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The Introvert Advantage
Most people don't understand what introversion is. I certainly didn't, despite delusions to the contrary. The book begins by explaining what being an "innie" is all about, using a light conversational tone and experiences from the (introverted) author's life. A number of misconceptions are examined and dispelled. For example, introversion is not shyness or a lack of social skills. It's temperament, hard wired in your genetic code, and cannot be altered. To give some flavor to the remarks, examples of introverts from fiction and real life (e.g. Abraham Lincoln, Michael Jordan, Steve Martin) are listed.
The book includes what has to be one of the weakest personality tests ever devised. The goal is to determine if you're an introvert, but it appears that most responsible adults qualify. Some of my clearly extroverted friends got nearly the same scores as introverts. Skip it.
That test aside, the author does an excellent job of reducing the difference between introverts and extroverts to one of energy levels. Extroverts have more energy -- and recharge by being around large groups of other people, while introverts have less, and recharge by being alone or with a very small group of close friends. The very things that energize "outies" will drain "innies," leading to the "party pooper" perception.
One of the strongest parts of the book is a discussion of the physiology of introversion. Differences in the dominance of sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems (the "fight or flight" and "throttle down" feedback systems) explain why introverts tend to go through the day at a lower energy level than extroverts. Introverts tend to be less vocal and more "blank", especially when mixed into groups of active extroverts.
The discussion of brain chemistry is equally fascinating: introverts use different neurochemicals for memory, which is why it can take some time (and perhaps REM sleep) for information to fully settle and process. Hence the tendency for great ideas to occur during the morning shower. The chemical mix also explains why the sorts of events that stimulate extroverts can quickly over-stimulate and wear out introverts.
Dealing with Extroverts The second part of the book is about dealing with significant others, children, and co-workers. The first chapter has sections on different relationship pairings (introvert male with extrovert female, introvert female with extrovert male, introvert with introvert). These are insightful and, frankly, would have saved me some grief had I read them a number of years ago. The author gives specific tips for improving communication and understanding in each situation.The chapter on parenting gives tips on identifying introverted children and coping with them. This will be more useful for an extroverted parent, who perhaps doesn't understand why sitting quietly and reading has such a strong appeal. The chapter also has tips for introverted parents with extroverted kids, who need a little more outward show than the parents are perhaps used to giving.
A section on socializing and small talk is in this section, but such things have been covered more extensively in books on overcoming shyness.
Introverts and extroverts often rub up against one another in the workplace. In the last chapter in this section, the author raises a number of issues and suggests ways to cope with them. For example, introverts tend to immerse themselves in a particular project, and like to work without interruption for extended periods. Intrusions disrupt concentration, and regaining it takes time and energy. Extroverts enjoy the occasional interruption, because it gives them an energizing break and avoids monotony. Both sides expect the other to feel the same way, so extroverts interrupt others with quick questions (which annoys the introvert), and introverts try to avoid interrupting others (which makes extroverts see introverts as aloof). The chapter also discusses participation in meetings, giving presentations, and just dealing with people who "interface" differently.
There are other books on relationships, parenting, and on dealing effectively with others in the workplace. This is not the book that puts all others to shame, but if you're an introvert it covers the essentials.
Living in an Extroverted World The last part of the book discusses strategies for living in a world dominated by extroverts. How to manage your time, schedule your life in a way that won't cause overstimulation, how to re-energize through aromatherapy. There is some good advice here, but nothing really new or insightful.The author points out that 75% of people are extroverts, and suggests that might explain why the quick-thinking life of the party is idealized. Introverts often have self-esteem problems because they can't be what most of the world wants them to be. The point of this book is to teach introverts why they are the way they are, to show them which aspects of their personality are immutable and which can be changed, and most of all to show that that there is nothing about introversion that requires making excuses.
Much of the value of this book is in the first third, where the psychology and physiology of introversion are treated as an integral whole. Discovering that personality quirks and the desire to ask "how long are we planning to stay at the party" are normal and expected behaviors is liberating. (I'll be launching the Introvert Liberation Front shortly.) The later sections range from "just okay" to very good, but even if you've seen such before it's worthwhile to get a different perspective. Other books -- many of which are listed in the bibliography -- have covered these topics with greater depth or breadth, but the focus on looking at life from an introvert's perspective separates this from most of them.
I highly recommend this book to introverts or to extroverts with an introvert in their life. (If you work in high tech, you're probably one or the other.)
You can purchase The Introvert Advantage: How to Thrive in an Extrovert World from bn.com. There is also a web site for the book, with merchandise, downloadable pamphlets, and discussion forums. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
But I am a pervert. Is there a good book about that for me?
Q: How can you tell an extroverted computer geek from an introverted computer geek?
A: The introverted computer geek will look at his shoes while he talks to you. The extroverted computer geek will look at your shoes while he talks to you.
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
The first chapter has sections on different relationship pairings (introvert male with extrovert female, introvert female with extrovert male, introvert with introvert).
I'd revert before I convert to extro from introvert. Or is it revert to the original excerpt about the introvert formally known as extrovert? Hmmm... confused I am I am I am ... well does being a simple pervert count anywhere in this?
MoFscker
Extroverts think out loud while an introvert does it internally. Rather like the difference between an exoskeleton and an endoskeleton: same basic functionality, but the former is better off steamed with some garlic butter and a nice chilled wine.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
So if you program naked, are your intro or extroverted?
Dr. Laney's book will help millions of introverts understand why they are misunderstood...
I'm pretty sure my fascination with Slashdot contributes to this.
Oh, and don't talk about Linux in public. Ever.
Where does this guy work? :)
If that ever happens around here, the extrovert usually goes "Eeeeeew", and I just shrug it off anyway and go back to reading Slashdot.
Sounds like a good alternative book for parents. Beats them buying a bunch of "What's Wrong with my Teenage Son" books or mistaking introversion for depression, when trying to deal with something they have trouble understanding. Alex.
First of all I think each introvert process a different degree of introversion. I consider myself 65-70% introverted--depending on the situation.
With this degree of being introverted, I found this book help me reach a deeper understanding of myself. For example, of why I tend to get deeply involved in a subject or get zoned out when I concentrate on something. From that understanding I learn how to manage myself better in relations to others.
Setting several useful tips aside, I believe the understanding alone that I gained from this book give me a deeper self actualization, which in the process helps me see my own strengths and weaknesses. Seeing one's own strengths and weaknesses can certainly enable one to become fuller and lead a richer life.
I very much enjoy reading this book. In a way I felt like reading about myself even though I don't agree 100% with all the characteristics of an introvert as described in the book.
All in all I still recommend it as a very good read, eps. for all of us introverts
There is no god
Since most people are stupid, and I don't like to waste my time, does that make me an introvert? Just because I don't want to chit-chat about Survivor or American Idol?
Vote Quimby!
I was ready to post some really witty esoteric apropos joke, but I think I'll just keep it to myself.
I find a few quarts of ale energize me, and make me the most charming geek in the world.
I just posted an anti-introvert post on Slashdot, where I spend hours on weekly.
In trying to understand my own psyche i've been doing alot of reasearch on the net.. I am quite certain that myers-briggs/jung typologies are pretty much dead on.. i've had so many 'aha' epiphany moments reading about my personality type (intj), it's made my work life, personal life, and everything in between so much better. Having an understanding of your strengths and weaknesses is definately a good thing, especially in this day and age. Learning to exploit yourself, is almost as good as exploiting others ;)
http://www.humanmetrics.com has a great (free) typology test, but you have to remember to be dead honest with yourself when answering the questions (take your time!) once you have your personality type, the net makes it easy to 'find who you are'.
----------------------------
Esobofh - Currently drinking fresh mango juice.
Hi, I'm Sambo, and I'm an extroverted geek.
I don't know how it happened. All my geek friends are introverts that really enjoy coding while listening to 30 hour long techno tracks from Europe. While I enjoy techno, I really only grock it when we play Advanced D&D. I have a shorter attention span than most of my friends.
That's about it.
I get the feeling that this article presupposes that most geeks are introverts. Granted there are many that are, but there are many that AREN'T.
Mod me down. I'm a mountain troll.
... that can't stand the extrovert dumbass dogs.
Seriously, though, as an introvert, extroverts come across to me as dumbasses: backslapping, guffawing, shallow frat boy yahoos.
I'm sure the contempt is mutual.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
A: His shoes look at you while he is talking.
How to be a normal person in a world surrounded by slashdotters:
Page 1:GO OUTSIDE (most important)
page 2:talk to people
Linux: Helping nerds look smarter since the late 90s.
Wow, thanks for that link to bn.com -- I thought maybe I'd have needed to see daylight and maybe have to interact with someone at the cash register in order to buy the book.
I can do the social song-and-dance with the best of extroverts. I just prefer solitude or a small group of friends.
"A number of misconceptions are examined and dispelled. For example, introversion is not shyness or a lack of social skills."
As a shy extrovert, I can attest to this.
This sig wasn't worth reading, was it.
I'm introverted when I know no one.
I'm extroverted when I am afforded the opprotunity to talk.
Based on: "Dealing with Extroverts The second part of the book is about dealing with significant others, children, and co-workers. The first chapter has sections on different relationship pairings (introvert male with extrovert female, introvert female with extrovert male, introvert with introvert)."
If you are an opinionated introvert try to CHOOSE a significant other WHO IS also an introvert or at least have a backbone.
. . . until I got to the bit about aromatheraphy. Plueeezzzz
Seriously, I wonder if this book looks at the introvert/extrovert dichotomy as too absolute. I am generally an introverted person (I do, after all, read Slashdot!). However, in some social situations I behave more like an extravert (for example: the quick questions thing mentioned in the review). Pop psychology is perhaps more interesting if everyone fits neatly into one box or the other, but I suspect that reality is much more complex.
That said, this sounds like an interesting read.
"The dinosaurs died because they didn't have a space program." - Niven
Normally I don't like those... but that one made me laugh out loud. hehehe
Physiology Smysiology.
I can wrap up my introversion a lot simpler than blaming it on a physiological make up. I have to force myself to take an interest in the people around me.
It has taken me years to realize that other people are actually interesting and may actually be fun to talk to. I have finally learned to rememer their names and activities in their lives. I want to know how things turn out and what is going on. I stopped limiting my personal interest to characters in a novel even though I can interact with book based personalities on my own time.
If you remember something that happened in a person's life, call them and ask them how things went! You like when people take an interest in your life and they will also. Develop an interest in the world around you and not one specific subject. Learn how to engage in conversation and not small talk. Small talk is HARD!!! Conversation is natural and free flowing.
Have fun with people and your life will be more interesting.
--Keith
Its easy to steal their girlfriends, lunch money, take credit for their ideas, etc. :)
Introverts often have self-esteem problems because they can't be what most of the world wants them to be.
In my experience low self esteem often occurs because someone cant be what they think the rest of the world wants them to be. Personally I always find this strange because I'm pretty sure the rest of world does not give a shit about me so I dont really care what the world thinks anyway.
The point of this book is to teach introverts why they are the way they are, to show them which aspects of their personality are immutable and which can be changed, and most of all to show that that there is nothing about introversion that requires making excuses.
Is personality, or certain personality traits immutable? I would have thought that with the right stimulation it would be highly mutable. Thats ignoring the fact that we are intelligent enought to recognise our own patterns of behaviour and can suppress our natural instincts if we make that choice.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
You've had therapy haven't you? Geeks don't talk about self actualization and "managing themselves in relation to others". And it was a psychologist, wasn't it. They're half trained; you got so gypped.
The point of this book is to teach introverts why they are the way they are, to show them which aspects of their personality are immutable and which can be changed, and most of all to show that that there is nothing about introversion that requires making excuses.
He's right! There's no shame in being an introvert! Finally, after all these years, I can come out of the closet!
Oh wait... no, I can't. That's something only an extrovert could pull off properly.
which will state that the smartest 25% are much smarter
than the other 75% percent of people then discuss
how to arrange your life to live in a society full of idiots.
-Insanity, the sane adjustment to an insane world.
I'd buy a copy at the bookstore, but then I'd have to go outside.
There are lots of motivational books, very popular among sales people, that actualy try to take an often intro person and turn him/her into an extro, successful, rich person. It does not work that much for everybody, but it certainly gives results and gives self-esteem to an intro person that has to speak and sell to many different people, and it definately helps to stay positive during the day (believe me, I am definately "intro", and I needed that kick in the butt when I was a salesman). Now, could this book just be an excuse for introverted people to stay like they are, to make them think it is OK to stay alone? The author himself seems to refer to a "world dominated by extroverts" - why do you think extroverts dominate then? Just asking...
You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
...right about here:
. It's temperament, hard wired in your genetic code, and cannot be altered.
That's taking determinism a bit too far, I think. Genetic, perhaps -- but unalterable? Personality is not as incorrigible as that. There's no reason to assume that introversion is a defect or that it must be reversed, but claiming that it's inherently unalterable is just absurd.
Introverts need to learn a little extroversion just to get along in life. Human beings are social creatures, and generally speaking, two heads are always better than one when solving problems. One doesn't need to make a lifestyle out of it, but IMO the sooner an introvert learns some of the basic "tricks" of reaching out to others, the better.
The whole idea of splitting people into categories like this is really stupid. Hopefully, 100 years from now people will recognize that this is as ridiculous as phrenology (i.e. measuring bumps on your head to determine personality traits) is recognized to be today.
All is Number -Pythagoras.
"Introverts often have self-esteem problems because they can't be what most of the world wants them to be. "
I'm introverted and I don't have any self esteem problems and it has nothing to do with what the world wants. I'm introverted because I have found that if people find out that I know how to fix problems (caused by the incompetent extraverts that became extraverts because they had to frequently "reach out" to people that knew how to fix stuff), then they latch deeper into my skin than an alabama tick.
If I'm intoverted, it's because I want them to learn how to do their fucking job and not bother me with every petty problem that can be solved with about 2 minutes of searching. I withdraw as a defensive measure. The last time I said "Gee, that's an easy fix" was almost 3 years ago. Now I'm being rode like a $3 hooker and it's payday.
-B
You do? There's absolutely no doubt in my mind. It's hard wired. I didn't choose to be an introvert. Why would I deliberately set out to be socially inept, dismissed by others, generally lacking social skills, and looked down upon my the majority of the population?
As it happens, I think I'm better off being who I am, than being one of them. They think they're superior. I know it's the other way round. But I have no desire to correct their misunderstanding :-) The fact is, I can't imagine
what it would be like to be extroverted, and I
don't particularly care. Unlike some (many?)
introverts, I'm happy being who I
am.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
None of this is possible while sitting in front of a computer, being introverted. If you tell yourself you hate other people anyway and would rather be alone, that's an enabling crock of shit. Humans are designed to be around other humans.
P.S. LAN parties do not count as socialization.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Nothing a little (ok... alot of) booze can't fix!
I've taken the Myers-Briggs twice now and I've scored the same thing both times (INFP).
What I understand about introvert/extrovert is it's a preference of how a person gets their energy. For instance, an introvert obtains energy by being with themself. An extrovert gets energy from social situations. They obtain energy from other people.
Now, I can do both, but I really prefer to do the former.
My father is a blogger.
I'm waiting for a book called The Fat Advantage: How to Thrive In a World Full of Skinny People
Being an introvert, I've found that the biggest difference between an introvert and an extrovert is that being in a group of people pumps up an extrovert, but drains an introvert. I can be social, but it takes a lot of energy compared to the effortlessness of an extrovert.
For example, introversion is not shyness or a lack of social skills. It's temperament, hard wired in your genetic code, and cannot be altered.
This is true, and not true. It's like saying that if you're not a natural athlete, then you'll never be any good at sports. Not true -- it just means you have to work harder than a natural.
Social skills is the same thing. In my late teens and early twenties, I faced a choice: either become an "uber-geek", or change myself to become more "normal" and socially adept. I chose the road to change myself, and while difficult, it was certainly possible. It gets easier with practice, like anything else. It'll never be effortless for me, but I'm a lot closer to normal. Now I'm married with kids, and I'm damn glad a made that early choice.
I don't want to put words in the author's mouth, since I haven't read the book, but it sounds like he leaning toward "you can't fix yourself, so just give up and learn to deal with it.".
how to re-energize through aromatherapy
Oh, sheesh. Barf me. :-)
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Your crappy FirstPostCore got second post not first though.
I took a class on personality development and we studied all the 'great' minds who have put forward theories on how we get the way we are. Froyd, Skinner, Jung, etc.
I will now summarize for you what every one of them came up with.
"This is what happened to me when I grew up. I think this is what basically happens to everyone when they grow up."
I just saved you a semester of hard work.
.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Get it for $11 at Amazon and still avoid the sunshine
Help fight continental drift.
There are two types of people in this world. Those who believe that people can be separated into two different types; and those who don't.
There used to be a much better Perl-based test out there based on the book, Please Understand Me by David Kiersey and Marilyn Bates, but I found this test out there. (You can go to Kiersey's self-promotional site too, but it looks like they use some form of communist registration/info-gathering technique before they let you take the test.)
Introversion/Extraversion is simply one of many factors - in this organizational scheme, Jungian personality types adapted by Isabel Briggs Myers.
Buy it from Amazon and get it at less than half the listed price at bn.
My photolog
If you want to learn more about basic psychology for nerds, study the Meyer-Briggs Type Indicator. (MBTI for short.) lots of links (dutch and english)
This book seems to be based on part of their work.
My mother bought this book for me about a year ago after yelling at her for saying it was unfortunate that I was an introvert.
It annoyed me because she, like so very many people in the world, treat introversion as if it's a personality disorder. I explained to her that it's not something wrong with me, it's just how I am.
...and so she bought me a book.
I think this book, and the subject it addresses, is important. Don't let people treat your introversion as if it's something wrong with you. Maybe you have a good reason for not wanting to talk with people. People are often a waste of time.
Best read in good ol' Monaco 9 point.
Give X to the introvert and LSD to the extrovert
>There are two types of people in this world. Those who believe that people can be separated into two different types; and those who don't.
How about this:
There are two types of people in the world: those who can be categorized, and those who can't.
All is Number -Pythagoras.
I love people saying, "you'll recognize yourself in the descriptions." Well, duh, what do you think the author was planning on? Guess what, people believe in horoscopes and tarot for the same sorts of "aha" moments.
I too must be spending too much time on /. cause I recognized your sig.
::)
You post in just about every story.
-- taking over the world, we are.
Well, my theory is that by being an introvert so long, and wanting to "belong" and "be normal", I studied psychology and sociology just by observing people and researching. This gave me so much knowledge that I could start faking being extroverted when put on the spot.
Fast forward a bit and now whenever I am in a social situation where I need to speak to people, i am EXTREMELY extroverted. Yet I don't necessarily enjoy being in all those situatiosn...and often times wish I could just go back to sitting in the corner and being quiet. But I can't do that now because I feel compelled to be an extrovert otherwise people will look down on me.
Another interesting thing to note is that most of my social problems initially developed because of girls. And surprise, surprise, I still can't approach girls for the life of me, except in rare situations where I've totally blanked out and just went ahead and did it. Whats even worse is that now after having managed to date an EXTREMELY attractive girl (college sophmore hooters chick when I was a junior in HS), my standards are way above what they should be, and I can't seem to settle for someone who is more around my social skill level.
So a word of caution to all those who would strive to be extroverts when you are naturally introverts. It can make life seem better in many situations....business...parties....girls (sometimes). But ultimately, nothing can be gained from attempting to be someone who you aren't. And you will find that once you reach a certain plateau in that journey to be someone you aren't, you can't go back to who you once were.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
I've never heard about this Introvert vs. Extrovert stuff before so I read up on it on Google.
And I'm completely both at the same time. I can have fun doing either thing. Weird.
For example, I'm very social, I love going to parties and I'm never quiet. But I can unlike most people, I can spend 3 months completely alone in my house without any problems. I don't miss anybody.
If I have people with me, cool.
If I'm alone, cool.
Weird.
>> For example, introversion is not shyness or a lack of social skills. It's temperament, hard wired in your genetic code, and cannot be altered. emulated - personality disorders (caused by abuse, trauma, etc.) are like that.
Worse yet, they run root, and God won't give the psychologists the password so they have to hack in.
Dysfunctional nerds are not. A good litmus test is to ask yourself "Could I live with a clone of myself?", if the answer is anything other then "absolutely" then sorry, but you're a dysfunctional nerd too. Other people won't like working/living with you if you fall in this bracket - because you actually can't tolerate yourself either.
... ummm, you're in denial.
And if you call this post flamebait, it's because
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
Social psychology teaches us that behaviors and attitudes influence each other, in both directions. The way they "treat" shy or introverted people is get them to do something simple, like go to a bus stop and ask someone the time, but do it like they think an extroverted person would. Sure enough, with time, these behaviors influence the person's attitude and they feel extroverted.
One of the biggest differences I see in introverts/extroverts is if large groups of people drain energy or give energy to a person.
Ok maybe that is too simple, but it is a start.
75% of the population are extroverts? Most of the people I've met have been introverted just like me. But then again I'm a computer science major, I hang out in the computer lab and don't get too many invites to the big parties.
And the thing is, I've never had a problem with it. Do the self-esteem issues mentioned in the writeup stem from the "nagging" of extroverted friends? TV?
In my mind it seems to come down to parental support. My parents were fine with my preferring to come home and read rather than hang out with groups of friends. If my parents had been big extroverts and pushed me to be the same, that would have been hard for me.
I'm not saying I don't have self-esteem issues, I just have different reasons ;).
Caring for Your Introvert
I'm an introvert and I like what the author says about needing to recharge after a few hours of socializing. I find long stretches (ie 6 hours straight) of conversation totally exhausting... I wish I didn't, but that appears to be the way I'm built.
I disagree with all the 'more intelligent', etc. stuff, but maybe some of you will find the article interesting at least...
The whole idea of splitting people into categories like this is really stupid /. discussion and watch the two switch categories. As we are amply demonstrating herein. Then again, I would say that the BSD is dead guy is likely an extrovert, if not a robot.
Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but people do fit into categories. Slobs vs neat freaks, People who go home and watch E! true hollywood story, and those who would rather learn something worthwhile.
Phrenology is based on physical characteristics determining your degree of mongrelism. The degree of a persons introversion is determined by observation of that persons actions/reactions. The scientific method is applied in the latter, whereas the former is rightly qualified as garbage.
I will agree though that it's not quite clean cut on this issue. Put an Extrovert and an introvert in a
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
Me, being an extrovert will make it very clear to these people exactly how stupid they, American Idol, and everybody else is. Loudly.
Q. How many introverts does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. One.
SCO: I work for a company with no future
I went full bore and became a Misanthrope
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
All this info is in "Please Understand Me."
Nothing new here. Move along.
http://keirsey.com/Please.html [SEE, NO GOATSE!]
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
Introverts choose to be introverts because to the introvert its not "fun" to be an extrovert. Maybe they were extroverts when they were kids and got bullied, and learned to be an introvert, I think the world creates introverts because theres alot of mean ignorant people in this world.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who can understand binary, and those who can't.
So what is a "function"? Everyone has four functions that we use: Two information generating functions, and two decision making functions.
The informations gathering functions are called "sensing" and "intuition" respectively, and the decision making functions are called "feeling" and "thinking"
Sensing is about the here and now, and what has happened before. Intuition is about seeing patterns and multiple developments developing from a situation: Dreaming and imagination. Feeling is about making decisions based upon peoples reactions and hunches about this (empathy). Thinking is about making decisions on well defined thoughts logically strung together and disregard the fluffy stuff.
However as each person grows into and adult, she chooses to rely on a pairing of one of the information gathering functions and one of the decision making functions, and more or less disregard the two others. She often has a problem understanding that other people have chosen other pairings and this can lead to a lot of misunderstanding.
Anyway to get back top the discussion on introversion: When you have your two functions you rely on (as an example thinking and intuition), if the one that dominates is directed inwards, you're an introvert. Roughly half of all Americans are introverts.
Hackers and programmers come in all types, though e.g. INTJ is often associated with programmers. INTJ is a person who uses intuition as her dominant function directed inwards, and thinking (directed outwards) for decision making.
This is a large and complex (well basically a bit unstructured) subject and I fully expect a number of posters to point out errors in the above text :-)
who tests as ENFP (Extrovert intuitive feeler)
Anti Anxiety pills are a waste of money, drink a beer.
Working out doesnt help at all.
Reading a book is the last thing you want to do.
The funny thing is, I'm only introverted offline, online I'm an extrovert who posts all over slashdot.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Yesterday I read in The Atlantic. (I find the timing of finding that and then this book review interesting...)
It was like seeing myself fully explained for the first time. If you're not interested in buying the book, the article will probably do just as well.
I find it interesting how similar some of the symptoms match up between what the reviewer is quoting and some popular "identifiers" of Attention Deficit Disorder. I was recently (almost) diagnosed with ADD, and found the whole experience to be rather ... lacking substance. There were a lot of maybe's, and could mean's throughout the process, but this review brings to light a good point: how often are depression, anxiety, and ADD mis-diagnosed due to an incorrect interpretation of a person's personality type?
Most notably, the points about immersion into a project, or the need to break up what you're working on to feel comfortable; both are representative (supposedly) of ADD and ADHD symptoms, respectively. My tendency to withdraw, have a smaller group of friends, zone out (or into) a project were all signs that my physician used to attempt to give me a diagnosis of ADD.
Furthermore, I personally have a lot of problems with ADD and ADHD, in that I feel it is diagnosed too often, or for the wrong reasons. Perhaps this book and the study it represents would shed some light on cases where the stock "problem teen" issues do not fall under the depression/ADD cookie cutter mold.
That attitude will get you nowhere. The ones who file charges are just being a little frisky - call it "hard to get." Some even call it foreplay.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
The whole idea of splitting people into categories like this is really stupid.
And yet there are still people who like to go to loud, crowded parties, and people who would rather avoid such things. Different people do have different patterns of behavior, and recognizing this fact is not "making it up". The people themselves are making the distinctions, not the scientists slapping labels on each group.
Besides, these are tendencies, not hard and fast categories.
I read a book on generally the same topic a while back called: Why Should Extroverts Make All the Money?: Networking Made Easy for the Introvert by Frederica, Ph.D. Balzano.
The main lesson I got out of reading this book was how to deal with extroverted management. I code all day long and after reading this book I realised that much of the friction between my supervisors and I was that they simply didn't know what I did all day long! The book suggested frequently bumping into your supervisor and letting them know how you are doing and how your work is going.
Introverts usually take a task or a problem and mull over it in their mind for long periods of time. They don't feel the need to let their manager know how it's going. Instead, they'd rather just let their manager know when they are done. This inclination doesn't cut it with extroverted managers.
Anyway, my relationships with supervisors have dramtically changed for the better since I started frequently letting them know how things are going...
I highly recommend reading the book I mentioned. Get it from your local library though.... I don't think I liked it so much that I'd recommend buying it, however. It's just good for a couple of pointers.
because I'd be interested to see the support for your hypothesis
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I'm a closet extrovert.
Amazon has it for $7.50 Cheaper!!!!
The difficulties with large, noisy groups, dealing poorly with interruptions, the intensity of focus required to just sit for hours and do one thing, these are all autistic traits. Are autism and introversion on the same scale?
Hardware, software, and blinking lights!
I'm having trouble beliving this "hard wired introversion" idea, for a number of reasons...
:) )
I consider myself to be an introvert, but at the same time... in some situations I consider myself to be extroverted (Usually involving obscene amounts of ethanol
But still, to be more serious, if introversion is genetic, I guess I'm screwed
Long live paxil!
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
That's a different you that you are linking to....
Stop absorbing media culture designed to influence you into buying your way to a "better" self. Take in some real media that explores the true human condition. Not some shiny farce on NBC.
We are all big greasy, deficating, designed-to-be-sliced, burping, farting, evil-thought-having, depressed, lonely, barfing machines.
*burp*
You can set them on autopilot so you don't even need a free hand to read them.
I agree with the latter, but not the former. Not sure if you're trying to be funny. Some may choose to "act" one way or the other, but for some people it's quite painful to "act" extroverted. I can't stand smalltalk and trying to mingle with strangers, it's so freakin' boring. Sometimes I actually get pleasure out of sitting quietly and thinking about solving problems, or philosophy, or something like that. That ain't by choice.
It's more exciting to shoot them in the head after they steal my girlfriend, lunch money, credit for my ideas, etc. :)
That's crazy talk!
it's not a choice.
I'm an introvert. people bore me. I'd much rather sit here and work on my code instead of talk to other people about what I'm doing. I get energy from thinking about what I'm doing and from within myself. I don't NEED other people to energize me. I feel that this is a superior way to live, in fact, because I've been very alone before and I survived it. An extrovert would go stir-crazy and do things that might not be the best for them just to avoid being alone. Not needing others, but only having them in your life when you want them in it, helps prevent being taken advantage of by people who prey on others.
Oh, and if you're wondering, I'm getting married in November to another introvert, so it's not impossible for dregs like us to have what the holy extroverts have.
Hopefully, 100 years from now people will recognize that this is as ridiculous as phrenology (i.e. measuring bumps on your head to determine personality traits) is recognized to be today.
:)
Well, if the bumps are caused by an overactive brain desperately trying to escape too small a skull, maybe phrenology makes some sense after all.
There isn't even a site to slashdot!!!
Actually... introversion is most simply explained by sensitivity to stimuli. Introverts are much more sensitive to stimuli, so too much of it makes them need to shut it down by retreating into a less stimulating environment.
Extroverts don't have this hypersensitivity, so they enjoy more stimulating environments.
The more muted color tones preferred by introverts is indictative.
Introvert/extrovert is a current state of mind, not some sort of destiny.
It is entirely possible to act like an "introvert" one day (or whichever timeslice you choose) and an "extrovert" the next.
It's all about finding the appropriate tactic to fit the current situation.
Here's the deal, all you hard-core introvert-types - social skill are like any other skills - they are LEARNED. Some people have an easier time with the learning process than others, and if you are one of those who have a hard time with it, well son, the only way to get to Carnegie Hall is to practice, practice, practice.
But to just hang an "introvert" label on yourself and consider it done - that's just avoidance.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
I now choose to no longer be an extrovert, so it was a choice for me.
I'd much rather sit here and work on my code instead of talk to other people about what I'm doing. I get energy from thinking about what I'm doing and from within myself.
Yes I focus on my work now. There is a reason for this, most people are a distrastion and not worth focusing on.
. I feel that this is a superior way to live, in fact, because I've been very alone before and I survived it. An extrovert would go stir-crazy and do things that might not be the best for them just to avoid being alone. Not needing others, but only having them in your life when you want them in it, helps prevent being taken advantage of by people who prey on others.
Exactly, and thats why I choose to be an introvert. I dont see how its chemistry of the brain if I literally made a choice one day to become an introvert because I was tired of being an extrovert.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I made the transition from a solid INFP to a solid ENFP in high school... I went through a lot of personal pain and suffering to get there, but the change happened (not on purpose). I'd have to say its sort of wired in, but it is also like a habit - like a hologram of behavior... you have to really transform yourself to change. I imagine an extrovert could be tortured into an introvert, and visa versa.
meh
Shut up, you have the brain-pan of a coal miner.
There was a time in my life, back when I was a kid, when I loved to talk, express myself and be extroverted.
People changed that, my experience from being an extrovert, lets see, you get bullied more, people get jealous of you once you do get popular, you meet people who want to exploit or take advantage of you, etc.
If you are an extrovert and you keep getting punished for being one, perhaps you'll decide its better to be an introvert.
Thats how it was for me. When people are the source of all your problems, pain and unhappiess you'll want to get away from people.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I'm talking from my own experience, I knew how to be social as a kid, I had social skills as a kid, I was an extrovert as a kid. There are reasons for it no longer being fun to deal with people, bad experiences have taken all the fun out of it.
So you know, its all experience based, its not genetic. This is what I'm saying.
I made the choice to be an introvert, I dont enjoy meeting people anymore due to lots of negative experiences with people that outweight the positives, just like someone who doesnt like pitbulls after being chased and bitten by them over and over.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I had the opportunity to take a personality inventory assessment as a part of some pre-marital counseling sessions. One main idea from this assessment is that introverts derive energy from being alone, whereas extroverts derive energy from being around others. The scale between the two states can viewed as a continuum. This made a lot of sense to me, because, although I generally like people, it tires me to be around them, so I need to schedule "alone-time" to recharge. On the other hand, my wife is solidly extroverted, so she needs to have "socialization-time" scheduled.
Thanks for taking the time on this review.
I think you will find that many who appear to be extroverts have learned to appear that way but by some of the indicators are actually introverts.
I actually have worked with you and while you are possibly a more "classic" introvert you have learned to appear and do things that would normally be associated with an extrovert. Hence this may be why that introvert test you see is possibly skewed.
There are so many more dimensions to personality than just introvert/extrovert and some of the insights you see on this dimension have parallels in others.
There are other clinical conditions that have overwhelming effects on people and how to best work with them. Dyslexia is a HUGE factor as over 30-40% of people in the computer related disciplines are dyslexic to some degree and many don't even realize it. A lexic persona has extraordinarily different ways of processing information that a dyslexic one and many times what is obvious to one is black magic to another. Top these off with ADD, Aspergers and a few others and you already have a wild mix of personalities which quite frankly keeps it all the more interesting.
Also, you probably would not have appreciated this book had you read it when you were 20. It's only after the grief you allude to that you understand that this is very important for being able to work more effectively with others.
The one warning I have is that many people who realize the new "tricks" work well with people often make the mistake of applying the tool disregarding all other dimensions. It's the old "To a carpenter, all problems look like nails". This single dimensional thinking can get you into more trouble.
Glad to hear you're doing well.
O
Half trained? Personally, everyone I've ever met who chose the shrink profession, whether psychologist or psychiatrist, with like 3 relatively minor exceptions, has been there because *they* needed therapy. Not someone I'd go to for advice whether they had an M.D. or not.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
But extroverts cant understand this.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Also I think this book might be a bit of a placebo for those who are suffering from depression or social anxiety. Not so healthy.
_nfotxn
I am an introvert. Consistently labeled as such and branded, situations constantly force me to take up residence in the corner of the room nearest the exit. ;)
But put me in a crowd of strangers and you'll have a bigger extrovert than a frat boy at a sorority convention. Why? Because introverts fear 'repeat' business
Nah, I'll buy the book to read it but... I'm not gonna believe for a second its hardwired. I know why I stay away- but in a crowd it doesn't bother me.
If you'll forgive me, that sounds like something an extrovert would say. I'm a very strongly expressed introvert according to several typing schemes. However, I'm not shy in the least. I speak publicly on a regular basis, attend events and discuss my work with groups of people and have even been called charming from time to time.
But there is no doubt that I find any time that I do not spend alone to be exhausting to some extent or another. I can't sustain intense "people activity" for more than a few days before I start to lose the amiable charm and exchange it for very terse grumpiness or formal pedantry.
I don't care to be around other people all that much. Not that I dislike them or want to avoid them... but in general, people (apart from my significant other and perhaps one or two friends) don't contribute much to my moods.
But one of the things most introverts are familiar with are the endless stream of well-meaning people trying to get you "out and about" and "with people" and "living life" in some sort of party atmosphere because they're sure you're unhappy developing film for hours on end or hiking alone through wooded areas. I can't tell you how many times I've been told "I'd go crazy if I spent as much time alone as you!"
And then of course you try to explain that you are an introvert and you get (more or less like you just said): "Bah! It's all nonsense. You just don't know how fun life can be! Come to this dinner party tonight and you'll have a great time, I promise!"
So you go, you smile, you talk, and you gain nothing from it and feel quite exhausted by the end of the night, longing to get back to your darkroom... And of course as you leave, your well-meaning friend says "See, now, wasn't that fun!? You made quite a splash. And I hear you've been invited to..."
It's a fundamental disconnect that people don't understand unless they've felt it. When most people are having fun, my mind and indeed my heart are elsewhere. Conversely, when I'm having fun, people aren't generally around. If they are, I can rarely share my joy because they tend to think (no matter how I try to explain it) that I must be depressed if I can find such quiet, plodding, un-chatty things to be any fun.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
There is no better way to understand ``introversion'' and ``shyness'' than reading the books written by Elaine N. Aron (her website is at: http://www.hsperson.com/). She's a psychologist and has done research in this area.
It appears that in all higher species, including the human species, you will find 15-20% of the individuals with a trait that is called sensitivity. This trait manifests itself in many ways, with introversion and shyness being only two ways. However, many sensitive people are extroverted. So sensitivity is not the same as introversion.
She also explains why aggressive cultures, like for instance the American culture and many other western cultures, do not value sensitivity. But that these cultures could not exist without any sensitive people...
Peter Busser (peter (at) trusteddebian.org)
So their ability to garner insights dies with them. Extroverts get lots o poontang therefore promoting their generally aggressive extroversion. Introverts have to constantly relearn and reinvent everything.
looks like required slashdot reading after all.
I disagree - Many introverts see conversation as a medium for exchanging information. When a "geek" explains what he/she knows about a current topic, they are doing several things:
Most introverts could care less about the attention, (we'll skip the obligatory Maslow's Hierarchy comment) and will often keep silent regarding a topic to avoid drawing attention to themselves. Indeed, many introverts find that "being clever" is the best way to attract the ire of those around them. Many introverts find conversation to be of less interest unless the energy expended to talk to a person garners something in return... like new information or trivia. (Introverted conversations often start "Did you know that....".)
Let's remember that there are reasons to have a conversation that don't involve "social connections" of the extroverted ilk. Introverts communicate differently and for different reasons.
...Or perhaps the "walking encyclopedia" actually thinks such details are *interesting* and wants others to appreciate them too.
Shallow boneheads, who often strut and posture to get attention, interpret the brainiac by their own motivations and think it's "seeking attention".
it tires me to be around them, so I need to schedule "alone-time" to recharge. On the other hand, my wife is solidly extroverted, so she needs to have "socialization-time" scheduled.
Yeah, nowadays it's so important that you lead a clean, counseled, thoroughly scheduled life!
So what to do with the stereotype if you find out that you actually need to schedule both social- and alone-time in order to recharge?
I bet the counselor wouldn't find that a very acceptable result, and likely wouldn't rest before having successfully talked her customer into matching a stereotype group that neatly fits into her book.
Don't get me wrong - I don't want to rant against counseling (but I do anyway). It just seems that nowadays everyone's life must be planned and optimized by "experts", that sometimes really ticks me off. As if people are generally unable to find out about their own feelings without being constantly helped and directed.
Weaker sex until she knees you in the sac. :)
Mine is.
But I think its just a rather large coincidence.
The whole idea of splitting people into categories like this is really stupid.
So, I guess dividing them into, say, "men" and "women" is really silly?
Well, there are a few hundred other occupational/geographical categories that women occupy besides model, actress or Soho socialite. You might try expanding your search.
It's dangerous to 'lump' people and claim introversion is a genetic trait. It's like claiming sexual preference never is, or always is.
Some people have LEARED to become introverts when they're naturally extroverted. They get comfortable with where they are, but that doesn't mean they're happy with it.
I'm an excellent example of that. Getting through college was tough, I had a long drive and some pretty demanding teachers. When I finished I was living infront of the computer. I didn't remember another way of being. Comfortable, but unhappy. Now I'm forcing myself to go out again, and though not as comfortable as I used to be (I was previously Mr. 'I want to be the center of attention') I'm a lot happier.
Apparent introversion could also be from a lack of acceptable choices. Ex, you're an extroverted Jew, but you live in a town full of extroverted Nazis. They may invite you to the party, but you probably don't want to go...
There's an advantage to being an introvert?
As an aging spinster once said: "You lie, you lie, but, say it again!"
Sigh, I'll probably buy this book because I am desperate for self affirmation.
"You would say that. You've the cranium of a dullard."
As someone who used to do psychotherapy research, let me say that, in my experience, most psychologists are better than most psychiatrists when it comes to doing psychotherapy. On the other hand, only the psychiatrists know what drugs to give you if that is what you need.
There is only one reason you guys are all a bunch of introverts as opposed to being extroverts.
Quote: "A similar thing that introverts due (and geeks are notorious for) is replacing true conversation with being a walking encyclopia.[...] It's not a conversation, it's a plea for attention. "Aren't I clever that I understand clouds".
Wrong. It's not an attempt to be clever. Everybody, introvert or extrovert, is different of course, but generally the reason why introverts default to rational/logical conversation tangents (which often seems - in the words of the review, which you probably didn't understand - aloof) is that, in lieu of an easy ability to adapt to conversations in a way parallel to the main thread, they tend to use what they are more comfortable with: facts.
Introverts generally default to fact-based types of conversations (as opposed to feeling-based) because there is less controversy and less personal exposure if they are simply regurgitating facts, versus saying something that opens one up to personal criticism.
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
I am an introvert. Meyer-Briggs says so, and spending my High School years in my room reading Lord of the Rings over and over again confirms that. I relax by reading and being alone, or with one other person.
But the older I get the more extroverted I am becoming. I am still definitely an introvert, but though maturing and interacting with people I have become less introverted. I have talked with extroverts and they say they are becoming less extroverted.
I think, for most people, maturing and life causes one to move toward the center from the extremes. I will always be an introvert, but less and less of one.
On top of being a computer geek, I also have an interest in sociology and psychology. I've taken all those tests that determine you're personality type, most just for fun. The important one was done with the help of a professional psychologist (no, it wasn't because I'm psychotic, it was to diagnose a learning disability...although I'm a little psychotic as it is). Anyways, from those tests, I found out that I'm sitting in the middle of being introverted and extroverted.
What does that mean? It mostly means I'm just fscked in the head, but here's my own observations. I love my time alone, and I love my own space. I like to party, but I don't like going to clubs with lots of people. It's too easy to get lost in the crowd, and I don't feel comfortable meeting people in a bar. But get me in a small group where either I know at least one person, or I just feel comfortable with a certain group, and I can talk for hours. Or party for hours. Or just do crazy stuff in general. I like the attention from a small group, and usually get known as the crazy/weird/fun one.
But the downside is that if there's someone who constantly hogs the spotlight, and it turns into a situation where I'm either being ignored (because they are just sooooooo interesting to everyone else, or just control the conversation that much) or getting picked on (by them to make themselves look better), then I turn really shy and don't want to be there. I can't seem to turn the situation around, especially if someone is using me too make themselves look better. Most people are able to fire the insults back, but I get too frustrated and just feel like leaving. It's not as fun when things are too centered on one person. I know some people are going to think I'm a hypocrite because I said I like attention, but there's a difference. I like doing fun and crazy stuff, but I like to make sure everyone is involved. Given the chance, most people like to leave their mark, whether they're introverted or extroverted. They just go about it in different ways.
agreed 100%
:)
I've been down that road too many times
There nothing more relaxing than sitting in my dark room writing code _ALONE_
As usual, the answer to "Is introversion nature or nuture?" is "Nature and nuture is an outdated dichoctomy that needs to be dispensed with; genes react to environment and environment reacts to genes and can not be seperated."
(OK, that's not the "usual" answer yet, but it's the correct one.)
Anecdotally, I've heard that I was reasonably outgoing as child, until I started going to school with the twin sins of being unattractive (due to some serious teeth issues which were only correctly diagnosed in 4th grade) and knowlegeable (dear God was kindergarten ever boring; I literally remember the single, solitary fact I learned, and it was accidental, not on the cirriculum; the teacher accidentally used the word "opposite" and had to explain it). After that I became extremely introverted as a defense mechanism, which continues to this day.
No, I'm not socially incapable, I've just learned how to live without it, again, by force of necessity. (Actually, if I say so myself I'm actually pretty perceptive; I'm constantly surprising my wife by being right off of very little information, sometimes even on such big issues as "she's being abused by her parents" that you're really going out on a limb by predicting.) I sometimes call myself "asocial"... not "antisocial", just "asocial".
Nature or nuture? Yes. The introversion was always there in potential, but it took a certain extremely socially hostile environment to bring it out.
As if we didn't have enough divisionary labels in the world that propogate the illusion that we are not all one, now we need instruction on how to deal with other members of the human race that are more or less socially active than we are? Puh-lease.
Perhaps the "innies" the author is writing to/about are not pure introverts, but those that feel put upon, segregated, or otherwise "different" and "abnormal" because of their perception that being an "outtie" is how people are supposed to be. Well, to quote Denis Leary, "Shut the Fuck up; NEXT!"
Just accept people for who they are, while at the same time realizing that other people may not accept you for who you are. And that's OK cuz that's their choice. Deal with it however comes naturally to you.
Nah, it's perfectly OK. Just remember that you put categories on people, not the other way around. It's not like you're born into a specific category, the category is used to describe your traits or preferred behaviour, and then maybe to predict how you will cope with various situations. Much like an IQ test, but without the pretense of measuring a skill.
After reading through all the posts, it's pretty obvious that we've redefined introvert to mean "nerd" and extrovert to mean "cool".
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
Wow! The life I'm living isn't "just-right" because I'm not outgoing like everyone else?
I've been considered "shy" all my life. My father is an introvert, and the rest of my family is highly extroverted. Maybe it is genetic. Maybe it's the way I was raised (only child for many years, no kids in my neighborhood). I've survived, and done pretty well for myself. I'm getting married soon, I have a good job, and I have friends - what's missing?
I watch my outgoing friends make fools of themselves and piss people off, without ever giving a single thought to their words or actions. I know that these outgoing people are just as insecure as the rest of us, and use the stupid jokes and fast talking to hide their fears.
Because introverts are "different", there must be something wrong with us. We don't conform to this ideal that pop psychologists have devised, just so they can write books to change us or to "help us cope" with our differences. Just walk through the self-help section of any bookstore, and there's a book to solve any problem. Then, look at all the people in that section. It seems that no one stands up to that ideal. We all have insecurities, fears, addictions, and problems for which we need to have an explanation or excuse.
"Show me on the doll where the bad man touched you."
The everything2 node for introvert has some interesting information and mentions Carl Jung, who invented this type of classification.
The introversionextroversion spectrum (yes, it's a continuum, not sharply defined categories) is merely the middle of the autism/allism spectrum. Looking at the extremes of this spectrum is enlightening in dealing with the more densely populated middle section.
I'd say most people (extro + intro) are idiots. introverts just don't show it as much. Except on slashdot.
to be rather offensive. Perhaps the author of that comment should check the research on personality theory before making that kind of remark.
After all, you wouldn't run up to someone who is gay and tell them that you doubt whether their homosexuality is truly hard-wired, would you?
I'm sorry, but your rant has no basis applied to my statement. The counseling you question here was through a Presbyterian minister, with no monetary profit involved. Its purpose was to improve understanding of self and future spouse towards establishing a solid marriage. Furthermore, the insight provided *was* helpful.
Although there is nothing wrong with seeking our own understanding, we ignore the wisdom of others at our peril.
...but the perverts have the most fun with them.
Sorry introverts.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Correction, tell them to get a copy of "Please Understand Me II", "Please Understand Me" is a bit out of date.
People used to get this wrong about me in school.
Say, somebody would call me a moron. I normally either wouldn't answer, or mumble something like "If you say so" or just shrug. It got especially funny when somebody was really annoyed and yelling at me. They'd ask something like "Are you stupid, or what?" and I'd happily say "Yeah, I suppose so", or "what".
What actually happens is that I've got *way* too much self-esteem. I've been seeing that I just don't give a damn about what anybody thinks about me, as long they aren't a close friend. Everybody else can think that I'm idiot and that's fine by me. There's practically nothing that somebody I don't know well could say to me that'd make me feel annoyed. It gets to the point where I don't even need to be successful. I'm good at my stuff, and I'm happy with that. Failing PE, or anything else didn't worry me at all.
That combines with my introversion. I not only don't care about what some random person thinks about me, I usually don't even care enough to try to solve whatever problem s/he has with me. Simply because I don't see a point in it. I've already got my 2-3 good friends, and I'm happy with that.
There aren't more extroverts than introverts, it's just that extroverts are more seen than introverts, they tend to be the most popular ones, the ones in the public eye, the ones who speak up at meetings, the ones who head departments. Unless there are many more leaders than followers, more speech-givers than attendees, more politicians than constituents, then I'd say the above stastistic was manufactured out of thin air. I'd actually be unsurprised if extroverts made up less than 10% - 15% of the population.
Excuse my lack of vocabulary. I am sorry if this is too much off subject. I rarely choose to write or talk to express my views. I'm sort of an innocent by-stander in the grand lines of history. I find that people often forget that they are talking to members of the same species. I almost always see this kind of thing when people are debating on the subject of human behavior. I have often wondered why we all try to give out complex explanations of the way other people behave; instead of simply enjoying people for what they are. There is almost always something to be learned from an interaction with someone; if you find that this isn't the case with a particular person, why not politely end the conversation and go do something else? If you can't end the conversation, why not bear with it for a little while? Will it be the end of the world to lose (and I use that term quite lightly) a couple of minutes of your life? Maybe that person can learn something from you. Although it may seem like speaking to some extroverts is a lack of time to some of you introverts, I advise you to keep the utmost caution. The difference between the personality type extrovert and introvert seems quite thin to me when two people are put in a situation where they are interacting. We know that, I think, introverts tend to spend most of their time seeking solitary activities and extroverts tend to spend most of their time seeking social activities. Now the only difference I find between these two ways of living is what we commonly call a choice. And we all know that we most of our choices are determined by our past experiences. Someone might have experience a certain chain of events from the first moment of awareness that lead him to become either an introvert or an extrovert. We all live out life as it makes sense to us. And I am not talking about extreme cases, I am talking of people who've learned to find a balance in their life. As long as your way of living makes you happy and you don't feel like things should be changed; then I feel no one has the "right" to judge you. I guess most of this lies in the fact that we are all individually quite ignorant of the intricate mechanisms of human interaction. We all tend to get caught up in the moment and forget all the golden rules of good human interaction; namely, simplicity, understanding, open mindness, forgiveness and so on. But who can blame anyone, and why should anyone blame anyone? I do not believe that one or the other personality type is superior to the other one... And, to be honest, I believe a balance of both is needed. I don't like to classify everything, just look how hard it is to distinguish between order, class, family, sub-family, variety, etc; when trying to class this or that particular animal, insect or plant in the vast tree of life. I don't know if you've ever spoke to an old person with all his mental faculties intact. But I have, and so far most of them, have told me the same thing about human interaction. They have told me that the most important thing is to simply try to get the best out of every conversation. Also, a lot of them have told me that it's a shame that some people will go on living their lives endlessly debating about all the wrong things; unproductive things. Example of a waste of time for the casual human being who doesn't do in-depth research on the subject of human personality: Why am I talking to this person? Is this worth anything? Is this person thinking the same thing? Etc... Do you agree that it would be better for that kind of person to simply enjoy the moment? Why needlessly complicated yourself and further create a gap between you and another person who is somewhat different. Try to build bridges, don't try to build walls around everything that is different of you. As for myself, I guess you could say I am quite the introvert and hermit; considering I have only spoke to 6 people in the past 11 months. But I am happy where I am right now and there's no telling how I will be behaving in the future. It seems to me that people often tend to critici
That post wasn't helping anyone.
Listen, if you don't know any *extroverted* losers, you need to get out more often.
Wait, now I'm even confusing even myself...
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
You are on the internet being social at slashdot because its less threatening than to go to a picnic, but you are STILL being social.
This actually helps me arguement.
"Did I become introverted because of being picked on, or did I get picked on because I was introverted? Tough call."
I got picked on more when I was an extrovert.
I decline to go to social engagements not because I don't like being around people, but simply because there are usually other things I would rather be doing that happen to be more inward-focused, or focused towards my wife and I (who is also introverted, and from her background, might also dispute the which-came-first argument).
Like posting on slashdot? If you truely were a natural introvert why would you be such an avid online extrovert?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
counseling you question here was through a Presbyterian minister, with no monetary profit involved.
So I too generalized and stereotyped, my apologies.
Although there is nothing wrong with seeking our own understanding, we ignore the wisdom of others at our peril.
I think that's exactly the point. We're feeding so much wisdom-of-others into our life, there is hardly any chance to gather your *own* wisdom, to make your own mistakes, to take your own risks even if it's not psychologically/religiously the right thing to do. There is not much to learn, not to improve on if you're not going through life at your own peril. Advice is great, but I think people should always question that advice. While that may or (more likely) may not apply to your personal situation is not a judgement I can make without guessing around. But I still believe that the original observation holds true for a large number of people at the core of our society.
Disclaimer: I know, it's kind of cheesy, but I really don't want to (nor can I possibly) make definite assumptions about individual people that I don't know personally. Even though it's ironic in regard to some statements I make, one has to generalize somewhat if you want to talk about things like society.
So in that light
I'm sorry, but your rant has no basis applied to my statement.
you're right of course, but your statement was still a good trigger for what I wanted to say, without regard to your personal situation.
There is the professional life, and the personal life.
I'm forcing myself to be an extrovert in my professional life, but very few people know me on the personal level.
What do I talk with people about? Things that matter, the job, academics, and anything else that matters, perhaps I'll keep up touch with them so I can get a job through them later on.
Thats why you talk to people, you need to network and form good connections, you dont have to let them know you on a personal level or allow them to get close to you, only a few people deserve to know you on a personal level, the majority of people are business partners and you treat them as such.
This means you talk to them for a specific purpose or reason and not for entertainment or fun.
I only have a few people in life who I actually enjoy talking to, almost everyone else I talk to for specific purposes.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I never in my life have felt "lonely" like some people claim they feel. But really I grew up alone most of the time, I had few real friends, so yeah its easy not to feel lonely if you grew up alone.
I dont know, if its nature or nurture.
And its not looks that makes me not like to be social, I never really had a problem with that part, or even in dealing with women, my problem is, being social only brings pain. Most people you talk to arent really your friend, most women you deal with are after your checkbook and not you, and its just a very fake world.
People say the internet is fake but people offline are even more fake, when you open your arms to everyone and welcome everyone as a friend (extrovert) all it does is attract the people who exploit extroverts for their own advantage.
So why be an extrovert? as an introvert those leechers usually never notice you and only people who generally want to be your friend will go through all the effort it takes to do so.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I found this article by Jonatham Rauch in The Atlantic to be a big "aha" for me.
My name is Khendron, and... I am an introvert <applause>
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
Yeah, I was a solid INTJ in high school and college. The kid who never spoke in class but turned in excellent papers. Then I went to grad school and had to do some teaching. To be effective as a teacher, I practically needed a personality transplant. After adapting to that job for a couple years, I took the MB test again and was an ENFP.
Imagine my amusement a couple years later when I had stopped teaching, left grad school, and gotten a writing job: when I took the test, I was once again an INTJ. And there I happily remain.
Hi Yall,
:-)
The terms of this artical, were coined in the above book by the above author (1921). Popularizers have followed as has some desending fog....
I warmly recommend reading Jung, as he writes with much heart, which some academics loath.
I think Jung is correct to say that we/humanity is the greatest threat we face or more correctly spend most of our time avoiding. When I see people like Bush in charge, with so little personal insight & so much hubris, it fulls me with dread.
*BFN*
Haralambos
Introversion vs. extroversion is not a matter of verbal abilities. In my opinion, it's more a matter of one lives in a world of ideas, while the other lives in a world of people. Online use of verbal skills to play with complex ideas is thus exactly the kind of thing an introvert would do, whereas the extrovert would become bored with the "cold dry flat text" of a board like Slashdot and either go to something more interactive like IRC where he can feel like he's interacting with other people, or go do something with his friends.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
The majority of conversations that I encounter throughout the day are absolutely irredeemable, frivolous, and reek of an utter failure to see the seriousness of life.
Why should I want to reinforce this behavior?
I have a passion for three things:
1) Intelligent and passionate conversation about: epistemology, metaphysics, ethics, human rights, institutionalized oppression, abuse of government power, consumerism, corporatism, and unseating the social, political, and economic elite.
2) Creating a passion in others to see and speak out about the great injustice in this life.
3) Helping those who are oppressed and downtrodden, whether in their middle class lives, or from through the cracks of society, and empowering them -- making them to realize that they matter -- that they are loved as brothers and sisters, and that they can make a difference; believe that we will overcome.
- I do not care whether James' new girlfriend is hot. I will not reinforce this behavior.
- I do not care what happened on Friends last night. I will not reinforce this behavior.
- I do not care who the Bachelor picked. I will not reinforce this behavior.
- I do not want to get hopped up on alcohol and make it out what a 'stud' I am at the club tonight in order to get a member of the opposite sex into bed for a night. I will not reinforce this behavior.
- I do not think that your racist, sexist, immature jokes are humorous. I will not reinforce this behavior.
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
The author does in fact define introversion as hard-wired, much like which hand you write with. After reading the book, it's not a far leap to make -- people think and react differently. [Growing up in a family mix of very introverted and very extroverted people, it was pretty obvious to me.] So, no, technically, it's not going to be altered.
I had a chance to discuss this with a person at my company who does nothing but go around giving the Meyers-Briggs personality profile to groups who want to find ways to improve the ways they work together.
What she said about "hard-wiring" is that our natural inclinations and tendancies are indeed hard-wired, and cannot be changed. Inclinations, though, are not the same as behavior. People can learn to compensate for their tendancies and even change their behavior entirely if they need and desire to. (She also pointed out that most people don't really need to change their behavior - for most people, just understanding their personality traits, and how they're different from people with other traits, is usually enough for them to be able to interact better with otherl without having to try to fundamentally change their behavior.)
Something else that was pointed out to us is that the introvert/extrovert scale is a continuum. You can be strongly introverted, strongly extroverted, or somewhere in-between. For example, I am strongly introverted, but have some extrovert traits.
--Jim, INTJ
mod down
Secondly, behaviors can be learned and unlearned. Man is, after all, a very flexible creature. Thus I am probably as classic an introvert as you'll find (bordering on autistic), who is quite happy in the classic introvert's situation of a room, a computer keyboard, and lots of neat ideas to play with, but have learned over the years to enjoy interacting with and being in the company of competent people. But this doesn't change my fundamental approach to life, which is very much the idea-oriented approach of the introvert, rather than the people-oriented approach of the extrovert.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Aren't these the folks that created that game "Uplink?"
"People" are, by and large, assholes, bigots and users. I have little tolerance for this on a personal level, but that doesn't mean one can't function and even lead in a group of people - just as being an introvert (apparently) didn't stop Mr. Jordan from flying around the court, or stop Johnny Carson from making america laugh every night for 30-odd years.
Not liking people (and saying it) isn't necessarily about "enabling" at all. More likely, it's just about not liking people and all the bullshit they put each other through.
People at work sometimes give me shit about talking to myself, but sometimes verbalizing a problem either to myself or someone else allows me to find another way to look at it. Meyer's Briggs score at different times ENTP and INTP, getting more I as I get older, I think.
I never fit into ANY paradigm I've ever seen. For ex: I am sometimes introvert and sometimes extrovert, I prefer to believe I am the best of both worlds though.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Very few people here are debating "intro/extro" and are focusing more on "mainstream/alt-culture". Just because you "don't watch much TV" or "have anything to say" doesn't make you introverted, it just means you're less mainstream. If you don't have things in common, it doesn't mean you're everything that person is not. If they're Jewish, that doesn't make you Christian just because you're not Jewish.
/. and this is popular but not really 'mainstream'. And the fact that I, or anyone else, is actually posting, makes us much less likely to be introverted at all. We're talking aloud, online (extro), we're not keeping to ourselves (intro).
/. script-kiddie, don't post on topics you don't understand - get out of high school first, and then move on from the "Win vs Mac" and RIAA threads to topics more serious.
Many people here are trying to make the argument, not that they're introverted, but that they're alt-culture and not as mainstream. Which is probably true, because you're at
I'm very interested in this book because I read some things in the review that ring true to me, but I'm not going to decide I'm introverted just because the stat of 25% would make me a cool minority. "You just don't understand me!" And if you're a
Rock!
If you'll forgive me, that sounds like something an extrovert would say
Most people who know me would call me an introvert. So there!
All is Number -Pythagoras.
There is clear biological evidence for sexual differentiation. What actual scientific evidence is there that the distinction between "introverts" and "extroverts" is anything more than pop-psychology b.s.?
All is Number -Pythagoras.
Any "self help" book is aimed at making members of a particular population say "Ah hah! That's me!" when they read the first few pages. It's like heroin for the miserable. After all, if you were happy and well adjusted, why would you be browsing the "self help" aisle?
Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend I had who was addicted to self-help books. The following song was written in her honor :-).
Self Improvement
Copyright 1996 Eric Lee Green
Well I'm into self-improvement
oh I got all the books
you know the ones I'm talkin' about
how to improve your health and looks
well I read'm from cover to cover
every day from mornin' to night
well I don't seem to be improvin'
guess I gotta buy more books tonight
[Chorus]
oh I'm into self-improvement
oh I got all the books
I got a smile on my inner child
I'm in touch, connected and hooked.
well here's one 'bout bein' happy
and here's one about chicken soup
and here's one about becomin'
a millionaire before the age of thirty
[spoken]
whoops I'm thirty-three
do I want to buy that one?
No, here's one about being rich in your golden years
guess I'll read that one and see
[Chorus]
well my life is so darned busy
fixin' myself all day long
don't got no time for lovers
gotta fix every thing that's wrong
well I know if I just buy the right one
then everything will be all right
till then got no time for nothin'
gotta read these books to find a life
[Chorus]
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Try my essay What Changes, What Doesn't Change for a specifically Introvert/Extravert take on the issue.
For the issue of immutablility of traits, more generally, I cannot too highly to you recommend Listening to Prozac. This book has been woefully mischaracterized as a "pro-Prozac" screed, when it is a very thoughtful rumination about the philosophical ramifications of our personalities being materially determined by our brain chemistries. The author goes into considerable detail about research into the connection of brain chemistry and personality traits, also into the history of the politics of that research (which is also fascinating). To summarize, there is considerable evidence that people are born with hardwired predispositions (which is not the same thing as behaviors), the altering of which can only be changed by changing the matter of the brain. It's a fantastically interesting, thoughtful, and well-researched book; I commend it to you.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
While I agree that some of the reasons that were listed previously could true, it doesn't give purpose to why people talk. Whatever the reason you may think you have for talking, the true motives may elude our own consciousness. I can give any number of excuses, whether they're benevolent or malicious. Here's some...
Want to help someone
Want to hear a response
Want to hear a likeminded response
Want to see a smile
Want to see a frown
Want to hear a voice
Want to open your trap cause its there
Want to push an agenda of a very complicated psychological composition to further the goals of world domination.
The fact is that whoever designed you, be it god or alien or Darwin, designed you like all other living creatures on this planet, with a propensity to communicate and interact with others, be it of your own species or not.
George Norwoods (and that site you link) is a pretty funny guy. He's postulated some moral standards about what people "should" do and what they "should" accomplish to get to a "higher state" of being and living. It's exactly this sort of "progress" that describes the leaders that "excel" in life and "accomplish" "great" testaments of humanity. By the way, a pre-requisite to being a leader is being extro-verted.
For those that can't read between the lines, go to your local newstand and scan through all the headlines for a status on how far all this has gotten us, where we are, a good idea of where we're going, and who's leading us there.
I won't even get into what some speculate about publishers of those headlines. It's not even necessary. I've left all my statements relatively obscure in opinion intentionally, though it will be apparent to most readers. I ask only for you to consider the evidence and draw your own conclusions.
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
You seem to misunderstand the concept of "temperament". Temperament is an overall predisposition. That predisposition is not an iron law that cannot be broken. It is a tendency.
Saying temperament is in-born, or saying that a temperamental trait such as introversion is in-born, is asserting that a person has a life-long predispostion, not that he will always behave in accordance with that predisposition. Or put another way, it is asserting what a person's behavioral path-of-least-resistance is.
You also seem to misunderstand what is meant by "Introversion":
No, introverts need to learn how to be socially adept, which is quite a different thing from being an extrovert. Indeed, many extroverts need to learn to be socially adept -- just because you really like being around people doesn't mean you're good at socializing!
Saying introverts need to learn a little extroversion to get along in life is like saying that for a man to learn to fly he has to learn to flap his arms like birds flap their wings. While it is possible for a man to learn to fly, it's not by flapping his arms; while it's possible for an introvert to be socially adept, it's not by the same skills as the extrovert.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
intj too
/. mode
I'd never even heard of these classifications until this thread and the stuff I found from your link was really eye opening about myself.
here's some resonating snippets
"I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts"
me in
"Try not to be repetitive. It annoys them."
I get wound up if someone tells me an anecdote twice. Especially if they don't stop when I say "yeah, I know, you told me before"
"Expect debate. INTJs like to tear ideas apart and prove their worthiness. They will even argue a point they don't actually support for the sake of argument."
8) how many times.
"Do not be surprised at sarcasm."
I am the master
"Do not expect INTJs to actually care about how you view them. They already know that they are arrogant bastards with a morbid sense of humor. Telling them the obvious accomplishes nothing."
amen
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Because, as the reviewer mentioned, and others mentioned in their posts, it's difficult to decide which is the causal factor (a common issue in psychology, especially a "softer" non-reaction-time based branch). You can alsways say that people who we deem to be introverts do these things (I don't know, read many books, program Linux, whatever), but you can't say that their introversion pushed them into these things, or they are introverted because they are interested (or do) these things.
It's sort of tough to say the latter, though, because I do work in somewhat of an introverted environment (very quiet, typically all business) but there are some (relatively) extroverted people here despite the environment.
Basically, I'm not sure if I'd say introversion and extroversion are a hard-wired "temperament" rather than a culmination of factors of our personalities and environments. Because of the people that I've been around and certain other factors I consider myself a bit less introverted than I used to be. So I think introversion and extroversion are more of a classification, or a convenience that people can use to categorize the state's of peoples' lives.
It does seem like an interesting book, though.
it is not hooey. granted it is not perfect, and it suffers badly from the 'give everything a name' syndrome, but there is a lot of very good information in it. The principles that they are discovering are very real and important, just not completely understood. ie. the science is incomplete . Try reading it and sorting out what is real from the crap (there is a fair bit of both in there) I think that you will find it worth the time. (unless you couldn't care less about understanding reality)
As an introvert who hated parties, I eventually had a kind of epiphany: You only have to talk to one person, or at most a small "knot" of 3 or 4 people at a time. Did anybody else experience this?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
It has nothing to do with brain chemistry.
Its a choice, people make a choice to be introverted or extroverted.
You probably believe that homosexuality is ALSO a choice.
Believe me, introverts are the minority and they often suffer pretty heavily from it. Throughout youth and young adult-hood, the mode of social gatherings is a complete mystery to them.
It's difficult to understand why everyone is having so much fun at a party EXCEPT you. You try hard to act like your having fun, but you can't fake it to yourself. If it was a choice don't you think we would choose NOT to suffer.
Sometime when your not thouroughly satisified that you know everything, you may actually want to do some reading on psychology. You'll find that people do scientific research and have good proof for why some behaviors and characteristics seem based on "nature" and others are based more on "nurture".
Sometimes choice enters the equation, but most often we are almost complete products of our environment or ourselves. The "choices" we make are often made for us long before we ever ponder the question. Typically, when things aren't working out right, you know you actually overcame your biology and "chose" something against your nature.
For example, right now I'm assuming that you didn't "choose" to be an ignorant, arrogant ass-hole. Something in your nature or upbringing led you to this point. You can overcome the ignorance through LISTENING and READING beyond your knowledge. However, you may indeed ALWAYS be an ass-hole!!!!
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
If you want to mod this flame then please flame it REAL good :) This entire thread needs to get buried.
I don't mean the following to sound harsh, but this behavior is typical of introverts.
I don't mean the following to sound harsh, cause extroverts are good and righteous people, but this behavior is so typical of these... introverts.
The reason it annoys people is because you're not being extroverted, you're just seeking attention. An extrovert enjoys making *social* connections to people. You're not connecting with people; you're just hoping they will notice you as a substitute for a true connection.
The reason it annoys people is because you're not being extroverts, you can never be elite, you're just seeking attention, something extroverts don't need to do, it's beneath an extrovert. An extrovert enjoys making *social* connections to people, something the introvert can't understand, cause an introvert neither enjoys talking nor appreciates what social connections are. Hell if they know what being *social* is all about. You're not really connecting with people, that's an illusion; you're just hoping they will notice you, only extroverts are gifted with true connection.
A similar thing that introverts due (and geeks are notorious for) is replacing true conversation with being a walking encyclopia. Someone talks about the weather, and the geek goes on to explain strato cumulous clouds. It's not a conversation, it's a plea for attention. "Aren't I clever that I understand clouds".
And quite ironically, a plea for attention and a plea for conversation are not unsimilar. Quite often, drawing attention is one way of drawing conversation. What do you think talking about the weather is? LMAO. It's no better an excuse than talking about strato clouds. Talking about the weather really "connect" you to someone? Or does it open the door for more words?
"Aren't I clever that I understand clouds? I hope you don't mind that I feel insecure. We live with so many billions of people on the world and sometimes it seems like some of us have forgotten how to understand each other. Some people are really good at talking. I have to use an excuse to start a conversation. Just trying to let you know what mood I'm in, how I talk, maybe get an idea of how I see things. I'd really like to talk to you and get to know who you are though. How do you see those clouds? Do they look like elephants to you or something else?"
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
I wonder how much of this is influenced by the environment. For example, in Europe, towns are convenient for pedestrians. Buildings are close together, roads are narrow, parks and trains are common, and people can meet eachother on the street. Socializing is convenient there, so Europeans know there will be plenty of good social events. In USA, buildings are far apart, lawns are big, roads are wide and parks and trains are seldom. Thus pedestrians are trapped; you need a car to get around. Socializing is inconvenient here, so Americans look forward to when they can get home and do their own thing. If either group spends all their time on their own continent, they may come to think that their lifestyle is the only one.
I could fit into either description. For example, I can plow through a thick book in a few days and get annoyed when anyone interrupts me, but when I went to an anime convention last weekend I avoided anything I could do at home (watch anime, play games) and spent as much time as possible at social events, such as the opening ceremonies, cosplay runway, production panel, and Q&A. At that con, I felt energized by meeting people, and anxious outside of group events. I spend most of my free time alone on the web, but I often read about socially-reinforcing things like New-Urbanist neighbourhoods, and look forward to visiting one. I suspect most people have a mix of introvert and extrovert preferences, and I'd like to read about the environmental factors that cause each.
A fellow went and studied an authoritarian church. He found that as people stayed in longer, their personality types changed, all of them converging on one type. This church is also pretty destructive. Read it online here, it's by a guy named Flavil Yeakley about the Boston Church of Christ.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
'Nuff said.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Thinking categorically about everything is a normal way of dealing with the complexity of the universe. If you tried to deal with the world around you without sorting things according to various perceived charateristics you'd find it nearly impossible to do for very long, though this might be a good definition of the Zen state of Satori. The mistake is in expecting things or people to stay in their pigeonholes, or in assuming you have placed them in the right ones to begin with.
my housemate is a psychologist. She says: No one is a hundred percent introvert or extrovert. You can only look at your predominant moods. If you are exactly 50% then you are another kind of anomoly.
Pop psychology tries to make false dichotomies because it is easier for lay people to understand opposites. Unfortunately no single individual is 100% introvert or 100% extrovert. Most people are around +-25% of 50%.
I don't really understand the fascination with these topics. I mean, most people don't worry about the reproductive life of indigenous arctic wildlife, but they care about what a pshychologist might diagnose them as? I think Orwell warned against this kind of self-discovery through esoteric scientifc language. Why? Because you don't really can't understand yourself in those terms, you simply limit yourself to those limited concepts.
here
When I encounter an individual whose head is covered with bumps I can immediately categorize them as either a windows user who has been banging their head in frustration, or a Slashdot reader who has done likewise following the latest SCO Follies.
From what I've heard about Mr Limbaugh, it seems to me that people like Osama bin Laden are really just his Islamic counterpart.
Not interested in proper debate, evidence or good will to others. They just enjoy their own beliefs, and despise everything else.
If you bump into a person you knew 10 years ago, and suddenly the two of you are talking about everything, like you just saw each other yesterday, is that person an introvert or extrovert?
Or are they just a good old friend who is glad to see you?
It seems to me that with people like that, times and people change - but their friendships remain for a lifetime, even when separated by decades or continents...
Why most LAN parties suck:
1. All guys.
2. Not enough Beer, and the Pizza is late.
3. No place to dance (see #1).
4. Can't hear the music because the game keeps yelling 'Frag Bait!'
5. Keep getting smoked by dudes younger than you -or- Keep getting fragged by the old guys.
6. Spend too much time setting up equipment.
7. Not enough cool Maps / Mods / Skins / Games.
8. Somebody else has Equipment problems, repeat step 6...
9. Left your best game controller at home, end up using a microsoft 2 button mouse!
10. BSODs
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that whether you're introverted or extroverted is hard coded into your genes. Stop trying to pass the blame off onto something else. If it really were genetic, extroverted parents couldn't have introverted kids, and vice versa, yet somehow they do it anyway.
;) It just means being able to communicate well and interact well with people.
I've been an introvert most of my life. But I got sick of it (chicks don't dig guys who stare at their feet while mumbling), and decided to do something about it. I still tend towards the introverted side, but if I want to I can be an extrovert. And be perfectly comfortable doing it (read: it isn't just a facade).
As much as I hate to say it, introverts (like myself) just need to learn some social skills. Take a Dale Carnegie course. I did, and it's why I can be perfectly comfortable as an extrovert.
All an extrovert really is is someone who's comfortable around other people and knows how to interact with them, which is learned behavior. Being an extrovert doesn't mean being the class clown or a show off. It doesn't mean giving up computers and books. It doesn't mean pretending to like the "popular" stuff that you actually hate (like sports, the TV show Friends, etc.), nor does it mean pretending to hate the stuff that you like. It doesn't mean showing so much enthusiasm about everything that if you showed any more you'd explode. And it doesn't mean wearing more than the minimum required amount of flair
Yes, all the stupid, "Hi. I'm Joe Smith. What's your name? Where are you from?" stuff is annoying to all but the shallowest of the shallow, but it's part of being a good conversationalist. Part of being a good conversationalist is actually listening to what other people have to say with genuine interest (not necessarily in the subject, just in what they have to say about it) rather than just waiting for your turn to talk. And, despite what a lot of people think, being a good conversationalist does most certainly not mean doing the majority of talking (see the bit above about listening). People love to talk about themselves, and if you let them they will love you for it. However, that doesn't absolve you of trying to show interest (in other words, don't just look around the room while they're rambling on about the Dodgers or how they just replaced the clutch in their '67 Mustang, actually look them in the eye).
It can be hard, and the older you are the harder it becomes, but you can learn to have decent social skills. And if you can manage it, take a Dale Carnegie course.
At the very least, it will help you when looking for a job. Potential employers are more likely to hire someone if that person can communicate well with others.
</rant>
I guess I'm just trying to say that people should stop trying to pass the blame off onto someone/something else and take responsibility for the way they are. If, like me, you tend to be an introvert, you can learn to be perfectly comfortable talking to other people (even *gasp* GIRLS ) and be comfortable at non-geek social gatherings if you actually try to change.
>But I am a pervert. Is there a good book about >that for me?
I could reccomend some wonderful magazines.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
I'll be launching the Introvert Liberation Front shortly...
but you'll have to wear the T-shirts inside out...
A blabbering idiot, desperate for social interaction. Can you imagine such a warrior behaving in that fashion?
Yeah, get enough of them together and it's called a mob. Before modern weapons, I'm sure relationships were quite important for simple self defense. If you're in a gang, you're safe. If somthing happens to you, one of your friends will retaliate for you.
But the issue at hand is deeper than that. I predict we're going to see a lot of words devoted to why introverts are better than extroverts or vice versa. Here's why I say this.
My dad had a personality test that he liked to give people. It was designed for salespeople, so it was, of course, oversimplified. But this oversimplification allowed for the results to be easily discussed. It sought to catagorize whether a person decided to trust someone/buy an item based on which of the following four criteria or a combination thereof.
1. Process (i.e. the product being sold has twice the bus speed and ten times the memory of another product of the same price)
2. Social (i.e. Everyone is buying their computers from Dell. I should too.)
3. Relationship (i.e. My best friend is a computer geek and he swears by AMD. I'll get a computer with one of their processors. Or, 'this person is a business partner of my best friend. He must be a good guy.' )
4. Results ( i.e. The last time I bought a computer from Best Buy it overheated. This time I'll get one from CompUSA)
What was amazing was how, after the results were in everyone always started trying to justify their own characteristics and disparage those of other people.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Much as I am loath to directly contradict your own experience I think you should go and research what introversion actually is in this context.
It is not simply a dichotomy between
"hey everyone look at me" and "ooh, I don't feel safe, I'm going to my room for a bit"
It can be someone like me who enjoys being the centre of attention but only in short bursts because social contact is really tiring. I'm the guy that disappears for 20 minutes and then comes back full of beans.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
you're a mesovert.
Half extrovert.
Half introvert.
All mesovert.
Simple as that.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Of course, it dosen't follow that two parents with XsomthingX are unable to have a child that is ZsomthingelseZ.
(ignoring the whole 'nature vs. nurture' argument for a moment).
lets say for the sake of shits and giggles that in order to be an extrovert, the body has to produce Extrovertase.
Genes are kind of like assembly lines for proteins. "recessive genes" are kindof like broken steps in the assembly line. So if both of your parents give you bad instructions for a particular step in the assembly line, you'll be unable to perform that step.
Lets say you have two parents, Bill and Marge, who are introverts because they are unable to make 'extrovertase'. Bill has two good copies of the genes that perform steps 2 and 3, but got bad copies of the genes that perform step 1 from both his parents.
Marge has two good copies of the genes that perform steps 1 and 3, but has two bad copies of the genes that perform step #2
i.e.
Bill #1
123
---
EeE
EeE
( a capitol 'E' is a working copy of the gene. A lower case 'e' is a broken copy of the gene)
Jill #2
123
---
eEE
eEE
their child could then have at least one working copy of all the genes required to produce extrovertase.
eEE + EeE =
Child
123
---
eEE
EeE
So when you have traits based on more than one gene, it isn't true that two parents with the dominant trait are unable to have a child with the recessive trait or vice versa.
Personally, I agree that introversion and extroversion are not totally hard coded, but there are examples of people who are unable to act extroverted despite wanting to ( often, they're less resiliant emotionally than normal ) but after taking a drug like prozac find that they can lead an extroverted life. ( I don't use prozac, but a number of my friends are on SSRIs like Zoloft, basically the same thing.)
So I do believe it's fair to say that there's some kind of biological component to extroversion, even if predestination is overstating things. All psychology is also biological to some degree.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
(* looks at navel *)
Yep
> Rather, additional data or some
:-D
> interesting interpretation of facts
> presented is what is hoped for.
EXACTLY. You try and give a _little_ more info on the topic of conversation, and (depending on the age of the people you're talking to) you either get a ruder version of 'Fob Off', or the conversation dies.
I'm the official conversation-killer here.
I think the categories of "introvert" and "extrovert" are too broad to make many meaningful statements about. Certainly, they seem too broad to make a lot of general statements as to their causes. In other words, there are surely many multiple causes for what can appear as "introvertedness" or "extrovertedness". It is also unlikely that any of these explanations are either purely biological or purely environmental. Most likely, they are a mix of the two.
It might be useful to pick this book up and skim some chapters, but it does not seem like a book I would want to buy.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
There are two kinds of people in this world - those who like to divide people into two kinds, and those who think dividing people into two kinds is stupid!
I am anarch of all I survey.
You can always tell the geak, he's the little shit coorecting your grammer.
Fuckers.
Those subjects are mainly the complex "toys" I love (games, Perl, Lisp, the Orion project with other esoteric uses of atomic bombs, my favorite books, etc, etc).
When I learn/do something new about what I love in life, it is hard not to talk about it. I'm also a 100% certain that everyone else will also drool over that new stuff given a chance. Of course, mostly I'm wrong about the majority of people. [ :-( and :-) ]
You seem to have the same motivation. That is hardly gloating! (-: If you really care about "respect" from the mainstream, train thai boxing and lift weights (good ideas anyway). :-)
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
I was DEEPLY introverted for the first twelve years of my life. It was a great challenge to even get me to leave my own bedroom, because I was quite content to bury myself in a book or some project, and not be bothered by people.
:-)
Then, when I hit my teens, I turned inside-out. Now, I go stir-crazy if I stay in too long, and have to go out to public places. Now, I'm energized by being around people, and feel terrible if I miss a party.
If introversion is hard-wired, then what the heck happened to me? Maybe it was just teenage girl hormones.
If anybody's still reading this topic, here's my question: Is there a correlation between introversion and ticklishness? I suspect "yes."
Perhaps an informal poll would be helpful.
Do you consider yourself ticklish? Y/N
Do you consider yourself interoverted? Y/N
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
I see where the author of that comment said "I WONDER ..." but I didn't see that as just coming out and saying "They're all wrong, I'm right" (if that's what you were implying, as both his & your statements are just mere opinion).
Not to mention, I've just got to ask if you are really "offended"? If so....wow. How do you function in today's modern life, then? I mean, is every discussion an argument? The example that you've given is pretty badly thought out as well. I'm gay, have a Psych background, and have never been nor seen anyone get offended when these topics come up, even in mixed company. Besides, if a G/L/B/T person does overreact (as you assume they would in your example) then I see that as just as hypocritical and thougtless as your assuming that one answer is right (fact, undisputed) and nobody has any right to question it. Sounds like science would never have made it as far as it has if we all had taken your "don't get involved, take the answer you've been given, it's a dead issue and not worth further investigation" personality type. Sorry, that came out garbled, but I hope you see my point.
Anyone who's ever gone to a bar and not had more than one drink knows this.
You're obviously a rotten drunk then ;-)
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"First, alot of the ethiopeans live much happier stress free lives than us, they have problems with disease, but not every ethiopean is sick.
The problem never was with connecting to feel other peoples pain, I do it in movies still, the problem is people like to exploit your emotions. Alot of the movies and pictures you see of africa are designed to make you feel sorry for them and give money, most of the time the money does not even go to the people, just to the government.
The amount of selfishness and hatred in the World can overwhelm any nice person. The US Government didn't sign Kyoto because a lot of the American people think that France, UK, India, Taiwan, Hawaii, Alaska, Russia, China are "up there" connected to Canada. The US Government represents the American people, and the drug dealer in the ghetto gets the same vote as the wisest slashdotter. George Bush represents the people that dropped out of School when they were 16 unable to write English, who get minimum wage and must have a car to get to work, and he represents them well. These people don't post to Slashdot because they're working 3 jobs.
Thats just it, theres too many selfish mean cruel people in the world for any person who values their sanity to attempt to emotionally connect to everyone.
Once you get burned a few times, you learn that lesson.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I think that part of the secret (ie of a passionate debator getting along with those who see them as aggressive) lies in the tone taken and the manner of the conversation.
... this then becomes anti-socratic (to coin a phrase) as the discussion is one sided. If you look back at some of Plato's writing, he shows the socratic method working but the tone is always reasonable (IIRC, if not well reasoned, see eg http://plato.evansville.edu/texts/jowett/phaedrus1 2.htm) and open to the others point of view - that might of course be poor writing style.
...
:0)>
I had a few problems with this when I was first married. Previously I'd been in a house with all men (at Uni) where we enjoyed a good argument and didn't lose any sleep over it. My wife doesn't argue like that and an aggressive tone can quash her contribution
Reductio [ad absurdum] is usually used in these arguments - "if what you say is true then the world is a fudge brownie dipped in caramel, you ignorant clod". I think it's better to say something like "I'm not sure about that, wouldn't that mean the world wasn't made of rock". Then instead of going off in a huff because you're a know-it-all the other person has opportunity to make the brownie realisation or to state why their theory is still consistent in brownie-world or to say why that conclusion doesn't follow and clear up the premises made or
I suppose it's negotiation with a recognition that you may not be entirely correct
Sorry I can't spoonfeed you evidence to satisfy your skepticism. Try researching the footnotes of the Please Understand Me books, or check out a psychology of personality journal.
However, if you don't view psychology as a "scientific" discipline, which I suspect is the case, it won't help.
I wasn't aware that the size of my dick had anything to do with making communicative social connections at a gathering (not in a walking-dictionary way, more of a hi-how-are-you-my-name-is-Greg sort of way).
Why is it always about that, anyway?
Informatus Technologicus
seems to me, most enlightened people were introverts. Seems sitting still, in silence for long periods of time is a requirement for a spiritually awakened being. So, I like being an introvert thank you.
"I think this may be a chicken-and-the-egg scenario."
That's easy then. Eggs came before chickens, in fact before birds of any species.
Eyethengyew.
Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.