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It is dangerous to depend on C#, so we need to discourage its use.

Whoosh. You're utterly confused. C# is no biggie, to put it mildly. It's but one of the languages for which an implementation exists that happens to target the CLR and the .net framework. It's the platform that's the big deal, not a single language.

It's not dangerous to depend on C#, if anything it may be dangerous to depend on CLR or on the .net framework.

Free C# implementations do not permit users to run C# programs on free platforms. A free C# implementation is a C#-to-bytecode compiler. To be functional, it needs the framework and a runtime.

Writing programs in C# by itself is not bad. You could arrange to have a C# compiler that targets JVM, with proper library support. The latter is where the devil sits since it needs to implement quite a bit of CLR functionality, but it can be done. Mainsoft offers a system like that; no I'm not related to them in any way (not even as a user).

The Windows API has already been ported to *nix environments in the form of Mainwin. It isn't a big stretch to adapt it to OSX.

Actually you can do more on Mono then Java. and Mono can run Java as a function fully functioning JVM using IKVM.NET (http://ikvm.net/). In fact that Java based x86 emulator that was posted a few days ago is running on Mono with IVKM. Not so easy to go the other direction (http://grasshopper.mainsoft.com/).

IE for UNIX systems was buggy because 1. it was IE and 2. it was just the Windows version recompiled against MainWin, a commercial reimplementation of Win32 that functions in much the same way as Winelib.

I used DotNetNuke for a few years and recently switched away from it. I prefer applications that run cross platform particularly since I work in a enviroment that contains Linux, Unix, Windows and Mac. I hate to have to switch to different applications when I switch enviroments.

DotNetNuke does run on Linux using Mono, and in fact can be seen doing so at http://dev.mainsoft.com/. I ceratinaly think they have done an excellent job on the application. I used it since version 1.0 and the iBuySpy days. The reason I switched was due to the fact that most of the modules that I wanted to use were closed source (private assembly) and I had to be purchased through http://snowcovered.com./ I found this extremely annoying that only a few developers wished to contribute open source modules back to the project. I think this is it's biggest failing; the developers themselves.

Not only do those people look like zealots, I believe you are one of them too. Either you are new here or you are a zealot. Because...

You can't run .NET on linux
You can't run ASP.NET on linux
There's not an Integrated Development Environment (IDE) for .NET on linux
There's no commercial support for .NET on linux

So I am betting you want to bash Novell too because they support .NET?

You can add to the list of Languages C# & VB.Net. We at Mainsoft (see http://dev.mainsoft.com/) have a compiler that compiles the .Net bytecode to Java bytecode and supports the C# & VB.Net languages (.Net 1.1 version with Whidbey and Generics support in the working). We do have some limitations - the most notable is no support for unsafe code, but apart from that we support the whole package, unsigned types, structs, delegates, you name it.
And we could support in the same manner any language (e.g. IronPython) that is compiled to safe managed code.
As for the issue of interoperability with Java - subclassing, passing classes built in C# or VB.Net to Java and vice versa, the interoperability is complete. You can inherit in VB.Net from Java classes, Java classes can inherit from C# classes, you can use Java classes without any bridge or intermediate layer, etc.

• The Code Project
• Mainsoft Corporation
• Novell
• Zend
• Macromedia

I have an idea: I'm going to write a new .Net VM.... in Java!

I thought that there was something strange there too, especially the reference to their 'proprietary implementation of mscorlib in Java' on the Open Source section of their site.

http://dev.mainsoft.com/Default.aspx?tabid=39

Bizarre.

"Small Workgroup Configuration" means a Java-based hardware and software configuration supporting the execution of a Developer Application and limited to (a) Apache Tomcat excluding any other J2EE application servers and (b) single CPU (Central Processing Unit) computers excluding computers with multiple CPUs' and excluding cluster or grid of computers.

You can forget running on your personal multiple cpu development machine, let alone anywhere reasonable, unless you pay the price. It ain't free folks!

I went digging to find the price for deploying it on anything but what they consider a workgroup machine. You'll find that in What are the licensing terms for Grasshopper. Bring lots of money! At least MS gouges me only once.

I believe I'll stick to doing my own porting, thank ye!

No one will read it, but MainSoft has a product now that will assist .NET conversion to J2EE. Their Visual MainWin will compile VB.NET and C# for J2EE. I'm sure MS will be pissed at that one. I just hope they don't get killed by MS.

The leak came from a Microsoft partner, Mainsoft. The partner's access to Microsoft source was given long before Microsoft started their "shared source" program.

BetaNews has the details.

The source came through these people at some stage...

It's true, I saw a posting on our news server for this article that blames a partner, Mainsoft, for the leak.

From Visual MainWin 5.0.2 System Requirements for Linux:

"GCC 3.2 (Mainsoft fixed version)"

GPL demands them to give back the source, but they gave us the wrong source!

(Seriously, this means they developed for GCC and saw the Windows source. Are they "tainted" too?)

Anybody gonna find a job for these guys??? I'll hire 'em

Mainsoft has released a short statement which sounds like an admission that the code did indeed come from them.

Statement to the Media Regarding Microsoft Source Code Leak
Mainsoft has been a Microsoft partner since 1994, when we first entered a source code licensing agreement with Microsoft. Mainsoft takes Microsoft's and all our customers' security matters seriously, and we recognize the gravity of the situation.

We will cooperate fully with Microsoft and all authorities in their investigation

We are unable to issue any further statement or answer questions until we have more information.

From Mike Gullard, Chairman of the Board, Mainsoft Corporation

Or to save you about one second of your life, a clickable link.
http://www.mainsoft.com/corporate/exec_profiles.ht ml

pointing to a Linux machine likely to have been used by Mainsoft technology director Eyal Alaluf.

Eyal Alaluf! http://www.mainsoft.com/images/exec_profiles/Eyal. jpg

...If this is the case, Mainsoft was porting Windows applications to Linux as well as Unix.


Umm.. did we not click on our links today? The article linked to has a big, fat link to the MainWin product page which states, in part:

Visual MainWin is an enterprise-class application-porting platform that enables software developers to develop C++ applications on Windows using Visual Studio and deploy them on Unix and Linux. Visual MainWin is a complete cross-platform solution that speeds development and deployment. Developers will also appreciate Visual MainWin's J2EE Integration Package and industry-leading XML support. And it actually recompiles Windows source code with the Unix compilers to create native Unix applications.

Amusingly, Mainsoft's primary product seems to be Visual SourceSafe for UNIX.

This'll give them some promotion.

Mainsoft specialise in cross-platform development, enabling devlopers to develop using MS tools for deployment on *nix. Interestingly, for the conspiracy theorists, their previous mentions on /. date from 2000 and center around rumours that they were porting Office and IE to Linux. More news on the leak from Internetnews.com and The Register.

The code is said to be W2k-SP1.

EWeek is reporting that Mainsoft, a partner with Microsoft, is the source of the source code leak.

Odd... That page doesn't exist anymore, and suddenly (according to their press page), nothing happened in March 2003.

If that's true, it's fairly interesting. Mainsoft makes cross-platform products to run Windows apps on Unix (and Linux), and Elaya Alaluf is their VP of Technology. Link Circumstantial evidence that the leak originated at mainsoft. (they could have been hacked from outside, of course.)

its in the wild and no one can do anything about it.
most ppl are downloading it to have something to brag about. others are just peeking at it for the fun of it, like me. just a few grep's showed some interesting things...

the file actually is the zip to the spreading files.txt

whats a little bit weird is a linux coredump at private/security/msv_sspi/core

it appears someone named eyala from mainsoft used vim (VIM - Vi IMproved 5.6 (2000 Jan 16, compiled Mar 7 2000 12:18:07)) on a redhat x86 box under xfree86/kde on a w2k sp1 sourcefile, well until the box ran out of memory...

Or you could do what I did and buy a Qt programming book from orielly and just start using kdevelop. You can also develop your application in java using eclipse. A good place to start would also be using the tk libraties for perl, tkinter for python or tcl/tk. Oreilly has books on all of these.

Not really. Those solaris versions are just the windows version, built with MainWin -- sort of the commercial version of Wine.

Saying that Solaris-IE is Solaris software is like saying that Half-life is Linux software, because I can run it under Wine. I can, and do, but it's Windows software.

AFAIK, IE for MacOS is special in that it is not a port of IE for Windows, but instead it has been rewritten for the most part by a separate development team, offering good support for W3C recommendations (it should be at least on par with Mozilla/Gecko). The only things in common with its Window cousin would be the name and the logo.

OTOH, IE for Solaris and HP-UX were just ports using a proprietary equivalent of Winelib (by Mainsoft) providing a Win32 API on such systems.

Ever heard of Mainsoft? They have a great porting framework for porting windows programs to several unixes including linux. That's what our company uses and I'd have to say it's pretty good and it even handles MFC, ATL, and COM. It reads the Visual Studio .dsp files and essentially just rebuilds the project for linux (or solaris, hpux, etc).

>Yes. The windows API hasn't been ported to Linux, GDI hasn't been ported to Linux.

Actually, it depends on what you mean by ported. I thought that both Wind/U and Mainwin were commercial ports of the Win32 API to Unix. Also, there's Winelib which of course Microsoft would never use.

Since I'm Indian, I'll take the liberty of saying that there are cultural factors at work here as well. Indians LOVE free stuff. We'll waste gobs and gobs of time with useless junk trying to make it work as long as it's free. And linux is certainly far from being useless junk. Hopefully, this cultural factor will help in creating a balance between Microsoft and open source wares.

How? By using this. Think at Winelib, but proprietary.

Actually, you are correct about the mac version but the solaris version does load a win32 implementation just to run correctly.

And not portable

You could always recompile with the help of MainWin, but the performance is horrible. This is essentially what Microsoft uses to port IE to UNIX. That's why wxWindows and Qt are very appealing to me right now.

IE for Solaris is based on a partial port of win32 to solaris--with this you could theoretically port office for win32 to Solaris and therefore *nix.

You sure could. This is done with a tool called Visual Mainwin that actually contains bits of the NT source code in their and works in conjunction with MS other dev tools. There's a native Linux port of Visual Mainwin.

Also, I know for a fact that they developed a Linux version of Internet Explorer using this same toolkit. A while back there was an article on their web site talking about how all the Linux fans who work for Microsoft were so impressed over how Microsoft made Windows NT into a "better Unix than Unix". ROTFLMAO. I guess management decided they couldn't release it since it would be a great showcase for demonstrating how Microsoft "programmers" can't program themselves out of a wet paper bag.

Posting anonymously because of NDA/SPA/DMCA/whatever...

Microsoft has already ported everything from Internet Explorer to Windows Media Player to Microsoft Office. Only IE and WMP were ever made available to the public (for obvious reasons). These ports were done with the Mainwin kit from Mainsoft. Mainwin is similar to Winelib except that it uses real Microsoft source code (including all secret API's, also explains why IE and WMP are so bloated on UNIX) and runs on more platforms (Linux, SunOS, HP/UX, AIX, IRIX, Tru64).

How much Visual studio costs? lets be modest and say $500? now you know thats for only 1 platform, so if you want you app, for Unix for example - you need something like umm, this? (hint - the price is MUCH more then $1000).

So yes, if you're writing commercial applications for Windows - then you really don't need QT, and MS solution would be much cheaper.

However - if you want a multi platform solution (Linux, Solaris, IRIX, HP-UX, SCO, Mac OS X, Windows [95/98/ME/NT/2K/XP]) along with the best documents - then GTK will be thrown out by any serious developer and they'll go with QT.

Of course - IMHO QT should make what I call a "student" edition - but you'll have to write it to them. Maybe if lots of people will write to them they'll do something about it.

Try Visual MainWin from Mainsoft . This tool claims to make porting from Win32 to Unix (including Linux) very easy with little or no code change. It is said that M$ provided Windows code to Mainsoft to develop this tool. This tool is not open source though. Also, I haven't personally used this tool but will like to hear experiences of those who have.

- J

Try Visual MainWin from Mainsoft . This tool claims to make porting from Win32 to Unix (including Linux) very easy with little or no code change. It is said that M$ provided Windows code to Mainsoft to develop this tool. This tool is not open source though. Also, I haven't personally used this tool but will like to hear experiences of those who have.

- J

There is MainSoft, which has worked in the past with Microsoft to port the Win32 API to various *nix platforms.
<p>IIRC, IE for Solaris was created using this.
<p>Have a look at this <a href="http://www.mainsoft.com/flashdemo/mainsoft.s wf" target="_blank">flash intro</a>, hmm.. reminds me of those teleshopping ads...., funny but informative. For best effect open it to full screen.
<p>Also look at <a href="http://www.wxwindows.org/">WxWindows</a>. They say it supports network programming, well atleast it's free.
<p><b>Caveat: </b>Mainsoft is $$$_expensive_.

MainSoft MainWin, a Win32 layer for Linux based on Microsofts source code and developed by both MainSoft and Microsoft [who own and control a large chun of Mainsoft] already exists for Linux. Historically it was used to port IE to Solaris and HPUX.

Get a 30 day trial of Mainwin here. You can also download Microsoft Freecell for Linux on the same site.

Agree, however there was a port to some UNIX systems too (namely HP-UX & Solaris) that was done last year by a French company if I remember well, using MainWin, a library enabling developpers to port their Windows applications to several types of Unix.
Now as MainWin is available for Linux too, I guess it wouldn't be too hard for M$ to port IE to Linux too, if they wanted to !

According to reliable sources, Microsoft is beginning to (hire another company to) port some of its applications to Linux. Starting with Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player 6.3 (which is already ported to Sun Solaris).

Hmm. Has this been on slashdot before? Has anybody else heard this news? And why would Microsoft do this (if it's true)? What would they have to gain?

Certainly they do not want to assist in bringing a free OS to mainstream desktops, do they? Is there an evil plan behind this, or do they just need things to spend money on...

http://www.mainsoft.com/press/pr-Med iaAdv.html vs. http://ars.userfriendly.org/carto ons/?id=20000801

Every mention I've seen of a port says they're being done for UNIX, as in "UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group." Nowhere is Linux mentioned.

UNIX is, in the legal sense, a registered trademark of The Open Group.

It is also, the trademark standard nonwithstanding, a term used to refer to a large class of operating systems with a certain set of APIs; most if not all Linux distributions belong to this class of operating systems.

Mainsoft doesn't currently run on "UNIX" in the sense of "all members of that class of operating systems"; it doesn't even run on "UNIX" in the sense of "all OSes that have passed the Open Group test suite and can thus have the trademark used when referring to them" - under "IBM" they list "AIX 4.3.2" but make no mention of OS/390 (yes, OS/390 has passed the UNIX 95 test suite, as per this list of products that have passed that test suite).

However, they do have, in beta, a MainWin for Linux, as per this page, although it's past "the first quarter of 2000" and there's no sign of it having emerged from beta yet, so I don't know if the MainWin for Linux has stalled, or been killed, or what.

So, whilst it's probably not impossible for them to have ported MainWin, and thus not impossible for them to use it to port IE etc., whether it'll happen is unspecified (i.e., it has not been indicated that it will and there's no firm indication that it won't, either).

Paul Thurrott, the author of the Wininformant piece, askes a good question in as to why Mainsoft needs a copy of the WinNT source code if it's only porting IE.

I wouldn't consider that a particularly good question; the question was

One might wonder why Microsoft would need to supply the jealously guarded Windows source code to a company that was simply porting old versions of IE and WMP to other operating systems.

to which the answer is very simple: Mainsoft is not a company that is "simply porting old versions of IE and WMP to other operating systems".

Mainsoft is a company whose product is a library to implement the Win32 API atop other operating systems. The "MainWin: How It Works page on Mainsoft's Web site says

MainWin Architecture Overview

The MainWin libraries consist of two layers that sit directly on top of the UNIX operating system:

MainWin Win32 subsystem

The Win32 subsystem is a low-level implementation of the Windows 32-bit interface (Win32) on UNIX. This thin and efficient layer sits close to the low-level UNIX service layers such as POSIX, Xlib, and OpenGL. This layer provides Windows graphic services, window management, NT kernel (thread and synchronization objects), networking, and Windows GL (graphic layer) support.

Windows NT Services

The Windows NT Services consist of millions of lines of Windows NT4 source code which have been rehosted on UNIX. The MainWin Win32 layer has allowed us to port large portions of Windows NT run-time support with minimal code modifications. Having the actual Windows NT source code running on UNIX assures you of the highest level of Windows NT compatibility for your applications; and allows the same source code to run correctly on both UNIX and Windows.

(Note that Windows NT isn't just a kernel, it's a complete OS and window system/GUI; the stuff being rehosted is presumably large amounts of userland code.)

I'm also not sure why Thurrott thought the fact that Mainsoft had access to NT source code was some Deep Dark Secret that his informant had revealed to him, as per his comment

And they even mention having access to the Windows 2000/NT 4 source code, a tidbit that was also divulged to me in Israel.

given that there's a press release on Mainsoft's site, linked to by an item on Mainsoft's home page , that says

Sunnyvale, California August 27, 1998-Mainsoft, the market leader in extending Windows APIs to UNIX, announced that it has signed a new WISE agreement with Microsoft, giving Mainsoft access to Windows NT source code up to and including Windows NT version 5. The WISE Agreement provides Mainsoft with the sources necessary to continue development and support of MainWin through the next generation of its Windows on UNIX..

(I'm also not sure why he speaks of "old versions" of IE and WMP being ported; another item on Mainsoft's Web site says

Same-day release of Windows and UNIX versions of Internet Explorer 5.0

On March 18, 1999, Microsoft simultaneously released Windows and UNIX version of Internet Explorer 5.0 with Outlook Express. Rather than rewrite the code for the UNIX version, Microsoft chose to use MainWin to rehost the source code on UNIX. Using MainWin, Microsoft was able to ship the UNIX version of this complex and technically advanced release of Internet Explorer on the same day as the Windows version.

which would seem to imply that the version of IE 5 that was ported to UNIX was about as far from "old" as one could imagine; no, they may not have ported IE 5.5 yet, but, at the time they ported IE 5.0, it was as new as you can get.)

Methinks Thurrott should, before he speaks further on this topic, spend an hour or so browsing the Mainsoft Web site, at least if his goal is journalistic accuracy rather than journalistic excitement (you can often write far more exciting stories if you're not constrained by such boring mundane restrictions as a requirement to have what you say correspond, to some extent, to reality).

Paul Thurrott, the author of the Wininformant piece, askes a good question in as to why Mainsoft needs a copy of the WinNT source code if it's only porting IE.

I wouldn't consider that a particularly good question; the question was

One might wonder why Microsoft would need to supply the jealously guarded Windows source code to a company that was simply porting old versions of IE and WMP to other operating systems.

to which the answer is very simple: Mainsoft is not a company that is "simply porting old versions of IE and WMP to other operating systems".

Mainsoft is a company whose product is a library to implement the Win32 API atop other operating systems. The "MainWin: How It Works page on Mainsoft's Web site says

MainWin Architecture Overview

The MainWin libraries consist of two layers that sit directly on top of the UNIX operating system:

MainWin Win32 subsystem

The Win32 subsystem is a low-level implementation of the Windows 32-bit interface (Win32) on UNIX. This thin and efficient layer sits close to the low-level UNIX service layers such as POSIX, Xlib, and OpenGL. This layer provides Windows graphic services, window management, NT kernel (thread and synchronization objects), networking, and Windows GL (graphic layer) support.

Windows NT Services

The Windows NT Services consist of millions of lines of Windows NT4 source code which have been rehosted on UNIX. The MainWin Win32 layer has allowed us to port large portions of Windows NT run-time support with minimal code modifications. Having the actual Windows NT source code running on UNIX assures you of the highest level of Windows NT compatibility for your applications; and allows the same source code to run correctly on both UNIX and Windows.

(Note that Windows NT isn't just a kernel, it's a complete OS and window system/GUI; the stuff being rehosted is presumably large amounts of userland code.)

I'm also not sure why Thurrott thought the fact that Mainsoft had access to NT source code was some Deep Dark Secret that his informant had revealed to him, as per his comment

And they even mention having access to the Windows 2000/NT 4 source code, a tidbit that was also divulged to me in Israel.

given that there's a press release on Mainsoft's site, linked to by an item on Mainsoft's home page , that says

Sunnyvale, California August 27, 1998-Mainsoft, the market leader in extending Windows APIs to UNIX, announced that it has signed a new WISE agreement with Microsoft, giving Mainsoft access to Windows NT source code up to and including Windows NT version 5. The WISE Agreement provides Mainsoft with the sources necessary to continue development and support of MainWin through the next generation of its Windows on UNIX..

(I'm also not sure why he speaks of "old versions" of IE and WMP being ported; another item on Mainsoft's Web site says

Same-day release of Windows and UNIX versions of Internet Explorer 5.0

On March 18, 1999, Microsoft simultaneously released Windows and UNIX version of Internet Explorer 5.0 with Outlook Express. Rather than rewrite the code for the UNIX version, Microsoft chose to use MainWin to rehost the source code on UNIX. Using MainWin, Microsoft was able to ship the UNIX version of this complex and technically advanced release of Internet Explorer on the same day as the Windows version.

which would seem to imply that the version of IE 5 that was ported to UNIX was about as far from "old" as one could imagine; no, they may not have ported IE 5.5 yet, but, at the time they ported IE 5.0, it was as new as you can get.)

Methinks Thurrott should, before he speaks further on this topic, spend an hour or so browsing the Mainsoft Web site, at least if his goal is journalistic accuracy rather than journalistic excitement (you can often write far more exciting stories if you're not constrained by such boring mundane restrictions as a requirement to have what you say correspond, to some extent, to reality).