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Oregon Fines Man For Writing a Complaint Email Stating 'I Am An Engineer' (vice.com)
pogopop77 quotes a report from Motherboard: In September 2014, Mats Jarlstrom, an electronics engineer living in Beaverton, Oregon, sent an email to the state's engineering board. The email claimed that yellow traffic lights don't last long enough, which "puts the public at risk." "I would like to present these facts for your review and comments," he wrote. This email resulted not with a meeting, but with a threat from The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying [stating]: "ORS 672.020(1) prohibits the practice of engineering in Oregon without registration -- at a minimum, your use of the title 'electronics engineer' and the statement 'I'm an engineer' create violations." In January of this year, Jarlstrom was officially fined $500 by the state for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Since the engineering board in Oregon said Jarlstrom should not be free to publish or present his ideas about the fast-turning yellow traffic lights, due to his "practice of engineering in Oregon without registration," he and the Institute for Justice sued them in federal court for violating his First Amendment rights. "I'm not practicing engineering, I'm just using basic mathematics and physics, Newtonian laws of motion, to make calculations and talk about what I found," he said. Sam Gedge, an attorney for the Institute for Justice, told Motherboard: "Mats has a clear First Amendment right to talk about anything from taxes to traffic lights. It's an instance of a licensing board trying to suppress speech."
Why didn't he ever register as an engineer, or at least stop going around telling people he's something he is legally not?
I am NOT a lawyer. I am NOT an engineer registered in the state of Oregon.
Another case of "in order to be recognized as a professional, please fill in this form which has no purpose in real life and does not mean anything regarding your skill level". What next, should engineers "need" a certificate from some acronym heavy organization that lacks any relevance to current, fast phased world (I am looking at you ISACA and ISC)? The day certificates and pieces of paper became more important than actual relevant knowledge si the day when business went to "number two".
Don't live in America.
Now if this were a conservative state run by big corporations, you would also have them suing this guy for violating the proprietary intellectual property right of the algorithms used to control yellow lights. See there is no difference between conservatives and liberals. They both want to fuck you in the ass and will use any governmental, corporate monopoly, or legal statute to ensure that your ass is good and fucked. Your government wants to fuck you, Verizon wants to fuck you,
All Gore wants to fuck you. Trump wants to fuck you. HILLARY wants to fuck you. Chipoltle wants to fuck you. CNN , Fox, MSNBC and ABC also want to fuck you. You have a very desirable ass. It is best just to allow yourself to be fucked for the good of society. If you don't you will be labeled a homophobic racist child molesting homosexual terrorist.
As a software "engineer" I suppose I need to register? But it's a title the company gave me.. I'm not really an engineer in the conventional sense.. Am I?
WTF?
And people still think we need more government intervention...
... why doesn't he fix his fucking name?
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
And I don't need to register my credentials to say that, bitch.
I get it that you nerds feel more important and accomplished using the titles "engineer" and "architect" and for the most part, you're ignored because it's harmless in general. Until you start presenting yourself as an authority on a subject claiming the title of "engineer" that is. In most (or all) states, actual professional engineers invariably have a much more rigorous education than a pretender, with years of internship and have to write 2 marathon-like exams (one in fundamentals of engineering - subjects like thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, electricity, mechanics of solids, etc., and one in their field of practice) before they can legally claim the title.
You wanna be an actual engineer? Put in the work. You can take your MSCE two month course and tell everyone you're an engineer and it's generally ignored as cute and harmless. And by that, I mean, no one cares. Being an actual engineer means a helluva lot more.
Is the imbecile who sent the fine won't be fired.
where anyone can use the title engineer. We get a lot of resumes from people claiming to be engineers since Microsoft says they are since they passed Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer test. Stop wasting our time.
You don't need to be an engineer to measure slashdot advertisements now cover a full third of the screen while stories load and now 1/3 of the horizontal space which means the comment density requires much more scrolling.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I'm all for restricting the use of credentials - like 'Doctor', for instance - to people certified by the state to use them. However, that restriction should only come into play when they're using those credentials professionally or to lend authority to a fraudulent claim, which this man was not.
He was speaking the truth, arguably for the public good, and he IS an engineer, just not one registered to work professionally in the state. His background does make his study and its findings somewhat more credible to those incapable of understanding it themselves... but he's RIGHT, so he's not trying to use that title to defraud anyone.
I hope he wins his lawsuit.
I worked in a place with a lot of people who worked in the Engineering dept. These folks designed, revised, worked with the people on the shop floor to resolve problems, etc. None of these folks were "Engineers". They were all referred to as "Engineers". It's just a common term for people who do jobs like that.
We also designed and manufactured a couple of life-critical gadgets - things which might result in a death if they failed. Those drawings had to be signed and stamped by one of our two certified Engineers. But we would have been find into oblivion, I guess, 'cause we referred to just about everyone on that floor as an Engineer.
If he wins the suit, there's nothing to stop people from claiming to be medical doctors and doing all sorts of (more) harm to society.
Just present the facts without claiming to be an engineer.
The thing is, he WAS an engineer, the fine was for practicing in the state without a license, even though that necessitates a transaction of some sort. They basically fined him for stating his education level in an e-mail as an excuse to punish him for disagreeing with them.
If I understand the summary, he's challenging the fine for practicing engineering without registration as he doesn't actually practice engineering.
Perhaps it's not illegal to say "I'm a doctor" as long as you don't then go on to offer a medical opinion or perform a medical procedure?
Sigger than your average
Perhaps he would have been taken more seriously if he quoted a line from the movie "The Fifth Element".
Unless of course, there is some state or federal requirement that requires that a minimal percentage of meat by weight exist before declaring any said "meatness" and that said meat must be at or below the temperature of 32 degrees based on the Fahrenheit scale of measurement.
As an industry trained engineer, I've been doing engineering for a few decades. From designing computers and electronics in the 80's to performing and presenting current scientific research, it's just been a part of my life, but previously, I could only refer to myself as an "Amateur Engineer". It's not that I'm not trained, I just wasn't trained in a university. Back in the 80's when I learned to design computers ( as an autodidact ) there simply wasn't a university path open for me as I was in high school at the time, and I was taken in by an R&D lab before I could study further and quickly gained skills and experience beyond what the universities were teaching at the time so never went back to university.
Still, not being able to refer to myself as an engineer caused many problem, especially when registering for government projects or work - where are best I could only call myself a "technician" despite having working in many roles where I was the lead engineer and managed other engineers. It made it pretty difficult finding new work at times also.
Now the Australian government has finally recognized that if you work as an engineer, doing the kind of work that an engineer would normally be expected to do, for a period of five cumulative years, you've proven your point and are recognized not only as an experienced engineer, but as a professional engineer.
Anyone might still be able to claim to be an engineer in Australia, but at least those who have spent years actually doing engineering as a career and were trained on-the-job have finally gained formal recognition as providers of professional services now, whether trained in a university or otherwise. And it's in legislation.
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
In Texas, the Occupation Codes state that you cannot do the math if you are not a Licensed Professional Engineer unless you work for Licensed Professional Engineer (who is responsible for your work), work for the Government (primarily Military or NASA), teach and a few other exceptions. In Texas the licensing started because a person representing themselves as an engineer designed a boiler system for a school that blew up and killed over 100 children back in 1937.
In this case, anybody willing to to to Portola, CA and pay about $500 can become an engineer, just so long as said person isn't trying to claim any specific discipline.
Gee I think I see a loophole big enough to drive a train through.
Perhaps it's not illegal to say "I'm a doctor" as long as you don't then go on to offer a medical opinion
But he did claim to be a "doctor" offer a "medical" opinion.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
http://www.oregon.gov/osbeels/pages/contact_us.aspx
These fucking idiots have no clue what the fuck they are even talking about. You cab BE an engineer and know about engineerig, without "practicing" egineering. I hope he fights it.
I don't know whether it's illegal to claim to be a doctor if you're not offering a medical opinion. But it certainly is illegal to claim to be a doctor and then offer a medical opinion. Was this guy not claiming to be offering an opinion as an engineer?
What you would have to be suggesting, if this is meant as a defense of this guy, is that you can claim to be a doctor, offer an opinion about a medical topic, then say "well, I didn't directly say that the opinion about the medical topic was being made as a doctor. I was just giving that opinion as a layman, while also just happening to mention I was a doctor."
In essence, he was using his claim of being an engineer to elevate his opinion above that of a layman, and now is trying to claim that's not what he was doing. If he wasn't meaning to be giving the opinion as part of his expertise as an engineer, why mention it at all?
Because if they aren't...
Along with "pumping your own damn gas".
If he wins the suit, there's nothing to stop people from claiming to be medical doctors and doing all sorts of (more) harm to society.
Just present the facts without claiming to be an engineer.
NO, my dear. Once an engineer always an engineer, regardless of what some board says. Same BTW goes for medical doctors. Nobody claimed to be an 'Engineer licensed by the state of Oregon', and nobody 'practiced engineering' without being licensed. Anybody who has an engineering degree or worked sufficient number of years as an engineer is one
Hope the law suit is large enough to shut down the licensing idiocy of the board altogether, otherwise they will one day claim that to be called a human requires their stamp of approval
"Dammit, Jim, I'm a...
Table-ized A.I.
Where is the piece of paper that certifies you have expert qualifications in this area.
Hey guys... that knowledge base was obsolete five years after somebody got that piece of paper. Some of it was already obsolete when they were taking the courses. And you don't have to sit in an expensive classroom paying $50,000/yr to get a great education these days... you just have to be bright, highly motivated, and well organized.
The Oregon statute also defines what practicing engineering means under the law. The statutory definition, while overbroad, covers *working* as as engineer, not *saying* you're an engineer.
https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors...
1) "Practice of engineering" or "practice of professional engineering" means doing any of the following: ...
(a) Performing any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training and experience.
(b) Applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such *professional services* or creative work as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, design and services during construction
To any Oregon bureacrats who happen to be reading this:
I'm an engineer. I'm also a train conductor. And a unicorn. Fuck you, Oregon.
Knowing how citizens of the left coast tend to think, they'll decide that the solution to this abuse of an overbroad regulation by power-hungry bureaucrats is to create more regulations, to be wielded by more power-hungry bureacrats.
Didn't read TFA but let me guess: red light cameras are in use and Oregon gets its cut from the take. So the whole discussion about the 'engineer' title (which is fine, you shouldn't be able to call yourself "Dr." "M.D." "Pharmacist" or even "meteorologist" without proper qualifacations) kind of overshadows the problem with the yelllow lights. Purposefully reducing the amount of time the light stays on yellow in order to trap more people "running a red light" is of course ehhhrrrmmmm "unethical" to say the least, and if someone says pure theft I won't contradict that.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
Agreed, and being licensed as an engineer by some board in Oregon does not make one an engineer. Would be nice to have someone from MIT or Caltech to go and check their licensing requirements, and subject the board to a simple test to see if they know some engineering to begin with
Perhaps it's not illegal to say "I'm a doctor" as long as you don't then go on to offer a medical opinion
But he did claim to be a "doctor" offer a "medical" opinion.
I'm not trying to say that literally you legally can't claim to be a member of one profession and offer any opinion or perform any procedure that's even loosely related to that profession. I would assume that only in the case where offering an opinion or performing a procedure would be considered to having been done in the role of performing that profession would it be illegal.
eg. Claiming to be a pilot and saying the new Airbus is crap (probably) isn't illegal. I believe that claiming to be an engineer and going to work at a construction firm without proper qualifications, then advising the builders on the minimum diameter of steel reinforcing required for a concrete structure would be illegal.
Sigger than your average
Uh. What does Trump have to do with this?
This started in 2014 and finished up on 12 January 2017. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Trump didn't swear in until the 20th.
So the entirety of this sad debacle in the suppression of freedom of speech happened on Obama's watch.
Not that it was necessarily Obama's fault either. But, by your brain-dead "logic" it is...
This is about a collusion between state government agencies to shut someone up who is attempting to alert the public to one or more agencies' shady practices at the expense of said public.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Perhaps it's not illegal to say "I'm a doctor" as long as you don't then go on to offer a medical opinion
But he did claim to be a "doctor" offer a "medical" opinion.
So what, there are doctors in India who can offer medical opinions although they have not being certified by California Board. Are you saying if they offered a medical opinion by email that was read in California, they are in violation of some local laws? Licensing was invented by professional guilds solely to lock in the profit
No really. I have the degrees and pay stubs to prove it. And there is at least one thing, OK, only one thing, currently in space that I worked on.
I just read ORS 672.007. Under Oregon law saying "I'm an engineer" counts as "practicing engineering". There is still a first amendment issue.
https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors...
Still, I must say:
I'm the tooth fairy.
I'm an engineer.
I'm a unicorn.
Fuck you, Oregon.
In a time when you can identify as the gender you want, the race you want, or even the sort of military hardware you want... it seems awful regressive to punish him for identifying as an engineer.
How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
No idea, they're still making PowerPoint slides about it. Then they will create a MS Project schedule and investigate whether "light" really satisfies the requirements. Six months will go by and by the time one of the engineers is finally ready to screw in the bulb the business needs will have changed and there will be no funding.
Sorry, you are an imbecile.
Licensing was invented by professional guilds solely to lock in the profit
You go on believing that until some incompetent fraud designs something that kills your loved ones. Then you will be the one whining about the government not protecting it's citizens.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
are they going to fine software engineers as well?
You look ill, I'll just get my knife and fork and cut out that nasty looking poltageist for you.
'Engineer' is a protected word, it signifies you have passed the qualifications needed, those qualifications have been verified, you have not been struck off and any insurance requirements are paid and up to date. He asserted a protected designation without complying with that designation.
He either says "I *was* an engineer", or registers his qualifications, insurance etc..
I doubt there's a big conspiracy over traffic lights, and nobody can stop him talking about traffic lights. Only his claim to be an engineer.
If he's a doctor, he's not allowed to endorse medicines. But if you let anyone say "I am a doctor and I endorse this medicine", that would make a mockery of the rule.
He needs to stop this shit and be professional about it.
Your deliberate failure to distinguish between Trump personally and the corporations he headed is dishonest, as is your failure to supply the number of corporations he headed.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Afaik the question is wether he was practicing as an engineer. Offering a medical opinion is part of practicing as a medical doctor. If he claimed to be a pilot and offered an opinion on what he thought the pros and cons of a certain model of aircraft were I wouldn't expect that to be illegal as it isn't part of the role of practicing the profession of piloting an aircraft to offer opinions of the various qualities of different aircraft.
The question I would ask is "Is writing an unsolicited letter to the state engineering board regarding the safety issues resulting from the length of a yellow traffic light considered part of the profession of engineering?"
Sigger than your average
Had to do it. XP
Well that's his point, isn't it? All he was doing is mouthing off. He wasn't offering to sign design documents for the State of Oregon, was he?
An engineering education alone without any experience does not make an engineer. However I would agree a "degreed engineer" is a legitimate distinction that should not be suppressed. Rather "registered engineer", particularly with the central disciplines and state filed, stamped paperwork, should be the legally protected term. Otherwise many issues of competition, guilds, Constituitional violations (e.g. free speech) occur.
Also context is important.
This is a travesty*, the shameful, traditional closing ranks of an organization to protect their own. He is lodging a complaint with the board about a potential safety issue. Even if his analysis was entirely without merit it deserves a more respectful response.
For the record: I am a licensed civil engineer (PE). I am no longer a practicing engineer (retired/inactive).
*I do think he should have gotten a note warning him about the legal ramifications of using the term "engineer". Most people don't know it requires licensing. Having a foreign engineering degree means he doesn't have any background with US licensing standards.
Even then it's stupid. Most of the engineers in the world are unlicensed. You only need a couple of PEs in most cases.
Of course these days the term is already worn as thin as kleenex and no stronger than jello. IMHO we (professional engineers) lost all claims of governance over the term "engineer" the day the engineering license boards didn't wage war over "sanitation engineer".
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
Is Oregon going to fine Railroad engineers?
He claimed to be a doctor and gave the opinion that the other doctors were wrong. That's not a medical opinion, but a complaint. Shooting the messenger is a bad policy.
Learn to love Alaska
Oh man I wish I could mod this up. He did not represent himself as a licensed engineer or claim credentials as such. If he had, that would be a crime.
And FWIW my good friend who is a licensed P.E. could not even put "engineering" in the title of his side business because he wasn't offering true engineering services. I suspect the same can be said for medical and other industries.
However we all know he was really just using it in this case to try to give himself some credibility, not claim anything he was not.
One things for certain though, he is obviously not well versed enough to know yet that challenging ranking ideas unprovoked as an outsider is likely to get you looked upon with ire. I've dealt with many proud superiors in my field (EE). Usually I had to do it on my own time and and then present it once it worked and was provable.
We need to protect the title, or any idiot can call themselves and engineer and offer engineering services. Hell, MSFT calls their code monkeys engineers.
Do they use engineering practices, NO.
Do they have professional liability, NO.
Do they have a professional licensing body, whose goal is to protect the public NO.
We either protect the title, or hell, lets just call anybody anything.
You can Call me Dr. Admiral Anonymous Coward Esquire, Engineer, Astronaut.
I offer my services of Navigation , Law, Admiralty Law, Engineering, and Aerospace expertise to anyone who can pay.
Engineering licensure is mostly a racket. The licensing board gets its cut, and the P.E.s think they are restricting the pool of people who can compete for their job, so they will be better paid. I say that as someone who got an engineering degree and passed the FE exam but never sent a penny to any licensing board because I am not some Civil Engineer who lives in a backward state where some board takes its cut from anyone trying to practice his trade. Licensure is -not- the standard in most American states, BTW. Well, maybe if you are a civil engineer, it might be. ;-)
Ok, so what happened in federal court??? I hate when someone reports only half the story. AHHH!
They have a serious issue with anyone not building roads or bridges calling themselves engineers. They require everyone to do EIT and PE testing. You can actually do that all without any formal training and the tests 'try' to be universal which is stupid. If you can build a bridge and write some simple fortran, you can be an PE. Woot...
If Mr. Jarlstrom is a member of the IEEE or ACM then might want to contact them for help. The Oregon board of examiners should stick to examining lumberjack wardrobes. Anything other than that takes them way out of their league.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Exactly, he wasn't doing any professional work, he was merely pointing out that he was qualified to express an informed opinion. The idea that he can get fined for that is bizarre.
But he's said it was never his fault, it wasn't his personal finances but the bankruptcy of companies his name was on. So let's hope he does not run the country the way he runs his businesses.
I'm a for-real doctor, but you wouldn't want me operating on you.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Engineering has many specialised fields.
Generally stating you are simply an engineer is a broad statement and not necessarily stating you are qualified in the specific subject you are talking about.
For example, an engineer could be (say) a software engineer, chemical engineer, civil engineer, mechanical engineer, electrical engineer etc.Only some of these would be directly qualified to talk about traffic light timing
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
That's not a medical opinion, but a complaint.
It's both. (Except in this case the opinion is backed up with formulae that may or may not have been correctly applied.)
Shooting the messenger is a bad policy.
Andrew Wakefield (the UK didn't require certification of doctors until 2009) very much should be shot for the message he propounded.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
The engineering board does one thing, they license engineers. That's it, sending them a letter about anything while claiming in the letter to be an engineer is the equivalent of claiming to be any type of registered professional directly to the people that do the registering. It's beyond strange. This is like going before a judge and claiming to be a lawyer, that'll get you jail and a fine.
But he did claim to be a "doctor" offer a "medical" opinion.
Non sequitur through equivocation.
A doctor can be many things. A PhD in CS is a doctor. A PhD in CS saying "Using meth is bad for you" may be a medical opinion, but not illegal or incorrect.
The "software engineering" licensing movement was created for the same reason other unions and engineering fellowships exist. Their goal is to reduce the allowed workforce to shore up the salaries of those who are currently employed. For example, we don't have enough doctors because they artificially limit the number out of greed. Fewer engineers allowed into the industry means more jobs and money for those who are ushered into the club. It is not actually about safety. I've known "engineers" who had these credentials and then some who aren't worth the paper it is written on. You know who doesn't have these credentials? The same apparently now "non-"engineers who developed Windows and Linux that you are writing your software on top of with your nose held high and using libraries written by.
wow.
He wasn't an engineer. In most states (including his, Oregon), the word "engineer" means something very specific, and there are legal guarantees around it. He was ignorant of those laws and violated them. In return, the state can and does prosecute and convict engineers who are lousy at their jobs (negligent), because it causes building to collapse and water systems to contaminate.
California is rather unique in not defending the word engineer against trespass by amateurs, and as a result has a lot of shitty engineering (often literally). A typical IT project is an example, but also crumbling roads, blown-out budgets, failing water pipes from Hetch-Hetchy, etc.
Had he simply said the traffic lights are too fast, here's the physics, he'd have been right. But he used a hot-button word and is trying to kill people by appropriating it, so it's much a much bigger deal to the engineering board than trying to kill people with short yellows.
As a separate issue though, the engineering board, composed of engineers, *should* probably be prosecuted under those same state laws for the felonious engineering incompetence of the short yellow lights.
I would write: "I hold a degree in engineering."
And I really would, because I do.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
To be fair, if he's really an engineer in North America, it's mind-boggling how he didn't already know this.
doesn't surprise me..Oregon is full of libtard cucks. Look at all the low lifes in Portland. Traffic is another joke. ODOT is a joke. ODOT should hire some engineer's.
I don't know if it's different in the states, but in Canada if you have an engineering degree but haven't passed your professional engineering certification (which requires 4 years of experience working under a professional engineer in your discipline) you can't actually call yourself an engineer. You can swear your oath and call yourself an "engineer in training" or EIT, and you can wear your iron ring, but you're not technically an engineer yet.
Oregon knows full well that some yellow lights are way too short. But like every other state that uses red light cameras to bolster their budget, they have listened to the red light camera company and lowered the timing on certain yellow lights (at some intersections far below Federal recommendations). This has nothing to do with public safety and everything to do with revenue collection. This fine is nothing more than an attempt to silence (similar in concept to a SLAPP lawsuit used by unethical corporations) a "troublemaker" threatening a source of state revenue (plus kickbacks).
I am someone who writes traffic signal firmware that is running all across the US, who also has to do the timings, debug the traffic cabinet hardware, design interface circuits, get the comm going back to central, set up the networks -- the whole shebang really. And you know who can't do that? The licensed traffic and civil engineers I work with, who call constantly for tutorials on the systems they sign off on. But what am I? Not the engineer evidently, just the guy who knows the engineering as opposed to the guy with the license who pretends to.
Now I fully understand the need for licensing -- you need someone accountable on paper. But I have also seen first hand the corrupt system that awards those licenses, and have no use for the chummy brotherhood of know-nothings that keep it intact. To those real engineers who are also PE's I apologize and salute you.
Look, we can argue over the rightness of the board's decision, but unless they made some mistake themselves, it is likely they will prevail, and even if they lose, the lawyers will be the only ones to win.
But here's the thing, Oregon is a state with the initiative process, heavily so, so if any Oregon Residents disagree with this decision, they can and should act directly to effect change.
For anyone else? Write the state of Oregon to complain. The governor, legislators, judges, drop a mail to them. Make them spend a few hours dealing with it. And include the complaints about the short yellow lights.
If we're going on boycott North Carolina over their laws, we can do the same to Oregon. Grass Seed will be a bit difficult though, nobody else seems to grow it.
The difference I think is that the general public expects "lawyer" to have passed the bar, and "doctor of medicine" to have obtained a license. It's not as common for the general public to assume that an "engineer" has been licensed by the state. The public is not being fooled and the person claiming to be an engineer is not trying to fool anyone. I agree that the licensing boards are upset that all of this is being watered down over time so that engineer is now a generic term, but that's the way it's been going.
BTW, to clear up confusion, I'm not a Civil Engineer. I was just picking on those guys since they seem to make up the bulk of P.E.s
I am a Software Engineer. (Feel the burn--how dare he call himself an Engineer.)
Most states have some protection around advertising yourself as a "Professional Engineer" (PE) or similar term that implies you are licensed by the state to provide engineering services to the public. Only a few states apply this sort of orthodoxy to the general term "engineer", and the enforcement tends to be pretty lax.
Check on LinkedIn, there are several million people listing themselves as some form of Engineer--while most of them have an engineering degree from an accredited university, the vast majority of them do not have any PE licensure, for the simple reason that in many engineering fields there's just no reason get a state license.
Intel is in Oregon--and they employ thousands of degreed engineers and they definitely aren't PEs. Those job postings are advertised as "engineers" and the employees use the term "engineer" on their business cards and LinkedIn profiles.
This is about a collusion between state government agencies to shut someone up who is attempting to alert the public to one or more agencies' shady practices at the expense of said public.
Or... it's about someone being careless in calling themselves an engineer, and the state fining that person because that's illegal in Oregon? Does it have to be a conspiracy?
You can't even pump your own gas in Oregon - I guess that would make you a petroleum engineer or something...
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
It didn't handle your mother's meatloaf well, did it?
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
After all he wasn't "engineering" anything, so much as making a political statement.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
The licensing requirements are little more than a fundraising tactic by many states wanting to regulate things they are in fact unqualified to regulate. There are certifications, as well as degrees granted by accredited universities that clearly state that a conferee is in fact an engineer by training. Long ago I was encouraged to see a Professional Engineer rating, but after looking into the personal liability one assumes by having a P.E. registration it was deemed to be a bad financial idea. However Oregon is NOT a right to work state and as such this kind of cash extraction goes on without end.
This is bogus. It is completely a question of semantics.
I know dozens of software engineers and sound engineers who advertise their services in Oregon without a license.
This is for a specific type of "engineering" related to surveying.
I know there is a huge "who is an engineer" debate going back probably to the Usenet days but this case is bullshit semantics and could easily get thrown out...it's definitely legal trolling from that Engineering org.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Offering a medical opinion is part of practicing as a medical doctor.
How was this modded insightful?
It should never be illegal to say "You probably have the flu." if you are not a medical doctor.
It should never be illegal to say "That plane is missing half a wing, don't board it!" if you are not an aerospace engineer.
It should never be illegal to say "Yellow lights are too short to stop safely." if you are not a civil engineer.
> The 1st amendment does not legally "protect" you for lying. When you are saying "I'm an engineer", but the law defines
Donald Trump is an asshole and incompetent.
Do you think Trump would consider that statement untrue? A lie? There are all sorts of things that government officials have called "lying" (including the allegation that Clinton had sexual contact with Monica - Hillary called that a lie). Did King George and his government consider the things that Jefferson, Jackson, and Franklin said about him to be true, or would King George say Thomas Jefferson was lying?
It is precisely BECAUSE government defines words and tries to define truth that freedom of speech MUST protect statements that the politicians consider "lying". If you are only allowed to say things that the government agrees are true, that's not freedom of speech at all.
Think about that for a moment. The two options are:
A) Free speech only means you can say things that the government agrees are true.
B) Free speech includes the right to say things that the government doesn't consider true (including 9/11 theories).
Option A is no freedom at all - even without the first amendment, the government wouldn't prosecute anyone for statements they agree with. If 1st amendment only covered government-approved "truth", it would be pointless to even write the amendment down at all.
There is, however, a slight glimmer of truth to what you've said. The first amendment prohibits *government* from making speech a *crime*. It does not prohibit a private person from suing for damages caused by libelous speech. In a libel suit, truth is a defense. So truth matters - but that's in a civil suit, where some other citizen is suing based on damages - the first amendment's restriction on the government doesn't directly apply.
That's why most states don't have a criminal libel offense, and those that do rarely prosecute, because in most instances prosecution by the government is barred by the first amendment.
Yeah, I've worked with a few of those "5 year equivalent engineers" in Canada, and its not even close to working with a real 4-year schooled engineer. Inevitably they lack depth, and I (or someone else) ends up cleaning up their mess when the fuck up. And they always fuck up.
They all think being self-taught was just as good as slugging it out through 4yrs of statics, dynamics, thermodynamics, calculus, and differential equations while competing ferociously with peers for grades - but it just isn't. They just lack deep critical thinking skills, make short-sighted mistakes, or are too lazy to grind out proper solutions.
But hey, maybe you that 1 in a 10,000 special snowflake who isn't deluded with self-grandeur. I've heard about such people, but never actually met one.
Not quite true. He has a personal stake in these. That's why he is in so much debt. It's KNOWN that he owns DeutchesBank 400 million USD. That's only known because DB was busted by the feds. P.S. The president of the US side of DeutchesBank went to a new position as the president of the Bank of Cyprus, a bank owned in part by Putin. Guess who else is part owner of the Bank of Cyprus? Trump's Commerce Secretary, Wilbur Ross. Just the tip of the smelly shitpile that is Trump.
When introduced to the language, I suspect (I wasn't there) that it was intended to describe disciplines such as mechanical or perhaps electrical engineering.
... Oh, you mean a *medical* doctor! My PhD is in astrophysics, so no, I can't help deliver your wife's baby... ...
Today, however, we apply this word to many other disciplines, including software development. You say you're a programmer. I say I'm a Software Engineer. Does this mean that if we both did the same role on the same team working for the same company and were based on Oregon, that I would have to pay registration and license fees and you did not? If so, then whilst the law may not be technically wrong, the passage of time has rendered it un-enforceable.
It's a bit like the old music hall joke: "Is there a Doctor in the house?"
It was Cardinal Richelieu who wrote, "Give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to hang him." Oregon are trying to bully people in to silence. Let's hope they don't succeed, for all our sakes.
I'd guess they don't have sanitation engineers in Oregon ? or software engineers ? Do they register train engineers the same as structural engineers ?
https://www.verizon.com/about/...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Are you full on retarded or just didn't read the post above it? Wait don't tell me: both. If you're saying medical doctors don't offer medical opinions you've been smoking some bad bath salts. Probably explains why you haven't seen any doctors about your bath salt problem. Ha ha ha.
Some lawsuits in the US are like Alien vs. Predator. Lack of common sense, lots of heavy weaponry and bony jaws. Safe to watch from a distance, with popcorn.
17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
The letters from the board states that merely using "I am an engineer" in any form violates the quoted statute and hence necessitates the fine.
Are we (humans) nuts?
This case better end up in court and be judged be a H. Sapience person!
Perhaps he should use "I am a doctor of physics, math and reason"?
4wdloop
Were you born this stupid, or did it take work? He wasn't practicing as an engineer, therefore the law doesn't apply. Stating you're an engineer doesn't mean you're practicing.
If had merely sent his petition to the government a a citizen like you and me, that would be exercising First Amendment rights. However, he claimed authority in stating he was making his petition as an engineer, i.e. that his pleading should carry more weight than a regular citizen, as opposed to being considered on the merits of the argument he made.
Which in most parts of the world means that you are an Engineer.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
There is a particular certification called PE, or Professional Engineer. Before that the Certification of EF, Engineering Fundamentals has to be obtained. Only then are you allowed to claim the title of Engineer and work for a company doing engineering type work. However this is very different from PE. In order to become a PE, one has to have at least 5 years of experience in the field and pass the PE certification requirements This is after obtaining an Bachelor of Science in Engineering, but EF is usually obtained concurrently with the degree. Once PE is obtained, the PE can now certify designs and plans, however, it comes upon the penalty of liability if the design fails due to poor work.
A Professional Engineer isn't just someone with an engineering degree from a University. It is well above and beyond that and is more akin to a Master's Degree, or an RN certification for someone in the Medical Field moving up the ranks. There are also certifications that go above and beyond PE as well. I'm not sure I want someone who has only been doing "engineering" for 5 years certified as a PE. That's like telling a draftsman he can now certify plans as an architect. There is an entire legal and liability structure associated to these titles and they shouldn't be given without careful consideration.
I am a professional engineer licensed in Oregon. This is very typical for OSBEELS to do. The term "engineer" has very specific legal meaning, and in most states it implies registration and license as a professional engineer. The reason that Oregon and other states vigorously pursue people who claim to be engineers without licensure is to protect the public from those who claim to be engineers but do not have the education or experience to be admitted to the profession. Oregon happens to pursue these types of issues more vigorously than other states I have been licensed in, but this is nothing new. The claim that his first amendment rights are being violated is laughable (but IANAL). He is free to make his case, but he cannot call himself an "engineer" without being licensed.
I am an Engineer godamnit, MY LIFE HAS VALUE!!
Like many things in life this is a lot less white and black the more you read up on it, though there's still probably something to be said here. The headline is meant to grab attention to increase page hits (almost click-baity imo). It seems clear to me that had he not followed up his original email he would not have been fined. And it seems to have added weight to their decision that he was practicing engineering in their state, although as an audio engineer. It seems ridiculous that some (perhaps many) have seen the word "Engineer" as being magical, and only those with that magical title can practice "math" as though it's advanced magic that only learned sorcerers should be playing with. Math is harmless, it's poor implementation in structures and tangible items is what can be dangerous. I see a compelling need to have a law that prohibits a person from going around saying "I'm an electrical engineer" and soliciting work under that title when they are not. At the same time, however, a person who drives a train is an engineer, in a far more true sense of the word. What Mats has done is very gray. I won't be sad if Mats wins his lawsuit against the state, I also won't be surprised if they prevail as the law is there, he did push the issue, and he did seem to be practicing engineering without a license (in his professional time as an acoustical engineer). Also it should be strongly noted that in his original email he was soliciting work- he said it would be nice to be paid for this work he was doing and asked if they had an open position. After insulting their work it seems. Not the brightest job application...
Why can't it be both? Those organisations may well help to protect society, but that doesn't mean they can't also be corrupt and self serving.
and come home to Scandinavia, where your engineering talents will be appreciated, and the government won't treat you as a threat and a criminal.
Kind of sad to take that kind of an attitude. As I mentioned, universities weren't capable of much more than "Heath Kit" lessons of the era - Yes, I did do some study at university prior to getting a job in a lab, even if I never completed a course. Meanwhile, mid-80's I was already building computers from scratch, writing the OS firmware and then finding ways to improve on the architecture of the era.
What exactly do you think I was going to learn at a university that I wasn't expected to already know in the field? The head of department at the university I did briefly attend had already provided me with exemptions in every electronic and computer hardware related unit that was a part of the course. Even they didn't expect me to demonstrate any further proficiency in those areas.
I get that you were trying for a mix of condescending and insulting with your 1 in 10,000 remark, but in reality, anyone who continues working as an engineer for five years in industry, without being fired for being incompetent, has demonstrated they know all of the appropriate calculations necessary to do their job. At that point, it's pretty much 1:1 and the kinds of mistakes that get made are usually the same kind of mistakes that even a uni-trained engineer will make.
Even now, I still have to verify engineering estimates and ensure that they are correct, and it's rare not to find engineering errors in a large project - some big enough to prevent project success.
Being self taught wasn't instead of learning - and if you like the subject, it's never a hard slug. Being self-taught was the price of entry just to get a job in some of those industries in the early days. Learning on the job and being taught on the job both occur from that point on. It's just like university, except the passing mark on a project is 100% or find another job. Or, to para-quote NASA, Failure is not an option.
The Australian government recognized that 5 years of practical on-the-job training is as good as 4 years of university training plus 4 years of on-the-job training. Because it takes 4 years to train someone to the level than an employer will even look at them. So allowing an additional year for a non-graduate engineer to be trained at an accelerated pace is reasonable.
After all, simply having the title "engineer" isn't sufficient - you have to be doing the same work as a graduate engineer would be expected to do. It's not like I got a free ride or anything. Some would regard having to complete the equivalent of four years of university in a single year to be even more onerous.
I'm not the only one either - I've worked with a lot of other non-graduate engineers as well as graduate engineers and they were all at a very high level. It's not uncommon, but maybe you just got a bad batch up in Canada or something.
Here's the qualification requirements;
3.2 Engineering stream
Experienced engineer means a Professional engineer with the undermentioned qualifications engaged in any particular employment where the adequate discharge of any portion of the duties requires qualifications of the employee as (or at least equal to those of) a member of Engineers Australia. The qualifications are as follows:
(a) membership of Engineers Australia;or
(b) having graduated in a four or five year course at a university recognised by Engineers Australia,four years’experience on professional engineering duties since becoming a Qualified engineer;or
(c) not having so graduated,five years of such experience.
Graduate engineer means a person who is the holder of a university degree (four or five year course) recognised by Engineers Australia or is the holder of a degree,diploma or other testamur which:
(d) has been issued by a technical university,an institute of technology,a European technical high school (technische hochschule) or polytechnic or other similar educational establishment;and
(e) is recognised by Engineers Australia as attaining a standard similar to a university degree;
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
The yellow lights are short to generate revenue, just like traditional speed traps. There's probably tens of thousands of practicing engineers in Hillsboro and Beaverton working for various tech companies.
You ass. You are assuming the licensing board has jurisdiction over the man's speech, which it does not. Skulluck the beaurocrats, don't cheer them on.
I fear I need to be a registered Social Engineer in order to post on Slashdot.
Worst. Signature. Ever.
Funny how you can be a pretend doctor, and actually kill people, and that's just fine.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
But in Oregon you're not allowed to say or write that without license, if the board gets its way, which it doesn't.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
How to become a billionaire in 4 easy steps:
1. avoid paying taxes
2. become millionaire
3. bribe legislators to write tax extempts
4. become billionaire
"... the Land of the Free, and The Home of the Brave!"
Ha ha, Land of the Free, yeah! I'm pretty glad I don't live there.
Credentialists gonna credentialize
If my daddy is a billionaire and I inherit his billions, does that make me a winner?
His daddy was a winner, Donald is just lucky.
Do you understand his idiot sons will also become billionaires?
Will that make them winners in your eyes?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
The problem with automatic certification is that it totally muddies the water. Just because someone has worked as an engineer for 5 years, it doesn't mean they could pass a licensing exam or are qualified to work on things where lives are at stake. Hopefully they still make that distinction somehow.
It appears that everyone is missing the point. Here is a quote from the original post:
"The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying [stating]: "ORS 672.020(1) prohibits the practice of engineering in Oregon without registration ...."
The fact that the Board lumps "engineering" and "land surveying" together is the key to understanding what went wrong. Land surveying is an old profession with lots of archaic/arcane terminology, e.g. "land man." Thus "engineer" means something specific in this context, something that the land surveying community interprets in its own way, possibly someone who has some specified above-average skill set in the field of land surveying. It is common for civil engineers to be licensed. It is also common for people who design wiring for commercial buildings to be licensed, and it is common to call them engineers even though they never took Calc 1. So it is likely that land surveying "engineers" are required to be licensed as well even though they might be no more engineers than the person designing wiring.
Whoever it was on the Board of Examiners who caused this ruckus needs to be kicked in the ass. Does s/he really think that every engineer who works for Intel in Oregon is breaking the law?
His Daddy was a multi-millionaire
His Daddy lent him a few million to get started
He was a Billionaire before his daddy passed away and split his multi-million inheritance between the Donald and his siblings.
Daddy did not make him a Billionaire, Daddy did not Give him Billions. Daddy did give him a very big leg up to multi-millionaire status, The Donald did the rest.
But will I get fined for pointing out that someone got hit by a bus and died?
> Uh. What does Trump have to do with this?
Insofar as the "Trump" trademark has become a generic catchall for anything of abounding and asinine stupidity, so without merit that merely observing the item renders you more stupid and less objective than you were beforehand.
Moronic nonsensical prosecution reeking of malice and capriciousness? Yeah that guy got Trumped.
Because only the engineers registered in Oregon are true engineers.
Unfortunately, it's way too late now...
Well there are more reasons for that hope. Contrary to what so many people believe - being president is nothing like heading a company, and being good at one does not suggest you'll be good at the other, indeed the two jobs are almost exact opposites in the skills they require. I'll run through the differences just now - but it's worth noting that the republicans don't seem to recognize the importance of those differences and keep running businessmen for president. 3 of their last 5 candidates were businessmen - and to add injury to insult, they aren't aren't even good at picking businessmen since only one of the three Mitt Romney could be called a successful businessman.
Why being president is nothing like running a company: ... we're not his customers, we are his BOSSES.
- A business owner is risking his own money, the president is managing OUR money
- A business owner has customers, the president does not - those people out there using government services, paying taxes,
- A business owner has near absolute power over business decisions. A president is limited by checks and balances including congress and the courts.
- A business owner can make decisions single-handedly about things like spending and budget priorities, a president gets no real say in that - Congress writes the budget. He can tell them what he would like, but they have no obligation to care. If a CEO and his accountant do not agree on which departments should get budget priority, there is very little risk of the entire company shutting down for weeks - this has happened to government more than once.
- A business owner competes with his rivals in the market, but they take great care not to let each other know their plans and desires. A president has his competition INSIDE THE SAME ORGANISATION and has to negotiate with them on things they don't agree with - giving them some of what they want in return for some of what he wants and cooperate with them on things that they agree on and sometimes just ignore all their beliefs to do the basic jobs of governance together.
- If a business reduces it's expenses, there is almost zero risk of reducing it's income through the exact same action - this is almost ALWAYS the outcome when a government cuts expenses (because a government's income comes from taxing other people's income and government expenses ARE other people's income, and the income of a bunch of people who have never done business with government is reduced too - because the people who do business with government cannot buy as much from them anymore). As a general rule, austerity (especially in a recession) is the economic equivalent of saving money on your heating bill by burning your paycheck for warmth.
I could go on and on but I think I've made my point, frankly what I find myself entirely incapable of doing - is finding a SINGLE thing the two jobs actually have in common - a single overlapping skill between them. A good janitor is MORE qualified to president than the CEO of the company he cleans for - because a good janitor is good at understanding and executing the wishes of his superiors- and the president has a LOT of superiors, 320 million of them in fact.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Total space nut here - please tell us more. I would love to know :) :P
Assuming you're allowed to of course. Otherwise I'm going to choose to believe it's the station-holding reaction wheels for an extremely powerful spysat
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Interestingly, this article claims he is a licenced electrical engineer, but licenced in another state. Give that the case notes that he can claim to be an engineer if he is licenced anywhere else, in the US or overseas, it should be an open and shut case.
I would bet its more of a Hanlons' Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor) as applied to governmental bureaucracy. In essence you're implying way more intelligence to the organization than it deserves. If it had any intelligence it would have known the can of worms it was opening and decided to not open it.
On the other hand if the individual had been selling his services as an engineer in a location he wasn't licensed then they would be correct.
Corporations tend to use the phrase "Engineering Representative" or similar. They are claiming you represent a department that does engineering, not that you are one.
"I'm and engineer. And a rocket scientist."
But learned English from the back of a cornflake box?
Very strange that Oregon does not differ between "engineer" (which is extremely generic) and Licensed Engineer (which is very specific especially if you state which license you have). ;-)
In this case he is an electronic engineer, which means that he should have the mathematical tools and "general analytical skills" to do the calculations. This is relevant to judge his arguments even if he (presumably) hasn't studied mechanics in school. And I believe that this is his point, not that he should be believed without any assessment. As an example, I have a PhD, which means that I am (or at least should be) very skilled in a topic. Legally I can put a PhD after my name in any context (at least in Sweden). But that of course doesn't mean everyone should trust everything I say since I have been known to be wrong sometimes (unlike some presidents
even though that necessitates a transaction of some sort.
Errr, where is that written? Practicing engineering can be done for free without transaction. The difference here is the target audience and the recommendation.
His analysis wasn't some idle chitchat online, it was an analysis combined with the authority of being an engineer, sent directly to the group responsible for managing the equipment.
Where you need a permit to do just about everything
As the 1st Ammendment trumps State law then Oregon should lose the case but IANAL (at least in America) and I'm an Engineer (CENG) by education and profession but there is no way in Hell that I'm ever gonna stump up dues to keep my job. That is not a free society.
It is any wonder that the rest of the world looks at the USA and goes 'sheesh?' and they put up with this crap?
Any society that imposes laws like this is doomed to die a long slow death.
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
I am a doctor. How much is that fine? Or do you plan to extradite me and throw me in jail for stating my profession even if I don't live/work in your state?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Agree with your sentiment, but he could have made his case without trying to support it from a position of authority by using the title "engineer". If he was doing as he claims ("I'm not practicing engineering, I'm just using basic mathematics and physics, Newtonian laws of motion, to make calculations and talk about what I found."), then there was no reason to repeatedly claim the title "engineer" in his extended correspondence with the board.
Oh, whoops, did the flamebait summary leave that little detail out? This wasn't "an email". It was a long and protracted argument with the engineering board about how to do a particular set of calculations to determine yellow light timings, in addition to a publicity campaign on 60 minutes and an attempted lawsuit against the city. So yeah, the board is jerking off with their legal move to get him out of their hair, but he is doing a bit more than writing a blog or publishing academic research.
...will be next. "You can only transfer knowledge about Pi or the Pythagorean theorem in a cave, while an ox is being sacrificed."
"The wisdom of the Patriarchs was that they *knew* they were fools." --Master Foo
I'm not an engineer. I'm not a rocket scientist. But I am a rock scientist.
Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
I am NOT a PE, though I did pass the EIT exam.
I studied ASE and had 2 man-rated vehicles in space with my work on them. Now only 1 remains. I was a rocket scientist, but stopped performing that work in the mid-1990s.
Very few "engineers" have any use to be licensed. Basically, EE, ChemE, CompE, ASE, and many MEs have zero reason to be licensed. The licensed PEs are for buildings, bridges and other public-use works. I've met 1 PE around NASA ... he changed careers and allowed the license to expire.
There is no license for software engineering.
There is no license for aircraft engineering.
There is no license for spacecraft engineering.
The EIT had a software engineering section on the exam - it was a joke.
There wasn't anything aerospace related on the exam I took. Sure, I could design a wing or a table or a house because the fundamentals are the fundamentals, but the FAA has aircraft certification requirements that go well beyond what any static building is required to pass. Those are different industries and need different rules. Billions of people go into unique buildings every day, but very few fly on unique aircraft. There are less than 500 types of aircraft flying today. That's only 500 different designs, not billions. Perhaps 50 of those aircraft are "experimental" AND carry more than 1 person.
He can post whatever he wants, but in a lot of states, you can't use the term engineer without registering (and folks, this is why the title "Software Engineer" is Bull). Basically the state wants you to have your Professional Engineering license, which requires certain schooling, and then taking the tests. Joke? Unless you are doing civil engineering, it is generally not REQUIRED, but you can't call yourself an Engineer. You may have a PhD in say Electrical Engineering, but you can't use the term "Engineer"
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
In most states, the "practice" and "title" of Engineer is restricted to those who hold an appropriate license from the state. However, there is what's called the "industrial exemption" which allows the "practice" of engineering for a "industrial concern" (aka a business, the primary function of which is NOT engineering, but, say, manufacturing) and those businesses are free to use the title engineer for their employees.
There's some more subtleties in some states (California) in that there are specific Engineering titles that are restricted vs practicing. I'm a licensed Electrical Engineer, so I cannot hold out that I am a Petroleum Engineer or Traffic Engineer.
Wow, I had no idea you could get rich without income! What witchraft is this?
TL:DR;, Engineer is a title, granted by the state, not something you get for having an Engineering Degree
Except that Oregon has it simple, you have to be a LPE - Licensed Professional Engineer. That is a NATIONAL license. You take 4 years of approved schooling, and then sit the two LPE exams, and you are an LPE. Interestingly MOST of the exam is Civil Engineering (things like slump of concrete)
They are not the only state that registers engineers, and almost all of them it as simple as be an LPE, and register
Were you see this - real example. Want to put a ham radio tower in your yard? SOME municipalities require the drawings for installation to be "wet stamped" - aka the fact that the Mfg of the tower has down all the numbers that the design is good to XXX, and that the footing should be X sized, they require an LPE from that state to review the drawings, and stamp the drawings with his OK (they can not be photocopied) - aka they are "wet stamped"
Thing is, when an LPE signs off on plans, he is taking the legal responsibilities for those plans. Things go wrong, it is HIS/HER (I'll use he, as the vast majority of LPEs are male) ass on the line for lawsuits and possible criminal responsibility, NOT the company he works for!
This by the way is why we are not "software engineers". If we WERE, it would require a certified Engineer to sign off (first we'd have to agree to what a Certified Software Engineer IS), and that Engineer would be taking legal responsibility for any flaws in the software (not the company, although they may provide his insurance as a benefit)
It is a bit like being a "Member of the Bar" - the degree doesn't mean crap till they are admitted to their local Bar - and you can be Disbarred, and you can't call yourself a lawyer or practice law until you are a member of the bar - You'd have a law degree (JD) but not be a lawyer
BTW, where my daughter is going to school, as an example you can take
Mechanical Engineering - which is recognized by some large number of states, and allows for you to sit LPE
Mechanical Engineering Technology. Only a very small number of states allow this one for you to be called an Engineer.
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
such *professional services* or creative work as consultation, investigation, "TESTIMONY". You provided the snippet to support Oregon State.
I've always considered the terms "Software Engineer" and "Software Developer" to be interchangeable. But as there does not exist a PE certification for "Software Engineering" it would seem anyone using the former title in Oregon is an obligate criminal.
I'm now wondering to what extent local laws in all areas affect how software jobs are advertised and executed...?
Most if not all states require the same thing: 6 years experience as an engineer under the supervision of a licensed engineer, some years can be replaced by education from a school with an approved (ABET) curriculum. You have to take two day long tests a year apart - first one is on "fundamentals of engineering" (aka EIT) - second one is in your speciality. You have to have 4 references (some of whom must be licensed engineers) who will attest to your skill, knowledge, competency, and moral character. The tests are developed by a national organization called NCEES.
The folks on the Board of Professional Engineering and Land Surveyors are, for the most part, actual practicing Engineers and Land Surveyors.
It is non trivial to become licensed - In California, the pass rate on the test is about 60-70% for first timers, down in the 20s and 30s for repeat takers (yeah, if you fail the first time, you're probably just not cut out for it..unless you were sick on the day or something)
Back in the Sixties, my California employer opened a new operation in another state where it was the first major aerospace activity. A press announcement said it would bring several hundred engineers to town, and the local engineering society made pretty much the same complaint as in TFA.
We sent them a letter saying "Sorry, we don't want to infringe on the law here. Would you please send us 300 membership application forms, 300 copies of the sample P.E. exam, and the schedule for your next officer election?"
Never heard back.
Agreed, and being licensed as an engineer by some board in Oregon does not make one an engineer. Would be nice to have someone from MIT or Caltech to go and check their licensing requirements, and subject the board to a simple test to see if they know some engineering to begin with
Don't know anything about being a licensed engineer in the USA, do you? Most states do require an engineering degree from an ABET-certified university, very few will let you get a PE license without that but then you need 15 years of experience rather than 8 without having taken the FE exam or 4 if you did. Some states like Illinois are more restrictive in that you need to have passed the FE before even qualifying for the PE exam, then you need the 4 years under other PEs (who have to sign off on it) to apply for the license.
Say something bad about government, and they will come after you. YOU WILL COMPLY..."or else".
The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli
The very next sentence after the one you quoted is:
--
Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer
--
Note the "or". Engineer *or* registered ...
Bad law, IMHO, but law. Except to whatever extent the first and fourteenth amendments bar the state from enacting such a law. The Oregon statute is null and void when applied in a way the conflicts with the first amendmwnt.
I am a Meat Popsicle.
Because you know how this could end.
Men with guns.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Is the imbecile who sent the fine won't be fired.
It's not really that imbecile's fault - indeed they might not even agree with the law but still feel they have a duty to enforce it. The problem here is the legal protections engineers have managed to get in place to protect their jobs. If you want to see a really appalling example of this just look to Canada where engineering is operated like a medieval guild where everything is regulated; only existing guild members are allowed to train you and in some provinces making something like an electronic circuit means that you have to be a guild member. It's pathetic to see this in the modern world...and also really annoying if you are a physicist and equally if not actually far better qualified for some of the "protected" jobs - particularly when one of those jobs is teaching engineers physics!
Inheritance is income. Sort of.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
If you use 'this' in a C program as a variable and then try to compile it with a C++ compiler,
it makes confusion and a grumpy c++ compiler.
You could file a 1st Amendment claim against the compiler maker, but a more useful response is to use another identifier instead of 'this'.
This guy is not too bright if he really things he has a case.
'Engineer' is a reserved word to mean somebody with an engineering license.
It comes with specific responsibilities to the holder, mostly concerning liability.
This distinction is useful to the general public so they can find someone to design a safe structure and know who to sue if it doesn't work out.
If the general public could tell if the person had the needed skills, they likely would not need an engineer in the first place.
So the term, with the distinction, is useful.
Given the world thinks the term is more generic, I think the Professional engineers should pick another reserved word.
"Professional or Registered Engineer" comes to mind'
The place to fix this is in the legislature, not in the courts.
Disclosure: I had a PE, but gave it up because in the profession was clueless for the kinds of engineering (electronics and s/w) I was doing and none of my customers cared.
I'm all for restricting the use of credentials - like 'Doctor', for instance
My chiropractor thanks you.
In most (all?) states, Boards/Commissions can regulate LICENSED entities only. They can reprimand, fine in some cases, revoke licenses; BUT they must ask their Attorney General to enforce violations of law outside the Board's/Commission's jurisdiction, including "acting as a licensee". These organizations will sometimes exceed their statutory authority through ignorance of their state's laws. Slap down overreach where it exists...
Or give legal advice somewhere you are not licenced to practice law... Plenty of examples.
However I think the distinction here was if he was actually giving professional advice. In reality he was just a citizen complaining about street lights.
The association could have simply said like; while we do not consider you to be a professional engineer seeing as you are not licenced to practice, have paid any professional fees to our association, or registered as an engineer within this state, we appreciate your concerns and will consider your input, thank you. Then promptly threw his complaint in the garbage like a normal person. Fining him 500$ bucks is a bit on the nose.
For the interested, the Institute of Justice does a lot of stuff like this. (I don't work for them, I just like their work).
They do a lot of anti-licensing work, and they seem to be very successful at it: http://ij.org/report/license-t...
In many states, you need a license to braid hair or install windows. Hell, in many states, it's easier to become licensed to be an EMT (two months of training) than hairdresser (you need to go to cosmetology school for two years)!
It's a not a red vs. blue thing: http://ij.org/report/license-t... Many deep red southern states have very strict licensing requirements too.
It's really an example of regulatory capture which the US of A is a prime example of. And I say that as a very liberal person. The Institute of Justice convincingly shows how the licensing hurts lower-income people the most, mostly cuz they can't afford the lawyers or schooling that licensing usually requires.
Just like entering a subway station and yelling "I have a bomb" has nothing to do with free speech. You will and SHOULD be arrested.
In both cases, you are committing something illegal (although only one is criminal). Oregon is free to reserve the title engineer to licensed engineers. This is not a free speech violation.
It is illegal in most, if not all, states to practice engineering or advertise yourself as an engineer without the appropriate license/registration to do so. That is what he effectively was doing. He was providing a "professional" opinion on a technical matter by holding himself out as an engineer. "I am an engineer and the yellow lights are too short" was the crux of his argument. Trying to sidestep the issue by saying that he wasn't offering an engineering opinion is dishonest.
The law says that to call yourself an engineer, registration is required. It is a protected term. The rules are rightfully stringent for the more mature branches of engineering that can affect public safety. Do you really want someone with absolutely no experience in traffic design saying that they are an engineer and they know best? I don't.
If you think this is a free speech issue, then I'm a doctor, a police officer, and an attorney.
- a registered civil and structural engineer of 33 years-
I was wondering why there was all that blank space there now.
How did they think this was going to go down when the internet got wind of this?
Clearly their $500 fine was the fiscal equivalent of "Shut the fuck up!"
Gladly, the internet is going to teach them an ugly lesson about being assholes...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
The whole PE thing is ridiculous. I hold a BS in Physics, two Master's Degrees in Engineering and a PhD in Applied Physics.
My master's degrees are from MIT where I taught students (both undergraduates and graduate students) circuit design and controls, among other things. I find it ironic that they can go on to get a PE more easily than I can, because your undergraduate degree determines in part eligibility requirements and so on.
The whole this is a sham, if you ask me.
He should just publish his findings in a journal. As long as you've passed peer review, no one cares what your title is, or if you've registered to use that title.
They appear to also license architects. So, if my company sends me, a solutions architect (my job title), to Oregon I get fined for using it without a license?
Yeah, let them try that. We've got BIG lawyers.
I am Homer of Borg, resistance is - Ooo Donuts!
Umm...you DO know the difference between Wealth and income...right?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
".. It's an instance of a licensing board trying to suppress speech."
Nope. It's an instance of a licensing board telling someone you can't call yourself an engineer unless you're licensed by the state or provincial licensing body. I'm a member of the Professional Engineers of Ontario (http://peo.on.ca/), and therefore I can legally call myself an engineer.
If some dude wants to write to the government about traffic lights, be my guest -- but he cannot call himself an engineer.
If you were a doctor and wrote someone an email about a particular practice (NOT a particular patient) would you be practicing medicine? I hardly think so.....
love is just extroverted narcissism
Right. You are NOT a lawyer, but you are free to represent yourself. It is only practicing law if you do things for a client.
You can be an engineer without practicing engineering. You can be a Doctor without practicing medicine. A title doesn't mean anything when it comes to practicing a trade.
You cannot practice medicine without being a doctor. And in Oregon, you cannot practice engineering without being an engineer.
You cannot claim you are a doctor, practicing or not, without the credentials.
You cannot claim you are a lawyer, representing yourself or not, without being a member of the bar.
Listen up buddy, you're not a rocket scientist until Oregon says you're a rocket scientist.
Essentially it's a verbal shorthand for "Yes, I'm not just some schlub, I DO know what I'm talking about."
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Do 'electronics engineer'(s) (his words) need a ticket in Oregon? As you say, the more mature branches have stricter rules.
In any case he was spouting off outside his specialty, doesn't mean he was wrong.
Engineering (Electrical) school grad, but 99% software, hence never took the EIT much less got a PE. There was no 'software engineer' PE exam until I had been working for decades.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
We don't give our physicians MDs - which is a very high academic qualification, > Ph.D.
That is a NATIONAL licence.
Not quite. If you have license to practice in Oregon, that's the only state in which you can practice engineering. If you're registered in one state, you may be able to transfer your license through comity between the states, but that's not assured. For example, in Alaska, you also have to pass a class in Arctic Engineering to obtain the PE here, even if you're registered in Oregon. Washington requires that you work for longer under the supervision of another engineer than most other states. California requires that civil engineers pass additional exams covering seismic principles and engineering surveying.
The NCEES maintains, if you wish them to, a record of your licensure, including college transcripts, exam results, work experience, et c. that can make registering in multiple states easier.
The two exams that you have to take are the FE (Fundamentals of Engineering), and the PE (Professional Engineering) exams.
i'am a berliner
Stupidity is non partisan, as evidenced by the current occupant of the white house. Besides, we have no idea of the political affiliation of the people involved - but of course, this has no bearing on it - going back to my first point.
Although I lean liberal, I grew up in a very conservative area. Many of my friends and family are quite conservative, but I respect there their differing opinions, and for the most part, they respect mine.
The point of our democracy is that we allow for disagreement, and arrive at laws via discussion. The current climate of bashing "the other side" is counterproductive, and leads to an erosion of democracy - but, I suppose that may be your goal.
Actually in the eyes of the public and law it does. Also, the entire board is made of up valid P.E. holders in almost every state as far as I know (I think it may be required in most) and that requires them to pass the F.E. exam, the P.E. exam, and regularly resubmit documentation (think its every two years) showing they have furthered their engineering knowledge in a meaningful way (University classes, etc.) in order to renew their P.E. These are not just some bureaucrats that decide who is and who isn't given a license these are actually people within the fields. Most, if not all, would easily destroy any simple test you put before them.
So, given this scenario, is it legitimate for the wider internet to consider that something is fundamentally wrong in Oregon ? I.e. Is the brand Oregon devalued by such acts?
Requiem for the American Dream
He complained as a citizen with training to be an engineer.
I live in Oregon and our bureaucracy is a nightmare. Instead of taking offense at the man calling himself an engineer, they should do their jobs. I'd like to see the responsible person sacked.
Losing republicans nuke the justice bench so that the winning democrat can't get a seat. If it had been a democrat losing...?
You're just bullshitting, kid. Meaningless whining.
This sounds more like someone who was looking for a means to retaliate because you think someone is a shithead for challenging your decisions. Respect my author-itie! Shameful.
We'll make great pets
Does this apply to software engineers as well? What about a custodial or maintenance engineer? I mean, it's one thing if you're portraying yourself as an engineer to clients or the public for securing a job *in engineering*. That could be construed as a consumer protection. This is just completely idiotic.
Are you a registered or licensed Engineer? If not, don't call yourself an engineer, game over.
Thank you for the correction - I more meant that the LPE exams are "Nationwide", but then you have to register for each state - My bad
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Since the engineering board in Oregon said Jarlstrom should not be free to publish or present his ideas about the fast-turning yellow traffic lights
Really? They said he "should not be free to publish or present his ideas"? Who to?
It's the "I'm an engineer" statement they're taking issue with, not any of his findings.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Frankly, for using his job to create the false impression he's an authority on something completely unrelated - he deserves what he gets.
Doesn't matter if it is considered part of the profession of engineering or not. It's First Amendment protected speech:
You don't have to be a licensed engineer to have a grievance concerning the length of a yellow light.
Not to detract from the overall quality of your post, but a business owner's customers are his bosses too, in much the same way that the electorate are the President's bosses: they're the people who ultimately pay him, and he only gets to keep the job so long as he makes them happy. A business owner who pisses off all his customers soon finds himself unemployed, as a business with no customers is no business.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The first job of any good president is to get elected. Donald Trump made a better president than any of the people running against him because he actually made president. Be salty all you want but at the least Donald Trump could fulfill the FIRST and most important presidential job which is to GET ELECTED. Oh yeah one more thing, Donald Trump owns a store worth more than Mitt Romney so if business is about making money then I think he has him beat by a long shot. If business is not about making money but about some bull shit imaginary criteria you have made up, then congratulations, Mitt Romney was better at some imaginary race no one cares about.
The question I would ask is "Is writing an unsolicited letter to the state engineering board regarding the safety issues resulting from the length of a yellow traffic light considered part of the profession of engineering?"
That is a great question and I would take it a step further and add semantics to it as well. Was he qualifying his knowledge in a professional sense or simply as a knowledgeable concerned citizen.
If Joe Bob Hillbilly says writes a letter concerned or upset about the dangers of short yellow lights, it might be easy to dismiss as a know-nothing citizen with an easily dismissed complaint. But if someone suggests they have a qualified knowledge and are simply expressing concern based on that knowledge, maybe it would be taken more seriously. I can totally see that being this guys thought process in writing his letter. He wanted to be heard and he wanted it to be known that his concern comes from qualified knowledge, not in an advisory, consulting, or more literally a practicing manner.
How does this person mention a qualified knowledge without speaking directly to that knowledge that would lead to this sort of fine? Does he leave it vague, simply stating "I have qualified knowledge"? That seems rather ambiguous and again, easily dismissed by those who would prefer to think they know better.
I'm not a medical doctor. If I tell my friend to consider eating less candy because they have diabetes, am I practicing medicine?
Trump is president AND a billionaire, and you're just some loser who whines on the internet.
And there isn't anything else to say.
Your conclusion does not follow the premises provided. You fail Logic 101. And that would explain why you're a Trump apologist.
Especially in electrical engineering, people have been very casual about the use of the word engineer. Legally, when you say you are an engineer it literally means you are a "Professional Engineer" or PE. It's like saying you are a lawyer, JD, or a doctor, MD, and has important legal meaning. Specifically it means that you can be held responsible for your professional opinions and usually carry a bond to insure yourself against liability and that you have passed a competency test (one which I doubt many EEs could actually pass if they are more than a few years out of college.) Representing yourself as an engineer when you are not is, therefore, against the law and for good reason, having to do with expectations of assumption of liability.
There are only 6,863,795,529 types of people in the world.
Umm, so the reason we have a president is so that they can get elected? No. You are confused about what 'job' means. Getting the job is not part of doing the job, whether you're a president or a janitor. You are wrong.
gradually indoctrinate
remember, you aren't an engineer unless some indoctrination machine like a college says you are
As an industry trained engineer, I've been doing engineering for a few decades. From designing computers and electronics in the 80's to performing and presenting current scientific research, it's just been a part of my life, but previously, I could only refer to myself as an "Amateur Engineer". It's not that I'm not trained, I just wasn't trained in a university. Back in the 80's when I learned to design computers ( as an autodidact ) there simply wasn't a university path open for me as I was in high school at the time, and I was taken in by an R&D lab before I could study further and quickly gained skills and experience beyond what the universities were teaching at the time so never went back to university.
Still, not being able to refer to myself as an engineer caused many problem, especially when registering for government projects or work - where are best I could only call myself a "technician" despite having working in many roles where I was the lead engineer and managed other engineers. It made it pretty difficult finding new work at times also.
Now the Australian government has finally recognized that if you work as an engineer, doing the kind of work that an engineer would normally be expected to do, for a period of five cumulative years, you've proven your point and are recognized not only as an experienced engineer, but as a professional engineer.
Anyone might still be able to claim to be an engineer in Australia, but at least those who have spent years actually doing engineering as a career and were trained on-the-job have finally gained formal recognition as providers of professional services now, whether trained in a university or otherwise. And it's in legislation.
I see what you are saying, but honestly it sounds like you ARE a technician. I just do not see how you can get all of the theoretical components necessary to be an engineer through on the job training. Did you just memorize a list of formulas or something? Even in that scenario were you ever tested to ensure you had correct knowledge of the formulas?
I understand that the things you built probably worked fine, but how can the government trust you to say build a pacemaker if you have no documentation whatsoever that says you have the requisite knowledge, both theoretical and practical, and have been verifiably tested on it to ensure you got it right?
The tests ARE useful, at least for a liability standpoint.
Sure, I imagine it is possible for someone to teach themselves electrical engineering and the like, but it is exceedingly rare. The people who think they have taught themselves electrical engineering are far more likely to actually be self-taught electricians, or other technicians.
Also, once past a certain size the business owners are very often not running the business. The stockholders and investors own the company and the board of directors has oversight, but the president/CEO actually runs the company and can be fired by the board. In general the president/CEO sucks up to the board, in the US the president often has an antogonistic relationship with congress, and congress is analogous to the board of directors
I'ts like saying the first job of an engineer is to get hired. After getting hired the company always expects some work in return.
wut? oregon better check itself, before it wrickity-wrickity-wrecks itself?amiright?lol i digress, fuck oregon.
Two words for you. Ford Pinto.
Or were automotive engineers somehow exempt from the requirement to be licensed less their work kill people?
The Republicans do a good job of convincing voters that running a company is a bonus for a politician. Never mind that CEOs are responsible for many of the same things the voters are bitching about - outsourcing jobs, hiring undocumented workers, moving plants overseas, automating the jobs with robots, etc. (the automation is the primary reason many lower skilled jobs are going away, that far outstrips any effect from undocumented immigrants, but it's also the reason for a lot of growth at the same time)
There's a complicated dance being done during elections to both keep big business happy while not appearing to be keeping big business happy. It helps that voters are not bothered by cognitize dissonance (candidate taking money from wall street is bad, candidate actually being from wall street is good).
That is a state by state problem.
In KY the PE is two part, the first is general engineering, covering the basics of all the fields reflecting that no one works in a vacuum. The second part is specific to a field.
I looked at a few newsletters I had and most of the enforcement actions wound up with agreements not to practice in the future without a license. Fines look to be limited to people doing engineering for money without a license. I don't see a single fine where money doesn't change hands, usually repeatedly.
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
I have the degrees and pay stubs to prove it.
According to Oregon your degrees don't mean jack shit unless you qualified and registered as an engineer in the state of Oregon.
Does he actually hold ANY credential in Electrical Engineering? Regardless of the law of practicing or not, if he actually has no credentials, he should never be able to claim he is an engineer.
First things first: I'm an Eur Ing certified Engineer (practicing and whatever) and hope that people become more conscious about what the fuss is about.
* Society does not (and should not) grant exclusive professional titles and rights for fun, it does so because it protects citizens' life(-state) and property.
I guess we would all hope society continues to do so: Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers are meant to help human life.
1)
In this particular case, there is no much struggle to consider that this gentleman comes with a case worthy of discussion and he should be heard.
If he is registered engineer or not, that's irrelevant per se. The technical case needs to be discussed regardless and I personally believe/bet he has a point.
2)
Furthermore, under certain circumstances he could be qualified to be called Engineer - it seems not so in Oregon - and the following is to be examined:
https://www.usaopps.com/govern...
In that, you may observe that an Oregon address is used as base for "Engineering Services", under his name; oops, that _may_ be regulated!
It IS his responsibility to ensure that he is complying with the local law - there is simply no excuse for that, if he is advertising engineering services.
fi. building code changes from place to place, there is no excuse for not adhering to it!
3)
This is obviously a "negotiation" that went out of hand from both sides;
the language below appears appropriate and respectful -not abnormal of a regulatory authority- however between the lines there is some confrontation:
https://lintvkoin.files.wordpr...
Hey, that's not how to build bridges - pun intended!
The case also highlights that the engineering community could benefit from some norms about how to solicit feedback from both licensed engineers and the wider public, and be held accountable, if there are omissions; there will be something to learn out of all this process.
fi. regular car drivers have plenty to confess about near-misses, which COULD and SHOULD shape the opinions within formal traffic engineering bodies.
The discussion is going to be interesting and it's great this takes publicity, because it will force some healthy debate.
So, let's not be too quick to circumvent the lawyers and judges, they are specialists under a protected profession, exactly for that kind of thing ;-)
I'm not 'most people', and yes I disagree.
The doctor in your example
has earned a doctor's degree by education,
is not treating anybody,
isn't getting paid by anybody.
He is merely stating his opinion about medical treatment plus informing the people that he olds a doctor's degree.
I think he can do that and should be able to do that without fear of being prosecuted by some over-zealous civil servant.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
"the rest" being inherit two hundred million in 1970s NYC real estate and let inflation taken its course.
You can see where Trump made money by looking at his taxes... Oh wait. You can't.
...but is is the (US) reality..
This is why you can't find tech people in Portland. Nobody wants to have "code monkey" as their official title.
I'm not denying that there is a place for university courses and standardized testing. It's always been recognized. But if you're doing the same work as an engineer, for a similar period, then you're recognized as a PE in Australia after five years on the job.
I'm not arguing that one is better than the other - and readily admit that it's a lot easier if you can just get someone else to teach you - but if you're self-taught and applying it at a high level, every job is an exam and the pass-mark is 100%.
But calling me a technician is a little bit rude. All of our engineering work had to be done by us. This began with a design brief, and a project description. We'd design computers ( not assemble, design... ) and select the chips and chipset, measure up space and mounting points so we could design the circuit boards and begin putting together a new computer. No auto-routing - It was all done by hand to ensure we could achieve lower costs by using less layers - And we had to pre-calculate everything from power consumption to modes of failure. We had to create our own digital logic chips, and design of programmable logic was performed from data-sheets - not from high level applications.
When designing communications systems, we had to introduce error correction systems, and predict functionality of packet loss, and determine safe operating parameters with arbiter systems so that in the event of loss of control, the machine could be safely stopped.
When switching mains circuits, we had to calculate power factors and safe operating margins for all equipment, and unlike today when bugs are just a way of life, we had to demonstrate our computers would continue working under ALL conditions. A common test was for the boss ( a trained engineer and an expert ) to drop his keys onto our uncovered and uninsulated circuit boards and jingle them around, causing massive shorts, and our boards were not to fail in an unplanned method. All calculations had to be completed on time and any routines taking too long were trapped and reset, and the systems needed to come up from a reset without loss of data. Everything was designed to be redundant.Even code.
I'd suggest that's not the sort of stuff an engineer fresh out of uni could handle. Many struggled with the basics of electronics - especially timing circuits in digital systems. Most struggled with concepts such as building a UART from discrete logic, or constructing in-circuit emulators.
For those of us who did it the hard way, I'd suggest that the formal government recognition of our qualification as engineers was long overdue.
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
https://xkcd.com/277/
Goddamn, I can't believe they are putting diabetes in candy now. What won't Big Sugar do to peddle more of their drug?
You are a schlub
This is a Civil Engineering thing. Traffic light systems are designed by civil engineers. In the CE world your cannot claim to be an engineer without having your Professional Engineering License in the state you practicing your trade.
My son has a CE degree, works for a CE firm but only has a CE in Training certification. He cannot legally say he is an engineer. In a few years when he takes and passes his board exam for his PE he will then be able to say "I am an engineer" but only in starts that recognize the exam he takes.
Civil engineering boards are very picky about this and are probably going a bit far in this case but the rules are in place for a reason. A Civil Engineer signs every project the are in charge of. That signiture means they take personal responsibility for anyâ problems with that project for the life span of the product. You sign off on plans for a bridge design that should last for 25 years and it fails in 10. You will be in court to explain why and be held financially libel for any and all judgements due to its failure. You may also do jail time for any injuries or deaths it caused.
A little different than my web site code failed and slowed you down.
"I'm not an engineer, but I play one on TV."
Long ago I worked for, among others, a licensed civil engineer. He had me type up a letter to the governing board complaining about somebody who called himself an Engineer fraudulently. Apparently in California "Engineer" means "Licensed Civil Engineer". No idea how EEs and CEs and other Es deal with it, but Civil Engineers are apparently pretty sensitive about this stuff.
His letter to the board lists a link to his homepage where he got zapped by a Redflex camera back in 2014 and he attempted to get out of it using his skillz and failed.
http://www.jarlstrom.com/redfl...
He is merely stating his opinion about medical treatment plus informing the people that he olds a doctor's degree.
Publicly stating that engineers are wrong and at the same time proclaiming he is an engineer? I think you are disregarding those two pieces of facts.
I think he can do that and should be able to do that without fear of being prosecuted by some over-zealous civil servant.
He has been told to stop using the term which he ignored. The board has no say about the merits of his claims. In fact they're already told him that the state board has no jurisdiction on the traffic lights of the City of Beaverton as that is controlled by the city.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
...engineers are wrong...
That's a bit of an over-generalization. Have you never seen an engineer or scientist who had it wrong at some point?
The rest of your post is irrelevant as we already know he's doing this because he wants to be a member of the board.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
That's a bit of an over-generalization. Have you never seen an engineer or scientist who had it wrong at some point?
That's not the point. The point is not whether they are right or wrong. This point is that he is not merely expressing his opinion; factually he's saying the engineers are wrong. In numerous articles, he contended that the calculation is wrong. "Convinced the cameras were using an out-of-date formula, he took his message to practically anyone who would listen — local TV stations, a conference of traffic engineers, and even the state board of engineer examiners."
Again, the state board has already said this issue with the lights is out of their jurisdiction as the city of Beaverton controls the lights; he needs to take up with the city. However, if he wishes to file a complaint with the state board, he may do so. So far he appears not to have sought to file a complaint.
The rest of your post is irrelevant as we already know he's doing this because he wants to be a member of the board.
You are aware that of the 11 members of the board, almost all of the positions require the registration/license that Jarlstrom says he does not need right? Can you see how it is relevant now?
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
That's MISTER Schlub to YOU buddy!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
...an Engineering degree.
Voila! Complete the course, you're an engineer.
And yes, for working as an engineer you need a license.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Yes of course he's an idiot and should never get that position. ;)
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
If you read the whole thing through the documents there is an email that he is trying to sell a better solution to Beaverton. There is an email to the local sheriff about it.
Voila! Complete the course, you're an engineer.
My point again is that I can't listed my title as "Engineer" in the state of Oregon. In the other states, I can't list it as "Professional Engineer". In some states, I can't list "Licensed Engineer". Jarlstrom did that in Oregon. He was warned not to do so but disregarded the warning.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
This is standard practice. The system is f'd. You can even be ordered to break the law and get charged with disorderly conduct if you refuse. The officer merely needs to believe he is issuing a lawful order and not actually be issuing a lawful order so even if you know he is issuing an unlawful order and inform him of it you are guilty of disorderly conduct for not complying fast enough! A criminal class a level offence. Even if you don't refuse failing to react quickly enough to the officers liking will gain you a conviction.
The law is unjust and we need to get rid of it. Safety is no excuse for tyranny or a police state and such absurd charges are routine- and people who defend themselves in court are routinely railroaded and found guilty. I recall an incident where a friend of mine was breaking no law and he won a criminal case. They then preceded to go after him via administrative tribunal where there is a lower standard. Instead of needing to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt they only have to prove preponderance of the evidence. Basically they decided there was enough fishy stuff going on that he was therefore guilty. Essentially he was following the law and not declaring residency, but living in New Hampshire. He did not want a New Hampshire license and the law didn't require it until one sought residency. Even under preponderance of the evidence he was innocent, but the reality is the way things work you are presumed guilty by those who judge merely because of biases in the system and amongst the population against those who are accused.
If there is no victim there should be no crime and the idea that the state can be a victim is nonsensical in most cases. The real reason I was arrested was because the police didn't like the fact I was filming them. They were making an example out of me for the two dozen activists filming a checkpoint. The officers had already illegally setup 'sidewalk closed' signs to hinder filming of the checkpoint far ahead of what was reasonably needed for the officers safety. It's also settled law that one can literally get within feet of an officer and not be interfering. The safety aspect of it is up to the media correspondent, not the police to decide. Of course when officers merely need to believe they are issuing a lawful order you have no rights. In fact I was literally told I have no rights when I invoked my right to remain silent and my right to a lawyer.
Join the migration of liberty-minded activists to New Hampshire and help us fix at least on region of the world so we can restore a last bastion of freedom and liberty supposedly guaranteed under our US system of government (5,000 activists are here in this small state and 10s of thousands are working on moving, and we're already having a big impact on the state to the dislike of many statists):
http://www.freestateproject.org/
Ok, maybe you can't, but I can tell you you're an engineer. :)
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
There shouldn't be, either. Software should have analysts, programmers and developers. Not engineers.
When I started my IT career, back in the '90s, my first certification was a Novell CNE (Certified NetWare Engineer). I remember the fight between the state of Oregon and Novell over the issue. I have no idea how it was resolved, because NetWare became irrelevant not long afterwards.
Many commenters here seem to not have grasped the entire story. I am a licensed professional engineer so I had an interest in finding out what was going on.
Review the article and you'll see a series of letters spanning a couple of years. The first at the bottom was (I thought) gracious, requesting more information, who he had talked to, and what "services" he referred to providing, and kindly informing Mr Jarlstrom that he really ought not to advertise his services as engineering services, since that is a violation.
He repeatedly insisted on doing so, until the most recent letter informed him that since he insisted on it, he was to be fined for it. It is him who is making a big deal out of this, not the board.
Now whether or not he actually does have good information is a different point, but so far I have not seen any indication that he was willing to work with the board in providing them with the requested details.
You're conflating "engineer" with "Professional Engineer", and I don't know why. After I got my engineering degree and worked as an engineer for a few years before going to grad school, I was an engineer. I was not a PE, because I didn't need to be. If the state thinks that not being a PE means I'm not an engineer at all, it can fuck off.
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
Sounds like a case of bad Examiner Board management!
Perhaps the Oregon agency responsible for designing traffic light installations is too embarrassed to take responsibility for what another human was kind enough to suggest to them!
And, Mr Jarlstrom was not providing engineering services; yet merely offering qualifications to make the observation valid.
Knowing how to engineer and suggest is different than getting paid for the work!
Perhaps he is providing (unrelated) electronics engineering work for a company that covers his engineering with their registration and certification!
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.