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Its also twice as ugly though.

I have to agree. Aesthetics isn't the *only* thing that matters to me, but there's no way I'd buy that thing (or the Neuros) just because I couldn't stand to look at it. That white band around it looks like those old white wall Chevy tires from the 1950's.

You can get a Neuros 20gig for $200. That's an upgradable 20gig player with built in FM transmitter.

And open source firmware / software.

So in fact you can get a 'much larger capacity' for $50 less.

Not to mention when the Li-Ion battery dies, it's $12 to replace, as opposed to the iPod, which costs about $106 to replace.

Actually, there is the Neuros which is 20GB, supports Ogg and MP3 and has an FM tuner. It can even record. The best thing about it is the price at only $199, it is hard to beat.

For my money my favorite is still the Neuros

As for Linux support, it works great and there is a good Linux client

Neuros 20GB:
- Needs software like the Karma (but open source, linux version, cool dev community)
- MP3, WAV, OGG, (FLAC beta)
- Voice, radio, line-in recording to WAV, MP3
- FM tuner and Transmitter
- other Misc features (site)

IMO, you can't really have a compressed audio "jukebox" without the ability to play your music anywhere with almost any device.

The song browsing by filesystem or media library on the iHP is nice though.

Have you considered the Neuros? neurosaudio.com. I just came across this device a few days ago, and it looks like a good product with good features. Anyone have any comments?

Then get a Neuros. They have a nice 20GB player that plays OGG and MP3 for $199. It has MyFi which allows you to broadcast the music on your Neuros through any FM radio, an FM tuner to listen to the radio, it allows you to record from the FM tuner or from an line input or the built-in mic. It also has someting called HiSi that lets you record a 30 second MP3 and it can identify that song for you from the Neuros online database. And, it has 10 hours of continuous playback with rechargeable Lithium Ion battery. I liked it because of the price and it supported OGG. It is a very good deal that is hard to beat.

The Neuros has an interesting following, one company He offers services to replace the 2.5 drives in the stock enclosures. I'm not sure, but I would bet that if you wanted an empty enclosure he'd sell you one.

Thanks, it is not a subject I have any need to take the time for since I own a different brand portable, but I will now correct the sales people when they mispeak if I hear it again. One of my more insipid vices :)

While invalidating alot of my angst :) you haven't changed the fact that the word is simply not out there among the masses.

I'll retract my original statement with glee, I'm always happy to see good ecological practices. However, Apple needs to edumuhcate the sales forces at their various retail outlets since as long as the word is out that batteries can't be replaced, the units will continue to be thrown away.

Perhaps allowing the retail outlets to

A] Use the battery program and then resell used units (to give the retail outlet a bit of recompense for not getting to sell the extra units that this myth has propogated) if the owner wishes to upgrade, creating a "swap" program

and/or

B] be allowed to upsell the cost of replacement to something like $120 for people who don't want to have the hassle of dealing with the program (sadly, I would be one of those people who would much rather drop something like that off for an extra $20 and pick it up from the same store a week or two later rather than have to track the shipping and insurance ... I hate that stuff).

and/or

C] run a few "spiffs" that will give bonuses to the stores who have some form of highest battery replacement ratio:sales for a couple of months. Say, give away 50 iPods (enough that theoretically one could go to each state ... not sure how well the iPod sells out of the states and to be honest, I would trust a non-U.S.A. sales chain to know more about the recycle/replace policies).

Would be enough to get the outlets educated properly. I see similar problems as far as sales force education from things like TiVo, etc, and most can be solved with just a little extra effort from their internal marketing and sales departments. I guess I get more frustrated by it since I've seen such programs work well in the past.

Naturally there will always be the "New Guy" or the "One Who Makes It Up To Get A Sale" (though there would be fewer of those with a spiff program or an upsale program), nothing will magically educate everyone, but it would be a start. Had these compu-shops been in a techno un-savvy area I might not think twice, but both were in Broomfield/Boulder area of Colorado and I know that one of the sales people is an ex-tech person from a prior conversation and that he has owned an iPod in the past (he didn't understand why I might be interested in a Neuros instead of an iPod about a year ago when I was shopping around).

This is a good player, though a little pricey IMO. I think the Neuros has the same features and cost much less.

$200+ for a device that only has 2GB? No thanks. For $199 I can get a Neuros player that is 20GB and can play OGG and MP3. The code for the Neuros is also Open Source, unlike the proprietary software that comes with the iPod. Doe Apple realease Linux software for their iPod? Or would one have to use unofficial software? I personally would rather support a company that wants to let their users work in the environment that they choose by either making the code Open Source or putting out an official client.

$200+ for a device that only has 2GB? No thanks. For $199 I can get a Neuros player that is 20GB and can play OGG and MP3. The code for the Neuros is also Open Source, unlike the proprietary software that comes with the iPod. Doe Apple realease Linux software for their iPod? Or would one have to use unofficial software? I personally would rather support a company that wants to let their users work in the environment that they choose by either making the code Open Source or putting out an official client.

With the iFP-300 and 500 series players, they give you a choice between MP3+Ogg and MP3+WMA firmwares.

Or you could just get a Neuros and have all ove the above + great support + a very open* company + scalable hardware. It has its flaws, but its getting better with every firmware release, not to mention they just opened sourced their syncing software and plan to open their firmware at some point as well.

*Not open-source (yet), just very open about their business and plans. The CEO of the company and his wife regularly post on the forums. Heck, I've even gotten email responses from them. Try getting that level of commitment from any of the other big name mp3 players.

1) Ogg/Vorbis is supported by (obscure mp3 player). Why should I get that (*drool*) new, affordable iPod?

2) Ogg/Vorbis can work in a DRM-based business model! Here is how: Step 1: Get five candles and a live goat.

1) Ogg/Vorbis is supported by (obscure mp3 player). Why should I get that (*drool*) new, affordable iPod?

2) Ogg/Vorbis can work in a DRM-based business model! Here is how: Step 1: Get five candles and a live goat.

Exactly. That is why there are many players that support OGG Vorbis now. Neuros, Rio, IRiver and a buch of others. I personally do not want to be locked into a proprietary format like wma or Apple's AAC. And I would never buy an iPod that limitis what I can do with music I buy. I personally don't understand the Apple Fan Boy mentality. On one hand they cheer Open Source and screem how Apple is now BSD on the inside. Though they over look all of the proprietary Apple formats that are attempts to lock comsumers into Apple. Quicktime, Apple's AAC, their restrictive iPod and iTunes, and just about every product they put out. I personally am sick of companies trying to control what I can do with a product I purchase to further their profits. I will stick to buying a CD and legally ripping it to OGG and playing it on a portable player like the Neuros that supports it. Read this quickly, because soon Apple Fan Boys will be along and wet their pants and mod this as a troll.

sure i know it takes the surprise out of it, but i think you will be much happier in the long run. my dad asked me point blank what i wanted for christmas. i thought about it for a couple days and i told him that i wanted a neuros. he was actually happy to get me something that i wanted, and i'm pleased with what he got me. sure there was little surprise in this present, but i dont really mind.

Probably not. Yes, OGG is an open standard. Yay. That's nice. I don't feel like re-encoding 10GB of songs.

This is the same question you just asked. Are you expecting a different answer?

What does the Neuros run on? Happy rays of sunshine?

Within Warranty (90 days parts, 1 year labor)
-If within first 90 days of purchase - NO CHARGE
-Past 90 days, but within 1 year- $7

Outside of Warranty
Neuros 128- $8
Neuros HD- $12

Is there support for OGG files?
Can I use it between my home PC and my work PC both of which run Linux?
Can I copy a new track to the iPod at home and then download from it to my work PC?
Will it play those files that I want to copy FROM IT to my other PC?

For some reason it sounds like it doesn not. And if that is the case, then this player is not worth a dime to me. I read some post here that are trying to say that if you want to copy YOUR music from YOUR iPod, then you are somehow a theif! What utter crap-ola. Oh, and if Apple thinks I am going to pay $100 for a portable player and then $50 for batteries, they are nuts. 50% the cost of the original product for a battery?

A much better player IMO is the Neuros. It is 20GB, very sleek looking, and it supports OGG and MP3, all for only $199.

For more players that support the Open Source OGG format, take a look here Vorbis Hardware

I know all the Apple zealots will mod me a troll, though that is not my intent. Just because Apple puts out some product does not make it great. When you compare the features of the iPod with other players, the iPod just falls short IMO. I am sorry, but I DO NOT want DRM and I DO NOT want a company I purchase a product from (Apple) to assume I am a theif and prevent me from copying audio I LEGALLY own.

the neuros does pretty cheap too my emph' added:


The NiMH batteries in the Neuros and the Lithium Ion battery in the Neuros HD are expected to last at least 1 1/2 - 2 years (depending on usage). Only our Neuros technical team can replace the battery for you and, as a result, it is not consumer-serviceable. Our battery replacement policy is as follows.

Within Warranty (90 days parts, 1 year labor)
-If within first 90 days of purchase - NO CHARGE
-Past 90 days, but within 1 year- $7

Outside of Warranty
Neuros 128- $8
Neuros HD- $12

To have your battery replaced, please send us the Backpack portion of your Neuros in a padded envelope with your name, address, phone number, e-mail (along with a check payable to Neuros Audio) to:

Neuros Audio
Attn: Battery Replacement
1941 N Hawthorne Ave
Melrose Park, IL 60160


really? i didn't think so either.

you're a pretty comprehensive thinker.

I did the eMusic thing for about 8 months, mostly hitting their classic jazz selections on the Prestige, Riverside, and Verve labels--all RIAA members. I was a fan, but I never got the Linux client to work

Line in

FM

Built-in mic
Plays most formats
Support customer mods
$12 battery replacements

"Open source foundation Xiph.org, founders of the Ogg Vorbis codec, released the first beta of Neurosetta, the firmware upgrade that makes the Neuros the first portable hard drive player to support Ogg Vorbis playback."

- Neuros: News Item -

So, it seems, according to Neuros' site, the Vorbis format is NOT supported on memory only players...

You could just get one Neuros bundle and switch backpacks based on your activity. That's what I do and it works perfectly.

This is in addition to the promised USB2.0 support. The early adopters who bought units before July 31 were promised an upgrade that isn't going to happen - ever. There won't be USB2.0 backpacks at all, nor does it look like there'll be upgrades of any kind for the upgradable backpack. So it's hard not to be down on the device since it seems to be going downhill.

Uh, have you even bothered to read the forums or even post your concerns? Have you thought to ask the company? It has been done a number of times, and answers abound. Hell, the CEO of Neuros posted regarding such rumors on Slashdot just a week or so ago. Because you obviously don't have one, I'll help you find a clue. Go here and read. That's just one discussion thread on the forums. There are many many more you can find. So, perhaps you can be a little more productive then spreading FUD...but given your sour nature, I seriously doubt it.

I'd tell you here that the USB 2.0 units are currently in beta, but you could read for yourself. Hell, you don't even have to read that carefully to see how far off base you are. 2.0 upgrades for early adopters are going to happen regardless of how much you want to spread the rumor that they will not.

From the forum discussion referenced above:

As Jeff said, the Neuros is certainly not toast, in fact, I'm very excited about the future of the Neuros. As I've made no secret of we have done some restructuring, but that it's because we're exiting the business is complete bunk. We simply needed to make some changes to be more competitive.

I'm using a new USB 2.0 40GB unit as we speak and we're working to release that to broader production, but it just hasn't passed QA yet. We have a bunch of new enhancements in the works, smaller, faster, sleeker, etc.

Take my word, there is no investing group, and no plug being pulled, and of course there are no guarantees of success either. What there is a group of very passionate folks, from engineers and software developers to customer service folks working hard on the Neuros to make sure that the product continues to improve and that brand comes to mean a place customers have the best experience in the industry. Despite all our mistakes and delays, that hasn't changed, and I think anyone that works here would agree on that.

Joe Born - Neuros CEO

Well, you may or may not regret the lack of USB 2.0 support very rapidly. For me, it's a non-issue as I don't move 20 gigs worth of data every couple of hours. When I got my Neuros, I selected the songs I wanted to upload to it and left it overnight when I went to sleep. Now I just add and remove a few albums at a time and for that, usb 1.x is fine. So, this has just been a non-issue for me. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having 2.0 support, but 1.0 isn't as bad for me as it is for somepeople.

As for the vorbis sounding terrible when your vorbis quality rises above 5...well, I've not had that experience and neither have a bunch of other people. Read the forums ask the questions, decide for yourself.

You seem pretty down on the Neuros tuffy... I appreciate the fact that they release beta firmware updates regularly, as they fix bugs and improve quality. I've never had a problem with a beta update on my Neuros. But if you don't want to install them, nobody forces you too. Really.

Your conclusion that the lack of updates on the firmware at open.neurosaudio.com make the whole device incomplete and practically unmaintained is misleading and dishonest. While you can't get firmware updates at that url, you can select from a number of Beta and Point Release updates here. Additionally, Neuros makes pre-beta updates available as well.

Add to this the fact that there are a few open source projects out there supporting the Neuros, and I start to question how you arrive at your conclusion unless you ignore the facts.

Unmaintained? Pshaw! The latest beta (with ogg integrated with all of the other formats already supported by the Neuros) was released less than a month ago. You may want to catch up on your reading:

The source code for the application that handles uploads and downloads to and from the Neuros is written in Python and is due to be released to the public tomorrow. As far as I know, this software is Windows only.

However, there is much better software out there for handling this (even if you are on a windows PC). I recommend the opensource solution available on SourceForge. It's called Neuros Database Manipulator, is written in Java, and it should work in any OS that can run Java applications. It's slick, fast, and stable. Most people give up on the software that ships with the Neuros and start using this immediately.

If you want a solution written exclusively for Linux, check out the Positron software. You can read about this from the project sponsors, thos guys at Xiph.

If you have any specific questions about whether it will work on your specific OS build, I'd read and post to the Neuros forums. They have a great community support system, and the company is very much invested in answering questions as well. So, it's not unusual to get responses from the community, Neuros tech support, and even the Neuros CEO. Check it out.

So, there are a bunch of options available for ya, even if you aren't on an x86 computer.

The 128MB Neuros costs $99. Cheap enough for you?

Have you considered the Neu... Oh never mind.

Check out the Neuros.

Oh yeah, it also plays ogg, wma, mp3... Sync manager is open source. Hard Drive is standard laptop hard drive (replace it with a bigger one if you want).

I mean jeez, I can't think of a better value out there.

Check it out dude.

I dunno. I have an older car (1995) that only had a tape-deck/radio. Since I have a large collection of music ripped to MP3 format, I was growing more and more dissappointed that I could not listen to my music in my car. I started investigating replacing the in-dash radio with a CD player that would read MP3's. Still, this was an imperfect option for me, cause I would still have to deal with CDs which are a pain in the butt to keep from getting scratched, out of direct sunlight, away from extremes of hot and cold, etc... I had resigned myself to dealing with this, as it was certainly better than nothing...but having burned mp3 cd's in the past, I realized that 700megs of music (+/-) is but a fraction of my collection and at best, an mp3 cd player was but a fractional step in the right direction.

So, I resigned myself to spending some cash and started researching players. Then I stumbled across this guy, and I got excited. For $229 bucks I could house 20gigs worth of music. It broadcasts audio on the FM dial, so all I had to do was tune my radio station to the Neuros broadcast station and viola, music instantly available. ...it beats the hell outta ripping apart my dash to play mp3 disks.

What's even better is that at $229 it cost less than most of the in dash mp3/CD players I was looking at. So, I took the plunge...

Haven't had a complaint yet. Works exactly as advertised. Support folk are excellent, price was great. It's not the sleekest, or sexiest player on the market, but the damn thing is cheap, versatile, and open source. Check it out if you want a solution to playing mp3's in your car. This little thing will let you play 'em anywhere. I'd take one of these over an iPod any day.

http://www.neurosaudio.com

I dunno. I have an older car (1995) that only had a tape-deck/radio. Since I have a large collection of music ripped to MP3 format, I was growing more and more dissappointed that I could not listen to my music in my car. I started investigating replacing the in-dash radio with a CD player that would read MP3's. Still, this was an imperfect option for me, cause I would still have to deal with CDs which are a pain in the butt to keep from getting scratched, out of direct sunlight, away from extremes of hot and cold, etc... I had resigned myself to dealing with this, as it was certainly better than nothing...but having burned mp3 cd's in the past, I realized that 700megs of music (+/-) is but a fraction of my collection and at best, an mp3 cd player was but a fractional step in the right direction.

So, I resigned myself to spending some cash and started researching players. Then I stumbled across this guy, and I got excited. For $229 bucks I could house 20gigs worth of music. It broadcasts audio on the FM dial, so all I had to do was tune my radio station to the Neuros broadcast station and viola, music instantly available. ...it beats the hell outta ripping apart my dash to play mp3 disks.

What's even better is that at $229 it cost less than most of the in dash mp3/CD players I was looking at. So, I took the plunge...

Haven't had a complaint yet. Works exactly as advertised. Support folk are excellent, price was great. It's not the sleekest, or sexiest player on the market, but the damn thing is cheap, versatile, and open source. Check it out if you want a solution to playing mp3's in your car. This little thing will let you play 'em anywhere. I'd take one of these over an iPod any day.

http://www.neurosaudio.com

www.neurosaudio.com

Given the recent fuss over the iPod's $200 battery replacement charge, this should be worth checking out before purchase.

DI has been very committed to their Neuros Audio player. I have one and I love it. DI is still creating firmware updates AND continuing development on their new Neuros units.

Someone else has mentioned this before. The founder, Joe Born, responded.

This may also explain some more on the rumors.

you might wanna check out the Neuros player.

Then of course there is the Neuros, which has had .ogg support for months and months and months, is cheaper ($229 for device with a CF and a HD backpack) than both the iPod and the Rio, is modular, and is in the process of open sourcing their software and firmware.

But, it isn't made by apple so nobody knows about it.

-=-Neuros. For those who know.-=-

I got a Neuros from the Neuros online store and I am very happy with my purchase. They are running a sale right now and you can get a Neuros in a bundle that includes 2 backpacks: 128 Flash and 20 Gb HD (read the website if you don't know about the Neuros backpack concept) and some accesories for less than 250$ shipped. I don't wanna marketing for them, I just think it's a great deal! Down side: it uses USB 1.1 so transfers can take a long time especially when you sync the 20 Gb HD for the first time (~10 hours). This device supports OGG, WAV, WMA and MP3. There're 2 sync managers and one of them is open-source and on SF.net. Digital Illusions, the manufacturer, is planning to release the device firmware source and the sync software source so that the community will be able to modify the way the player is programmed and add supports for more formats. There're also talks about getting a programming language (or scripting language) for the device so that people could write some basic applications and games for it. Anyway, check out the website! The forum is also very active.

Our battery replacement policy is as follows.

Within Warranty (90 days parts, 1 year labor)

• If within first 90 days of purchase - NO CHARGE
• Past 90 days, but within 1 year- $7
  

Outside of Warranty
Neuros 128- $8
Neuros HD- $12

Our battery replacement policy is as follows.

Within Warranty (90 days parts, 1 year labor)

• If within first 90 days of purchase - NO CHARGE
• Past 90 days, but within 1 year- $7
  

Outside of Warranty
Neuros 128- $8
Neuros HD- $12

The Neuros 128MB/20GB combo is only $229 right now... Heck, they dropped the 128MB stand-alone (which is upgradeable via the backpack system) to $99.

Obligatory Neuros plug: The developers of the Neuros (who are very active in their own forums, including the CTO) plan to open up portions of their firmware to developers (can't do everything because of the issues with licensing the tools for the TI DSP.)

Why do this indeed? The DRM on iTunes generated mp4s is very liberal. CD burns, copies, etc. Perhaps this and the long line of cracks to follow will force the industry to adopt a DRM-less format like MP3 (which plays on everything) or OggVorbis (which plays on PCs and 2 or 3 devices).

DRM-light may make the lawyers happy, but in the real world its next to nothing. I've already turned my AACs into MP3s because I don't feel like making iTunes my "one stop store/player/library!" Nor do I want to buy a cheesy little iPod when I have a kick-ass feaure-rich Neuros which plays OggVorbis.

All the RIAA has to do is keep filling the P2P networks with fake files, badly encoded files, and tracksthat only last 1 or 2 minutes as promotion items. This will help put people on the fence onto the 'buy music online' bandwagon that is rolling into town.

Let album sharing be amongst friends, face to face. You avoid getting caught by the copyright police and by buying music online you're paying artists and hopefully building a bridge to a better and more efficient distribution mode. Perhaps one that allows all that great local, indie, and undiscovered stuff to float to the top instead of what the marketers want to shove down our throad this month.

You could stop complaining about the price of the iPod and buy a Neuros instead. More features, less dollars, open source...

http://www.neurosaudio.com

Or you could just spend $229 and buy a Neuros:

What you get for your buck:

• 1 HD Backpack (20gig)
• 1 CF Backpack (128mb)
• 1 Brain (module that plugs into either backpack)

Why is this better than plugging into someone's ipod port? Easy, each Neuros has an FM transmitter in it. You can transmit your music on the FM band for anyone with a radio reciever to listen to. I don't know if the iPod has a radio reciever in it though. It's much to expensive and lacks most of the features that the Neuros has built in.

Oh yeah, works under Linux, supports ogg, takes standard laptop hardrive (for hacking and using that sweet 60gig laptop HD you have laying around), are opensourcing their software and firmware.

The two best things about the Neuros are:

1. If you transmit instead of jack, you won't get those nasty friction burns.
2. When powered on, the Neuros envolops the user in an orange colored force field, thereby protecting the user from M-16 toting RIAA Stormtroopers.

http://www.neurosaudio.com

Or you could just spend $229 and buy a Neuros:

What you get for your buck:

• 1 HD Backpack (20gig)
• 1 CF Backpack (128mb)
• 1 Brain (module that plugs into either backpack)

Why is this better than plugging into someone's ipod port? Easy, each Neuros has an FM transmitter in it. You can transmit your music on the FM band for anyone with a radio reciever to listen to. I don't know if the iPod has a radio reciever in it though. It's much to expensive and lacks most of the features that the Neuros has built in.

Oh yeah, works under Linux, supports ogg, takes standard laptop hardrive (for hacking and using that sweet 60gig laptop HD you have laying around), are opensourcing their software and firmware.

The two best things about the Neuros are:

1. If you transmit instead of jack, you won't get those nasty friction burns.
2. When powered on, the Neuros envolops the user in an orange colored force field, thereby protecting the user from M-16 toting RIAA Stormtroopers.

http://www.neurosaudio.com

Feel free to browse my previous slashdot posts to learn more about my mindset. I think you will be surprised at what you find.

One thing I can say for sure is that if I were to leave Microsoft I can guarantee you my replacement at Microsoft would be worse to you from a consumer rights perspective.

If you want to support OGG, vote with your money and buy the players that do support it- If they sell well, other manufacturers are sure to take notice.

I already do. Which is why (getting back on topic) I did not buy an ipod. I have a neuros already and I'm just waiting for the 40GB version to come out before I buy the Rio Karma.