HP Launches New Calculators

lar1 writes "It looks like HP is back in the calculator buisness! In a press release dated 2003 October 20, HP states: 'Within the next several weeks, HP will be launching three additional new calculators: two graphing and one scientific. The two yet-to-be-launched graphing calculators, together with the hp 49g+ and the entry-level hp 9g, will provide a complete range of graphing calculators expected to fulfill the needs and budgets of a broad spectrum of calculator users.' The 49g+ boasts features such as: USB and IrDA connectivity, a 75MHz ARM CPU, 2MB of flash, and an SD card slot. That's a lot of calculator!" We mentioned this calculator-on-growth-hormones earlier.

Comments

And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[JoeLinux]

...Polish Notation Reverse it is?

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Portman, Natalie Reserved?

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[CableModemSniper]

Yes

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Anonymous Coward]

ATFR

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[bmac526]

A different way of entering calculations. For example, to calculate 3+2, type:
3(enter)
2
+ (no equals sign)

or for (9+7)*3, type:
9(enter)
7
+
3
*

Takes a little getting use to, but after using it for a while, it becomes natural. I can barely figure out how to use a "regular" calculator now.
BTW, I'm the proud owner of an HP 32SII that hasn't needed a new battery in about 15 years.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[DeadSea]

ATFR

Did anybody else rearrange that and get "fart"?

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Anonymous Coward]

"While we are committed to the needs of our RPN customers, we also understand that many of our current and future customers are more familiar with the traditional algebraic entry mode. That's why we now offer the choice of multiple entry modes on the HP 49g+ and two other calculators. The HP 17bII+ financial calculator, launched in October, and the HP 12c platinum financial calculator, launched in May, allow for either RPN or algebraic entry modes."

"Fred A. Valdez
General Manager
HP Calculator Division, Personal Systems Group"

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of idiot would pay $149 for a broken calculator?!!!

Oh, and:
"*** A PC with an internet connection is required. Please purchase separately. "!!!!

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[abb3w]

Read the press release, dude...

In addition to the efficient RPN(2) (Reverse Polish Notation) entry mode, the hp 49g+ offers optional algebraic and textbook entry modes...

"It's a Floor Wax....AND a Dessert Topping!"

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[andrew_0812]

RPN is great. Plus, when someone needs to borrow your calculator, it is fun to watch them try to figure out how to use it, then give it back in frustration. Once you get used to it, though, it really is much more efficient.

I still love my HP48gx.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Zirnike]

I'm probably going to get flamed for it, but...

Considering the other features, I'd be interested in the thing... But RPN is out (for what I do, it's much less efficient, and no, I'm not going into it again). Algebraic mode is what would allow you to input things in about the same way as a TI-85, right? So you can shut off RPN mode?

Has anyone used a TI Voyage 200? How's is it? Are the pixels square or rectangular? (that last one applies to both, I didn't see that noted one way or the other in the HP one) That is important to know.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[hatchet]

I have 10 years old hp-48gx and you can use algebraic mode if you like.. just enter (3+5)*4 ... and pres 'eval'. But hardly any hp user uses that except for system equation solving. RPN is so much better when you get used to it...

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[naarok]

I'm the same way, after using RPN throughout university, I just can't do anything complex with a standard calculator. It just confuses me to know end.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[kkirk007]

I just bought a TI Voyage 200 (V200), and I love it for the most part. The screen is on the left and the buttons on the right, so it's not very left-hand-friendly, but other than that, very nice.

The pixels look perfectly square to me, and there sure are a lot of them! over 30,000 to be exactly. Compare this to about 10,500 for the HP49G+...but that's not really fair because of the size difference. Compare it to the 16,000 pixels of the TI-89 and that's quite a difference (especially for the same size screen).

What good is a 75MHz CPU and SD-card slot and USB connection if the display sucks?

Casio makes one (crappy) calculator with a 3-color screen, and another calculator with a PDA-style touchscreen. That one is cool because all the function buttons are virtualized on the screen, changing dynamically. No more blue/red or 2nd/Diamond print above the keys!

There are some great sites out there that have comparisons of the graphing calculators...I can't wait to see the new comparisons with all the new models that are out. :)

-KK-

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[terminal.dk]

I am also waiting for a cheaper feature rich RPN calculator.

Loves my HP11C, and thinks the HP48sx is great too. Need something good in HP11C / HP15C / HP16C quality and not too large. But RPN is necesary. Bought the very cheap HP-9S, and it is a big disappointment.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Illbay]

I always wanted a chance to try POLISH NOTATION, so that I could compare it to RPN.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[COLUG]

I for one
our new RPN overlords
welcome!

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[aminorex]

> It just confuses me to know end.

Well, there's your problem. If you know the
end, then obviously you are omniscient, or
at least close enough for rock-n-roll. But
since you have finite intellect, all that data
is overwhelming to you. The solution is to
drop this measly floating-point calculator
in favor of one that supports transfinite
and surreal numbers. You'll find it an
amazingly useful tool for making analytic
sense of the transfinite sensorium of
omniscience. Personally, I prefer a
PDA with a transcendental fractal
co-processor in an UIIW )(uncountably
infinite instruction word-length)
architecture, but I can appreciate the
old-skool charm of RPN.

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Listen Up]

Actually, since I am a RPN fanatic (and passionate supporter of RPN), it would correctly be:

'Reverse' ENTER
'Polish' ENTER
'Notation' ENTER
+
+

Re:And the thought on everyone's mind is....

[Anonymous Coward]

on my hp-42s, it would be:

"Reverse" ENTER
"Polish" +
"Notation" +

Who is it aimed at?

[soluzar22]

Calculators with way too much muscle are cool, and they do tap right into that geeky part of me that drools over lovely gadgets, but on the other hand, seriously, if it can do calculations in hex, that's all I need, and I'd be almost scared to use that one.

I mean, if you break it, it's cost you how much? The last super-beefy calc I owned set me back about UKP 75 and that was a long time ago. Plus, that was a long way away from what we're seeing here. Who are they aiming this at? I personally could never justify the expense of one like this, no matter how useful it may be.

Oh and BTW - First Post ;-)

-- Soluzar

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[soluzar22]

Don't I look like an eeejit? NOT the first post... Ooops! :-P

-- Soluzar

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[SuperguyA1]

Math geeks (like me) will love this. I've been wanting a calculator for years (since the TI-92 came out) that would do RPN and Symbolic algebra. I doubt the average user will want a calcuator like this, but a whole lot of math/physics/engineering/Chem geeks will be saving their pennies.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Joney]

Engineering students, perhaps? I don't think I would have graduated without my HP48. Joan

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[daksis]

I too have fond memories of being jealous over the guy who had every physics formula ever programmed into his TI or HP super computer. But I'm a little curious, with hand held computers with 400mhz processors becoming the norm, will we soon see the death of the "Super Calculator"?

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[FunkSoulBrother]

I understand that it probably has more features than anyone would ever need, but if you look at the website its selling for 87 to 105 UK Pounds. Thats not much above the figure of 75 that you quoted paying a long time ago.

Now granted, the price should be way down on the old model thats was good enough for you, but far be it from me to begrudge an up and coming geek who wants to spend his own 80 pounds on a new calculator just like you did while coming up.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[bigberk]

Who are they aiming this at?

Engineering students, for one. Before I got my first graphic calculator (TI-83) I could have never imagined how much this would simplify problem solving. Looking forward to trying out the HP line.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Joney]

I think it will be up to the schools to decide. I remember in high school if you had a HP with the IR port, they made you put electrical tape over the front to keep you from 'cheating'
but the designation calculator will allow these things to be used on tests where a 'pocket PC' or such will probably be prohibited, even if they do the exact same things, there is paranoia about that sort of thing.
I also remember when the TI9something came out with the QWERTY keyboard on it, my school also prohibited it's use, as it no longer resembled a calculator but in fact a computer.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Short Circuit]

It should be a great learning tool. Its algebraic functions show you step-by-step what it's doing.

That is why I'm going to buy it.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[proj_2501]

you cannot take SAT using a calculator with a QWERTY keyboard

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Xerithane]

you cannot take SAT using a calculator with a QWERTY keyboard

One more reason why Dvorak is superior to QWERTY!

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Score:2, Insightful)
(Score:0, Offtopic)

The mods giveth, and the mods taketh away,

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[soluzar22]

"The mods giveth and the mods taketh away"

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that I could have had my comments modded higher overall if I had resisted the temptation to:

A: Try and get the first post,

B: Make an unneccesary reply.

I shall learn to control my eeedyit tendancies... With the help of responsible modding. :-)

-- Soluzar

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[ChuckleBug]

I mean, if you break it, it's cost you how much?

True, but in the past at least, HP calcs were incredibly tough. I used more than one, but only because I wanted to have one at home and one to carry around, and I once sold one to buy a fancier model. I dropped them, stepped on them, crushed them under piles of chemistry texts in a backpack - all this abuse for years, and I never had a problem with any of them.

I also grew to love RPN so much I couldn't use a TI. I mean I could, but I didn't want to. The thing people fail to appreciate about RPN until they get some experience using it, is that it is actually more natural. You do complex calculations more like the way you'd do them if you were using a pencil. The parentheses in algebraic entry are initially more intuitive, but they're ultimately kind of clunky.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[the phantom]

Once you get used to Reverse Polish Notation, I guarantee that you will fall in love with the HPs. If, on the other hand, you decide you don't like you new HP-49G+, I would be more than willing to take it off your hands, for the cost of shipping. :)

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, with the TI's memory you can search up through, you don't really need the RPN, although there have been times where the parenthesis do seem clunky. Like when I'm entering a one-liner into my TI-92 that would take 30 or more stack operations.

Until this new calculator gets out, the TI is still faster than the HP, and overall easier to use, thanks to a good user interface and lots of functions. The only thing I wish my TI-92 had was memory to store help files in it.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Eiki]

Heh, I always soldiered on with a dinky ti-68, and when it died a glorious death on the field of battle, I picked up a ti-30x. One line of raster display and I'm happy.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[ncc74656]

Heh, I always soldiered on with a dinky ti-68, and when it died a glorious death on the field of battle

For a non-graphing calculator, the TI-68 0wn3d. Too bad the display on mine cracked when my backpack fell off my bike...:-(

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Pinball Wizard]

Me. I have been waiting for HP to make a calculator that has HP's famous tactile buttons like those found on the HP 48(not the rubbery crap they put on their first-gen 49's), RPN, and symbolic calculation that rivals my TI-89.

In fact I had been checking their site daily since I first heard rumors they were building such a calculator, and like a teenage Britney Spears fan, I plan on buying one as soon as my next allowance comes in.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you WISH you had first ps0t!?

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Zak3056]

you cannot take SAT using a calculator with a QWERTY keyboard

The TI-92 is the EXACT SAME CALCULATOR as the TI-89+, just in a different shell. To prohibit one but not the other is capricious at best, and downright stupid at worst.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Guppy06]

"you cannot take SAT using a calculator with a QWERTY keyboard"

Which is a pretty damned stupid policy, IMO. The TI-89 and the TI-92+ are functionally identical. They are both way too powerful for there to be any good reason to allow the use of in undergrad entrance exams (and even some graduate entrance exams). Because of this stupid "no qwerty" rule, the TI-89 has slid underneath the radar and we now have kids taking the SATs with machines that know more math than they themselves do.

If the people that run these tests want to be taken seriously, they're going to have to get up off their asses and become familiar with the technology out there. Simply banning the use of calculators based on form factor makes their tests worth less than the paper they're written on.

(Not that this is anything new, mind you. Most lower-level undergrad classes say "no graphing calculators." But there are "normal" scientific calculators out there to be had that have such features as a numeric algebraic solver...)

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Listen Up]

What should really happen is graphic calculators that are able to store any alpha numeric information should be banned in any school below undergraduate level (and even then not until about sophmore/junior year of college).

The problem is that there is now a generation of graduates (who I see all of the time) who can use a calculator like a whiz, but don't know basic physics formulas, can't do simple or complex mathematics, or even explain to me what formula or method they used to solve a problem without first grabbing their calculator. The usage of high powered graphing calculators in the elementary, middle level, and beginning college level students is creating a new society of uneducated 'nobodies' who can't work out a single problem from scratch or learn to create methods to solve them. People have become simple masters of being able to tell you everything you want to know about a problem without having any ability to actually solve.

I am a mathematician and am currently working as an engineer until I return to work on my Ph.D. I also tutor middle level and college level students. Almost 100% of the time, when I ask students how they get answers to everything from a simple algebraic problem to a calculus based problem, they instantly start typing it into their graphing calculators. WTF? The calculator should only exist to help you solve a problem (such as a very long mathematical operation not pertinent to your learning of the material). I always make them put the calculator away. I say "You are here to learn Mathematics, you are not here to learn how to type problems into your calculator". I have had almost 100% success rate in helping students to understand mathematics, physics, and engineering by teaching them how to solve the problem and how to think rather than letting them falsify their learning by taking a easy way out.

It was really the "I too have fond memories of being jealous over the guy who had every physics formula ever programmed into his TI or HP super computer" that set me off. I was always jealous of the guy who could get an A-/B+ by using his brain and a pocket calculator to solve all of the problems on the exam in undergraduate college. You should too.

I'm sure I'll get modded into oblivion by every kid who uses his graphing calculator to cheat in class on his exams (especially the people who store notes on their calculator).

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not aimed at anybody. They didn't literally launch it, that's just a figure of speech.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[senatorpjt]

The GRE (graduate school version of the SAT) does not allow calculators at all, not even 4-functions. I had to relearn how to do long division before I took it, which I hadn't done in at least 10 years...

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Kenneth]

What should really happen is graphic calculators that are able to store any alpha numeric information should be banned in any school below undergraduate level (and even then not until about sophmore/junior year of college).

Why? All you really have to do is place requirments on the tests that preclude letting the calculator do ALL the work for you. Things such as showing your work.

Let the machine do the stuff that isn't a part of what you're learning, and require that the work be shown for the stuff you are.

One of my professors always said "If you use something often enough it will memorize itself. If you don't use it that often, there is no point in memorizing it, as you can look it up." The only time you really can't when it comes to advanced mathematics is during artificial situations such as tests.

Generally on tests we could bring in 'cheat sheets' he kept the size limited because it forced students to put the students to only put the stuff that hadn't memorized itself yet there.

During finals however, he didn't care what we used, and during take home tests we could even ask others for help. His tests however were hard enough that after having one of them, nobody wanted a take home test.

So I ask you, Why ban these things. A good professor can make the tests bloody hard even given access to all sorts of resources.

Of course if someone insists on using multiple choice electronicly graded tests, you you can't make good math tests. The only real way to make those difficult is to give potential answers that are very much like common mistakes. This doesn't test actual knowledge of the subject. Only how careful someone is.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Listen Up]

"One of my professors always said "If you use something often enough it will memorize itself. If you don't use it that often, there is no point in memorizing it, as you can look it up." The only time you really can't when it comes to advanced mathematics is during artificial situations such as tests."

Unless you are a person like me, who can remember everything. You only forget something if you don't care about it. So, on that note, I disagree with your professor.

But, I agree with most of the rest of what you are saying. It is absolutely as much a matter of fault for a teacher, and on the highest level a professor, to not require written work and for creating exams that can be solved by calculator alone. But, I am afraid the problem is much deeper, whereas I tutor students who are almost in college or who are in college who can't figure out basic fractions or exponential functions without the use of a calculator. They never learned how to do it by hand. Especially the students who store notes from class in their calculators so they never even tried to learn it in the first place.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[sunajanus]

Iagree wholeheartedly with the HP camp but my HP-48GV retired this year due to a whole column of keys becoming nonresponsive. I tried in vain to find a source of repair. HP abandoned calculators and may do so again. I look forward to their entry back into the market but warn others that this may be a last gasp. (Darn I wish I hadn't given away my HP-41 and, especially, my old shirt-pocket-sized Sinclair which had a fixed decimal point, 5 digits accuracy, and worked only in radians and natural logarithms. I had to learn to divide the logarithm by two and take the antilog to get the square root of something.)

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Eiki]

That IS too bad. I ran that thing through the washing machine once when I left it in the pocket of my pants. Took it apart, dried it out, replaced the battery for good measure - no problem!

It was finally done in by some kind of display problem - two horizontal lines missing, which made it pretty hard to decipher the results.

Re:Who is it aimed at?

[Kenneth]

Unless you are a person like me, who can remember everything. You only forget something if you don't care about it. So, on that note, I disagree with your professor.


Lucky Bastard. Mere mortals like myself however don't have that particular luxury. :-P

But, I am afraid the problem is much deeper, whereas I tutor students who are almost in college or who are in college who can't figure out basic fractions or exponential functions without the use of a calculator. They never learned how to do it by hand. Especially the students who store notes from class in their calculators so they never even tried to learn it in the first place.

This is a problem with the Public schools who can't appear to teach their way out of a paper bag. With the way education is taught in the Universities, which require no courses that require real thought. With a learning environment that encourages the read and regurgutate learning method.

I could go on for hundreds of pages about how the public schools are destroying millions of young minds every year, but I won't. I cound go on for hundreds more about the hell that those who insist on retaining intelligence go through, but Katz has already done that. I could go on more about how the public education system is too broken for repair, and like a some buildings, it's better just to knock it down and build something that works, but I won't.

I don't believe in restricting the use of calculators in most instances, there ARE times when it is necessary, but in most cases after junior high school, an intelligent teacher can simply make the requirments preclude letting the calculator do all the work.

From what you said, however I do believe that the case can be made that some classes and particularly some individuals need to not be allowed to use a calculator untill the basic skills are developed.

But

[pheared]

I love my TI-86. I loved my 82 too.

Re:But

[psykocrime]

I love my TI-86 also, but I'm probably going to buy a HP-49g+ when they hit the store shelves. Just because, ya know, it's the geeky thing to do! :-)

Features

[mopslik]

The 49g+ boasts features such as: USB and IrDA connectivity, a 75MHz ARM CPU, 2MB of flash, and an SD card slot.

And it adds too!

Re:Features

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe so, but multiplication is a add-on package!

News Article or Advertisement?

[goldspider]

You decide!

Re:News Article or Advertisement?

[borgboy]

Obviously, the poster must be a personal friend of Carly's

Re:News Article or Advertisement?

[thejson]

This complaint comes up a lot whenever a new device is reported.

But this is slashdot; it's inevitable that new devices will come out and be posted on the front page even before there are comprehensive reviews. It is after all, news for nerds.

After all, you can always filter this section out.

Broken.

[grub]

Slashdot'd already. Here's the text:

HP (NYSE:HPQ) today announced the hp 49g+ abacus, the flagship of a
new line of powerful abaci to be launched this fall.

Built for scientists, engineers, mathematicians, surveyors and
students who need portable calculating power, the HP 49g+ abacus
performs all the basic math functions the user knows.
Total workspace includes an unprecedented 80 rows of 10 beads per,
broken into two 40 row columns side by side.

Priced at suggested retail of $99.99, the
abacus also allows for future upgrades via an included
toolkit which allows the user to remove each side bar permitting
access to the bead assembly for easy replacement of worn beads.

"The hp 49g+ is a powerful tool for professional
engineers or college students who prefer the SB (Sliding Bead) entry mode of
calculating ," said Fred Valdez, general manager, abacuss, HP
Personal Systems Group. "We've taken the original hp 49g and made it
streamlined, faster and shellaced to prevent splinters."

Re:Broken.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Slashdot'd already.

No, it's not. Karma whore.

Re:Broken.

[WEFUNK]

HP (NYSE:HPQ) today announced the hp 49g+ abacus, the flagship of a
new line of powerful abaci to be launched this fall...

I'd buy one, but the beads don't seem to "click" right, and somebody stuck the enter bead in the wrong spot -- the lower right hand corner?

Re:Broken.

[Anonymous Coward]

actually each row should only have 7 'beads'

my question

[spammyy]

who needs that much in a calculator? i mean sounds ok for an entry level pda, but do you need that much? maybe they're trying to capture the calculator gaming world (who's played hick quest on their Ti83)

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

>who needs that much in a calculator?

Graduate math and physics majors.

Unfortunately HP sunk the boat, and TI came along with a rescue boat a long time ago.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true. The hp48g was one of the most popular engineering calculators ever to grace the face of this earth. The hp49g was nothing but a fancy memory upgrade and new symbolic features that allowed the calculator to be more student-friendly. This new one, the hp49g+ is an extension of that. This is a big deal because hp had announced that they were no longer in the calculator business. Now they're saying here's some new calcs for you that are running on an ARM processor AND have all the goodies you're used to having. Trust me, none of the stuff on this calculator is just eye candy. The machine is pretty badass because it takes the best of the hp49g but gives it to us with hp48gx goodness.

Re:my question

[mblase]

who needs that much in a calculator?

Anybody who's gone beyond trigonometry in school into pre-calc and calculus. Anybody who uses calculus in the college classes on a regular basis.

You may not personally have any use for a handheld device that can integrate and differentiate symbolically, but those who do find these things indispensable.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in the calculator world. The HP48GX is unrivaled.

Re:my question

[DarthTaco]

I've used my HP48G extensively for the last 9 years. Right now I mostly use it for base conversions, and it is very handy to have the variable word length. My last project had a word size of 14 bits, which is a little unusual.

I even did a hardware mod on my 48g to upgrade the ram from 32k to 128k (per someone elses instructions). Here's a link on how to do it yourself if you're bored: 48g mod They actually go further and tell you how to emulate a ram card using some and gates and a 1meg resistor.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going through calculus with a small scientific calculator, and that is all I need. That, and some scrap paper.

Re:my question

[JonathanBoyd]

If you need a calculator to do your calculus for you at college level then what you need even more is to learn some maths so you can do it yourself. At degree level, my calculator rarely gets touched, except when I reach the final stage of a calculation and want nto stick a couple of numbers in.

Learn how to do the maths, be able to do it in your head, then hve the calculator for a luxury. Until you graduate you're not going to run into anything that needs a calculator to do it for you.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, you could stop being a dumbshit, and intergrate and differentiate the freaking stuff your self. I mean, it's not that hard, and you'd probably learn the material better if you weren't plugging in functions to your mini-computer

And, at the point where it does start becoming hard, the cacluclators fuck up 80% of the time, and thus become useless.

Re:my question

[theLOUDroom]

who needs that much in a calculator? Scientists. Engineers.


Seriously.
Examples:
Anybody doing DSP work.
Anybody doing large matrix calulations.

It takes forever to refresh.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

You are assuming the parent is talking about using it for math courses. But what about engineers? The problems in the higher level courses are not designed to be done without using a calculator and once you get high enough the features of something like this become very useful (unless you want to whip out a symbolic math program on your laptop whenever you need to do home work).

Re:my question

[JonathanBoyd]

Well, I was thinking about pysicists and mathematicians and he appeared to be referring to maths courses. If he did indeed mean engineers, then fair enough, there is a valid use there.

Re:my question

[bm_luethke]

I am assuming that there is a real question in there, not just a joke.

HP calc's rule the engeneering markets. My father, a land surveyor, can use pretty much no other calculator - the TI's don't have the flexibility, ruggedness, and software to do the job (they rule the college market though). Even at the speed of the 49 it could still take upwards of 2-3 minutes for a in-the-field calculation (and the lack of external cards really hampered its usefulness so no one used them). Once in the office even our pII-333 still takes a few minutes for several calculations (though a modern machine would spit it out almost instantly).

Since HP quit making a calculator with an external rom card (the 48gx) surveyors, and many engeneers, had switched to the palm top computers, then they went away they were replaced by PDA which didn't have the interface or the processing power for many of the things expected so they dropped out of favor.

Most surveyors nowadays pray to the gods of "please don't break" over thier stash of 48gx's otherwise they will have to move to a full laptop or a proprietary handheld (that costs as much as the laptop but is rugged for field work). I know my father, for one, will be VERY happy at this news.

Re:my question

[ftzdomino]

Don't you get tired of lugging the CRC Standard Mathematical Tables and Formulae book around? Or maybe you find it easier to memorize thousands of integrals. For those of us that use math for something other than calc 1 and 21, the HP-48/49 series are extremely useful. The only thing I've seen that rivals it is Mathematica, and that's only due to the speed gains.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the portable numerical power that makes it attractive. No one needs a calculator to do symbolic math. Next time you want to integrate e^x^2 with respect to x, think about why you'd want such a powerful calculator.

Re:my question

[aminorex]

Some functions are not indefinitely
integrable. Only an idiot or a transcendent
savant would do numerical integration sans
machine. Moreover, if you think you can
integrate all that is known to be integrable,
you're pathetically naive.

Yes, tools can be crutches that lead to
apathy. But just because you need to know
how to use a hand-screwdriver, that doesn't
m ean that you shouldn't use a
power-screwdriver.

Re:my question

[Guppy06]

Anybody who has to deal with Fourier on a daily basis, fer starters.

Calculators are meant to replace tedious grunt work once you know how the grunt work is supposed to look. For example, you don't use (or need to use) a four-function calculator until you have your multiplication tables down pat. Scientific calculators are for after you have basic pre-algebra down (order of operations, etc.). As for me, after three semesters of calculus, a little D. E, and some vector analysis, my TI-92+ is pretty damned handy for things like partial differential equations, linear algebra, etc. I know how to integrate already, thankyouverymuch.

Re:my question

[Shaklee39]

a powerful calculator wouldnt do it because it is not possible with elementary functions.

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

Calculators?! Give me matlab, or give me death!

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

AFAIK - matlab is a purely numerical piece of software without support for symbolics.

For that, you may want something like Maple or Mathematica.

Re:my question

[JonathanBoyd]

I've never been in a situation where numerical integration is required to be done without having a computer handy. In Physics at least, thee is no need for a calculator that can do numerical integration until you've finished your degree (or are doing a poject). Any time you do need to do it, a calculator would be a poor second choice to a computer.

I'm curious, why so much bitterness and agression?

Re:my question

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't disagree that it's not useful, obviously technology is extremely useful. However, I can see the grandparet's point. They aren't going to hand you a problem in Calc 1-3 or DE1-3 that's going to require a symbolic calculator. A simple graphing calculator like a TI-83 would prove to be very helpful, and might even be required by the course, but you shouldn't really need it.

The Great grand parent made it sound as if you needed a symbolic manipulating supercomputer to get through calc 1, which is obviously not the case.

Re:my question

[aminorex]

> why so much bitterness and agression?

I get really tired of paying to kill
innocent people, and I'm not getting
enough sex (after 14 years of marriage).

This results in moral and physiological
anguish/frustration. I'm always
on the edge of going postal as a result.

All of which is quite off-topic, but since
you asked....

signed,
NOT a graduate of the Dale Carnegie course.

Re:my question

[Guppy06]

Because why would I want to spend $200.00 on a device that is designed to perform a specific funciton when I can spend $2000.00 on a over-generalized laptop I'll have to tear down and rebuild from scratch to get rid of all the software I neither want nor need? Oh, and let's not forget the drasticly shorter battery lifespans that the $2000.00 (plus MATLAB license fee) pays for, as well as the loss to portability and durability. And it's kinda tough to hold an open laptop in one hand while drawing on the whiteboard with the other.

Screen resolution

[hattig]

You'd think on a graphing calculator they'd try and put a decent screen resolution in ... more than 130x88 anyway.

I suppose it is because all the software is written for the old screen size, and they don't want to spend time adapting it for a more modern resolution. Shame.

Re:Screen resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think on a graphing calculator they'd try and put a decent screen resolution in ... more than 130x88 anyway.

Yes, I want a 42" HD viewing area (with surround sound) to see the intersection of y=x and sin(x).

Re:Screen resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

You silly boy. Why would you solve that equation graphically?

x = sin(x) is trivial.

Re:Screen resolution

[hattig]

Resolution is independant of display size, sheesh.

I was just wondering why they didn't put a 262x160 screen (same physical size, before you get confused) and thus have nicer higher resolution, clearer graphs.

Re:Screen resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. Let this serve as a warning to other business students who try to use their one semester of business calculus for buzzwords.

75MHz ARM CPU

[Sir Haxalot]

WOW! That's faster than my first 486 computer, impressive!

Re:75MHz ARM CPU

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

WOW! That's faster than my first 486 computer, impressive!

I feel so old... so very very old.....

--

Re:75MHz ARM CPU

[spinkham]

Actually, it's probably not for most tasks... clock speed != performance...

Re:75MHz ARM CPU

[Anonymous Coward]

shut the fuck up troll

Call me a Luddite. . .

[bplipschitz]

but I won't be replacing my RPN HP-15C any time soon. I've had it since 1984, and it's still going strong.

Then again, I won't be replacing my slide rules, either. . .

Re:Call me a Luddite. . .

[trentfoley]

I still have and use an original HP41C and a newer HP41CX, synthetic programming and all - one of my first hacks.

I'm glad to hear that HP is back (or still) in the calc biz.

Without a good rpn calc, my sons won't be able to pursue an Engineering degree :)

And finally, there is some good news about HP. I miss Bill and Dave.

Re:Call me a Luddite. . .

[the phantom]

I will never replace my HP-11C. Great calculator, though I finally had to replace the batteries this summer. I got that calculator from my father, and I know for a fact that the calculator is a few months older than I am (my father bought it in '81, when it came out). The 11C is a great field calculator. It doesn't seem to mind the heat, dust, cold, &c. as much as my 48GX does (even with the case). Also, it is much easier to carry around, and has all the functionality I need.

That being said, it may be time to replace the 48GX for the office.

Re:Call me a Luddite. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Sing it brother (or sister, as the case may be). My 15C is sitting next to me and will hopefully be replaced only when I am.

Re:Call me a Luddite. . .

[Nom du Keyboard]

I won't be replacing my RPN HP-15C any time soon

Still got one of those. And an HP-16C as well.

What they don't say

[JamesP]

Is that 49g+ will be running a Saturn Emulator (not Sega Saturn, but the old 4 bit processor form the old ones)

HP your calculators were great, but stop crippling your products... Write another system. Yes, it's expensive, but TI does it right...

Re:What they don't say

[Detritus]

My guess is that it was cheaper to write a Saturn emulator for a modern commodity processor than it would have been to design a modern version of the Saturn, which is an ancient design on an ancient process. If you look at the spec sheet for the ARM variant (S3C2410X01 RISC Microprocessor) that HP is using, you will see that it has a ton of integrated goodies in addition to the ARM core. That's a lot of logic that HP doesn't have to design and test.

But...

[fuchsiawonder]

The important thing is, do the new graphing calculators play Drugwar? *clutches TI-82*

Re:But...

[f13nd]

my 48g+ does, so i assume yeah... or it won't take long for it to play it and TI-83's, 85's and 89's can all do it

From the article

[pheared]

Subject suitability

* Engineering
* Surveying
* Math
* Science
* Statistics

Ugh.

[Quasar1999]

I refuse to use a device that is physically smaller than its getting started manual.

Re:Ugh.

[default luser]

Then you'll want to avoid both HP and TI.

The instruction book that came with my TI-82 was as thick as the calculator.

The instruction book that came with my TI-89 was twice as thick as the calculator.

In three years, TI will release a calculator with a manual the size of a phone book :)

Re:Ugh.

[sketerpot]

In three years, TI will release a calculator that has the manual BUILT IN!!!

Then they'll need another manual to teach people how to use the help system....

Good news for overprivileged children everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Now my son can download two megabytes of his notes onto his calculator for consultation during examinations. Hooray! Finally, he will be able to leapfrog those poor children who "only" have a TI-89.

Frankly, I don't know how kids passed their classes before they had access to programmable calculators.

The question is?!?

[joealvarez]

Can I play Penguins on it?

Re: No, I know it's a good calc, but

[soluzar22]

Anyone know how much it's going to cost? I'm not denying the inherent utility of the beast, I've had to have recourse to a beefy calc in my own distant past, but I am wondering who will pay what I suspect to be a high price.

-- Soluzar

You don't replace the hp 49g+

[pheared]

...the hp 49g+ replaces you.

Clac vs PDA

[magarity]

Just to play devil's advocate: Since PDAs can be had with 75Mhz ARM CPUs and much more memory, what makes this dedicated device better? Given the magins in hardware manufacturing, wouldn't HP be better off writing PDA software to do all of these functions?

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Cochonou]

Maybe the fact it has a dedicated keyboard to enter mathematic expressions ?

Re:Clac vs PDA

[jonniesmokes]

You're right that the processor muscle is better on a PDA - but what a good calculator does is provide you with a great interface to do math. Having all the buttons right in front of you really does matter. Once you learn where the buttons are you can fly through calculations. Hunting through menus on a PDA or pecking a fake keyboard with a mouse on a screen isn't nearly as nice.

HP's 15C, 42S, and 48G are great. The neat thing about this new one is that you could probably power a sophisticated robot. You could even do the inverse kinematics on the fly.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Foochar]

The interface is what makes the difference. I have an HP48GX as well as a Palm Tungsten E. Someone has written a 48SX/48GX/49G emulator that will on the palm. I have it, and it works great. There's nothing like being able to carry the functionality of my calculator with me wherever I go.

That being said, it is not a part and parcel replacement for my calculator. For intense operations the keypad on the real calculator is worlds better than clicking on the screen. The other thing is that the screen size of my calculator is just a little bit smaller than the screen of my palm, and on the palm screen you have to fit both the keypad and the calculator display.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[FrankDrebin]

wouldn't HP be better off writing PDA software to do all of these functions?

One problem with convergence of the general-purpose PDA and the calculator is that colleges ban the former from final exams because they can be used to store volumes of notes, even entire textbooks. There really is a market for college students, especially in engineering and sciences, for a good calculator without too much memory and fancy graphics, simply to help perform accurate calculations and nothing more.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

You could even do the inverse kinematics on the fly

Gee, reverse notation, inverse kinematics... these HP calculators just don't do anything in the right order, do they ?

Re:Clac vs PDA

[thedillybar]

The many buttons are also superior to a PDA with nothing but a touch-screen. Keys are easier to find and easier to use. I don't see too many people with a touch-screen and no keyboard on their desktop PC...

By the way, what stops someone from storing volumes of notes on their calculator? 800KB of available flash it said? That's a lot of text.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Phekko]

Perhaps before saying you might wanna try, say, powerOne calculator for the PalmOS. Don't want to pay for a calculator program? Head to, say, freewarepalm.com and look under the cathegory "calculators"

I don't see much difference in having touch-screen buttons as opposed to hard buttons except that I can change and configure the touch-screen to my liking.

Now, in Amazon.com a HP49G costs you $159.95 whereas a Palm Zire 71 sets you back $227.40, in the same store. Depending on whether you want a calculator with lotsa neat features or a complete PDA is up to you. There's quite a bit useless stuff in the Zire if you only want a calculator, such as the (not very good) integrated camera and the (not too bad) MP3 player and a 320x320 pixel color display. Then again, if you only want a calculator, you may not want to pay $150 for it.

PPC side of the coin not supported because I like my handhelds to work.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Jester99]

I don't see much difference in having touch-screen buttons as opposed to hard buttons except that I can change and configure the touch-screen to my liking.

Ah, but if you don't have hard buttons, then you have to look at the calculator.

I can touchtype on my TI-83+ because I know where everything is and can enter an entire complicated math expression at a rediculously fast speed. I only have to look down to glance at the answer.

If you've got to poke things with a stylus, it has to take your full attention to do it... you can't look at your physics textbook for the equation while typing it in at the same time.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Phekko]

Nothing prevents it, and at least in my school all calculators with memory were banned. Or rather they handed you a list of calculators allowed and you bought one or used your fingers

Re:Clac vs PDA

[dattaway]

I suppose the battery life. My HP28S hasn't needed a battery in over 3 years. And I use it a lot. The keys have a reliable click for feedback when typing equations in fast when errors are not an option. Memory does not fail. The calculator does not crash. Programs are simple and to the point. Don't have to worry about viruses or trojans. PDA's are my worst dream in every regard when I need something that absolutely must work without fail.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

Moot point, since in most cases, calculators capable of doing graphing or symbolic algebra are banned from exams anyhow.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[kabocox]

Business will pay for a $150 dollar Clac. Even though the best desktops apps cost more than that other than Open Source, I don't know of PDA software that costst that much. Do you think business would be willing to pay $150 so that a few people can run the software on their PDA/Cellphone?

Honestly, you are right. It would be better to have the software so that you can run it on a pda/cellphone/web browser/desktop app. There is also the case for a one time purchase of 2-5 calcs that will last a few years and be upgradable.

Gosh. Profit wise HP may be able to make more with "Software Calc" than a standalone software. I don't know, but I bet HP has a study or too on it already.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[nonameisgood]

#1 reason: because the instructor or proctor won't let you in to the test with a PDA, but will with a really smart calculator.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

Not even mentioning how incredible the tactile feel of the 48G/GX keyboard is. Back in the days when I used it all the time, I could type one handed incredibly fast without looking at the calculator.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[addaon]

So what you're saying is that HP's calculator business would go under in about a week if TI were to sell a calculator keypad for $20 that clips onto the bottom of a palm pilot and interfaces to HP's free (what were they thinking?) emulator.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[sharkey]

I don't see too many people with a touch-screen and no keyboard on their desktop PC...

Give it time. Some folks are down to one mouse button already. Can touchscreen-only PCs be far off?

Re:Clac vs PDA

[JoshWurzel]

"There's nothing like being able to carry the functionality of my calculator with me wherever I go"

You mean, like, by carrying a calculator? A real geek keeps his calculator next to his leatherman ;-)

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Foochar]

I think it would make a nice dent. The emulator isn't made by HP, but they have allowed it to exist thus far without too much trouble.

At the same time, I'm not sure what the legal state of the ROMs for the Emulator are. I don't have a problem using the HP48GX one since own the calculator, and have acutally dumpstered an HP48G whose LCD screen shattered. If TI were to do something like this I could see HP cracking down on the people that provide the ROMs.

The other thing with the keypad is that a lot HP enthuiasts swear by the hp style keypad, which has a much better tactile feel than TI. I've never used the 49G, but from what I heard HP moved away from their traditional keypad with that model, I'm not sure if they brought it back or not.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[addaon]

HP recently (about a year ago, when they said "we're stopping calculator development"...) authorized use of the ROMs in emulators, and even distributes official ROMs, for emulator use, from there website for free.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Durin_Deathless]

I can't use my 48g on many tests, and my friend has a 49g. That thing(the 49g) has acomplete CAS built in. I think there isn't any major test it is usable on.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[dvdeug]

One problem with convergence of the general-purpose PDA and the calculator is that colleges ban the former from final exams because they can be used to store volumes of notes, even entire textbooks.

But all you change is the volume of notes - those calculators are more then sufficent to hold a few pages of notes.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[kg4eyf]

I have Power48 on my Sony Clie, but it just doesn't compare to my real 48GX. 2 main reasons. First, the display is substantially smaller on the clie after you fit all the buttons on the screen too. Secondly, buttons are important. I can perform calculations directly on the HP wihtout looking at the buttons because I know where they are and I can feel them click. On a touch screen, you almost have to look directly at the keys to enter anything. When entering a large matrix it goes about 5 times faster with real buttons.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Piquan]

In some, the TA will walk around the room before the test and clear all the calculators' memories. At the time, TIs rarely had useful memories, Casios had none, and every HP could be cleared by the classic three-finger salute: the power button, the top left, and the top right.

Of course, in response to this, somebody wrote a program that would capture the keyboard h/w, and simulate a clear.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[CodeBuster]

The calculator has specialized ROMs which provide a wide array of esoteric mathematical functions computed to very high precision at nearly instantaneous rates. These calculators have CPUs just like PDAs but the calculator CPUs have extra built in hardware features which facilitate their function as high precision mathematical engines. Even if you could find software which duplicates all of the functionality of the specialized calculator by the time it ran the same computations on your faster PDA chip the calculator would have won by a mile. In short...hardware specific implementation (ie the high end calculator) is more efficient and widely used and appreciated by all sorts of engineers. I would chose the HP calculator any day of over a PDA with software. Do you know that many of the PDAs have RISC processors which do not support the precission floating point and double precission integer computations that the calculator has built in? So the answer to your question is no...HP would not be better of writing software for the PDA to do all of these functions because there is a huge established market for high end calculators among engineers and no established market for engineering mathematics PDA software among business executives and other professionals who use the PDA to read their e-mail, browse the web, and remember their appointments.

Re:Clac vs PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry to burst your idea, but the ARM chip does *not* have any spceial calc specific hardware. It does not even support floating point. The HP's use BCD math, but there are no BCD instructions on the ARM - they are emulated.

Still not enough resolution

[Anonymous Coward]

"131 x 80 pixels"

No thanks. My TI-85 had 128 x 64 resolution ten years ago. Why would a calculator need crap like an SD slot when all you want is a high quality graph? Besides, I don't want to take the time to learn the HP equivalent of TI-Basic.

Is this even relevant?

[Asprin]

As the proud owner of an HP28S from my undergrad days, I have to say that if I were going into school now, I'd just get a basic Palm for $80 and be done with it. Not only is it a standard platform with many games, utilites and useful apps, but several nifty programmable RPN graphing and solving calculator programs are available for free. You can probably even get an HP28 or HP15 emulator for it.

About the only advantage I still see with the HP Calc is the keyboard. That, and I'm certain the palm would be banned from exams because of the potential for cheating, but so would the HP, no? I mean, 2MB will store a ton of cheat sheets! I packed a boatload of notes into the 32K of my 28S back in '89!

Re:Is this even relevant?

[zibadun]

Calculators are usually allowed on closed book exams but pda aren't

Re:Is this even relevant?

[pabloa]

Long Live the HP28S. THat calc rocked back in the day .. infrared printing , symbolic algebra and CALCULUS.. I love my still to this day. Still in my briefcase.

Re:Is this even relevant?

[Nom du Keyboard]

2MB will store a ton of cheat sheets!

And you might learn all that material if you had to enter it by hand.

HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[zymano]

I saw a $ 99 Pda at Compusa last week. By viewsonice
with rebates.

Now, I know they can't handle all the functions of the top of the line graphing calculator but they might if you have an emulator or other software.

The graphing calculator is dying out and being replaced by SUPERIOR technology. HP is not embracing the future by not coming out with a hybrid
pda/graphing calculator.

Updated ROM from the 49G

[Cochonou]

From the previous articles about the 49G+, it looks like the calculator is to run an updated 49G ROM (with the ARM9 will emulating the Saturn CPU from the 49G).

Now, I wonder if HP is going to make the updated ROM and its subsequent revisions available for 49G owners... that would indeed be very kind of them, but they might also want to increase their sales figures by making 49G zealots switch to the 49G+.

Re:Updated ROM from the 49G

[lp_bugman]

Chances are they are emulating the 49ROM because it's easyer than rewriting those lost algoritms writen in Saturn ASSAMBLER.
The problem I imagine is the amount of installed memory and interface changes. It will be to slow for the real saturn cpu.
Just guessing!

Re:Updated ROM from the 49G

[Samuel Hughes]

It is a well-known fact that they are emulating the Saturn processor; losing a decade of software by ignoring backwards compatibility would not be worth it. The 49 G+'s ROM itself is practically the same as the 49 G's though.

Check ebay.com

[samjam]

Heh! The old 48GX has been selling for around $150 second hand!

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=4 8g x&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&BasicSear ch=

Watch out for some cancelled bids anytime now!

Its a top calculator though, with emulators running on freely available ROM imagesfor some time now.

I'm running a 48GX emulator on my SE P800 mobile phone.

Sam

Great devices, for the computer as well

[Zergwyn]

I am very excited by this news. I swear by my 48gx, which has the most useful calculatlor I have ever used. RPN input is very fast, the stack is very useful, and it was really ahead of its time with features. However, it can be a bit pokey at times, making certain features less useful. However, it is also very good on the computer. In mid-2000, HP actually made the laudable move of releasing the HP48 ROM images to the public, so various emulators that work exactly like the real thing can be found for various platforms. For OS X, I would suggest using x48, which is even featured on Apple's website! You can find the original page here. Worth checking out. Also, HP48gx enthusiasts should check out metakernal, which, while it requires you to have an add-on memory card, can make the 48gx a lot more usable. It rewrites a lot of the core functions in assembly, making them far faster, as well as adding new features. It is also free now (minus the cost of the required card, obviously).

Re:Great devices, for the computer as well

[ShaggyShoggoth]

So, you taunt me by posting links to pages that do not have the program any more?

Re:Great devices, for the computer as well

[fermion]

All I am interested in is whether the new calculator is crippled to satisfy the needs of educators. They did this for with the 49, and I think it is the biggest mistake in the world.

TI has managed to convince educators that the students cannot do math, and calculators are needed to help the students realize higher order thinking. While this is true, especially when using the calculator to explore possibilities, the idea got perverted into the notion that kids must know how to use a calculator, and must be tested on it's use. Furthermore, since many administrators value answers over process, and since the calculator increases the possibility of correct answers, though at the price of process and higher order thinking, we end up with a situation where calculators have be degraded for use on multiple guess tests.

This of course means that the highly useful equation tables and communication ports have to be removed. Of course, these things are absolutely useful for teaching higher order thinking and group process. We have gone from a situation where students cannot do math a situation where students are not allowed to do math.

Hopefully HP will distribute a calculator for those who can and do math.

Re:Great devices, for the computer as well

[corsec67]

I have this calculator already (yeah, I preordered it), and it is definitly not limited: USB, IR, SD slot, Constants Library, and somewhere there is supposed to be an equation library. It comes with a usb cable, but on the calculator it uses the standard mini-usb port. I really think that using standard components like that is a very good idea.

The menus are incredibly responsive, and the math is pretty fast. I really do think that this calculator is better than the TI-89, and for some things it is faster. It does take about a minute to computer 1500!, but it eventually gets an answer. It also can do multiple 3D graphs at a time, so you can graph an entire sphere.
Doing side by side comparisons with the 89 shows that this calculator is faster at drawing menus, graphing, and pretty much everything.

I can definitly recomend this calculator to anyone considering a TI-89.

Email me with the subject "HP 49G+" if you want more info.
corsec (at) gamebox.net

Fibble gone missing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Find the ocular fwibble before midnight!

Add another item to the convergence pool

[DeepDarkSky]

Pretty soon, a little handheld gadget will be all of these:
- PDA
- Cell Phone
- Digital Camera
- Video player
- portable mass storage
- MP3 Player
- advanced graphing calculator ...there're so many, what have I missed?

You can bet something like this will not be allowed during test taking, that's for sure.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, kids'll have to start using their brains to do long division again...

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

Pretty soon, a little handheld gadget will be all of these:
- PDA
- Cell Phone
- Digital Camera
- Video player
- portable mass storage
- MP3 Player
- advanced graphing calculator ...there're so many, what have I missed?

And a built-in hotplate to keep your mug of coffee warm.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[abb3w]

Add in "Universal Remote Control"... since that's converging with PDA in software form even now.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Anonymous Coward]

tricorder

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Linker3000]

...GPS nav ...thermometer ...wind speed indicator ...compass ...BG meter for diabetics ...credit card holder ...electronic lock for car/house ...am/fm/dab radio ...electric razor

Hate to see the size of the battery pack though.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Anonymous Coward]

and that gadget shall be called a desktop computer and weigh a ton, with an interface that does none of the functions as well as they could be done if they were separate

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[tmark]

You can bet something like this will not be allowed during test taking, that's for sure.

Care to point out which of your listed items is allowed during test taking *now* ?

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[toddmori]

And a built-in hotplate to keep your mug of coffee warm.

nah, that is just the heat sink for the processor

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Milo77]

Of course some of these have conflicting goals. For example, i want my phone small so i can take it with me anywhere. For my calculator, i want a good sized keyboard (required for really high-speed input) and if it's graphing i want a big screen also. The size of my calculator matters less to me because i don't need to take it everywhere i go, and when i do take it somethere i usually have a backpack or briefcase or whatever. The input piece is important and i don't think it can be replaced by voice (imagine a test enviroment or a floor of actuaries) or stylus (drawing a "2" takes longer than just pushing the "2" button). On screen keyboards just don't provide the necessary tactile feedback and if your goal is to make them as small as possible then it becomes difficult to use both hands (when doing high-speed calculations with an hp32s2 you most certainly use both hands) and you increase the likelyhood that you'll either miss the key you were trying for or unintentionally hit others. This is what HP has always done right: their push buttons are the best. Convergence is neat, but it shouldn't sacrifice usability.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[DeepDarkSky]

So, basically, a personal heating unit (AKA hot water bottle for the information age) to keep yourself warm in the cold weather.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Anonymous Coward]

Hate to see the size of the battery pack though.

Don't worry Toshiba already has it covered. Runs your p4 calculator/gps/whatsit wonder-toy, AND cooks popcorn! Tractor trailer sold seperately.

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[firew0lfz]

heh, and then we get one of those box thingies they're always carrying around on star trek.. you know, whenever they land on a planet or whenever the doc has to scan people.. hmm. weird how star trek does it again.....

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[Nexx]

ITYM "in the cold server room".

Re:Add another item to the convergence pool

[bertvl]

GPS would be good thrown in with all those.

Pretty soon, a little handheld gadget will be all of these: - PDA - Cell Phone - Digital Camera - Video player - portable mass storage - MP3 Player - advanced graphing calculator ...there're so many, what have I missed?

Dude...

[thung226]

I'm a geek, but these are for dorks.

Are They....

[Anonym1ty]

• Do the new calculators also take pictures?
• Do the also make phone calls?
• Can I use it as a rolledex?
• Can I send e-mail from it?
• Can I IM people on it?
• Can I stream live video from it?
• Can I fax graphs from it?
• Can I look up a webpage on it?
• Can I listen to MP3's On it?
• Can I watch Videos on it?
• TV?

If it doesn't do ALL of this I am not impressed ---But that's just me

Re:Are They....

[sharkey]

Do the also make phone calls?
Can I use it as a rolledex?

Does it have a Spelling and Grammar checker?

Re:Are They....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes
no,
yes,
yes,
yes,
not yet,
no,
yes,
not yet,
yes,
no.

Re:Are They....

[Anonym1ty]

Does it have a Spelling and Grammar checker?

It doesn't need one, there are enough grammar nazis out there already

Sigh, decimal infection.

[Thinkit3]

Hexadecial is so much more beautiful.

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy: grab a PDA, put Linux and X11 on it, and run Matlab or Mathematica! Aren't general purpose computers cool?

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the $99 pda could somehow run Mathmatica and gnuplot and had a perl interpreter and a decent keyboard, I could probably make it work, but I don't think it would be as efficient at the same tasks. I also think there are a lot of people who need a calculator for basic math but don't even understand what most of the features on a scientific calc actually do. If your calculator solves triple integrals but you aren't past multivariable calculus yourself, it probably looks like a useless feature.

It's pretty hard to make a general purpose computer fit the space that requires a good scientific calculator. I don't think a pda is going to do it either.

Your Calcula-Tor is no match for The Abacusian...

[decipher_saint]

...or wait, it is...
cube root of five hundred

SARS!

[Anonymous Coward]

SARS (coming to your neighbourhood this fall!)

Re: No, I know it's a good calc, but

[Short Circuit]

At the top of the page: $149.99.

I suspect that unlike PDAs and computers, calculators are considered tools, not toys, so the pricing isn't insanely high when they're first released.

This is getting ridiculous...

[WIAKywbfatw]

It's way past the stage that these pocket calculators are calculators in the classical sense - these beasts are practically PCs.

When I sat my first recognised exams in mathematics (way back in the late 80s), the HP calculator I had then was programmable, and it was child's play to write programmes that solved quadratic equations, etc. Other kids in my class had models that had graphical displays that would give visual representations of equations, calculate integrals, etc.

And while most of us then where honest, because we knew our subject material, the potential for cheating (using a calculator to come up with an answer instead of working it out with your brain) was enormous.

Fast forward to today. I bet a fair few of these calculators-on-steroids will get bought by students that have no idea how to solve the problems set for them but are quite happy to just plug in a few numbers and have the calculator pop out the answers for them.

That's great if you want generations of kids who can use a programme someone else has written for them, not so great if you hope to teach those kids more complex maths, physics, engineering, etc later on.

My nephew is about to start the same exams I took 15+ years ago. There are no restrictions or checks on what calculators can be taken into any exam. How ridiculous is that?

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[Sage Gaspar]

Not ridiculous at all, because the majority of the things you can do on calculators are donkey work. Taking derivatives, taking straightforward integrals, solving simple differential equations, plotting directional fields, etc, is not high-level math. When the calculator can do proofs for you, then come back and talk to me.

High-level problems are things for which there are no algorithms, and solutions aren't a simple matter of calculation. The skills you need are logic, the ability to translate symbols into meaning, and a fair amount of intuition. Those are the things they should be testing you on.

It makes it much easier to be able to do these things without using a calculator, and I find myself almost never pulling out my TI-89 (great investment, hehe; I was young and stupid), but it makes more sense to see if students actually understand the kernel of the idea rather than memorizing tables. It's the same exact reasoning that says we shouldn't be memorizing log tables.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[Anonymous Coward]

When I had to pass my entry exam (civil engineering) we needed to determine the value of n for a quite complicated trigonometrical equation in x.

I programmed my TI58 with the equation, iterating over some values of x and n. 15 seconds later I had n = 4, and I started rewriting the equation from the bottom up. POC.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[Joney]

Sometimes our professors would give equations or systems where the calculator would give a totally absurd result or it would give two 'possible' solutions, even though one of them was impossible in the system.
the people that did the work by hand had more meaningful answers, square root of something over something, while a calculator answer would be a totally berserk decimal. the teacher would often criticize those turning in papers with such answers, asking, oh can you show the whole class how you got that answer? and the whole time the student never realized how neatly the equation came out when done without the calculator.

but worse still, try turning in one of two possible answers the calculator gave you and it be the wrong one and getting 0 points for your effort.
I didn't take algebra in college but I imagine the simiple solution there is to ban calculators outright or those of greater than scientific capacity.

but in engineering I found that our teachers handled the calculators just fine.
Ex: by wanting a number to only three decimal places, but when the calculator figured it out, it rounded differently than you or I would so the class turned in slightly different answers depending on their reliance on the calculator.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[Cochonou]

I'd tend to disagree with you, even in the field of complex math teaching.

There is no denying that the CAS of these calculators is very powerful, and often can't be challenged for solving equations or calculating triple integrals. But at best, these kinds of tools can help you working faster and more efficiently, but not do the work for you.
In physics, the calculator (or Maple, Mathematica, Matlab..) can solve your equations saving your time - and some of your nights - but cannot put into equations your problem which is the real deal.
In mathematics, the calculator might be capable of determining the kernels and images of linear applications as an example, but comes short for solving anything that requires to find a proper demonstration. So it won't get you very far.

At last, it could be argued that because of the huge amount of memory modern calculators feature, student are becoming lazy and shove all the formulas into their calcs instead of learning them. Yes, it might be a shame. However, it is sometimes said that the important is not to know all the information by heart, but to know where you will be able to find it.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Uh, 15 and 16 year-olds don't exactly get asked to do proofs, do they?

What they do get asked to do is solve quadratics, derivatives and integrals. And, if they're typical 15 and 16 year-olds, they'll take the simplest option available to them, which is punching in the numbers into a calculator rather than doing the (rather basic) work themselves.

That's fine and dandy for those kids that never do any mathematics again in later life, but for any kid contemplating any kind of science degree that's sheer madness. You can't do proofs if you don't know how to solve simple quadratics without using a calculator. And that's what I'm worried about, because there's almost an entire generation out there that can barely multiply 12 x 15 in their heads let alone solve x^2 -4x +4 = 0 without help.

My nephew, who's one of the top pupils in his school across the board and who gets straight As in maths, physics, chemistry and biology had real trouble multiplying -x by 2x when I tutored him a few weeks back. Coming up to 15, he displays less mathematical knowledge than anyone I went to school with when I was 12. And he's one of the top students. God knows how bad the rest of them are.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[Sage Gaspar]

Well, I have to agree with you as far as grammar school, middle school, and high school go. When you mentioned sitting for exams, I assumed you meant on college level boards, since the only standardized exams I sat for in high school were the utterly trivial SATs and High School Proficiency Tests.

However, I believe the blame has been pinned on the wrong party. The problem doesn't rest on the calculators' shoulders, but on the teachers'.

I can't remember ever using a calculator until ninth grade, because there was simply no point. I wouldn't even have been able to figure out the correct syntax to plug things into it, much less permitted to use it on a test that was about graphing, factoring, and such.

In high school, geometry was purely proofs. Any calculations were of the type that would allow you to prove something, and being able to verify that the identity that you used was correct by plugging it into a calculator isn't bad, it's realistic.

I was fortunate enough to have a teacher for pre-calc and calc that taught us the fundamentals of mathematical induction, complex trigonometry, generating the binomial series (and along with it, combinatorics), and much more (Calc, of course, hehe). Many of the things that would have been introduced in a college class I am instead seeing for the second time.

I think the problem is that these HS level teachers give in to the math phobia and the whiny students and don't challenge the class enough. I've seen relatively smart college-aged seniors fail a necessary math class for their major that some of my less intelligent friends conquered as one part of a course in high school.

Rather than lowering high school classes, where the grades don't mean much ultimately, to the lowest common denominator, every student in the class should be challenged. Does that mean that use of calculators should be limited? Maybe, on some exams. But that doesn't mean that calculators are degenerating the math skills of the youth of America, it means that teachers are allowing them to use calculators as a crutch, among other things.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[bigdavex]

Uh, 15 and 16 year-olds don't exactly get asked to do proofs, do they?

They were at my high school, and I don't think that's unusual. Most of us took geometry as sophomores. And we did a lot of proofs.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[ChuckleBug]

Uh, 15 and 16 year-olds don't exactly get asked to do proofs, do they?

I was at that age. And I wasn't a math virtuoso, or taking honors classes. The year of geometry I took at 15 was pretty much nothing but proofs, and there were plenty of them in following years as well.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[11223]

I was in the third year of my math major (undergraduate) at 16, you insensitive clod!

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[nelsonal]

Don't be so worried about anyone with an HP, they had to teach themselves everything about the calc (because the teacher didn't know how to help them), which usually means they understand the math behind it pretty well. Fear for the TI-82 weilders, who mostly learn button pressing. Alot of math classes and texts are integrating calculators very early on in the program. Go find a middleschooler who actually knows their times tables, they're getting pretty rare.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[toddmori]

I didn't take algebra in college but I imagine the simiple solution there is to ban calculators outright or those of greater than scientific capacity.

not quite, I was looking at an algebra book of a friend who is in college now, and it is basically a programming guide to the TI-89 with a few logic problems thrown in to spice it up

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[imsabbel]

And old saying in my faculty is:
If using a calculator allows you to cheat, then you do isnt mathamatics, but calculating.

(i guess it doesnt translate really well to english :) )

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Which is hardly typical of the average 15 and 16 year-old kid, is it?

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[Sage Gaspar]

None of which has anything to do with the capabilities of calculators themselves. I refuse to believe that there does not exist an algebra book on the market that doesn't rely heavily on the usage of calculators, and even so, a class can be taught without the use of a textbook (for some reason it seems hard to believe, but true), especially for algebra.

And, let's face it, a person taking algebra in college is most likely looking to fulfill their math requirement and get the hell out of Dodge. An engineering, chemistry, or physics major, let alone a math major, would find it impossible to complete the program credit-wise and time-wise if they had not even completed algebra by the time they entered college.

As an interesting side note, I wonder how long it will be before computing derivatives and integrals is viewed as purely a matter of calculation. If you look at it, back in the "good old days" it was necessary to calculate logarithms and trigonometric functions either by table or by carrying out a lengthy numerical approximation by hand.

Perhaps any operation that can be carried out algorithmically will eventually be viewed as work for calculators rather than people.

Re:This is getting ridiculous...

[drinkypoo]

I seem to recall that Einstein asserted that you should not memorize what you can look up. Obviously, part of "can look up" is knowing where to find it. If it's in your calculator, it's close at hand all right...

HP Bring back the 16C !!!

[caldwet]

HP bring back the Computer Scienbtists 16C !

http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp16.htm

It only sells on ebay for between $150 - $300 USD.

Probably would cost about $5 bucks to make.

Re:Good news for overprivileged children everywher

[jasonbowen]

I know of several schools that don't allow calculators during exams in calc and physics.

HP: Where's the updated 16c?

[billnapier]

Screw all those nice graphics and algebraic equation solvers, what I want is an HP 16c". They're on e-bay for $140 or so, which is a little expenseive for a at least 14 year old calculator. HP, bring back an improved 16c!

Re:HP: Where's the updated 16c?

[andi75]

I still have two HP 15C's (basically the math versions), and I fear the day they break (so far, they've proven to be pretty much indestructible, after having been through such tortures as been repeatedly dropped from desks, sat on, stood on, being left lying in the sun, subjected to water, tea & cola spilling etc.).

If I need to do more advanced stuff, I use Cinderella, Octave/GNUplot or (when available) Mathematica.

- Andreas

Re:HP: Where's the updated 16c?

[nosferatu-man]

Hell yeah. I've got a 32s, but I surely miss my old 16c, stolen by a amoral but discerning thief when I got to college, lo those many years ago.

'jfb

Re:HP: Where's the updated 16c?

[pmz]

HP 16c looks like the perfect programmer's calculator. Are there any modern equivilents that have hex, oct, bin, and dec as first-class buttons?

Re:HP: Where's the updated 16c?

[pato perez]

No, there aren't any modern equivalents. Plus few were made to start with. That's why they go for up to $300 on ebay. In comparison, an 11c from the same period goes for $75--200. I kick myself for having bought the 11c instead of the 16c--not that I would sell either, (love my 11c), rather that I really like to have a 16c too. If you really need the software engineering functionality in a a calculator, you can find a 16c emulator. This isn't so bad since one usually needs to do base conversions the like while programming, so opening another window the pc's easy enough. (Which is not the case when you're in a physics lab & an emulated 11c won't do. A big cool lab notebook & programmable scientific calculator is the only way to go.)

Re:HP: Where's the updated 16c?

[billnapier]

I've been looking but haven't found any. My TI-85 has them as almost 3rd or 4th class buttons. I have also seen a Scientific calculator from Casio that has them as 2nd class button (shift-button).

xhpcalc

[4of12]

I've had it since 1984, and it's still going strong.

Mine doesn't work anymore.

I miss it, but get by with my wife's HP-12C.

Some years ago, HP distributed xhpcalc, an X windows clients that provided a good facsimile of their programmer/scientific/financial calculator lines with nice buttons, RPN, LCD looking display, etc. [I wish I had a screen dump of it so you could see what it looked like.] This was on HP-UX for PA-RISC machines, like the 700 series. Looks as if it got phased out in favor of dtcalc (which I haven't used).

Unfortunately, it seems to have disappeared and I've yet to see anything on freshmeat comparable to xhpcalc.

Re: xhpcalc

[mce]

My 15C dates back to 1983 and is still going strong. It's by far the very best calculator I ever owned and as things look now also the ONLY one that I will EVER use again until I drop off this planet, even if the latter takes 40 or 50 more years to happen.

I also couldn't agree more about xhpcalc. We have Linux desktops over where I work, but whenever I need a calculator I fire up a remote shell to an old HP-UX server and run an old xhpcalc binary that I saved into a corner of my personal directory tree as soon as I found out that HP was not shipping it anymore. Hell, this reason alone will keep me pushing for continued use of HP-UX servers for our heavy duty iron as long as we have a choice between several UNIX vendors for those machines.

HP, are you reading? People WANT this thing!

Bruce P., are you reading? A long time ago I asked here on /. that HP would open up the xhpcalc source, seeing as they had already decided to kill it anyway, and you replied that you'd look into the idea. Feel encouraged to try again!

Re: xhpcalc

[Ada95]

HP-UX version 10.20 was the last to include xhpcalc. I bought an old HP 712/60 workstation (HP PA-RISC CPU) for $35 on ebay just so I could run xhpcalc. Some day I may install Debian Linux on the same box to see if the xhpcalc binary will run under Linux instead of HP-UX.

I would also like to see the xhpcalc source code released.

Re: xhpcalc

[Farce Pest]

Bruce Perens doesn't work at HP any more, so he may not have as much influence there as he used to.

Ban these calculators in exams

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly the reason why I allow only calculators that have basic arithmetic, trigonometric/transcendental functions and one digit memory in my exams.

Bought an expensive, state-of-the-art HP/TI? Too bad you're not allowed to use it. On the other hand, surely you can afford to buy a simple secondary calculator.

Re:Ban these calculators in exams

[Anonymous Coward]

The TI-92 has no QWERTY keypad and is allowed on the ACT and probably the SAT too (dunno about that one).

Re:Ban these calculators in exams

[Anonymous Coward]

I *HAVE* a TI-92, and it *DOES* have a QWERTY keypad.... AND it was not allowed in either the ACT, SAT, or the AP Calculus exams.

This might have changed, though: it's been 4 years.

Re:Ban these calculators in exams

[Samuel Hughes]

You better go check, its keyboard layout might have changed!

But yes, you are right, it has a qwerty keypad and is banned on the ACT, SAT, and APs.

Your post beat mine by 1 second....Same topic too.

[zymano]

I agree with everything you said.

Compusa was offering a COLOR Viewsonic PDA for $ 99 last week but I didn't buy it.

The keyboard is the sticking point .

Re: No, I know it's a good calc, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when $150 calculators could only add, subtract, multiply, and divide.

Comparison

[wizarddc]

Does anyone know how these compare to the standard TI calculators? i.e. which is the most similar to the TI82, 83, 86, 89? Us math majors need to know!

Re:Comparison

[PitaBred]

Ummm... the new 49gx+ is probably closest to the TI-89 from what the article said. HP calculators use RPN though, so if you couldn't figure out how to RTFA and derive an answer for yourself, maybe you should stick with the TI's.

PS, I pity your math department. And your english department. Should be "we math majors"

Re:Comparison

[dahjelle]

I would guess the closest would be the TI-89/Voyage 200. Here's some from TI's site.

What is really interesting is that the TI-89 only has a Motorola 68000 processor at 12 MHz. You can find more info from Wikipedia.

And the HP and TI sell for the same price!

Re:Comparison

[dahjelle]

Maybe I should fix the URL...try http://education.ti.com/us/product/tech/89/feature s/89bid.html instead. Don't ask about the other one.

Re:Comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, since when does a math major need a calculator anyway?

Re:Comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

umm, HP's use algebraic by default. However you are right - if want something really easy to use, use TI. If you want power / efficency, use a HP

I love my TI-86!

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you install a fleshlight in it?!!!

reckanize!

[Tumbleweed]

HP-11C 4EVA! ;)

Seriously, I'd never heard of the 16c until now - sounds interesting. Time to eBay! My 11c is still working _fine_, though.

Re:reckanize!

[the phantom]

What is this 16c you speak of? There is something with a higher number than 11c? By the Gods! the power of such a device should not be in human hands!

Re:reckanize!

[Tumbleweed]

> By the Gods! the power of such a device should not be in human hands!

Indeed. As Conan would say, "Crom!"

Plastic ?

[Anonymous Coward]

It that plastic I see as a case ? Then the ingeneer at HP must have missed the point or been overruled by suits... What really is great in a good old metal HP 48 GX is its "lightsaber" side : it's strong, versatile, compact, elegant... the noble weapon of a more civilised time.

The only thing that reminds me of a lightsaber in the new one is that it talks like Yoda.

In Soviet Russia....

[Thud457]

HP Launches New Calculators!

What?!!! I'm being to fucking subtle?!!

yep

[andih8u]

can't wait to see the case mods for these start rolling out

HP releases new calculator

[Anonymous Coward]

Formely know as the DEC Alpha line.

internet connection?

[Anonymous Coward]

*** A PC with an internet connection is required. Please purchase separately.


whats all that about?

Re:internet connection?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I expect calculators that I buy to include a PC with an internet connection! HP is just trying to rip us off with this new fancy calculator.

RPN has ruined me for normal calculators

[dannobookem]

The idea of a stack is so ingrained into me, it takes me a good 30 seconds to remember how to use normal calculators nowadays.

What, no coloured displays?

[dragonfly_blue]

There are certain types of plots that would benefit greatly from having a colour display, such as fractal image generators, fuild dynamics plots, and even topographic-style mapping algorithms.

I guess I just don't understand why HP/Compaq PocketPC's have been shipping with gorgeous transreflective displays for years, why they haven't shipped a high-end calculator for the real math geeks.

I suppose they think all of us just carry around a laptop with Mathematica instead.

That's a thought on YOUR mind.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what RPN is, and if you don't know what it is, then you're a newbie in the calculator world and don't deserve to use a HP calculator. It's a pain in the butt to here people make fun of RPN because they don't know what it is, and it's even more of a pain trying to defend it against arrogant people like you. There's already a link on the press release that's devoted to describing RPN. This parent does not describe to be ranked as funny.

Lay off, and go to "calculator standard", www.ti.com.

Re:That's a thought on YOUR mind.

[kfg]

"Sir, this is a feminist bookstore. There is no humor section!"

KFG

How long till Linux port?

[TokyoBoy]

Hm....2MB flash, SD card slot, ARM CPU...looks like a Linux port is a no-brainer.

Any bets on how long till Linux's first boot on an HP49g+?

Re:How long till Linux port?

[CracktownHts]

Screw Linux; what I wanna know is, can it divide by zero?

Re:How long till Linux port?

[Vivieus]

The port issue was discussed on comp.sys.hp48 and it doesn't seem that easy, given the low amount of sram (512kb).

Re:How long till Linux port?

[Detritus]

Linux has already been ported to the CPU used in the HP-49G+. See here. Wedging it into the limited memory of an HP-49G+ is left as an exercise for the student.

Floating point

[LordDartan]

If I remember correctly, the ARM processors don't have a floating point unit on them, so is it really going to be any faster than my old 48gx?

Re:Floating point

[the eric conspiracy]

Yes, about 5x faster.

Re:Floating point

[Detritus]

Almost all calculators use BCD floating point, so a floating point unit that uses binary floating point is a waste of silicon and batteries.

Holy Cow!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you imagine a Beowulf cluster of these?

Girl selling her calculator

[netglen]

Last month I saw a girl in college trying to sell her $80 graphing calculator for $5. She was broke and wanted to some money for lunch. Sheesh.

Re:Girl selling her calculator

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep watching her. You know what she'll be selling next...

Whoopty.....

[Anonymous Coward]

fuckin....

doo....

Still using my 11C

[pair-a-noyd]

after almost 20 years.
No plans on giving it up either.
Can't even remember when I last changed the batteries in it.
I think I changed them ONCE, maybe twice but I am not sure. But I do remember changing them once.

What an excellent machine.
I have the original HP fancy padded leather pouch, all the books, plus a big fat programming book. Only thing I don't have is the original box.

The HP49+ even include a

[Pope Raymond Lama]

"Complex number of functions".

After this one, I believe that all our calculus are belong to them.

(from the HP49+ link provided in the article: http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49gplus/
i n the Math Features)

Save Your Money

[lhpineapple]

You can spend less on a ti-89. You don't need all of those fancy features to put answers or equations in your calculator.

The hard part is trying to justify to your professor why you're using a calculator for a history test...

Re:Save Your Money

[The boojum]

Possibly so, but to my mind the main advantage of my HP is the reverse polish notation with the stack. RPN requires demonstrably fewer keystrokes to enter and you don't have to worry about remembering how the calculator implements order of operations. Plus I can sanity check an expression as I go along, seeing the intermediate results on the stack. Also, the stack obviates the need most of the time for storing partial results. Standard algebraic notation on a calculator becomes very uncomfortable after a short time with RPN.

So no, it may be more expensive, but I think even its basic features short of storing answers justify the extra expense.

RPN Bumper sticker

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know where I can get an "I RPN Heart" bumper sticker?

Got Lisp

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like lisp... in reverse

Re:Got Lisp

[Illbay]

"Psil?"

Re:Got Lisp

[Baggio]

That's because Lisp is using Polish Notation... the Reverse part of RPN means that the operator comes after the operands. The nice aspect of RPN over PN is that you can perform serveral operations on an operand that is already on the stack, without needing to prequeue the operators.

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[Slack3r78]

My computer has this nice little calculator program on it. Ocassionly, I'll run into something while I'm working on the computer that requires me to do some quick math. What do I do? Pick up my TI calculator that I leave sitting by it and punch it in.

I'm sorry, PDA's are a nice technology, but they in no way are superior to a good calculator. With my calculator, everything I need is either right there, or at most 2-3 menu levels down. Whereas with a PDA, I'd be lucky if I could do anything much more complex than basic math without wasting time digging through menus, no matter how well organized.

That said, HP DOES have a hybrid - the iPaq line. But they're also smart enough to realize that those who need to solve problems that are of more than marginal complexity will appreciate a tool made to do just that in the most efficient manner possible.

black and white screen?

[cejones]

Is it not the year 2003? Why didn't they put a color screen on this bad boy? Can you wirelessly print using it? I would want a screen that mimics the 3D graphing calculator program found on all Macs... Of course, the dinky processor probably couldn't handle it.

Overkill!

[Anonymous Coward]

The best calculator HP ever made was the HP41C.

Re:Overkill!

[Anonymous Coward]

never can have too much overkill

Good For competition

[Nazmun]

I remember buying a TI83 ages ago for the same thing it costs today. The thing has a processor that's probably weaker then the first gameboy that came out two decades or so ago.

Graphing anything less then a super simple equation still takes too damn freaking long.

Re:Good For competition

[Echnin]

I agree. I can't even get Pong to run well on my Casio CFX-80GB+. :-( It's got frickin' 32 kB of RAM! I bought it two months ago for 850 NOK, about $120, and that was on-sale price. And it's sloooooooow to graph. Takes 3 seconds to draw a straight line.

Re:Good For competition

[digital bath]

It's actually nearly the same processor - they both use z80's. The gameboy, iirc, has a few different instructions that the 83 does not - "swap" being one of them. It is also missing some useful repeating/load instructions that the 83 has. The real advantage that the gameboy has is it's hardware acceleration.

Re:Good For competition

[Nazmun]

So in the end the old gameboy churns out graphics faster then the ti83... Now a gameboy that probably processes graphics 20x faster costs the same amount as the ti83.

Re:Good For competition

[digital bath]

Much faster, and now much cheaper. Gotta love what moore's law does to the cost of computing :)

HP-15C! Me too!

[psgalbraith]

I was thinking the same thing. I got mine in 1982 and it's on my desk next to me right now.

The Best HP Calculator Site

[wsloand]

For the interested, the site that I've always found the best info on HP calculators and software for them is http://www.hpcalc.org/.

Not good enough.

[pico303]

I'm waiting for a calculator with a camera, MP3 player, and a GPS built in. Then I'll be happy.

How Robust are they and what about the buttons?

[mykepredko]

I have two (2, 0b010) HP-16C calculators that are both going on 20 years old and they are one of the best investments I've ever made. Along with them, I've had a variety of gonculators over the years, but these are the only ones I regularly lock up.

Along with the Hex and Binary functions, the cases of the calculators are rock solid (they've been dropped probably a total of 100 times) and the buttons have a nice solid "click" to them to give you feedback saying that the button was pressed. The button legends are molded into the plastic, so you will never wear them off.

The ARM processor, flash memory are nice, but the only thing that would make me consider giving up my everyday TI-83 (and the '16Cs) would be if the case was as rugged as the original HPs, and the buttons where of the same high quality.

myke

Re:How Robust are they and what about the buttons?

[darrylo]

You need to follow the comp.sys.hp48 newsgroup. I don't think you'll like the hp49g+ keyboard.

Re:How Robust are they and what about the buttons?

[mykepredko]

Yeah, I figured that - I guess I'll stick with my old reliables.

Thanx for the pointer,

myke

The who is going to need this arguments must STOP!

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time some technical piece of equipment gets posted everyone says, I don't need it just get a Palm. Obviously you have never done serious amounts of calculation or you would not even begin this argument....

I have Zaurus - I do not need calculator

[Anonymous Coward]

I am really surprised that HP wants to go this
way.

I can do anything I want with Python on my Zaurus
or the spreadsheet.

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[Psyx]

Considering that I use MATLAB most of the work week, I'm pretty darn happy with LyME on my Clie.

but can it wipe my ass?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I checked shashdot just now, and saw this news story, I realized that there is not amount of drugs I could consume that would make me care about HP's new calculator.

Re:but can it wipe my ass?

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, my scale converts from ounces to grams automatically anyway. why would a need a calculator?

Corrected link

[nacturation]

You can download the software from this page.

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[Planesdragon]

I'm sorry, PDA's are a nice technology, but they in no way are superior to a good calculator.

Grammatical nitpick: of course PDAs have advantages over calculators. You mean that they are in no way "a replacement for" a good calculator.

Whereas with a PDA, I'd be lucky if I could do anything much more complex than basic math without wasting time digging through menus, no matter how well organized.

With a palm, I've got a dedicated and configurable calculator button, and every palm I've ever owned (5 betwee me and the wife) comes with a free calculator that has functions roughly equal to most scientific calculators.

And, if for some reason I need something more complex, I can get a graphing spreadsheet for the palm, which lets me do something that calculators generally can't--save the darn quick work if I decide I'll want it later.

HP still makes calculators because there are entrenched markets that want calculators instead of PDAs, for a variety of reasons. But unless you're in the field, claiming that a calculator is the most efficient way to do anything is demonstratably wrong.

Re:HP-15C! Me too!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm hep, pad're. Same with my HP 28-C... which each April still does my taxes !

Re:Good news for overprivileged children everywher

[Slashamatic]

Usually simple calculators are allowed but forget anything sophisticated, as you may have a cheat sheet stored there!

HP still dropping calc line

[nedron]

To my knowledge, there ahas been no change to HPs decision to drop their line of calculators. These models were already in the pipeline and were mentioned in HPs "we're out of here" announcement.

So, while it's good news, for these three models, I'm still pretty sure it's the end of the line for HP.

Re:HP still dropping calc line

[Anonymous Coward]

What? If you follow comp.sys.hp.48g and some of the other HP calc forums, I don't think all road signs point to this conclusion. I'd be curious to see what supports this.

Re:HP still dropping calc line

[spinkham]

What crack are you smoking?
Where's this "we're out of here" announcement?
They're just starting up their calculator division again, as far as anyone on the comp.sys.hp48 newsgroup has said, and they're a bunch of rumor mongers.

opposite of LISP prefix

[peter303]

In LISP you put your operators in front, then properly order your arguments. For example the quadratic formula becomes:

(list (/ (+ (- b) (sqrt (- (* b b) (* 4 a c)))) (* 2 a))
(/ (- (- b) (sqrt (- (* b b) (* 4 a c)))) (* 2 a)))

You can start off with a half-dozen operators. Improper nesting or parentheses can kill you. This can be made shorter by binding intermediate variables.

Now in RPN:

b ~ b b * 4 a * c * - sqrt - 2 a * /
b ~ b b * 4 a * c * - sqrt + 2 a * /

This is terser than LISP. This can be made shorter with PUSH/POP, saving the intermediate root value.

Re:opposite of LISP prefix

[11223]

The difference is that you can't accommodate a variable number of arguments without some form of delimiter, and for a programming language like Lisp, it makes sense to allow this. I speak Lisp for programming and RPN for calculating, and they both make sense.

Re:opposite of LISP prefix

[Piquan]

Alternatively, we could say that it's the same as Forth. Forth is a stack-based, postfix language in which function calls are not delimited.

HP Calulators, all others are just ordinary

[Nonillion]

I have used HP calculators for years. I have a 42S and a 48GX, both are still giving me years of faithful and trouble free service. What impressed me was the ability to use complex numbers, like negative sqroots and to calculate !n 256 (can't remember if it was 253 or 256). And lets not forget RPN, the oly way to do math :)

I have even surfed the net with my 48GX via a telnet connection to my linux box. Anything else is just ordinary...

Keep thoes calculators comming HP.

Too late

[David24Wark24v2]

Still being in school I am able to see who has what calculator. I personaly use a ti-92. Most people use texas instruments calculators. I really don't think hp has much of a chance with the new ones, at least with high school and college students (do they make up most of the market?). Any way most instructers require a ti.

Re:Too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the market? What does that even have to do with anything? HP calculators have always been for professionals, not college students. You don't see any TIs out in the real world. Software for running teleprompters hardly has a huge marketshare, but that doesn't change the fact that it has an important place.

I really wish you grubby little capitalist kids could see beyond the importance of "market share."

Too late, ha. More like you are too early, greenling.

Re:Too late

[Anonymous Coward]

HP using professionals don't just appear out of thin air... TI using professionals are being grown. So if you're that defensive HP using professional out there... just think on it a while.

Combine this with a Cellphone!

[t4b00]

Why dont these clowns combine these things with cellphones too while they are at it, I want as much functionality out of my devices as possible,

Ie: cellphone, calculator, gameboy type games, addressbook, GPS, Camera, audio snipit recorder, mp3 player, email/webbrowser and everything else you can thing of ALL IN ONE DEVICE.

oh yea, by the way it needs to fit into my shirt pocket. if you dont think it can be done, Google "smart dust" while you are laughing at me. then post a reply as to exactly "why not." I want my portable device to look like a Star Trek (tm) "Tri-Corder" even if it does cost a bundle to produce I would make it a point to buy one A.S.A.P.

Here is my list of Priorities: Air, Water, Food, Housing, Tricorder, car, home pc, other. (your milage may vary)

Beam me up Scotty!

As seen at Home Depot

[nacturation]

I went to the hardware store the other day and saw this great new device which I'm sure you'll be interested in. It's a combination saw, laser level, hammer, screwdriver, drill, and has built-in GPS. Now you don't need separate, specialized tools to do all of these things -- one simple device does it all (though not as well).

Aren't you impressed?

Re:As seen at Home Depot

[AlienFactor]

I went to the hardware store the other day and saw this great new device which I'm sure you'll be interested in. It's a combination saw, laser level, hammer, screwdriver, drill, and has built-in GPS.

Parent is joking here, but I went to Lowes the other day and saw a salesperson demoing a Shopsmith: combination table saw, lathe, drill press, disc sander, and horizontal boring machine.

I still use my good ol' HP-15c

[Latte Lovin' Lurker]

Bought in 1984.

HP-16C

[Russ Nelson]

Been using my HP-16C for twenty years now. Good as the day it was made.
-russ

Re:HP-16C

[glitch!]

I have had an 11C for about 20 years now, and have a pair of 16C that I got about 10 years ago when Educalc had that sale :-) I truly believe these are the best calculators that any company has ever made in the history of mankind (the 11c and 16c that is).

I also got a 32Sii also about 10 years ago, but it is just not as handy as either the 11c or 16c. The keyboard is just not as convenient as the 11c and 16c, switching radixes is hassle, no temporary "clear prefix", and I find the dot matrix display annoying compared with the LCD segments. Not that I hate the 32Sii; I use it every day along with the 16c. But HP lost something important when they abandoned the 11 series.

There's probably no chance that I would buy this new contraption. Could they possibly make it any uglier?!

another satisfied HP -15c user!

[Latte Lovin' Lurker]

1984 was a good year for calculators.

So it's finally time

[Anonymous Coward]

To upgrade my main desktop, calculators are now faster then my 486 dx2 50 mhz.. I suppose the time was coming for this.

2 meg of flash...

[generationxyu]

Can we say... Linux port???

Calculator vs. PDA?

[MuParadigm]

Is there really a point anymore to advanced special purpose calculators?

I mean, yeah, I have fond memories of my HP calculator, and even fonder memories of my old TI and stupid calculator tricks (ok, I'm 38). But if I'm already carrying around a PDA, why not just download an HP emulator, or an algebraic calculator like Parens? I'm sure there's graphing software available for the Palm, too.

So is this a business that HP can really profit from going into? Seems to me like it's a niche market now, or at least headed that way.

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[jjhlk]

Calculators are much nicer to use than PDAs, so if you need to do a lot of calculations, the PDA is not the way to go.

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[spinkham]

Because the input sucks on an emulator.
I can work about an order of magnitude faster with a real HP vs an emulator...
Yes, not everyone does a lot of calculating that can't be scripted or turned into a spreadsheet, but for those of us who do, a real calculator with real buttons can't be beat. (Though matlab and maple and such definatly have their place, i must admit)

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[JGski]

If you've ever done any assembly/microcontroller work, an HP16C still is a sacred and joyous tool. As mentioned, emulators, even of the HP16C, suck badly.

As a HP veteran, I can tell you that not all HP (or Agilent) products are always profitable; some products are simply "required" by the market for legitimacy or leverage in related fields

That said, calculators themselves have always had excellent ROI for HP. The only issue is the absolute size of the return compared to, say, printers.

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[JGski]

Oh yes, some trivial: the HP 10, 11, 15 and 16 use precisely the same processor as the HP 41C. The only difference is in the final metal mask that defines the microcode ROM. The processor itself was designed in the late 70s.

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[Stephen Ma]

As a HP veteran, I can tell you that not all HP (or Agilent) products are always profitable; some products are simply "required" by the market for legitimacy or leverage in related fields

Agreed. HP's dumping of its calculators was a huge mistake, because those little calculators were some of the best marketing tools the company ever had. I still remember the warm and fuzzy feelings I had for HP because of those RPN devices. I would be willing to bet that millions of other people used to feel the same way.

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[dfung]

Absolutely. Count me as #1, only 999,999 to go.

In an age before "PC vs. Mac" there was "HP and TI". Geez, such an apt comparison - HP guys really paid the big bucks but the plastics, the heft, the buttons were all just awesome. TIs were cheap, ugly, and the "software" sucked, but for some reason everybody wanted to use that darn "=" key.

The only thing bad about this analogy is that there's not a "Linux" calculator. What would it be like?

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[skybird0]

Yes. Using a properly laid out calculator rather than a qwerty keyboard is much easier for math exploration, etc. I'd like to have the power of J on a handheld but it doesn't run on PalmOS, just MS Windows CE (the last time I checked.)

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing bad about this analogy is that there's not a "Linux" calculator. What would it be like?

You would have about 40 different ways to arrange the buttons, and you would have a choice of algorithms for each operation.

Re:Calculator vs. PDA?

[Klanglor]

also, one last thing: PDA are not allowed in exams!!!
:'( had to buy a stupid 50$ finacial calculator to use it twice for my exams :'(

What I want...

[Experiment 626]

I first got a HP48SX in 1989 (or maybe 90) and it was very amazing technology. Since then they've done the GX and the 49, which are nice improvements but basically just small incremental upgrades, which is disappointing considering all the new technology that has come out during that time period. Calculators basically hit their peak and then stagnated for over a dozen years and couting.

Here's what I think the ubercalculator of 2003 should be. The technology exists to make it, sure it wouldn't be cheap, but what nerd wouldn't want one...

I'd design such a beast as basically a PDA, but specialized in serious math rather than tracking appointments. Give it a fold-open design with a scientific calculator keypad on one part and a full-color TFT QVGA screen. A nice 400-mhz or so processor to manipulate even symbolic equations quickly. An operating environment that resembles neither a daytimer or a more primitive calculator, but best described as Pocket Mathematica. USB, IRDA, and Bluetooth connectivity, a nice recharging cradle, and have it come preloaded with a a vast collection of equations, reference charts, and such from a variety of disciplines... mathematics, physics, chemistry, engineering, statistics, etc.

No, no professor in their right mind would let you use such a monstrosity on a test, but I imagine there are other geeks out there who would want it. Or maybe I've just dreamed up a calculator so excessive you'd be better off using a small laptop. /shrug

Re:What I want...

[Bandman]

"You can bring any calculator you like to the midterm, as long as it
doesn't dim the lights when you turn it on."
-- Hepler, Systems Design 182

from the fortune file

Re:What I want...

[darrylo]

Or maybe I've just dreamed up a calculator so excessive you'd be better off using a small laptop.

You have. A laptop would have equivalent functionality, and be more general to boot (useful for other things, like Unreal Tournament ;-). Features and generality aside, the only thing that a calculator has going for it (but it's a big thing), is a dedicated keyboard; don't underestimate the usability of a dedicated calculator keyboard.

On another topic: for cheap symbolic math, check out maxima.

Re:What I want...

[EmagGeek]

So basically what you're describing in that short novel that you wrote is a PocketPC running Mathematica. Now, did you really need to use up that much of slashdot's disk space? :)))

BTW, I prefer MathCAD.. flame away!

(big grin)

God, it's gorgeous

[Nick of NSTime]

I love the retro design. Makes me think of the old HP business calculators from years past.

HP-15C is still the best

[bkrrrrr]

IMHO the 15C is still the best there's ever been. RPN is The True Path, and new-style graphing calculators are WAY overblown. My 11C died in 1994, and I was lucky to get the last 15C in town. If the 15C dies, I don't know what I'll do..."normal" calculators are so much more difficult to use, in comparison...

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[reidbold]

I think doing things like symbolic integration or linear regression quickly would be downright impossible on PDA's.

If all you need to calculate are simple arithmetic expressions then I'm sure a pda will be sufficient. This is not for that.

Does anyone actually do stuff like this on paper?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you actually work through formulas that way on paper?

Said it before, will probably say it again

[panurge]

I would much prefer a jacket with an HP keyboard into which a Palm will plug to be the processor and the display. Then I've got Bluetooth, SD card and the rest, good color display and the excellent user interface. Why does no-one make a calculator keyboard for Palms?

And if someone with a plastics factory is reading this, why not build space into it for an auxiliary battery thus avoiding the need for frequent shutoff?

How do you correct RPN?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it give a textual representation in RPN, or does it convert it to an algebraic formula in which you can edit some numbers if you wish?

I frequently play with rather long formulas on my Casio changing some parameters and re-evaluating it. To me algebraic notation seems most natural for that.

Best calculator I ever had ran on Palm Pilot

[rcastro0]

It ran on my US Robotics' Pilot 5000. It was RPN, offered drag-and-drop on the stack, and you could download function libraries to suit your taste -- and there were many. Very neat. I did not miss my HP.

My last calculator (the one I went through engineering school with) was an HP 27S . Now that is rare (try to find one on ebay)! It was *algebraic*, and neither scientific nor financial, but both. The most remarkable thing for me, though, was that it did not do complex number operations ! Even cheaper/simpler TIs at the time did that. That was one serious handicap in Electrical Engineering. A couple of guys had 48Gs, which not only did complex, they did matrix. How unfair.

My grandmother, which knew not much about calculators, except that HP was a good brand, bought the 27-S for me as a gift. So it had emotional value. I probably would have chosen another. Today it is at my parent's, where my father uses it occasionaly.

Speaking of that, my father was also an engineer, graduated in the sixties. His fond memories are not of HP calculators, but of slide rules. Does he get to get one with IrDA, USB and SD memory too ?

Symbolic Algebra

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

The high end TI calculators use REDUCE (I think) as their algebra package and it's pretty awesome. I can throw some pretty nasty integrals at it and it gets them. My HP48G is crap by comparison as it had only the most rudimentary algebra (even though the blurb about it originally suggested it was sophisticated). Does anyone know if the HP49G+ does real algebra comparable to REDUCE?

For example if I throw deSolve(y'+y''=sqrt(1+x),x,y) at my TI89 I get a sensible answer back (including a subexpression for an integral that it couldn't get in closed form). Will the new HP do that? Or better? (Mathematica knows to use Erf[] (of a complex variable no less) to polish off the integral.)

Re:Symbolic Algebra

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing I didn't like about the way that the TI89 handles differential equations is that it won't even make an attempt to solve anything higher than second order; I always have to use a CAS on a real computer to do those kind of calculations... Really, even if the 89 did it slow, I'd be willing to wait a few minutes for it to spit the answer back at me, it would be a lot faster than I can do it myself by hand.

If this new-fangled HP calculator can do that, well... I think that's just cool.

Re:Symbolic Algebra

[Anonymous Coward]

The TI's use DERIVE, which beats the HP48 easily - the '48's have no real CAS to speak of!

The 49G's are about equal to the TI's. However HP are back in business, but TI really doesn't care about the high end.

Re:Symbolic Algebra

[pkhuong]

Do you have erable? If not, then the 49G+ is better, since it comes with erable and metakernel installed.

Re:Symbolic Algebra

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

What's Metakernel? I've looked on the web but still can't tell. I lost my serial cable years ago so haven't downloaded any HP packages in years!

The Surveyors Market could be driving this

[C. Alan]

It is a little known fact that the 48gx makes an excellent platform for Data Collecting, and doing field calcs for land surveying. When you are out in the field, the 48gx can be easily placed in a water proof case, and used to send, recieve, and store data from a surveyor's total Station. The battery life is suppior to PDAs, and weather resistant PDAs are pretty pricy.

One a side note, It is pretty hard to crash a 48gx. I shutter to think about using a windows CE PDA, only to loose 8 hours of work to a tiny blue screen of death.

There are a couple of good software packages out that support the 48gx, and most cost way more than the calculator.

--C. Alan

RPN palm software?

[swordgeek]

OK, I'd like one of these, especially if it has the solid-as-a-tank case with the clicky keys of the 1xC models.

But until they make something like that, is there a good RPN calculator I can download for my Palm Vx? A free 16c emulator would be ideal, but I'm not that picky. :-)

Re:Who is it aimed at? Land Surveyors.

[C. Alan]

The 48gx is very widely used as a platform for data collecting for land surveyors. PDA's are not nearly as effective for this function.
--C. Alan

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[naarok]

Comparing the POS calculator that comes with the Palm to an HP48 or better shows that you have never used such a calculator (or used it when you didn't need to). There are some pretty good software calculators you can get for the Palm, but none compare to a dedicated calculator when you really need that kind of power.

As others have said, here are the wins for a dedicated high-power calculator.

A Palm calculator has to share it's screen real estate between calculation and buttons (or the buttons are buried in deep nestings of menues). Thus you see more of your calculation on a dedicated calculator.

You can touch-type a dedicated calculator. Hitting soft-buttons on a Palm without looking is not very accurate.

Percieved features of a Palm.

You can save your work. Actually my HP48 saved all my work between uses, so no advantage.

One less thing to carry. True, and is sometimes a really usefull fact.

In the end, I've paid for a pretty good RPN calculator for my Palm, and I probably use it more often than I do my trusty old HP48, but when I need to do something complicated, out comes my HP.

Man, I'm old...

[SiliconEntity]

I'm old enough to remember when HP came out with the first scientific calculator, the HP-35. It was the front cover article on Popular Electronics, and I'd bike over to the local university bookstore and salivate over this amazing machine. Back then the alternative was slide rules and books filled with tables of logs and transcendental functions. Replacing all that with a handheld device that produced the answer in a fraction of a second was absolutely amazing.

I never got a 35, it was too expensive, and by the time I got into college and could justify a scientific calculator it had been replaced by the HP-45. But I've owned many models of HPs over the years, the 45, then the 67 with its mag cards, the 41, the first that could display letters as well as numbers, the Forth-like 28 and finally an HP-48.

TI always seemed to kick HP's butt in the market, but the HP inspired devotion in its fans, kind of like PCs and Macs. You used to see T shirts with "ENTER > =" on them, asserting the superiority of HP's dataflow oriented RPN notation over the TI model where you'd write down the formula with parentheses just like you'd see it in the book. The TI was easier to use in a "monkey see, monkey do" sense, but if you actually understood what you were doing, the HP method was more natural and powerful.

Re:Man, I'm old...

[Anonymous Coward]

People who used slide rules have an easier time visualizing logrithmic models and they are also more comfortable with high-order exponentials.

Sure, the handheld calculator will give you a graph or a very accurate evaluation, but there is something that a slide rule communicates which a calculator or a graph does not. I think it should be part of the algebra/precalc curriculum to learn how to use a slide rule, for the simple reason that it makes certain things very clear which are sometimes quite difficult to learn.

Most people just balk at the idea of using a slide rule for anything, even though they have never used one themselves. I equate it to someone who would dismiss the usefulness of an abacus, insisting that it's better to count on their fingers, or their superior knotted strings.

I think it's funny that people will laugh at me for suggesting a slide rule has some benefits over an electronic calculator, but if you used one, you probably understand what I'm talking about.

I really like RPN, and I really like the way HP handles matrices. However, I have migrated into the TI camp, and I'm not unhappy about that. Partly, it's political. I don't want to give the current HP one dime of my money. I hope they die in the marketplace after the ugly things they've done recently. I don't care if TI's are made by the Nike sweatshop people at their second job, it's better to support them than the current HP. And this is coming from soneone who had a HP 35, a 67 with all the accessories, a 41, and who still uses a 48GX. HP lost a customer of 3 decades when they pulled their horrible, ugly corporation bullshit.

Re:Skrew HP! This is a real calculator!

[Anonymous Coward]

The 83+ SE eats the corn out of the 86, 89, and 92's shit. And it looks like HP has Ti beat here. I thought 92's had an impressive spec, but WOW these hps are fast as hell. No more Ti Basic for me please!

Budding Engineers

[goodhell]

Students in the engineering field might want to reconsider purchasing a beauty like this. According to the NCEES website. You cannot use this for the F.E.E. See here for their faq.

Mainly it is non-IR, and non-text editing. They pretty much want you to go back to using slide-rules for taking their exam. This new policy goes into effect in April 2004.

It really pisses me off, because now I have to go buy an older calculator so I can take their f#@#$ing exam to show that I can be an engineer. Just 'cause a few people go in there and try to steal the questions. Stupid!!

Re:Budding Engineers

[EmagGeek]

FFS, I can't use something without a visible stack and RPN. What the hell am I to do? I'm glad my school days are long gone...

I still use my 48GX every day at work.. They're not going to fire me for having an IRTE calculator.. even if I do use it to control the overhead projector in the conference room during meetings :)

Good this is

[JeffTL]

Polish notation reverse very efficient is. Like Latin it feels. Hewlett Packards very good are, but I my TI-83 prefer. When RPN I need GNU dc I use then.

Re:Good this is

[user32.ExitWindowsEx]

Begun, the Clone Wars have.

Re: No, I know it's a good calc, but

[adam872]

These HP calculators also last forever. Many times I have been sitting at an Engineer/Scientist's desk and seen an ancient HP still working. The $150 is money well spend IMHO. It also harkens back to a time when the name Hewlett Packard was synonymous with top quality. It is less so now...

who needs that much in a calculator?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Hello. Welcome to the civilized world. One of the aspects of civilization is the use of mathematics in projects as diverse as figuring out how much tax you owe and computing whether or not that extra bit of fuel could possibly kick your satellite up into the correct orbit. Unfortunately humans aren't good at the repetitive operations involved and hence need to use calculators to help them out. The procedures built into the HP49+ include things like Fourier transforms, differential equation solving, regression and optimization. Next time you look out of a window and notice a car drive past or a tall building or a computer remember that these tools were used to do these things. What's more, around the world there are hundreds of thousands of people actively doing these things.

Maybe you didn't know.

Re:who needs that much in a calculator?

[Luzumsuz Lazim]

I have a PhD degree in Physics, I work in the area of nuclear/particle physics, and I do a lot of Monte Carlo simulation, data crunching, theoretical calculations, whatever you can think of that require mathematics at any level, and yet, I didn't need to use my TI89 for the last 10 months, I think. The last time I used it was for filling the (damn) tax forms.

When the arithmetic is simple (say "18*2^(-8/9) makes 10; an order of magnitude larger -- by assuming that 8/9 is slightly smaller than unity -> 2^(~-1) is slightly greater than 1/2 which makes the result a little more than slightly greater than 9 which is closer to 10 -- with a precision better than the experiment/theory"), we don't need any device, estimations are good enough. We need computers (well actually "super computers") when we have a tougher problem.

Although, I didn't see the HP49g+ yet, I don't think the Fourier/integral transform can be good enough for a real work. Those kind of things may be helpful only for homework unless you don't have access to a computer.

My point is that it has nothing to do with the civilized world. I prefer a sleeker calculator that does the basic operations (say simple arithmetic + trigonometry + complex numbers), rather than a clumsy TI89. Sometimes, I miss my pre-historic Casio with beautiful aluminum casing design, which I lost long ago. The only advantage of the modern calculators of today is the complex numbers, which is needed once in a while...

And, as for the area of mathematics, which we physicists use intensively, a calculator is even less needed. I often saw the amazed facial expressions of my non-technical friends who are referring the notes in my hand as: "Is it really mathematics? I don't see any number here! And, what are does curly symbols for?" Got the picture...

Re:who needs that much in a calculator?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Well if you have a computer to hand a calculator is often unnecesary. But even then I often find it convenient to reach for the calculator. Sometimes I like to work away from the computer - you know, with pen and paper, and then it's useful to have a calculator to hand to check stuff. I can't imagine do full blown calculations with it but occasionally testing out a little something with say a 8x1 Fourier transform can be useful to check your hand calculations in a simple test case. I guess that pins down the use: testing out simple test cases.

Re:HP still dropping calc line - NOT

[Pinball Wizard]

http://www.hp.com/calculators/news/index.html

A choice quote:
"The bottom line is that HP calculators are here to stay and they are going to be better than ever, giving our customers more than ever."

But hey, don't let a silly little thing like facts get in your way of proclaiming the end of the line for HP calculators.

Played with a 49g+

[Nybble's Byte]

Much more responsive than my 48GX and a ton better than the 49G, which was a mistake with its rubber keys (ugh!) and awful color scheme. The display on the 49g+ is also a lot nicer, with no cover over the screen to cause rainbow effects due to polarization.

If only those buttons were pressable :)

[Peaker]

I had a 49G, but I recall it was quite unusable simply because its keys were very difficult to press (physically).

It did seem pretty good in many other aspects, but its funny how a small basic failure in the UI field can ruin an otherwise good product.

Re:If only those buttons were pressable :)

[EmagGeek]

Holy shit I can't believe what I'm hearing! I didn't buy the 49 because the keys felt like CRAP in comparison to the 48 series. TIs feel even worse, IMHO.

That tactile, deliberate feel is better than sex... well, not really, but you get the idea...

I guess it's just a matter of opinion...

Why HP?

[Nick of NSTime]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you HP fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a HP (a 49G+ w/2 Megs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to calculate the differential of a second order polynomial. 20 minutes. At home, on my TI-89, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this HP, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.

In addition, during this calculation, Tetris will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even the Solver is straining to keep up as I type this.

I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various HPs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a HP that has run faster than its TI counterpart, despite the HPs' faster chip architecture. My TI-35 with 32K of RAM runs faster than this 75Mhz ARM machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Hewlett-Packard calculator is a superior machine.

HP addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a HP over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Matlab, Mathematica

[lp_bugman]

The only problem Is that those are not ARM (may FAST cpu used in PDA's). They are not open source and I dont see the makers releasing PDA binarys any time soon!.

There are probable other Open Source tools that can be ported to your favorite PDA but not Matlab :(

HP Calculator + Mathematica

[elan]

Yeah, it would be slow, but it would be cool to have the calculator running Mathematica.

TI-89

[mehtars]

The calcs seem more expensive than the TI-89.. basically what incentive high schools have to switch their cirriculum to use the HP calcs. Thats where most of the engineers i know started using them...

Re:Does anyone actually do stuff like this on pape

[Samuel Hughes]

On paper, the best way to _write_ formulas is certainly standard notation... But when you calculate ((4+5)/(6*pi))^3, you first take 4 and 5, and add them. Then you multiply 6 by pi. Then you divide the two numbers you got. Then you take the result to the the third power. That's how RPN works.

It makes no sense to write things in reverse polish notation, but it is a heck of a lot easier to use a calculator with it. Especially when using objects that are not numbers, such as matrices, lists, vectors, strings, symbolic expressions, etc.

PDA Graphing Calc

[spacemky]

... while we're on the subject/debate of PDA vs Graphing calculators, I should mention that there is an excellent (FREE) graphing calculator program out there for PDAs. It's called Easy Calc, and it's a pretty rad little program. It's no HP, or TI, but it sure is smooth for being free.

btw, no, I'm not affiliated with these people.

Love my HP 32S

[metachimp]

I still use my HP 32S which I got in high school. I love it, and RPN is totally the way to go. The only trouble is that I'm in B-School, so I have to enter in all those NPV and IRR equations, rather than having them built-in. Somewhere, I have an HP 12C, which would probably be better, but until then I'm happy with my 32S.

Check your firmware

[Anonymous Coward]

Supposedly the advance units were sucking back tons of juice and killing the batteries while in "sleep" mode. Make sure yours has the latest version of rom.

usenet discussion

Glad to see HP's again, but will keep my 48G

[ducomputergeek]

Yes, I have the lowly 48G since and I've had it now for almost if not just over 10 years. Its spent 9 of those years in high school and college back packs and lived to serve me to this day. I remember its built in equation solved was what saved the day in my HS AP Physics class back in the day.

But the question is, will it do IRR. My HP 48 served me as overkill up until my senior year of college and finace class when it wouldn't calculate IRR, or at least not correctly and I had to run out and get an HP17BII.

While this new calculator looks to be extremely cool, chances are so long as my 48G rolls along like a tank or AAA batteries become hard to find, I don't see myself spending the money.

HP 49s SUCK

[Anonymous Coward]

It is hard to make a calculator that a user that wants to love it can do nothing but hate it. The HP49G SUCKS, therefore nothing great can come from the HP49G+. Nothing. You think HPs are going to take the market? Just wait until the new wave of engineers, scientists, and mathematicians graduate. A university student that uses an HP is a rare exception. HP is for those students and professionals that just have to be different, have to conflict with everyone else, and choose inferior products in an attempt to prove their superiority.

Don't buy that HP!

Re:HP 49s SUCK

[Anonymous Coward]

lol - what a TI fanboy. How old are you, 13?

My 49g+ came yesterday (what I think)

[drfeces]

I preordered (yeah preordered) a 49g+ a couple months ago and I finally got my mitts on it yesterday. I also own a 49g a TI89 and a TI83+. I used the TI83+ for quickie things (rrefing a matrix, physics, graphing regular functions and whatnot) and used the 49g for everything else. Although I loved the 49g for its features, its one sticky area was the it was kinda slow. The 49g was very handy for checking answers thoughout the calculus series. I never liked the TI89. Ive only used it a few times and probably will never use it again. The TI83+ ws nice because it is simple and fast. I had the chance to do some linear algebra calculations on my new 49g+ last night it is noticably faster than the 49g. The screen bigger and easier to read than the 49g's. The buttons are easier to press and it beeps when you do something wrong (nice). Havet had a chance to really check out any of the algebra/calculus stuff yet but from what Ive seen so far, HP has made a damn fine calc. Now go get yourself one!

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[glesga_kiss]

Ocassionly, I'll run into something while I'm working on the computer that requires me to do some quick math. What do I do? Pick up my TI calculator that I leave sitting by it and punch it in.

That's great when you are at home, but sometimes it's handy to have things on the move. My cellphone has an TI59 emulated calculator on it, meaning I get full functionality without needing to carry anything else with me. It works by mapping the number keys to the number keys on the calculator (and a few others), with a scrolling selection box to press the other buttons.

Sure, it's not as nice as using a real one, but the convienence means there will always be a demand for PDA/phone calculators.

But...

[Uncle Gropey]

...will they also act as a remote control and play Tetris?

Re:HP still dropping calc line - NOT

[Anonymous Coward]

OTOH, could you imagine them saying "these are the last calculators that we'll be making, and all of our customers will be orphaned in 18 months?"

This is why you have to show your work?

[vistic]

In all my CS, Math, and Physics courses... NO work = NO credit.

The best thing I use my TI-89 for is to just double check if I'm not sure I got the right answer on a tough calculus problem on my own... or to find the square root of 0.123123596949 or to do graphing or calculate a regression line for data or such.

Now... if they could make a calculator that not only showed you the answer, but showed you all the steps to get to that answer (the way a human would do it, not using calculator's algorithms), then that would be pretty bad. I'd probably want one, though.

HP49G+ Tutorials

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a good tutorial page Here. It shows how to do stuff step by step on the 49G/G+.

Lots of screenshots and other info (including one with a '128MB free memory' window!)

Re:HP doesn't get it yet. Word is Convergence.

[Slack3r78]

I don't dispute that at all. I use the calculator built into my cell phone quite often -- when I'm away from the computer. I guess my point is, that anyone who's going to buy something like this buys it to get work done, not really as something to carry around with them everywhere they go. A simple, emulated calculator is fine for the type of math I might run into when I'm not trying to get anything major done, but is completely insufficient for solving anything of any real complexity.

EXPERIMENT: Please do not Mod Down!

[ThisIsAnExampleAccou]

ThisIsAnExampleAccount@yahoo.com
I am currently running an experiment to see which spambots are collecting addresses from Slashdot. Please do not mod this message down. In fact, if you could mod this up, that would be great. I will publish the results of this experiment as soon as it is complete. Hopefully the results will be usefull to all /. denizens. Thanks! ThisIsAnExampleAccount@yahoo.com

Wow.

[EskimoDave]

I don't think I'm nerdy enough for this site anymore.

I actually have an HP 49g+

[LogicHoleFlaw]

I've had one of these for about 2 weeks now. My folks preordered it for me for my last birthday.. came in the mail just recently.

It's a beast of a calculator. It does everything I want a calculator to do. It's nice that someone's finally made some concessions to modern computing - USB, SD memory cards, a 75mhz processor. Very nice.

This thing is wicked fast. 3d graphing with free camera movement. Symbolic integration. Solving large systems of equations. It's great.

The interface is nice too. The buttons have a solid "click" to them, and the key layout is very nice. I'd never used RPN before, but once I realized that it was just a stack machine, I felt right at home. And there are some handy shortcuts for manipulating the stack in various ways. Slick.

The Equation Writer mode is very nice too. Enter an equation and it shows up in a graphical "Textbook mode" which makes for easy verification that you typed a particular equation in properly.

The manual is kind of bollocks though. It's verbose and doesn't really explain the underlying "why we do things this way" design principles of the device. It runs through examples but doesn't really explain why we are pressing these keys in this sequence. There *is* a 1000-page PDF file on the CD that came with the calculator, but I haven't delved very deeply into it yet.

One thing I do appreciate about the calculator is that it's running a saturn emulation, so the software is just like the previous HP48 jobs. That means I can run all of the software over at www.hpcalc.org, and I get the advantage of a thoroughly debugged calculator. I think that's pretty cool.

Here's a question though - I don't have a PC of my own at the moment (shock! horror!), but I've been using Knoppix to help ease the hurting. Knoppix is capable of using USB drives to store profile data and home directory type stuff. Can you clever slashdot folks think of a way to use my HP49g+ with SD memory card as a USB drive to store my Knoppix home directory? I think that might be an efficient use of my resources at hand...

Yoda...

[Nom du Keyboard]

Yoda, an HP calculator, uses.

Re:HP Bring back the 16C !!! Cold Dead Hands

[Nom du Keyboard]

HP bring back the Computer Scientist 16C! It only sells on ebay for between $150 - $300 USD.

Not mine. Nobody gets it until they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

Re:HP: Where's the updated 16c? 64-bits

[Nom du Keyboard]

The HP-16C (and no, you can't have mine) was doing 64-bit math in 1982. Only now have the G5 and AMD-64 caught up in the desktop space.

Definitely ahead of its time.

Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these things

[thelizman]

...oh wait, someone did that. Sorry, just got sentimental for the olden days of yesteryear.

My HP 15C got stolen...

[Anonymous Coward]

about two weeks ago, after I'd had it for over 20 years. (How many examples of consumer digital electronics can you think of that are even *worth* stealing 20 years after it came out?) I just put in an order for a 49g+. It's more calculator than I really need, but the non-HP alternatives are all less than I need. Infix notation is for reading, but RPN is for calculating.

Yuck! Come On HP Wake UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Great CPU, Great memory, but what happen with the screen? still low res LCD. And the keyboard the same chewing gum keys that HP49? where are the old and good HP48S keys?

Re:Yuck! Come On HP Wake UP

[Anonymous Coward]

learn to read :-) The keyboard is now plastic, almost as good as the HP48GX

MOD PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree!

HP 49Gs DO suck

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact of the matter is, the HP49G looks a whole lot better than it really is. A person would be better off using a TI86 for algebra because it is faster (especially graphing, no matter the resolution size). By the time you need the advanced features (also slow) that the HP49G offers, it is about time to use maple and matlab anyway.

Just for giggles, wannna know what calculator I carry around with me? The HP32SII.

I still say, the HP49G sucks.

Re:Can they compete against PDAs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not without a real keyboard. A Jornada 720 is different or better yet: a HP 200LX (I have a HP 700LX Omnigo+Nokia 2110i) VPN

Re:HP 49Gs DO suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think the 49G+ came out? the 49G is waaay to slow. The + should be much nicer.

Re:HP 49Gs DO suck

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe the 49G is not fast enough for you (or me), but you don't know about the 75Mhz 49g+. It will calculate a numerical 20*20 matrix faster than a 4*smaller 10*10 is done in your TI !!! VPN

Re:HP 49Gs DO suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Well put it this way. I certainly don't plan on buying a 49G+. I'll track down my own personal lab rat first... and maybe miracles do happen and I'll be blown away by what I was hoping for in the 49G in the beginning, just a little later in the 49G+. We'll see. I'll give it that.

Re:HP 49Gs DO suck

[Anonymous Coward]

who cares? who will ever need to do that on a calculator. my ti83 is more powerful then any hp. hp cannot even integrate symbolically!

Re:HP Bring back the 16C !!! Cold Dead Hands

[Anonymous Coward]

Wish granted! Where do you live?

Re:Your Calcula-Tor is no match for The Abacusian.

[Anonymous Coward]

79370052598409973737585281963615413019574666394992 65049041428809126082528121095866367721066311104785 .E-99
using HP 49g+ and LongFloat library. VPN