's rich), and who the hell said we all *have* to be open, loving marketing types anyway?
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power, just because some watery tart threw a sword at you
'Nuff said
Incoming a million "This is slashdot, what's a social skill" jokes....
asking slashdot on social skill questions is like asking a factory worker which distribution of Linux is better.
This is a joke, laugh.
Bored? Why not join a decent mess
You need incentinves. Simply explain that better social skills lead to more sex.
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
Hire him a hooker at his young age.
1 - Keep them away from bullies and small minded people who won't understand or accept them.
2 - Once they're older, teach them how to deal with such people in an assertive manner that will be effective in defeating and suppressing anti-intellectuals.
3 - Get them laid early in life.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Divide up the project so that he only has a piece of the puzzle and will fail unless he is able to interact with the other team members to get it to work. Also play lots of games where social interaction is involved to solve the problem, human knots, simple ball games, you know those group building games we all hate.
Visit BobtheKing.com it's perhaps the best thing I've ever made to waste your time with.
This did wonders for my social skills.
Get him into dungeons and dragons. Find a group at a local shop or a campus club that will allow him to join as a newbie.
Most experienced DM's enjoy seeing new players grown and mature while learning and playing the game.
I think that people tend to either develop those skills on their own because they realize that they're not really fitting and they want to, or they never do and they have very few friends. I don't think they'd be very receptive, especially if they're teens.
Go outside.
-- paper
you can teach him what to do in society...
Get him a job dealing with people, and offer some sort of deal for him to get new tech toys to play with as a result. I was once much the same way but after working with people, and being able to reap the rewards, I am now a lot more functional in public than my peers. I've come so far as to hold a fairly decent sales job for my age and location, where I deal face to face with people constantly. Just like getting over your fears of anything else, confrontation is the easiest way to solve the problem. Granted, your student isn't AFRAID of social situations exactly, but I think more interaction would have the desired results.
"He does fit the profile perfectly. He's intelligent, but an under-achiever; alienated from his parents; has few friends. Classic case for recruitment by the Soviets."
There needs to be incentive. If it isn't worth his while, he won't bother. Also, for many, math and science are far more interesting and exciting than people. That's why we're on this page, isn't it?
I mean it. Tell him he might have to wind up running human emotions under emulation if necessary.
Not knowing what the hell is wrong with him will stress him a lot more than having something, anything, he can deal with.
Good luck with this.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
There's the natural course of geek development and we should mess with it as little as possible.
New young geeks should have to wait for beer to develop social skills just like we did.
Comic Book Guy : Someone has mixed an "Amazing Spiderman" in with the "Peter Parker - The Spectacular Spiderman" series. This will not stand.
Woman: Pardon me, but I wish to tender a serious cash offer for this stack of water damaged Little Lulus.
CBG: Huh, "A" that is not water, it is Diet Mr. Pib, and "B" I... (CBG turns to look at the woman) Ohh... Err... Tell me, how do you feel about 45 year old virgins who still live with their parents?
Woman: Comb the Sweet Tarts out of your beard and you're on.
CBG: Don't try to change me baby.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
of course. And the poster above is right about D&D or other role playing games. Heck, there were THOUSANDS of people to socialize with at GenCon!
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Give the kid a copy of "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman."
He comes across as an arrogant bastard, but I sure did enjoy the chapter about the intellectual challenge presented by learning how to pick up chicks.
N.b.: Feynman's technique was probably valid in the 50s, and is definitely not useful now. The valuable part is getting this kid to treat "learning social skills" as an intellectual exercise.
I.e., what makes these stupid apes TICK?
Get them some softcore porn, get them interested in the opposite sex. Then talk to them about sex, tell them your first time was when you were about their age, they'll realize that even their loser parents could get their grove on with a little help and they'll start to build social skills for the most important thing in life, getting ass.
Next take him to the strip club to show him whats hes missing, follow that up with a trip to your local trendy clothing store.
Finally sign him up for a sport like football, baseball, or soccer, and have him start lifting weights. The macho social interaction will do him good plus he will probably get laid. Once a nerd gets taste of a women he forgets about chess clubs and linux.
Have him go and fix the other kids computers, so then they realise he's good for something while challenging him with day to day tasks. Sure he'll be being used, but atleast he'll get some interaction -- and he'll feel wanted!
Tell him he's just fine the way he is and that the rest of the students will be working for him in 15 years. Those of us on Slashdot with jobs realize that it's more important to be comfortable as yourself than meet someone else's perception of who we should be. In fact, it also works for dating...confidence in yourself is a bigger turn on than a flashy car, big wallet, or "social skills". So, leave the kid alone you schmuck...stop pushing your skewed world view on this poor impressionable youngster.
No... seriously... there are girls that find gifted guys a REAL TURN on. The best girls are able to look beyond such things... at least for a little while.
She'll say at first that she wouldn't want to change a thing... but she'll either change his ways (taste in clothes, hair, etc...) or he'll want to do it himself.
Try it out... it'll work!!
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
I had absolutely no social skills until way past high school and I'm still lacking in that area. What changed? Nothing really. I'm still very much as I was in high school except that in college I didn't have to associate with folks who mocked me for my haircuts or bullied me because they could (I was the smallest kid in high school until my senior year).
In college I found people with my interests (math, computers, English, guitar, rpgs, chess). This did more for my social life than anything else.
Get him interested in the booty and he'll clean up his act...or become a mass murderer.
Step One: Comb Hair
Acting lessons, especially improvisation (comedy or drama).
Acting teaches how to communicate intentions and how to show interest when listening.
Acting can also provide a second social network (with people just as interested in role playing as you, except without silly costumes), with few social interconnections to the tech social networks (so you get to be a social hub.)
Have him play a team sport! Get him outside and away from the text books for a change.
Mod point free since 2001
Being a genius is one thing and it can get you ahead in life, but it's nothing if you can't deal with people (look at Jobs and the Woz, for example).
Even in modern programming, no one man can tackle enormous projects - we break things into functions and into parts and put them together.
Being ethnically different, "smart" (so said my K-12 schools, but college makes me doubt it), and by nature and culture alternately shy and arrogant, I've had to work to A) get to know people and B) work with them instead of going off on my own.
I say you give him group assignments where he has to work with other people (programming seperate functions in a larger program). Also, for kids, the great equalizer is video games - I've been playing Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for a while and that game really emphasizes team work and people talking together.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
...because ultimately it's up to him to do the learning. Unless he's asking you for help (which I doubt; this isn't an episode of "Saved by the bell") he's going to have to figure it out for himself, which includes him figuring out that there's something to figure out in the first place.
:)
Ultimately, the motivator for him to learn social skills will be other kids interacting with him in a positive way, and you can't force that. What you CAN do, however, is get him in social situations where his brains will be considered an asset.
For instance, set up class lab activities that require teams of four, and make sure these activities require serious brains to complete. Sometimes, he should be in charge of picking people for his team; sometimes he shouldn't. Does this mean he might get chosen last? Sure, until a lazy and popular kid decides it's better to have this smart kid doing his work for him. Once your smart kid is selected by the popular kid, and they get an 'A' AND get done early because of it, he'll be considered an asset.
The flipside to that, of course, is that the other kids will initially be using him. The thing is, learing that you're being used and learning how to deal with it is as important a social skill as any other, so while it's painful in the short term it's beneficial in the long term.
Also, you'll be giving popular and lazy kids a reason to view him in a more positive light, which is a good lesson for them.
See if you can get him or her to join a group outdoors activity like camping. Not necessarily something as formal as scouting. In fact, the less formal, the better.
Nature offers some fun science and a chance to develop other areas of interest. Being a part of a camping group is a good way to learn to interact, because everyone has a responsibility (get water, collect wood, etc.) and kids learn their individual responsibilities contribute to the groups well-being. Good adult guidance is a must.
Worked great for the English as a Second Language class that joined my high school outings. And most of them came to the midwest from much warmer climes.
1. Talk to girls
2. Show off with some math.
3. ??? (chloroform?)
4. Profit!!!!
On a serious note, I think it's important to make sure they realize the value of relationships (of all kinds). I know people that have felt and I have certainly felt myself at times that the world is hopeless and friends aren't worth having, but the truth is, it's always a good thing. Whether you feel you may need help or not, it's always good to have somebody to turn to and sometimes you need a boost to get ahead in this world.
In summary, it's not always that they aren't able to interact socially, but that they don't feel the need to.
webpage
i dont care how many spoiled egotistical american brats you feel are right to raise, and army of team oriented indians,chinese,germans,koreans or japanese will always do better.
americans are impatient and mainly wrong in the way they act.
Why don't you send a message to the people on the top of this list. Apparently everyone here loves 'em. :)
She is so far ahead of children her age that she can't connect with them. If she withdraws, she will only find solitude but will never learn to interact.
And it rendered on, until the end of its days.
The best way to build social skills is to get them involved in a group of people who actually -care- for them as a friend. The rest is easy.
(sad story, warning)
When I was a kid, I was the fat, alkward kid who nobody liked. I was never able to get over my alkwardness until I found a friend, Melissa (Mel) who accepted me as I was.
Most of the time, these "socially enept" people are only socially enept because society has turned them away.
If you want these people to be socially acceptable, try accepting them first.
Not that I'm cool or anything now, but I do have friends, people who I care about and care about me. Popularity isn't everything. Friendship is. Thank God for friends.
Jay | http://oldos.org
Honestly, the best thing to do is wait until high school and then get the youngster into smoking pot. Nothing relieves tensions and motivates social interaction, especially among the gifted, like a good old fashioned bong hit.
-B
Blake
There is an article , The Outsiders, that explores the social adjustment of extremely intelligent people. I'm not sure that it will provide the answers you're seeking, but it gives some insight into the nature of the problem.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Social interaction is very similar to knowing a foreign language, reading, etc. If you don't start early in life, it become increasingly difficult later once you want to pick it up. The fact of the matter is that there are small minded people everywhere and it is an essential part of social interaction. Not knowing how to deal with such people at an early age will tend to make a person antisocial as they grow up.
Remember, if they were like everyone else they wouldn't be gifted.
Recalling from personal experience, I am by most definitions a dork and have been one since I picked up my first book in life.
As a general rule I was more inclined to read books than socialize granted that was all I knew. Everyone would want to talk about the latest fad or trend and I just simply was never interested. Whenever company was over, I'd just simply ignore all that and go to my room and read. I had few friends in my life, mostly those I could relate to. Aside from the occasional bully, I was happy socially.
However my stepmom couldn't stand that being a social giant. I was to relate to everyone and anyone. She would constantly drag me out of my room and try and get me to talk to people. I never did out of spite, mostly just clamming up or worse being nasty to anybody she tried, until I could get back to my book (and later computer games). I was not a pleasant conversationalist when forced like that. Therefore I question the value of corrective action against a socially dis-inclined person.
For what it's worth tho, I'd like to think I turned out normal. I'm the first of my brothers to get married (well in 2 weeks anyways). Generally people say I relate well to others. However you generally find me talking to people I can relate with intellectually rather than people who are more inclined to talk about the latest "survivor" episode or some other gunk (I didn't even watch the Super Bowl!). However I can BS my way through anything if needed, for exapmle a job interview or performance review, etc.
Your turn to rant!
...in bed
Queer Eye for the Geeky Guy
The lesson is that social interaction doesn't require a major breakthrough. Slowly build up your confidence and you'll be amazed at the results which follow.
I doubt the idea of having social skills is new to him. He is who he is, and if you want him to be somebody else maybe you're the one who should change.
send individual to tech schools; we have LOTS of people that don't comb hair or talk.
until a female showed intrest in me :) on went the deoderant and since i wasnt gonna comb the hair i lopped it off!
-- botsex is {grep;touch;strip;unzip;head;mount}
Kids are great at negotiating, how about a drill that makes them negotiate for something they want? I try and dupe my little cousins all the time to teach them not to get ripped off... and let me tell you, after a few times, they cried foul and got the point.
it'll do wonders for his social skills, manners and skin. Include an intellectual challenge such as hacking the deep fryer or creating a model of a protein from onion rings.
That's kind of unrealistic advice. I don't think it's possible to keep away bullies. Furthermore I've found it's better to deal w/ them at a younger age rather than suffering in jr. high. Get them laid early in life? What kind of advice is that? They can barely talk to girls as it is, why force the pressures of sex on them at such a young age? Remember you must walk before you can run!
What I saw missing from my geeky friend's social skill set was empathy. They knew they were different and smarter than the rest, and they liked being smarter. Made them cocky, and they looked down upon the rest. The more they were teased, the more they withdrew, and the more they looked down on their tormentors. So how does empathy help? Look, these are smart kids and they can be reasoned with that they are going to have to spend a lifetime among people not as smart as they are. There is no getting around that unless you become a near hermit. So wouldn't it be smart to try to see themselves as others see them?
Yeah, who cares if you comb your hair anyway? Aren't there more important things in life, and besides people shouldn't judge me by my outer appearance! True, all true. But you know what? They do and they will. So does it make a difference whether or not your hair is combed? If no one cares, no. If people do care, yeah, it causes hassles for you that can so easily be avoided by a 30-second brush with a comb. Not hard, appeases the ignorant. Comes in handy if you ever have a job interview (and you will want one someday, won't you?).
Empathy allows you to think through the other person's eyes. Yeah, they aren't as smart as you, but they can't fully help that (biology and all that) and yet they are still humans with as much right toward dignity and respect as you would want for yourself. Apperances and actions shouldn't matter in a perfect world where intellect was all that counted, but we don't live in that world. We do have to interact with people who judge us for all the wrong reasons. Isn't it smart to spend just a minimal amount of effort to smooth our way in life? If you are perceived as a jerk by others, no matter how invalid the reason may be, it will cause friction in your life.
The smart person sees that friction coming and heads it off with a few simple social tricks that fool the ignorant. It's great as a party trick too!
"doesn't understand why they make fun of his uncombed hair"
Seems to me there's nothing to understand here. You comb your hair from now on. What's the problem? Or just clip it all off. Don't tell me that someone who doesn't care if his hair is uncombed is gonna care about having a buzz cut?
Get the kid off junk food, and eating fruits, vegetables, decent meals, (not decent *males*, mkay) and his brain will start working properly.
I found I was a pretty tough guy to get along with until I started noticing that different foods left me in different moods.
Have not the parents exploit the gift their child has and put him in 'special schools'.
What worked for me? 1)Get him to shave his head. That's one issue completely out the window.
2)Give him a copy of "Schrodinger's Cat" by Robert Anton Wilson. If he's unable to understand normal reasons for social mores, this gives him another explanation.
3)Punk music
4)An ecstasy addiction
Ok, number 4 prolly isn't a good idea in the long run, which is why I'm a dropout, but fuck me if it doesn't build social skills and confidence
//
Math contests such as the AMC10/12 are an excellent way for geeks to meet people with similar interests.
- Mike Nolan
Isolating children from peers and reality is not a good way to impart social skills. Communicating to them from a young age that they're special and better than other people is a negative towards producing functional adults.
Social skills are built through experience, now from memorizing a set of strategies for coping with the stupidity of other people. If part of that is learning to deal with people who don't like you (for any reason), well, that's life.
I see this sort of idiotic reasoning as crappy self-justification, sort of an "I'm better than everyone and that's why they hate me". People who adopt this sort of view are walking down a dangerous road towards more isolation (and probably the things that go with it, like depression or other psychological problems). It's the wrong way to go.
And I know of whence I speak -- I got my ass kicked on occassion in grade school. I had to deal with all the names and other bullshit. But hey, that's life. Learning to deal with advesity is what makes a person who they are.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
These groups include:
There are quite a few others out there, but I can vouch for the quality of these from personal experience.
Don't mention the war.... With appologies to John Cleese In all seriousness, most colleges now have mandatory socialization and team building built into their carriculum for technical majors like engineering and computer science. My university makes you take specific courses in professional development so that you get the basics of team structure and motivation and what not. My brother at Carnagie Mellon says that for computer science majors to graduate, for their freshman year they have to accumulate a certain number of socialization points, which they earn for things like going to movies and even for showering.
While some social skills are required to work and live, try not to over teach these skills. While I realize that being able to sit down and BS with the boss at work may be helpful to yourself, I think it actually hurts the rest of us. Think about it. If no one had the "social skills" to suck up to management, they would have nothing else to base their impressions on except for work ethic, etc. Teaching a child that making fun of ones hair makes sense just supports the behavior. I don't know exactly how to explain what I'm getting at, but social skills are what create PHBs, politicians, etc. Please spare them this fate. It may be a misrable future, but at least it's one with morals, values, and right on one's side!
I am a viral sig. Please help me spread.
Give him a haircut.
A pulse.
KARMA WHORE ALARM!
I fine you $5.00 for being a karma whore. Labelling your comments as jokes is a sign of karmawhoredom. Or perhaps its a required evil due to humorless mods. Let the courts decide!
Teach him to lift weights. It builds your body physically. Makes you more appealing to the other sex. Puts you in a social position to meet other people and builds confidence.
I do security
How old is the student you are working with? Is he old enough to care about girls and the pleasures they offer, or would karate or some other martial art be more appropriate? Oh yeah, and how well do you think a buch of geeks would be able to answer the question in the first place. If we cared about how not to be a geek, we wouldn't be reading Slashdot.
Just let him be to his books and thoughts. He may have more important things to accomplish and being social isn't one of them. Newton never got laid for instance. Just make sure he takes baths.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Sports.
.
Yes, you read that right. Sports.
But, I mean specifically low-impact sports, where cooperation is stressed as much as competition. That way, the geek kid is meeting other peers in a social situation, where the stress isn't as high, and his teammates are (forced) more inclined to work w/ him, since it ultimately benefits the whole team
Like volleyball. Or basketball. Maybe baseball, though thats usu too boring for your typical geek kid (I know I *hated* it). Definitely not football (american) though maybe football (the rest of the world).
I was also somewhat like this as a kid, unkempt, ratty clothes, more comfortable with a PC than another person.
I learned most of my social skills working in fast food (my family was on the "poor side" and if I wanted a car, or decent clothes, as in not thrift store crap, I had to buy it myself). Working the registers and drive thru I learned how to interact with people, a sorely needed trait. By the time I got out of college (ok I quit as a junior) and had been working fast food and driving for dominos nearly 6 years, I could interact with people, talk to women, etc. I was no "Don Juan" but I'd grown up. In the work force I even made a halfway decent salesman except I couldn't lie or stretch the truth about a product or offering if I were ordered to.
The only real solution I guess is just getting "out there" and having to deal with the assholes, villains, and other players life has for you.
--- www.f-theocean.com
The first thing is that proper grooming should be taught by the parents.
After that you can just teach the kid about proper attire.
When the kid learns how to look proper then you can start teaching social skills.
Social skills can be taught simply going out to active areas in your town. You can also set up games or events with several kids.
There are tons of "ice breaker" games that we all know, love, and hate.(more hate and run away screaming for slashdoters then love)
Depending on how old the kids are you might be able to set up a dinner social or some kind of mock networking event.
Holidays and special days(birthday parties) are excellent times to set things up.
you don't *have* to mark something up funny just 'cos the poster says it is..
Ausbergers syndrome - learn it, know it, ask yourself if it applies here. It is similar in nature to Autism (think of RainMan but really watered down, almost to the point of it being questionable as to whether or not he is / is not affected.)
... while being totally socially inept?
Do the youthes you are talking about have amazing technical skills, wonderful (photographic) memories, the ability to empathize with the computer
Anyways, it is worth understanding.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
I wouldn't try to build social skills in these geeks. Some of our greatest minds in history had negligible social skills which contributed to the free time needed to achieve greatness. What if Linus Torvalds spent all his free time playing pool? Would we have the light bulb had Thomas Edison been a party animal? I think not.
Unknown host pong.
Theres a chance that your student may have a diagnosable social disorder. (too lazy to look up proper name for it)
A guy I went to school with had this. It was very apparent: he could never say the right thing at the right time, had sever difficulty recognizing social patterns, etc.
He was also one of the smartest people I went to school with.
Having very recently been one of the intelligent but socially inept youths, I can give some thoughts on what did and didn't work for me, and what might have worked better:
Find social situations in that child's area of interest. Online forums are a great place to exchange ideas, pose questions, and give answers, and intelligent young people like to feel like they can be on a peer level with adults. You can find a free online forum for almost any area of interest these days.
I also highly recommend MUDs, a text-based multiplayer online game that is extremely socially based. There are hundreds out there, and most are free - check out http://www.mudconnect.com.
Get them engaged in group activities - theatre is a great way to give intelligent kids a way to express their creativity while working together. It also builds confidence in front of an audience.
Debate teams are another way to give kids a chance to use their intelligence in a social situation, and build confidence in their ability to speak their thoughts and to be heard while being polite and having regard for the other side's opinion.
Public speaking classes and/or groups are another good way to build confidence. And this confidence will still help in one-on-one situations.
And last, but not least, a job or internship is another great way to build social skills - you're forced to interact with your co-workers on a social level and to get your job done. If you can't, you don't have a job. Plain and simple.
[Z?]
RMS is that you? Teach the kid social skills so he doesn't come off as a raving homeless man like RMS.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
You can't just stuff a person into a box and expect them to pop out with social skills (much less with the ability to get laid early in life)! By following #1, you'd end up with a mama's boy, someone unable to deal with confrontation, a little whiner who never knew the world might not go his way.
And as for #2....hmmm....sounds awful bully-like to me!
-growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional
I'm a huge nerd... but I'm pretty popular at my school. Everyone knows my true personality also. I'm not trying to show off, but if I can do it, anyone else can. My hair is curly, thick... and out of whack, yet I have a beautiful girlfriend and a job with a lot of my friends.
Personally, I would tell him to make friends individually with certain people that share the same interests as him. If he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to go overboard and talk about Science and Computers ALL of the time, but maybe pick up on something that a lot of people may define as "cool." Never pretend to be something that you're not though. Also, if you have a sense of humor, no matter how big of a geek/nerd you are, everyone will love you. My biggest thing is that everyone knows me for my hacker personality. I'm not a media-whore wannabe, because they don't know what I really do, but everyone knows me as a hacker and respects that.
If you soaked up none of that information, my main tip to gain a great social life is to have an awesome sense of humor. Make a lot of violent jokes to people you know would enjoy it. It helped me.
"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series deals with this same problem, and he ends up getting laid constantly and running armies and 133t jazz like that.
Martial arts, sports, other activities should be *tried*...but not forced. Suggest them, show by example how easy (stress that) and fun it is, but don't force anything. Might push him away by mistake. Start with one-on-one, move up to small groups...make sure this is with literate and intelligent kids too... aah, I'm a rambling lurker, screw it
Dancing Lessons.
If you don't have any sports talent the way to the ladies is to cut a rug on the dance floor...
I don't mean ballroom. I mean whatever is cool with the young people today.
Dancing fosters and appreciation for music and it does two things... 1) It puts you in proximity with young people that want to socialize and 2) It gives you something to talk about.
I recall 7th and 8th Grades and the kids that knew how to dance were far better off socially. Of course we were rocking to The Cars and Cheap Trick, but I imagine the same principles apply...
My father is a blogger.
Show him a picture of Albert Einstein and ask him if he really wants to grow up to be like this man.
Keeping him sheltered from other people is only going to make him feel more alienated from them, and make them feel alienated from him. The goal is to make him feel like a part of society. Besides, who's going to monitor him all the time so he doesn't accidentally have a conversation with someone "small-minded" or a "bully"? Those experiences are as important as positive social experiences and when they're happening you should be teaching skills to cope with them--not years after when they've already learned habits in dealing with them.
JAWSchlech "The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your mistakes." - Despair.com
You state he has trouble cooperating &c. with his peers.
Are they really his peers?
Example. A friend started college at 10. College students were more his peers than other 10-year-olds.
Fortunately his parents didn't try to make him fit in with his age group. He turned out fine, able to fit in with normal peoples, like AC's
While I'm not made fun of, this really reminds me of myself. I get good grades, am not real social, about the only person I really talk to much is another kid in school who's into computer as well. He's somewhat the same, but to a lesser extent. Hell, I'm a freshman in highschool, and I've never been on a date, and the prospects for that happening in the next 3 years, aren't exactly very high.
Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
and to type this all without sounding too aloof.
;) im not a psychological expert for sure.
I think the major diff between smart people and dumb people is that dumb people don't have to think about everything so analytically. that's not to say there aren't smart people who can think analytically about social situations, but just that is something that takes time to develop. Also not to say all smart people develop the ability to emulate social skills either.
my opinion is that in smart people, social skills is a developed trait, while in most people, they don't have to think about it because they aren't focused enough to let it get above suboncious level.
when you're a kid, there hasn't been time yet. kids aren't really rational about anything, even the smartest ones. myself at the time included, even tho i thought i knew it all.
my best advice would be to sit him down and try to explain in an analytical way how social skills are just another thing for him to dominate his peers in. i think that would've motivated me more, before i had figured out that I had to teach myself how to emulate the social skills that appear relevant in others, yet lacking in smart people.
but who knows honestly
Until puberty, that kid ain't gonna do nothing! Why should he/she, there's no motivation.
As a gifted child, I was ruined by the adult attention, separation in class to do advanced projects, and by having no mentors. It took me years to recover, and I wonder if I ever have. Do not separate a gifted child, leave them alone!!!
However, do take them aside privately and help them with dress, grooming, and simple conversational skills. And teach them how to dance. If there is one thing that will push them into the real world of social intercourse, it's being able to dance.
I think the vast majority of geeks are people who simply found computers fun when they were kids. Spending too much time behind them is a side effect...
I'll bet the percentage of actual Ausberger's cases is through the floor.
Identify, within your community, some people
who are a local maximum of:
1) tolerent and understanding of someone like him
People who won't be shocked or in any way
flustered by his screwiness.
2) comperably smart
People whom he will respect on his own terms.
3) living well to an almost fetishy level
People who drink incredibly good wine,
dine at very fine restaurants, enjoy a
good hot-tub, have some sexual success in
their life, know where to get a good massage,
etc.
4) know how to convey well-meaning snobbishness
People who don't put up with crap. Who
keep their affairs in order. Who can look
down on his baser habits without making him
feel like a _complete_ idiot about them.
Introduce him.
In short -- show him the good life, viscerally
and interpersonally -- then hope he works on
making his own version of it.
In short, give him worthy role models. People he
can emulate and then surpass.
Monkey see, monkey do.
p.s., and yeah -- get him laid. Watch out for
sexual compulsion but, otherwise.... well it
would be illegal to hook him up with a decent
prostitute so I can't recommend that. (figure
out if he's gay, btw.)
p.p.s. "doesn't understand" why people react
to e.g., his uncombed hair? bullshit. he's
playing you. He understands perfectly well
but you're an easy distraction.
p.p.p.s.: is he old enough to shave? buy him
a straight razor. If he's a nebbishy little
obsessive geek, then the trick is to focus his
obsession on sensual matters. Distract him
from cultural/scientific abstractions towards
an abstraction of his Self.
p.p.p.p.s: show him this post. This thread.
let him take on his problem as _his_ problem.
He's a big boy, after all.
I find myself in this dilemma. To make a long story short, I have a teenage stepson. He's wanting to get into computers, (probably web stuff or game development, so I keep trying to turn him on to
Living with his mother and myself, we're both geeks. So needless to say, the usual geek-a-thon we partake in, he fits right in. He's enthralled by computers and the internet. I work for an ISP, his mom works for another company, in customer service. Sometimes our social skills clash with him and we find it very difficult to communicate.
But the bottom line is
So... I do for him what I think I would have wanted at that age... just give him exposure. I met a friend for lunch and he wanted to show(off) some equipment at their facility (servers, routers, racks, etc), so I asked the stepson if he'd like to come along
He's interested in this girl at school and he's been really different... traded his glasses for contacts, etc. He's even laughing at our jokes! (which can be terrible and often eyeball-roll inducing.) Ok so maybe he's not like I was in high school...
FLR
Wishful thinking, but none of these 3 are usually possible. I think the best thing you can do is spend time with your kids doing what they like to do. Most of these kinds of kids don't have friends who like what they like so at least they have a parent supporting them. Beyond that, make sure they have fun. A depressed kid, especially if they're gifted, is going to get jaded really quick. Since they can't necessarily have social fun, at least ensure they can have fun doing their thing. In time they'll just naturally attract others who see value in those things and the social part will work itself out. If they're having negative experiences with other kids don't ignore it. Make sure you tell them it's not the way things should be and then take action to stop it. Don't make the kid deal with negative experiences alone because they're incapable. Don't baby either, but make sure the right environment exists as much as possible.
4 - Get them to smoke pot and hang in that crowd
Find a school for gifted and talented kids (some states have 'em) and get him to apply. Find a summer camp for him to go to (e.g., math camp, science camp, computer camp, chess camp) that will be populated w/kids like him. Get him in some kind of peer group.
I hope this isn't too obvious.
John.
Seriously, smoking pot is social, and it's easier to be social when you're stoned. People will be more receptive to your wacky ideas and mannerisms. Stoners tend to be more accepting, also, since they're not part of the cool kids' club. At least they weren't when I was in school.
The only problem, of course, is that you can't just go up to minors and say "Hey, you ought to start smoking pot. It'll be good for you!" and pass him a joint. But I stand by my theory.
As superficial as it sounds... weightlifting helped me a TON in high school.
:-D
If he is really dedicated it will do several things:
provide some self-disclipline, keep him healthy, make him feel better about himself.
A lot of not being social has to do with feeling that you dont fit in. When he starts feeling better about himself this will start to change.
More importantly, when people start noticing the muscle, and commenting, and talking to him, it will REALLY start to change.
Whats better, is that he will gain some respect around school, and can protect all his geek friends.
Not to mention it gives him something not geek like to talk about
He'll probably be interested in a girl at some time, then tell him you have a book that will help him get chicks then give him "The New Male Female Relationship" by Herb Goldberg. I'm 19 last year I read this book at a time of crisis and now I am extremely confident and have great social skills.
Beat them with a carrot until they learn.
The way I started to get stuff like this was to make use of my intellectual and analytic strengths to get a theoretical understanding of what was going on, and then to approach it like a naturalist studying a foreign species. Then as I figured things out, I practiced, praticed, and practiced some more.
A book I found helpful on the theoretical side were Chimpanzee Politics, a detailed study of political struggle in a colony of chimps. Once I got how this stuff worked in our nearest relatives, a lot of previously mysterious human behavior made more sense to me. Another fantastic one is Impro, a book about improvisational theater which contains some great material on exactly how humans express some of the monkey stuff, how to become more aware of it, and how to do it on stage.
Also helpful are books on body language and flirting (e.g., this one, but there are a ton of them). All of this reading should be combined with observation. TV and movies are a great place to start; the signals are obvious, and you can rewind and slow-mo to help get it. But there's nothing like the real world: classrooms, cafes, and bars are a big help, too.
But there's nothing like practice. It's best to start practicing stuff in a safe environment, possibly by role-playing with friends, teachers, or counsellors. If he easily gets flustered or frustrated when trying this in real life, it's worth talking to a psychiatrist to see if they can help; problems like social anxiety, attention defecit disorder, and depression can interfere in both learning and performing.
Another way to make use of the geeky side is to have him come up with procedures and rituals for things other people do naturally. E.g., have him write up the checklist for the rituals he must perform (brushing his teeth, coming his hair) before he goes into the monkey cage (i.e. classroom). He might also be excited by using high-tech tools (like using the computer to record and catalog of himself and others doing normal social things).
One tip: Somebody who spends all their time on geeky pursuits will be used to learning things quickly. They must be prepared that in this, progress will come very slowly. It's a whole different kind of intelligence. A good popular read on the science behind it is Emotional Intelligence.
Good luck!
"Sex Tips for Geeks"
/dev/girl -t
wet, fsck, more, yes, yes, umount, sleep
The UNIX Guru's View of Sex:
grep, touch, strip, unzip, head, mount
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Raves, and the Marine Corps.
Not joking.
"Asberger's Syndrome" describes me fairly well, but I don't have the depression bit of it and I do take a holistic approach. However, I contend that the syndrome is an artificial side effect of too narrow a view of "normal". It basically says if you're not a Jock or a Cheerleader, there's something wrong with you. This is, of course, crap.
In any given community there is a core group of people that think the same, act the same and think of themselves as normal. They are, in fact, the freaks. The vast majority of people in the world are in fact distinctly different from every other person on the planet due to their genes, their upbringing or some other event.
Trying to be the same as this core group of freaks is a significant cause of depression, since it's actually impossible. So, don't mention "Asberger's Syndrome", never imply that there's anything wrong with being different. Everyone is better than you at something.
"I've found that as intelligence increases, happiness often decreases. Look, I even made a graph! ... I make a lot of graphs."
- Lisa Simpson
(Yes, I was diagnosed as "gifted" when I was a kid. They should have NEVER told me...)
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
Definitely agree. I have it, and I in fact run most of my interactions with other people under emulation, as well, and now I get by fine.
Before I discovered this, I was frequently beaten up and otherwise bullied.
Sometimes you simply *can't* "build social skills" in any traditional way, because you are trying to run the binaries on the wrong hardware.
-- ASV
ROFLMAO!! [nt]
Well speaking as someone who experiences this everyday I'd say they need a mentor or some role model to explain how socializing works. When someone says "hi" you say "hi" back, and smiling helps too. They may not know this, it sounds like they should know how to act but maybe they never learned.There is a time limit. I always think of it like those children who were abused and locked up by thier parents. They never learned to speak and by the time they were rescued it was too late because thier brains couldn't handle speech.
BTW you don't have to be super smart to be shy, I think that glamorizes it and makes a happy ending. What if you were just of average intelligence, would someone want to help someone like that?
A new word should be invented instead of "shy" it is so common it's lost all meaning. It doesn't even hint at the incredible pain experienced by people who suffer it.
once he can post with a karma bonus, set him free. There is nothing else to teach him.
Quite frankly, the teacher should be more concerned about the bullies; the smart kid isn't the problem, the bullies are. Why?
They usually turn out to be complete rejects as far as society goes; violent neanderthals, basically. Everyone looks the other way until BAM, they hit the real world and suddenly end up in jail for bashing their girlfriend's head against the wall(unless they happen to make it big in sports). Meanwhile, the geek suffers and may be secluded, but ultimately contributes to society in ways the ape never could have.
The solution here is to be strict with punishing the kids that pick on him. Johnny makes fun of him for not combing his hair? Johnny gets a time-out and a talk about how we're all different people, and we need to accept those who are different from us. Children start out as pretty accepting- but in the early years they can either learn it's really NOT ok to pick on other people, or they can get away with it, feel slightly good about themselves, and keep doing it. Learning to accept others makes them far more likely to succeed in school and particularly in the workplace(ie, "team players").
Please help metamoderate.
One thing I don't like about this society is the expectation that a kid can be flawless, a good student, smart, and have charisma and social skills. Get real people, if someone is gifted they usually arent going to have those gifts in other areas. Most geniuses are good at just one thing in life, and that should be good enough for most people.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Talking to a child psychologist might do wonders for this kid. There are lots of good programs out there to build social skills, and a professional can help steer you in the right direction.
Full disclosure: I work for a company that creates programs to help build social skills. We have a comprehensive list of reading materials and resources here: here.
This is why we have Friendster! Be social and program the next myDoom virus in stride!
While being related to that, you could also say the child could be dyspraxic and dyslexic, as I am.
In what has been described in the blurb, I see what I was when I joined year 7 at my UK school.
The best way I coped with social situations was literlly to relate them to computer programming. Each individual is an object, they have the same properties, but diffrent values.
The best way to socialise with one another is to exchange the diffrent values you have and try to find similar ones. When you do, its best to follow the similar ones, and thus you can become friends with them.
If they have diffrent values but express intrest in the ones you have, you could show them about that value. Thus you have also made a friend through diffrences.
I still find it hard to socialise with girls, however, with time comes perfection, as I currently have a girlfriend.
You need to, without making them feel unwanted or put down by suggestions, make them think a bit about their outwards apperence. Hand them a comb in the morning, and make a small joke about why to use it. (E.g. better look snappy, you never know who might walk through the door - or something similar without the cheeseness).
Do get them tested for all three, both of my points, and the parent posters point, as early diagnosis is very helpfull.
Good Luck
NeoThermic
Use my link above, or to view my server, NeoThermic.com
I was 25 before starting to understand skills needed in life. Mensa as a great place to learn what all should have learned in Jr High.
First a group of other gifted people. You can have meaningful conversions about Choas. You can play triva pursuit in a hot tub. Also fun mind changes like solving puzzles... "You leave from Alma Ata to travel though Porgera then on to Kericho, to bring this to front." What do you bring to the front?
Since females and males are both able to join and about in equal numbers, you can also find some one to talk to.
I met my wife of 16 years via Mensa. I dropped a speaker on her head while dance with my (then) girl friend. Though, I did come off as more freindly then the guy who's opening line was "I had a CAT scan today, do you want to see?"
Answer: ALA-RGE-KEY
How would you build social skills in someone more concerned with math, science and computers?
You dont! Whats the matter with you. Youre smart enough to know Slashdot exists, yet you post offensive questions like that. Whats wrong with him? And why would you hook him up with inferior hobbies like meeting people.
That said, theres value in being able to say hi to girls. Alternatively you can get them to say hi to you by being a Lotus consultant in a porsche, but there are easier ways while youre making GPL software, and thats training.
Ive seen geeks that ARE social depend alot on humor. That scrawny geeky guy in the group is usually the funniest and certainly doesnt mind being poked fun at. The mathematically inclined are usually a bit on the sensitive side, and it really helps to show them how to deal with people with humor. He should be able to see the funny side of his character, and the funny side of other people, and build from there.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I met a high school kid a couple of years back who blew away any anti-social geek I've ever known. The /. crowd only *thinks* it's out of the social loop, but trust me, this kid has everyone here beat (the fact you come to this site at all makes you more social and recreational). To begin with, he read no fiction whatsoever. Only text books. High level math and physics. Neither science fiction nor fantasy appealed to him. I wish to god I could remember what he said about the /. site after I pointed him to it.
/. crowd, to really help this kid. You may have no idea why this kid is acting the way he is, so don't try to fix him. He's not an iPod mini. If you screw up and make things worse, it's a person, not a couple hundered bucks, that's lost.
Anyway, I *tried* to get this kid into something that even the geek crowd would think was recreational, but nada. No music, no movies, no video games, no sports (assuming foozball counts as a sport). Sure, he's headed to Yale, and he knows assloads about engineering already (he could talk down to a master's student from GA Tech), but I can't imagine how lonely the guy may one day end up. It's *possible* that he'll meet a girl who'll fall in love with him for what he's like now, but his playing field is severely limited as such. And yes, I understand that his idea of recreation was the things he was into, but it isn't exactly common ground when it comes to finding friends. He basically reminds me of the guy from Sneakers who made robotic dogs, but more limited.
I finally decided that it wasn't my place to help this guy. That might be the case with the student in the article. I personally think that it'll take a psychologist/psychiatrist, and not the
Does he seem to care about being accepted, or are you just seeing this and thinking 'Gee, that kid isn't popular. Doesn't this blow?'. I mean, I don't give half of a shit if people like me or not. I don't need to go to parties every friday night and get distracted from my projects.
But if you want some social skills, try some internet communities, or a hobby game thing, like Warhammer 40k. Going to the store for games with their fancy tables and terrain, huge online communities etc etc.
The Yasashii Syndicate ||
This is step 1. Honestly, I know that it's shallow to judge someone on their looks, but hey, it is something that we have *evolved* over millions of years. People who look better succeed, it is a *fact*.
If the kid is upset that people laugh at his hairstyle, then, duh, maybe he should *change* it?
I honestly don't understand why geeks will get upset when people mock their style.. you have thousands of examples of (halfway) decent style to draw on daily, and you don't have to spend a bundle to be dressed normally for your age group. Unless you are going out of your way to look different on purpose (goth, etc ) there is no need for *looking" like a loser before anyone even speaks to you.
such as basketball.
They can then also do research into all the statistics and history of the sport which will be good for them to discuss wiht others. So basically being smart in that area isnt actually considered nerdy even though its no different to memorising the perodic table.
And playing in a team sport will force themn to communicate and socialise.
Your student needs to learn some simple speaking skills. Speaking skills will go a long ways towards their future career and life in general. Get him involved in forensics. That would be an excellent place to learn to speak in public as well as put his intellect and primarily his reasoning to good use.
This year when i run it, ill be sure to have it running more smoothly (as i ran it for only 2 semesters for the first time) and hope to allocate some more funding for extra parts from my "budget"
Hope this gives the original poster some idea's as to what to do with a little bit of creativity.
We played dungeons and dragons for 3 hours.....then i was slain by an elf
"Asperger Syndrome or (Asperger's Disorder) is a neurobiological disorder named for a Viennese physician, Hans Asperger, who in 1944 published a paper which described a pattern of behaviors in several young boys who had normal intelligence and language development, but who also exhibited autistic-like behaviors and marked deficiencies in social and communication skills. "
By Barbara L. Kirby
Founder of the OASIS Web site (www.aspergersyndrome.org)
Co-author of THE OASIS GUIDE TO ASPERGER SYNDROME (Crown, 2001)
You can never equivocate too much.
funny mods don't earn karma.
Give him $200 and put him on a plane to New York City.
but a bit simplistic, as a short post must necessarily be.
You won't be able to keep him away from bullies... they abound, and show a certain cunning in oppressing others. Far better a strategy may be found in your second point... teach them how to deal with these types until such time as the legal system offers remedies against the bully's physically assaultive behavior (I doubt too many geeks fear verbal sparring matches with these goons; as the quicker mind tends to prevail). It might also give them some experience with enduring pain and hassle... a valuable trait.
As for getting them laid early in life... I may be in the minority on this one, but caution is definitely in order. If you make their first sexual experience involve some Thai prostitute, you'll forever warp their expectations and impressions about intimacy. No bullsh*t... those experiences are emotionally powerful, and you tend to remember them. Depending on how you interpret those memories, they can become emotional baggage that affects your relationships with future partners.
Sex is a powerful thing... best let him save himself until such time as he can make his own conscious decisions about it, and has the maturity to handle it.
Some of our Slashpervs may, of course, disagree.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I know when I was growing up I was mystified by a lot of social behavior. It wasn't until I was exposed to psychology, different personality types and the concept of group behavior that gave reasons for why certain social institutions exist (be it church, dating, etc) that anything made sense.
Most geeks I know all come from the same place individuality-wise, and none of us ever got the group-think, herd behavior thing that predominates larger social groups of people until we were well into college; I think we all would have been better off knowing more, so your actions are commendable. Since geeks seem to live on the question of "Why?" having some answers here helps get the point across.
I agree with the other posters of making it an intellectual exercise -- for example, being able to grok various roles people play and mimic them back (acting), or making it another system to learn (social engineering). I'd also suggest some social psychology studies (or even animal behavior studies -- once you get the idea of packs, leadership challenges, etc, it maps all too well into human behavior, and he might even see the humor in this.) I know I would have been greatly better off in my dating had I been exposed to some of the current theories on evolutionary psychology at a younger age as well.
Also -- while it got modded as funny -- point out it'll get him laid is pretty valid, motivation-wise.
Yeah sports are good, and as someone other people said martial arts too
but if he is old enough (to help in sports too) try wieghtlifting, he can get a partner and work on getting huge, then he can kick the kids ass if they make fun of his un-combed hair...
Believe me, I went through this in a major way, since I grew up in a sports-loving-intellectual-hating public school. Here's what helped me break out of it:
1) The kid should make no apologies for his brains. Unfortunately, many such kids are bright enough to realize that people like you if you're stupid, and thus try to act like an idiot to try to make friends.
2) Show the kid that social issues can be solved just like mathematical and scientific problems. Individual people, especially children aged 8-12, are pretty easy to predict, so encourage the kid to try experimenting with various approaches, changes in appearance, etc, and noticing how each classmate reacts. You might try having the nerd take notes and create a report findings to the teacher, and if their not inflammatory, to the rest of the class.
3) Provide opportunities for the kid's intelligence to be used to the benefit of classmates in a context which matters to them. For instance, give them a mathematical puzzle to solve as a group with a reward based on how quickly they can do it. Suddenly a nerdy kid becomes useful, and everybody's friend.
4) Make sure the kid knows that eventually the nerds win. Big time. They control almost everything, from sciences to many businesses to sports teams to governments. Also make it clear that bullying is a sign of weakness, not strength.
5) Let him find some nerdy friends. They often exist.
-------------
Here are some ideas which you should never ever ever try:
1) Don't blame the nerd for bullies. Teaching a nerd not to be a victim is fine, but to blame the nerd is to tell him that you support the bullies. Dumber kids might not see that connection, but a nerd definitely will.
2) Don't give the nerd self-help books. That just encourages more reading and less social behavior, which makes matters worse.
3) Don't force the nerd to spend time with a particular classmate. The nerd doesn't enjoy it, because the classmate is clearly pretending to be a friend, while the classmate immediately resents the nerds presence because it was imposed by an adult. No one wins.
I am officially gone from
when I was a kid, no one had ever heard of ADD.
So, they just beat the shit out of you endlessly.
I made straight A's in my sleep, it was too easy. I despised school because it was so freaking boring. I wanted more than the pablum they were trying to feed me. I would ace the work and then sleep since there was nothing else to do back then. Then I would get in trouble for sleeping and get sent to the office for a whipping. That would set me off on a blue streak of bad behavior. Then I would get beat on when I got home for getting whipped at school. It was a never ending cycle of beatings. I finally told the world to get fucked and I just simply refused to participate in school or any other acitivies and withdrew into a world of electronics. I lived by the soldering iron. All I did was make things and fix things and take things apart. I never learned to interact with other people very well. At 43 I still don't much like being around other people.
Now I see that what was happening was that I had no control over my life and in a world of electronics I DID have control over things.
I had the power to control and manipulate things in my world whereas in the outside world I was being manipulated and squashed into molds and forms that I didn't fit into.
People would go to jail today for what they did to me when I was a kid.
And one last thing. I didn't beat my kids and they grew up normal.
your bright young student has Asperger's Syndrome.
One of the things that you mentioned was that people make fun of him because of his uncombed hair. Looks can be half the battle...
This may sound a little fruity, but it will work. Get him interested in Men's magazines, like Maxim, etc.. (one problem with this is the mature subject matter contained within).... Try to get him to have an interest in fashion...
It is interesting, people make judgements about how you look, and if you look like a nerd, you will be a nerd. Kids make these judgments too.
I see all of these messages that say "get him laid" etc. etc. Though not a real productive in of itself, it is interesting to note how some "geeks" are able to court hot woman, but others are left at home with their multi-player games. This is mainly because the geeks courting the hot women appear little different than other guys, except for one major thing: they appear smarter. If all things are equal, a woman will go for a smarter guy. The problem for many geeks is that they are not willing to give into making themselves not appear as nerds.
Many geeks don't have good social skills. It is not because they are not good at communicating with non geeks. As you mentee starts to interact better with his peers, he will become more used to it and be more comfortable with his peers.
Pick up a copy of Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. This book can change a great many things. It is a psychology text, and very well referenced. You can get a used copy for less than $5 U.S.
6 7/ qid=1078801742/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-4037538-89328 52
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/05533750
Basically, one of the current theories in psych is that humans have different types of intelligence, and they are sufficiently independant that an individual may have any combination of abilities in the categories. Emotional intelligence is what provides empathy, social skills, self control, motivation, discipline, and other useful traits.
The book covers anatomy, social psych, methods to apply this knowledge, studies showing the results of those applications, and more.
In short, I recommend this book to everyone I know sooner or later.
It's not easy - imho the trick is to make them understand that a) different people have a lot of different things to offer, and b) that to become truly smart, or wise, you need to be exposed to a wide range of influences.
i ve languages like Slavic languages, or Asian languages like Japanese, Chinese...
In programming for instance, to give an example many people here might be able to relate to, it's usually very enriching to learn a lot of different languages - even when you end up working in one or two languages mostly, you'll most likely use the concepts from the other languages too. If anything, you'll be a better designer, and have a deeper understanding; And you'll be able to express yourself better.
The same goes for dead human languages, like latin or old greek, or even current-but-not-so-very-useful-in-the-place-you-l
That realisation is a first step. You need a diverse set of influences to challenge you, and for that people can be very interesting. And it's not always the smartest, richest, or most beautiful that will teach you things about yourself and the world.
All this to say, that first, the person needs to want to have social skills. Often, they don't see the need, and smart people sometimes consider the rest of the world "inferior". It's really important to have confidence, but you shouldn't think the rest of the world is not worthy of your attention.
to a LUG meeting ;)
"All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
The first thing you really need to make him understand is that the number of people out there who are really interesting and motivated to learn is pretty small, and those who he meets should be valued--but since most people out there aren't terribly interested in being serious intellectuals, he needs to be able to function with them. If he's interested in economics, introduce it as an opportunity cost argument. If not, maybe introduce it to him as a prisoner's dilemma *grin*?
He doesn't need to embrace the culture of his peers, he just needs to find things that interest him that create lanes of communication. I know I wasn't interested in football when I first got to Michigan (I grew up in NYC and attended Stuy), but I quickly realized that it was something that allowed you to chat with a lot of people, and since I've always enjoyed sports, I took the time to learn a lot about it. This doesn't mean that he has to do some rote memorization job so he has something to talk about, it just means he should look into what his peers are interested in, and if any of it interests him, he should take the time to learn about it (his way).
His peers will be interested in chatting with him, and knowing him, if he can discuss the subjects they are interested in talking about it in a novel and interesting way for them. If he's smart, and interested in coming up with novel ways of thinking about things, I doubt he'd have a problem with doing this.
Your student has to understand that we have to function in the world of our peers--whatever that is. Maybe he'll eventually become an academic and be able to lock himself up in an ivory tower, or some cube farm with a whole bunch of other people that are interested in programming. But until he gets to that point, it makes sense to at least try to understand his surroundings rather than trying to make them understand him. Ask him if he thinks its easier to understand him, or its easier for him to understand his class mates?
Unfortunately not very many of us can surround ourselves completely with people who all share our interests, but I've certainly had a lot more fun socially trying to get engage myself in what my friends and aquaintances are interested in, instead of just trying to engage them in my interests.
If he needs a jump start, try getting him to do something, whether its cutting his hair, wearing jeans (or not wearing jeans), etc, that you know he thinks *I* can't do that, but is actually something minor... He's probably backed himself into a niche with his peers that will take him some effort to widen.
I have two kids with mild Asperger's, and it probably comes from my side of the family. Here are a couple of things I've learned:
* There are extroverts and introverts. Introverts gain energy from being alone; extroverts gain energy from talking with others. It's good to know both kinds of people, but don't forget what is good for your soul.
* The outdoors are a wonderful place. Endless miracles everywhere. Getting away from the modern world allows space for the quiet mind. The whole world slows down.
* Activities that don't require verbal communication, such as gardening, hiking, foraging, tracking, fishing, etc. are a blessing.
* Be happy with the special gifts you have; stop worrying about whether you measure up to everyone around you. It's wonderful to be different.
* There are plenty of quiet people; you just have to realize that these are the people you want to be around and seek them out.
* Be extra careful with intense relationships. Don't be careless about sex; being a parent is often very tough if caregiving is not part of your upbringing.
Having never taken a martial art, I don't know how effective they are. However, an alternative is to start running. Running has to be one of the best physical activities, and can be done throughout your entire life.
If the school has a cross country team, (especially if it is no-cut, like mine was), then that may be the perfect way to get involved with peers in an activity. It certainly opened me up more to other people and was one of the best decisions I ever made.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.
I have a cousin whose parents always labeled him as "too good" for sports (so of course he ended up believing that, too). So, now not only has he never played a sport, but he looks down on people who do.
Just recently, he applied to one of the better acting schools in California. When he didn't get in, he threw a hissy fit worthy of a six year old -- stomped around the house, yelled at his folks, cried, made quasi-abusive calls to the college demanding to talk with the people in admissions, etc. This wasn't one night, either; this went on for months.
Simply put, he doesn't know how to lose. Or, maybe more specifically, he doesn't know how to react in a positive way when things don't fall the way he wants them to. All his life he's been sheltered from competition and told that he's gifted and better than everyone else and all the other crapola that parents in the 80's pushed on their kids, so when something happens to challenge this point of view he falls to pieces.
So, instead of getting a spot at another school and working on a transfer, he's convinced himself that the people in admissions are threatened by his talent and that they don't deserve him. When the school year starts, he'll be working part time at a coffee shop in San Francisco instead of going after his dreams.
Anyhow, when/if I have kids, you can bet they'll play something. Soccer, baseball, football, whatever -- aside from the other benefits of physical activity, I think it's a valuable place to learn how to deal with adversity (aka, lose).
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
all he'll have to do is execute his karate skills on the girl of his choice until she gives in!
I strongly recomend Robotics, it's done so much for me. i never liked sports, but robotics allowed me to work in a team setting, and display my skills.
That's what I did. Joining a fraternity taught me how to interact with other people who are nothing like me, a proud "engi-nerd". In high school, I hung out with honors students, and until I joined a frat, I hung out with engineers. It was the most fun and most beneficial experience I had as an undergrad. Some frats are better than others, of course, but even nerds can have a good time in a frat.
Keep him away from losers. Not everyone in the world needs to enjoy drinking bear and swearing boorist, chauvinist comments at ladies and poorly thought out televeision programs. Reaffirm his believe in his interests and see if you can get him around similar people. Anything else will cause him to suffer.
Since we don't actually know much about this kid, the best I can do is try to address some common problems.
First, the kid is smarter than just about everyone around him. Way smarter. You know it. He knows it. Make sure that he understands that just about everyone else already knows it as well, and those who are too dumb to recognize it aren't worth impressing. So he doesn't need to beat them over the head with the fact.
Tact is often 90% of the battle. People who are intellectually gifted but socially maladapted tend to be insecure about it, and will retreat into whatever they feel they excel at. So it's pretty frequent that "the smart guy" is the one who ends up jumping down peoples' throats over minor errors. It's not a good friend-winning strategy, but people tend to build themselves up by tearing others down.
So, he has this brain on him. How to get him to use it for good instead of evil? How about teaching him how to tutor his classmates? If you can drill into his head that he needs to be forgiving of mistakes, and compliment people for their effort, it could lead to some positive interactions. For geeks his age, positive social interactions are often few and far between.
Fashion shouldn't be too hard. He doesn't need the $50 jeans or the $200 shoes. Just throw away everything that's too threadbare, or actively hideous. The goal isn't to turn him into a GQ model, but to simply raise his fashion sense to the point that his clothes aren't a limiting factor. The same goes for hygiene. Get him to do something with his hair. Doesn't much matter what.
He might want to take up weight lifting or running or cycling. Something to give him a bit of confidence in his own body. Karate might be cool as well. If he can find something he enjoys in the way of team sports, all the better.
Now the word we've all been waiting for: Girls. I can't say I'm wise in their womanly ways, but let's get a few of the serious no-no's out of the way. Treat them with respect, show interest in their hobbies, don't insult their friends, and for god's sake, don't bitch and moan about how girls all want guys who treat them like dirt. That attitude is both insulting and wrong, and I've seen way too many guys who do it. Occasionally, it's true, but far more often it's just a defensive measure to keep the guy from having to evaluate what he did wrong.
Find something he likes, and find a way for him to get others involved in it (even if it's "just" his fellow geeks).
Just remember that you won't be able to do anything without his cooperation. If he's totally stubborn, help him with the scholastics and hope that he figures the rest out on his own.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
They should use This Device covered in a previous slashdot story
What a great topic for discussion ! I used to be one of your typical wunderkind uber-geeks, for more than half my life. I think the problem for myself (and for most children who are currently affected by this) was that the social systems are built to accomodate people of average intelligence, and these children are above-average. Working within these systems, the children are supposed to make certain mistakes and bond with other children, usually over common problems. The relationships forged during these events then draw the children together in-between, and they learn from each other how to construct a social persona. The obvious problem in the case of an above-average child is that oftentimes they won't make the same mistakes as ordinairy children, and thus miss the whole process. Childhood's social instruction being cumulative as it is, these effects become more glaring as time passes, until they are rejected as being too different from the other children.
When I was sixteen I got tired of being "geekish" and set out to figure out exactly what the difference was between how I acted and how everyone else did. After a couple months of watching and thinking, my parents noticed and brought me home some texts on sociology & psychology. After I started looking at the other kids and understanding the reasons behind their acctions I was much more sucessful in fitting in. So sucessful, in fact, that almost every job I've had is in sales/customer service/etc, and I am always one of the highest performers.
So I guess the moral of my long rambling post is this : don't try to get a kid who understands nothing about socializing and everything about science to learn to socialize. Show them the social sciences - they can figure out the rest (if they want to).
Seriously. He's probably just one more casualty in a society that is ignorant with respect to the emotional nurturing of children and the lifelong effects stemming from that ignorance and neglect.
Generally, children that are respected and empathized with, grow up to be respectful, empathetic people.
However, in our society, we see a young geek without social skills and we see a person with a problem.
Barring some kind of physical origin of his problem, his real problem is most likely that he has inept parents.
Geeks should be the first people to take an interest in what impact narcissistic love and a lack of emotional nurturing has on a child.
The works of Alice Miller explain this concept (and elaborate upon it) and are easily accesssible to the lay person.
Stop dismissing your humanity because you're afraid that you're blaming someone else for your problems. To take responsibility for oneself is to identify what one needed as a human being but was deprived of.
Jesus saves....And takes 1/2 damage.
Get him into a debate club, seriously. This will boost his public speaking and interaction skills. This did wonders for me, it taught me how to speak, how to not mumble, how to present myself in public.
My Signature
I was going to reply to the parent, saying, basically, this. Since you said it, I'm satisfied in classifying you as my "friend".
If we are talking about grammar school children, explain that people like those who are clean, smelling good, and have a sense of humor.
If we are talking about teenagers, sex is really the right answer. Not that I advocate actually getting him laid, but let's not ignore the fact that the desire to reproduce is the second strongest desire in all of nature, just under survival. Like it or not, in order to be attractive to women (or even men) you must be clean, sociable, and being in decent shape doesn't hurt. Most intelligent people would be with you on that this is a good course of action, the problem is how to be sociable.
I don't advocate D&D any more than I do cocaine. It's addictive and ends up introducing you to more people with no social skills. LUG's, Magic, theater, and comicon are all right there with it. The goal is to interact with people who are outside your social circle and comfort zone. I saw a few good suggestions for this: martial arts, camping (boy scouts), sports.
I am a geek, I am fat, everyone I know describes me as outgoing. The secret was realizing the falseness of "cool" and "popular".
Someone is popular because they are accepted by those who you perceive to be popular. It's in your perception. There is nothing which sets the cool apart from the un-cool other than that individual's self-perception. Once I was able to come to terms with the fact that no one is intrinsically better than me nor more worthy, I was able to break the mental block which kept me in the theater and out of the keggers. Once I quit ranking myself on a scale of what I thought others thought of me, I was able to become what I thought of myself.
Remember that being more intelligent does give you the advantage. You can learn the game, practice it, and become proficient while others are still coming to grips that there is a game at all.
IMHO, there are some people who can be safely ignored for a period of time during early developement.
I grew up in a "tough" school that was VERY anti-intellectual. My graduating class consisted of less than 50% of the people that started High School, many of my "peers" are dead or jailed right now. There are several people that I had run-ins with early in life that I wish I'd have been isolated from. Being young and poorly guided, I fought these people physically, ignored school work to engage in "social" interaction with like-minded individuals (the friend of my enemy is my friend), etc. If I'd simply been sheltered from them, I sincerely believe that I could have gotten involved in much more productive interaction with a more intelligent group in HS than I did. I eventually abandoned my "friends" when I realized I wasn't as intellectually stunted as them, and now I'm more or less on my own in the friendship arena even though there were plenty of equals and superiors that I could have latched on to.
I don't think that sheltering children in the early years is a bad thing. Once they've developed a mature enough stance to be taught how to stand up against bullies, bigots, etc. then they can be introduced to the full gamut of the social strucure. However, you have to remember that these people who display extra intellectual prowess above and beyond their peers are effectively skipping HUGE areas of development that the rest of us have gone through. Getting them involved in more challenging material early on and protecting them is crucial to keeping them involved in that material, in my mind.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
I was a total geek until I started doing dance. I don't mean ballet; I mean hip-hop and breakdance. That completely changed my life, and I'd reccomend it to any geek who needs a bit of fun.
Okay...don't tell him to go weightlifting, don't take him to a strip club, don't "get him laid". It's actually much simpler than that. 1.He likes computers, right? Simple...take him to a LAN party (those things are all over every campus in America). Even the biggest introverts open up when placed in a familiar setting with others with similar interests. It reminds me one time at EB, when a friend and I were looking at games. A group of "geeks" walks in and one of them makes a comment about a game my friend and I are talking about. His friends look at him stupid, and he retorts "Hey, I don't have any social skills here...but I'm trying". Well, he had a point...so we ended up striking a conversation with this introvert in a field he was familiar with (video games). Funny things is, the whole bunch of us "socially inept" losers ended up talking about all aspects of life for the next 40 minutes or so, right in the middle of EB. It was one of the most interesting and downright hilarious conversations I've ever had. A real blast actually. Long story short, put him in his element with understanding people, and he'll open up. 2. If/When he applies for a job, if he's expressed to you that he does want to improve his social skills (I was willing to admit mine needed improving), suggest to him that he take some type of cashier posistion or phone position. Any position where he's forced to interact with the common public can only do him good. While working at a printshop last year, I was forced for the first time in my life to talk to complete strangers and make good acquaintances (making friends with customers = customers who will come back). This did me an absolute world of difference. I became more open to strangers (all friends start out as strangers after all) and got rid of my phone phobia. 3. Just be his friend. I don't know how you talk to him now, but try to be especially friendly and open with him. Don't just talk to him about school. Strike up a conversation with him. "Hey'd you hear about that RIAA lawsuit", "How bout' them delaying Half-Life again". Hell, tell him some of them really lame intellectual jokes. Talk to him like you talk to friends on the street, albeit perhaps more technically. He'll open up. It takes a lot of people a long time to open up, but when they get comfortable, they'll run with it. They water may be cold at first, but once you settle in, it ain't so bad. And after a while, he'll take to it like a fish to water. (Sorry for the horrible closing analogies)
To me, this is a wrong question. Does he really need to build social skills? Perhaps he is not even interested about collective. I believe social skills are needed only for people without intelligence or talents, those who needs marketize selves to be recognized by others (lawyers, movie stars, politicians). Those who are talented or skilled, do not need any social recognition for their own work or effort, because their craft is grounded and evolved within themselves. It is a spiritual quality of the insight. Social recognition is merely ephemeral and very transient and rarely has any value to those people.
So, I would focus on developing what he likes and understands best. Forcing him to do other will only traumatize him and believe me, I know what I am talking about.
There you are, staring at me again.
But the kid a filthy brazilian whore for a night.. that'll break him out of his shell! :-)
The typical nerd who is considered "deficient in social skills" is usually only such when put in the context of your average marketroid, who got where he was largely on the strength of his social skills and his cunningness to use them in acts of unbridled manipulation.
Get a few "cloistered, asocial nerds" together in a context of mutual interest, and they develop social behavior on their own. I've seen it happen many times: in roleplaying, computer, martial arts, and other contexts. However, if their idea of social interaction is yiffing with a 40-something hermfoxie they met at Anthrocon, it may be wise to redirect them to other interesting contexts.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
INT. A man drinks from a glass of yellow liquid as a friend stands nearby.
Man 1: Yuck. This beer tastes like urine.
Man 2: Bob, that is urine.
INT. Two nerdy high school guys pass a cheerleader in a hallway.
Guy 1: Hi Heather.
Heather acknowledges the greeting by rolling her eyes in disgust. Guy 1 gets an excited look on his face.
Guy 1: She likes me!
EXT. Pitchman stands in front of a strip-mall storefront.
Pitchman: Do you know people like this? People who have absolutely no clue whatsoever?
The camera moves back to show the sign above the store.
Pitchman: Then come to The Clue Center . Our trained staff can help.
INT. An employee and a male patient are sitting in a nice office.
Employee 1: Listen, shmuck, I'm gonna explain it one more time... Everyone can tell it's a toupee.
INT. An employee and a female patient sit at a table with a toy car and a dollhouse on it.
Employee 2: This is a car. This is a house. The house is where you put your make-up on. Not the car. Or this could happen.
The employee rams the toy car into the side of the dollhouse.
INT. Pitchman stands in front of a sign, holding a pointer.
Pitchman: At The Clue Center, we'll teach you how to... think before you act... think before you speak... And for repeat customers, we'll teach you how to just think.
INT. A scientific laboratory where Dr. Melvin Splonk faces the camera.
Splonk: The Clue Center is great. Now that I shower every day, people talk to me... even when they don't have to!
INT. A living room. A plain-looking woman sits on a couch.
Woman: After just one visit to The Clue Center, I stopped waiting for Mel Gibson to call and started dating men who actually know I exist. You guys are wonderful!
CARD. The Clue Center logo, address, and phone number.
Voice Over: If you or someone you love needs a clue. Don't wait. Call The Clue Center now!
Pitchman appears in a box below the logo.
Pitchman: We're the thick-skull experts!
FADE OUT:
Start a happiness pandemic
I know I was a "gifted" child as well, what a drag that was, a problem that may occur with gifted children with so many people telling them that they are smart that they think of themselves up pedestal, "nobody can teach me anything".
They then fail to grasp basic human communication of saying something, then letting the other person respond, then adding to that. Sort of playing tennis with conversation, if left uncorrected it's more like they do all the talking and not any listening and not participate in any group
Role playing games like Dungeon and Dragons helps the gifted child see how to place themselves in others shoes, and see how others see him, how to work in groups.
He will then see how people react if he leaves his hair dirty, his shoes untied etc., and fit in better with society.
TV shows like Cheers shows a human group interaction, which each member is a part, not a isolated nobody
It's important to keep placing the child in situations where he gets exposure to group behavior and positive influence.
It's also important to teach and reinforce to the child if he's getting depressed, it's probably because he's isolating himself (everybody needs daily human conversation), once he begins to change his appearance for the better he will get rewarded with more conversation from people, which will alleviate the separation depression, with his smarts he may even turn into a social genius.
Sociology rule number #1: Man is a herd animal, prolonged separation from the group is frustrating to him.
Holy cow I think my Karma may finally rise!
PowerMac users please "Fold" to cure disease for Stanford
You don't need to play sports to learn social skills.
Neither do you have to send them in with their "age group." Many smart kids are more sociable towards older people who understand what the kid is talking about.
In all honesty, here's what helped me the most: find a group of kids with similar interests and give them a big project they can work together on. For me, that was programming.
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
Why not talk to the parents, make suggestions and let them handle it? You might mean well, but it's not your kid.
The first thing he has to realize is that it doesn't matter what these other kids think. I know it's hard for somebody so young, but the sooner he learns it, the better. The next thing he has to learn is that everybody starts off with some pro's and some con's. He is naturally smarter than the other kids. But there is nothing to say that a little group experience won't completely change his social skills relatively quickly. Perhaps it is the other children that you should be focusing on, not being able to accept him for who he is. His lack of social skills seems to be more of a defense mechanism than anything else. Maybe you should take him out of that group. Teach him a few things about group interactions. And then introduce him to a newly formed group and let him develop with them. It seems to me that groups that form together are alot more accepting than if you try to insert somebody into an already formed group.
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementia (There is no great genius without a mixture of madness) - Aristotle
As an archaic geek (i am 38) addled with ADHD, adoption, fundamentalism and a military family, I grew up in almost abject isolation.
I fought alot when I was younger, and then 8th grade hit, and I was Ritalin free. It was then that I realized that I had little to relate to with my peers.
Luckily my parents enrolled me in boy scouts. Luckily the scoutmaster was not into boys! LOL! I learned a lot from scouts.
When I hit puberty, I discovered punk rock and girls. Punk rock gave me reinforcement for my lagging self esteem and cyncism. It gave me the freedom to question and doubt propaganda. It also gave me a healthy release.
Mom and dad sent me to work at a summer camp on Catalina after they got scared of the girls I was hanging out with. All of a sudden, I had the freedom to associate with people who did not know me as the hyperactive kid.
Cognitive therapy helps too, especially if the kids are given an opportunity to associate with other smart kids.
Ultimately, getting laid is very, VERY important. Both Timmy McVeigh and Ted Kascinski, two very different guys, shared something in common besides murderous, cowardly actions, neither one of them had experienced the joys of premature ejaculation. To be honest, I still have a very difficult time relating to people who watch tv, or overzealous in assuming any identity. Braindead conformists and me don't mix. But I am able to interact and have fun with people, even though I share very little in common with them.
Oh ya, Valium helps too.
Maybe this child has poor social skills presicely _because_ his peers make fun of his hair and do not accept him into their social circles. Intelligent children want to be accepted by their peers, but they are not willing to sell their soul by feigning stupidity. There are two solutions. Force the other students to accept the child as he is by not tolerating mean, bullying behavior. Second, perhaps less practical, is to surround him with equally capable students, such as in a program for gifted students.
Ok so a lot of the comments here can be categorised one of the following solutions:
1) Get him sex.
2) Bribe him into behaving more socially (with something that he's interested in) and hope that it takes.
2a) Get him a job. Offer him tech toys for succeeding at it.
2b) Get him into sports (eg. martial arts) and offer him positive reenforcement for social behaviour.
Man am I glad I'm not the child. There are problems with all of these approaches.
1) Getting him sex. If he doesn't succeed you'll just make him feel worse about himself. If you pay for him to get it you're teaching him he's worthless. If he's not straight you'll also do damage pressuring him to conform with society. He may not be emmotionally mature enough to handle sex and all that comes with it. (You could get him suicidal over someone he builds a fantasy over if you're not careful for example). You're actually distracting him from his talent not helping him to fit it. Sexual behaviour has much more to it than learning to succeed at being a preditor. Let the poor kid develop at his own pace, introduce him to people his own age and get his social skills fixed and he'll not need you to be his pimp!
2a) This is only a good plan if he sees the job as worthwhile. He may not see menial labour as being worthwhile just as he probably doesn't see the need to conform. Once again you already know he doesn't have the social skills for normal interaction so why set him up to fail at something he's not ready for. If he doesn't succeed his precious toys you've bribed him with will be out of reach and he'll feel like a complete failure. Give him the social skills first.
2b) A little better IF you can get him interested AND you do something NON-COMPETITIVE. You want to build up his confidence, and you won't do that if he hasn't learnt how to fit in, and deal with succeess and failure first. Getting him interested MAY be very very difficult though, and if you force it he'll see you as the enemy as well.
Honestly what you want to do is find a hobby HE would be interested in that has a social aspect -something with a technical aspect would be ideal. Examples are boating, kite flying, photography. Try to stay away from PURELY technical hobbies like electronics, computing, sciences that tend to attract mostly males. He'll find his way into those himself. The ideal is something that both sexes participate in so he gets exposure to both men and women who do think differently (Note this is not to get him laid - this is to teach him to interact).
Now you need to sit him down and explain to him what the advantages are of interacting well. He won't be picked on, he'll make friends, aquaintances and collegues that will want to help him etc. If he's so inclined, tell him that you want him to play act the role of someone who'd fit in with people to see how people will behave - call it an experiment (but be sure he understands not to treat other people as lesser beings that aren't significant).
At the end of the day your best bet is going to be to get him to see that a small effort and getting into the habit of being more social will bring huge rewards in and of itself.
it isn't easy, but you always
a) Need to make him understand you're on his side. He can't feel like you're the enemy.
b) Emphasise the positive but do also point out the negative.
c) Correct him gently explaining why things don't work and how he could do things differently to feel more at ease and make people around him feel more at ease. Remember he doesn't have your social skills so what's obvious to you may not be to him.
Good luck. Not an easy one.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Once that's out of the way, more generic solutions are appropriate.
Get him a haircut and take him out for drink.
If he's scientifically-oriented, he needs to be convinced of the need to interact with other people in a way that they like. If you can make your case to him and show him examples of how better human-to-human interactions would benefit him, he'll want to learn how, because he'll want the benefits.
-- Fratz, human
That being said, it's important to keep in mind that it doesn't work if you're the only one laughing...
"I'm currently a Biotech undergrad..."
Then why are you making decisions regarding this person's social skills? Did someone ask you to decide if his social skills needed changing? Did his parents thell you they are and ask you to do so? I'm certain you're trying to be helpful, but helping someone who hasn't asked for it (or who didn't have someone in authority ask for it on their behalf) is called paternalism. It's disrespectful to the individual and/or the person's parent(s) or guardian(s).
If anyone needs to learn some social skills, it's the little bastards who won't leave the kid alone, as he obviously prefers. If he's that smart, he'll probably figure out just fine on his own how to behave around others, if he decides it's important enough for him to do so. If I were in your place I would simply serve as a role model for those other kids by accepting him as he is.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
don't build "social skills"
build self-care.
Are you trying to make him a mature genius or
a second-rate salesman?
How bout talking to him/her ABOUT math, science and computers? And otherwise try and share the same interests?
IT'S THE SAME #$%& WE DO HERE!!!! AARRRGG!!
There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority assailed by truth. ~John Kenneth Galbraith
Or if that's not his thing, and he isn't scared off by the new-agey fringers, yoga can work, too. Not for ass-kicking, but for getting in tune with his body, which, if he's a typical geek, is way out of whack.
One of the best insights I remember from Coupland's Microserfs was the talk about a geek's disconnection from his/her body. How it's just this thing we pay little attention to, and consequently, it does not serve us well. I'm a runner, too, but while that works on a stress-reduction level, I don't think it puts you in tune as well as a more precise discipline such as martial arts or yoga.
Beyond some frank discussion (everyone needs someone to tell them the truth about stuff), however, what more can you do? You can only do so much. In truth, a woman will change him -- for the better, if she's a good one. Let's face it, guys are extreme, and admirable for being extreme. We can live off very little and get by, and that lends itself to all kinds of single-minded dedication, and thus achievement, but women tend to bring temperance to what they touch. (again, the good ones). Just my $.02
Social skills are a two way street. Make sure that the people around him are interacting with him, too.
Today, I am a fairly stereotypical introverted nerd. However, I have heard from my family that I was actually a fairly extroverted kid.... until school. There I committed three sins: I was ugly (a tooth issue not diagnosed correctly until later), uncoordinated and couldn't play sports well (just nearsighted enough to ruin my depth perception, also undiagnosed for many years), and I knew stuff (could already read and do simple arithmetic in kindergarten). Hattrick.
I'm sure I wasn't a social wonder in kindergarten, but who is? My point is, I never had a chance. Now I'm introverted. What choice did I have?
Mind you, I'm happy enough with the outcome; you can't hear my tone so this might sound bitter. It's not; to me this is just how I am, I figured this out years later.
"But what about his hair?" Well, social skills form via feedback, which must be both positive and negative. If a kid is simply ejected from society at a young age, then he's never had an opportunity to learn about hair styling; he literally doesn't know about it. I recall not caring, either. So even to the extent that you may have a kid clueless, it may even be a result, not a cause.
Can society take the whole blame? Beats the tar out of me, but I doubt it. Maybe he's got a light case of Asperger's syndrome... I'm pretty sure I don't, though. But you can't write the effect of his society off, either. I recall trying to reconnect and being firmly ejected over and over.
How does this help? I don't know. Let me know if you find out. Seems people don't get mature enough to allow kids to re-enter society until somewhere around high-school. Getting out of his age group might help.
(Stuff like this makes me strongly sympathetic to the homeschooling system, which often involves significant out-of-age interaction, short-circuiting the need for every kindergarten class to reconstruct society from scratch; is it any surprise they get it so wrong? What do you expect from five-year-olds?)
On my 20th birthday I happened to meet my grade 3-5 teacher in a restaurant over lunch and he remarked how I had survived the social experiment that was my 'gifted class'. It wasn't until I managed to find and keep a girlfriend that I found out I was an arrogant ass-hole (why she's with me I'll never know). Since learning about social skills from my gf, I've discovered that the praise culture that develops in gifted classrooms leads to egomania among the students. Gifted students learn faster/better, but that doesn't make them special. They have other failings that average students may not have. I still have ego problems (I'll do just about anything for praise, and I have real problems internalizing criticism) but I'm better than I was. I don't know how any of what I've said answers your original question, but I guess I'm trying to say that teaching and raising 'gifted' kids is definitely not a solved problem.
I think humbleness is sorely lacking amongst people with talent. When you match humbleness with talent, you get people like Linus Torvalds. Check out this article at Wired. It was linked from the front page of Slashdot a while back but I'm too lazy to look for the link. The first sentence of the article is "Linus Torvalds wants me to believe he's too boring for this story." I kinda doubt someone like ESR would ever be the subject of an article that started out that way. Arrogance is a real problem amongst the geek culture, and I think it's arrogance that stands between many geeks and a thriving social life. I work as a co-op student at a local software company, and I'm fortunate to work with a few bright people--all graduates of computer programmes at a fairly prestigious university. The social lives of my co-workers are just about inversly proportional to their level of arrogance.
Perhaps it is the socially-skilled people who curtail their arrogance, and not the humble people who garner lots of friends--I can't determine causation from correlation--but it's obvious to me that the two attributes go hand in hand, and I think it's telling that my circle of friends has a rather narrow radius whereas my ego sometimes gets stuck on the doorframe.
Ian
What is the great need to 'change' him, so that he 'fits in better' with 'normal people'.
Let the fucking kid be himself, and allow him to be proud of who is is. Allow him to grow into whatever personality he is most comfortable with.
What are you talking about "many of us" nerd. I was and will always be a pure playa till the end. :P
But since we can assume these kids are rather intellectual, perhaps that intelligence bridges the gap into no math/sci categories. Any kid with a slight interest in the humanities could be appealed to on the level of social justice. Sure kids made fun of of us when we were younger, but as persons, we still have a debt to humanity (IMHO). And, to be honest, I see a lot of geek-types who deserve it. Let's face it...we're damn smart, but we can throw that in people's faces a lot...and that's just as uncool as what others did/do to us. So why learn social skills? Because we owe it to others to do so. Plus everyone is right about getting some...that definately payed off. :-)
Every windows user is a sadomasochist.
To be honest you probrably can't help this kid out. What will happen is the kids will see you helping him out and tease him for that. The parents also are most likely reinforcing the behavior that gets him socially outcast at home. A better approach is to inform teachers, guidance counselors, and possibly parents of your concerns. A one person battle against personal upkeep and social ineptness is likely not going to work.
I think that might be a bit of a problem. It's easier to say to a small groups "relate to each other" rather than to say "relate with the world" to one person. It's a smaller, more managable challenge.
And, of course, if that small group is geek-intensive, each individual is likely to be a thornier person to relate to than most.
And, in a related note, I've noticed that geek interaction can be incredibly put-down related, because geeks love the verbal wordplay. In the past, I was the weakest of the combat punsters among my group, but my standard, weak comebacks would label me as mean among non-geek friends.
While I think Karate (martial arts) is not a bad idea, some kids may be intimidated by the physical demands. Another alternative is getting them involved in some beginning acting class. Many community theatres offers such classes, specifically targeted at young kids. Not only will this help break down 'social walls' with a group of others, but one big advantage of acting is that it gives significant focus to the other side of the brain (right side is creative/emotional, left side is logical IIRC), which I find is often neglected in kids with high intelligence.
I'm offering this from personal experience. I was definitely a brainy kid, and terrified at the thought of being on stage/speaking in front of people. Then I ended up in a Drama class. I was terrified at first, but after we did a show, even though I only had a small role, I was completely hooked and still do it to this day. I now believe that I have a great balance of left and right brain talents, and I really feel it has served me well in both the technical and social world.
If he is a proto-geek who shuns sunlight, air and water - go white water rafting, cycling, throw a frisbee around, bush walking, whatever.
As people expand their horizons they become more confident in dealing with a broader range of life experiences - including people and the strange conventions we insist on following.
Oh the other side of this is the absolute reprehensible sexual segregation in many schools. They allow no contact between boys and girls during their formative years, then are surprised when they don't have a fucking clue how to interact woth each other...
Q
Insert Signature Here
Any chance the kid has Asperger's Syndrome? Its something to look into given the behavior you describe. I've never bothered with the formal diagnosis since I've pretty much established my niche in life but the things you describe sound very, very familiar to me.
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
I don't know if you'll be able to apply this lesson. It all depends on who you know, really (so, how are YOUR people skills?)
.com boom, and bring myself to the .com bust era for a few days. I'd point out the people who still have their programming jobs. Are they the people who're the best, and the brightest? No. They're the people who are tight with their boss, or whom have invaluable skills that no one else knows, or both. The former do less work, for more perks. And of the the people getting programming jobs today, most are doing it through recommendations of their contacts they kept in college, or even high school. In a time of reduced science budgets, I'm guessing that's also true for many of the hard sciences, which your student may be interested in if he's not looking at programming.
If I could, I'd travel back in time while I was working as an intern at these great telecom companies during the
If I had time after that, I'd either go to one of those trade shows where they have the CEOs walking around and trying to steal each other's ideas, or go meet some people who've started a business and kept it afloat for past 3 years. Afterwords, point out the energy these people have, and more importantly, how they can get other people to feel that energy.
You might not be able to do all that, though, either because of lack of time or resources. So another way to do it is not to throw him into a sport he doesn't like (if you HATE something, you're not learning how to do better. You're too busy thinking "I hate this!"), but find a club that a> matches his personality, and b> has a defined goal. If that does happen to be a sport, all well and good. If he likes debate, something like Model UN or Mock Trial works just as well. If he's ambitious, go for a entrepreneur's club. In any case, you want to be able to sit down afterwords, and ask him why the winners won, and the losers lost (or didn't make nearly as much money, and so forth).
The point is, it's difficult to motivate a person when he doesn't know what he wants to do. And most kids not yet in college don't know what they want to do. But many of them do NOT want to work at McD's, be a garbage man, be a valet parking attendant, or what not. If your bright student is one of those, it's better to show him the kind people who are doing well at the sort of things he wants to do, and compare that to the people who are not doing well.
Seriously. I'm sure that some slashdotters will start saying stuff like, "hang out with like minded individuals", "the other kids are just jealous", etc. However, none of this will really help the kid as much as just combing his hair. In fact if he's smart enough he'll see fitting in as another intellectual challenge. If he's as gifted as you say, then I'm sure he has a lot of interests and ambitions that he can share with his peers. Make him understand that being intelligent in this world is great, but being intelligent, sociable and athletic would put the world at his feet. Your looks, dress and behavior get you in the door but people respect you for your character and intellect. Get him to pay more attention to his clothes, looks and current events. Make sure he knows the latest fads, make him do sports like martial arts, swimming or team sports. Those will build his self confidence as well as health and looks. Just let the kid know that being a well rounded individual will make him appreciate his knowledge of the world so much more then being a closed off hermit. For a kid like that fitting in would be an exercise in self control and intellectual improvement. Nothing would excercise his brain more then understanding those extrememly complex mases of social interaction in a school :). In the end it should be a breeze as long as he is aware of what he's doing. Make it a simple socialogical fact, people want to hang around with winners, those who are good at doing stuff whether it's sports, conversation, or knowldedge. Make him year to excell at those and people will flock to him. Just make sure that he understands that to be successfull and achieve his ambitions he needs to be both intellectually and sociably knowledgable.
Did it ever occur to you that this person is quite well aware of what makes him different. He knows people laugh at his hair and make fun of him for various reasons.
He just doesn't care.
In fact, he may well prefer it that way.
By the way, what's a comb?
It isn't an issue of "being different." The problem faced by children with Asberger's is a sometimes crippling uncertainty about what others expect in social situations. Basic greetings, smalltalk, social formalities, subtext and nuance are all difficult for these children to grasp. The problems easily follow them into adulthood. It is useful to identify this condition because it is possible to help children with Asbergers. Through special instruction, they can be taught to interact confidently and successfully with other children. They can still be themselves, but they can learn to interact more gracefully with their peers. I agree that the condition seems quite common. I'm certain it describes me, and it probably describes many if not most of my friends. I was always very depressed as a child about my own inability to function socially. My "differentness" wasn't what depressed me. I just never knew how to act. It was something I couldn't do. It took me until high school before I figured out enough to even make close friends. Now I read that kids can overcome this. The therapies I've read about simply explain the social graces in laborious detail, with rehearsals and thorough explanations. I think its a great idea. I wish I had that.
"Tell him he might have to wind up running human emotions under emulation if necessary.
Not knowing what the hell is wrong with him will stress him a lot more than having something, anything, he can deal with."
Maybe this is an improper or even crass question, but when exactly did it become popular for everyone to have a pet disorder? It's really quite pathetic. No one is a bit shy anymore, they have Asperger's syndrome, no one feels under the weather for a time, they have chronic fatigue syndrome, no one dreads going to work in a drab boring office tower, they suffer from sick building syndrome etc. If you want to teach him about Asperger's syndrome, do him a bigger favor and also teach him about how certain psychoanalytical trends have all the earmarks of fad diagnoses.
I submit that what you have proposed here is possibly the worst solution to a kids problem of shyness (even if it's to the point of 'painful' shyness). Telling him: you have X syndrome, you better learn to deal with it now so you can start spending the rest of your life "running human emotions under emulation" is downright depressing and gives him an excuse to throw his hands up and essentially absolve himself of any personal responsibility to remedy his situation.
Would it not be better to provide guidance on how to have REAL relationships with people, find friends of his own interest and maybe gradually introduce him to participation in fun activities with his own peer group??
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
I can not say what would be best or in the best interest of your student, so I can only speak from my own experiences....
Sports: doesn't work - I played all my life and even if you are the best on the team (as often happened to me in rec-leagues since I would just miss the school team), if people have already made up your mind about you, the only talking people are going to do to you is to say "give me the ball".
Intellectual Clubs: (Chess Club, Math Club, GNU/Linux Club ect.) Here he may have a better shot as people will recognize his abilities and may want to learn form him - but once again if he's just too strange or people already have premonitions about him, it will be a painfully slow process.
Theater: Provided that your student isn't shy, or that he pretend not to be shy when asked to act so, this probably would be his healthiest bet. Most of the time until I joined a drama club I was very quiet, but if I did speak, I was often pegged as weird - either because it was, or because I had over analyzed something to the point where no one could draw a connection to the subject being discussed. The theater people seemed to catch on to obscure references a little bit better and occasionally everyone would actually understand me or at least one person that could actually explain it. Further the creative atmosphere in witch actors work leaves little room for criticism on ones odd behaviors, leaving one of the most open minded communities one can find with out the use of drugs.
Which leads me to:
DRUGS: I'm sure this has been said at least a few times before in this post (and probably will be some more before I can finish typing this). If you can get him to do them with some other open-minded people, they'll likely see him for who he is and befriend him. It's hard to write someone extremely intelligent off when you're trippin'. I prefer Acid and Ecstasy my self and really hate POT as most people I know who do it are less motivated (likely as a direct result of the effects of using the drug), however any drug should due as it's a life-alerting experience. If you want to keep it semi-legal have him drink take about 5 times the normal dose of maximum strength robotussin, then drag him into a rave and let the candy kids do their thing (they'll talk to any one - especially the ones just learning how to use their light sticks as they want to perform for anyone who will let them).
"Drugs are good, because when you do them people think that you are cool" -NOFX
How did this get modded insightful?
Isolating children from peers and reality is not a good way to impart social skills. Communicating to them from a young age that they're special and better than other people is a negative towards producing functional adults.
My wife had very large breasts in high school. Wasn't her fault, it was those damn hormones. She had the biggest boobs in school.
High school boys would routinely try and make "3 pointers" down her blouse at school. It got to the point where she begged her mother to let her enroll in an all girls private catholic school.
At the all girls school, nobody kicked anyones ass, unless they wanted suspension. Everyone wore uniforms so there were no "fashion cliques", no "Jocks", no "nerds" Everyone was study focused and oriented, balanced with studies on religion and philosophy.
After that she never had any problems again. Before I met her I always thought it was bad to send kids to private schools, being that I went to all public myself. After hearing her experience though, I would have to agree with her. I wouldn't hesitate to isolate my daughter from a "problem" group
One cheap way to develope his social skills is by introducing him to sociology (non-computer field? Evil!). Have him read books on acculturation and ask him to observe how people behave based on how they were raised. Why are the popular kids popular? Why are geeks looked down on? Just have him pay attention to that and he can see how people are effected by societal factors. Gifted kids need more social attention anyways.
My theory on this is that most geeks are mildly autistic (though obviously not to the degree most people associate with autism.) Before you get up in arms, think about it. Obviously there are varying degrees of autism, but all of them affect social interactions in some sort of way. A lot of "gifted" kids put a lot of time into solitary efforts, which may be why they seem so academically gifted. I was always considered "gifted," but when I was a child I exhibited a lot of (mild) autistic tendencies, such as I hated being touched, would often act inappropriately in social situations, was obsessed with "classifying" things, etc. This may also help explain the extreme gender gap in the tech sector, as autism is about four times more prevalent in males than it is in females.
Keep in mind I have no authority on this subject, I'm just a geek who's noticed a few things that seem a little more than coincidental (such as the abnormally high rate of autism and asperger's syndrome in children of tech sector employees) and pulled some theory out of his ass, but I'd be interested to see a bit more scientific study of something like this. Does anyone else have any more information on this subject?
you just described me back in middle school. You might want to read "The Achievement of Desire" by Richard Rodriguez. It explains alot about academic students who are brilliant, but can only exist as students. This text will help you out MORE THAN SLASHDOT. I'd say the best way for the student to develope social skills would be to develope his intrest in a positive way, then introduce the student to students with a similar intrest in a non-competitive form of interaction. Then find and introduce the half-geek & half-socialable (trendy, popular, however you want to describe them) kids. Or just let them hang out with some cool adults far away from the corprate world as possable. Perhaps the student can find some other non academic intrest. Their goal is to understand that social skills and communication are a vital part of their lives. (what good is being able to mathamatically explain everything in the universe if you cant communicate or share it with everyone else. or worse refuse to share.) Quake did wonders for me! (although Doom did raise concerns among teachers.) Never under estimate the power of Quake Con :0)
Social skills are not something that is just learned. It is a physical part of the brain. Something that these very smart kids often don't have because other things are taking up the space. For dealing with situations I would have him read Akido in Everyday Life. It reframes the situation to something similar to a geometric equation. It is not, how do I say something meaner, but how do I help this person, this is anti-productive and unhealthily for both of us.
To nurture his limited social skills place him with like children. They will change him enough. Practice will only make his social skills better. Remember your first girlfriend, job, group of friends? It got easier after the first time, and easier after that. However he will probably never be as good at it as most. It is important he can deal with those people that are mean to him. That is what Aikido is for, dealing with the situation, and ventually turning that person into something as close to a friend as one can get. that will change him. People hang out with like people, they are happier that way.
To some School IS everything, teach him it is NOT! The problem with school is that the fringe is a very small group because of the four year age range and the forced nature of schooling. It is like a job, with immature people, who get away with shit they never would at a job. Make his life outside of school more improtant, move him to a better, maybe magnet school. Many schools have "release" time where they can go to special places. Set this up at the end of school so he can spend some time somewhere he is accepted.
Enough of this Disney shit people, even though he is not a woman and probably not gay, we try to change ourselves to much for others. We do no need to change our physical self to extreme measures, loose our ability to talk, leave our family, friends, home, everything we know, change our culture, and side with the WORST POSSIBLE PEOPLE for others. Let alone a cute guy you saw for twenty seconds. This is what culture feeds us subconsciously.
Sorry if some of this does not make sense, some is just old anger.
Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
There's some software called "Mind Reading" from here (warning: don't even try to order from there, it's a mess), developed at Cambridge. It helps people figure out what emotions others are expressing. That is a key social skill that super-smart people tend not to have, it's suitable for children.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
tell them now.
forget working in IT, unless you want to go work with smelly indians and work for $1.50 per hour
And if he has Aspergers, especially furry fandom. No, I'm serious, and it's not because of prior comments about how some people think your pupil needs to get laid - I know at least half a dozen Aspies who are furry fans, and they feel like they fit in a little better with it. This thread on alt.lifestyle.furry is what prompted me to mention this.
This sig no verb.
try doing some of the things he likes and maybe he will start wanting to do the things you like.
Jeoin
http://science.slashdot.org/science/04/03/08/23402 06.shtml
I refreshed and there it was, then it disappeared. I was not logged in. And there was one reply. Interesting, did the reply make it in before the article was posted? Or was it before teh retraction. Quite a lengthy reply for such a small time frame...
Lots of very smart people are gifted at one discipline because they have used their brain power to compensate for a disability.
My daughter (who is book geeky) has lots of those same issues. She has also been diagnosed with something called sensory integration disorder. We didn't really realize she had something very wrong with her till she was about 11...before that she used her brain power to get by in school. Around 11 the social skills are more important than anything else, and she couldn't cope.
She still has problems now, but it took alot of training and reasoning with her to get her on a schedule for basic hygiene. (Schedules are good....routines are good....sameness is good).
As long as the kid has amazing support at home, there may not be alot you can do. Having brains is a lifesaver...I can't imagine what my daughter would have done if she wasn't so smart. I am hoping at college she will fit in better.
So, in conclusiong, google "sensory integration disorder" and "nonverbal learning disorder". And be happy the kid is smart. There could be worse things.
Pardon me for pointing this out, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
I agree that many people apply a very narrow view of what is normal. However, to conjecture based soley upon this observations that the entire psychological community is full of crap (which is, in effect, what you are saying by suggesting that Asperger's is simply a label to describe a different type of normal) is just ignorant.
The important point here is that this is a well described syndrome that can be treated both with behavioral and pharmacological techniques. This site seems to be a pretty good reference to the condition.
Note: I am not a psychologist nor should my opinion be construed as advice. My wife, however, is a therapist who specializes in adolescent psychology, so I am not just making this up as I go.
I will point you to a well-reasoned essay by Paul Graham entitled Why Nerds Are Unpopular.
making friends with other kids who were like me helped a bit in elementary school, but what really made me develop was when i joined the boy scouts in 6th grade. suddenly i had to deal with a lot of kids older than me and kids my age who were all being pushed to achieve, to do well, to learn. the kid will learn the book smarts stuff, like nature identification, knot tying, and procedural stuff, and the bigger kids or any other kids who don't have the heads for that kind of knowledge can learn from him and also help him out with the physical/appearance aspect of scouting (class a uniform appearance, backpacking, manual labor). there's nothing like being forced to work with others toward a common goal to make people learn from each other.
do doesn't anyone get a kick out of noticing that many of the comments have suggested things like video games for improving social skills?
Both of these came from Slashdot
why nerds are unpopular
Slashdot on Aspergers The word has a P in it not a B!
I think what helped me the most, putting social skills into practice was joining a toastmasters organisation, meetings include regular and positive feedback on your communication skills, with the self restraint imposed by people who know they're going to be next on the "evaluation" roster.
Most nerds are never going to be interested in doing what it takes to be popular all the time, there are just so many other things that are more important. But they can be taught what it takes to get a "normal" person's attention and help when they need it. Basic psychology would help. The other thing is they need to learn that there are a lot more lies out there than truth. What is in novels about heros is much more how the writer (usually another nerd) wishes the world would be, not how it actually is.
The most important thing a kid can learn is that humans aren't the least bit rational or reasonable. They're often emotionally or chemically driven. Example, you might be explaining perfectly rationally why it is important to have a van for work, but your boss may have just experienced a tradgedy involving vans and refuses to budge. You might present to a committee, that preventing accidents costs less than cleaning up after them. But all the committee will see is a cost now that might not be a cost later (they're wrong but they won't see it).
Nerds like everyone else, operate well on the whats-in-it-for-me. They know not to judge a book by its cover. They may not know that everybody does judge a book by its cover - at least at first. So to get a kid to take time over his appearance is as simple as getting him or her to understand that s/he will be teased if s/he doesn't make any effort get it right.
Only put your hand up in class to answer a question once per lesson.
Don't make it obvious that you know heaps more than other kids. They will be annoyed and then nasty.
Do help the slower kids, and do keep this quiet. Helping other kids helps you develop social skills and it also helps you learn, and it helps keep the whole class moving a bit quicker.
If your class is going too slowly (you're bored), do ask your teacher for extra reading/exercises, and do it in class - you will earn points with your peers for appearing to not be paying attention.
Remember the right university will be full of kids just like you, and all these stupid kids in school won't matter any more - except when you're trying to get a research grant.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
WTF happened to it?
Get him or her involved in real, intellectually-stimulating work. I don't know if you are involved in undergraduate research at your institution, but if not, do so, and bring your young friend along. Both of you will find that real work requires a lot of social interaction, yet it is in a structured and meaningful environment, and hence less awkward for shy gifted youth. Many of the researchers may even have gone through a similar phase in their own life, and will be able to relate better with your young friend than some of his age-peers may. Often, and as it appears to be in this situation, the problem for bright youngsters is that they are much more intellectually mature than others their age, not more mature, or sometimes even less mature, in other respects. Interesting work should make your friend want to interact socially with people that can be very positive role models, and as a consequence, also learn more about social interaction. Even if he or she is reticent to adapt based on osmosis alone, witnessing the intellectual similitude should build trust in your and other co-workers' advice about social situations and advancement. It may be a real eye-opener that even in science, being appealing, a bit of a joker, and generally getting along really helps to advance your ideas.
THE NERD IS THE COMPUTER.
Teach the kid how to throw a wicked right hook. The other kids will stop making fun of his hair and start cooperating with HIM (the way it should be if he's the smart one) within the week, guaranteed.
`which fortune`
I used to be shy and I think that sorta led to my Geekyness. When i was about 10, my mum sent me to Scouts. It changed my life. Not right away, but gradually over the last 11 years. I learnt how to interact with others and it built my confidence to no end. I think it was around 15 when i turned into an extrovert, and I am still with the organization to this day.
Plus as a related note, you meet a lot of chicks on camp (well not in the backward US) that have something in common and that improved social skills to no-end.
Sign him up for the Boy Scouts. It helped me. Then introduce him to girls.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
...does he suffer from being alone ? Or is he only annoyed by people making fun of his brushing ?
I mean, social skills is not always essential for a good-living. When I was around 12 years old, a girl told me I was probably very sad to have so poor social abilities, and that if she were me, she would cry every night in her bed. It was a great surprise because this question never came to my mind before, and I did not suffer from this at all. Still today, if I now have some friends, I tend to accept only mainly intellectual relationships ; I don't care about their social/private life, nor do I about their clothes, favorite sport team or pet. No.
Well, I not going to expose my whole-life on slashdot. But I just wanted to say this issue does matter only if he has problems establishing relations, and if he does want to. May be people should admit there are people who simply don't care.
Sometimes nothing will motivate someone like that to interact. Why would they? What will they get out of it? When I was a kid, I had no friends.. and I really didn't care. I was diagnosed as depressed and everything else, but I really just didn't get anything out of dealing with people who were pretty much retarded in my eyes.
However.. when I got older.. I needed things from people. Sex, money, rock & roll, etc. And so, I learned to just make that into another type of game I suppose. If he's so gifted, he'll figure out he needs to comb his hair before he goes to interview. But why should he give a shit if some kids who will grow up to be garbage men and roofers make fun of his hair now?
I was a kid much like this in junior high: smart, but totally lacking in social skills. So I tried to be with the crowd, like what others liked, etc. It took a random introduction to my now-best friend to make me realize what I was missing. So here's some suggestions for the kid:
1. Find what he likes and encourage him to do it. If this means role-playing games, so be it. If it's sports, or chess, or whatever, the important thing is that he enjoys it.
2. Use that activity to make friends. I would be willing to bet that whatever he turns out to like, there are people worth knowing participating as well.
3. Encourage him to ignore anyone who teases or laughs at him for doing that activity. There will always be tormentors, especially for kids like this one, and you just have to learn to tune it out.
For me, it was Magic: the Gathering, Boy Scouts, church, and friends who were into the same sort of stuff that built my social skills to a (I believe) reasonably acceptable level.
The peers of a "gifted" child are other gifted children. (Just as the peers of a mentally retarded/challenged/(insert PC term of the month here) child are other retarded children.)
Does that mean that kids should only interact with their peers? Of course not. But they are most likely to be comfortable, and best able to start to develop social skills, among people with whom they have things in common. Getting into "gifted and talented" classes changed my life - suddenly I had people to talk to.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
--as in: describe an attribute (current hairstyle = unkempt); take baseline data. ("how many times I was taunted by classmates today.); change attribute; take data. Or else turn it into a social engineering exercise.
I agree that it is not a disorder, and I am confident that it will be realised eventually when we all understand each other and dance naked among the trees and wild animals and all that great stuff. Until then a rose by any other name is fine by me.
Give him an object lesson.
Take him to a UNISYS engineers picnic, with plenty of grizzled, overweight ADA programmers who don't have the social skills of a gila monster.
Explain to him that this is what he is doomed to become unless he does things like comb his hair.
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Really, after the climactic shift occurs in less than 20 years, the nukes will be flying and worrying about who is popular or not will not make a lick of difference.
anata sekai o kakumei surush ga nai deshou? Anata no susumu michi wa yoi shite arimasu.
It isn't "similar" in nature to autism, it IS a form of autism -- the experts agree at this point on that. Autistics that have gained speech, autistics that are nonverbal but can write, and Aspergers autistics are all in close communication online these days, and it's impossible to distinguish between us. There's more variation in type between individuals in the same "category" than there is between the different forms.
I completely agree that it's possibly what the student in question has, though -- that's what immediately came to my mind as well.
I hate to admit this as an unemployed geek who hates wage slavery, but I think young geeks will learn social skills if they get a job working with the public. I was a geek in high school and one of my first jobs was at a theme park. When you have to work with the public, you learn social skills prety fast. But I had to get a job in order to pay for things I wanted, so I'm also wondering if part of the problem is parents who give their geek kids money and toys. There is little incentive to get a job when mom and dad give you money for the latest computer equipment.
When most kids are growing up, they typically develop social skills because they're motivated to learn from each other and to compete for social status.
Some kids are "introverted" in that they intuitively feel that it is a better use of their mental resources to think things through by themselves then to interact and learn from others. This, unfortunately, tends to mean they don't fully appreciate the necessity of competing for social status.
What helped me, granted this was in college, was analyzing social interaction and using my analytical strength to an advantage in that primarily intuitive realm. Learn the social status markers for a given culture. Understand that body language communicates oceans of information on a subliminal level regarding dominance and sexual issues; realize that most people interact primarily on that level and not in an abstract logical level.
Basically, instead of just trying to develop the intuitive skills that most people develop instinctively, use your analytical mind to analyze the patterns of that interaction and the signals behind the behavior.
iami
...within.
:)
:)
;)
For me growing up there were two things that helped.
The first has been mentioned alot, sport; specifically martial arts and cricket... I also cycled but that did little for social skills
However, the thing that helped most as a young teenager was when a mentor encouraged me to build a model, a mental macro if you will, of "normal" social behaviour. I then would run this model as a simulation before taking action (for a bright kid, this is a brief second or so of introspection before answering); It worked fantastically well (I managed to integrate with a large number of peers rapidly after learning this technique).
Neurotypicals are fairly consistent in their social responses, I still dont *get* social politics, I doubt I ever will, but I can *predict* (predict isn't the best word, approximate, perhaps) the response to an action or comment based on past observations and this "mental macro"; and most of social interaction is based on acting and concealing the truth/opinions in any case, one of the first things I observed was the greatest negative response came when I answered polite interogatories with truth/fact (how do I look? what do you think of my new *insert object*?) etc
Of course, this assumes you are dealing with an Asberger's case like myself or something similar.
You will still encounter gifted neurotypicals who have no inherent deficiency in relation to social interaction, they are just to arrogant and inconsiderate to care either way... people like this can't be helped.
Of course, I could just be full of shit
hope this helps
err!
jak
Oh dear, who combs their hair these days!?
Seriously, it depends on the age. If they're out of high school, all the old "trying to be cool" gear has usually disappeared and people will tend to be more appreciative of people being who they are. In that case, I'd encourage the nerd to just be themselves. Don't treat a gorgeous girl as some idol and fall over themselves with nerves, but as a person with interests and goals.
Now, if they're still in high school, then, well, you're best bet is to give them a makeover and tell them to get into any cliquey groups they can!
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
I remember a few other stories that where covered here, including: Slashdot | Why geek geniuses may lack social graces, Slashdot | How To Deal With (Techie) Prima Donnas and another one which I cannot find. I looked for smart kids sports and excerise.
...buy the kid a comb and teach him how to use it, for starters. And while you're at it, teach the kid about good physical hygiene, if he doesn't already know.
We don't live in a world where the "content of one's character" is the only thing we're judged by. Oftentimes we're judged by our outward appearance. This can make the difference between getting the job or not, getting the hot girl who lives next door or not, etc.
Not only that, teach the kid how to interact with others, i.e., how to make small talk.
And yes, having the other kids who hassle him disciplined is also appropriate. You'd be doing those little a*holes a favor, since that kind of crap isn't (normally) tolerated in the workplace. Better they learn their lesson sooner rather than later.
I think if you could take the child to a church without masons but with God then the social skills will grow. To quote Bob Marley,
"I mean it, when I analyze the stench -To me it makes a lot of sense:How the Dreadlock Rasta was the Buffalo Soldier,And he was taken from Africa, brought to America,Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival."
I think we live in plastic worlds without God and the hope of people is in community and for that to exist with proper social skills and respect of others we must first be humble and respect God. Not join secret cults as Bush and Kerry but be honest and good and free and with"favos"(greek for respect) for God. But without these no tie, shirt, coat or haircut will make a difference.
"Said he was a Buffalo Soldier win the war for America;Buffalo Soldier, Dreadlock Rasta,Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;Driven from the mainland to the heart of the Caribbean."
( X=flag of St. Andrew) cherish the memory of St. Andrew both you Confederate Southerners and people of Jamaica for he was and is the flag of you both and the future of the children is in your hands. Remember Ethiopia and eritrea people of Jamaica and Scotland you US Confederates and the common flag of Andrew for both that rose in Christ for we all fight a larger battle than just that which Bob Marley spoke for they want to take your soul and you must be faithful until the end.God(The one who isn't the serpent of "wisdom" Lucifer-Samael) Bless,rod
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/
Generally when socializing for fun there isn't a set job that needs to be accomplished, nobody has to interact and people can leave. In such cases I've often found myself not having any clue what to say/do and then just not interacting or even leaving.
Group activity can only really be an introduction to socializing.
..he should have zero difficulty understanding why he creates distance between himself and 'other' children.
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In my experience, many "geeks" have a huge amount of academic intelligence but poor social intelligence. So when it comes to improving their social skills, it's like teaching your grandmother how to configure a router. Possible, but likely painful.
The thing with all the different intelligence/ability types is that people usually learn to avoid the areas where they're weak because it's a recipe for humiliation. How many jocks study advanced maths for example? I don't buy the argument that nerds are poor at social skills because they're not interested. I think they're very interested - they just haven't got a clue!
I guess the best approach is to get your charge into an environment that's outside his usual peer group but still in an environment where he won't be put down or discouraged.
One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there
Why are you asking us about social skills? Unless you mean w/ other geeks and technology.
Kinda like a guy who's never had a woman, telling a guy how to get women.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
Especially with attention to the example of asynchronous communications as seen in modems.
When this was well understood I would illustrate how this example of communications technology applies elsewhere.
When you receive an inbound signal you need to send an ack in a form that is both appropriate and understandable to the sender. If there is a signal error, this must also be indicated.
When sending data, you must allow the receiver to send return acks or half acks (i.e, got it! continue!)
Worked out in enough detail, you could develop a technology of manners based on the above.
You could even develop exercises to develope these skills, depending on what component part of the communications protocol is not being implemented correctly, as seen by the crashes taking place on the communication lines.
But this sounds suspiciously like trying to apply the thinking of technology to life, and some social workers and shrinks won't like the competition.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Absolutely don't hang out on slashdot... and don't take the advice of people that do.
Just smoke a big, fat joint of green, tasty bud with him.
Bill Clinton
Introverts are sometimes uncomfortable (terrorized in extreme cases) in larger group social settings. The problem is, most social activity is organzied by extroverts... to them, the bigger the group the better. They draw energy from social interaction and don't understand this concept at all. Introverts generally expend energy and social interaction leaves them drained. Try finding a setting where he can interact... preferably including extroverts with at least some similar interests because they will reach out, but in a small group setting.
Leisure Suit Larry.
Within a year of playing it he'll be asking out girls every single night - even multiple girls at the same time. You'll have invented a monster. that is the secret I think to creating socail skill - you have to give them a reason. In most peoples cases it is undoubtfully sex (or want of it). Get the kid a girlfriend and he'll straighten out in not time. (I'm assuming the kid is actually old enough to have a girlfriend and a real relationship.)
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Then I went to college, and lived in the dorms. It was an honors dorm, and I wish i would have socialized MORE, but I still did an incredible job.
What happened the next summer for me? I couldn't get out of my basement soon enough! I was SO bored and lonely... i wanted to run next door and talk to the kids. I missed college life, and couldn't wait to get back to school.
So dorm life's what did it for me. Now in my 4th year of school, I have such an incredible group of friends that I can't fit everyone into my cell phone. And i'm not in a lame ass frat either.
However, looking back even further, I was MUCH more anti-social in 6th/7th grade. Was too smart for my own good sometimes. How did i start meeting those high school friends? Video games and Magic Cards! It did work for me -- and we did quickly outgrow it and start hanging out with girls around 9th grade.
So to make a long story short, you can't do this in a semester. But foster some of the skills so that this kid doesn't get lost. It definitely took time for me, but now I could honestly care less about my engineering classes and just want to go partying with my friends (bertopics.afraid.org if you want to see how out of control we get)... and I couldn't be happier.
PS: one last thing - have him do a nerd-friendly sport. Mine was swimming, and I now play water polo at school. Martial arts are also recommended, I was in the ju-jitsu club for quite a while too. Don't let that stuff get to his head though.
Berto
That's horrible advice. A better idea would be to get him or her involved in real, intellectually-stimulating work. I don't know if you are involved in undergraduate research at your institution, but if not, do so, and bring your young friend along. Both of you will find that real work requires a lot of social interaction, yet it is in a structured and meaningful environment, and hence less awkward for shy gifted youth. Many of the researchers may even have gone through a similar phase in their own life, and will be able to relate better with your young friend than some of his age-peers may. Often, and as it appears to be in this situation, the problem for bright youngsters is that they are much more intellectually mature than others their age, not more mature, or sometimes even less mature, in other respects. Interesting work should make your friend want to interact socially with people that can be very positive role models, and as a consequence, also learn more about social interaction. Even if he or she is reticent to adapt based on osmosis alone, witnessing the intellectual similitude should build trust in your and other co-workers' advice about social situations and advancement. It may be a real eye-opener that even in science, being appealing, a bit of a joker, and generally getting along really helps to advance your ideas.
THE NERD IS THE COMPUTER.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
No offense, but being used by the popular kids is going to do nothing to help either of them.
The popular kid might respect him as intelligent, in the same way they respect a dictionary. But they won't care about him as a person. As for the smart kid, all he'll ever get out of that kind of group work is the knowledge that others will only slow him down.
The way to make group work useful for development is to make *him* dependent on his group, and not hating that fact. This only happens when his peers are as competent as he. Put him in a group that will actually take him farther than he would have gone on his own, and he'll learn something. Otherwise all he'll learn is how to get people to shut up and let him do his work.
I think that exposure to politics can help develop social skills. Is there any "situation" which you might be able to create that would force him to participate in a political organization?
If you can structure the political involvement so that is a means to a worthy end then that may motivate him. He may view the participation as a game, but it will force analysis and self reflection which of course will cause him to learn how to function with lesser beings (comb hair, brush teeth, wear clean clothes etc...) .
The problem isn't that he is incapable, the problem is that he choses not to focus on social skills. I am not convinced that this behavior is always as simple as a lack of self confidence or poor self image. Sometimes it's simply a "lack of caring problem". I know other have suggested the old standards, "Dale Carnegie", "Martial Arts".... Let us know how it goes and what worked.
You might want to get him involved in community service at a local hospital or some sort of charity organization. Those programs sometimes have programs for younger children, and help greatly in developing social skills. I worked at a hosital and just meeting different people around the job changed the way I interacted with people greatly. Plus, it's a good thing to do, and it's an even better thing to start someone getting involved in the world around them and helping others. If this goes bad, you can always try some MMORPG and hope he goes to one of those meet-your-guild parties in Indiana....
One of the things about D&D that helped me to realize that my social skills were lacking at the time I started playing it was the character stats.
When the DM went over the stats, and what they were for, and *WHY* the stats mattered in the game, he helped me to think, what would *MY* stats be, and how would that affect my game - or more accurately, real life.
Once they begin to realize that social skills (or Charisma for the D&D analogy) are important, you can direct them to resources such as Dale Carnagies "how to win friends and influence people". The thing is, you have to give them a reason to want to have social skills. At a certain stage they probably are vhemently against developing social skills because of just how different they are.
Get them to realize why "charisma" is important, and they will be intelligent enough to start researching this stuff on their own. D&D is not a bad way to start.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
I was one of the lucky ones... I convinced my high school principle to let me take advantage of the local colleges early admit programs -- at age 15. The work there was a LOT more fun, although I wish I could have found a *real* mentor.
... Yes, these are all geeky, but maybe there is something that sparks their interest like theater lite and sound technition (now there is a great place to meet some chicks ;-)
...)
Second idea, is to start come up with a group project and work on the communication skills. Depending on the interest, Robowars, HAM radio, game programing,
Real world apps are also great to start mentoring for their interests (eg. programming: teach some algorithms and data structures, gaming: game theory and computer graphics,
Now for a nonsequator... In a funny way this reminds me of two seperate incidents. The first with an old girlfriend's daughter. She was "the babe" of the local jr. high. She was always complaining that none of the guys knew how to treat a girl. One day I said that I could tell her the secret on how to find a "nice guy": find the geek, tell him *exactly* what it will take to make and keep you happy, and I could just about guarantee that he will do *everything* in his power to keep the *babe* happy! The second story is about a brainy geek and his friends who watched how all the jocks treated the girls... They decided on an experiment. Ignore them, treat them like hell (little things like standing up a date, taking another date out to a place you know the girl you dated last night will be...) and you know what? Ol' Rob had more dates the rest of the year than he had the previous DECADE!
Be clear what kind of social skills you want to teach.
The easisest way to help is to hang out with him, take him places that will want him to look,act nicer. It is'nt tough just give him little hints and your cattipillar will turn into a butterfly
since "social skills" appear to involve mocking people that are different to you, you're better off without them
Looks like someone has a case of sour grapes.
Social skills involve postively interacting with other people. For some social groups (evidently the only type you've been witness to) this can mean criticizing those outside the group; but not all are like this, and social skills do not only involve large groups.
Just teach the kid how to be polite
Which is a social skill.
We need social skills to go through life. I've dealt with physical, as well as social handicaps, and I can assure you that social handicaps were the hardest to overcome. Ignoring them, or pretending that social skills are not necessary will only ensure that the child is unhappy for the rest of his life.
if they were like everyone else they wouldn't be gifted.
Yes, but just because they're gifted doesn't mean that they have to be social outcasts.
I have been classified as a nerd my entire life (being called Ben Nye the Science Guy should give you some idea). Elementary school was for the most part hell for me, I was far geeker tahn my peers (I was reading at 2.5yrs - most of them were only learning in 1st/2nd grade). Life gets much better in middle school - or it did for me. In elementary school, I simply endeared myself to adults - i found they were much easier to talk to than my seemingly brainless peers. I'm a HS senior now and AP courses are nerds and proto-nerds, so life is good (taking Photo and being the class Mac Geek doesn't hurt either - girls love to get their PSD files fixed by the nerd). 1. Have this student interact with adults - but ones who will not condescend to him, but will treat him as an equal (or at least close to it) 2. Karate sounds good, but avoid team sports at all costs (IMHO) as I found them to be little more than a reason to get teased. 3. Chess... other geeky persuits are good. 4. Get him to socialize with other nerds if at all possible - jump grades, or just find him a fellow NERD!
Telling him to rock on and ignore them, if he is as smart as you say he will always be mocked for it. Alot of us geeks did get bullied in school and now it's them exact people begging for us to fix their PCs when they go wrong. Just tell him to remember that we'll be making thousands while the bullies clean our pools, wash our cars and beg for our money.
--- [Insert intresting Sig here]
When I was a kid I was very interested in math and science from an early age. I wasn't doing very well in school and in grade 5 they decided that something had to be done with me, so they gave me an aptitude test because they wanted to see what level I was at (they seriously thought I had mental problems). They were shocked that I was reading at a university level, and quickly decided that I was "gifted"
I first started programming when I was about 12. I had written my first program and had never been at a computer. I had read a book on BASIC, and had written a program on paper. (it didn't quite work, but I had the jist)
Starting at about grade 8, I was really getting teased a lot at school. No one liked me, I was labeled a geek and was bullied and harrassed constantly. I hated myself. I hated being different. I started becoming one of those other kids. I started smoking. I started drinking. I started taking drugs. At 15 I ran away from home (small town) and moved to a big city. I lived on the street and started using hard drugs, like LSD, MDA, Cocaine, T's & R's, Marijuana, whatever I could get. On day I almost OD'd on IV morphine.
I almost threw my life away. At 25 I started coming around. Now 10 years later, I am married, have a happy life, 3 kids, and work as a TA at a large IT firm. Not a bad living
But it could have been much better
Please don't let this kid 'figure it out for himself'. Put him with him emotional equals and let him thrive. I would bet that in a group of emotional equals he would develop those social skills - he just doesn't care to have relationships with kids that don't have the same interests..
BEER?
Buy the kid his first six pack and lap dance. People will stop making fun of him, post haste.
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
There is only one solution. I suggest some good old-fashionedSeppuku There's nothing like swallowing a buttered-up frizby after getting really super pissed.
A very real fact about humans and most other animals: image matters. All the desire for fairness doesn't matter.
Bad social skills produces cognitive dissonance in regular folks, just like bad facts produces it in geek kind. This is important because geeks need to communicate some important ideas to society at large, but so long as society is concentrating on your too tight raggy T-shirt, or the unkempt hair, they don't hear your message.
It's not just that you aren't like them. No one talking to Richard Feynman would have thought he was "just a regular guy". But he communicated very well, so people listened. And a big part of that communication is presentation.
Elitest talk, snide remarks, ignorance of audience reaction (eyes glazing, nervous glances away, etc.), unkempt appearance, all these things tell the people you are talking to that you dislike them.
They'll dislike you right back, and worse, they won't give you money.
The ubergeek who is designing NOC's and getting multimillion dollar budgets to do it is someone who can talk to the suits, who can even wear one and look comfortable. Someone who can make them smile.
Social skills are the API to humans. Ignore them at your peril.
All the technology in the world won't hide your lack of vision, talent, or understanding.
Wow! I am a geek, yet I do not remember not having social skills. I've always been a life of any party. In high school I used to throw social event any time my parents were out and in college my first year was totally out of control. Weed, alcohol, girls, wild house parties, you name it. And not without computers and good grades where it counted. Just because I started writing programs at the age of thirteen does not mean that I am a social outcast. In fact, I know quite a few geeks who happen to be well-groomed individuals with good tastes in clothings and normal social manners. They go out for "happy hours," dress in matching colors and can talk to women about things other than computers and science. Is that normal? I do not know, maybe it is not and maybe it is.
Also, I know people who can't be discribed as "geeks" and who happen to be poorly dress individuals with zero social skills. If you want to start somewhere, please stop generalizing. Thank you.
P.S.: No, I won't help you to fix that kid. Trust me, he's fine right where he is.
Like any other tool, self-knowledge can be misused. It can become the basis for a lifelong "pity party", or it can instead open the door to discovering one's responsibilities and opportunities for growth. That is, if one can learn to deal with the often-erroneous assumptions and expectations of others... such as the suggestion that those of us with AS are indulging in some kind of fad.
...Really, really good sex. Get him hooked. Get him laid by a few other girls (or guys or goats, whatever hooks him).
Seriously - sexuality is (for the vast majority of the species, including the vast majority of geeks) the strongest human motivational force next to food and pain.
Most people gain interest in ancillary tasks that support reaching their primary goals, and developing social skill is an ancillary task to getting laid.
In most people, the actual sex isn't as strong a motivation as "love", the complex set of emotions surrounding procreation, but good sex is a good way to start up interest in that syndrome, no matter what your parents told you.
You're an idiot. You don't know anything about what you're babbling about. If you looked at the development of Asberger's syndrome, you'd realize that you're misunderstanding is inane.
Of course, being a fencer, I'm highly biased. :)
The advantages are that (1) geeks love swords, (2) there's no temptation to use it in a fistfight, and (3) in my experience, there are always hot chicks in fencing classes. :D x 1 million
#define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
Many of the posters here are suggesting more socialization with like-minded youngsters. Personally, I think it rather unlikely that throwing him in with other math/science nerds with equally poor social skills will do anything for him. Consider instead the artsy crowd--they are creative, more socially developed, willing to accept outsiders, and often largely female :)
Most of my friends in high school were either in marching band or were editors of the newspaper/literary journal, and comparing myself before and after, I think they did a world of good.
If he's so smart, he should be able to realize why people make fun of his uncombed hair. I was the same way when I was a kid. I wore the same 3 pairs of sweat pants for most of my childhood, never once combed my hair, and hardly ever brushed my teeth. Sure some kids made fun of me, but because it never bothered me, I was always nice to them. I made friends with people from all grades. It takes more to win friends over than just appearance, and it takes more to scare them away. I think it has more to do with your characteristics, self-control, and whether or not you even WANT friends.... thats stuff you can't really teach.
You're nothing; like me.
In Rain Man, it is the autistic savantism that is documented, NOT Asperger's. Here are the basic facts, of which you are obviously unaware:
1) Autism is a neurological disorder that is generally present from birth, and includes debilitating symptoms, such as heightened sensory sensitivity (to the point of pain), lack of verbal behavior, and severely retarded IQ.
2) The phenomenon displayed in Rain Man is called autistic savantism, which occurs in approximately 1 in 6 autistic individuals.
3) Savants do not have high intelligence, but rather exceptional specialized skills. This is one of the weaknesses of the film. Almost all autistic savants are still severely retarded, but they have particular skills that are amazing, but not completely out of the bounds of human sensibility. For example, an autistic savants may be able to take one look at a tree, and tell you exactly how many leaves it has on it, instantly. This is because they don't count, like we do, just see, and understand. Something similar, but normal, is the fact that normal people can remember a complex tune after only one listening, and reproduce it. Somehow, our brains are more able to organize auditory phenomena, so that they can be accurately recalled.
Autism is a crippling disease, and is almost certainly not something that this particular child has, or else he would probably find no place in normal schools.
-----[0_o]-----
We are not amused.
My mom did wonders in helping me socially by providing insightful self-esteem building opportuinities at a young age.
Once at the age of 5, I was playing matchbox cars with some of the neighbor kids. Because I was a geeky little kid, something made them start to pick on me. Pretty soon, they had thrown mud all over me and took half of my cars, laughed at me and left. Yeah, I went crying to my mom. But instead of just holding me she took the opportunity to teach me an important social lesson. After wiping my tears, cleaning off the mud and giving me a peanut butter cookie she told me to go right back out there. I was horrified. I wanted to stay in the house by my mom and hide after the humiliation. She made it clear that she would not allow it. Instead, I was to go outside and take two of my cars and pretend to have the time of my life - by myself [early acting incentive?]
Anyway, it worked perfectly. After about 10 minutes of seeing me unaffected by their cruelty, their curiosity drove them to see why I was having so much fun. I let them play with me again, and all of the sudden I was the popular kid.
Later that year, a bully in my preschool class was picking on me and all the other smaller kids. When I told my mom about it, she told me to do the hardest thing once again. Stand up to Goliath. She told me the next time he pushes me to get back up and tell him, "Billy, when you push me down it hurts. Can we be friends instead?" I told my mom I didn't want to be his friend but she wouldn't listen. She showed me some more tough love and made me promise I would do it. Sure enough, the day came and Billy pushed me into one of the girls and I fell down. Choking back tears, I recited the words my mom told me. Billy was shocked. He stammered an apology and we played the rest of the day. He even made me a Christmas ornament later that week.
Those early experiences gave me the confidence to handle similar patterns throughout my geek life. The formula my mom showed me works great, but pattern recognition alone isn't the key - the older people get, the higher base confidence you need to pull these things off.
Just because something is overdiagnosed doesn't mean it's not a real thing.
:)
:p
There is a fairly specific piece of the brain that's associated with empathy and picking up on social cues etc. In someone with Aspergers, that part of the brain is all but inactive. If you have a look at a brain scan, it's lifeless. Someone with Aspergers learns to compensate for this malfunction by 'emulating' that part of the brain with the intellectual parts. It's slower, and doesn't work as well, but it gets you by for the most part. The quicker you figure out that all this isn't just going to come naturally and start compensating for it the better.
Someone with Aspergers has emotions, and lots of them. They are just (typically) very bad at controlling them, and even worse at reading them in other people.
That being said, it's not all black and white, and there may be a feedback loop involved - a child with a genetic/whatever deficiency in that part of the brain may withdraw socially and therefore never 'exercise' that part of the brain. If social interaction was forced/encouraged, maybe the brain would naturally 'catch up' to some extent. I don't think the original poster was saying "give up, you'll never be like other people", more like "you are going to have to work extra hard to survive in social situations as well as other people". The sooner you stop wondering why you don't 'fit in' and waiting for it to come naturally, the sooner you can get some help and start working at it.
Also, (most) nerds get on famously with other nerds. Just 'cos there are more 'normal' people than 'nerds', doesn't make the nerds wrong
As for CFS, get a clue. Some people who are 'under the weather' may say they have CFS, just like some people with a runny nose will say they have 'the flu', but that doesn't make influenza a 'pet disorder'.
This is a very interesting subject. We've been thinking of ways to implement this into a new website my partner and I began a couple months ago. The site is geekofthemonth.com We are looking at the term geek in a positive way.. In fact we have a document that defines "Today's Geek" http://www.geekofthemonth.com/what_is_a_geek.htm
At least, to some degree. I am still something of an introvert, though lately I simply don't have enough money to go out. (I don't really have enough money to put gas in my car this week.) Before you ask, since broadband costs per month about what it would cost to go to dinner someplace decent once, I don't feel like it's an inappropriate use of my money.
I was considered a "gifted child", I went to a private school only for gifted children for a year and a half or so, before I was apparently kicked out for being violent or something. I have no recollection of the event, besides crying on the way home, and that they gave me a coupon for a free ice cream cone. After that day I went to public school, which was bad from start to finish. They had a GATE ("gifted and talented education" program) which was a sad and pathetic joke. For example, because I was one of the younger students, they wouldn't let me participate in their astronomical pursuits. The only thing I really remember from the GATE program was the speed-reading machine, which looked to be of a fairly ancient vintage, and which has pretty much ruined reading for me because I kill off novels in just a few hours. Now that they're $7 for a goddamn paperback, I can't afford to buy new books, except every so often I'll throw down the money for a nice hardcover - the last two non-textbooks I bought were Cryptonomicon and Quicksilver, can you tell I'm a Stephenson fanboy?
Added to all of this was the fact that my parents split up when I was five, and my father (who is an alcoholic, in recovery, and hasn't touched alcohol except to hand it to one of his sons :) in several years) was not around for most of my development - actually, he wasn't really around for most of the time before I was five, either. We have a great relationship now but that definitely altered who I was, and arguably not for the better. Of course, we'll never know, but one thing it certainly must have done was harm my ability to socialize. In addition my mother was somewhat manic depressive and had her own problems forming attachments and my half-brothers were troublemakers (and only lived in the same house as me for about a year and a half, little of which I remember) so the only male role model I ever had was my "Big Brother" as in Big Brothers and Big Sisters. He was a great guy (Hi, Gary!) who worked for Parallel Systems (I think that was the name, they were someplace in or near Santa Cruz which is where I am from, it was definitely Parallel but I don't remember if it was computing, systems, whatever.)
Now the moment you all are waiting for, the moment where computers enter the picture. Actually throughout this time I had a series of computers. The first one I ever owned was a Commodore 16 which my father got me, he got it "cheap" whatever that meant, probably in trade for something. It had no storage, but it did have the box and the manual, and I fiddled around with BASIC. Gary loaned me his Apple ][+ with two floppy drives for a while, and that was much better. Later, I got a shiny new Amiga 500, and a BSR 1200 baud "phone modem", and the rest, they say, is history.
Back then of course internet access was available only from schools or very expensive services, so I BBS'ed, and made friends that way. I really only had a couple friends growing up, and at this point I had made a few more (like five) from summer school, other ingrates like myself who were of course all intelligent and mostly misunderstood. (A couple of 'em really were violent, thieving little bastards, but they were people that I could get along with for the most part.) But the BBSes were a whole new world in which I could represent myself with words until I had the confidence to meet people face to face and employ my drastically underdeveloped people skills, which like most other skills, improve with use.
One of the people I met through the BBSes was another social inept like myself (he, too, improved greatly over time, partly due to social
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yes, I know, they were the only social group that us nerds were able to make fun of without fear of physical retribution.
But damn do those black-clad chain-smokers know how to party...
then find a way to make him join a team.
This is going to be mocked or yelled at, but I couldn't agree more on this one. Once you get into a huge slump, it's very tough getting out. But once you pop, you can't stop :)
Berto
poor family, lazy jobless dead, mom who cares more about religion and won't take notice to her children, age 1-8. Divorce, poverty, chronic migraines ages 9-13. Single mother stripped from friends, new school, do drugs have shitty friends, get locked in isolation at school as their way of "helping" anxiety problem ages 14-17. Drop out of school do your serve depression, do drugs, make ass of self by getting way, way too drunk at party, get rejected by "love of life" get stripped from remaining friends by 100s of miles age 18-19. Current : having self taught myself nearly everything from age 13 and having severe social phobia and anxieties get shrink, have shrink test me for problems, find out my iq is 154, enroll in classes, get bored quickly with classes, waste 1000s of dollars on classes you never really intended on taking seriously, live with parents. being having delusions of grand things to happen without working hard at them, watch anime all day. Wait for a game for 5 years that you won't buy. Future, kill self or take things seriously. Sad fool's rambling incoherent time-line inaccurate do to laziness moral-o'-story? PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR FUCKING KIDS, WORK HARD AND SET GOOD EXAMPLES FOR YOUR KIDS. what you do as a parent now will effect you're childs life forever so you better start really caring now. moral #2, applies to many people here: So you're a smart, "gifted" child, SO WHAT? that doesn't mean anything. get over it and make use of it if you can, IQ, intelligence, it means nothing without the proper education and motivation. if your parents fail you, just remember you're the only person who you can depend on so get your act together before you're too late. There are no excuses. Don't be like this anony bastard and dewl in self-hatred and contempt for the world when you _know_ you're better than what you are.
Instead, have your kid search out a peer who have similar academic goals. This friend should be someone who has a little more of a balance between high intelligence and social skills. Heck, I have a friend I have known since 5th grade (1993) who is much smarter (VERY intellectual) yet has more secure friendships than me.
Also, if your kid is the subject of torment, teach him to not let torment bother him/her. If bullies suddenly find it difficult to get their desired reaction, they will eventually have no reason to continue.
Homework assignment: Have your kid invite a peer who (s)he has been been on positive terms with to some event, say bowling for an hour or two on a Friday night. Unless your kid is a complete jackass to all peers, I am pretty sure there will be someone willing to spend some free time with him/her.
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
After high school, many people find that they no longer associate with the people they went to school with. Why? Because the only thing you really had in common with them was the fact that you went to the same school. You will have people from school that you remain in contact with your entire life, but the majority of that circle of friends dries up and blows away.
I personally find not enough emphasis is placed on emotional growth in society. People are urged to excel in sports, in science, in their field of work and study, but being happy is not a focus.
Here (in australia) we have sick leave, and need to supply a doctors certificate if we use that time. However, I know no-one who would get a certificate for 'mild depression' and would have it approved. Everyone I know has had a sickie, a doona-day, a bludge, but they always convince some doctor they were up with the trots, or have the flu.
Mental health, the sort that is enhanced by true friends and loving, supporting relationships does not get enough play. Find your guy a circle of true friends. Lead him by example, show him how happy you are.
Yay me!
Seriously, discovering the vagina was both a blessing and a curse for me. It literally divided my world in two: computers and women.
Few things are better than the company of a great woman (and her vagina). However, few things are better than a significant tech. accomplishment.
The two are mostly mutually exclusive. However, I've found a girl that knows and loves tech (she's not a coder; but she "gets it"). As such I consider myself very fortunate.
Anyway, hire a hooker to rock him out one night and see if he doesn't start thinking with his penis more (and thus shifting some of his focus into women [pun intended]).
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
The kind of person who stands out and doesn't fit in will not suddenly become a social creature because he is on a team. What, you think teammates don't give each other immense amounts of shit?
But the sport idea is very good. It doesn't have to be team-based in order to be social. The sports where the person is competing against himself (new high score, faster time, farther distance, etc) fit very well with the mentality. It will hold his interest, put him amongst others who are interested in the same sport but not competing against him for position/whatever, and improve his health to boot.
Martial arts is good. The added self-discipline is a big boost. I recommend fencing myself, but TKD or karate would work just as well. Distance hiking, indoor/outdoor rock climbing, etc, are good. You only need to be 14 to get a sailplane pilot's license in many states, and -- trust me -- that's a serious conversational icebreaker. ("It's a two-seater airplane, but longer, and the wings are thinner and longer, and the whole thing's narrower, and very responsive." [Listener's eyes start to glaze over.] "Oh, and also, there's no engine.")
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
give the kid a six-pack and a box of condoms. lock him in a room with women. if he's as smart as you say, he'll figure it out...
such as the suggestion that those of us with AS are indulging in some kind of fad.
... etc. If you're one of these people, then even if AS is a correct diagnosis, it's critically important that you not label yourself as AS, because it'll just become one more label you hang on yourself as a way of giving yourself permission to fail.
When I was evaluated for AS, my psych told me that I had clear enough symptoms that an AS diagnosis was appropriate... but that ultimately it was up to me whether I had AS. If having the knowledge that my brain was wired differently helped me cope with life, helped me accomodate my shortcomings, let me live a happier and better life, then by all means: let's get the AS diagnosis taken care of.
But the flip side is that a lot of people take diagnoses and turn them into excuses why they can't do $foo, why other people need to accomodate them, why they're
AS is often a fad diagnosis. (The worst I ever saw was a father telling me about his four-year-old with AS. Come on.) But the existence of fad diagnoses does not in any way negate the existence of accurate AS diagnoses, nor the help that self-knowledge can bring.
I have AS. I'm a graduate student; I almost got married once, but it didn't take. I've worked in the industry and received my fair share of glowing recommendations and don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-ass goodbyes. I have the respect of my peers and more friends than I deserve.
None of this happened either because or in spite of Asperger's Syndrome. I'm wholly responsible for all of them--the particular way my head is wired has zero responsibility for any of them.
The way my head is wired is just a fact of existence. What I choose to do with my life... that's up to me.
Kids like this are really good at mastering things with known rules (games) but not situations full of unknowns and subtle social cues. I've often thought the best way to help is to not only jot down the rules, but make it a game one can master.
Maybe a board game or a video game, or just a way he can secretly keep points, or maybe with others like him. That could become another source of teasing from future gas pumpers if it got out, though.
As a side note, I see many here are quick to label him with aspergers, and that may or may not be true, but it IS the latest fad. When I grew up it was hypoglycemia, then hyperactivity, then dyslexia, then attention deficit disorder. Dyslexia made for the best made-for-tv-movies, along with bubble boys and pee-pee problems. Then again, it's good to keep your eyes and mind open to such things -- I discovered my neighbor's kid was alergic to orange juice (made him crazy hyper) but not allergic to bees...
Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with your call, on that one, Barbara. Upon cursory glance, this student does sound like a classic case.
ASpies are usually filled with a great passion for certain topics that interest them. One way to get them interested in being social is to introduce them to others who share their passions. Even this can be awkward for some, though.
It is useful, in some cases, to teach them that there are very real, practical reasons for gaining social skills. Rare ASpies have been known to be capable of focusing their amazing learning abilities on attaining social graces, from what I understand. They create sets of rules to operate by. They search for patterns in the behaviors of others, so that they can apply their rules. It sounds horrible -- as though it were some sort of act -- but to some degree, a great deal of social behavior is an act, isn't it? Why else would there be etiquette books and finishing schools?
Perhaps what you wish to teach is not social "skills," but, rather, the ability to find pleasure in being social. Can that be taught?
Well, maybe it's best to start with those aforementioned folks who share your student's passions. Start by making things fun!
If he ever wants to work anywhere he'll need to learn now that appearance and sociability matter almost as much as actual skills. He won't be working alone in his career and will have to get along with others.
Gifted kids aren't easily lied to, so you'll either have to be brutally honest or really sneaky. Tell your student outright and honestly that hes unkempt and a change in appearance and attiude will help the others. Plan B is to wrap it up as a social experiment, 'change your appearance and see how others change'. The other option is a job skills lesson, 'prepare for an interview and subsequent internship'.
I was fortunate enough to particapate in an incredible program in, of all places, Lake Chareles, LA. Check out www.gpgc.com. It is a summer camp for academically and musically gifted children. To sum up its purpose it throws together kids of high potential and deveops the "whole" child. Mornings are strict upper level academics and afternoons are fine arts - chorus, drama, musical, art, etc. It is a full time residential program and the changes I've personally observed are incredible. It was first designed for rural gifted children who could find no external mirror of the thoughts and emotions they were experiencing in their peers. It has since turned into a 5 year evolution of a balanced child. Harry Connick, Jr. and Tony Kushner are among an incredible list of former students. I cannot enough about the value of this program.
They usually turn out to be complete rejects as far as society goes; violent neanderthals, basically I disagree with this. The bullies at my school are, for the most part, stinking rich right now and have the sort of career progression I can only dream about. Because they still are bullies and they know all about putting themselves first and manipulating social situations to make themselves look good. Its easy to equate bullies with the Nelson stereotype, but some of those little shits aren't necessarily all brawn and no brain. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this sort of thing needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.
I was homeschooled most of my life (my choice) Homeschoolers are generally viewed as socially deprived, anti social, etc. I stayed busy with clubs like boy scouts 4-H and my church.
I would highly recommend getting your child involved in 4-H. There are many many trips for your child to go off meet brand new people and basicaly be able to reinvent himself and make friends with kids who have no idea what he used to be like.
There are also many judging events and speaking contests that will give him more confidence. Many states also have tech teams I know Georgia does. No matter what your childs strength is there will be something he is good at.
I think a job during one's teenage years can do a lot for social and real-world skills in general, and just from my experience with other nerds (like the rest of my AD&D group) the parents will often allow the kid to coast by without a driver's license or a job for their entire high school career; "they need time to study!" because they are a smart kid with good grades. They don't want to push their shy, awkward kid into the real world yet.
My mom was more along the lines of "you want something, you get a job and buy it", so I was stuck learning my social skills the hard and painful way. I was in the gifted program when my school still had one, I played AD&D, spent too much time at my Amiga and on Compuserve, and had a crippling shyness. I hated talking to people I didn't know, making small talk, negotiating. Yet, in a real-world job, these are things you just have to force yourself to do.
For a gifted kid, though, I don't think that just any job will necessarily be the best thing. Try to find an environment for him where he can meet nerds in disguise. For example, I first volunteered and then worked at a library, followed by an art store for a few years. Anyone in a library is by default geeky in some capacity, and certainly any teenager that wants to work there is going to be a closet nerd. The art store too harbored big nerds, but they're not tech nerds. They're art nerds, framing nerds, book nerds. When I worked at the public housing authority as a receptionist later in life I met maintenance and housing code nerds.
If you work at K-Mart or a grocery store, you're just going to have painful run-ins with the dregs of society and be working with the kids that pick on you at school. If you want to protect your young friend's eccentric and unique nature, yet still want to help him develop a few of those skills he will certainly need later in life, it would be to his advantage to go somewhere that he won't be completely ridiculed for his nerdiness. He needs peers he can be inspired by - nerds who also know how to work the system, or at least take a shower - and who will encourage him to learn social skills simply by example.
If he is a younger geek, by no means is a job the only way to get this kind of environment. As I said, I did volunteer work at the local library which led me to also get involved in helping to run the library youth group. If he's younger, he could join a youth group. There are myriad volunteer opportunities out there, and if nothing else, the work he finds could give him a sense of fulfillment and will give him exposure to people whose lives and perspectives are different from his own. This is a valuable experience for anyone.
Another option is an extracurricular group or class. I used to take summer classes before I was old enough to have a job; the ones I took were mostly along art lines, but he might be interested in that (a comic art class I took was FULL of geeks...surprise), or music, public speaking/debate, or language classes. These all force you to make mistakes in front of others and offer helpful criticism - this goes a long way in reducing your shyness about looking stupid (because you ALL look stupid) and helps you to feel more confident about speaking your mind to others. You also end up meeting different kinds of people that you're forced to interact with, who you might not end up talking to otherwise.
I see a lot of comments criticizing you for not "letting him be himself" and "what do you know, you're just a biotech undergrad." At the same time, you are another human being who can empathize with your friend's situation and has learned the hard way that you DO need social skills to get by in this world - to make friends, to get a job, to persuade people to do what you want. This is all about daily life, and I think he would benefit from your help in finding a situation where he can learn these things more comfortably than he would otherwise. (it has to beat being made fun of?)
just my 2 cents, but I learned the hard way how to acquire those social skills and cure myself of a large part of my shyness. if being put into these kinds of situations worked for someone as geeky and oblivious as I am, it might be worth a shot for your young friend.
-molly
Amen, man. In my case, it was sweatpants instead of greasy hair, but the point is the same. I must say, for someone who does well in school but sees the world outside of 7th grade math and wants more, elementary and middle school is *killer* boredom.
:)
I would have loved to be doing something meaningful, especially if it was with science or math, even if I was just running errands for somebody doing lab work. We did a thing in 6th grade where we spent several days at a local manufacturing plant with the quality control people, and the first day was fun because they let me read the numbers off the schematics to check against the machined parts, but the rest was just a glorified field trip -- when in fact the whole purpose of the exercise was to have us "working" with people in the community. Especially since, on an intellectual (though not a social) level, I was really ready to be working on that kind of thing.
The other good thing that helped me later on was when in 8th grade they let me and a couple friends take Algebra I instead of 8th grade math (one of the friends is now, as a senior in high school, almost finished with a college math degree). Since the high school and middle school schedules didn't quite match up, we were taken out of our regular classes and became a small class of our own, really. We still took classes with everyone else, but we didn't rotate when they did, so we always had history first and then English and then we went to the high school for math. The other kids would have three weeks of history first, then have English first, and so on. We kind of became a class within a class, becuase we were working together all the time, and once I made friends there I was more confident about working with other people. Then high school was a Godsend because I could take chemistry (Jr./Sr. class) as a sophmore and really go at my own accelerated pace, and I wasn't stuck at the pace of the other students. Yet I've still managed a reasonable set of social skills, and I feel a lot better about the interactions I have.
So, yes, get him working with others on something meaningful and let him connect. He sounds like he could use a challenge.
I do a great deal of men's work (www.MKP.org). In my experince helping men get past some tramatic event, I need to speak in a way they will relate to/understand. Then I can transpose thier reality to a larger reality. So for me the key is to try to reach him by using what he understands. For expample: what I would use is math. I would key in on sets/sub-sets of number theory. But I would not tell him why we are talking about it. I would save that for last. Then I would have prepared a list of ONE thing he should do every day. Example: Brush his hair before he goes out. Once he is doing that, then I would give him one more task...and so on. And when he complains, then I would go back to number theory, and explain that sometimes we need Zeros. By the way, I think any martial arts that excites him is a good thing!
The young, socialy challenged lad seems to think in terms of function, not style (as do most socially challenged nerds). Point out the importance of confidence and social interaction. for instance, social interaction would help him in the following ways:
1. he can create a network of like-minded individuals, some of whome he can learn from (other nerds interested in the same stuff) others he can help out (using his vast knowledge to help the rest of the world).
2. later in life when he goes to get a job he will need those social skills to interact with co-workers, prospective clients, venders, etc.
3. social skills will expand his mind (wich he obviously charrishes alot). it will allow him to see what others think, and eventually give him a leg up on other socially challenged, yet smart individuals. for instance, he's competeing with another person for a freelance job writing code for a new POS system for a business. If he has been social, and can look at things from other people's points of views, he will most likely get the job because he is flexible, and understands the needs of his client, yet has the same technical skills as the other dude competing for the job.
4. socializing is just plain fun some times.
now that he understands why it is a good thing and why he should try to be social, it's time to help him get there. the best way i have found in doing this is to get him to test his own boundaries and do things he feels uncoumfurtable to do. i don't mean force him to curse out his parents, expose himself to a crowd of 100,000 people, but maybe act strange in public. or somehow draw attention to himself. Maybe a few of my owne experiences would help clearify my point.
I started wearing cloths out of charactor for myself. I would wear skirts in public, i have pants that have a bunch of drawings on them that look really cool, brightly colored shirts and I'd go skipping down the street with some friends, and just not care if people liked it or not. that riught there built my confidence alot. It felt wierd rockin' a long flowing skirt in public as a male, but after a while i started to like the attention. I never get mean comments, everyone seems to like it. my pants with the drawings are huge conversation starters. people come up and ask about my pants, we get into a conversation about my art, then about what they like to do, then it rolls from there. these things all prepare you for dealing with unexpected situations that may arise.
Make sure he knows though, that the goal of becoming social shouldn't be about changing yourself to make others like you. it's about improving yourself and gaining confidence. there's nothing better than knowing who you are and being able to share that with the world. not only will you expand your own horizons, but you might even expand someone else's without even trying.
at the very least, encourage him (and everyone youy meet for that matter) to try something new. Who knows, he may like it.
-Adam
It's a well known Wallism (as in Larry Wall) that there's Real Hubris and fake hubris. Even Linus is possessed of the real variety; despite all the humbleness we usually attribute to him, you have to remember that he famously told off a well-respected professor in operating systems design! Whether this counts as frankness or arrogance depends largely on which side of the micro/monolithic kernel debate you fall on, but nonetheless, there's a certain kind of geeky "arrogance" that comes from knowing what the hell you're talking about, and Wall's advice is to use it productively.
:)
By the way, ESR seems to have a rather thriving social life, as he's constantly reminding his readership of how much poon he's getting. So it's not just arrogance.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Often, highly intelligent people mistake their ego for self esteem. There's a saying in NeuroLinguistic Programming (NLP) that "the meaning of your communication is the response you get". It's an empowering belief, because it poses the constant challenge to communicate effectively, focusing on an individual's power in any situation to achieve the result they desire. True self esteem will surely follow. Relevance? To learn social skills, or indeed anything, requires proper motivation. Helping people to understand that they have the power to change social interactions that they don't like must surely be the first step in your process. It's only once someone accepts responsibility for the consequences of their actions that they can start to take charge of the results. In short: Don't allow your students to make the mistake of believing that their peers or associates are simply too stupid to understand them. In reality, the opposite is true so long as they have a desire for positive social experience and are not achieving that goal. "For wayfarers of all times, the right strategy for skillfully spreading the way essentially lies in adapting to communicate. Those who do not know how to adapt stick to the letter and cling to the doctrines, get stuck on forms and mired in sentiments - none of them succeed in strategic adaption." - Zhantang (noted Zen master)
Do great things while they are small. Do small things while they are great. - Lao Tzu
i was a competitive fencer in college. while i enjoyed it, i wouldn't call it the best sport for socialization skills. a lot of geeks fence already.
When i had something like 17 years old, i became more conscient of my own intelligence and tht i was a bit (or whatever how much) more clever then the majority of the population. The fun with sarcasm was beginning. Then it stopped, some months later. When you realize that there is nothing constructive in laughing on others.
But there is stilla something remaning that i understood from this period. i am not able to talk for long time with too normal people that have no passion or something rare to talk about. they are fucking dull to talk with and i cant feed the discution at all! i know they are not bad people and i cant allow me to think i,m superior than them in any ways, because the only thing i could do it with, was given me by luck anyways.
i'm simply not able to find topics or what to say about topics. in these occasions i'm falling too much in absrub humor which entertain myself in these dull conversations but which is also not really understood by people. too much originality or absurdism isnt found funny by some people... it is just, weird. anyways.
This certainly dosent help to maintain any good social life.
anyone experianced the same as me or have any good way to be able to get interested in these kind of discution?
Seriously, being self-deprecating puts people at ease in social settings and lets them know that you don't take yourself too seriously.
A coworker of mine was an introverted ugly duckling until the latter years of high school, and had no choice but to make fun of the earlier version of himself. He fit in quite well afterwards. Now he's big, so people who are on a friendly wavelength will jokingly threaten to kick his arse, indirectly insulting themselves, which is hilarious because he could fend you off with his thumb.
The whole process of figuring out how to make fun of yourself in a way that's more humorous than embarassing not only promotes social interaction, but stimulates creativity.
I completly agree with the parent.
... you probably dont have it. Some of the tips might even give you an insight if you have just some mild traits.
Just because you think that the general description of the Asperger's syndrome somewhat describes you, doesn't mean you have it.
After hearing first about Asperger, I thougth "Hey, that's me." Then I got to the online support groups, read the tips that float there and come to the conclusion "Oh, that's waaaay more serious than my little social problems."
Just because you have some very mild traits of this syndrome doesnt mean that you have it. After all, everyone has some trait of some mental illness, but that doesnt means you are mentally ill.
And dont blindly trust your doctor either, Asperger has become a "trendy" diagnosis (just like hyperactivity) and doctors have become way to eager to diagnose it.
If you suspect Asperger, read the tips on the online support groups and if they look obvious
Asperger's syndrome is a very severe condition that goes way beyond shyness.
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof for my post which this sig is too small to contain.
Funny, but most people who are smart avoid dealing with people because people are fucking ignorant. At least thats how it was for me.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
I know that this has already been mentioned, so I'll probably be modded redundant, but here's my two cents:
I've always been too smart academically and awful socially. Recently I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome (I'm 21 and I was diagnosed 2 years ago.) This essentially means that I struggle to develop an effective theory of mind and lack a certain amount of human empathy. One strategy that has really helped me is to try to understand, to make myself understand, that people are just like me, with thoughts and feelings all the time. I know that this sounds silly and childish, but it works. Actually, the biggest help was "social stories" (and an understanding girlfriend who just happened to write her thesis on Asperger's.) One of the best things that you can do for anyone who is really that socially maladapted is to suggest that he get tested for Asperger's. With the correct diagnosis, assuming that there is a medical reason for his social difficulties, new strategies will open up to him and there will be more resources to seek out.
This sig has been stolen. Return it to its original user for a reward.
you are serial killer material.
Anyone's behaviour can be changed by "behavioral and pharmacological techniques" from anything to anything. Just because I can use drugs to turn you into something else doesn't mean that's a good idea or that you were undesirable to begin with. I'm saying that Asperger's Syndrome does not describe a problem that needs to be fixed.
You need to check out Fast Seduction.
:)
Yeah, it's horrible, flame away, but it works like you wouldn't believe. Good insights into the female mind. I played around with it as an experiment many years ago to help get my people and relationship skills up. It's actually sickening how well it works. 3 second rule is gold in all walks of life. And for gods sakes, get some new clothes and get a haircut and shave. $150 worth of weights and 45 minutes a week will change your appearance forever, and it MATTERS in interviews.
The feynman stuff is as true as EVER. You don't buy a chick anything. You should be trying to get her to buy YOU stuff. Now there's a challenge.
Treating social interaction as a grand experiment is a lot of fun, you might learn something, and maybe get some, too.
Along the same and more depressing lines, check out the Ladder Theory of male/female relationships. It's amusing, but has a ring of truth to it.
Good luck!
..don't panic
If we're going to do this properly, we should really start at the beginning.
Aardvark:
A furry thing that eats insects.
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"I'm currently a Biotech undergrad at the University of Nebraska-Omaha... My student... has very limited social skills, is unable to cooperate with peers, doesn't understand why they make fun of his uncombed hair, etc.
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He is bright huh? Is the Biotech department big enough so that you can deny to the kid that you made him topic on Slashdot? Or is it a very very small department, thus leading to further ostrization?
When I was going to College, the biggest influence in my confidence and people skills was a job in retail. NOT something even remotely connected to technology. I.E. No Future Suck, Elecsucknics Boutique, etc. Selling clothes or glasses are probably the best.
Other benefits:
1. Money. I mean, who couldn't use some more money? You can buy clothes, haircuts, women, toys; hell, he could even buy a gold brick if there's nothing else he wants.
2. Dress sense. Unless you're in a job that supplies a uniform, you're going to have to learn how to put together a good outfit. Some outfits will suck, especially at first, but soon the good outfits will outnumber the bad.
3. Talking to people all the time who don't give a nut how smart you are. As far as they're concerned, you're dumber than they are.
4. You will learn that a company will stab you in the back, then figure out if it's cheaper to pull out the knife and stab you again, or use a new knife. That's a VERY valuable lesson.
If he'd rather not work, then he's probably already too far gone to help, but the College / University that he's going to should have dozens of clubs. That's probably an okay substitute.
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Don't turn him into a drama fag.
An alternative to some kind of martial arts that focuses on both disicpline, physical fitness, and education is the Civil Air Patrol, if you're interested in the military. It's for ages 12-21 for the normal cadet program, and if you're any older there's a senior program.
The higher rank kids, regardless of age help the lower rank kids, and it's a good way to earn scholarships if you're home schooled or can't currently earn one in your sittuation.
You do all sorts of neat stuff, important emergency response missions, and recreational things.
Come this April, I'm gonna get to fly in a Jet Re-fueler and watch them re-fuel planes in mid-air. If I remember right, it's a KC-135.
Are you sure the kid doesn't understand why others tease him because of his uncombed hair? He may be consciously refusing to give in to herd mentality and behaviour.
I had a similar experience when I was a kid. I believed that there are more important things that appearance and that people with higher ideals can looks past appearance.
So I certainly understood why people would tease you for your appearance, I undertsood them better than did themselves, I undertsood the motivation behind their own behaviour. But I rallied against this petty form of behaviour and decided not to waste my time on combing hair, buying brand name clothes etc. This was a conscious decision to rise above the lower natures of many that surrounded me.
Sure it can make you life harder, but in exchange you don't lose your integrity and ideals.
RELAX!
As a coder and socialite, I can fill you guys in on the secret.
Coding is a VERY PRECISE SCIENCE.
Talking to people is a VERY RELAXED ART.
On nights that I'm in "code mode" I don't go out and socialize, or party, etc. I write code. The problem with geeks is that we don't spend enough time in social situations. Just like everything else in life, you have to put time into things that are worth doing. In the same way that you can soak up some code by spending time with it, you can soak up social graces by being around people (that aren't close friends).
PEOPLE ARE NOT COMPUTERS. If you don't put a comma in the right place, or you don't puncuate your sentences properly, your conversation will still compile. The only way to mess up a conversation is to OVERTHINK or OVERANALYZE it. The best thing to do is just talk to everyone as if they were a close family member or friend. Ask them about their day... Ask the cashier at Publix or Kroger if she/he's been busy today. They'll chat with you.
Also, don't chat with people just for a predefined GOAL. People can see right through that (especially girls). Share a few sentences with the grocery bagger EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM HIM. It will do 2 things - it will relax you when talking to a stranger, and it will help you build your basic conversational topics.
Hell, start small. When you call 411 and ask for a number, and the chick is looking it up, ask her if she's been busy. Ask her if shes based out of your town. If it's a dude, do the same thing. Learn to just talk to people and act like you care what they are telling you. But DON'T BE CREEPY. Listen to what they say and follow up on it briefly, but don't linger on things. When your bags are done being placed in your shopping cart, tell the person, "good luck."; or "have a good day". or whatever. Being social is not nearly as complex as learning a programming language; so stop looking at people like every period, semicolon, comma matters.
People are very basic.
The end result is that you'll be more relaxed in general when talking with people. You won't have a "goal" when talking to someone, and people won't think that you do and they'll just talk about whatever with you.
Alcohol helps, but it's not a solution.
Once you find the "keyword" that you and the little slut have in common, you can milk it and show your intelligence on the subject and then bed her.
Stay tuned for Chapter 2: Intermediate conversation - In this chapter we'll discuss how to tell her things like, "Don't wake me up when you leave tomorrow..." and "I really appreciate the head, but I'd be really impressed if you made me a sandwich..."
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
So combing hair == social skill?? Do you REALLY want your talent to blend in with the anonymous masses? Maybe THEY are having a problem, not him...
DON'T LET THE KIDS NEAR TELEVISION EVER!
They'll pick up social skills if they don't have a glowing light to bathe in for hours a day.
Collection otherPersonsInterests = new ArrayList();
while(true){
while(otherPersonTalking){
boolean noddingAndSmile = true;
listenIntently(noddingAndSmiling);
if(mentionsInterests){
otherPersonsInterests.add(conversationStream.read
}
}
Thread.sleep(10000L);
if(otherPersonHasREALLYstopped){
conversationStream.write(constructQuestionsAboutI
}
paySincereComplement();
}
I didn't see the option I chose as a young kid. Often your classmates will see you as smart and the reason to be hated is because you are doing well and the average joe is doing just that: average. So help out the class and make the teacher look good by helping everyone. Approach some people who are struggling and are quiet and once you get the ball rolling, people will approach you. People who feel indebted to you for helping them out in something that you consider extremely simple will reciprocate and help you without you knowing. If you have the "cool kids" saying hi to you in the hallways or sticking up for you, there's a less chance that others will put you down. Kindness begats kindness. Sorta like that movie "Pay It Forward".
---- The geek shall inherit the Earth.
Take him to Cohoy's gymnastics school in Ralston (west side of Omaha) Gymnasts are typically short so they have to develop and sell their comedic/intellectual assets more than most. Might be a good way for your friend to develop his own unique way to score chicks.
I've shared this problem too, in my youth. If your youngster is really smart and rational, they're probably having trouble dealing with all the irrational and ugly behavior that kids can inflict on each other. If your child is stuck in rational mode, they will seem geeky and uptight to the other kids, and become a natural target for bullying etc.
There are a couple things I'd suggest...
- There's a principle that says in an interaction between two people, the one with the most flexibility in their responses has control. Teach your child to learn different behavior options as a tool in their 'interfacing' with human 'systems' - talking loud, talking soft, being polite, being rude, cutting jokes, being serious, being gentle, being tough... You can role-play this and make it a game of 'match me'.
- There's a book on rapport (the magic of rapport) that goes into the key concept of rapport... if your kid sticks out from the rest of the group like a sore thumb, encourage him/her to read this one.
- I _wouldn't_ recommend most martial arts... karate/tae-kwon-do make you more inner-focused and serious... not what your kid needs. Also, the kicks/chops used in tae-kwon-do are not something you're going to pull out on the school-yard, so the techniques can leave you stuck having to _not_ defend yourself. I _would_ recommend grappling arts like wrestling or gracie jiu-jitsu. These teach techniques you can actually use in a real schoolyard tustle, and IMO build much better confidence than flashy but useless kata. Boxing, also, worked wonders for one shy, asthmatic, be-spectacled weakling - Teddy Roosevelt.
I'd encourage you to talk with your child a lot about this stuff... It can be very frustrating for a child who's really smart but finds themselves failing in the things that matter most to a kid.
Good luck to you and your child.
How did this get modded insightful?
Because it seems insightful. I'd only really add two points - Learn a martial art (as one of the first decent posts pointed out), and get a buzz cut (obviating hair care).
Isolating children from peers and reality is not a good way to impart social skills.
You can learn to fake social skills later in life. You can't learn 26 languages, total mastery of mathematics, and how to most rapidly level your half-erdu mage/thief, later in life.
Social skills are built through experience, now from memorizing a set of strategies for coping with the stupidity of other people.
Wrong. Social skills come from a fairly simple stimuli/response mechanism. Geeks tend to not learn that early in life due to seeing them as pointless, but six months of study (usually, the same six months when they become more interested in girls than in fungi, relating back to the GP's assertion "get them laid early in life") will suffice. No, geeks will never become gods of socialization, but I fully believe that results from them not wanting to (ie, have better ways to waste their time than on nonstop typical primate behaviors such as grooming and flattery).
sort of an "I'm better than everyone and that's why they hate me"
I hate to break this to you but... Well... Yes, you've hit the proverbial nail on the head, except <gasp> they have the right idea, and you will end up stuck in mediocrity (or in management, the one discipline that somehow trumps geekdom with ass-kissing prowess) for the rest of your life.
And I know of whence I speak
Funny, I have a clue about the topic as well, having breezed through a degree in psych in my spare credit-hours while earning an engineering degree. We all have our points of reference. You have your anecdotal ones, I have my statistically significant ones. And we both manage to survive in the same world... Curious, that.
You have the bought into the societal delusion that "equal" under the law really does mean that we all have the exact same level of ability. Wrong. Some people perform so far above you (and me, I don't mean this egotistically) that we can't even comprehend what they think about while taking a dump, much less have any right to scold them for their choice of mental specialization.
Those people will produce the next gen of CPUs... No, scratch that, of some product we all can't live without yet have never even heard of. If it makes you feel better to belittle them, go ahead. They honestly don't give a damn what you think - They'll come up with the next "killer app" without so much as a single thought about your opinion.
Of course, some comparable social-skill-genius will manage to rob them of the profits from said creation, but they'll create, none-the-less, and we'll all benefit from their "aloofness".
The kids at school I couldn't make friends with were exactly the sort of people that I wouldn't want any child of mine socialising with anyway. I submit that your definition of functioning socially is too narrow. When I was a kid I started a environmental conservation club for kids. I consider that to be socially responsible. I don't recall seeing any of the "normal" kids with their social skills doing anything like this. I have a strong social concience. I have weak social skills. I might be arrogant, but I'm generous. The end result is that I think I am a nicer person than the average idiot, bless 'em ;)
When I was 16 I decided that I would be happier if I normalized myself. Based on studies on soviet alcholics I concluded that if I did enough brain damage I'd be close to normal
Well it didn't normalize me but the thing I discovered was that when drinking heavily I was charismatic and appraochable. I had spent 2 years in the gym but had no luck with women. *bang* as soon as I have as much booze in me as a squad of navy pilots on leave I was irrisistable. by the time I was 18 there was a list of girls who would go to parties only if I was going to be there.
I also figured out that all I had to do was act like I did when drunk and I was much better with people (the eye contact, energetic voice, the warm smile, being happy to see people, etc). You do not have to ever have the "social skills" all you really have to have is the ability to emulate the social skills. this is basic acting people. It doesn't have to come naturally but you do have to be able to study what charismatic people do and be able to parrot it.
Body building also doesn't hurt. Women as well as men judge you initially based on the only thing they have and that is appearance. Besides it is just like any other RPG, it is all about leveling.
Martial arts? been there done that. If you live in fear this might seem like the answer. Unfortunatly your charismatic martial artist is about as common as your charismatic astro physisist (maybe less, I understand that Hawking used to be great fun at parties). This is only a good idea if he is getting beat up and then, only if he feel the opposition is not going to feel his new found skills entitle them to equalize the situation whether it be through numbers or weapons.
If he is as sharp as you say; above and beyond all else remember he doesn't have to socialize with people his own age. Grab him a few PHDs and post grads from fields that interest him and let them play together. Or see if he can just start college early (some places will pay for it if he his still a minor) The people who are mean to him now, will dead end shortly after high school and that they will never matter like they seem to right now. It is a couple rough years but after that everything gets better.
This one should go AC as some of it sounds like bragging and the rest might sound sociopathic to some.
Isolating children from peers and reality is not a good way to impart social skills.
Why should I be forced to be peer to everyone who just happens to be around? Nothing against social skills, but maybe sometimes people are simply not in the right environment - better to move on than to try too hard.
It's forcing kids into an environment where they don't belong that makes for a traumatzied youth. You sure as hell don't build social skills from being bullied and laughed about.
I guess you are priding yourself for having stood against all the ass kicking that was dealt to you, and now you think everybody should have to endure the same things. But imho, running away sometimes is the smart thing. Why waste your time with dumb people?
Deprive him of computers. He'll have to work-up the social skills to beg to borrow computer time. Worked fine for me 25-30 years ago...
Your hyperbole is unconvincing, and you are wrong. There most certainly are not effective techniques for transforming behavior. Talk to a few people who have taken medicine for mental illness. The drugs help. They are not cures or transformers of person by any stretch.
Asperger's does describe a problem. Many people suffer from the problem. It is awful for you to dismiss their condition so readily. You ought to meet some Asperger's children and their parents. The children can be wonderful, but it does not make their troubles any less real.
Nobody is arguing that the availability of pharmacotheraphy is justification for its use. You should not set up such a weak strawman. To deny people help for problems, as judged by them and the people around them, would be cruel and ignorant.
It is the adult's responsibility to create the social rules in a situation. Whatever you deem to be OK, and do so with conviction, the kids will accept.
You want to get this kid out of his shell? Try accepting him for who he is. He is in his shell because he is scared, and not even the grownup (you) in the situation accepts him.
You have even gone on slashdot to ask us geeks how to make a person change. What if this kid finds out you have done this? I would dare say that of all of the people in this situation that are not accepting this kid for who he is, you are on the top of the list.
I think you should instead work on learning how to accept this person, and give him the space to grow up at his own pace. He will naturally find a sport/activity he likes sooner or later.
The best favor you can do this kid is to try to remember your own childhood. Did you get teased for not combing your hair? Do you have unresolved pain from a painful "not fitting in" situation way back when?
If you don't do this, then these situations will keep popping up. This is because something deep inside you will cause them to repeat themselves in the people around you. This will continue until you no longer need them for your personal development.
Once again, you are responsible for the social environment. If YOU cast this kid in a negative light in your own mind, then the other kids are going to do the actual dirty work of letting this kid know that he isn't accepted by you.
If you got a $100 bill, put your hands up...
put him in an element where he needs to develop social skills to succeed. if he can't, he's obviously not that bright. all of us geeks know that getting through society is simply the technology of applying cause and effect to relationships with those around you...
I don't know if this would work for the kid specifically, but I found that taking dance classes and being on the dancesport team at my college has really helped my social skills.
I mean, first of all, dancing is a coed contact sport... who else can claim that? Secondly, especially in highschool and college, the girl:guy ratio is at least 2:1, which is very good odds. Third, dance people tend to be very close and very social, so you're learning from the best. Finally, being a dancer skyrockets your attractiveness to whole new levels. When girls see a guy dance, they just fall over themselves. Not to mention it gives incentive to look good and dress nicely.
Dancing is also very fun and will keep you in shape. It's a nice break from the rigors of normal life and learning, but it also keeps your brain active, since you have to be constantly thinking about technique and staying 5 steps ahead of the game.
There are many forms of dancing. Personally, I do ballroom dancing. Now, when you hear that, I know the first thing that comes to mind is your grandparents dancing to old music, but there are a lot of fun social dances that are done in clubs as well as competition dances, which take a lot of training, but are also very fun to perform. Popular club dances are Salsa, Hustle (not the 70s dance, it's a modern dance based on it and danced to techno!), West-Coast Swing, East-Coast Swing, and other variations of Swing. In my area, Salsa is extremely popular, and there are at least 3 clubs that have salsa nights a couple times a week. There are a ton of competition dances, but I won't list them here, you can easily google it.
Anyway, back on topic - dance for a few months and hang out with the dancers outside of pratice... it will improve your social skills extremely quickly and give you much more confidence in social situations.
"Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose." --Douglas Adams
Your ideas are ignorant and dangerous. Instead of information, you ought to learn more about the people who suffer from it. They are real people in the real world with real problems related to this condition, and they suffer for it. Autism spectrum disorders are very real and very difficult, particularly to people who have experienced it rather than just read some information and drawn flawed conclusions.
Give him a Playboy. If he's as smart as you say, he will figure out the various optimizations and behavioural changes necessary to get laid. Otherwise he is just a savant. There is more than one dimension of intelligence and this guy sure sounds like he's lacking in one of 'em. :)
From my personal experience, parents have the biggest job in this kind of situation. When I was younger, I was very extroverted, and I still am. Sure, I'm a big geek, but I also have good social skills. When I was really young my parents would socialize me a lot, especially with adults and other friends of theirs. As I got older, my dad would bring me to meet business associates and friends, and I think this has helped me be very extroverted. Has anybody else experienced this?
Free Flat Screen
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
"Why Nerds are Unpopular", it's really insightful and will at least give him some perspective about his suffering.
Here is what ive learned.. yes your smarter than everyone else.. but keep it to yourself.
slack of and look at school as just play time, relax. when your at home in private develope the gray matter.
because your intelligent and articulate and know the answer when people are talking about things, just sit there, nod smile, DONT comment on it. your comment may be right, and may raise a good point, but ppl will notice if you do it to often.
Silence is Golden
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
last I heard, he was doing quite well for himself, doing what he loved. He isn't a rich ceo, but I gathered he didn't want to be.
First thing that needs to be done is have him checked out by a psychologist. Likely he has some mental issues like NLD/Asburgers, mild autism, etc.. He should be getting treatment for these. What you described clearly is beyond just normal geekness.
You're taking the wrong approach.
1) Getting anyone to be able to be social with a group of their peers in high school is damned near impossible, particularly when the peers are unintelligent goons.
2) If he does indeed find he fits in at some point, he'll feel regretful for fitting in, because of the comprimises he'll have to make to do so: ie, not being himself.
You'd be better off helping him realize that it doesn't matter and helping him become self-actualized. Simply be a role-model for him, instruct him, and provide him with moral and ethical support when he needs it. Never let him compromise. You'd only reduce who he is to something more like them.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I'm a geek/nerd and therefor lack those skills as well, but that's ok. You see, I can *pretend* that I have them if I have to... but then after that, I need to be by myself to wash off all traces of social interaction. Begone; can't you see I'm reading/coding/webdesigning/formulating a new philosophical worldview?
Developing social skills in an on going thing. There are people in their 50's who still don't have it right. You can't read about it or learn it in a week.
The best way to help this kid is to expose him to as many social situations as possible. The more he interacts, observes, learns the better he will be at it.
Perhaps assign the same study partner for all tasks so the two can develop a friendship. Introduce him to more and more social situations and events.
Best of luck!
Dale Carnegie's book "How To Win Friends And Influence People" is the best book on the subject.
Depression sux
Not one single archtype. There are degrees of aspergers severe enough to be qualified as officially aspergers, and degrees that get labels like Not otherwise Specified (NOS).
... and a long tongue ... and an older brother who can buy beer ... and a cute MILF who puts out
ya
I had the unfortunate experience of being in gifted classes from elementary school through half of high school. It's probably the biggest mistake my parents ever made -- having me continue gifted education through middle and high school.
It's 100 percent true that gifted kids are socially immature. Part of that is due to the fact they're singled out and isolated from their peers. And, because gifted kids are quick to notice their "special treatment" (i.e. different curriculum, classes), they begin to adopt an elitist attitude. Ironically, it's this same elitist attitude that assists in spurring isolation from their peers.
But what many on the outside fail to recognize is the social hierarchy that develops among gifted students who are lumped together for an extended period of time. So, not only do you have this entire group of kids picked on from the outside, but there are some kids on the inside that get picked on by their intellectually similar peers. (I noticed boys among this group were those who dished out most taunts.)
If I learned any lessons from my experience they were:
1. Gifted education has a positive impact on students at an elementary school level and a severely negative impact (both socially and educationally) beyond that level. By the time I reached high school, I found that many of my peers, while brilliant in many regards, had developed a sense of complacency. There were few students who raised the bar to the level of many honors students.
2. If it is necessary to keep gifted kids in gifted classes, provide them with extracurricular activities that remove them from that environment. Team sports are especially great -- they offer kids an escape from academics, are healthy and help develop a sense of teamwork.
I think you have no clue what this is. Chronic fatigue is not just feeling sleepy frequently, or some weakness like that, but a truly crippling disease. Laura Hillenbrand, Kenyon College graduate and author of "Seabiscuit: An American Legend," which later became the movie after being a best-seller, has been plagued by this disease for years, and has written a truly insightful and moving article about it, which was published in the New Yorker. Here is a link:
http://www.cfids-cab.org/MESA/Hillenbrand.html
-----[0_o]-----
We are not amused.
Could it be he is just not socalising with his class mates?
I've had classes filled with dickheads. I try to be friendly but there are just some people.
Dose he socalise outside of class? Maybe his dedication to the subject matter precludes socalising DURING class.
Maybe he has nothing in commen with his class mates. It happends.
Maybe he's just had some major emotional thing happen.
Just before entering HS I was dumpped by my girl friend. I didn't let that effect my friendships but I spooked off anyone who showed any romantic intrest.
Talk with him find out why he hasn't any friends.
He may be a deeply trubbled psycopath or a kid who thinks his fellow students are morons.
I don't actually exist.
It would seem that in many cases gifted children have many traits in common with Autistic children.
The reality of the situation is that some children are bright and some children have social problems.
If there is a combination of these traits social problems are generally not addressed until far later in life, often with catatrophic consequences as the adult pyche is not as tough or maleable as that of the child.
That being said the isolation of these children often enhances their ability in scholastic benchmarks.
Take them to Burning Man!!!
I guarantee you - if you have never been, you and your outlook on life will be different.
If you want the least frustrating experience - find some friends to go with, or ones who have gone. Or, find out if you have a regional burn group - and go to the regional burn, or any one of the other events that the group may sponsor or host. Get involved with the art, with the sound, with the sights - get involved with the people!
Believe me, you won't feel too weird anymore afterward - Burning Man introduces whole new levels of strangeness into your life.
My first Burn was last year. My only regret is not going sooner. The people I met, the friends I made, the art I experienced - I was made anew.
As part of this re-making, I learned something that should be common sense, especially for someone my age - but it wasn't. It is something fundamentally important, that I missed all of these years - and learning it led to my final decision to go to Burning Man. If it hadn't been for the wonderful friends I have, I might have missed this simple truth:
A stranger can only become a friend through getting to know them. If they act like they don't like you, or don't want to talk to you, it most likely isn't you. It's them. In other words, if you are being polite and doing everything to be friendly with someone you don't know, and they still shun you - move on. It is they who have the problem, not you.
Teach them that, let them learn it - then take them to Burning Man.
Both of your lives will never be the same again.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
The other disciplines which have been helping us too-smart-for-our-own-good people get in touch with their bodies are the studies of music and dance. For the clueless, I particularly recommend study in strict formal traditions where they tell you things like "This is right/this is wrong" rather than "Just express yourself." In addition to making practitioners more in touch with their bodies, both disciplines have interesting social effects. They can provide a modality of interaction particularly suited to shy people, one which doesn't involve small talk; they can provide both cooperative and competitive interactions.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
Well, i'll say that the guys discussing dancing are on target. The learning part takes guts and its great for confidence... but its more important to realize that an awful lot of college-aged kids (and more importantly, women) go out to clubs to have fun and dance. And from my experience, the vast majority has no real dancing talent -- but its tons of fun anyway. Thus, one great way to meet people and to get to know the people you see at school is to GO OUT! Its kind of a leap from doing nothing on weekends to going out once or twice, but by at least putting yourself in a social situation like that, its easy to pick up on social skills. and the way i see it, everyone at least knows one person who knows a girl or has a girlfriend.... make them go out with you, 'cause by far the easiest way to meet people is to know a girl.
Example time; You grow up in a society where bribery is the norm. You have ethical problems giving or receiving bribes. This makes your life hard. Should you change? Same question, replace bribery with slavery.
I'm really not sure what the problem is. Certain attributes are common to many people, and I don't see anything wrong with giving these attributes names.
IF the mailing lists are still active( I haven't participated in a number of years) they allow you to
talk to other people trying to solve the same porblems.
No point in repeating all the mistakes.
It was a moderated forum, quite civil and positive.
Look up the literature of Linda Silverman.
Also realize that sometimes there is nothing you can do.
You begin to know why some consider high IQ a curse.
Association with peers is about the only thing that realy does any good. If they can't find them they are in trouble.
The Univ of Oregon runs a summer camp just for this problem. However: he may be to old, mid teens.
And let the morons sit out in the pasture chewing their cud waiting for them to have their lives made better by those they ridicule.
Socializing can happen amoungst the gifted, not just the braindead herds.
get the kid a job so he can buy a car.
i was an unhappy geek in high school
then i bought an 89 coupe deville and was magically transformed into a well rounded, happy individual.
I was also the only person in my high school to ever be chased by a police chopper cause i was going too fast for the squad cars to catch up
then i come to school the next day and like 50 people drove by me pulled over with 5 squad cars behind me, and were like, duuuuude whatd you get pulled over for?! did they catch you with shit in yer car?! and i was just like, nah, they couldnt clock me so they just gave me a ticket for 100 in a 55.
that was a jolly good time
Self esteem aside, you might also try build skills with: "The Art of Helping" or other books by Carkhuff.
. ht ml
http://www.carkhuff.com/ArtOfHelping21stCentury
This doesn't seem limiting. That was my approach while growing up but I get along quite normally now as I've gotten older.
Slashdotters in general form a type of social group. Just because the "other" groups don't include us doesn't mean we can't fit in somewhere.
Seriously, the chess club or the PC-gaming club is no less a form of social interaction than pounding each others heads in another group. The other groups just tend to get laid more often...
Take him to some sort of confrence that the enjoys. I got out of my "shell" by going to several conventions/confrences. After talking to people who are smart and I can talk to I get much better at talking to the other 90% of humanty. Take him to a con get drunk/stoned/over-caffinated, let him make an ass of him self and have a good time.
I was a very introverted / dorky type when I was young. Then I began teaching the subjects I knew well. So now I'm just dorky =)
But seriously, teaching had a gradual but permanent influence on the way I communicated. Learing how to teach others helps you more fully communicate your thoughts, and also helps you understand how others think.
Plus, you get to talk for hours about stuff that you find interesting -- things that you want to excite others about. It's rewarding on a personal level, and constructive at a social level.
- rabs
It is not the fault of the student if the other children make fun of him. Teachers often encourage the behavior of bullies by ignoring it or subtly praising it.
On the other hand if the child is not getting any exercise, steering the child toward a non-competitive Martial Art like Aikido will enocurage confidence, build strength, flexibility, and coordination. Along with that, Aikido's philosophy is one of non-violence.
Put gifted kids together.
Yep, that is the best way (from my personal experience).
It not only helps them to gain some social skill from the interaction with similar kids, the moral support I got from these groups was very healthy too. You are surrounded by a bunch of kids who all have the same problems, and that helps you to deal with the bullies. I developped a "I am more intelligent than this jerk, so I dont care what he says"-attitude that helped me survive school.
Granted this is arrogant and needs to be overcome when you reach adulthood, but IMO it's still better than what other people I know have experienced. Not knowing that they were more intelligent, they felt as "cheaters" because they performed well on tests without learning, something that was preached by their teachers to be "impossible". Thereof their whole succes in life seamed a lie to them and they lived in fear that this lie will be discovered one day. Also they felt isolated because nobody understood them.
And they were the lucky ones that did well in school instead of malperforming because they got bored.
The day they first joined a group of very intelligent people generally comes to them as a relieve and sometimes even as an "enlightenment". I literally saw a woman in her fifties burst in tears on her first Mensa meeting. Having contact to other kids that understand and respect him will not only teach him social skills but also show him that he's not alone in the world, but that there are others just like him.
So dont wait for him to make this discovery later in life, but get him in touch with similiar children now. Contact the gifted children program of Mensa or a specialized organisation like the American Association for Gifted Children to see if they have a local group of gifted children.
BTW, from my experience gifted children are far more likely to accept someone much younger or older in their groups than "normal" children. I guess they are happy to find someone that understands them at all, so age doesnt matter that much. (I still wouldnt advice to put a 5-year-old in a group of 16-year-olds ;)
I also was a member of a chessclub which is important as it gets you in touch with "normal" people. Not hyperintelligent, but not the typical school bullies either. But it didnt gave me the same emotional satisfaction as the gifted children group.
Finally, dont expect wonders. I still wasnt "Mr. Popular" in school, but I always had some few, but good friends, even some (even fewer) girlfriends and was happy. But even then, and despite the fact that I got to a highschool for "better" students, it was sometimes pretty rough at school. But when I got to (I guess the US equivalent is college), I fund it very funny that the same people that bullied me before became very nice to me. Suddenly they were concerned about their marks and guess who they did turn to with their problems in Math ;-p ;-p
I didnt abuse my new power and didnt let them abuse me with this new promise of "popularity" either, but kept friendly and acquired a nice middle position in the hierarchy. I suddenly got invited to parties and became a somewhat more normal, but rather shy student.
Now, at university, I'm almost on the top of the food chain
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof for my post which this sig is too small to contain.
... indicates that I'm somehow "gifted". While like your gifted student I also claimed I was "interested in math, science, and computers" while growing up, often my interest was a crutch that let me hobble when I should have been learning to walk, and a shelter from the beautiful weather that is social chaos. I remember taking a math book to the one high school football game I went to. I insisted most school social activities were beneath my interest, while what I truly wanted to do was dance with Cristina Barbosa.
I still had some intellectual creativity when I got to undergrad, but I accomplished nothing through a long grad-school stay with an NSF fellowship. I wasted your taxpayer dollars (thanks!) finally learning how to speak in complete sentences in social situations and learning how to take my own mistakes and social disappointments gracefully. I ditched it all for the professional world and have done OK there. I finally have lots of friends, though I'm not married in my late thirties (something I could not have imagined in my teens). There are some other complicating factors, like growing up in multiple cultures, growing up in a strict missionary family in the land of carnaval (believe me, neither the legalistic fundigelical nor the carnaval lifestyle works well).
I think most bright kids are aware of their deficiencies and have no idea how to overcome them. I wish you best of luck, and your student will appreciate you taking a real interest, I commend you.
Joining a fraternity can bring th emost socialness out of a person. Yeah, fraternities are stereotypically considered as the partiers, but what better way then to interact with the 100+ members in that fraternity, and all the social functions that you may have with girls. If this kid can't get along with actual every day people he will go no where in life, even if he is gifted, he will end up working some lab job, and the kid that was social, but may not have been as smart is going to be managing him. I see it every day going to a Top 5 Engineering University, being in the programs 90% of the kids will end up working factory jobs calculating shit all day long. And you notice the kids in fraternities are the most social of any class, along with the added social benefits a fraternity will bring contacts in the real world. As everyone knows, it's not what you know, it who you know...
Hi, I'm the last to blame disease for everything but I found the discription at www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger to be really interesting. My personal advice, though, is to let the kid out of school. He'll get more of an education in front of the PC or soldering bench or whatever floats his boat, and if you can provide him with peers, you might stave off the contempt for humanity that so many geeks develop through years of suffering mind-numbing stupidity.
-scott
scott@slowass.net (that's right, I don't read the forums here, email me if you want me)
"Emotional Intelligence" is a book. Read it. It talks about various caricula related to precicely this sort of training.
His lack of social skills have a lot to do with development of his amygdala, and his prefrontal lobes as well. The neural pathways can be developed and strengthened through directed exercizes.
I'm a nerd (I'm here aren't I), but I grew out of it. What's the use of knowing the right answer if you can't convince others you know the right answer? Fortunately there's a high school class that teaches kids just that skill, it's called Speech and Debate.
My 15 year old son is in it and it's great. I was pleasantly surprised how much he likes it, way more than I thought. I asked him, and his answer was that it's competitive too (Debate that is, speech isn't). Seems my son likes to win way more than I thought and there's a winner in Debate... it keeps him going.
So you say the right stuff, but you're wearing white socks, sporting unkempt hair, have an untucked shirt, and broken glasses. You won't convince the judges you're right. In the real world, looks matter, presentation matters, self confidence matters. It may not be pretty, it may offend your sense of justice and mathematical fair play, but it's the way the world is. If you need to live in that world, stay behind the computer and type all your messages. But if you want to live away from the computer, learn that lesson while you're in high school and have your life ahead of you so you can take advantage of it!
I have Asperger Syndrome. I don't think I have a disorder. I have problems, but everybody does. I can barely handle 30 minutes of social interaction in a day. It doesn't help that I was drained by the public school system that just passed me off as smart but lazy until I dropped out. I have problems, I am different, but I am not broken. I am happy to be who I am, as long as people are letting me be me.
Yeah youre all that. Haha, i feel ashamed of being a slashdot reader.
........ remember me? look at my face, close. Thats the bastard that broke ya nose in school
When I was young, I read books and such, and I wuld beat the sh*t out of whoever found it funny.
Same with tendency to like to fiddle with computers.
Later, i started smokin pot, sellin it, droppin out of school... I wonder how it would have been, studyin an shit, getting a good job... but apparently that means lifetime social paranoia and virginity...
LOOSERS
It can be risky, since it can also be a path to the "Dark Side", however...
;) Unless, he's already on the dark side, in which case, you'll be creating a monster.
Learning the basics of social engineering can change your attitudes completely.
Explain how by changing his appearance he can use the ignorance of others againt them.... Even if he places no particular value on combing his hair, by "appearing" to conform to social standards, he can use this as a basis to influence those around him to achieve his goals...
Over time, the skills you learn rub off, and you find that you do them without trying...
After all, most accomplished techs, especially those who manage others, are also experienced social engineers...
Just explain that like most advanced skills, he should use it wisely. (And not turn to the dark side....
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
Social skills were a subject in school at one time, but with names like "Manners" or "Etiquette". With behavior exhibited in some schools it may be better to teach this like other subjects. It would seem current thinking often favors the "trial by fire" method by spending time with a large group of other kids. This seems to work for some,but more often the gifted kid fails to thrive when put in a group. The gifted kid slips down to the bottom of the pecking order and gets stuck. It is better to teach him the basics, before putting him in the ring. For example the ideals of good manners and how people should treat each other, with respect and courtesy. It is best if the kid has someone he respects model this so he can learn by example. This should be followed with an understanding of the reasons why some people choose lower forms of behavior, fighting to establish a pecking order, and trying to better themselves at the expense of others. Empowering him with the confidence that comes from knowing what is right and wrong, the respect that comes from standing up for what is right and protecting other weaker members of the group, how sometimes a kind word can be disarming, and how he can win by not stooping to the lower behavior. I would agree that self defence training can also help with the confidence to stand up to a bully, but that is only one part of the picture. You may find that a kid that likes math and does not like social activities would rather someone hand him the answers to this puzzle than trying to work it out on his own by trial and painful error.
stupid hippie shit
The correct word would be Asperger. And, indeed does it look like the person you're dealing with is showing some of the signs of the Asperger Syndrome.
Check out this Wiredarticle for more information about the Asperger Syndrome. It includes a short test as well to check yourself out.
Keep in mind that we are talking about children as young as 5 or 6 who begin to experience social problems related to this "syndrome". If some kid has a problem, do you honestly think you can help him by saying "Why do you want friends anyway? You'll be rich some day and they'll work for you." That is nonsense.
I remember when I first noticed my problem. I couldn't learn baseball. I kept asking very precise questions that the other kids wouldn't bother answering. I kept making mistakes. I played a few games, messed everything up. Soon no one would play with me. Then I started to get beat up. That can be very sad for a six-year-old.
It just isn't enough to say "it was their problem." It wasn't. They just wanted to play the game, not explain things to me. It was my problem. Both the kid and the parents have to accept that before it can be solved.
It may not be Asperger's Syndrome. You could start by assuming that what you've already observed is accurate; you say "incredibly smart", so a good place to start research would be giftedness. Google +dobrowski +overexcitabilities will give you some starting point reading. Also on Google, if you can find the writings of the University of NSW's Miraca Gross, it's worth having.
... the choices are:
Social skills go missing in the upbringing of many exceptionally to profoundly gifted children, for good reason: you can't communicate with someone who lacks your vocabulary, sophistication, and interests. With a lack of 'connection' comes isolation; with isolation, the social skills don't happen.
This is not, by the way, a value judgement, but an observation of fact.
As to learning the social skills
- Dumb down; which people eventually resent. You try to imitate their behaviour, but eventually they find out that you're not the same, and react. Usually badly.
- Get used to it, and seek out people like yourself. Painful, and slow. It may never work, but if it does it's worth the effort.
This is probably too far down the chain to even get seen. Find the kid a book club, or get them into a discussion oriented class. The idea here is that: 1. the kid is intellectually stimulated, so s/he won't be bored out of their skull dealing with the usual things kids talk about 2. Since obviously the kid responds best to academic situations, this gives a chance for ideas to be accepted or shot down, and perhaps will lead to critical thinking about why - it's a good mimic for social interactions, while using a subject matter that the kid can dominate and really be engaged with. 3. Maybe someone can be even around to moderate, so that no one gets too offended or upset. Sports? Yeah, right. I think the key here is to provide a medium for testing out social theories in an enviroment that isn't 100% unknown and threatening, which if there is good book chosen, can easily be provided. Odds are, on a sports team, the kid would be totally lost. Not having coordination physically or socially would be death.
Whether they embarass him or decide to "fix him up" the girls will teach him a thing or two far faster than guys.
Wow, what's your charisma at, like 19? I'd get the kid to reroll if possible.
Corporations: your universal scapegoat for all society's ills.
Unless you're willing to sacrifice their intelligence. I speak from experience. I was very gifted in my younger life, perfect grades, high IQ, always the teachers favorite, but once I lost my virginity and became aware of the social heirarchy I was unwillingly doused with in highschool my grades began sinking along with my overall intelligence. Infact I even started off in a computer engineering major in college, but have now decided to switch to... INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS!!!
90% of TKD schools are McDojos (bullshido.com), so my advice to anyone who thinks of learning TKD: MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT GET HOSED. There are some really crappy schools out there. Make sure you learn self defense, not how to dance. Click the link to find some good advice. And yes, I speak from personal experience. Thank god for Jeet Kune Do.
That's right. All your base.
An error is present in many posts of response in this thread; that categories either exist or do not. Rather than propose a solution to an idealized and projected environment (seemingly what are used are the social-science equivalent of "physics-experiment land" in physics), a set of guidelines with emphasis on analysis and response based on the results of these analysis is appropriate; this is more in accord with diplomacy than attempt to impose personal philosophies on other humans as many other replies have been. As to the two vies on the existence of categories, neither is the case. Analysis of the situation is necessary. A strategy for optimum achievement for the individual must be formulated and include the following guidelines: 1) Facilitation of the development of the ability to objectively analyze a situation to determines any and all enemies, the weaknesses of those enemies, the means to manipulate the weaknesses of those enemies, and the ability to analyze the effect of manipulating the weaknesses of those enemies must all be included. 2) Firm and definite pronouncement to the individual of his/her capability to excel at what they have been observed to excel at, and recommendation of related subjects for study while allowing for variance must all be provided. 3) Emphasis that Society/"Others" must be harmed as little as possible, yet not to shy away from causing harm - to also explain that when it is necessary to harm others, that there should be no inordinate hesitation or grief. And finally 4) To obey what can be obeyed given reasonable self interests and to always have an awareness of the full effects of any course of action, whether it is by necessity for the self or by necessity for society. Response of suggestions for refinement or revision of segments are welcome, the intent is to provide a practical strategy for the questioner to implement.
you could teach the kid how to kick the other kids asses for making fun of him. He's smart, evidently, he just needs to learn how to put fear to his use.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I was supposedly one of those "gifted students", although Law School makes me wonder. Anyways, I didn't have in terms of social skills until I started playing music seriously. I spent about 3 years playing in various bands, and it helped me a great deal in that department. Nothing quite forces a person to accept social situations faster than sticking him up on a stage to perform with 3 other guys in front of 100+ people. Between dealing with seedy bar managers, fending off groupies (optional), and convincing dozens of drunk 30-40 year-olds that you really can't play Metallica covers ALL night...he will figure it out pretty fast.
If he has some kind of Autism he is ruined. Because
1. He stays as "smart" as he is but can never understand others Or
2. (as proven by an Aussie professor) He can learn to socialise but lose his superior smarts.
I went to an Australian boys only private school in the WASP tradition, and the boys who took the maths prize usually looked like they could bench press your car. They became doctors and lawyers and real engineers. Its only Americans who think you have to be one or the other.
That includes a dot com multi millionaire who was one of the strongest people I knew then.
That you got beat up actually backs my position. Explain to me how these social skills that include picking on anyone different are desirable. If you'd been able to play baseball like the others, you'd probably be a prat like the others. You're better off. Someone's worth is not soley determined by the number of people they claim to have as friends.
Tell him not to worry about it. School's just a holding pen for all the monkeys he's surrounded by. The following article summarizes it better than I can.
Why Nerds Are Unpopular
And what's with all these suggestions about getting a girlfriend. What kind of advice is that? Women are the biggest waste of time in existence. 90% of men's motivation for sex is sexual, learn to make do with our hand and a vat of vasoline and imagine the time savings.
Check into Aspergers syndrome. First thing you do is throw out the crap that deals with how to make him like the others,or how to "CURE" him, and then concentrate on how to deal with the BS of others. You probably don't want to make him neurotypical, just give him the skills to get by. Why ruin a wonderful mind with all the manipulative crap that the average person, read as the idiots you see on reality TV, enjoy?
It is not a matter of who fits into whose definition of anything. Why even mention it? Your second paragraph about social standards has little to do with Asperger's. Your strawmen are distractions from the real problem.
If you had seen a few people who suffer with Asperger's, you might understand that it is not just a matter of popularity and fitting in. It is can be a very extreme set of problems relating to others. Many people with Asperger's suffer mightily for the way they are, and it is not just a matter of not being cool according to the popular crowd. Maybe it is just my experience of hearing experts talk about the disease. It involves an unusual disconnect from the world that leads to suffering far beyond not getting invited to the cool social functions in high school.
If you really care, I urge you to learn something more than simple information. It is a fantasy to think that Asperger's is just a matter of being weird or that people with it are fine, but just different. Maybe a few fit that idea. Many of them, however, have real difficulties due to a real, diagnosable and clear disorder that should not be dismissed too readily.
A quick stop at the Chicken Ranch, and he'll be a new man.
Ok, so it's a bit of a stretch into a different world, but it may not be a bad idea.
Technique and adherance to some rather stiff social conventions matter in the ballroom dancing world. At least at my primitive level, there are certain ways things are done, and the right approach nearly guarantees success. If the situation is right, and you ask right, she (whoever that is, married, single, hot, ordinary) will probably agree to at least one dance. It will require him to dress up a bit and be clean, but it can be learned as a formula.
The second pint is most important. The ratio of women that can dance to males that are straight, have any skill at all, and aren't going to cop a feel at the first opportunity is very very favorable.
"Modern" dance isn't to be neglected. It isn't to my taste, but I'll always remember and be grateful to the girl that first introduced me to the bump & grind. If she called and asked for a favor she would certainly have it granted in a heartbeat.
Poor motor control skills, inability to pick up on or interpret social cues, dysgraphia (crap handwriting/spelling, among other writing problems), inability to understand facial expressions, body language or changes in inflection/intonation, difficulty with interpreting visual but non-verbal/non-numeric information -- these and a whole bunch more are par for the course with NLD.
Like AS, it's not treatable through medication, but a diagnosis may be a first step in figuring out where to start. I've always had a problem with completely misinterpreting people's motivations, for instance; after I was diagnosed NLD, my psychologist suggested, "Why not ask people to just explain to you what they meant by a gesture or facial expression, instead of assuming the worst?" It's a completely obvious answer, but it had never occurred to me, because I'd never had any reason to question what was going on. Stupid? Well, it sure seems that way now. But it wasn't obvious at the time, and since then, I've started asking other questions that have led me to be more socially capable -- i.e., to better pick up on things that most people find "obvious".
If there's a value in diagnoses of NLD, AS and related autism-spectrum disorders, I think it comes in the fact that other people who've gotten these sorts of diagnoses in the past have come up with useful coping mechanisms which can be learned by someone who doesn't learn the way "normal" people do. And drawing on a resourceful community is a hell of a lot better than going it alone.
Dance like nobody's watching. Sing like you're in the shower. Fuck like you're being filmed.
This isn't one of my more favorite topics, but, since it's clearly important to you, and presumably this kid is worth it, I'm going to spend some time this evening and write about a few of my experiences growing up. *Maybe*, if you're lucky, you'll find a better solution to this than "He has to find his own way"
I was identified at age 5 as a gifted student. After a brief and demoralizing year switching schools and climbing my way back up, I moved into those advanced classes again, and was moved into a gifted program in 5th grade (The first year a separate program was available in my school system). To add to my separation from my classmates, I have worn glasses since age 4, and can't see more than fuzzy shapes 18 inches away without them.
When I say separation from my classmates, I mean specifically the majority not in the gifted classes. Being one of 5 people culled out of 200 (small town, I know) makes you one step above special ed kids in the social order.
Teachers, take note, public praise in class for those students that do well is a good thing, to some extent. However, excessive use of encouragement in several grades served to draw attention to our difference from our classmates. There is such a thing as too much encouragement, too publicly.
One might think we'd band together. However, that wasn't exactly the case. 5 headstrong kids with wildly different interests doesn't exactly work. Oh we'd try, but to some extent it was merely that we didn't exclude each other, rather than that we were close or included one another.
Gifted class instructors seemed much more intent on focusing on maximizing our future potential and SAT scores 8 years out than on teaching us effective communication and interpersonal skills. In retrospect, study of politics and the acquisition of power probably would have been a more effective motivator as a reason to learn social skills.
But I digress. I got lucky. My father finally struck upon a plan to get me more involved in team activities, with a motivator I could understand.
Air Force Junior ROTC in high school. Laugh if you will, but here's the motivator.
If you want to go to college, you have to have money, be particularly outstanding, or be financially disadvantaged. Unfortunately, my family was essentially lower middle class, made too much on paper to get much financial aid, and made too little to afford it. Most small business owners in rural america fall into this category.
So, know what you have to do to get into a military academy? You have (or had at that time) to be sponsored, usually by a state senator or representative. For some people, this happens behind the scenes because of thier scores, others have to apply, and find someone to sponsor them. But, to get in on merit, there is one scholarship, and sponsorship, available per year from each ROTC school.
So, by excelling, I had an opportunity to go to a truly good school. Hence my enrollment in ROTC.
Now for the lucky part. I made a lifelong friend, joined the drill team, and learned, in a structured environment, how to deal with others in my age group. How to work in a team, and how to develop my leadership skills.
My friend, to whom I am eternally grateful, took me out, taught me to drink beer, smoke, a variety of other things, and challenged me in ways I hadn't been challenged.
Oh, I'd played baseball (badly, poor depth perception) and swim team (slowly, good stamina though, 400 meter medley), but those were challenges my brain could only help so much with.
No, conquering fear, that was the challenge game we were into. My friend took me to a set of cliffs, dropped a rope over the side, and taught me to rappel. He and another buddy taught me to ride a motorcycle. Then we got into motorcross. The variety of reckless dares taken based on the "No Balls" motivator was staggering in retrospect.
Now these were sports! Things I could do that took physical exertion, but required significant nerve and concentration. Chall
Point him to the marijuana and the psychedelics, my friend!
No, really!
The psychedelics are an amazing group of substances that can open one up in many ways to the parts of their mind that they are not able to use, understand, or exercise.
But, it requires immense preparation and dedication to get good results... There are many resources available out there. MAPS is a good place to start (www.maps.org)
"To fathom hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic"
So, it's pretty tough to draw any concrete conclusions about someone and their problems from a short description. On top of that, I'm not a shrink. So take this reply, and every other reply in this thread, with a major grain of salt.
Part of the problem could be that the kid in question and his peers all buy into the same 'geek' stereotype that led you to ask this question here, and which leads us to think after reading a few lines that we know something about the kid's problems. If that's the case, then it might help to find some activity outside of the Geekish Pursuits for the kid to try.
If it were me, I might say: "Look, you and I know you're pretty darn smart. But I think that you might think that being smart is the only thing you can be good at, and I'm here to tell you that it doesn't have to be that way. So lets go do something outside of your normal experience that'll help you believe a little more in yourself and bust out of this Geek stereotype that's currently keeping you down."
Then, I'd find some activity that I enjoy and give him a gentle introduction. A physical activity where you can start off slow and build up over time would be good. Running, cycling, or climbing might be good choices. With some encouragement from you, any one of those will build confidence and over time also turn your geek into some sort of athlete.
Another possibility is something artistic and expressive, like writing, painting, or photography.
You need to, without making them feel unwanted or put down by suggestions, make them think a bit about their outwards apperence.
After reading this I understand why you have a hard time socializing with girls, and how you have a girlfriend at all is simply amazing. You do NOT need to make a girl think about her outward appearance, if anything you need to make the girl think LESS about her outward appearance. A lot of girls are obsessive over the way they look (eating disorders, breast implants) and it can be damaging, it doesn't help to hand your girlfriend a comb and say something stupid like that. That's like saying "Your hair doesn't look good enough for me today, here's a comb and you'd better fix it." No one likes their faults pointed out, even if you do it subtly.
Unless you're girlfriend's dead or in a coma or something I'm sure you'd never have to hint to her that her hair is messed up, she knows, she doesn't even need a mirror she just knows. The WORST thing for you to do is hint that it's messed up and the BEST thing to do is say something possitive about her to take her mind off her hair (and maybe YOU can be a nice boyfriend and fix her hair for her while you talk about something together.)
As a young geek teach he should know the importance of Compound interest. The more he invests in the future now. When he is older and ready to score with the chicks he will be able to afford to pay for them like the rest of us nerds. Instead of building one, not that he wont be smart enough to. If you don't believe me here is proof that it has worked in the past. Revenge of the nerds
You don't need to teach your child 'social skills'. A person who is brilliant at science, mathematics, and computers will find their own social circle which benefits them in all of the ways they need to be enriched.
Forcing a person to develop 'social skills' always equates to 'dumbing down' of a person's natural desires to make them more 'social' and forcing them to participate in events and situations not suited to their personal needs. Not everyone desires or mentally requires playing football or wrestling or (insert here) to be socially innate.
I am exactly this way. My parents fortunately never forced me to participate in anything and I developed my own personal circle of social activity which suited me intellectually and personally. Now, as I am pursuing my Ph.D. in Pure Mathematics and I wish to share my gifts with the world, I am also a full-time participant in SCCA ProRally and SCCA Autocross Solo II. I am the member of many national and international Mathematics associations and dream of the day I may be published. There is more, but I am not the point of this post, your child is.
Do yourself a favor and do your child a favor...never stop trying to find out what makes them happy, what challenges them, what makes them blossom and then support them in all ways that you can with 100% of your abilities. That is all you can do, the rest is up to your child.
Why Nerds are Unpopular. By appealing to his intellect, you can show him the forces at work at school, and why he has to conquer them. It's silly asking a nerd to become not-a-nerd because its "the right thing to do" (which is what most arguments amount to)... but show him how popularity works, and how he might take advantage of it for himself, and you may get somewhere.
"Make Me Cool," a primetime reality series in which a squad of hip African Americans helps terminally uncool individuals -- not just Caucasians -- overcome their obstacles. Reality tv can solve anything.
Other famous people with aspergers/autistic traits. http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Stonewall/4 502/famousac.html
Dude, nothing- and I mean NOTHING- fucked me up MORE in high school and grade school than the goddamned jocks. If you're not a jock, it doesn't matter if you're "on a team" or not- you're shafted into the shittiest position and made a target of opportunity by the opposing team, slammed into "By accident" and blamed for the failures of your own team, and generally shat on until you're ground into dust.
You want to fuck the kid up, stick him with a bunch of primates that play sports all day. See how he likes his life in a few years.
Or actually even better, get him into Counter Strike! That way he can learn how to communicate with other players to survive a round while still enjoying the game. try Counterstrike.org for a list of servers.
It depends on the environment. If they're in a school where a sports culture is emphasized and classroom performance is not, maybe it helps to hear that they are special, even if they can't run fast or jump far.
'Better' is a relative term - you can only be better at a given task than someone else but not absolutely better than them.
I see this sort of idiotic reasoning as crappy self-justification, sort of an "I'm better than everyone and that's why they hate me".
You do realize that this does happen, don't you? Try going to work for a company that thinks they're hiring someone average when they hire you. Then do several things at your normal skill level, without knowing that you've just shown up the skills of an entire group of veterans. See what happens. See if they'll let you continue doing that, or if they dumb down your work so you don't make waves. It's quite possible for people to hate you because you're better than they are.
The solution? Work with people at your same level. It's better to impress with your work than it is to frighten.
-- Fratz, human
its good we're finally asking these question instead of sitting by and ridiculing others for what they are. I guess one way about dealing with the problem he has is to reinforce his confidence. So what if his hair is bad?? yup martial arts could reinforce his confidence.. but nothing like including him in your peer group where he gets appreciated.. you know the lil pat on the back that could go a loong way
...and higher a prostitute to boost his self esteem.
Just give him a couple beers
I attest to this. My school had the no-cut cross-country thing as well, and one guy who was on it was the ABSOLUTE WORST runner back in junior high. But he perservered. He was absolutely teased to no end (he was very reserved, and spoke slowly) to begin with, but people saw his perserverence. He never became the most popular person or what not, but he did win the Most Inspirational Player during senior year, and he did get cheers from everyone at our school at the few cross-country events I witnessed. I think it really helped him a lot, as he was more talkative and open at graduation.
Now, on the other hand, don't have a kid try for a sport that has cuts, is really competitive, and they aren't good at. There was one guy try out for the JV B-ball team and he was absolutely terrible on the court. He had apparently been practicing for a while (playing with his friends). However, he never improved, and when you looked at him play it just seemed like it was a bad idea to begin with. I think he was crushed when the coach basically told him to stop and that he had no chance. But sports where there are not many throw-away spots, you cannot give spots to the ungifted.
Moral of the stories... competition isn't for everyone?!?... hmm, oh well.
0- Eamonman Proud member of DNRC
The kid stuck in a little masturbatory shell of internal fractalization and is lazy so he lets others carry his weight while he dreams of the 5th dimension. To wake him up, the following may help:
* A group of thuggish kids who will smack the kid up until he snaps out of it
* Repeated extreme embarrassment until desensitization occurs
* Drugs and alcohol
* Forced enrollment in the wrestling team
* Forced Shoplifting
* Sex with a prostitute
* Putting out a cigarette on the back of his hand
After all this, he might actually be the most extroverted and alpha of all the kids in class.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
as you stated, you are a geek so this shouldn't be hard. Teach him to play Magic: The Gathering, find him a card store that hosts tournaments and let him run wild in there for a bit. It's a hige social scene where any one can play and every type of person does, eventually he'll find a friend there.
Like the Johnny Cash song, just name the kid Sue and he'll be forced to grow out of his shell.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Um, I think the comb was supposed to be given to the kid with uncombed hair. It wasn't completly clear, but that's the way I read it.
As a kid, I had a hard time with communicating with other kids my age just because I was so much smarter than they were. A second grader who reads highschool science textbooks for fun doesn't really have much in common with other second grade girls who's idea of a hard book is The Babysitter's Club series.
Plus, it can be rather isolating when even most adults haven't got a clue about the things you're interested in.
Sometimes I think that it would be easier to be average and to go along happily clueless of anything below the surface of things.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
Im by no means gifted, but had social problems due to the way i was brought up and whe way i just didnt interact with society. I played hockey and other team sports but i was quite introverted and would never make any friends. The thing is to get him to do something really out of his or her element. Make them feel uncomfortable (within reason) and get him or her to learn to cope. What really changed me was a drama course. Get them to do something that would express their inner feelings with other and see how other people are. Once they get comfortable with a certant crowd other than gifted people it becomes easier to express feeling. Get them to the point where tehy realize that there is more to life than work and learning. If they are of age, take them out to a pub night or something. All i know is that at the moment im tired and my thoughts are all over the place. I guess what im trying to say is get them out of their element. Make them feel a little uncomfortable. If they are truly gifted, their desire to learn will take over and one would imagine that they would try and figure out how social interaction works. Once again, please excuse the random strung together thoughts.
enroll this kid in ROTC.
Uhh i think he was talking about the kid, not about girls in general...
Choose yer poison: Prophets or Profits
Get him involved in a gifted children group (lyceum in california) it helps to bring people out of their shell.
Teach him to play soccer, he'll get good exercise and will be forced to socialize with team members.
(soccer is not dependent on hand-eye coordination, only foot-eye coordination which is easier to learn) You usually get a different type of 'jock' playing soccer, not as much a meathead and usually more excepting.
>Getting out of his age group might help. ...
>significant out-of-age interaction, short-circuiting the need for every kindergarten class to reconstruct society from scratch; is it any surprise they get it so wrong?
Just because we grew up in this society and take it for granted doesn't mean it's natural, normal or functional.
Through most of history a developing human's life involved caring for younger ones and working with older ones. In my darker moments I think the people who set up schools on a foundation of age-based apartheid got their inspiration from reading "The Lord of the Flies".
My brother looks like an Asperger case, and it's been rediculously difficult to convince him that it's worth his effort to learn and conform to certain social norms. I think the most difficult part is showing someone how it's actually worthwhile to learn basic social norms for such simple things as dinner-table conversation, which he can't even handle. It sounds like this guy's student has the same issues (ie I bet he knows he's expected comb his hair but doesn't see why he really should).
I don't mean to be a prat, but I think you're wrong. These 'gifted' people are really just autistics. Now someone autistic enough to realise they're autistic is going to be fine, but these quasi-autistics who don't realise their deficienies become super-arrogant because there's so much they don't beging to realise is there. They'll become arrogant very easily, gifted class or not.
The original poster and much of the discussion is doing a good job of perpetuating the common stereotypes of gifted children.
s .htm) was that
e nius Stereotypes.html) where David A. Gershaw, PhD writes:
One large long term study was done by Terman starting in the eary 20th century. One main conclusion, well stated by Judith Hewton (http://www.qagtc.org.au/definitions_of_giftednes
"Terman's studies have demonstrated that his gifted were not socially or emotionally bereft and have been largely very successful throughout their lives."
There is a nice summary at
(http://www3.azwestern.edu/psy/dgershaw/lol/G
We tend to share specific stereotypes of the intellectually gifted. Genius is seen as being "akin to insanity." Intellectually gifted people are stereotyped as being physically "puny." Many people believe that high intelligence has little to do with success in later life. Are these beliefs true?
To test these statements, psychologist Louis Terman began a study in 1921, which has become a classic in its field. Terman and his associates screened approximately 250,000 junior high students (11-13 years of age) in the Los Angeles area to identify about 1500 children with IQ's of 140 or above. (This is the top one percent of the population as far as intelligence is concerned. The mean (average) IQ for his select group was 150. (Only one person in 5000 would have an IQ that high by chance.)
As they grew older, these "gifted children" were repeatedly interviewed and tested by Terman. His work was carried on by Robert and Pauline Sears at Stanford University. They interviewed Terman's gifted group as late as 1977, and in the 1980s, they still maintained contact with those still living. (During that decade, most members of the gifted group were in their 70s.)
The stereotype of the gifted person as being physically "puny" was contradicted by Terman's study. In fact, gifted persons were found to be significantly taller, heavier and healthier than their average peers.
In addition to physical traits, the gifted group excelled in psychological adjustment. In other words, genius is not "akin to insanity." Follow-up interviews demonstrated that there was less divorce and suicide and fewer mental disorders compared to the population as a whole. If you think of it, it sounds very logical. One of the definitions of intelligence involves superior problem-solving abilities. If you are more able to solve problems related to life and marriage, you are less likely to be suicidal, mentally disordered or divorced. All in all, gifted people were found to be better-adjusted socially and psychologically than the average.
Still many people believe that superior intelligence is limited to a narrow area (like math) or is not related to success in later life. In contrast to these views, Terman's gifted subjects outpaced typical students by two to four grades and excelled in all courses, refuting the belief in narrow specialization.
I worked in the college of education computer lab and did the same thing. Smile and they'd often wave and smile back.
A couple years before that I worked at a pizza and arcade place. I came in one night just to hang out for a bit and all the guys were checking out this girl so I go up and they tell me to give her some lame line about how my friend thinks she's cute. I have no shame so I walk over and go "My friend over there thinks your cute." She looks straight at me and goes "I think you're the cutest one here." She ended up writting her number on a dry erase board for me and after she left I erased it because I'm a moron. But it was okay because she was pretty flaky and ended up dating the guy who usually works the prize counter. I guess she flashed him once while we were open in plain view of a bunch of kids. That got his attention.
4-5 years later, which would be last week when I went to see The Passion I walked into the theater to wait for a couple friends and I see her standing there. She starts walking over and goes "I know you." She gives me a hug and after a exchanging two lines of dialog to get caught up a bit she's gone.
Now I'm a programmer and sit behind a desk. Sure I have less opportunities to make a complete ass of myself but those are some good stories. I actually took a second job at Mervyn's for awhile to meet girls. Worked too. Though I didn't stick around long enough for anything to happen. My weekends are worth more than $30.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
yeah, that's how you deal with stupid people.
I agree with what you did. What would assaulting the man have done? There are plenty of people who did fucked up (similar) things to me in my past and I seek no revenge. The events have passed. My hurting them won't help any others; and it won't help me.
Photos.
My wife had very large breasts in high school PICS??
If he/she is *truly* a gifted child, then a psychologist should be in the picture. In my experience, school guidance counselors don't have the necessary skills to deal with the socio-psychological aspects of gifted children.
/.'ers, houah!)
If this person is of age, sometimes career counseling at the local university can help. They sometimes have programs where a supervised PhD student in psychology makes a psychological profile of the person, which can help him/her sort out who they are. I don't think any of us would be as qualified as a professional in this field. (Not to diss my fellow
The problem is usually these kids rely on crappy guidance counselors who think they know what they are doing.
Heh, you'll probably never read this, but anyway. I was one of these 'gifted' types with poor social skills. What I really was born with was mercury poisoning. Most 'gifted' types are like this (heavy-metal poisoned; it's relatively common). They're not really gifted as such - it's just that the parts of their brains that do the social things are in deficiency, so their higher-function abilities increase as a result. It is these higher-function areas of intelligence that are what are recognised as intelligence in IQ tests and in popular culture. The truth is that they are not more intelligent than the average person, but their intelligence is allocated to different areas from the norm.
Basically, the production of various enzymes & things in their brain is compromised. You can get back much of this function with a comprehensive vitamin / mineral supplementation regime. I take everything in sundry, and have become far less autistic and far more socially perceptive over the last year.
Your doctor won't know or have a bar of this, but it does work. Find someone who is an expert in this, or learn it yourself, and you'll be surprised what you can do.
Ok the problem is that you yourself see this as a problem and this could send the wrong message. Give this kid a break and simply be his friend. That is all you ought to do. Give him some good books to read, get him a comb and tell him he is the smartest kid you ever met.
I don't think that sheltering children in the early years is a bad thing. Once they've developed a mature enough stance to be taught how to stand up against bullies, bigots, etc. then they can be introduced to the full gamut of the social strucure. However, you have to remember that these people who display extra intellectual prowess above and beyond their peers are effectively skipping HUGE areas of development that the rest of us have gone through. Getting them involved in more challenging material early on and protecting them is crucial to keeping them involved in that material, in my mind.
Amen to that. It's extremely hard being the smart kid in a group of average kids. My older brother was the smartest kid at his school (and I mean this literally--he had the highest IQ score of any kid ever at that school). By first grade he was writing stories about violently destroying his classroom if he were teacher for a day, largely because he had a teacher who had no clue how to deal with smart kids. My parents started homeschooling when he was in 5th grade, and from that point on until he graduated, he spent most of his time in his room reading about astronomy (and then getting up in the middle of the night to take his telescope out), he taught himself ancient Greek (and learned it so well that he knew it better than his college professors) and Latin, and while he didn't have many friends while in school, when he went off to college he ended up with tons of friends and had all kinds of girls chasing him.
Speaking personally, it's so very hard to be a little kid and be working on an intellectual level that most adults you know aren't even on. The only person I knew who could even remotely understand me was the aforementioned older brother (I never was IQ tested, but my parents always suspected I was smarter than him). Adding to that was that I was a girl who was into things that girls are't "supposed" to be interested in or good at, and you start to get the picture of what it's like to go through childhood when you're so much smarter than everyone else. All I can say is that I'm very glad I was homeschooled, because while I've always had fairly decent social skills, it can get to be rather stressful spending all your time having to talk down to people who can't understand half of your vocabulary, and to have to make small talk about things that you think are absolutely inane. If I had had to spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week doing that, I think I really would have turned into a nerd with no social skills because I would have ended up getting bored with talking down to people and ended up avoiding people altogether.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
WOW. the real morons on slashdot usually post anonymously, but you had the balls to use your real name. Way to troll!
You're asking a bunch of nerdy 13 year olds with no social life how to instill social skills in a nerdy 13 year old? *shrug* Hope it works out for you man.
I got my black belt in high school, and was having individual lessons for a year. Looking back on it, I can say that it was a complete waste of time.
:>
:> A romantic relationship will do more for his social skills and self awareness than anything else, let alone his happiness. Good luck.
Karate is like ballet for boys. They teach you nothing useful. If you are truly dedicated, can develop the kind of self-satisfied confidence that wins you no friends. Even if it did teach you how to fight (which it doesn't), is a reactionary, disciplinary regimen based on violence a constructive way to teach someone to relate to others?
What I would recomend are activities that:
A) Develop a sense of accomplishment and responsibility.
Perhaps he can use his skills in a way that will be noticed/appreciated by his social environment. Building tools for the school? Working on social work outside class, related to his spheres of interest? Perhaps he should build the next napster?
In another direction, mentoring even younger students is a very powerful way to develop self-awareness.
B) Show him that the world is bigger than his peer group.
It is important that he is given an alternative point of reference from the one they are offering him. Otherwise, he will always feel intimidated, and stifled. Showing him that there are a myriad of ways to exist will help him discover his own identity.
C) Introduce him to lots of new people, so that he can
1. Make mistakes in relationships and be able to move on. We all learnt crucial social lessons from situations that we caused and we able to walk away from.
2. Pick and choose friends he is especially comfortable with.
3. Get a better chance of getting laid
If it is a boy, you should be aware of the theory of the psychologist Harry Stack Sullivan that boys need a "chum" or "chums" (other boys about his age who are his friends) in their early adolescence years, or they are doomed to a lifetime of not socializing well.
It is critical during those years that the child is not separated from his chums.
So long as you do that, everything else in socialization will fall into place.
That goes for gifted and non-gifted boys alike.
I'm not a psychologist, but I play one on Slashdot.
I think the wise thing to do is to take him to couple of prOn sites and say to him:
"You have to be a bit more social if you want to get some ass later in line. If you don't attain those skills now it is going to be you and your right hand every weekend buddy."
Why I didn't attain my social skills until i turned 23. Now i'm the life of the party everywhere I go. My right hand still keeps me company but I do get some ass now.
Social skills go two ways. It's no shock that Jessica Simpson is an outgoing person. I'm sure she's been treated differently for a long time. Social skills are as much a feedback mechanism as they are a raw skill. Just like confidence. This is not to say there aren't smart people with social skills. I'm just saying he needs motivation to preen himself.
So, the key is that he** atleast socializes with someone. He needs to feel that the investment in his personal grooming is worth something. He probably feels that combing his hair and coordinating his clothes doesn't give him much ROI.
First, he needs to improve his self-image. I think weightlifting (or running, etc) is a great place to start. Martial arts is good too. Second, he needs to find a outlet for social activity. He needs to find a place where he will be both accepted and recieve some sort of positive feedback causing himself to feel the investment in appearance is worth something.
Perhaps the best thing you can do is provide oportunities for him to socialize. For instance, maybe you and a couple of the other college students could take the high school students out for the day. Get a group of them together. Your student probably never will hang out with jocks. That's fine, as long as he finds his own circle of friends.
(** I'm picking a sexist pronoun and sticking with it!)
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
Put them in a situation with 'ordinary' people, out there in the world, and make no mention of the 'gifted' moniker ever again.
This is the biggest crock of shit modern education has given us from the 21st Century, incidentally. Every single human being alive today is 'gifted', with life.
Calling some kid 'gifted' on the basis of some wonderful -observed- factor of their personality, and giving other kids hard-core drugs on the basis of other -observations-
This very phenomenon of diversion, separation, and segragation, on the basis of some 'experiment' controlled through another human beings observation, in a desire to make a 'better human being'.
We may as well just start making Aryans again.
5,000,000,000 (+ 0's) people in this world. Every single one of them is 'gifted'. Most of them are thirsty.
All you're doing, by creating 'gifted children' is making a very, very small subset of another very small subset, of a small group of people, run from the infinite reality that every single human being has to face, which is the fact of the existence of every other human being on the planet at this point in time, here and now
Put someone above that for a second, and of course they will come to ignore their responsibilities to wipe their ass and not pick their noses in public. It will have driven them, slightly, mad.
We are all equally gifted. It is the only way to live.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Well, of course, on a surface level that question is silly - you do need some social skills to exist in a society - to be able to communicate with people you need to work with and to talk to/become friends with people that you like. But, beyond that, I'm not at all sure trying to force 'social skills' on somebody is a brilliant idea. It took me quite a while to figure out why I didn't want to talk with most people or 'hang out' at parties or do stuff like that, but, once I did have it figured out, it was obvious. The vast majority of people are neither too smart nor too interesting. They have no ideas of their own, do not know what they're doing with their lives and basically just live along trying to find confirmation in their worth by soliciting the 'respect' and 'friendship' (mostly in the form of alcohol consumption/pointless chatter) of others. If you have your own ideas about the world and some things that you wish to achieve, those people will hold no attraction to you - it is not wrong, but natural. The worst thing one can possibly do is to tell a person who doesn't enjoy such people that s/he is somehow wrong and should be different - it is everyone else that should be different, not those few who actually have dedication to something. That does not mean a dedicated and/or smart person should live in isolation, by any means. The solution is to find other people who are as hardworking, smart or dedicated. The odds are one will enjoy social interaction with people of one's own intellect and determination. It's sometimes by no means easy to find such people - I'm in what is supposed to be one of the most academic colleges in the whole US, but the number of people that are interesting to me here is by no means overwhelming. Let me stress this again: do not let the person you're trying to help believe he is wrong merely because he does not find the prospect of talking with the people around him fascinating. Instead, try to nudge him into meeting people of his caliber - is there something like a student science focus group in there, for instance? In Latvia (my home country), some of the most intelligent people I'd ever met I met in a science fiction society, but I've observed US societies are sometimes different, so I'm not sure about that one. Give him intelligent stuff to read - Le Guin comes readily to mind (especially the intelligent YA novelette A Long Way from Anywhere Else, though this could be interpreted as too obviously didactic, or other works) and definitely R. A. Heinlein, perhaps Ayn Rand if he is ready for that kind of reading (The Fountainhead in particular) - her overflowing enthusiasm for individual strength is invaluable. Once he has confidence that he is not somehow crippled by lacking these 'social skills' everyone talks of, he'll develop all the skills he needs. Of other things mentioned in this thread, I definitely endorse martial arts practice. I started taking aikido at 15 after 15 years of almost no physical activity whatsoever - once I realized I could be quite good at it, it did reams for the physical aspect of my self-confidence. And aikido is really a nice art for a geek - it won't scare you with broken teeth immediately, making it easier to start, but, once you're going, it can be effective and devastating (I've seen some former 'nerds' in aikido that I'd certainly never want to meet in a dark alley. . .)
'nuff ranted.
Asperger's often manifests differently in girls, for starters. Girls grow up in a world of social networks. This means they may be more likely than boys to learn social skills. BUT, they do not learn them intuitively, as most people do. They learn them the way most people learn to do algebra or build a birdhouse from a blueprint: first step A, then you do B, then you should get results C.
Of course you are right that lack of social skills != Aspergers. But it's not true that all Aspergers affected people are like your friend.
This is going to sound more a bit weird, and a bit gay, but I'm serious here, get him into Ballroom Dancing.
Ballroom Dancing does wonder for a guy with girls. When your forced to dance with a girl, 3 inches away from them, actually making, you know, physical contact with a girl, and your forced to do this two hours a day every day, you get VERY comfortable VERY fast. I used to be absoloutly pathetic with girls, never been on a date or anything. I joined Ballroom Dance company at my univiserity as a bit of a fluke, changed my whole percption on life socially, and now I current have a girlfriend where before I never even went on a date. Trust me, Ballroom Dancing will do wonders to a guy who doesn't know how to act towards ladies. Not only that, it will teach you how to treat a girl. How to lead them, guide them, work with them, etc.
-Drew
- Send 'em away from home for several weeks or longer at a time.
- Send them to a place thats culturally different (North Dakota to South Dakota doesn't count, from the suburbs to inner city New York is better, any foreign country is best. Tip: IRELAND - They speak english - sort of, very open to kids, crap TV)
- Do like my parents did, move to a different country every 2nd year
Downside: The kid loses the friends in the old places.
Upside: He has to learn how to make new friends, how to break into existing social networks, to adapt to a different culture, how to depend upon himself.
This won't turn an introverted geek into a social lion, but you do learn the mechanics of meeting new people, building relationships, making friends - it helps to maximise whatever potential social IQ is present.
This is not just from personal experience: I have several friends with similar backgrounds, and they have maxed their potential in this field. If they'd grown up in one single place, they would have turned into carbon copies of Rain Man.
Not confused enough? http://translate.google.com/translate?u=www.slashdot.jp&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ja&tl=en
Geniuses seem often to suffer from an autistic sort of blinkered egocentrism. Try filming him surreptitiously in typical (anti-)social situations and then play the results back to him later. I can think of nothing so jarring as being forced to view yourself in true third-person perspective "as others see you" and it might result in the poor kid gaining some insight. Either that or he'll kill himself.
I would have to agree with you...the problem seems to be the people making fun of others...It may sound totally geeky and weak but even bullies and popular people find out you can't resort to:
1.)forceful or mean tactics (because sooner or later your judge of character will lead you into situations you can not control.)
2.)good looks or vaporous social clicks (because neither build half as strong a ties as i've found most "geeky" people do)
Fortunately for most, there are very few people who stay truly geeky. They hit puberty late, and then change drastically over a matter of months (sometimes loosing the edge that would have called them gifted in the process).
But for those of us who don't have this puberty switch, i would suggest that they start from the outside and work their way in. senseless statistic I estimate about 40-60% of children to higher educations students are in nearly the same shoes (minus the gifted part). Not only is that an advantage to those who are gifted, but this provides people who will have no problem with associating with us geeks.
It is this acquired learning of social skills through experience which led me to be a socially adept geek...(plus when i hit college beer was a constant inhibition lowering buddy) thankfully a lot less of a buddy now
It worked wonders for me. Girls like fit guys and it is a nice balence to mental work.
I make my kids swim 500-1000 meters a week (they do freestyle now, takes them about 10-15 minutes, and they can play in the pool for about an hour beforehand)). They also do Jijitsu (I am clueless abou that).
We are sending our kids to acting classes, and they like it, even though my son is really quite the geek.
But you have to MAKE them do it. They will usually like it in the end, but most kids (people) have a huge amount of lethargy to overcome.
Depending, getting him involved in theater can be very good. High school theater is where I developed most of my social skills; I wasn't an actor, but actors do a shitty job when no one can see them. There's enough 'technical' content in the lighting/sound/set side of theater to keep your average geek interested (especially if you start getting into the mathematics of sound or a lot of the computer-controlled things that exist), and the people in the theater are generally pretty social while at the same time appreciating people who can actually do something (like, for instance, use a circle saw to put together a set, or properly mike a stage).
That said; at the high school I went to, the theater kids were a pretty inclusive group who got along and weren't too insular. Cliques existed within the group, but they weren't bad, and people had friends inside and outside. Talking to people from other schools, that experience is not universal.
So, to generalize: find a social group that does something you enjoy that isn't entirely geeky, but has some things you'll do well at. Make sure they're accepting of people who can do things. Then go to it.
The more you try to make them like everyone else, the less they will stand out with their abilities.
I'm not going to talk about myself but I can say that i've seen both sides of the story.
Even though anyone can learn something, people tend to have natural talents at certain things.
I think the most important thing would be to help them identify what they enjoy the most and help them to follow this path. It is through there that they will build relationships with others who will unify talent, not divide it.
Find some nude photos of Catherine Zeta-Jones -- preferably with a little muff involved.
then he'll get to wear tights, handle chicks, and
practice kicking guys in the nads with those
fancy shoes.
I can speak from experience.
- I had zero (0) friends up to age 17.
- I noticed that there was a discrepancy between my assessment of social situation and other people's.
- I resolved that I had to make a rational (as opposed to instinctive / empathic) effort to get into other people's shoes.
From then on, it was blindingly easy.
Put it this way to him:
* he can BE himself, look as such, and pay a price,
OR
* slowly learn "the language", get in the habit of reading all those cues, and do a little bit of acting.
"Be Yourself", although repeated ad nauseam in all sorts of poems, songs, sitcoms, alley psychology tracts and anysuch, is the worst possible advice.
Being clever helps. Most normals are sufficiently slow that one can run circles around them processing their social cues by means of one's nonsocial engine without even taxing it too much, and they'll hardly ever notice.
Once you get the hang of it, it can be fun, not unlike training dogs.
And if normals are of the clever sort, they'll understand your game, won't get offended, wink, and play on.
Asking /. readers how to teach a kid social skills? Is this a tongue-in-cheek question or just a newbie?
If anyone is interested in an account of Asperger's, Mark Haddon's novel "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time" is well worth a read. Winner of the Whitbread Book of the Year award earlier this year and available from all good bookshops...
Dave W.
Seriously. I really wish when I was a kid instead of my parents putting me in situations that just made me feel more embarassed, (Karate... BAH!!!) they would have just asked me what I wanted to do.
Truth be told, his point of frustration is probably that he's looking for more friends that have similar interests and coming up short. I never understood why so many parents and teachers look at geekiness as a deficiency, rather than admit the world is mostly full of boring dolts. Usually when a geeky child/teen is complaining he wishes he had more friends, he means more friends he CAN RELATE TO, not more braindead acquaintances. Unfortunately, as a parent or teacher, you're not an all-powerful deity able to grant his wish by creating other geeky youth for him to socialize with. Keep in mind, your trivial superficial social skills don't mean anything to geeks, so admit your advice would be inappropriate.
The answer I wish I was told when I was younger:
You can either learn to accept the fact you're interested in things that will not lead to a grand social life, or you can choose to do things you may find uninteresting to be more socially accepted. Somewhere in the middle, there's a balence. Any choice is correct, it's up to you to decide.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
It is rarely a problem (though sometimes it is) for anyone to socialise with their peers. If you are a math geek, you can easily communicate with other math geeks. If you are a programmer, talking with other programmers (about programming) is easy. While this is not always the best solution, may be he doesn't need to spend his time with people he doesn't like/understand/care about.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Hmmmm... A sociopathic genius, you say... Might I suggest showing him Slashdot? He seems to be absolutely perfect by our standards. He will fit perfectly. Who knows, he might even become an editor some day...
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
"...memorising a set of strategies for coping with the stupidity of other people" sounds to me a lot like a neural net learning social skills. Living memory is very different from simple recording because in neural nets transcoding and recording are inextricably entwined (arguably they are the same operation).
How is this different from "acquiring experience" ?
I agree, from my limited experience (we have about one diagnosed Asperger's student coming through our CS programme each year) and the information available this does seem worth looking into.
The point is that Asperger's is a fairly well-defined problem -- there are diagnostic tests and established forms of support. Also, at least in the UK it is recognised as a disability and you can get some extra support from various public institutions on account of it. If this is the case, you should be able to find fairly specific practical advice on how to support this student.
No one ever fucked with me again (chief geek) after I turned up 15 years ago at a 5th grade school ball, set up my drum machine, sampler and synths and blew them all away with banging techno for half an hour. Ever.
NLP (Neuro-Linguistical Programming) is a great subject for this kinda stuff. Its based on the modelling of sucessful people in any depth you wish. Covers things like building rapport with people, as well as confidence and the like. I noticed that most of the decent material is in book format, and not on the net. Search google, but note that a lot of the links will lead to commercial websites rather than useful information.
who needs courage when you got a gun?!
Get him drunk. Not stoned, drunk. Half of unsocial people's problems is thierselves, the other half is other people, right? If you get him drunk, take him to a party half late, and dont just leave him there but watch him, involve him in conversations. he will be on the same level as everybody else, stupid :P his inhibitions will be lifted, so theres himself taken care of. taking him to a drunken party entails he will be like everybody else there, drunk and stupid, so theres everybody else taken care of. the rest falls into place.
Gnome wasnt built in a day.
... send him abroad for a year, if he`s around 16. There are even scholarships from places like yfu or afs. Dont go with the coomercials. And a year abroad really helps you reflect on culture, society and your place in it. It doesn`t matter where he goes, either. Does not have to be an exotic place. Just make shure he feels comfortable with his choice. He`ll think he knows everything about the place, and maybe that it going to be one long holiday, and then he`ll find out. Kind of stressful experience for a youngster, but cool to no end.
Of course, if the kid hates music or has a tin ear, there's always karate.
[this
Tell him to watch a few episodes of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Maybe then the see he need to change the way he looks and smells.
When I was in college, We had this one professor who was brilliant at his work (numerical methods in astrophysics) and a good teacher. However the guy had no social skills outside of his teaching, and he looked like a tramp. A fellow student ran into him at a train station one day and said "hi!", the professor actually RAN AWAY SCARED.
I was a terminal nerd at the time, but meeting an intelligent guy in his '50s who was less well adjusted to the world than most students, scared the hell out of me. It was like being visited by the ghost of Christmas future.
I'm still rather antisocial, but after watching a possible future played out so vividly, I started to take acquiring social skills a lot more seriously.
hair looking like you just crawled out of bed is in.. for now
This is so true, ...
Many people get freaked out when they hear some disorder term and get labeled if they match 'part of' the criteria.
Please, this is stupid. Acting like doctor with his PhD... Only a trained psych* has the skills and ability to identify a disorder.
...I am by no means advocating underage drinking, but I was in a similar (but probably less severe) situation in my preteens. By the time I hit thirteen, I was in real danger of under-developing my social skills. It's a "good" thing that I got invited to a couple of parties due to a cousin's good graces, and the alcohol certainly helped me loosen up and lose some inhibitions. That said, I would not recommend it unless the "child" has a modicum of self-control.
Cant find my nick's password. a_writer - name's Frank.
I find your response rather inadequate. Kids that find it impossible to explain a game to other kids need urgent counselling. They are the ones who need treatment, not kids with so-called Asperger's syndrome.
... ask him to think about the people around him. How they react to certain things, what they like doing and why.
I learnt a lot, just by watching others and thinking about them. It's good to talk about it with a close friend, too. These two can get you really up to speed on social skills, I think.
Cheers.
If you suspect Asperger, read the tips on the online support groups and if they look obvious ... you probably dont have it. Some of the tips might even give you an insight if you have just some mild traits.
And I think that is the benefit of categorizing these various conditions. Once they are given a label, then it makes for a way to organize treatment. A consequence of this is that people who show similar signs but do not completely fit the label may also learn something from the recommended treatements.
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before, but hopefully I'm summarising it. The best way to gain social skills is to join a non-competitive club or society. Colleges tend to be littered with them (at least in Ireland).
Non-competitive clubs that are handy would be
As far as societies go, you could get involved in war-gaming or debating. However these clubs traditionally tend to be populated by people similar to your student so they're not quite as good for building general social skills, though he'll find it easier to make friends in these kind of circles. Also these places lack girls, and girls tend to be a great incentive to get yourself together (I just started moisturising the other day - hey, Norwegian fisherman have been doing it for hundreds of years!)
Best thing, have him try 'em all out. It's worth noting that most of these are very cerebral - martial arts and rockclimbing are all about analysing situations, thinking ahead, evaluating outcomes and making decisions. Ditto for war-gaming and debating. Treking isn't as much so, but if you keep it up you can start leading groups and doing navigation, which is also a challenge, and frankly the things you can see once you leave the the rest of the world are stunning.
I was in a similiar boat when I was younger. I would get mad and frustrated, and started punching walls. After breaking all of my fingers at least once, and several up to 6 times, I took up weight lifting as a hobby. Nothing very formal, just some free weights in the garage and basement. This allowed me to vent frustration without hurting myself. I was able to lift without thinking or concentrating too much, so I was still able to think about whatever was on my mind. I could watch TV, or even study, if I was just using dumbells. After some time, actually not very much time, I started to notice a BIG difference. I was in great shape, I went from being a stick skinny kid to a well defined, and even muscular guy. I continued working out, and was very happy with the results. About a year after I started, on of the bully jocks decided to take a book from me on the recess yard. I ended up grabbing him, lifting him off the ground, and twisted his arm behind his back until he cried. I wasn't aiming for tears, but the look on his face when he realized he WAS NOT going to overpower his way out of my grasp was truly priceless. He never screwed with me again, and we actually became somewhat friendly after that. I never became a bully, but the confidence I gained after that, carried me through college and beyond. I don't work out as often as I used to, but can still bench press over 200lbs, have 26-28 in biceps, and a 54 in chest. I also discovered that the ladies started to notice me in a much more favorable light after I started working out. So if I forgot to comb my hair now and then, it didn't really matter too much. Once I got some pride and confidence in my appearance, and most importantly, some control over it, all the other pieces fell into line. Hope this helps some. By the way, you are doing a great thing by mentoring. I have been volunteering as a Boy Scout leader for almost 9 years now, without a son in it, and the joy and sense of satisfaction in helping develop kids is truly the greatest reward.
Liberalism...the next best thing to thinking.
Builds adaptive, cooperative, human interface skills in real time! (And is a great way to meet chicks ... or guys ... or both ... whatever). It is not possible to look like a misanthropic geek if one has successfully mastered the basics of successfully aligning your body movements to Latin rhythms. (The trick, of course, is zenning that rhythm thing -- but thus the lessons if you need an extra boost there.)
;)
:)
If that fails, join a rock band. If you can learn to work with "artists", you can then work with _anyone_ (and having unkempt hair can be an asset under the correct circumstances). However, contrary to popular belief, this is probably not a good way to meet members of the opposite sex, or anyone else you might wish to form a non-professional relationship with
At the very least, throw away all those computer games so that you're forced to find something else to do with your apparently (possibly?) copious free time
Cheers,
Carl
slap a label on the poor kid, thats the solution. put him in a box and call him disorder Y or construct Z, trust me, it will make him feel muuuch better.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Karate can be helpful, but not for everyone. I am currently in the same situation, however, I am lucky enough to go to a large school where I can literally become invisible to avoid teasing/bullying. I haven't been picked on since middle school. The only classes I'm really comfortable in are my technology classes (and I'm a girl - it's hard to fit here too!), so I've made my extracurricular fit me. My high school has a FIRST robotics team. It's great - everyone works super hard to uild and design a robot in 6 weeks, then we get to go to Regionals and some people get to go to Nationals! For someone who may be uninterested in sports or other activities, this could allow him to be with other people that share his interests. The competitions are great! It's like a rock concert, literally, with out the drinking and fights and for geeks. Even if he's not so interested in robots, as I am not (but am more interested now after 2 years), there are other things you can do. The robot is programmed in C and there's a seperate smaller competition for a 3D animation built with 3D Studio Max. I have to say, this is the best experience of high school so far. I don't quite fit at school yet, but I've made friends that might pick on me for being nerdy, but I can pick on them back :-P
See if there's a local GATE chapter. When I was in it as a kid, they did outings to different places, like the Exploratorium in San Francisc, the Bay Model in Sausalito, and quite a few other education/science oriented outings/classes. Here's the California Branch. I couldn't find an official national page, maybe I'm not that gifted anymore :-(
It's All Politics
It's "losing", not "loosing".
"Losing you mind" is going insane. "Loosing you mind" is pulling you brain out of your skull through your nose with a large rusty hook.
Where did this bizarre confusion come from anyway? I'm sure that these words were not confused with such regularity a year ago.
Introduce them to escorts. Did wonders for me in college! :)
two words... Geek Alliance. he/ she would be more likely to relate with people who share their own interests, no?
although he did get the chick in the end ... oh well
Have him join a professional fraternity. Most pro frats have social events. The difference between IQ and EQ isn't a graphics engine. It's a concerted effort to interact and carry on conversations with other people. Continuous practice of being around others is a good way to progress socially.
Apart from the fact that Mark Haddon has no particular knowledge of Aspergers, I'm sure it's a good book.
A better book is "Martian in the Playground" by Clare Sainsbury. Written by someone diagnosed with AS.
We were all made fun of at some point. Everybody, every last person amongst us. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it IS funny for your differences to be pointed out. Maybe the mentor is scared this kid will wind up going Columbine at school? If he has asked his mentor to help him fit in and be cool, there is no dstinct formula, but there are steps that can be taken. Cleanliness, combed hair, neat clothes, all of these are pretty much universally accepted. Maybe the mentor was a tormented youth who is trying to save his study from the pains he experienced? Life is to be lived. Every experience works to make you into who you will be. In high school I was a total introvert and ubergeek. I say let him grow up some before he has to worry about who he is. Now I'm a friendly, outgoing building remodeling specialist who knows more about technology than anybody else in the shop. I have an excellent social life and am very successfull with women. Everything changes after highschool. It doesn't matter who was cool and who wasn't there after everybody gets out. Especially after you're done with college and enter the real world, it's all about seeing yourself starting the career you'll retire from while those who made fun of you have a fat girl pregnant and are still working at the mall. So the best thing to do in this case is nothing, I think.
It's a perfect time for being wasted.
A perfect time to watch the stars.
- Burden Brothers, "Beautiful Night"
I mean that seriously, women force men to be much more social.
http://us.mensa.org
This kid needs stimulation from the conversation otherwise he'll get bored and not bother interacting with anyone.
If you put him with other children in the same position, with similar IQs and encourage them to talk to each other using games and projects you'll help all of them to improve.
MENSA may be able to help you with this, they know a lot about gifted children and how to help them in the best way possible.
You are right it is a crass question. And, not insightful.
This kid needs confidence in his social skills. That usually takes a lot of time. I was lucky that I found a shortcut. Unfortunately, I can't recommend it because it's neither legal nor was that its purpose, but it just worked out that way.
The best thing would be to somehow get him into a situation where he's forced to deal with people, preferably adults, on a daily basis. The reason I say "preferably adults," is that they are less likely to make fun of him and more likely to appreciate his smarts. That should provide confidence in dealing with his peers. An after school job doing something that involves dealing with customers is best. Doesn't matter if it's waiter at a restaurant or working in sales, or whatever.
This kid's social skills right now, are far more important than his ability in any science. If he's got the gift, he'll learn all he needs to know about that. What he won't learn easily without a lot of help, is social skills. That should be the main focus for him right now. Believe me, the earlier this is changed, the better off he'll be for the rest of his life.
Also address issues such as how he dresses, how he does his hair. Anything that might be standing in his way. Help him to look, if not cool, at least "not geeky." A good start would be to do a search on google for "geek dating tips" and start from there. Not that you're getting the guy a date, but a lot of the advice he'll find applies to many aspects of social life, and let's face it, this is one of the more important ones.
I didn't say how I conquered my social failings/lack of confidence, but suffice it to say that it changed in my junior year of high school and it changed my life in a major way. Shortly after the "experience", I went from total geek to dating one of the cutest cheerleaders in school. I quickly became comfortable dealing with people in social settings.
If you can give this kid the confidence he needs dealing with people socially, it will change his life in profound ways and he will thank you for it.
I remember on one project, I was so pissed off that someone had given us something completely stupid, and practically impossible to do. Mark knew exactly how to handle it -- he told me that they were expecting me to fail, and that I should do it just to prove them wrong. He knew exactly how to turn my anti-social tendancies into a benefit, not a handicap. [and I turned my part of the project in on time... too bad the contractor never did, and walked with over 50% of the hardware, and never produced any of the software, that he was supposedly 'working on in [his] test lab'.]
In a small company, yes, everyone will probably have to do a little bit of customer relations. In a large company, with good managment, they will know how to deal with various personality quirks, and how to get the most of each person. [And likewise, if a particular person is worth the trouble]. Unfortunately, Mark got promoted, and I was hung out to dry by a completely 'hands off' manager, and was fired by his boss for pointing out his mistakes repeatedly.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I hope you take this the right way, but the kind of social anxiety you describe is one that a shrink can help you with. If nothing else there are pharmacuticals.
This signiture copied from somewhere.
Things like chess can be one social outlet, and for more sporty stuff there are problem solving oriented outdoor activities like orienteering or climbing.
You need to check out Fast Seduction.
Yeah, it's horrible, flame away, but it works like you wouldn't believe.
Oh, I believe it. Back when these techniques were disseminated in books (egad), I used some of them briefly to enter (or at least visit) the world of non-geekiness.
But while it might "work" in some mechanical sense, so do illegal drugs (or so I hear) "work" at bringing pleasure. Like any mindless pursuit of pleasure (vs. happiness), learning those Fast Seduction style techniques, without actually learning how to love and interact with your fellow human being, is going to bring misery and a pathetic existence in the long run.
The main point the book makes, with relation to kids, is that you need to treat your kid as if he already is the way you would like to see him.
Aikido is an excellent introduction to martial arts, because it's also a good gateway to other styles which may appeal to different personality types.
:)
If I remember correctly, Aikido is a descendant of Judo, which in turn is a descendant of Jiujitsu. As you go up that ladder, the style becomes more aggressive, and less cerebral.
Aikido makes a good starting point for a lot of geeks, especially if you lack whole body coordination. It's almost entirely focused on balance and the conversion of motion, and is a strictly defensive martial art for those who have a pacifistic nature.
Judo is more sporting than Aikido, and a bit more aggressive. Modern Judo styles are often targetted towards one on one competition, and Judo is a well established and highly regarded international sport. If you enjoy competition, Judo is definitely a great opportunity.
Jiujitsu was developed for combat, and continues to be one of the most effective martial arts when it comes to disabling an opponent as quickly as possible, in either a defensive or offensive role. It is not "sporting" or "fair," but it is extraordinarily good at what it was designed to do. It's a brutal martial art to study, but it's an excellent way to discover your limits, both philosophically and physically (and fairly quickly).
Any martial art is an excellent way to get in touch with your body, and puts you in the position to test your personal philosophies. Every dojo I've been to will let you try a couple of classes for free, so there's no real excuse not to try it.
Bodybuilding is an *incredibly* geeky sport. I am a geek/nerd and amateur bodybuilder. It is incredibly scientific, really fun, and something suited for geeks.
Understand: there is an incredibly commraderie in the gym between fellow bodybuilders. They are very eager to help others train and to give tips. We love it when people come up to us and ask us questions on how to get big. Now, some of us want to get huge like Arnold, Ferrigno, Colombu, etc, and others want to just put on some muscle mass. Still, it requires strict attention to your diet, sleep/rest, and training. It's really fun to track your changes, see your body grow, and not to mention the attention from women!
Take him to a gym (and if your at a university, you most likely have an on campus gym thats included in tuition).
Take it for what its worth.
-Vic
Have weekly groups meetings, make him/her present at everyone. No matter how smart someone he/she may be, if she/he cannot communicate they will get a large dose of humility. It can be argued that rocks are infinitely smart, they just have communication issues.
Well, I think it's really impossible to be both intelligent and socially adept.
The problem is not that intelligent people lack social graces. The problem is that being socially accepted depends upon common interests and the ability of people to relate to one another. A person of above average intelligence cannot relate to the common/simple people around them because these people cannot understand the things that interest the intelligent person. As a result, these people seek to oppress the intelligent person making the intelligent ones feel inadequate in order to cover their own inadequacies.
All in all, it's been my experience that it's best to find a way to exploit the common folk around you. Being social with them means playing dumb, acting ignorant, or adopting strange and misguided beliefs. If you can appear to do that, you will relate well. Use that to get a job, or other networking type activities, but NEVER forget that these folk are not as valuable to mankind as you are. Always remember, YOU ARE SUPERIOR. Relate to them in much the same way you relate to a dog, manipulate them to your own ends.
In a word, train the simple folk to serve you. It's their best function, and aside from burger flipping, it is the only contribution to mankind that these folk are capable of making.
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
"slap a label on the poor kid, thats the solution. put him in a box and call him disorder Y or construct Z, trust me, it will make him feel muuuch better."
Uh, if he has a condition that can be diagnosed, sometimes there is a treatment available. Even if there isn't, just 'slapping a label' actually might make him feel better. Ever thought about that?
If the lack of social skills already makes him feel like a freak, it might be a relief to find out there is a rational explanation to it.
See the same subject below.
It would be a shame if that advice wasn't followed. It was posted anonymously, but it is obviosly posted by sombody that has lived it or tried to help someone else that has. Most of the other solutions happend in the later teens, so that doesn't help, or are circumstance specific.
Take him to a LUG or something like that. Or when at your whits end, build yer own. *G*
To the article poster: I'm a UNO student also. When can I meet you at the student center? I'll try to stop by there (second floor, cafeteria) today between about 10:00 and maybe 10:45. (When I'm there I'm usually on the south-most wall, where most of the Japanese exchange students sit. I'm an American currently taking my fourth semester of the language, so every little bit helps. :) )
I had the same problem as a kid. Maybe it's a maturity thing -- maybe the problem will only fix itself after years of experience and maturity. For me that process started in my junior year of high school. Prior to that...well, I honestly didn't mean to be this way, but apparently I was a real asshole, seeming to try to make everybody know I was smarter than them, or something. Then suddenly it clicked in my junior hear of HS: "normal people" have social lives and a variety of experiences and whatnot, so I need to *look up to them* for what they have.
They say a person who refuses praise, seeks praise twice. But that was me also: if someone said something in admiration of my computer skills, I would say I would gladly give those skills back in exchange for a more normal life and more social interaction, etc. I felt that I was playing at deliberately hiding my talent from people -- when I did something that revealed my skill I didn't brag about it or do it proudly, I pretended to be ashamed of my weird skill, like I was some kind of mutant. I still thought I was pretty hot shit, especially compared to other computer people (hey Eric Duprey, Russ Kroll and the guys from 8, 9 years ago...sorry guys for how I was acting back then. I would have hated me too...and it's a damn shame I drove you guys away, because I had a lot to learn from you all.) -- but I just tried to hide it, or at least make it look like I was trying to hide it.
I imagine that direction won't work for the kid if he doesn't actually value those things other people has that he doesn't. But it might be someplace to start with him, eventually.
--Michael Spencer
to make people think I'm smart.
It does work and this is not a joke or troll.
A blog I run for the wealth
Working as a bus-boy in a fancy restaurant will teach him a lot of very useful bullshit and put some money in his pocket.
Need I say any more...
Actually I'd say he needs a girlfriend ... or at least a crush ... that was how I reformed my ways ...
... but sophomore year of high school I was an overweight nerd who wanted to impress I a girl ... so I suddenly for the first, became concerned with my appearance ...
... but then ... if he really doesn't care about girls either .. he's best sticking to computers :)
I'm a junior in college and have had several girlfriends since that time
sounds like he could use the same
Real Boys and Primal Teen are two books I'd recommend reading. They discuss the psychology of adolescent males and would probably be of great benefit to helping out a gifted, but socially-challenged, youth.
Cars. People might scoff, but 'car culture' is very similar to 'computer culture' (Think about it, some people are all about making their machine more powerful, some are into looks, some enjoy mechanical work, etc.), so the switch would be relatively easy.
With cars, you can learn a useful skill, have the potential for a whole new social group as well as have a good topic to talk about with your typical 'average Joe' American guy. Anyways, it's a fun, and very practical, hobby to think about as an alternative to sports.
Sounds like he needs to be on Queer Eye for the Geek Guy
I, like half of the posters on this website, was in the same position as this kid. I'm going to guess that the kid hass most (or all) of the following characteristics:
He expects to go to a "good" college.
His peers are mainly from his own socioeconomic bracket.
He mostly interacts with other "smart" children.
I believe that my parents compounded my social problems by telling me that the kids who made fun of me were stupid or jealous, or my problems would go away when I went to college, etc. They taught me to have a superiority complex. In turn, that meant that even as I learned "normal" social skills, I came off as a real asshole who assumed I knew more than everyone about everything. This was especially true when I dealt with people who either weren't "smart", or didn't come from a place of privilege, so their "smarts" didn't look like mine.
Get him to realize that looking smart isn't always important - make him realize that BEING smart isn't always important. If he's the type that raises his hand every time he knows the answer to the teacher's question, get him to value not taking up more than his share of time in a classroom setting. Get him to practice not "showing off" when he gives his answer. Give him a chance to meet people who are smart who aren't like him. The less he tries to make himself seem better than others, the less folks will treat him as different. Don't let him build his self-esteem around being smart - there will always be smarter folks, and it counts for less than he thinks in the "real" world.
Re-reading this, I hope I'm not misinterpreted to be saying, "Tell him to act dumb." I want to emphasize that you can be smart without (unintentionally) being a prick about it.
Finally, get him to practice thinking before he opens his mouth EVERY time he opens his mouth. This is HUGE. He'll seem far less like a jerk if, before he says something, he considers how interested his audience is in hearing it, and how to say it in the fewest words possible.
Take him to a kegger!!! I barely left my room before I went to house parties. Now I can't get enough of them. I just pick out a nice spot and chill there and talk to people. It's nice.
Who is that masked man?
no one feels under the weather for a time, they have chronic fatigue syndrome
These disorders are real. It's not about feeling 'under the weather for a time', it's about feeling under the weather all the time. Implying these are just excuses and imaginings is insulting to those that suffer from such disorders.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
I, an accomplished geek myself, never was socially active until college, where I found people that were on my level intelligence-wise and social wise. We have all gotten together and formed our own little club. He doesn't need to be cool or socially accepted. He needs to accept himself and be happy with who he is. He will just start naturally having a social life. People will notice his confidence. You don't have to be popular to be successful by any means. The most successful people I know are not popular at all.
What's the school like? What's the area you live in like? What is the major industry? What are some good programs at school and in the community? How is this kid built? Does he look like he could take someone?
I was fortunate enough to a school district that was small enough so that social groups couldn't reach 'critical mass' to create destructive situations for their peer groups. (Those who could bully weren't numerous enough to get away with tyranny over everyone else.) Also, the gifted/advanced placement programs started in 3rd grade and went through to graduation. Finally, the music and art programs were award winning and excellent, with many ways to express yourself. And it helped that I looked like I could take pretty much anybody.
Here's some tips: Talk to the kid; let him know he's different from his peers (but not better). Go in depth into the psychology of adolescents. They're not mocking him because he's wrong, but because he's not one of them. Let him find a group (in school, preferably) where he can fit in. Mine was the instrumental program. Also, put him in a leadership role. This is the best way to create social skills. Just make sure that he doesn't become a dictator.
And, finally, let him on Slashdot. Show him he's not alone in tackling problems that a lot of intelligent kids have to deal with growing up. Feeling like you're on your own is the worst thing that can happen to him.
I say "him" because I have yet to encounter a girl who has had similar issues. They're probably out there, but in such a small minority that my chances are good that I don't have to worry about being wrong in my assumption that the kid's a male.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
i wanna see this situation put on reality tv. ...geek kid is taught social skills and is put in the "real world" to test em out.
Hi all,
I had a number of Asbergers symptoms all my youth, but for me I found a strange way out.
When I was about 25 I had a very bad phase and made the mistake to start drugs, mainly extasy and amphetamines. While it was a generally bad idea which lead to a lot of personal and financial problems the drugs influence helped me to understand people and social behaviour.
I stopped using drugs after about 3 years. A year later I met my wife, 2 years later we married and have two kids now. Out circle of friends is rapidly expanding by now, most of them introduced by me.
I know this was a strange and dangerous way, I don't know why it worked for me and I wouldn't recommend trying. But for me it worked.
Warning: Even though I gained a lot of social skills, I lost some of my ability to concentrate - not so much to do harm, but anyway.
The trick is to connect them with other gifted kids and adults. The benefits are two-fold. One is that they get social interaction with people that dont' scratch their heads wondering what they're talking about. The other is that being around gifted adults gives them role models of what to do (and more importantly, what NOT to do) with their abilities.
Enjoying a team game has nothing to do with you IQ.
If all the other guys are treating you badly than you should either join another team and ask yourself if you might be responsible for their behaviour too. Social interactions are often as hard to master as chess, both need training and reflection.
In my university the majority of the really smart ones that can do derivations on the blackboard, which remind you of Feinman, are working together in larger groups to discuss their research problems and to have fun, some even play soccer.
I feel sorry for you that you can't enjoy teams at all.
In the end you are jugding about people only because of their IQ. Such easy one-criteria-fits-all arguments are often used by people, who don't have the ability to think clearly and honestly.
The student has learned all manners of rules and systems - they should be able to wrap their mind around another. Etiquitte or other forms of social conduct code can be quite exciting. Asiastic codes of conduct, such as those of the samuari or Tai Chi player (see Chen Man'Ching, Ben Lo or Jou Tsung Hwa) can teach important social fundaments while exciting the student's learning faculty - and building the physical body.
Even if the Asiatic martial-social coupling is not for them, there are other indigenous forms, as well as those of the 'desert peoples' and medieval codes of conduct.
Perhaps they need a good healthy dose of mythology, which teaches many of these lessons through stories.
-shpoffo
They must be isolated from general society, and their brain power used for the good of the system.
We cant have smart children running aronud figuring tings out. That could be a threat to the status quo.
And if they are REALLY smart, then call the centre and let them train them properly..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
But beware. There is a disorder preventing some people from properly reading other's expressions, which can lead to misunderstanding, confusion and isolation.
Good. luck.
get them away from all that crappy asian anime and all the other asian crap that supposedly "gifted" people dabble in (ie nerds). Force them to join sports teams and participate in NORMAL community events. Tell the kid you still expect them to get all the good grades, but they will lift weights, play football, hang out and have fun. they will not be allowed to stay in doors and associate with only other social misfits.
I'm inclined to agree with this. The other posters do have valid points, in that if you walk up to a psychologist and tell him that this person has Asperger's syndrome, he'll probably think the kid is way worse off than he really is, but that's the point of adjectives like "mild". Some syndromes are really just regular personality traits taken to an (unhealthy?) extreme. If someone has that trait, what else are you going to call it?
I have "mild" ADD. It's not serious enough to regularly affect my daily work, but it's there. Most people don't notice. But it is a trait of mine, and that's what it's called.
Want any cobat sport? Forget about karate, TKD or other bullshit. Try Boxing, Judo, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. Those are really hard and can make one feel a lot more self-confident.
Do lots of social activity. Go to your church, join a political party, go to carity and help the poor, go to an hospital to do social work, join any fan club of... whatever. You see, there are pletny of options. Stop winning and do it now!
I have a son in this situation. In addition to exposing him to social situations through scouts and basketball (he's 9), I engage his analytical skills, which he bases a good part of his self-worth on. I ask him to analyze the situation so that he can understand the rules, play by them and "win" by using them. He WANTS to be smart, so make understanding social considerations part of being smart, and the rest follows. Good luck!
Some of the things that have helped me deal with this:
Deborah Tannen: "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation"
Second thing is to realize that there are other interesting things in the world than JUST what you're interested in... And since you (eventually) need to talk to other people anyway, why not get them to talk about what they're interested in and find some aspect in it you can appreciate.
It's hard to get people to shut up about things they're interested in, so (1) it helps make you a good listener, and (2) helps you to recognise the need to shut up in your own life.
You need to read about things other than what you like, just so you can talk intelligently about topics others are interested in.
I spent 9 solid months in grad school learning how to do these things because I had no life, no friends outside my specialization, and no dating skills whatsoever.
It may start out as an intellectual exercise, but it gets internalized eventually and becomes easier.
One of the hardest and most rewarding things she has had to deal with is the oddity of these kids. Some seem perfectly normal, some are social misfits. Some have meltdowns once a week. Yes, she works with the less social students to improve their social skills, but if she only concentrated on that it would be the only thing she could do. Instead, she teaches all the kids how to deal with those that are different from them.
One student was fidgeting a lot in his seat, and kept getting out of his chair when called on. At first she kept telling him to sit back down, but that agitated him more. Finally she realized that he could think better if he could stand up and walk around when he talked. She asked him if it would make him more comfortable, and he said it would. He started doing immensely better in class. She didn't care, the other students didn't care. The students there are used to things like that.
She deals with all kinds of situations and students that those of us that went to "normal" schools would consider weird. But those kids are smart. So they do things a little differently. So they don't remember to comb their hair. Should they be reprimanded, or should we be a little more tolerant? Personally, I hope nobody else is crammed into this social box, it is getting too crowded anyway.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
As a nerd I learned a lot about everything. But at the cost of social skills and effective communications of my ideas to the dumb ass's who you have to explain your complex ideals to.
But as I got older I found I was able to talk to pretty much anyone in a wide range of fields and know as much as they did. I find acceptance in most groups because I am knowledgeable about what interests that particular group. I found a wide range of people with a wide range of interests accepted me, socially. I believe I live a much richer life as a result. At the start of the day I may talk about Krispy Kream doughnuts and end by the end I might be talking about advanced physics.
I'm late to this posting, but I hope the poster sees this anyway.
1) Get him a copy of the book "People Skills"
2) Learn to play a musical instrument. Piano is great for a zillion social situations.
3) Take that instrument and join the concert band/wind ensemble in your high school. You will be with other misfortunate geeks, but you will learn to socialize with them.
4) Weight Train. I'm not suggesting that you try to be an Arnold, but if you weight train a little bit, you will bust out of the two 'geek stereotypes (skinny as a rail, or fat 'comic book guy'. A little bit of muscle on your arms helps bust the geek image.
5) Join a Toastmasters group. I recently did this, and think it is a great way to learn public speaking/interaction, etc. The meeting structure will be facinating for a geek, and the amount of time spent critiquing each other will make him self-aware, so he will start considering his appearance.
All that, and buy the kid a hooker. Once he 'cleans his pipes', he will be able to concentrate.
Find a student who is either bright, but hasn't had the opportunity to learn or has a learning disability (e.g.: dyslexia), or is mentally defficient, but eager, and have your student tutor him (or her).
The latter case may be too frustrating, but I find that a lot of intelligent people will go out of their way to make allowance for someone who tries hard, but can't quite get it.
The worst choice is probably an average, uninterested person: all the frustration without the joy.
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
I doubt I'm the only geek who thought adolescence sucked. It was like hell.
High school always seemed like a place full of some superficial, pretentious people, various jocks, cheerleaders and student body presidents, the good-looking, and a huge, silent crowd. With only a few acquaintances, most school days I'd never even exercise my vocal cords. As the refrain goes from Psycho Killer, "When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed."
There's enough mental challenge already for most geeks willing to seek it. Computers, chess, reading great literature, philosophy, mathematics. Often, getting access to those resources compounded my social isolation. As a high school junior I was interrupting my school day to take sophomore college calculus where everyone was a lot older than I. And, really, how many other students at my high school would be interested in Martin Heidegger and phenomenology?
But geeks really do need to develop some social skills for their long-term mental and emotional well-being, and this is where most geeks are ill-prepared to self-instruct. Emotions and social interactions aren't always that logical.
The only way to learn is by doing.
Nothing's foolproof, and every person is different, but here's a couple of possible suggestions.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
You need to give this kid a makeover. Inside, possibly rather deep inside, this kid knows how to dress himself, he knows how to comb his hair, but he's scared to do anything that might make it look like he cares what other people think. So, if you're gonna do it, you have to do it right the first time, and you have to use a method he can relate to. THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD!
Systematically find the problems that prevent him from feeling like he looks good and solve them. This will give him confidence. Someone mentioned Karate, and whether it's that or something else, martial arts are a great idea, not only for confidence building and defense, but physical excercise is really good for things like attention span and energy level.
Find $500 or so, take the kid to a good clothing store, find a salesperson with good taste, and let them loose. Then bring him over to a trendy hairstylist and let them do their thing. Explain to the kid that like him with computers, they're experts in their fields, and can help him the way he helps his mom find the "any" key.
The kids at school or wherever may be pretty shocked at first, but it seems to me that kind of shock usually blew over after about a week.
Sociable eye for the timid geek?
We had no-cut cross country and track at my school, and one thing I noticed was that distance running was the sport with the fewest dumb jocks, and the most brainy types, about 1/3 of our state championship quiz bowl team was on cross country as well.
Running is a great way to eliminate stress too, which can be a huge problem for many of us nerds...
Another good option is weight lifting. Almost everyone shows substantial progress within a couple weeks of starting, and that is a great confidance boost. Once you have been going to the gym at the same time for a while, people will start interacting with you in a totally non-acedemic way. People who, when in school, fear and resent your intelegence either don't know that you are smart, or, if they realize it, don't care because you are pumping iron, and you are one of them while you are there.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Multiplayer RPGs:
This will have good and bad aspects. If the kid is as smart as you say, I'm fairly certain he'll know the difference and gain from it.
Whether these are played live, online or in LAN parties, there is some aspect of social interaction. The online versions are a good first step. Talking to someone annonymously is very safe, and he can leave whenever he wants. LAN parties take it to the next step. There is live interaction as well as the on-screen kind. Live, pencil and paper RPGs take it a third step. Not only roleplaying interaction and direct interaction with the players, but there's an open social/party atmosphere as well.
Academic events:
UIL competitions, Academic Decathlon, or any live competitions where academics is the core event. During study groups, typical talking and humor breaks out. At the events, after the tests, it devolves to a party.
Toastmasters:
This is an international, non-profit organization (http://www.toastmasters.org) that focuses on communication, leadership skills, and a variety of other professional and social interaction skills. Local TM clubs are usually only for adults, but often there are youth clubs for high school age or younger.
Exposure:
If this kid is at all like I was, he has a huge vocabulary, but is afraid to use it. He can solve complex problems, but gets strange looks when he does. He knows solutions to problems, but is afraid to speak up because he'll be called brainiac or worse.
A part-time job (if this is possible due to his age) in a white-collar enfironment would be good exposure, especially if it is related to something he likes to do. If he's a math wiz, let him find out how a bank or accounting firm works. If he's a science nut, let him work for a local lab, hospital, pharmacy, engineering firm, computer shop, or telecomm company.
Main thing is that he'll be around adults, most of whom (generally) don't care about looks or how old he is. All they'll see is results of his work. Very likely he has the IQ of a 40-50 year old; he should be communicating with that age group when possible. Both he and they will benefit.
Style:
Kids will make fun of anyone who is different from the majority clique. Let him know this and get him to understand it. Show him it doesn't matter by matching his style one day. Suggest little things to change such as hairstyle, shirts or shoes. Take him shopping. Interacting with a salesperson or watching people in the mall are good chances for building social skills.
I started wearing glasses at age 5. The ridicule started. It finally slowed a bit around age 11, but then I got contacts, and the ridicule started up again because I didn't have my glasses. It's a no win situation for nerds regardless of what we do. Only when we find our niche and can grow our skills are we comfortable with everything else around us.
Above all else, give him confidence and let him know there is nothing wrong with him. He's actually special, and one day he'll very likely make a difference.
My son, age 9, is also struggling with this. He has yet to get to the "cocky" stage about his intelligence, but knows that he's different from the other kids. Case in point, he just quit his school's astronomy club because only a handful of kids are interested in the information - the rest of them act up and wreak havoc in the library where they meet. I think he'll work his way through the social stuff. Like the rest of us, he'll find his niche as soon as high school is over and real life begins. My main concern is that he seems to be walking around in a daze most of the time. I know that his "daze" is all the data he's most interested in running through his head and taking priority over everything else that's happening at the moment (homework, math quizzes, remembering to zip up your pants and flush the toilet!). But the pediatrician is recommending medication to help clear his head and enable him to focus. Anyone else have experience with meds to help with social situations?
Growing up I was always in the "smart" classes. I really didn't trust anybody due to the mocking nature many of my "peers" did to me based on going to the gifted school every Friday.
It only became worse when I left elementary school and entered middle and high school. The other factor for me was that I was dirt poor.
I had very few friends, and they are what I consider true friends. No matter what, they will stick by my side. These are the guys and girls that don't care about apperances.
Now I'm an IT professional, in school for audio engineering. Trying to make my life happier doing something that I really enjoy. I've had some road blocks fitting in with my peers, but it has gotten much better since those early days growing up.
I really attribute me getting to know people better and opening myself up to partying. If it weren't for electronic music in dirty ass ware houses in the early 90s I probably would still be a social invert. If it weren't for trying certain chemicals I wouldn't have the guts to talk to girls I liked.
I've never made any changes about my outward apperance. I really don't think how you dress, comb your hair or tattoo/pierce into your body. Everybody is different and people will like you, or hate you, depending on your choices.
Is really caring what people think about how you comb your hair really all that important? Hell I haven't brushed or combed my hair in three years almost. Granted I have dread locks now, but that's not the point. Even before I decided to dread my hair I just let the pillow do my hair styling for me.
If you carry yourself well then you won't have many problems. Learning to do that can be difficult and everybody is different in that aspect. For me it took raves, it took illegal parties and drugs. I wouldn't change how I got here for anything in the world.
-maz
<happiness>beer</happiness>
If you're near water, try finding a rowing club. yeah. rowing.
it's an incredibly easy sport for someone to pick up even with very little coordination, and it is one of the few sports that will help him get into a top level college.
It's not a label. For people who live in the Asperger's world (me included) where rules are kings and social graces are hard, learning that one is *not* a freak is the best comfort of all. When you find out "Yeah, that's exactly how I feel/think/live/love", realize that even though it's not common, it's not un-common either, and gives you the first steps towards doing something about it.
Think of it this way, knowing provides a base to understand. And as anyone with Aspergers knows, if someone suggests that's the problem, the next week or so involves serious study of it (Google is your friend!). And a new understanding. "Aspie's" generally live in a world of almost vertical learning-curves which they can deal with profoundly well, but someone's gotta point out the learning-curve on occasion.
I can't speak for the USA, but in Britain nearly every village and town has at least one drama group and they are usually pretty welcoming to outsiders. And, here's a tip for male nerds, memberships are usually 75% female.
But I can't act! You say. Well, maybe you could learn to. Or maybe you could put geek skills to use backstage, running the prompt book, creating special lighting effects, or building scenery.
Try it.
There are certain neurological disorders that lead extremely intelligent people to have a very weak attention to self. This leads to all sorts of poor social skills as the afflicted individual is too busy focusing on things other than him or herself. In the case of ADD medications and training can be a huge help, but Asberger's cases are somewhat hopeless, leading to individuals like Bill Gates, who has billions of dollars, a crappy hairdo, and a suit that looks like it should be on a shoe salesman.
Get him out to an SCA event and get him drunk. Extra points if you can get him in armor and let him wail on some folks. Then get him laid by an SCA chick with big boobs. Yeah, he'll still be a geek but he'll feel good and, at the same time, be slightly sickened by it all. Will make his classroom peers seem a much better choice.
I drank what? -- Socrates
There's the excuse I was waiting for. It's not that I lacked social skills in high school, it was merely that I was so focused on learning 6502 assembly language, and C and Pascal programming, that I didn't have enough time for any of that nasty socializing stuff in High School. And I really *liked* it when a beautiful, kind and approachable girl *tried* to talk to me, but I was too awkward to return the attention in a friendly way, and so she gave up, and walked away. If only she was smart enough to be worth talking to, then I wouldn't have had to freeze up like that. Sigh.
... I don't know what planet the previous poster was from, but in my world, it sucks to be lonely.
Franciscan.
It takes an effort to look at peoples faces when I talk to them. I get no useful feedback and my gaze wants to wander. I know from reading articles and watching TV that face communication is important, but it means nothing to me.
the alleged "hardness" or "softness" of Aikido really depends on where you are studying it. I study with the Western Division of USAF and they tend not to "dance you around" and throw you as much as the Eastern Division does. They just get down to the arm twisting and elbow locking as soon as possible. In fact, it really hurts. The current head of Western Divsion (who studied under the founder) is a bit more of a hard ass than some, and to a good end.
I have found, with varying success, that by explaining the need for social skills, combed hair, etc as a necessary, if annoying, means to an end folks that might not otherwise "get it" sometimes do finally understand. Allowing oneself to mingle in public having not showered in two days, and with no deoderant, is just as effective as locking your PC in a heat-retaining, dusty box. The stinky human won't get other humans to help him accomplish his goals, just as the computer wont be as able to help him accomplish his goals. From the other direction, the geek cheerfully installs all sorts of liquid cooling tech to help his pc perform optimally and, applying the same logic, he needs to use right guard and visit the barber shop monthly to optimize his performance in the swill of shallow humanity. Of course its all easier said than done, but once the paradigm is set in place, in my limited experience, it becomes easier for the geek to start figuring out this phenom him/herself and appreciate the myriad reason(s) they have to lower themselves to the cosmetic superficiality that is most of the populace.
This show deals with the stress of being a gifted child. Also with a highly dysfunctional family. Unlike most geeks, Malcolm has a fair amount of social intelligence.
Give him a copy of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, tell him there are others out there like him, and stand back and watch. The social skills come with time, the hard part is just realizing that you're not the only one who's too intelligent for his own good and would rather be reading or doing physics problems than talking about the latest about Britney.
I know that's what did it for me, just getting tossed into a situation where the people, for the first time, were all like me! And it was the Hitchhiker's Guide that allowed me to make that connection.
Get the kids on to college ASAP (If they aren't to high school yet, U. of Nebraska-Lincoln has an independent study program.) Junior high etc can make such problems worse; college can help. But at any rate, Slashdot commentation can only be useful -- the karma system enforces only slightly deviant mores.
First of all, what gives you the right to "change" him?
As a girl geek, I had a much harder time in school. Not only did I get picked on by the kids there, but when I went home I always got crap from my mother (an extrovert) about why I didn't want to go shopping or discuss soap operas. I was more interested in burying my nose in a scifi/fantasy novel, playing Final Fantasy, or drawing.
And I'm *happy* the way I am. Especially since I found a wonderful guy who shares the same interests. If I had given up on my various hobbies to adopt a more "normal" girl life, I never would have found him.
Anywho, don't worry about the kid. He'll eventually figure out exactly what skills he needs to suceed in whatever he wishes to do.
So I fall into the above category; not brilliant by anyones stretch of the imagination, but my first brother/sister was a Tandy TRS-80. Being a latch-key kid; I learned all about the stuff you'd cry if you knew your kid was doing. I'm lucky to be alive and (relatively) unscarred.
I got my ass kicked at school & would burst into tears when the pack would descend upon me. A few years of TKD changed all that when I started a new school vowing to "fight back" no matter what happened.
Sure the pattern started again from the first day, however things were different this time. I walked right up to the bully that was spreading the rumor that he wanted to fight me & said "when would you like to schedule this fight? Big or little lunch (our two breaks in Australia 1/2 & 1 hour respectively. Being the big man on campus he opted to get my ass kicking out of the way as soon as possible.
I remember that morning so well, 11:00am the bell rings (after my whole english class told me I was in for an ass kicking big time from Vincent the crazy). Always one to warm up (in those days) I locked myself in a cubicle and warmed up for 15 min while practically the whole school crammed themselves in the toilets taunting me (thinking I was a coward).
A few mins later I was walking out on the oval & 400 kids were all over the place. I handed my silver neck-chain to some good looking german blonde, saying; "I'll get this back from you in a sec." (For someone so socially challenged - you have to agree I had the lines even back then!)
Anyhow, Mr Ugly was getting hyped up with his shirt off while his gang supported him. He asked me, "are you ready?" and I nodded yes. He came one step forward with his guard up, I took one step back. Again another step forward, again I moved back out of his range. This continued for seventy metres while the school watched in disbelief.
Then Vincent made his move; weapon of choice - the rugby tackle, unfortunately he was stopped short by my side kick which folded him in half like a piece of paper. Seeing his head crying out for a headlock I caught him falling forward & fell back with him onto the ground.
Here I am sitting on my ass; totally owning this idiot (who clearly doesn't want to be choked out) and looking up at the girl who was holding my chain. I held him for a minute (I remember him squeeking when I put the pressure on!) and then said, "Are you finished?" he said "Yes very quietly"; although this might have had something to do with the pound or so of pressure on his windpipe & corotoid sinus.
I let him go & he through an uppercut from the ground (that was purely for the crowd; I was in no danger whatsoever) & retrived my chain.
The outcome; Vincent was expelled that day (I later saw him bagging groceries saying "I remember you" - he was very friendly towards me!) and I ended up going out with that blonde for the remainder of my time there.
How you say: "poped that cheery in style?"
Nobody bothered me after that & I hung with the badasses for the remainder of my time there...
So in summary; being tough is all about knowing how to kick ass. That's all some people understand.
Now I've been doing TKD for something like 18 years & know a little Wing-Chun. Even though girls still make me cry; nobody questions my ass-kicking ability. That's what makes you tough.. as Vin Diesel says; "500."
Love you all,
-Richard
Telling someone that there's something wrong with them because they don't fit into your definition of normal is cruel and ignorant. If someone has trouble fitting in with the jocks and cheerleaders they should be proud, not seek treatment.
Asperger's Syndrome is not a label applied to people who don't fit in. If someone is using it that way, they are wrong. You can have some or all of the symptoms, yet still not have Asperger's.
There was a very good writeup of Asperger's in a Wired article a while ago.
bp
That's what the Paxil ads seem to suggest, anyway.
OK, bio/chem geeks, quiz time.
Know what DNA stands for?
National Dyslexic's Association.
Basically, for total geeks, the easiest way to do it is to read one of the many many books on socialization. The subject has to realize that their social problems are not intrinsic, but simply a result of a lack of skills and improper acquired habits.
Here are two books to get started:
1) How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie
2)"The Complete Book of Etiquette," by Amy Vanderbilt
There are lots of others, but those are a good start.
1.) Find similarly socially retarded people. Plenty of these types will flourish in ultra-geek environments that are exceptionally socially accepting. He'll find a smelly unkept girl to be happy with and smelly unkempt friends to chill with.
2.) Liquor and weed.
Like I said...not joking...dead serious.
HEY MAN! THATS NOT FUNNY.
Oh wait... processing... processing...
forget i said anything.
I hate the uptight dopes around here who make a clumsy, poorly-thought-out attempt at being funny and, being just smart enough to realize it, add in the lame "It's funny, laugh" bit.
NO, it's NOT funny, it's AWFUL, and yet you somehow managed to intimidate some simpletons into modded it up.
I weep for this community and what it's become...
Oh, did I tell you I work in a factory on the line? Debian, in case you were wondering.
I have a nephew who fits your description. Taking acting/drama classes worked wonders for him.
Chicks!
A friend will come and bail you out of jail, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "damn that was fun!"
"Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster."
One thing to beware of- if the kid is really insecure or socially maladjusted, you certainly dont want to make a weapon out of him. I once knew this guy with very few social skills but he was really into martial arts. He wanted to become some sort of weird vigilante and walk the woods in a mask looking for criminals to beat up. *shudders*
What I think is best is just to encourage as much social interaction as possible. Sports (you can be smart AND athletic), clubs, youth groups, and even working.
Music groups are *especially* good for the geeky-they bring the emotional and social into the technical.
...and model himself after Chris Knight (Val Kilmer's character.)
Once you get those basics down, you can start discussing with someone what role the other person puts you in, what expectations they have of someone in a given role.
For example, teachers generally expect students to be one of 3 or 4 roles -- "good student", "troublemaker", "sleeper", "low esteem", etc. So what do they associate with those roles, and are you giving them the right association by what you wear, how you behave, etc.
Similarly, potential dates have expectations of what a boyfriend/girlfriend should be like. If you behave according to their roles, you get along, if not, you don't.
- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
I'm with you there partnet. I worked at McDonalds with my wife/gf for a couple years. I started out on 'grill', and did fine back there. Then we did come cross-training. She said the first time I had to take an order I was white as a sheet.
Man.. It's really pitiful to be that afraid, at 19 years of age, of just taking an order from a stranger.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Unfortunately this is wrong in many cases. The absolutely worst programmers I have met have been very bright people with no social skills. (I realise that really dumb programmers would be even worse, but we usually don't employ those ones in the first place.)
There may be some jobs out there for people who sit in a corner and write excellent code. However, most projects involve several persons, and unless you learn to communicate properly, taking the time to express things so other people understand them and taking the time to try to understand what your less intelligent colleagues actually mean, there is a real risk that your presence is rather damaging to the project.
(And, yes, the best programmers I have met have obviously also been very bright.)
So, I was a gifted student, I have a high IQ, people call me 'genius', blah, blah, blah.
But the fact is, I don't think I was SMART enough as a kid to be able to understand what I understand now to function well socially.
While I'm sure kids like me can learn some rules that will help them get by, and it certainly helps when parents buy reasonable clothing and get their kids decent hair cuts, there are frankly just certain trade-offs in intelligence. Savants take this to the extreme, but in everyone, there is an uneven distribution in the KINDS of intelligence that an individual has, and everyone is different. Some intelligence is social, some is logical, some is kinetic, etc.
So, in my case, there were just certain things that I DID NOT UNDERSTAND as a child. This is in part because I was unwilling to accept certain principles in social interaction, like that when people pick on you, you can laugh and pick back; as long as you don't get UPSET about it, everyone's happy.
There is an alternate theory. I'm now MUCH better socially than my parents. They also insisted in buying the cheapest clothing possible. I was socially inept as a child, but perhaps if my parents had been more clued-in, I would have faired better. I don't know.
As a gifted youth currently, maybe I can contribute something to this. Why not a ham radio license for the kid, it's geeky but will help build social skills, he will learn how to talk with people and will learn about electronics and radio at the same time. Also maybe tell him straight up, one of my friends did and it really did help me, and now I am doing the same with some else. Also teach him to fight not like a man, but a guy who wants to live instead of punching the gut of the bully kick him in the nads, hit him in the neck, kick out his knees, kick him in the stomache, things like that. To get people to leave him alone teach him this one funny line, "I am this *close* to going Columbine on all of you." Explanation- after combination, since I was geek/nerd everyone thought that I was going to go Columbine on everyone so after a few years of dealing with shit like that I took the line from "Pump Up The Volume" when Mark said, "Take shit and fuck a million times", as still a nerd I take this line to heart when I have to deal with the assholes that I have to deal with every day. Yes I have friends, but atleast 75% of the general high school population is just a bunch of fucking assholes. Tell him to grow up some yes, but some people are still assholes so tell him to take the shit and fuck it.
Torvalds is god
Growing up labeled as gifted is tough, but what's worse than having that label is not being challenged. I went through the public school gifted programs and I think that's where a lot of kids hone their lack of social skills. Gifted and talented programs (at least from my experience) tend to herd kids together that have similarly high IQs and low emotional/social skills. Diversity of interests and experience with people outside that "camp" is what transforms the math/science/computer kid into a well rounded person.
I am not knocking gifted/talented programs, I think they do more good than bad. But, if you're looking to build social skills, I think your best bet is to find ways to link them to others that don't have the same set of skills and interests. I saw Karate, and running mentioned. Although I am not a shining example of social aptitude, I found that diversity in sports as well. For me it was high school wrestling that helped me see that there was more to life than school and helped me develop a healthy respect for the physical/emotional aspects of life. For others I knew, it was music, or school politics that helped them develop those views. Hobbies like reading, ham radio, computers (& BBS programming in my youth), RPGs, and medieval history, are the typical solutions gifted programs encourage. These tended to further isolate the kids I knew that sunk their worth into them. I think gifted people (geeks) gravitate toward those types of activities because they challenge our way of thinking and I am just as interested in those types of things as any other slash dot reader, but they aren't going to be the fires you want to fuel if you want to build social skills.
The biggest factor in my life that helped me find who I am however, is not one that can be encouraged or taught. For me, coming face to face with the question of why I exist led me to picking up a bible and reading. Coming to grips with the fact that God loved me through all my questions of self-worth, and lack of social skills, gave me a challenge I could never get bored with. Serving Him, and serving others just as Christ did - regardless of my imperfections. It's what has made me the type of person/husband/employee I am today.
Way to take one small illustrative point and base an entirely negative opinion on it. These kids are also taking calculus in the 6th grade. But I guess learning complex math is not worth noting. They also do things like play several instruments, create interesting art, speak and write other languages, read novels, and do social service projects. But lets focus on the fact that they did extremely well on a standardized test and point out that it doesn't mean anything. Twit.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Yes, but what if (like me) he doesn't know what the hell to say next?
What we really need is a "Get Laid HOWTO". Any chance of that getting added to the LDP?
"
Such people are very sensitive to being crowded, or loud or sudden noises, or in the case of my son, the high-pitched whine of an ultrasonic cleaner (such kids tend to have excellent hearing it seems).
"
Maybe AS ppl do have exceptional hearing, but I would be more tempted to suspect that your son's hearing the high pitched noise is normal.
Children have better high frequency hearing than adults. Even by the time an individual is 20 years old their hearing has been significantly degraded from when they were young. The world is a loud place.
If you've lain in bed at night hearing the whir or whine that many people notice in quiet times then you might know what I'm talking about. You are hearing the ringing in your ears from the damage you have recieved earlier in the day.
Seriously, I think that's one of the few posts that have actually deserved the "Funny" tag. Good one.
;)
My "women" part was meant to be funny; perhaps the juxtaposition of the gold brick statement made it less so.
I meant that most people just trust a company and will treat them better than they'll treat you. i.e. You'd give two weeks notice when they'd tell you to leave immediately. Learning that lesson is vital in your "pre-professional" career. In my case, I sold glasses before going into engineering. I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned from them. Now that I'm out in my "real" career, I don't have to make the mistakes, but I still learned from them. For example, the odds of someone saying, "Hey, remember that time when Magnus wore checks and stripes?" are pretty low.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
...can help an introverted kid learn to socialize:
1) self confidence
2) practice
3) desire
And without the 3rd one, the other 2 are pretty useless. Notice, however that all 3 are internal to the kid & won't come from an outside source. The only thing you can do is try to introduce him into situations where he can build self confidence and situations where he HAS to interact with people in order to get himself something he wants (thus creating the desire) - best, of course, if you can get both of those at the same time.
I haven't read everyone answer to this question. However I can tell you what family did and I did. 1st off is to know and understand that being a geek is not a bad thing. However, sciance and math are in every aspect of life. Music is a huge thing, reading music has a large mathamtical attribute. And I am not just talking classical music, but rock or rap. I for example learned to play the drums, now I DJ at a nightclub part time. It is a great way to meet the women, and it forces you to take a bit of pride in your apperance. Another things is my friends tell me I am a pool shark, because I am so good at it they don't want to bet against me. Well guess what Pool or billards uses physics. Also you have to play with others and talk to as well. You start with talking about things like music, Movies, which actoress or actor (depending on your sexual preforance) is the hotest, or which band do you like. This is the way I avoided the hassles of being made fun of. Also learning to deal with people is not a easy thing. Just like all things in life, we have to learn how to do it. And those who say that computer people or geeks or even sciance people don't have to deal with people are wrong. Our life and world is built off a community, that means we all have to learn how to interact with that community and what is required to fit into that community. This means takeing baths, this does mean not eating a clove of garlic and then breathing in peoples faces. If we value our privicey and what to be treated a certin way that means we should treat others that way. *sorry my soap box* As one of my teachers said to me "Don't be a sciance nerd, take the time off form the lab or the computer to enjoy the world around you. Learn to apprcate the things that make life worth living, i.e. art, music, laughter, and family and friends." By the way this teacher was one of the top in the Microbiology field.
When life hands you lemons, ask for Taquila and Salt.
I was a Special Ed teacher for students with learning disabilities. By definition, LD students have average and higher intelligence. But it seems that as the IQ goes up, social skills go down and social skills training is part of a good LD curriculum.
There are several strategies to help such students learn social skills that Cognitive theory trained (as opposed to Skinnerian) teachers and therapists employ. (Behavior modification may work for keeping the kid still and quiet for the moment, but it won't work for acquiring social skills for life.)
You may be better off seeking a psychologist or therapist that has the requisite knowledge and orientation. There are ways to do it successfully.
These diseases are serious. All the people who claim to have them are not.
I've always been fairly un-social, but back in junior high I found a group of people who played Shadowrun, and joining them did wonders for me. I learned how to interact with peers, and had a strong common interest
:)
It is true that RPGs are typically geeky activities, but that's both a good thing (since we feel more comfortable playing them) and a bad thing (since it won't help with popularity at school), so, in the end, you have to take the good with the bad. But how much do we really have to care about stereotypers? I know I don't
http://www.skullsecurity.org/blog/
Australia was originally a penal colony of the UK. About 250 or so years ago, it used to be where the British sent their criminals.
Recent research has shown that there is a criminal gene that is passed down through the generations. Bearing in mind that a lot of the Australians have descended from these criminals, it is likely that the average Australian is more likely to have criminal tendancies than the average British person.
However, back in those days, people used to resort to crime not because they were criminals, but because the hardship they had to endure made them become desperate and resort to robbery to survive. So not all of them had that criminal gene.
Get some hot chick to do some stuff inappropriate for discussion in this forum with him. That'll fix him real quick.
Being social is different for different people. You didn't say specifically whether your pupil is introverted or not, but you can learn a lot about introversion by reading The Introvert Advantage (Slashdot review). I've found some really useful things in there as relate to my students (and myself.) This may be irrelevant but it's worth checking out.
Ravi
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
Where did this bizarre confusion come from anyway? I'm sure that these words were not confused with such regularity a year ago.
Once I thought it was a dialect issue, with some people pronouncing lose and loose identically, and then spread from there in text. This theory arose from the lyrics of a song where the lyric sheet said "loser" but the singer sung "looser".
I thought, teach them right: "Lose rhymes with use; loose rhymes with use," but that suffers ambiguity in the written word. So I went with the rhythmic, "If your use of lose and loose is loose you lose," though I have no measure of its effectiveness.
Unfortunately there's more to it than that. Look at other words similar to lose: arose, Bose, chose, close (both pron.), dose, expose, grandiose, hose, impose, juxtapose, morose, nose, oppose, prose, rose, suppose, those, transpose, verbose, all of them not pronounced the same way as "lose". Only "whose" matches "lose" (and often people prefer to incorrectly use the contraction "who's" instead for the possessive "whose"). (neither pronunciation of "close"), and you have the counter-example of choose.
"Lose" is a quite unique word, matching pronunciation and spelling with "whose", and still people don't know that the possessive of "who" is "whose" and not "who's". (No possessive form of any pronoun uses an apostrophe.)
Consider also the common misspelling of "tongue" as "tounge" like "lounge" as an example of a highly unique word getting misspelled by trying to make it conform.
(At least you don't see "luse" instead very often.)
When everyone is hooked on phonics, they don't learn the exceptions.
But it is not as recent a problem as only one year ago. It has been a widespread confusion on the net for well over a decade. And it exists outside the net. Try turning on closed captions for your local news. You'll often see "loose" there when the word should have been "lose".
"Affect" and "effect" are another pair of words that are often confused. So much though that I have to stop and think even when someone uses them correctly.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
//sorry it's not in C, java is quicker
A real programmer would have written that in assembly.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Your student lives in a world filled with idiots (relative to him). The reason you can't get him to interact well with others is the same reason you can't get most average folks to interact well with severely retarded individuals. He's operating on a completely different intellectual plane, and trying to get him to think and act like his 'peers' will inevitably cause him to shun his intelligence. If you truly want to challenge the kid, start throwing stuff at him that's years beyond what he's currently being taught by others. I think your only real hope of improving his social interaction at all without dumbing him down is to introduce him to psychology and sociology at a level that's challenging for him. If you help him understand the underlying motivations for his peers, you may find that it helps him to better deal with them.
Regardless of how he handles the social interactions, never, never stop pushing the limits of his intellect. I can tell you first-hand that the moment he's no longer challenged, he'll simply glide through whatever it is he's asked to do. As the cliche goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste - moreso when you're dealing with a brilliant mind.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
I'm handicapped, at least legally, heh. I have hemiparisis of the right side (about 40% motor control of my right hand, arm, leg, foot, etc). Been that way since birth. In addition to some minor dain bramage that's left me with a very horiffic case of discalcula (trusty TI-30 or TI-83 never leaves my side). One nice side effect of living with a disability from the get-go: ADAPTABILITY I've had to adapt both physically and mentally to just about everything you can think of, as a result I think fast on my feet and can see solutions to problems others don't. I have an IQ in the 160 range IIRC. My parents put me through a lot, from physical therepy when i was a toddler to piano lessons (you try playing the piano with just your left hand), T-ball, basketball, karate and the like. I've been teased out the wazoo, was the grade school punching bag. teased due to my weight (i got chubby around the 3rd-4th grade) and my dumb right arm ('retard' 'fag' 'fatty' need i continue?) I found computers at a young age and have become quite the geek, though I am just now starting to write my own BASH scripts having discovered linux a few years back. For recreation, i attend local LAN parties and bowl (i can do ~150-180 now), turn my pals into creamed-corn. interesting life, no.
Logistical Chaos Officer http://www.slagg.org - LAN Gaming in Sarasota FL,USA
... obvious but often neglected. It depends on the kid, his personality.
Urge him to write. Slashdot, blogs are fine.
Some physical excercise is never waste of time. Just take him to a walk and discuss nerd stuff while you take a bite of fresh air.
Take a pet. Cats are good. I have one.
Even fish might work.
So. Look into his eyes. There is no formula.
but some people need long uninterrupted attention "dives" (there even might be a scientific name for this)
:)
Not combing hair for a week and then coming out of some deep thought and noticing other people and sun around you.
Or not. Maybe this teenager just needs a slap on his head, "comb hair, brush teeth, do your bed, be a decent nice-smelling person"
Amen to the above. I work with children with Aspergers, and perhaps the main reason the "label" is worthwhile is because the way to learn and teach social skills, etc is different with Aspergers than with other people. Folks with Aspergers can often be without the ability to read some social and emotional data from others, and need to learn these things in a much more intellectual way than others. Doing all that work rarely seems worthwhile unless you know why you need to learn it, and why you didn't just pick it up while growing up, the way other kids did. A label without help, or adding stigma isn't helpful. A label that increases understanding and gives you options, choices and hope can often be a relief.
Well like most other skills Social skills are improved threw practice. But the problem with people who are a bit slow on gaining social skills is that they are caught in a catch 22.
Because their social skills are low they dont make many friends to interact with and so they dont practice good skills.
Some things that can usually help them out is getting them involved in other extra curlectlar activites. Like the school play, where you can all geeky messing with the light and sound systems but you still need to interact with other people who do different things. I know slashdot is not a very religous croud in general but Religious clubs are often very efective, Being in a place where people feel compled to be nice to other people (at least in their group) and help break the catch 22. Teach them some good humility and not humilation, have them relize that just because they are super smart it doesn't mean that they are better then anyone else and that all people have special abilities and atributes. Because part of the social problems is the feeling "Well they give me a hard time because they are jelious of me." So they will just confine to themselfs and not try to be social. But if you get them to relize that other people have different and usefull talents that they may not have then they may start to think mabey they are "making fun of me because I am actually doing something non social". Finally have them learn to laugh at their quirks and not get defensive at it, this is sometimes the hardest thing to do. But if you get them to spot and be able to laugh off their quarks it will help them become less defensive when people point it out. When the kids are less defensive they are more willing to become a little more social.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Hi,
... that he really didn't care that deeply what other kids thought of him. He thought they were mostly stupid.
I am the mom of a boy who had no social awareness. I had doubts if there would even be anybody who would want to work in the same space.
I have found, and he agrees, that the problem was
We solved that by enrolling him in the local college, at age 11. He is now, at age 13, active in the Physics club, Math club, Honor society, and a very happy, generally tidy person, with some manners.
Being groomed, eating with utensils, and general politeness, became important. Going to conferences, speaking in public, and interacting in the real world took care of it. Which is what happens to most of us after we leave school. For some children schooling with age mates is really not appropriate.
I know junior high and high school depressed me.
Salsa, Tango, Swing
They force him to interact with the dredded females in a regulated situation. The Physical contact keeps them interested.
They can easily become addicted to dance, especially Tango.
It is physical activity that even the out of shape geek can do well.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
It is only the magnanimity of social networks in human civilization that allows for the existence of loners.
In nature loners would starve or would be chased away from the pack, and most likely will not allowed to mate because they would spread and attitude of lack of cooperation which is essential for survival of the group.
The loners pretend that they live in isolation, but human culture has reached a point where the social net is so big that can satisy individuals that od not wish to interact with society at all.
Even the unabomber had to make regular trips to the nearest shop and to publish his demented ideas.
The loner is a myth, is just and intellectual construction of people that wish to deny their primate nature.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Explain to him that the whole "social signals" system is a fault-tolerant handshaking protocol for humans. Two computer systems peering will exchange a rigid set of questions and response to verify that they are using compatible protocols and that what one says, the other will understand as it was meant. The same is true of human beings: if you dress in a socially-approved manner, practice socially-approved hygiene, conduct conversations according to socially-approved protocols, people are more likely to understand and believe that the two of you can cooperate to mutual benefit.
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
Social skills are very important things to learn. Because of a life-long anxiety disorder that casued me to be virtually agoraphobic during my High school and Early college years I know first hand the enormous consequences of inadequate social skills has on one's life. At 23 I am still a virgin and have never actually been on a date, not because I am ugly (I like to lift weights and love the Elliptical machines. I have 16 inch arms and 9-10% body fat) but because I NEVER learned how to relate to women. Actually I was rather terrified of them. Now I'm just incredibly awkward around them. And now that my anxiety is somewhat under control I feel trapped by my past i.e. I have the enormouse burden of being so very self-consciousness of the fact that I am a 23 year old Virgin who has never been on a date or even kissed a girl. Won't most girls see that as just incredibly pathetic? Thats my fear.
I have never dressed to conform. I have never used a suit or necktie. Not even for job interviews. This may be pointless but I have worked for and with Fortune whatever companies.
My grooming routine? Shower daily, dress clean clothes. Period.
I have still to be denied a job, I have a great life. Uhm. And I cut my heair every six or sevem months.
So frankly I don't see your point. It is so ful of stereotypes and generalizations that at the end has nothing worthwile to say about the topic at hand.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You would not be posting a single comment to this site if it was not for the social interaction that allows you to rant.
There is no single human activity that exist in isolation. None.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You are clearly having trouble understanding the problems faced by somebody with AS. Your example is utterly useless here. I give you a better one.
There are certain elements of social interaction that are inborn, and some that are learned. Imagine if you were not able to interpret any of these. Imagine that you had to interact with people entirely through email or IM, without the use of emoticons. You would not pick up on flirtatiousness, irony, sarcasm, impatience, ANY of these types of subtleties of human-human interaction.
You would quickly find yourself very socially crippled, would you not?
Please mod me up. My grandma might not make it to the weekend and she always wanted me to hit karma cap.
Aikido is great.
Not too rough but it gives you great balance and I'm convinced it massively improved my coordination and made me feel way less geeky and awkward.
Also because of the closeness of Aikido to Ju-jitsu and other sword based martial arts you can change if you decide later on you want something more full on agressive or you can combine Aikido with soft style Karate to give you a more rounded education and let you learn a good punch or kick (although I always favoured an openhanded punch, because it is way harder to miss almost as sore for your opponent but less risk of you breaking fingers and your oppent is rarely happy about having basically been slapped hard in the face by a geek).
The less said about Steven Seagal the better.
When the gifted youngster is in a food hall/canteen (s)he may want to serve some tea/coffee to peers. If his/her peers are mature and decent individuals (s)he will get at least a "thank you" and maybe a smile. This approach will develop a simple skill - serving others - and recieve much needed feedback - gratitude - which will build his/hers self-esteem and confidence around others. With persistence the gifted youngster will also make friends.
True, I do value social interaction somewhat. But there are levels of interaction one is willing to accept. I would be perfectly happy even without Slashdot. Extrapolating from personal experience, I can be reasonably sure that I will be able to happily live for at least a few months, probably as much as a year without watching/reading news, without seeing humans or talking to them (face to face, by phone or online), without playing multiplayer games or interacting with them in any other way. The only thing I would need is a relatively comfortable apartment, food, computer and enough things to occupy me (books, games, movies, Internet connection).
:)
There is no single human activity that exist in isolation. None.
I assume you never tried masturbating?
As a side note, I usually (there are exceptions) don't care about my online interlocutors, I take every comment at face value. So it is not really social interaction, as some form of interactive reading.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
Suddenly, I was in a huge community of street smart kids who liked the same music I did and some of the geeky things as well. But what helped out the most was me discovering that I am actually a good dancer. This confidence boost was HUGE and I had the hottest girl in school come up to me one day and ask me if I'd take her to a rave. She was a bitch and I said no, but it was soooo worth it. Raves do wonders for geeks.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Fencing requires/builds excelent coordination and stamina, is also known as physical chess, so the better your mind is, the better you will do, and these days there is fair mix of both genders involved in the sport. Another thing that stands out about fencing is that safety comes first last and in the middle. Few (if any) other one on one competitive activites put the emphisis on safety that fencing does. And probably just as important, fencing is just cool.
My comment may be too late. :).
It sounds lame, but band is really a great way to break into being somewhat social. If the kid shows any sort of musical aptitude you should tell him to get some private lessons on an instrument (of his choice) and then to join his school band. If he chooses trumpet though, be careful because he may become an arrogant prick
Band consists af a whole bunch of other nerds and geeks, but from varying backgrounds of geekdom. Also, there usually tends to be quite a few other strangelings in there so he won't feel alone.
Band will create a social environment where people _must_ interact with him, and he _must_ interact with others. By the time he gets into high school, he will at least have basic social skills.
Also, you are almost gauranteed a woman if you are in band due to the "band inbreeding" effect.
Have fun,
- Heath
Sorry, man, but I gotta agree with her. Between you and a smart chick with boobies, I gotta go with the smart chick with boobies.
+++ATH0
Come on, Adolf, you should know more than anyone that not all men are created equal! Some "people" are just bad at everything, and they must do their best to scrape out a meager existence. Some people are good at everything and get hated by everyone else for it.
My best advice for this kid is to wear a T-shirt that says something along the lines of: "I'm smart, but I have no social skills, so rather than kick my ass, why not just appreciate your superiority to me?"
I'm not trying to devalue their accomplishments. I am simply stating an opinion on that particular one.
I suppose you have some more non-sequiturs to go along with your next reply?
Nice ad-hominem at the end. Shows your level of intelligence. (I will not degrade myself by going down to your level, so I will not end this post the same way as yours).
Heh, I enjoyed reading that post. My first undergraduate degree was psychology, and aside
from the typical liberal arts benefits/deficiencies, I attribute it to giving me lots of insight about dealing with people.
Another thing that can cause you to handle interactions more adaptively is meditation. I'm not saying you have to buy into any "school" of meditation but just basic mantra or breath counting types. Leshan has a good one called "how to meditate". It improves concentration and reduces anxiety.
Regarding Martial Arts. My daughter has been taking martial arts for 4 years(age 8) and she does positive things at her age that I would have never done. There is the coordination benefit, but the main thing is that she has to learn complicated forms and steps, help teach complicated forms and steps and get up and test for belts in front of dozens of adults and peers. I don't know about you but when I was 5 or 6 I didn't ever have to do that type of thing.
Anyway:
A)psychology gives you insight into your own behavior.
B)meditation is good for calming down and not over thinking your experience.
C)Martial Arts are good, NOT to just kick ass, but to develop confidence and a skill for which someone can be proud. A byproduct is that they won't feel the need to fight, because they won't be as easily threatened. And if all else fails they may win the fight (sorry Martial Arts doesn't assure that you will always win fights).
Society doesn't really reject folks. Not from what I've experienced...mainly I rejected them.
Once I grew some balls, and had the nerve to start conversations wiht people a lot and say hey when I saw them they quickly accept you. Step up to the plate and just do it.
Life is like licking honey off a thorn
I don't believe that acting actually helps. I was in the same situation until the age of 18 - trying to find friends acting had backfired as the discrepancy between them and me bothered me more and more. It just doesn't make the part of your soul that's not a geek happy. Especially not when there's women involved. This was less than a year ago.
The secret is to change. To stop being afraid, to become a complete human capable of building relationships. I spent my childhood and youth in front of the computer screen drinking coke. Then I just stopped, and by the help of a few people who were interested in me, became a different person.
Today, I get along well with lots of people, have friends, play music. This hasn't harmed my intellect in any way. My horizon widens every day. The most important thing however is that I feel happy and confident and that I feel capable of building relationships wherever life may take me.
Help your student develop these skills and become aware of these fundamental human interests and needs - he will eventually thank you for it.
Yep. You are obviously quite intelligent yourself.
Nice ad-hominem at the end. Shows your level of intelligence.
FYI, ad hominem is not hyphenated. And it isn't a noun. You accuse someone of using an ad hominem argument, then the very next sentence use one yourself (then claim you won't degrade yourself by going to that level). How (unintentionally) droll.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
laugh...because I have 8 days to waste on a slashdot post
:) )
(besides, _real_ programmers aren't biased by the apparent 'cool' factor of a technology...they choose the tool for the job
I did not use ad hominem. I pointed out something that you did.
Do you have any actualy replies to my original point, or are you going to continue to try to insult my intelligence?
actually, it is quite common to hypahenate such phrases but you apparently are too close minded to accept this which makes you a hypocrite.
i agree with boobsea. the ACT score really doesnt mean much.. I've seen plenty of people with perfect or near-perfect test scores who were total idiots. doesnt mean your 5th graders are idiots by any means but its nothing special. it seems more like one of those things parents push their kids to do to say "my kid is better than yours!"
1. Make it an intellectual challenge. Social skills, relating to people is a whole new world they CAN enjoy. In fact that world will be more rewarding or more painful than anything in the world of knowledge throughout the course of their lives. Often such folks are proud of their intellect -- appeal to it. 2. Give them a safe place to start. Perhaps for readers, _Emotional Intelligence_ and _How to Win Friends and Influence People_. As an intellectual exercise try predicting the outcome of 'TV reality show' type games like "Survivor" or "The Mole". Maybe make up your own social game experiment. I have found books on Assertiveness training helpful in dealing with contention. 3. Let them celebrate their differences. Each of us sees the world in a unique way, and that's okay.
Yeah, I can tell you really turned out as someone people love spending time with. Arrogant prick.
Get him to apply for a magnet high school like the Louisiana School for Math, Science and the Arts or the Texas Academy for Math and Science. He'll be surrounded by peers and probably thrive on the extra work.
I agree with you. I was speaking more about revenge than anything else. The people I've encountered from my past have all grown up since then. Revenge seems completely senseless in this light. If you're acting purely in the name of revenge then you are wrong. If you are neutralizing an active threat then you are in the right (but make sure you WMD are actually there first).
Photos.
Great responses above, got me thinking about my own life.
I was certified gifted as a child, and my mom put me into the local magnet schools (after several years wait) -- to me, this was a bad mistake. I went from being the "smart" fish in a small pond of mediocre but friendly kids to just another smart kid in a pack of intelligent but overly hostile kids. I think part of the problem was that these kids had been raised in an environment of extreme competition, and thus naturally found reasons to find fault with other kids. Asian culture might have something to do with it too -- a lot of the kids were Asian, and there's a tendency in many Asian cultures to hold children and individuals to extremely high standards. I knew Asian classmates whose parents screamed at them if they got an A- or B+ -- not really a healthy environment for getting along with others. Finally, to me the so-called magnet curriculum was geared more towards the "high achievers" (basically workaholics) vs. the real "gifted" kids (kids whose IQs tested as gifted or higher) - this thus created a highly competitive busywork environment, where the sniping workaholics thrived, while the absent-minded professor types, smarter but less focused, were preyed on or at least marginalized. Not a lot of effort put into developing higher thinking, just making it look good for the parents -- "Gee, look at all the WORK your kid did this year!". (WHEW, big paragraph)
By the time I was in Jr. high, I had self-esteem issues, and early teenage years being what they were , kids weren't too nice anyway. I ended up sinking into semi- self-imposed exile as a loner. The funny thing was that my Jr. high was in a very tough area of the city, and we had both local kids and magnet kids in school. I got along great with the local kids, future gangbangers and chollos all, while I was ostracized and bullied by the magnet kids, once again. I was smart enough to go back to my regular high school once jr. high was over, and was able by my senior year to get good grades, some self-confidence, and even a girlfriend.
Looking back, I would have opted for homeschooling if I could. I would have had much more confidence in myself, instead of the self-esteem issues I still battle with. Kids do need "Social Practice", so get them involved in something where everyone who is attending wants to be there (unlike school). I did the Karate and Tae Kwon Do mentioned above, which seemed to work well with my lack of enthusiasm for team sports. I also did Boy Scouts -- can't recommend that enough, as it will help a nerdy kid gain acceptance and learn the "masculine ways" of guys his age, as well as some good skills. It's very unfortunate about scouting's rules about gays, but don't let that scare a kid away -- there were a couple of kids in my troop who I am pretty sure were gay, and they made Eagle, so it just comes down to what kind of troop you are in, and how laid back they are (don't join a paramilitary one).
Well, that's my ramble, and if you actually read it all, congrats and thanks. I guess my basic points are:
1. Magnet school sucks, it's like law school for tots. Stay in the regular/honors program and just learn. If the kid is getting picked on, get them homeschooled or change schools so that you can preserve what little self esteem they have.
2. Get social practice. The more kids talk to others their age, the more comfortable they are with "making conversation." Sports, service organizations, anything the kid is actually interested in will help provide these opportunities. School is not necessarily the best forum for this, as no one likes to be in class, and talking is discouraged there anyway.
Look, I'm sure I'm bitter and that was a particularly snide remark, but it really does depend on the environment. Lets say that the majority of people were more interested in science and math than smalltalk. If you never really came to grips with, say, integration, you'd have problems interacting with the majority. Would this mean that you had some sort of medical condition that needed to be treated with drugs?
Real, provable medical conditions are one thing. Syndromes that appear to exist purely due to an abitrary definition of normal worry me.
Consider the local pool hall. Take the kid there regularly until he has a decent game on him, then let him loose on the challenge table or a competition, provided he can handle the rest of what goes with competition.
I found pool hall patrons to be incredibly friendly, not caring who I was or where I came from - all they cared about was 'Can he play or not?'.
Pool is also good because a player should think about the shot they want to play compared to others, and why that shot is better than any other because of the angles and shot power.
This isn't an ego trip, I am only a bit smarter than average, but some people never quite fit in.
This quote caught my eye, "If you don't have a significant other, then that part is missing."
Even after finding a significant other, some of us struggle even to relate to them. Even if they are smart, intelligent, educated, or whatever, some of us will never even be able to perfectly relate to them. I started school at 4 years of age and was reading on a 3rd grade level in a month or so. My wife teaches children the same age, and they barely cover the whole alphabet. I have learned not to even talk to her about it. It isn't worth the trouble.
I am always wanting to learn, even if it is time consuming, and often pointless. Many other people don't seem to have that need, and just drift thru life. Those of you who were always the one the teacher asked to answer the questions they couldn't answer probably know what I am talking about.
The closest I have come to fitting in, is after I learned to value others not for the things that make me special, but for the things that make them special. It isn't all about intelligence and technology that makes people special. It is character and integrity.
That said, I can relax and hang out with the "normal folk". Yeah, they get freaked out when I techno babble and explain things a few levels too deep as if it was part of normal conversation. But as long as I am not looking down on them or judging them, they are pretty accepting as well.
Still, sometimes it seems that it will never get easier to fit in completely.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Posting as AC because everyone will hate this post. Such is the story of my life.
I completely agree with everything you said about the "praise" crippling, except insofar as that relates to your social life.
Besides having parents that essentially refused to tell me that I did anything wrong and were very (ridiculously) supportive, I also had the misfortune of being so much fricking smarter than everyone else that I may as well have been an alien. High school was a big joke for me - I could usually be found smoking pot in the bathroom or in the hallway taking a test (all of my teachers were absolutely convinced I cheated on every test - since I aced everything and slept in their classes) - if not, I was out skipping school and may be found in one of half-a-dozen other high schools in the area, eating lunch with one of my girls or just pissing on the system.
I was a hacker, cracker, phreaker, coder and had production code on the market in a big way before I was 16. I raced BMX, played football, wrestled, played basketball and was a competition diver. I also had hair down to the middle of my back, colored 6 different colors, dropped acid and smoked pot regularly.
I dropped out of high-school at 16. Partied like an idiot for a year and somehow got a scholarship to college - where for at least 2 years, I thought I had finally found some interesting shit. You know, discovering advanced mathematics, modern physics and whatnot was really great... But I still didn't attend class, still aced my tests (I generally liked to derive the equations to solve all problems on the tests rather than try to memorize the equations - but somehow I still finished in 15 minutes when everyone else took 1 1/2 hours). F*ck it, after 2 years, I was teaching graduate computer science while a junior in EE. I was doing postdoc research in AI. I was bored. Off i go again..
And it doesn't stop... Not just the stupidity of this fucking world and the elasticity of the average, but the ease of the social as well.
Sorry guys, being smart DOES NOT make being social difficult. In fact, it makes it trivial. The easiest thing in the world to do is play chess with people. A word here to that one, a few other over there (let's call these memes for a moment, k?). Let the memes start to stack up like a nice house of cards. Constructed properly, you can pretty much build whatever social perception you would like to in the minds of whomever you wish..
Who cares... Today, I'm in my thirties... I've made millions - the hardest part about doing that was making sure that the acquiring compay doesn't know that I designed and built everything complicated. Have to carefully spread the credit around and even make my guys believe they did things they didin't.... After all, can't be locked up in the acquiring company, right?
I date strippers, models... They fight over me... This type always has, since I was 16... And I can be the biggest arrogant prick in the universe. I don't even bother hiding it, because at a moment's notice I can pretty much re-arrange your brain on you to my liking. If I don't like the way you are interacting? Reach in, reprogram. Done. You wouldn't even notice me doing it. I can act like a prick to you and make you think I am a saint.
Live is f*cking boring guys. I will tell you this much - the post near this one that talks about how 'stupid people know they don't know much, somewhat stypid people think they know more than they do, somewhat smart people think they know everything and truly brilliant people know they know essentially nothing" - that is an interesting point of view... But it is so contextually messy as to make me laugh... After all, what does knowing things have to do with intelligence?
A truly intelligent person doesn't give a crap because he is all alone (without peers) and life is boring when you are alone.
---
Currently working on destroying my own life in order to have a challenge.
Good luck to all of you - I hope you find your nirvana, whatever that is. Be thankful you don't have everything.
I was one of the most socially awkward kids in my school before I joined the speech and debate team my freshman year. Doing my event (extemporaneous speaking) not only helped me think on my feet and make credible presentations, but it also taught me the value and the methods of small talk. And I got to practice this between rounds in the cafeteria with all my friends that I met from other schools. I developed a really nice network of like-minded people, and on occasion we still keep in touch, though we've all gone our separate ways.
Speech has meant a lot to my life. It vastly improved my social skills and motivated me to succeed and communicate with others. I still do it in college (policy debate, which isn't as social but is still a lot of fun) and I always keep with me what I learned from the activity in high school.
Encourage your son to stick with it. It's an amazing activity, and its benefits are enormous.
www.tealeaves.org "All you need is love." -
>Mamma
>the President's a fool
>why do I have to keep
>reading these technical manuals?
That sig just made you my friend. I read it right as the song was queuing up.
-------
Time is linear
memories are strange
history is for fools
man is a tool
in the hands of the great God almighty
Perhaps another aspect of maturity is less confrontational discussion. Maybe an eye towards collaboration instead of denunciation? 'Grow up' indeed.
Photos.
I've never been as extreme as the post sounded nor as some others, but I've alway been a geek and never hugely social. Through elementary and middle school, I'd have one or two close friend, and very few others I could socialize with at all. After freshman year of high school, I quit fencing to join theatre (not for social reasons...guess it was just in my blood). Working on shows (acting or tech, both of which I've done quite a bit of) makes you work closely with a ton of people, even for smallish shows. It didn't take that long until I had my first real girlfriend. She wasn't in theatre, but it was the social skills from theatre that got me there. That and she liked my flair for the dramatic.
I'm now a high school senior who has not been single any longer than I've wanted to be any time since last January. I still don't have throngs of friends (well, I do read slashdot after all), but I get along with most of the people I know and feel very comfortable in most social situations. Acting taught me to leave the computer on my desk and see the world that has people in it.
I fenced through middle school and into high school. What I found is that since fencing is a solitary impersonal sport since both you and your opponent are in masks, it doesn't exactly inspire socialization. Even standing around the water cooler between bouts really only acquaints you with the people at your club rather than teaching you social skills. Yeah it can be fun, but if it didn't hurt my social skills, it certainly didn't help.
He'll know what to do with it.
1) Get a grip, move on, forget about the gun, and say who cares.
2) Kill Himself.
3) Kill the Bullies.
--- It's people like me that make society bad. I expect to get modded down a long long ways.
If you read Paul Graham's article, he states that smart kids are smart enough to be *social butterflys* if they want to be.
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
Farhan
in india they treat kids who are good in math and science and studies with some respect, becos that's the stuff that succeeds in india..
here they make sure that the kids do not survive the bullying in highschool (if possible) and call then geeks and nerds, while revering the idiot football player and dumb smoothtalker a free rein..
then they wonder why india does this, india does that..
> Most of the time, I just don't think it's worth it :)
:) Thanks. Will try to take your advice.
Explain?
Nice post, btw
And who says that you have to be presentable and have perfectly combed hair, clearly Einstein himself had some degree of difficulty in locating a comb. My suggestion is to let him be, and give him the stimulation he craves, many creative types are introverted, and it's generally an accepted added ingredient with greatness, don't send him to karate, why not just let him do what "He" wants to do. Chances are, he's probably intellectually decades ahead of his peers. (No-one in my coding group appears to know how to use an Iron or a Comb).
It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Well, I just think you must make him undersand that although he is some kind of gennius, he must use his skills too check how independent of society he is. And if he is that smart guy that you say he will recognize that social skills is something for his own good... but I dont think that being like the others, that kind of "one way talking people" is good for anyone. He just have to find people withwho he wont have to do no big sacrifice to spend some time with.
A: The bully that is picking on his will be sweeping the floors at his office in 10 year. B: There are very attractive female geeks too. C: Who gives a rats ass what other people think. Late
..but I'm going to have to kill you: "quite unique", "highly unique"? Some crimes are unpardonable.
Anyway - that seems a reasonable explanation of "lose/loose". As for misspellings what about "yacht"? I always have a desire to stick a "gh" in there somewhere.
This bothers me so much.
1) The "gifted" youth just means that his prime intelligence is in Strategics (see Keirsey.com). There are plenty of "gifted" youths in the other three intelligences that simply aren't recognized for their brilliance.
2) His MBTI is probably INTP, which is shared by about one percent of the population. As an introverted thinker, his f side is the least likely to be developed. Trying to develop it will hurt more than it helps.
3) If he doesn't care to have social skills, he probably doesn't need them at this point, so why force him?
Anyway, to learn social skills he'll need to see it as a system. There are plenty of books on the subject. But don't push it. It is unlikely that he'll even care until somewhere into his late twenties when he begins to develop his S side.
Have you read my journal today?
I couldn't manage to wade through enough of the comments to see if this had been mentioned yet, but speaking from my own experience (which, admittedly, might not be the "norm" for a geek, since i'm a girl), i gained instant coolness in high school by playing guitar.
it's not even really necessary to have talent; i didn't pick up guitar until i was already 16, so back then i wasn't even a very good player at that point. honestly though, just HAVING a guitar (especially an electric) gives you instant cred. you can be sitting in class and someone makes a comment about led zeppelin or something, and you casually drop a remark like "oh yeah, i was just working on the intro to 'Heartbreaker' the other day..." and people are immediately impressed.
Since this kid is intelligent he probably already has some music skills. He might even want to try joining/starting a rock band. Artistic integrity aside, it's undeniably a great way to gain popularity across multiple social groups whether in high school or college.
just my $0.02
There is nothing wrong with being a loner if that is what you prefer. There is nothing wrong with prefering to only socialize with people you find interesting.
Can you tell that this kid is unhappy with his life? Have you asked him if he wants to change? If the kid is happy with his life then you should let him be.
It is annoying that introversion has been targted as a problem. The only time it should be considered a problem is when it causes the introvert to be unhappy.
Stupid people outnumber smart people. If you are smart you will most likely end up living an introverted life because there just aren't that many smart people out there. It's hard to be an "outgoing person" when every social event is filled with idiots.
To a "normal" person TV and sports are about the most interesting thing you can talk about. To a smart person TV and sports are about the most boring thing you can talk about.
To a "normal" person science and philosophy are about the most boring thing you can talk about. To a smart person science and philosophy are about the most interesting thing you can talk about.
Why is one prefrence considered normal and the other abnormal? It's a numbers game.
Welcome to my Foes list. If only I had mod points...
Every time you run "emerge", a Microsoft drone dies.
Paxil
BendyMind
Just give him some beer!
Alexey
I am 44 years old, female and have an Asperger's syndrome diagnosis. Let me make this clear. I love my diagnosis. I love my "label". It has lifted a tremendous burden from me. I got put in this nicely labeled box less than a year ago. I tell everyone I dare that I have Asperger's syndrome. No, most people don't know what it means, and can scarcely believe that I am autistic, but I am. Some AS need lots of help, I am trying to get accomodations, a few small ones, at my university. I need a label in order to get those accodations. I won't be able to get something like SSI, they wont' believe that I am disabled to that point because I have used so many coping mechanisms for so long that I am perceived as normal (except that I limit my contact with people as much as possible and I can be a little strange as far as how people perceive me). If I was a kid with NVLD or AS or High functioning autism (keep in mind these labels are in a state of flux and may have all new definitions next year) I would dearly love someone to explain why I felt like an "alien" or "a machine" or why I would rather be a dog or cat... Labels can be wonderful things. What is not wonderful is for someone to say, "I know what Aspies are like...they are like this...." We are an extraordinarily heterogenous group. That is in the peer reviewed medical literature. Meet one Aspie and you have NOT met them alll. Thanks for giving me a chance to put in my 57 cents worth. oddizm -nor-cal autie
My bridge-playing friend tells me Bill Gates and Warren Buffet play competitively, and are referred to by other players as "$92 billion team"
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
Regarding the cost of books: some bookstores have a pretty generous return policy -- if they can resell it, and you bring it in with a receipt and before the time limit, you get a refund.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
I have a natural bias toward this solution, but it helped me so much that I now encourage it onward:
In some places (usually where there is money, but not necessarily), the schools get into competative public speaking and acting. I coach these events for a high school in suburban Chicago. Kids typically need no previous experience (or talent, for that matter) when they join up...we work that out later. The average kind of kid that we get doesn't fit well into a group and has very little confidence. Normally they mumble and keep poor eye contact in conversation.
Typically there are lots of different categories to try, depending on the state. So the geeks that like to write their own version of "Hitchhiker's Guide" will be happy, and the geeks who are Republican at way too young an age will be happy as well. If the team has a good energy to it and is supportive, the stagefright is over very quickly. The important thing is that it gives confidence through a trial-by-fire, so the effects are long-lasting.
I got this gig because I have a theatre degree (certified geek), and I've been coaching for four years now. I had some Freshmen four years ago that couldn't find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight, and I kid you not, this year one of those girls is athletic with awesome grades and guys are indimidated to ask her out! Competative forensic speech and acting work just as well if not better than any other activity I've ever seen, and if kids can get into a good after-school progrom for competative speaking or acting, please point it out to them.
Seriously, though...maybe some books on linguistics or social activity? If F2F isn't the kid's strong suit, bridge to it from written material.
If you're worried that they're bad at socializing, as opposed to just not wanting to be around other people, you could probably do worse than directing them to NLP books. If nothing else, it presents human interaction as something hackable.
-----------------------
You are what you think.
Hi,
: ... and so on ... the humanity begon ...
... ... not always ... no scheme, no rules ... just an evolution of feeling. As some physicians said, space and time are consequencies of movements. no movement, no evolution, no time, no space, nothing : death.
...
.s'nuoM
: ...
Thinking is easier for a "gifted" student. so you must train them to think ( on a very passionating subject ) alone (,) alot, again ( bis repetita ).
After, you would ask each of them to explain to a different groups of totaly standard persons that doesn't know the subject of the reflexion, the conclusion of his thinkings.
your exam could be how the "gifted" reacts to the questions about the explaination his passion.
The "gifted" must learn how he is alone to become social.
while the "gifted" thinks he shall be understood by a subset of the world, country, city, street, family, friends, he can keep the vanity to be understood by a minority, he believes to be an elite.
when the "gifted" realizes he is only the words that the others had understood, and feels totaly alone in front of the irrationnal being of the humanity, and discovers that he is totaly irrationnal too, he would become more social by listening to words, by listening to peoples.
Everybody feels to be alone. that's the reason of many things.
The "gifted" can feel his thinkings and think his feelings. this barbarian method trains them to feels actively a inconscient part of the humanity
am I alone ?
why am I alone and sad ?
where shall I go to be less alone ?
where did I come from ?
where am I ?
am I doing right ?
why the other seems happy ?
If I do as right as the other, can I be happy like him ?
is the other superior to me ?
can he be my master ?
can I talk with him ?
can I learn from him ?
This other said me he's feeling so sad, am I less sad than him ?
can I talk with him ?
can I teach to him ?
can I be his master ?
can I be the master to another one ?
do I find a truth ?
must I learn The Thruth to all others ?
who give me this Truth and this Power to Save others ?
truthes and rules make the social community. doubts and evolutions feel us free but alone. sciences try to reduces them to minimal axioms. but sciences are humans.
we are all alone, so we aren't alone at all.
feelings act as the connectors, words are disrupters
doubts can create the culpability, the regret, the remorse, the heresy,
doubts can open to freedom, with others, with cooperations, with communications. but we need to overlap an big handicap : words and meanings.
the "gifted" can feel that.
-
nota bene
Kohelet said a interesting about the question
Seriously though, as long as you have sufficient social skills not to get into a fight during the course of average everyday things like shopping, it can hold you until you can get into a social situation with kindred spirits. It's just that you will be able to do a whole lot more socialization with stronger skills. However, if your happiness does not depend on socialization with others, it's largely irrelevant.
So, most people, I just don't feel a need to talk to. The kind of people that I really get something out of talking to are people like me, which is to say geeks - not necessarily computer geeks but people who are passionate about something outside of them and feel a need to learn more, and maybe a need to share it with others, which is certainly one way in which my geekiness manifests itself.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
At my school, the time limit is the second week of school or so. Our bookstore is run by eFollet. I have never encountered so useless, poorly managed and ruthless a bookstore as eFollet. Avoid them at all costs. Well, I shouldn't put it like that, but since avoiding them will likely save you money...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Actually, I do have an idea how true this is, having been going to raves as much as I can afford to for the past three and a half years.
Lets say that the majority of people were more interested in science and math than smalltalk.
So what if people don't like a particular object-oriented environment?
That's how different from the median I am.
Syndromes that appear to exist purely due to an abitrary definition of normal worry me.
I conjecture that psychologists define "normal" as "median in capacity to learn emotion and in capacity to learn science" and that governments define "normal" as "most likely to conform to laws passed by the bought-and-paid-for powers that be."
The local Frank's Nursery and Crafts store doesn't carry cannabis seeds. How do I begin to grow my own?
...welcome to my neutral list. :)
Every time you run "emerge", a Microsoft drone dies.
HTH. HAND.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Let's just say I learned real quick how to deal with people.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
"It ain't bragging if you can do it."
- Women are about more than just sex. I'm not trying to say you're a cheauvanist, just that you're dwelling on only one facet of women. You might do well to simply practice talking to women. About mundane things. For example, let's say you're going to check in for a flight. You might normally just stand in front of the ticket agent awkwardly, fumble for your ID and hand it to her, then scurry away. Instead, ask her a few questions. "Is this a full flight? Do you know if there is an ATM nearby? etc..." Next, move up to small talk that is unrelated to the transaction (the weather, results of the latest sporting event, whatever comes to mind). If there's some question you need answered at work and you have a choice of whom you can ask, try to choose a woman. Anything to get you comfortable interacting with women on a person-to-person basis.
- 23 ain't that old to be a virgin. It's not like you're 40 or something. And anyway losing your virginity when you're younger (read: more likely to be losing it to another virgin) ain't all it's cracked up to be. My first time was very memorable in that neither of use had a fscking clue what we were doing. It was awkward. It hurt for her. Real romantic, I gotta tell ya. Sure, after practicing (and practicing... and practicing...) we got much better at it. But that first time? Better it should be with someone who is experienced, I'd say. Hell, you could spin it as a positive. What woman wouldn't jump at the chance to teach a man to do things exactly the way she likes it?
- For the love of god, do not say something like "I have 16 inch arms and 9-10% body fat" to a woman. Kidding. But the point is, no one is quite sure why women are attracted to men. We are hairy, rude, fart in public, keep messy living quarters, become assholes when we drink, can't dress, and all they have to look forward to when we get older is us going bald. But they are attracted to us, and they have their reasons. Fortunately, there are all kinds of women out there who are attracted to all kinds of men. There are plenty out there who will find your strong points attractive and your quirks charming (or at least not too offensive). But you will never find these women if you never speak to them. Hell, they're probably shy, themselves.
- No woman is going to think you are pathetic for being a virgin. The necessity for maintaining some sort of image left the day you graduated high school. When the subject comes up (not on the first date!) you could tell her the truth (chicks love minor doses of self-deprecating humor) "You're never gonna believe this, but it turns out I was actually not the most popular kid in my high school" and she is not going to think less of you. At this age people recognize how silly high school popularity consests were and even enjoy poking a little fun at them. Now don't dwell on this. Don't say it eats you up inside (even though it does) that you are a virgin. If you are able to say that you are a virgin in a self-assured way (practice in front of a mirror if you must!), and that you are ok with it, and that you will lose your virginity whenever it happens to happen. Just don't take it and yourself so seriously.
Ok. I'm tired of typing. But I think you get the general idea. Start talking to women, get your confidence up (women love a man who is confident, yet not cocky... good luck striking that balance 'cuz it's different for every woman), then start asking some women out.Just one thing. Dating is a game, and practice makes perfect. You're gonna face some rejection, and it's nothing personal. Don't take it personally and don't become emotionally invested in a women before asking her out! If she rejects you you'll be sad and won't try again. Always try again. There are always more women out there. Many of them will like you. I reapeat, many of them will like you. You just gotta not take rejection personally.
Good luck, man.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
I did very well at standardized tests when I was younger but when it came to College I couldn't cope with the work..
I was always used to being fed my material and learning it off by rote when I got to university I couldn't figure out what they wanted me to do half the time.
In the end I quit to work in a dotbomb company. Right now I am unemployed and have two children to feed.
So hes right, test scores mean shit.
Bethanie: Whore...
Fan Whore
I think one of the reasons that geeks usually don't have the same social skill-sets typical of many other individuals is because we have much better access to pr0n. ...thus the standard patterns of social-engineering social situations into errotic encounters is not a strict requirement.
Unfortunately most geeks will later discover that we need these skills for reasons beyond sexual gratification at some time later in life.
In much of society, Alcohol is the lowest common denominator. It is the great social equalizer!
I think the joke goes:
Premise: Only 5% of the population is actually tolerable.
Question: Then how is it that so many people hook up and get married?
Answer: Alcohol.
-- No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
Sports are fine, martial arts might work after years of study and introspection. To get results; get personal interaction. Approach the 'Angels' at the U to front the cost for a high quality sex coach to coax him out of his shell.
You sir are a twit. BTW, I would have slapped the little drama queen who "had" to stand up to think. Yea, riiiiight. The real world doesn't put up with such self centered bullshit out of people.
***Here are some of the imdb.com reviews for "Gay Niggers From Outer Space":
p hp
s _s tory_p.html
Summary: The best homosexual racial minority sci-fi film ever.
"Morten Lindbergs classic cult short, Gay Niggers From Outer Space is one of
the first short films to really stick to what the title suggests. From the
time the first gay nigger walked onto the screen up until the final intense
climax with the Tourette's Syndrome Kingdom in Outer Space, it's filled with
dark comedy, action and plenty of suspense. "
"Gay Niggers from Outer Space is a masterpiece of a film. No other film
portraits emotions as majestically and stunningly since The Legend of Nigger
Charley and Home Alone II. With a cast of all-star African niggers and a
director with Kubrick potential, it is no wonder that Gay Niggers from Outer
Space is marked the greatest film of all time."
"From the very first scene where Gay Nigger Harris throws up on his own face
and commits suicide, to the climactic scene where Nigger Ralph Nader and
Nigger Humphrey Bogart fight over the last hashbrown and pick cotton til
their noses bleed, Gay Niggers from Outer Space is the most magical
portrayal of gay niggers open to the public."
***However, no mention is made of the hazadous lifestyle of gay niggers,
so the following is an attempt to explain those hazards in layman's terms:
Despite cries to the contrary in the media, AIDS is still primarily a gay
and black disease. The media loves to report the "growing epidemic" among
whites, when in fact the rate of infection among heterosexual whites is
dropping off significantly year by year. The media though, reports only the
TOTAL current infection rate, not the RELATIVE. So while there are more
cases each year, the RATE of infection is dropping quickly. Except for the
gay/nigger communities, where it's skyrocketing.
Why does AIDS seem to target gays and niggers so much more so than whites
and straights? Anal sex. The anus was not designed to accommodate vigorous
penetration as occurs in anal sex. Unlike the vagina, the anus has very
delicate membranes, which damage easily. Couple that with the fact that
sperm contains immune system suppressing chemicals. That's why the sperm is
not treated as a foreign protein in the vagina...because of the immune
suppressing effects of the sperm cells. Without this effect, pregnancy
could not occur, as the sperm would be attacked as a foreign protein.
In the anus, sperm has the same immune suppressing effect. During anal sex,
the anal wall is torn and open lesions form. Because there is little if any
sensory nerve endings in the anus, this damage often goes unnoticed. The
sperm then induce their immune suppressing effect, and the stage is set.
Various bacteria both beneficial and infectious dwell in the colon, as well
as viral matter. When the anus is ripped open, exposing the blood to the
immune suppressing chemicals in the sperm, and the viral matter passed
along with it, infection is virtually assured.
***So does the skyrocketing rate of AIDS infection mean that there are
skyrocketing rates of gay niggers???
***Not exactly, because most White people don't realize that a large
percentage of nigger males are bisexual. It's a great irony considering all
of their macho posturing and affectations. They tend to admire the male
physique, and when no women are present, they will hip-hop dance with each
other. Any port in a storm will do, because da' brotha's just gots ta
have it!!! Then they pass along the virus to their wives, girlfriends, and
family members.
***Here is a story about this phenomenon from "The Village Voice":
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0123/wright.
And for the Toronto Gay Niggers:
http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2001-08-16/new
LOL. Anyone who doesnt agree with you is a twit?
I like how gosand gets all angry and uppity with people who disagree with him. Of course, his replies often have very litle fact but plenty of emotion.
We had these people in my high school. They were usually the ones who were insecure about their own intellect. They can't handle not having the world revolve around them.
P.S. Good job posting AC. At least this little bit of your absurdity wont be recorded in your name.