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I don't know about the state per se, but the PE Exam (by which you become a licensed Professional Engineer) has options for electronics/computer/software engineers: http://ncees.org/engineering/p... Every common engineering field (and several uncommon fields) are represented.

Or...OR...you can stop being an asshole. To be an engineer all you need is an engineering degree from an accredited university. Of course, there's still things like the PE exam, but there's nothing wrong with holding the title 'Engineer' prior to passing your PE. I know plenty of mechanical, electrical, and civil engineers who haven't and probably won't take their PE.

And if you weren't such a hateful little shit stuck in your own deluded world, you would know that NCEES now has PE exams for Software Engineers . Software Engineering is a proper field of Engineering, even if you're still stuck in the past.

That is unless you hold a PE in Software Engineering:

http://ncees.org/about-ncees/n...

There is actually a PE in software, since 2013:

https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-conte...

Actually, I looke at the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) test. It's used for patent agents, among other things.

I really didn't want to require an entire engineering career of WiFi driver hackers, just enough that they would have a good chance of understanding the requirements.

We used to have a "First Radiotelephone" license for broadcast chief engineers. And a "Third Radiotelephone" for DJs. This seems to be what has replaced the "First Radiotelephone".

There should be a professional "Software Engineering" (or call it something else if the Engineers get upset about the term) program for those that want to actually build code.

The engineering community seems to be accepting it. After talking with some colleagues about software engineering being a discipline that potentially needs certification, I found out you can actually be a PE (Professional Engineer) in Software Engineering now, in addition to traditional PEs in Mechanical, Electrical, etc. Link on NCEES website.. They just started this last year basically!

I'm interested in pursuing it potentially, I wonder how you get it if you normally need to study under a PE for x years but there are none at first? I guess there's a grandfather in period for those with experience, even though it wasn't under a PE. I do not know anyone with a PE Software Engineering yet though. Anyone out there taken the exam? What do you need to apply, how hard is it, what does it emphasize, etc.? I should probably contact the board myself and ask. My guess is that a cert like this will be a big thing in a few years. Some big companies will want PEs as the managers. Maybe government contracts will require a PE in charge.

If this is the case, then CompSci majors (or anyone really) will be able to take the FE exam and become Engineer-in-Training like other disciplines, and this will separate the professionals from the academics. Once the FE for Software becomes popular, I imagine Bachelor of Software Engineering will start popping up to start preparing student for the FE exam, much like mechanical, electrical, etc., today.

Millions of children teach themselves how to create bridges and towers with legos and logs, but that fact doesn't devalue structural engineers, does it? Also, the NCEES deems software engineers as legitimate engineers. I'll take their word over yours any day.

Being able to write a program is not the same as software engineering.

Are you certified as an engineer?

You mean to say licensed. Regarding terms, "license" means a government grant for one to perform work. "Certified" means have passed qualifications usually by a non-profit non-legislative body. i.e. doctors need a license to practice, certificate from Microsoft shows you are knowledgable about a specific software (ok there are many pros and cons on this one). Regarding "Engineer" you need to be licensed to practice engineering. In fact you can't call yourself an engineer unless you are licensed. But then, i.e. Silicon Valley, who cares as there's lots of engineers that do engineering. Except for civil engineering, they are very critical and demanding on being licensed.

One thing about being licensed if you screw up, people can contact Dept of Consumer Affairs and make a fuss. They also can find out where you are so before you pound that PE stamp on those drawings, you are probably going to be sure it is all been performed above minimum competency.

But it all comes down to what can you do? Are you competent? Do you know your stuff? Can you address problems to management or the customer so it doesn't end up as surprise disaster? Or are you simply stuck in a Dilbert situation which sounds like many of the programmers were in this healthcare.gov website.

Are you certified as an engineer? Until we decide to start making the term mean something, it's empty talk. I'm gearing up to take the certification myself next year.

I have a ti-36 solar...

Yeah, but he's used to RPN so he's pretty much stuck with HP models. ...although he doesn't say that. Which makes this "Ask Slashdot" as pointless as any other "Ask Slashdot".

Asking which is "best" is never a good question.

But the list of approved calculators that he mentioned does include two HP models: HP 33s and HP 35s. Both support RPN, and while certainly more expensive than the TI-36X Pro the HP 35s is probably cheap enough for the submitter's needs.

Seconded.... I had a TI-85 in HS, an HP48GX in college engineering, then a few years ago when I took the FE/EIT exam, the prep guide forums recommended the Casio

http://www.amazon.com/Casio-Advanced-Scientific-Calculator-Textbook/dp/B000A3IAHM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384664856&sr=8-1&keywords=casio+calculator+scientific

Sad that I haven't really had a chance to use any decent calculators in the "real world" outside of engineering examinations, though.

Incidentally, the NCEES FE reference guide is an awesome cheat-sheet for engineering math, physics, chemistry, etc.
http://cbt.ncees.org/get-the-new-fe-reference-handbook-for-cbt/
Which is awesome to carry around on your kindle or whatever "just in case"

The official list is here.

Check out the NCEES Calculator Policy.

I had a non-programmable calculator in college but it died and I didn't need a calculator at work. I bought a TI-30Xa for when I took the state professional engineering exam. I am still using this calculator as an engineering professor. Plenty of capability.

One of the bigger problems with accreditation is the scope of examination needed to determine suitability for official certification. If I were to certify someone as an electrical engineer without any knowledge of what their education was, I'd want to spend a full week working one-on-one with them to fully evaluate their knowledge and skills. This is why universities get accreditation from a group like ABET. Now you can tell graduates to have several years of work experience, take the FE and PE exams, and be able to tell with a reasonable amount of certainty whether or not the individual is worthy to be called a Professional Engineer with a good efficiency in the process (vs. the aforementioned one-on-one situation). Does anyone have any better ideas for large-scale, education-irrelevant accreditation?

What evidence do you have for this statement?

NCEES Calculator Policy NCEES is the official organization for professional engineering exams. Any engineer that is required to or for that matter desires to have a Professional Engineer registration in any state has to take their exams. The only TI families they allow are the TI-30 and TI-36. Definitely no graphing calculators on the list though some do have the ability to solve some calculus such as basic derivatives, integrals, etc. and solve quadratics.

There's an easy dividing line between real engineers and fakers in the United States: it's the Professional Engineer licensing program. Graduates from an engineering program can take the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam; if they pass they are considered "Engineers in Training" (EIT). Fourish years later, the EIT can take the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam; after passing the candidate can be licensed by their state as a Professional Engineer, and put the initials PE after their name like doctors do. Licensed PEs can take on legal liability for the designs they create and are consequently eligible for work in fields where public safety is a concern.

I get why many PE type engineers get bent out of shape over the use of titles sanitation engineer, software engineer, and domestic engineer; it dilutes the title, and makes a joke of the profession. Honestly, though, I'd be fine with programmers joining the Engineering club; all they have to do is take the test (yes, there is a computing version of the PE exam, and its requirements don't look too tough to me). As long as they don't use the PE title without earning it I'll be happy, though.

There's an easy dividing line between real engineers and fakers in the United States: it's the Professional Engineer licensing program. Graduates from an engineering program can take the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam; if they pass they are considered "Engineers in Training" (EIT). Fourish years later, the EIT can take the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam; after passing the candidate can be licensed by their state as a Professional Engineer, and put the initials PE after their name like doctors do. Licensed PEs can take on legal liability for the designs they create and are consequently eligible for work in fields where public safety is a concern.

I get why many PE type engineers get bent out of shape over the use of titles sanitation engineer, software engineer, and domestic engineer; it dilutes the title, and makes a joke of the profession. Honestly, though, I'd be fine with programmers joining the Engineering club; all they have to do is take the test (yes, there is a computing version of the PE exam, and its requirements don't look too tough to me). As long as they don't use the PE title without earning it I'll be happy, though.

There's an easy dividing line between real engineers and fakers in the United States: it's the Professional Engineer licensing program. Graduates from an engineering program can take the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam; if they pass they are considered "Engineers in Training" (EIT). Fourish years later, the EIT can take the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam; after passing the candidate can be licensed by their state as a Professional Engineer, and put the initials PE after their name like doctors do. Licensed PEs can take on legal liability for the designs they create and are consequently eligible for work in fields where public safety is a concern.

I get why many PE type engineers get bent out of shape over the use of titles sanitation engineer, software engineer, and domestic engineer; it dilutes the title, and makes a joke of the profession. Honestly, though, I'd be fine with programmers joining the Engineering club; all they have to do is take the test (yes, there is a computing version of the PE exam, and its requirements don't look too tough to me). As long as they don't use the PE title without earning it I'll be happy, though.

There's an easy dividing line between real engineers and fakers in the United States: it's the Professional Engineer licensing program. Graduates from an engineering program can take the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam; if they pass they are considered "Engineers in Training" (EIT). Fourish years later, the EIT can take the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam; after passing the candidate can be licensed by their state as a Professional Engineer, and put the initials PE after their name like doctors do. Licensed PEs can take on legal liability for the designs they create and are consequently eligible for work in fields where public safety is a concern.

I get why many PE type engineers get bent out of shape over the use of titles sanitation engineer, software engineer, and domestic engineer; it dilutes the title, and makes a joke of the profession. Honestly, though, I'd be fine with programmers joining the Engineering club; all they have to do is take the test (yes, there is a computing version of the PE exam, and its requirements don't look too tough to me). As long as they don't use the PE title without earning it I'll be happy, though.

except for when you can't take that calculator into an exam.

For NCEES stuff, you can't use any nice calculator.
Given their list, I'd choose the HPs.

You can always walk away and not want the loan. Universities do not posess some secret knowledge, it's all in the books and if you can read you can learn. Smart employers will ignore your lack of degree if instead you present a lot of experience.

That's not the case if you want to be a professional engineer (a requirement in most places to be the engineer that signs off and takes liability for a project). Note the first requirement:

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_for_engineers/

Step 1: Graduation - The first step is graduating from an ABET-accredited engineering program at a college or university.

Sure, you can learn all this on your own, and to be a good engineer, you indeed have to keep learning on your own. But you NEED that piece of paper if you want to be anything more than an engineer technician.

And what if you want to be a lawyer? There are only 4 states that allow you to sit the Bar exam without a law degree, but that's only if you work under a judge for an extended period of time.

While I would agree with you and go so far as to say that all learning must be done by the individual, there are indeed situations (and benefits) where you have to have that piece of paper from a school that says they've vetted you for a minimum amount of knowledge.

Maybe "smart" employers will ignore your knowledge without a degree, but they'll also pay you less. Someone doing the same job and with equivalent skills, who also has a degree, will almost always make more. The trick for them was to make sure they'll make enough more so that they can pay off the loans and still be ahead.

However, most employers aren't smart, they're safe. And hiring the graduate is the safe thing to do.

Professional Engineer (PE) needs a license. The rules vary from state to state, with all requiring you to pass the NCEES Principles and Practice Exam for your chosen field.

http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional

Almost all of the Professional Engineering certification exams in the United States are multiple choice, with no penalty for guessing incorrectly.

Yes. Controls Engineering is recognized by NCEES.

So... what is a "PE stamp"?

PE refers to a "Professional Engineer," which would be a person who has achieved their professionally-accredited engineering license through their state board. It's a rigorous process involving years of work and multiple (extremely challenging) exams. In the state where I began this process, the allowed disciplines were Electrical, Civil, Chemical, Mechanical, and Industrial engineering. I believe many places have added an Environmental Engineering discipline, as well as expanded Electrical Engineering into Electrical and Computer Engineering.

In general, for those who don't have the enthusiasm to click through, becoming a PE requires achieving a degree from an ABET-accredited university. After this, the Fundamentals of Engineering exam must be taken and passed; this is an 8-hour exam with 4 hours on all the sciences, math, economics, and ethics that this exam usually covers. The second 4 hours is focused in your area of specialty. After passing this exam, you become an EIT (Engineer-in-Training). After working for an amount of time (this can vary, based on what level of degree you hold -- BS, MS, PhD, etc -- and on the state) and being "signed off" by a PE, you are eligible to take the PE (Principles and Practices of Engineering) exam. Upon completing this (and, of course, paying the appropriate fees to your state board), you hold a Professional Engineer license in your area of specialty.

And now that I've said all that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no licensing requirement to name yourself a "Software Engineer," "Network Engineer," "Systems Engineer," or most other strictly computer-related "Engineer" titles.

1. What is the calculator policy? What calculators may I bring to the exam?
Only models of calculators approved by NCEES are permitted in the exam room. No other models of calculators or variations of the models listed below are permitted in the exam room. The following are the only calculators that will be permitted in the exam room for the 2007 exam administrations.

• Hewlett Packard - HP 33S
• Casio - FX 115MS or FX 115MSPlus
• Texas Instruments - TI 30X IIS
• Texas Instruments - TI 36X SOLAR

Each year, NCEES will review and revise the approved calculator list and then announce the updated list by November 15.

In the U.S., there is such a thing as 'Professional Engineer' certification. If you have it, you can put the initials "P.E." after your name. Without P.E. certification, you cannot advertise independent engineering services, and you cannot sign legal documents (e.g., structural plans). P.E. certification is also required for many municipal and government contracts. However, it is legal for you to do engineering work in a larger company without certification.

To get certified, generally you take the "Fundamentals of Engineering" exam your senior year as an undergraduate at university. If you pass, you are then on the P.E. track, but you are not yet certified: You must work another four(?) years in industry as an engineer, after which you must take the "Principles and Practice of Engineering" exam. If you also pass the second exam, you are a Professional Engineer.

I'd say it's a good idea to get certified. If you're looking for more information, check out the NCEES website.

Sorry, but as a mechanical engineering (who works with a lot of civil engineers), I can't let this one pass. You wrote:

I lie awake at night dreaming of only having to solve a problem as simple a bridge. It has only one use case: vehicles of a known weight with a known wheel surface traveling in predetermined paths at a predetermined rate of speed.

and then you wrote:

people would be in an uproar about all the deaths that are only possible because of the bridges: people jump off of them, cars crash over the guard rails, tornadoes and hurricanes wipe them out, and if they are not maintained properly they eventually fall to the ground under their own weight.

All of those factors do need to be accounted for in bridge design, along with many others (including wind loading, vibration, earthquake stability, pedestrian 'missiles', grade, water control, surface icing, freeze/thaw cycles, underbridge clearance, sewage & water/hazmat runoff, traffic flow, sight lines, and so on). Go read up on your state building codes. Or better yet, go down to your local college engineering library and have a look at SAE/ASTM/ANSI engineering standards for bridge design.

As for:

Books could be filled with the death stories of people killed by bridges

Amazon gives quite a few hits when searching "bridge disasters" books. Also, check around the NHTSA site some time.

And lets not forget that if a faulty bridge does fail (even in a non-fatal incident), the engineer that stamped the design may very well go the jail.

Is bridge design harder/simpler than software design? I don't know, but I do know that it's far from "simple."

[As an aside, you wrote:

Also, if you dig down deep enough on the Earth, there is always something solid to anchor the bridge.

While it's true that you can always reach bedrock if you dig deep enough, a lot of times it's not practical to dig deep enough to bedrock. For example, the Big Dig slurry walls go down more than 100 ft in some places and don't hit bedrock. In those cases, you have to different techniques (tiebacks, heavy masses, soil mixing/grouting etc) to anchor your structure. Not every location is like Manhattan]

The NCEES just banned the HP48/49 from their popular engineering exams. People were using them to steal exam questions and/or to cheat by transmitting to one another. The HP33s is the ONLY RPN calculator that is explicitly approved. They are seriously considering switching to only allowing calculators that have been explicitly approved, but say they want to keep the list short (so may exclude the great vintage RPN calcs like the 15c). There was a HUGE rush to get the 33s in time for the April exam a week or two ago & they were being sold on ebay for hundreds of dollars.

Students in the engineering field might want to reconsider purchasing a beauty like this. According to the NCEES website. You cannot use this for the F.E.E. See here for their faq.

Mainly it is non-IR, and non-text editing. They pretty much want you to go back to using slide-rules for taking their exam. This new policy goes into effect in April 2004.

It really pisses me off, because now I have to go buy an older calculator so I can take their f#@#$ing exam to show that I can be an engineer. Just 'cause a few people go in there and try to steal the questions. Stupid!!

Students in the engineering field might want to reconsider purchasing a beauty like this. According to the NCEES website. You cannot use this for the F.E.E. See here for their faq.

Mainly it is non-IR, and non-text editing. They pretty much want you to go back to using slide-rules for taking their exam. This new policy goes into effect in April 2004.

It really pisses me off, because now I have to go buy an older calculator so I can take their f#@#$ing exam to show that I can be an engineer. Just 'cause a few people go in there and try to steal the questions. Stupid!!

yeah right. that has always been their policy but they never check, not in the 10 years i have taken the eit, the pe and the se. ncees is so disorganized- their notification letters for 2 years after the pencil mandate stated to bring 3 sharpened #2 pencils. please, engineers doing an essay exam not allowed to bring erasers, come on.

FYI, if you want to use your new calc on a PE exam, read this and this first. Basically, all calcs from the HP-48G/49G series are banned as of next April. I'm glad I already got my PE; I would hate to take it without RPN...

FYI, if you want to use your new calc on a PE exam, read this and this first. Basically, all calcs from the HP-48G/49G series are banned as of next April. I'm glad I already got my PE; I would hate to take it without RPN...

This is not correct. Check your state's engineering laws. Most, if not all, states regulate the use of the title "Engineer," and it usually requires a lot more than merely holding an engineering degree. PEs aren't limited to Civil Engineering work. That's why there are separate exams for mechanical, electrical, nuclear, civil, etc., etc. Furthermore, PEs are required by law and ethics to stay within their areas of expertise. So a Civil PE stamping electrical plans is a no-no.

Try getting electrical plans that aren't stamped by a PE approved for a permit and see how far your BSEE will get you. Many states require permitting agencies to accept only PE-stamped plans.

Texas, unlike the rest of the US, says that the title Engineer is the equivalent of the P.E., which it is not. This is an error on the part of lawmakers in Texas, who should act to bring their definition of Engineer into line with the rest of the country.

This is not correct... What differentiates Texas from most states is their enforcement of their engineering statutes. (Pennsylvania is pretty aggressive too.) In most states it is illegal to call oneself "engineer" in public circles without a PE license. Most states' "industry exemptions" are pretty broad though and most folks won't get busted for having the title "engineer" on their business card. Most states only go after folks who are actively trying to sell engineering services to the public, not "software engineers" or "tech support engineers."

Since I have a degree, which I earned, that includes the title Engineer, I find it offensive that Texas would refuse me the right to use that title. Requiring a P.E. for some activities is perfectly understandable, but there are many Engineers who do not have a P.E., who still deserve to be able to use the title they earned.

What makes the issue difficult is determining when one is no longer considered an engineer for internal purposes and starts offering engineering services to the public. Take TI as an example, if they have people who design chips, subsytems, etc for manufacture, it's pretty clear that they aren't offering engineering services to the public. However, what about "applications engineers?" If they provide designs using TI components to customers, are these engineers are offering a service to the public? Texas is going to the extreme in preventing the slipperly slope syndrome. IMHO, In the "internal case" Texas should apply an "industry exemption" and leave the engineers alone... In the latter case, those guys should be regulated as PEs since they are selling designs (in exchange for chip business)...

And for those folks that say "hey, that electrical PE exam is for things liker power and big motors...", look again. NCEES, the folks who prepare the Fundamentals of Engineering and Principles and Practice Exams, have recently revised the EE exam to indlude a depth section on computers and software engineering for folks who work in computer-related fields. IMHO, any person worth his/her salt who wants to be called a "Software Engineer" should be able to pass that exam.

--zawada
(licensed PE in four states)

This is not correct. Check your state's engineering laws. Most, if not all, states regulate the use of the title "Engineer," and it usually requires a lot more than merely holding an engineering degree. PEs aren't limited to Civil Engineering work. That's why there are separate exams for mechanical, electrical, nuclear, civil, etc., etc. Furthermore, PEs are required by law and ethics to stay within their areas of expertise. So a Civil PE stamping electrical plans is a no-no.

Try getting electrical plans that aren't stamped by a PE approved for a permit and see how far your BSEE will get you. Many states require permitting agencies to accept only PE-stamped plans.

Texas, unlike the rest of the US, says that the title Engineer is the equivalent of the P.E., which it is not. This is an error on the part of lawmakers in Texas, who should act to bring their definition of Engineer into line with the rest of the country.

This is not correct... What differentiates Texas from most states is their enforcement of their engineering statutes. (Pennsylvania is pretty aggressive too.) In most states it is illegal to call oneself "engineer" in public circles without a PE license. Most states' "industry exemptions" are pretty broad though and most folks won't get busted for having the title "engineer" on their business card. Most states only go after folks who are actively trying to sell engineering services to the public, not "software engineers" or "tech support engineers."

Since I have a degree, which I earned, that includes the title Engineer, I find it offensive that Texas would refuse me the right to use that title. Requiring a P.E. for some activities is perfectly understandable, but there are many Engineers who do not have a P.E., who still deserve to be able to use the title they earned.

What makes the issue difficult is determining when one is no longer considered an engineer for internal purposes and starts offering engineering services to the public. Take TI as an example, if they have people who design chips, subsytems, etc for manufacture, it's pretty clear that they aren't offering engineering services to the public. However, what about "applications engineers?" If they provide designs using TI components to customers, are these engineers are offering a service to the public? Texas is going to the extreme in preventing the slipperly slope syndrome. IMHO, In the "internal case" Texas should apply an "industry exemption" and leave the engineers alone... In the latter case, those guys should be regulated as PEs since they are selling designs (in exchange for chip business)...

And for those folks that say "hey, that electrical PE exam is for things liker power and big motors...", look again. NCEES, the folks who prepare the Fundamentals of Engineering and Principles and Practice Exams, have recently revised the EE exam to indlude a depth section on computers and software engineering for folks who work in computer-related fields. IMHO, any person worth his/her salt who wants to be called a "Software Engineer" should be able to pass that exam.

--zawada
(licensed PE in four states)

This is not correct. Check your state's engineering laws. Most, if not all, states regulate the use of the title "Engineer," and it usually requires a lot more than merely holding an engineering degree. PEs aren't limited to Civil Engineering work. That's why there are separate exams for mechanical, electrical, nuclear, civil, etc., etc. Furthermore, PEs are required by law and ethics to stay within their areas of expertise. So a Civil PE stamping electrical plans is a no-no.

Try getting electrical plans that aren't stamped by a PE approved for a permit and see how far your BSEE will get you. Many states require permitting agencies to accept only PE-stamped plans.

Texas, unlike the rest of the US, says that the title Engineer is the equivalent of the P.E., which it is not. This is an error on the part of lawmakers in Texas, who should act to bring their definition of Engineer into line with the rest of the country.

This is not correct... What differentiates Texas from most states is their enforcement of their engineering statutes. (Pennsylvania is pretty aggressive too.) In most states it is illegal to call oneself "engineer" in public circles without a PE license. Most states' "industry exemptions" are pretty broad though and most folks won't get busted for having the title "engineer" on their business card. Most states only go after folks who are actively trying to sell engineering services to the public, not "software engineers" or "tech support engineers."

Since I have a degree, which I earned, that includes the title Engineer, I find it offensive that Texas would refuse me the right to use that title. Requiring a P.E. for some activities is perfectly understandable, but there are many Engineers who do not have a P.E., who still deserve to be able to use the title they earned.

What makes the issue difficult is determining when one is no longer considered an engineer for internal purposes and starts offering engineering services to the public. Take TI as an example, if they have people who design chips, subsytems, etc for manufacture, it's pretty clear that they aren't offering engineering services to the public. However, what about "applications engineers?" If they provide designs using TI components to customers, are these engineers are offering a service to the public? Texas is going to the extreme in preventing the slipperly slope syndrome. IMHO, In the "internal case" Texas should apply an "industry exemption" and leave the engineers alone... In the latter case, those guys should be regulated as PEs since they are selling designs (in exchange for chip business)...

And for those folks that say "hey, that electrical PE exam is for things liker power and big motors...", look again. NCEES, the folks who prepare the Fundamentals of Engineering and Principles and Practice Exams, have recently revised the EE exam to indlude a depth section on computers and software engineering for folks who work in computer-related fields. IMHO, any person worth his/her salt who wants to be called a "Software Engineer" should be able to pass that exam.

--zawada
(licensed PE in four states)

There is a current trend of people calling themselves engineers when, in actuality, they are not, technically. Many projects which involve life and death consequences, such as power systems, bridges, etc. require a "real" engineer, one who has an engineering degree from an ABET accredited engineering program. Many times the project will even require a certified engineer, a Professional Engineer, PE. This is not unlike being licensed to be a doctor or lawyer. I can't just walk in off of the street and say that I'm a doctor and have the authority to practice medicine just because I've taken a few CPR classes, even though I may know as much as a licensed doctor. It's all about the credentials for liability purposes. The same should go for the engineering profession.

Not to sound elitist, but engineers are held to higher standards over run of the mill programmers for these reasons. Having said this, I'm a computer engineer and have a degree from an ABET accredited engineering program and I'd wager to say that there are MANY people who are much better programmers than I. I have no problem with computer science people or even self taught people being great programmers, what I do have a problem with is someone saying they are something which they are not.

But are you a professional engineer? I received a BSEE and remember from my last year of school the examination to become a professional engineer. For the EEs, there wasn't a whole lot of reasons to take the test. On the other hand, a lot of the CEs I knew were taking the exams. For the work that CEs do, a professional engineer needs to sign off on plans/design so that no one comes to harm. As an EE doing software, there isn't much need for that kind of thing. Though I did know one EE that was going into defense contract work and though that being a professional engineer would benifit his carreer.

It's not bad just on the IT side of the house, but other engineering disciplines, too. I graduated in December with a degree in "hard core" electrical engineering. You know, 65,000 volt three phase zapping, big motor turning, logic controller programming, microwave transmitting real engineering of the type where you have to take that grueling 8 hour motherfscker of a test at the end to prove you're worthy of an Engineer-in-Training certificate.

For four years, I was hearing where even the bottom of the class graduates were getting jobs at Motorola and Lockheed, and their hiring bonus was the company paying off their student loans in full. But guess what? It took me five years. I graduated a day late and a dollar short. All those big ticket engineering jobs vanished. I did manage to have a job waiting for me upon graduation, a "cushy" government job as a DoD civilian with the Air Force, but the entry level salary of $28,535 (GS-5) turned me off, as well as having to relocate to a base smack in the middle of Georgia. I turned it down in hopes that I could catch a bigger fish closer to home... EE-YONK! EE-YONK! is the sound of a disillusioned electrical engineer who feels like a jackass.

Sure, there's EE jobs available, but the requirements are so pointed and specific that it looks like they are trying to attract back the same people who got laid off (or jumped ship) when the economy tanked. "Wanted: B.S. Engineering EE, ME,or CE & PMI Certification preferred. Project Engineer in power Distribution Substation Dept. Plan, design, & assemble project staff for Engineering Programs. Responsible for development, implementation, & maintenance of projects. 10+ years experience with demonstrated work experience with distributed control system hardware and software, preferably Honeywell TDC/TPS platform, work experience in applying ANSI/ISA S84.01 to safety shutdown systems, ability to manage multiple projects over $3 million." Not hardly the type of experience someone who is still wet behind the ears out of college has. The best I've been able to do is whore myself out for temporary work.