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Precisely how they did it is yet to be revealed by a truly independent investigation with full subpoena power. This timeline leaves no doubt that the official story is a crock of lies, and indicates a number of people who should be taken in for questioning. For a longer exposition including proof of controlled demolitions, details of disinformation tactics, and information on moving companies, a "factoring company" that specializes in "unconventional transactions worldwide" and deals with the Pentagon, the CIA and the FBI, and possible links to organized crime, see here.

Pre-9/11 Timeline

1946: July 22. Menachem Begin's Irgun Jewish terrorists dress as Arabs and bomb the King David Hotel, killing 92 people. The Irgun also plot to assassinate British foreign secretary Ernest Bevin; fortunately, this conspiracy is foiled by MI6.

1948: May 14. David Ben-Gurion declares the independence of the new Zionist State of Israel, born from deception and from the blood of victims of Jewish terrorism hours before the British Mandate is due to expire. It takes effect at midnight, Tel Aviv time. May 15. Eleven minutes after midnight, U.S. President Harry Truman officially recognises the proclaimed Jewish state in Palestine.

1954: July. An Israeli spy ring is arrested in Egypt. These Israeli secret service agents have been assigned to attack U.S. and British interests in Egypt. "Operation Susannah" is a typical example of false-flag terrorism in which the perpetrators pin the blame on another party - in this case, Egypt and "the Arabs" - for political gain. The operation is unsuccessful, the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon is forced to resign as a result of the scandal, and the incident becomes known as the Lavon Affair.

1967: June 8. Israel carries out a sustained air and naval attack on the USS Liberty for over an hour, employing torpedoes, machine guns and napalm rockets, even to the extent of machine-gunning lifeboats launched to save the most seriously wounded. 34 men are killed and more than 170 wounded.

1983: Christopher Bollyn marries

As Lapid volunteered on live television: "Hamas is an anti-Semitic terrorist organization and must be crushed."

Quoted as if that's a terribly hawkish thing to say?

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

^ Search that text for both "jew" and "zion" just to get you started. Here's just a random snippet -- if you think I'm quoting out of context, well... feel free to find me something better, that explains stuff like this away :/

In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder.

To counter these deeds, it is necessary that social mutual responsibility should prevail among the people. The enemy should be faced by the people as a single body which if one member of it should complain, the rest of the body would respond by feeling the same pains.

The way I read that:

The Jews kill women and children, so let's just fire rockets at Isreal without discrimination. Let's attack school buses even! It's just Jews, it's not bad when you do it to *them*. Some gibberish about the greedy, honourless Jew, then kinda implying they're murderers even when they don't murder, (so they can be murdered in response to that, I guess).

The solution: Let's be fascists ya'll. One for all, and all against the Jews.

Was that being polemic? Or am I just paying attention? You tell me. One thing is sure, that Charter surely obsesses about Islam, Zionism and Jews. So if they're an anti-semitic terrorist organization, doesn't seem crushing them like, uhh, the best alternative? What would you do instead, talk to them real nice?

None of this justifies actions by Israel that aren't okay; I'm just saying, wtf. If you're gonna pretend that other bunch of backwards assholes are just fine, then you have just as big a problem.

Glad you asked for a citation, but you did not say which part... Taking them one at a time:

Murder of all jews: Hamas charter Article 7, last paragraph and following Hadith.

Blames them for being behind wars and revolutions: Hamas charter Article 22 (which explicitly blames "the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there" on the Jews, as well as World War I and World War II).

Protocols of the Elders of Zion: Hamas charter article 32, which says: Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

You can get the full text of the Hamas charter at several of the References on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter but here are two of those just for your convenience:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Or were you talking about some other charter? There are several different charters around in Gaza and the West Bank; the Hamas one is the one for the group that had a plurality (though not majority) of the votes in the one election held so far and the group that is the government of Gaza at the moment.

The TSA's measures are worse than useless: they actually create a hazard, with long, slow-moving, densely-packed lines full of by-definition unscreened persons--lines that are about the ripest target for a bomb that you can find.

I've been thinking about that for years, but never said anything because I didn't want to give anyone any ideas.

People already have the idea and are making drama out of it. In Iain Banks' Transition, a Christian terrorist blows up a packed security line at the airport while guards up ahead are trying to take some nail clippers off a granny.

But while it's undefended right now, and you're at risk from it, it's not a threat the US needs to guard against, because no Islamists have tried it yet.

You can commit any act of terrorism in the US you like, it won't matter unless you're an Islamist, which is to say you have a beard and a funny hat. You can shoot up your local mall or campus, and that'll just be "a tragedy" and it will be forgotten by the next day, nobody will do anything about it. But if the TV reports a Mooslim even thought about blowing something up, the nation collectively loses its shit, so Something Gets Done, right there and then, no matter how hilariously improbable.

So, why don't Mooslims attack the US? Because most of them aren't terrorists, and the handful that are are either satisfied with what they've wrought so far (remember that Osama achieved his main goal of getting the US military out of Saudi Arabia, he only has one goal left - getting the US money out of Israel), or they're still scratching their heads as to how up the ante after 9/11. Tough job, and it will have to involve getting on a plane with a bomb, because that's what the US public are focused on and fear most.

Terrorists don't score points just on how many people they kill - they could just do a coordinated rampage in some shopping malls to top the 9/11 hiscore - but they score points on how spectacular and audacious their successful plots are. We're still fixated on exploding or hijacked transit, so that's what they have to aim for.

In Israel, however, the terrorists have lower standards. They'd get nationwide media coverage for killing any Israelis at all, so the murderous bastards are everywhere. Left the back door open? BOOM! Didn't eat your greens? BOOM! Terrorist hiding under the broccoli.

When you have a real threat, from groups who will accept any amount of death as a success, not just Bond movie plots, then you need to be far more focused. The US doesn't have a real threat, so it can keep deluding itself with security theater.

In this day and age, no one comes out and says they want to engage in genocide.

Hamas Charter, article 13.

What do you mean what is my argument?

You were arguing about things other than Macs. Neither iPhone, iPad nor iPods are Macs.

Would you have purchased exports and endorsed the Nazi party in Germany

Guess what? Jews did buy from German businesses before and during WWII. Jews financially supported the NAZIs. The Haavara (Transfer) Agreement was an agreement reached in 1933 between Jewish leaders in Europe and the NAZIs for Jews to emigrate to Palestine. Any Jew who wanted to move there would have the NAZIs buy their property then the proceeds of the sale would be deposited in a German bank with a branch of the bank in Palestine. Once there Jews could then withdraw money to buy German made goods. Not only that but Jewish terrorists groups like the Irgun and the Stern Group or Lehi offered to the NAZIs to fight against the British to help the NAZIs.

My comparison was Apple to Win7. In terms of this, Apple will never even come close to value per dollar price.

You compare a company to an OS? How about apples to apples or oranges to oranges? Now if you want to try that, compare OS X Snow Leopard to Windows 7. The cheapest Win7 is Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade at $120, an upgrade, whereas the Snow Leopard upgrade is $29. The basic Windows is $90 more. How about the price of the full versions, Windows 7 Home Premium cost $200 whereas Snow Leopard is $29. And a family pack? The Snow Leopard Family Pack, which allows it to be installed on up to 5 Macs, costs $49. How much does the Windows family pack cost? Oops, I don't see a family pack. So, to upgrade 5 PCs it wold cost $600.

The Apple OS is ugly, it can not be significantly altered for user enjoyment, and is much harder to learn than windows.

All that is your subjective judgment and is not based on fact. I and many others prefer the look of OS X. OS X has as many alteration options as Windows, but it's easier to decide which version to get. And many people find OS X easier to use than Windows as well.

I learned how to use a windows computer in about 5 minutes

I learned to use a Mac in 5 minutes.

and I can use thousands of alternate set up types and arrangements for my specific utility.

If I wanted to use thousands of alternate set up types I could do that with Macs.

I can be using several dozen large programs at once, switching between them and moving files in a fraction of a second, with insane productivity levels.

Oh really? Forget having dozens of programs, who needs that many large or small programs running at the same tyme, just having two or three Windows programs running would cause my Windows PCs to have a fit. If I ran too many applications they would crash.

I use my windows computer for everything from web browing, simulation programming and design, virtual prototyping, mathematical modeling, word processing, gaming, communication, finding my way around the countries roads, learning, and anything else I want to do with it. I have yet to find anything that I can't do on my computer that a Mac can

I have yet to find something I can not do on my Mac I could do on my Windows PCs. That is except go for days and weeks without suffering a crash, which I DO NOT want to happen.

Falcon

Did you read what I wrote before responding?

Not only did I read what you wrote, I even included the part you wrote, Honestly I have no problem with Israel relocating/segregating the Palestinians, I was replying to in my post.

As for the rest of your post, there wasn't the hatred you wrote of "The hatred they have for each other is ingrained from birth an cannot be resolved" was not there before or during WWII. It only cam with the founding of Israel. Israeli founders wanted to ethnic cleanse Israel. Don't believe me? Take the words of some of Israel's founders. Try for instance some of those quoted by Tikkun, a Jewish group.

"Shlomo Lavie, a well-known leader of the Israeli Labor Party, the Mapai, declared that the 'transfer of Arabs out of the country in my eyes is one of the most just, moral, and correct things that can be done.'"

Or another Mapai leader, Avraham Katznelson, who "felt that nothing was 'more moral, from the viewpoint of universal human ethics, than the emptying of the Jewish state of the Arabs and their transfer elsewhere.... This requires ... force.'"

Or take the Israeli massacres against Palestinians. Irgun and Lehi, who the British in the British Mandate called terrorists. No less than Ariel Sharon led Israeli troops in the massacre in the West Bank village of Qibya. Hell Lehi even offered to work with the NAZIs. Wiki and Google, that wiki article is the first Google result, provides brief lists of Israeli massacres against Palestinians.

Now tell me again how separation will end all the problems in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and that Israeli expansionism and ethnic cleansing aren't part of the problem.

Falcon

Hamas has its own particular ideology and I want to make it clear I don't support their methods.

But to say that their basis for attacking Israel is merely its existence is a distortion.

Absolute lies. Hamas is an Islamic supremacist organization which demands the supremacy of Islam over Jews (and Christians, Hindus, etc). Go and read the Hamas charter for Hamas' own words. Here are some interesting bits.

From the preamble:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it

Article 1:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam.

Article 6:

It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine,

Article 7:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

Article 8:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Article 11:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

Article 13:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

OR, you could, if you wanted to, but you dont have to (and most certainly wont because it would just be too easy to do), go with the reasoning of Osama Bin laden.

Do you speak Arabic, by any chance? Osama is well spoken. I'm Egyptian, so speak what I guess is best described as a different dialect, but am always left impressed by his Arabic (and I'm your typical overeducated PhD type) and frustrated by the fact that this is completely lost on the West.

Try looking for a good translation, Google popped this up.

(You'll quickly see he doesn't really give a damn about the Saudi government.)

As for your claim that Israelis are much more likelyu to be killed by other Israelis, again you are mistaken. Intent matters.

I wasn't talking about Palestinian road fatalities, but internecine fighting. That is, Palestinians shooting at each other in the streets (something Israelis and most civilised nations' population don't do to each other).

Hmmm, well I was talking about routine homicide. For example, a quick google search pulls about an article about 2004: Yet Israel's overall death rate from crime and war in the same period [2004] was lower. It was 4.3 deaths per 100,000 population. This reflected 174 murders and 122 intifada deaths. (If 41 Israeli soldiers' deaths in the intifada are excluded, the resultant rate was 3.7 killings per 100,000 population. The U.S. homicide rate was almost 50 percent higher than this Israel all-civilian rate.)

Not at all - my point was to compare the psychological effects of two similar events on the civilian population of a city in order to explain why certain poll results may have occurred. The fact that any civilians died is tragic in both cases.

On the other hand (and this was not my point, but you did bring up the issue of using percentage rates) why would comparing percentage death rates necessarily be invalid? This is exactly what serious researchers do when looking at mortality rates: for 2005 figures, Israel suffered 0.8 deaths per 100,000 population due to terrorism, whilst in the Palestinian Territories the Israeli military killed 11.2 people per 100,000 population. In Gaza the kill rate was 23.5 per 100,000 residents. source

Obviously there is a lot more to study beyond the raw figures, but that doesn't invalidate the data. Your suggestion of using absolute numbers for mortality has obvious problems in that it doesn't measure the impact of mortality on the population as a whole.

It is silly to use this "declaration" word as a standard when the whole point of it being in Article I was to make sure the President consults with Congress on major military action, not some need for someone outside of the country to hear the actual word "declaration." Presidents since Thomas Jefferson have used military police powers without an actual declaration, and I'd think Jefferson in particular would know a little about what presidential power entails.

The great irony is, you nit-picker, is that the current detainees would have less rights in a declared war, since they could be held indefinitely until the war is over. This entirely flies in the face of the point of Geneva, being that the only ones who are supposed to get its protections are those who follow it(as an incentive to sign the Accords and live up to them), unlike al Qaeda. Instead, al Qaeda, flouting all the rules of warfare, get treated better than a POW would have been, thanks to an overreaching SCOTUS.

Oh by the way, Osama bin Laden declared war on the US. Is that good enough, or would you like to employ some other jailhouse law to hamstring the USA from defending itself? I'm beginning to think this isn't some concern for civil liberties, but actual bad faith on your part.

I would like to know, should US soldiers be Mirandizing al Qaeda in Baghdad? Are we really going to this level of absurdity? War not cops and robbers for crissakes!

The real story, at least to me, is that the DOJ has demonstrably been involved in a systematic effort to rewrite history.

It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967, because those positions were undesirable and artificial. After all, they were just the places where the soldiers of each side happened to be on the day the fighting stopped in 1948. They were just armistice lines. That's why we didn't demand that the Israelis return to them.

You must work for Clinton campaign

Actually no, I don't work for the Clinton campaign.

But in any case, not all refugees will choose to return

UNRWA says 4,448,429 refugees.

Israel has a population of 5.4 million Jews and 1.5 million Arabs from http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html

This page says 80% would opt to return, which means they would be in a majority in a very short time. Arab politicians have called this the 'winning card' that will cause Israel to 'cease to exist'.

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm
The refugees have a sincere tie to their land and homes. Many have kept the keys to their houses, houses that no longer exist. Many certainly were evicted unjustly, or left in innocence to protect their families from war and from subjection to unknown alien rule. Most refugees who are still alive were quite young in 1948. Many others are descendants who never saw Palestine. Over 80% of the refugees polled in Lebanon, as well as those polled recently by IPCRI and other organizations in the West Bank and Gaza, insisted that they would want to return to Israel, even though the place where they lived no longer exists, and their fields may be home to a housing project or an office building.

Returning the refugees to Israel would put an end to Jewish self-determination, as noted by Palestinian as well as Israeli sources. The large numbers of refugees, together with the much higher birth-rate of the Arab population as opposed to Jews, would soon create an Arab majority. In a seminar held at Al-Najah University under the auspices of the Palestine National Authority, Sakher Habash noted: ... our principles in "Fateh" has always been to liberate all our Palestinian national land and to set up a democratic state on it. This clearly demonstrates that there has been no room for the 242, 194 and 181 resolutions in our literature. However, we to our surprise, have to begin rethinking them. In our literature, all resolutions which deny the Palestinians their right in their homeland are false and completely rejected. This is a principle each of us abides by until we realize our return, I personally hold that we have to stick to the principle, and at the same time we must attempt to arrive at periodic solutions as a step toward attaining the principle viz. Tactic flexibility versus principle adamancy. This, I believe, is the closest approach to the refugees issue. Fateh stance which should be adhered to in the final solution negotiations calls for abiding by the international resolutions.

To us, the refugees issue is the winning card which means the end of the Israeli state.

Not only the Fatah, but Arab leaders and media have unabashedly admitted that the refugee issue and right of return are being used as a means to destroy Israel. Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser told an interviewer on September 1, 1961: "If the refugees return to Israel, Israel will cease to exist."

A large chunk of refugees are denied citizenship by their host Arab governments. There's a fair chance that these governments would kick them out to Israel if the right of return were allowed. And you don't need a majority to take over the government. Almost all Arab countries are actually run by an minority, anti democratic party. The Mid East web page actually points out that the numbers of refugees have grown much faster than the Palestinian birth rate, partly by marriage to citizens of the host countries who become 'refugees' too. And so do their kids. Arab state media will try to get as many of their people as possible into Israel because that will destroy it.

Basically the Arab leaders and UNRWA have colluded to turn Arab 'refugees', most of whom have never lived in I

How about a peace settlement? You stay on your side of the fence drawn in 1967, we'll stay on our side. Sounds fair to me.

Sounds fair to me to, but it will never happen. Go read the Hamas charter. Hamas refuses negotiations, treaties, and refuses to live in peace with jews under all circumstances.

You cannot reason with Hamas. It is kill or be killed.

However, bashing it through code-words, questioning the very right of its people to exist, echoing false claims about history? Those are not reasonable.

And those are not things that I have done. I've used no "code words"; Zionism is the proper name for the political movement and ideology in question. I've certainly not questioned any people's right to exist, I've just questioned political actions. And while I'm not a historical expert, it's clear that my understanding of the history involved covers facts that yours does not.

Hatred of Israel is indeed based in antisemitism.

So Orthodox Jews who are opposed to the existance of a Jewish nation (an opinion I do not share) are anti-Semetic?

Lay off the ad hominem fallacies.

You are forgetting (of course) the real history: that the Jews there were indiginous natives or settlers who came there and bought land.

You are (conveniently) starting the story well in the middle. It's as if one were to argue that Native Americans who resisted settlers had no claim, since the settlers had after all bought land - ignoring that the claims of those from whom they bought the land were based on theft.

Any meaningful discussion of the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict must start with the British Mandate and the Balfour Declaration, and the British-backed immigration of Jewish settlers into the area in the 1920s and 1930s.

One has to have a certain degree of antisemitism to be "sad" that Israel even exists.

One has to be lacking a certain degree of common sense to think that the events in that region from 1917 to today have proceeded in the best imaginable fashion, and not to lament the failure of better alternatives, based on cooperation rather than colonialism.

Before the Balfour Declaration, Jews and Arabs lived side by side in a state of general tolerance; imagine if radicals in the Zionist movement and the British government hadn't screwed that up, if a small Jewish homeland had been allowed to peacefully develop.

Imagine if Pinsker had gained more support for founding a Jewish homeland in Argentina or some other Western nation, by peacefully negotiating for land; certainly that would have let to a better situation than today's daily violence.

Imagine if, after WWII, the Jewish people who had contributed so much to European culture and had been so horribly persecuted in the Nazi holocaust, had been given in reparation land in Germany to found a nation.

One can imagine dozens of alternatives to the current situation of a failed state propped up by America, a poisonous political sitation that is corroding the great legacy of Jewish culture.

If one can look at the current situation and not be sad, then one is insane.

"Unlike in Darfur, where the world disapproves but is too lazy/incapable of fixing the problem, in Israel not only are we not trying to stop the war, we're FACILITATING it."

To make clear the actual genocide problem (and you were blaming the VICTIMS!), here are some quotes from the current Palestinian government and their actual charter: "Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" [At least they do not hide their hatred behind the code word "Zionists"]..."The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees.". The charter includes many other references "evil" Jews and the necessecity to eliminate and/or subjugate them.

In contrast, the government of Israel supports "there should be an independent viable Palestinian state". Also seen are the statements "In that case we will have to move forward, even without a Palestinian partner, in order to separate from the Palestinians, to pull out from areas in the West Bank"..... This is in distinct contrast with the extreme hardline imperialism advocated by Hamas.

let the one chance at peace in Israel slip away.

Actually you have to hand to Bush the failure of the last and best chance of peace in Israel slip away. You may be thinking of Camp Davis, as most probably are, when the Palestinians wouldn't negotiate. However there almost was an agreement after that that most have not heard of. Negotiations took place where most of both Israel's and Palestinian positions were accounted for and an agreement almost was made in a little place in Egypt called Taba. These talks were in December and January 2001. Bush came into office before the talks ended. Of course as Bush campaigned with the position of isolationism and no foreign adventures or nation building he couldn't step forward and participate in the negotiations.

Do you fail to see that there are separate groups considered terrorist from each point of view? Obviously we are not going to blacklist those who we agree with.

One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Hezbollah may be concerned a terrorist org but to many Palestinians the party stands for freedom. That's why they won the elections. Jews, er Zionists, were terrorists in Palestine before Palestinians were. Zionists were fighting the against the British Mandate in Palestine up to Israelis independence in 1948. The Palestinians are now using the same tactics as Zionists did then.

Your true colors come out when you say:

"but we're denying right-of-return rights to Palestinian refugees". So, now we have 15 million Palestinians who are stateless...

So you propose that 15million Palestianians should go to Israel? Not even the most radical left wing thinker believes this. The only people who believe this are the people who don't think Israel should exist (along with many other irrational ultra-left appeasment and appologist, racist views).

Some facts: Around 800,000 Arabs were driven or fled out of Israel when Arab states attacked Israel after it was founded. http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm I have no idea how you came up with 15million but I am guessing you are referring to the size of third generation Palestinians who are refused citizanship by their friendly and concerned Arab "brothers" (in order to fight a proxy war against Israel - if you don't treat a wound it will fester slowly).

In that regard, I too am a refugee as are millions of people in Europe who were displaced in the first and second world wars. Do we get to "go back too"? The "right of return" is a subtle way of denying Israel's right to exist and in reality will at a most will require a symbolic monetary comensation from Israel to the Palestinians along with Iraq and other Arab countries proving the same compensation for the Jews where were expelled from those countries around the same time.

You must have done really well in your course to get your facts so right. Pinch of salt to what you say my friend...

This speech on the eve of war is chock full of lies.

But Monicagate wasn't about the lies, it was about the sex, which is why Bush *was* impeached for dating a male prostitute who declares himself a "top".

You mean he got away with that, too? WTF is going on around here?

No; there is a small stretch of beachfront in the far southeast corner.

http://www.mideastweb.org/miraqd.htm

Your probably right, N Korea probably does really have Nukes. When I was sent to SK in 1994 we believed they had them and they declared they were working on them.

But the truth is, we don't know if they do or not. It isn't as if they have advertised the fact like we used to in the Nevada desert. It is just as likely that they are taking a defensive posture to prevent future agression by the US. It isn't as if they haven't played the Nuke card before.

As for Iraq...
My "critical propaganda filter" led me to believe Saddam was hiding something in pre-war Iraq. His behavior was pretty damn shady in my opinion. I don't know what he was hiding , but he was trying to hide something - or at least lead people to believe he was.

I definately didn't "know darn well that Iraq didn't have any WMD" - how you knew they absolutely didn't is beyond me. You may have suspected they didn't - but KNEW - that seems unlikely. Just as NK actual progress on building nukes hasn't been well known by anyone. Again, people have suspected progress - but there is a big difference between suspecting and knowing.

Hence why we need a president who can actually see into the future. Then we actually will KNOW and not just suspect.

BTW: I haven't voted for Bush. However, nor do I envy his position of being the president after 9/11. That event had so many foriegn policy implications that I wouldn't wish the job of dealing with it on anyone.

You *do* realize that there has never been a "Palestine" as a nation-state either. That land was once part of the Ottoman Empire, which was then given in a mandate to the British after the Ottoman Empire was dismantled under the League of Nations post-WWI. The 1948 UN Partition of Palestine did however, set aside land for a Palestinian homeland. If you look at maps of the partition scheme and post 1948 war maps, you'd notice that Arab nations around Israel managed to swallow up large amounts of land set aside for the Palestianians. Not a single nation, wanted the Palestinian nation there. For example, Trans-Jordan wanted the entirety of Palestine to itself, which is also what I believe Egypt and Syria wanted. Israel, naturally, didn't want to be so squished between gun implacements.

Here's a map of the UN plan and here's one post war of independence. Notice how the area known as the West Bank, which was gifted to the Palestinians, isn't Israel... nor Palestinian...

Both are cultures not of hate, but cultures where children are born of fire. Political leaders on both sides tend to be war heros, who still remember being shot at by the other side.

By March 2003, Iraq was destroying its Al-Samoud II missiles, the ones that if you stripped of all payloads somehow went slightly further than the UN sanctions allowed. Everybody knew it wasnt a big deal, a technicality really, as empty missiles would not be a threat and they'd never launch them empty anyway, but Iraq was getting rid of them anyway, they saw the threat of invasion looming.

Quickly skimming the UNMOVIC and IAEA inspections reports, I don't see any UN assertions that there were WMDs. In fact, the conclusion states" "we have to date found no evidence that Iraq has revived its nuclear weapons programme since the elimination of the programme in the 1990s."

If anyone in this thread wants to read up on the Arab-Israeli conflict, check out this timeline. It's pretty even-handed in my opinion, but you can make up your own mind.

So, you've never heard of The School of the Americas, which has trained practically every South American terrorist group ever? Quote:

Since 1946, the training center, often called the school of the assassins, has produced ten dictators and hundreds of others connected with human rights violations, drug trafficking and organized crime.

OK, you maybe missed that one, but you must be aware of the Taliban being created by the US? The US being primary funding of Northern Ireland terrorism? Documented evidence about the CIA's terrorist/drugs links?

Stick your head in the sand if you want...

And how did the USA destroy the governments in the Middle East?

Go and read some history

The last time I checked there was a well known terrorist group in Northern Iraq that the USA uprooted. Ansar Al Islam, or some such nonsense.

Yes, and said terrorist group was an enemy of Saddams, and he had tried to destroy them many times. What's your point? Every country has some sort of terrorist precence, government supported or not. Does that justify invasion?

The USA does not tell you what religion to follow; you are free to follow any religion you like, including no religion at all. It is your choice.

Any religion, provided it's Christianity. Have you ever listened to a Bush speach? Oh, and by the way, gimmie a shout when you get a president that isn't a white male Christian. Ain't ever gonna happen.

Yeah, I would believe anything a Pakistani Diplomat says, especially since they are the ones who put the Taliban in power! Perhaps you should learn to not believe everything you read.

It's well documented all over, but I can understand your sceptism.

who have a jealousy of America so embedded into their little minds they fail to grasp the realities of the large world.

People do not fly planes into buildings because of jealosy. Nor is it because of "hating freedom", as Bush puts it. If that were the case, the US wouldn't be the only target. Where are Europes Al Qaida's terrorist attacks? Where are Canadas? Where are Oz/NZ? And a dozen other countries that have a similar way of life to the US?

Go and read some history.

If there was no United States, the world would be a much worse place, care to argue that based on your in depth understanding of world history?

Sure, but the same can be said for any superpower. Chaos theory means we'll never know.

But when you are the most powerful nation the world has ever seen, you have a responsibilty to make the world into a better place. No country gives more foreign aid than America.

No, no responsibity is there and none is taken. US "aid" isn't aid, it's loans. Big difference. These loans feck up the economy for years, and usually get squandered by corrupt officials in the first place.

No country so readily commits the lives of their own Armed Forces to aid those oppressed peoples of the world.

Provided there is profit to be had, then yes. If there is no profit, you can remain oppressed, and the US will happilly sell your dictator weapons.

No country takes in as many immigrants as America does.

That is so far from true it's unbelievable. Sure, the US is (admirally) built on imigration, but you have some of the strictest controls anywhere in the world now. European countries take in far more imigrants/refugees. It's a major political issue over here at the moment.

Don't insult America by taking a moral high ground that you so clearly do not have.

I never took a high-ground. I just pointed out that the US high-ground is a nationalistic delusion. Read some history please. The US doesn't always save the day, that's just Hollywood.

The Balfour Declaration by not means gave Israel any sort of territorial rights - it was merely a letter written by the British Foreign secretary, specifying that the British government would support the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. (link)
This would be similar to Jack Straw (the current British FS) writing a letter to some "pro-Chilean" figure, stating that the British government would support the establishment of a Chilean nation in Argentina.

The Israelis, in fact, initiated the 6-Day war. It is true that there were troop build-ups on both sides and that there was a great deal of threatening from all parties, but it was the Israelis that started the fighting. (link)
It is interesting to note that as part of the Israeli's initial attack, they assaulted a clearly marked American recon ship (USS Liberty) from the air - disabling it completely with several phases of attacks, there is also evidence that the Israelis shot down US planes that were deployed to the assitance of the Liberty. (link1 link2 link3).
Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights were occupied by Israel during the 6-Day war (There were other pieces of land occupied during the war that were later returned).

The reason that it is accurately refered to as "Occupation" is that it precisely describes the situation (Similarly in concept to how the US is now occupying Iraq). The legal situation is that Israel has been mandated to return to its pre-1967 borders by a UN Security Council Resolution (242) and has ignored the international community's pressure along with several other Security Council Resolutions. Therefore, it is illegally occupying these territories .

What are these "Rules of War" that you are referring to? We've come a long way since the times when people could just take land from eachother just because they had a bigger army.

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

I suppose you'd like to simply ignore the fact that Iraq did, in fact, expel weapon inspectors on 30-Oct-1997 and 2-Nov-1997. UNSCOM inspectors of US nationality were expelled and/or refused entry on those dates. (Sources: 1, 2

Yes, Butler ordered the teams to leave after this point, but Iraq did indeed block the inspectors.

They probably don't... but these sites do:

http://www.mideastweb.org/palmaps.htm
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/pal_maps.htm
http://www.stanford.edu/~bgiddens/maps.htm

Maybe that will help if you're honest with your question and really wanted to know.

Didn't see your comment, Anonymous Coward, until recently. You were under my threshhold. Before you spout, check some facts.

Here's an enlightening timeline of events and documents relating to Palestine and Zionism over the past century. It has shown a bit of the historical validity of a Jewish homeland. However, it is clear that the intentions of these early planners was to create a place for Jews and other downtrodden people in Palestine, but not for the Jewish homeland to become Palestine. In post-British colonial Palestine, it seems the Jews and Arabs had much more in common: independence from the major world powers at the time of WWI (Britain, Turkey, France).