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Of course, it leaves out a number of things, like the connection between Iraq and the 1995 OKC bombing. For that, you'll have to read this or this.

Iraq has had a lot more involvement in terror, specifically terror against the US than many people know and than the news agencies let on. We've also found a number of WMD that were never reported by the mass media. You should really read David Kay's report to congress.

A summary of David Kay's findings

more info about Iraq WMDs.

Of course, it leaves out a number of things, like the connection between Iraq and the 1995 OKC bombing. For that, you'll have to read this or this.

Iraq has had a lot more involvement in terror, specifically terror against the US than many people know and than the news agencies let on. We've also found a number of WMD that were never reported by the mass media. You should really read David Kay's report to congress.

A summary of David Kay's findings

more info about Iraq WMDs.

Of course, it leaves out a number of things, like the connection between Iraq and the 1995 OKC bombing. For that, you'll have to read this or this.

Iraq has had a lot more involvement in terror, specifically terror against the US than many people know and than the news agencies let on. We've also found a number of WMD that were never reported by the mass media. You should really read David Kay's report to congress.

A summary of David Kay's findings

more info about Iraq WMDs.

Yeah those were the two I found. This is a witch hunt if I've ever seen one. Someone appearing in a commercial as a veteran, volunteers for the Bush Cheney campaign. This guy is a low ranking nobody, which is why he was disposed of so quickly. He wanted to help Bush because he doesn't like Kerry, obviously. This is not coordination. They don't hire retired air force generals to run their campaign, although it sounds pretty nasty if you word it well.

Now, if you want to take a closer look at the ILLEGAL COORDINATION going on between the Kerry campaign and the 527s, read this.

I especially liked this photo that shows DNC Chief Operating Officer Josh Wachs, Senator Pat Leahy, and Zack Exley, the acting organizing director from Moveon.org. This was taken in November 2003, and in April 2004 Zach Exley jumped on with the Kerry campaign...

In April the Kerry for President Web site proudly announced: "Zach Exley joins the [Kerry] Internet team as Director of Online Communications and Online Organizing. He was previously the director of special projects for the MoveOn.org."

Exley claims he won't communicate with MoveOn until after the election, but when he teamed up with Kerry, MoveOn's executive director, Eli Pariser, acknowledged that Exley will be able to make use of "what he's got in his head."

And a statement issued by MoveOn when Exley signed on with team Kerry insisted that "federal election rules permit some forms of communication" between Exley and the liberal 527.

[http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/22/83 651.shtml]

How much is it gonna take for you guys to get a clue? Your news outlets don't say this stuff! Call the Fox News channel biased, they aren't even reporting this stuff! Mary Beth Cahill, swarms of lawyers and volunteers that the article doesn't even bother with. The sources are credible, the DNC website itself!!! That forged CBS document appeared in John Kerry for president commercials, and now there is a massive cover-up going on at CBS (ahem, failed cover-up). You want to go beyond illegal 527 coordination, lets talk about illegally coordinating forged "documents" between a somewhat trusted news outlet and a presidential campaign. Now we're getting into some serious charges. Do you think this is too much to believe?

The thing that really pisses me off is that SBVT has raised a pittance in comparison to moveon.org. It all comes from one guy, George Soros. If you guys are all so afraid of corporations, why don't you take a second look at George Soros? He's buying everybody out!

Stupid witch hunt. You know this does reflect the character of George Bush. The fact that his campaign will preserve its integrity by dismissing these guys after democrat finger pointing. It all plays out for the democrats and the biased broadcast news organizations who can say "Look! Look! Their ranks are breaking!" Mindless trolls.

I know why peole hate George bush so much. It's because he's a Christian with real Christian values, and there is a growing anti-Christian sentiment, a surge of religious intolerance brewing in this country. It's happened all through history, and people are blind to it. I'm not a Christian, but I'll side with them and fight against the mindless pawns of a so called "progressive" billionaire immigrant, George Soros.

Yeah those were the two I found. This is a witch hunt if I've ever seen one. Someone appearing in a commercial as a veteran, volunteers for the Bush Cheney campaign. This guy is a low ranking nobody, which is why he was disposed of so quickly. He wanted to help Bush because he doesn't like Kerry, obviously. This is not coordination. They don't hire retired air force generals to run their campaign, although it sounds pretty nasty if you word it well.

Now, if you want to take a closer look at the ILLEGAL COORDINATION going on between the Kerry campaign and the 527s, read this.

I especially liked this photo that shows DNC Chief Operating Officer Josh Wachs, Senator Pat Leahy, and Zack Exley, the acting organizing director from Moveon.org. This was taken in November 2003, and in April 2004 Zach Exley jumped on with the Kerry campaign...

In April the Kerry for President Web site proudly announced: "Zach Exley joins the [Kerry] Internet team as Director of Online Communications and Online Organizing. He was previously the director of special projects for the MoveOn.org."

Exley claims he won't communicate with MoveOn until after the election, but when he teamed up with Kerry, MoveOn's executive director, Eli Pariser, acknowledged that Exley will be able to make use of "what he's got in his head."

And a statement issued by MoveOn when Exley signed on with team Kerry insisted that "federal election rules permit some forms of communication" between Exley and the liberal 527.

[http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/22/83 651.shtml]

How much is it gonna take for you guys to get a clue? Your news outlets don't say this stuff! Call the Fox News channel biased, they aren't even reporting this stuff! Mary Beth Cahill, swarms of lawyers and volunteers that the article doesn't even bother with. The sources are credible, the DNC website itself!!! That forged CBS document appeared in John Kerry for president commercials, and now there is a massive cover-up going on at CBS (ahem, failed cover-up). You want to go beyond illegal 527 coordination, lets talk about illegally coordinating forged "documents" between a somewhat trusted news outlet and a presidential campaign. Now we're getting into some serious charges. Do you think this is too much to believe?

The thing that really pisses me off is that SBVT has raised a pittance in comparison to moveon.org. It all comes from one guy, George Soros. If you guys are all so afraid of corporations, why don't you take a second look at George Soros? He's buying everybody out!

Stupid witch hunt. You know this does reflect the character of George Bush. The fact that his campaign will preserve its integrity by dismissing these guys after democrat finger pointing. It all plays out for the democrats and the biased broadcast news organizations who can say "Look! Look! Their ranks are breaking!" Mindless trolls.

I know why peole hate George bush so much. It's because he's a Christian with real Christian values, and there is a growing anti-Christian sentiment, a surge of religious intolerance brewing in this country. It's happened all through history, and people are blind to it. I'm not a Christian, but I'll side with them and fight against the mindless pawns of a so called "progressive" billionaire immigrant, George Soros.

http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=259 Gore up 5.4%

http://www.zogby.com/search/ReadNews.dbm?ID=276 Gore now up 7%

http://www.gsm.ucdavis.edu/visitors_center/news/ha gerty_predicts_gore_win.htm UC Davis "statistical analysis" predicts Gore win

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/6 /184917.shtml Zogby predicts Gore win (Nov. 6, 2000)

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2000/ 11/06/daily19.html Online (yeah, I know) Harris poll predicts Gore win

http://www.apsanet.org/PS/march01/lewisbeck.cfm Gore post-mortem off by almost 7%

It's not that hard to dig this stuff up.

I quoted from the article you referenced, BTW - I didn't think that was too hard to follow.

Perhaps my initial post was overstated (as are yours, BTW, even moreso) - but again, more precisely, all that *I* had heard from the news was (generally speaking) larger margins for Gore, and it turned into a statistical dead heat - and similar errors in the many other issues at hand during previous elections. My links "prove" that you are a liar (or dishonest) by your logic....even with your subsequent artificial constraint about weighting later polls more heavily, and focussing exclusively on the popular vote for the president.

Are you being dishonest now, because I dug up evidence to the contrary? Hmmm....

Obviously, the polls are often off by more than their statistical margin of error. Sometimes significantly so. Perhaps I was factoring in more local, and other national issues - I did not constrain my observation to national polls of the presidential popular vote. Even still, it is easy to dig up plenty of polls that support that.

I have no intent to deceive, and I am also not a Bush supporter.

8. John Kerry will personally create thousands of jobs in America.

The next time you use a bottle of Heinz ketchup (catsup) for your "freedom fries", check to see where it has been bottled. (Hint: it's probably not inside the U.S.)

A: Behind our curtain!

I'm assuming you are talking about the windows on your own house / appartment, looney tunes.

Maybe you remember, North Korea... Axis of Evil... trying to get nukes? What does it sound like they just did?

And here is a hint: you don't throw together a nuclear weapons program that produces a weapon in 3 years. They have been at it for well over 10 years.

And see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Forget the truth, just bash the other side and hope that it sticks. Democrats are loathe to attack the substance of what the Swift Vets have to say. There are numerous, specific charges that Kerry could easily refute, if they were untrue.

However, it seems that the more that is revealed about Kerry's time in Vietnam, the more questions it produces.

OK, so the Daily Show showed that most of the funding for the Swift Vets came from Republicans... did you honestly think that Democrats were going to fund them? That still doesn't have any bearing on the substance of the attacks which, again, could be easily refuted if they were false. Turn your brain on.

And probably another little bit of truth that wasn't revealed on the Daily Show... did you know that John O'Neill, the author of Unfit for Command, voted for Al Gore in 2000 because he thought that George Bush was just an "empty suit"?

He has said repeatedly that the Swift Vets would still be doing what they're doing, even if Kerry were running on the Republican ticket. He's not pro-Bush, he's just anti-Kerry.

Kerry tried to lead a clean campaign? On what planet?

Anyway, I don't fault Kerry for it - in fact I think that critical campaigns are positive, because who else is going to point out flaws of your oponents? Certain issues are below-the-belt, but not ones relating to character and issues. Swiftees barely make the above-the-belt cut because the issue is whether or not Kerry lied to gain his purple hearts, which he regularly refers to in his campaign. However, I don't really think that his speech before congress about war crimes is relevant, because he was reporting what others told him to congress. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? I think the fact it was aired internationally was a problem, but I don't think that's Kerry's fault.

I think Bush's Vietnam record is open-season, because it goes to his truthfulness (NewsMax has a great story on this). I really don't see this campaign on either side going very much in the "too far" range, although I am perturbed that Kerry doesn't seem to have a vision.

>> Done.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to be arguing with someone who knows nothing and certainly doesn't know they're humiliating themselves with a startling amount of stupidity? This, perhaps, goes beyond your inability to comprehend the mass question regarding DU ordinance. Where in that link does Hans Blix say anything about Iraqis not experiencing freedoms and opportunities? Your link suggests the exact opposite! When Blix said, "It's positive that Saddam and his bloody regime is gone" what exactly do you think he was talking about? Presumably the fact that the Iraqi people now have access to freedoms they haven't experienced in decades.

Clearly you must be the brightest bulb in your family. There are two possibilities here. Perhaps you simply lacked the intellectual capacity to understand that the issue was whether or not you were a first class moron for saying that the Iraqi people are experiencing new freedoms and opportunities, not whether the war was the "right" or "good" thing to do. I explicitly stated that I wasn't addressing that question because it is too early to judge. What I challenged was your incalculably stupid suggestion that the Iraqis are not experiencing new freedoms and opportunities. You can't find a single person who agrees with you on that precisely because it is one of the dumbest things any human has ever said in the history of the world.


>> Oh?

Ok, I can see where that article might have misled someone as simple-minded as you are, but Senator Clinton didn't actually say that women were better off under Saddam. Look at the pdf file of the full transcript of that speech at the Brookings Institution. The portion in question is on page 19. Here is the relevant text:

"We also have to do more on women's rights and roles. And I have been deeply troubled by what I hear coming out of Iraq. When I was there and met with women members of the governing councils and local--of the national governing councils and local governing councils in Baghdad and Kirkuk, they were starting to express concerns about some of the pullbacks in the rights that they were given under Saddam Hussein. He was an equal opportunity oppressor, but on paper women had rights; they went to school; they participated in the professions; they participated in government; and business and, as long as they stayed out of his way, they had considerable freedom of movement.

Now, what we see happening in Iraq is the governing council attempting to shift large parts of civil law into religious jurisdiction. This would be a horrific mistake and especially for it to happen on our watch. And I have spoken to the White House about this on several occasions. I appreciated Ambassador Bremer speaking out about the need to involve women. But we must go much further. I would like to see a statement from the President. I would like to see a much greater emphasis that we will not have become the vehicle by which women's rights in Iraq are turned back."

Notice the following things if you have the mental capacity to understand them:

#1) She spoke with women on local and national governing councils, councils that didn't even exist under Saddam. Therefore those women obviously have not only gained access to freedoms and opportunities they didn't have before, they are exercising them.

#2) Senator Clinton is talking about Iraqi women's concern about what might happen in the future, based on worries about implementation of sharia in places like Afghanistan under the Taliban. That hasn't happened yet, and presumably won't. The very fact that women are on the governing councils strongly suggests that to be a flight of fancy given that any anti-female attitudes necessary for

I strongly suggest you take a moment to read Salon, The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, or The Washington Post.

Ah, yes. Salon is a great source of unbiased news. The others aren't nearly as biased as Salon, but they aren't exactly fair and impartial either. Incidentally, I've read most of the articles in the Washington Post and New York Times and their "debunking" of the Swift Boat Veterans claims isn't exactly convincing.

Indeed, Thurlow won a Bronze Star for his actions in rescuing a comrade under enemy fire.

Why don't you go to the source on this one and check out Thurlow's response. In all likelihood the language from his citation came directly from John Kerry's after action report since Kerry seems to be the only one that filed a report describing the incident.

Also, Kerry's citation claims that they were under constant small arms and automatic weapons fire for 5000 meters while they fled the scene. I'm sorry, but if that were true they would probably all be dead. Also, how did they rescue and repair the damaged PCF-3 boat if they were under constant fire?

-- Why won't he (kerry) release all his medical and other service records?

He has. The only records he has not released are his review papers.

Um, no he hasn't. Look for "Standard Form 180" and "FOIA"; the Washington Post only received six of about 100 pages. And "review papers" seem to be pretty important if we're trying to figure out if this guy deserves to be President.

Was Kerry in Cambodia? Almost certainly - Larry Thurlow, one of his chief accusers, was recorded telling Nixon that he (Thurlow) had been in Cambodia.

It was actually John O'Neill, not Thurlow, that was recorded speaking to Nixon. Also, O'Neill, unlike Kerry, does a pretty good job of clarifying the recording. Keep in mind that we don't get to hear the entire conversation from the recording.

Also, the statements you provided are both 1) nothing like what Kerry has said about Cambodia, and 2) don't address Kerry's lies about Cambodia. This isn't just a small, little claim. This is something that Kerry says was "seared -- seared -- in [him]." He has repeated this story many times for over 15 years at least, and now that it has been proven to be a total fabrication, he has been forced to change it.

First, you are stretching the term "served with him". You mean "were also in Vietnam during the war".

No, I mean served WITH him. Like on his boat, next to his boat during combat, and as his commanding officers. While not all of the Swift Boat Veterans served as closely with Kerry, I'm addressing and talking about those that did. These guys (the vocal ones of the SBVT) were eye witnesses to Kerry and their accounts should be heard.

Kerry's campaign has been forced to backtrack on his fraudulent Christmas in Cambodia story and they have now been forced to backtrack on his first Purple Heart, admitting that his wound may have been self-inflicted. From what I've seen the Swift Boat Vets have been solid in their claims and have forced Kerry to backtrack. This goes to show that there is at least some tr

Show me any link that shows any of those people saying that Iraqis haven't seen an increase in freedoms and opportunities

Senator Clinton not only didn't say what you claim she said

under 200,000 U.S. troops were involved with Iraq this time around....

You have no idea what you are talking about

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one skeptical enough to actually look up the numbers myself.

Ha ha.

and the journalist ripped the other guy to shreds

Ah, yes, this answers the question by providing an example of how the Swifties are lying. If the "journalist" ripped the guy to shreds then the Swift Boat Veterans must be lying.

he also exposed that the swift boat guy has had an agenda against Kerry for over 20 years (It's actually over 30 years)

So I suppose that George Bush has been secretly behind John O'Neill for over 30 years just so O'Neill could come out against Kerry now, right? Personally I might be upset at Kerry too if he had lied about me and then used his lies for his own personal gain over the last 30 years. Oh, and if you want to see someone "ripping the other guy to shreds," you might want to watch the John O'Neill vs. John Kerry debate of June 30, 1971.

Oh, and just so I can prove my point about providing specific examples, here are a couple from the Swift Boat Veterans:

1) John Kerry lied about Christmas in Cambodia - This is something that even John Kerry's campaign has been forced to acknowledge.

2) John Kerry lied about soldiers committing war crimes, himself included. Though it is true some small number of soldiers committed war crimes, it was not at all common to engage in these acts as Kerry describes it, nor was it fair to condemn the entire military based on the acts of a few. Also, this is an interesting point, either Kerry was truthful about committing war crimes and he, himself is a war criminal (far worse a criminal than those involved in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal I might add), or John Kerry is again lying. Which would you rather have, a pathological liar or a war criminal?

Lastly, for those who will whine and moan about why are we still talking about Vietnam, I'll tell you why. Because John Kerry can't stop talking about it! Kerry can't seem to complete a sentance without mentioning that he served in Vietnam. If Kerry wants us to look at his Vietnam record above his Senate record for the past 20 years then we're going to do it. And we won't back down.

clickable links one, two, three, four, five

When did Germany and France say there was no WMD?

Wednesday, 22 January, 2003
Speaking on French television, President Chirac said "an extra delay is necessary" to give the weapons inspectors more time to search Iraq for banned arms.

French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said Wednesday in Paris they were not convinced a war with Iraq was necessary while U.N. arms inspectors were still searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction.

France, Russia and China -- all permanent members of the council -- have made it clear they will not be rushed by any pressure from Washington for action against Saddam Hussein, and have backed a call by U.N. inspectors for more time to carry out their searches in Iraq.

And lets throw in the Beligians in there, while we're at it:
Belgian Foreign Minister Louis Michel said the planning pandered to the "logic of war." In an interview with Belgian daily Le Soir today, Michel said: "Iraq seems ready to cooperate. Let's not rush things."

As for that, I haven't heard that argument from any conservatives

That's strange, because I can't think of a single conservative mouthpiece or media source who has not said something similar to the grandparent's posting. The following comes up in the first few pages of a Google search:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp ?ID=6317
The Hate America Left
Ben Johnson, columnist, FrontPageMagazine.com

http://anncoulter.com/columns/2002/070302.htm
Liberalism And Terrorism: Different Stages Of Same Disease
Ann Coulter, AnnCoulter.com

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/weekend_sites/080 904_081304/content/what_would_happen_if.guest.html
"For every eye that has to police the protesters, that's one eye less watching for terrorists. Do they care? No... You hate the president. You hate the country."
Rush Limbaugh Transcript, 8/12/2004

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/2/26 /124459.shtml
'Hate-America Leftists' Lead the Appeasement Movement
Wes Vernon, columnist NewsMax.com

http://www.americandaily.com/article/917
"People who hate America... these are John Kerry's constituents"
JB Williams, columnist, The American Daily

http://www.americandaily.com/article/2390
The Hate-America Crowd Speaks Its Mind
Doug Patton, columnist, The American Daily

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/07/04/loc_br onson4.html
Hate-America crowd has its own picnic
Cincinati Inquierer, columnist, Peter Bronson

http://www.wtoctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2028797
"Why are people who hate America still living here?"

Bill Carthcart, WTOC 11, Savannah Georgia
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp 20040706.shtml

Michael Moore and the problem of American self-hatred
Dennis Prager, Townhall.com

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArti cle.asp?ID=14125
Hate-America Advocates
Jean Pearce, Frontpage Magazine

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2159
American Academics Who Hate America
Daniel Pipes, Capitalism Magazine

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArti cle.asp?ID=9298
A Hate-America Superhero
Joshua Elder, FrontPageMagazine.com

Also:
- Hezbollah
- Al-Jazeera
- Red China
- Fidel Castro
- The Mafia
- The Sandinistas

Also:
- Hezbollah
- Al-Jazeera
- Red China
- Fidel Castro
- The Mafia
- The Sandinistas

Also:
- Hezbollah
- Al-Jazeera
- Red China
- Fidel Castro
- The Mafia
- The Sandinistas

Contrary to the view that Bush is currently attempting to defend, there really doesn't appear to be a solid link between the Jihadis and Saddam's regime, which I've admittedly found very confusing, (yes lefties, I know, "duh").

Of course that's ignoring the fact that Saddam paid the families of Suicide bombers in "Palestine" $50,000 (imagine how much that can buy in that shithole) each. And while we're at it let's also forget that that Iraq had multiple active Al-Qaeda training camps in its borders pre-war. I guess when you ignore those and the fact that top-level Al-Quada officials received safe-haven and aide in Iraq, then yeah... there's no connection at all...

You can't "stockpile" biological and chemical agents, because they have a relatively short shelf life (compared to conventional explosives). However, the delivery mechanisms can be "stockpiled", such as medium-range missles and warheads designed to deploy such agents.

This isn't true. Anthrax endospores can last, as far as we know, centuries (maybe longer, we, obviously, can't test over that kind of timeline). That's, in fact, one of the things that makes it such a good weapon. Similarly, smallpox is caused by a virus which, unlike living bacterial cells, can be dormant for, again, an indefinite period of time before coming into contact with a host.

I can't speak for too many chemical agents (I'm a Biology student), but I do know for a fact that Cyanide gas is quite stable. I would also expect chemicals like VX nerve gas or Serin to have similar shelflifes (otherwise, who would want them?)

-Grym

a threat
to
National
Security?

I don't trust my government to protect me from terrorism if that terrorism could be used to their advantage, like increasing public popularity for war with a country like Iraq to bring them our version of freedom and democracy.

Looking back its obvious to understand why these wars aren't popular, but today it seems like its very difficult to convince our leaders that diplomacy is the prefered method, or in the case of terrorism to strike directly at those groups responsible for the terror.

You are right in that the basic issue is about sheltering someone from decisions that shouldn't be made yet, guiding someone to what's best for that's person future. You wouldn't let your 5-year old get a credit card, right? Why shelter him from the responsibility of managing finances? Why do we worry about over-eating obese children then, or drug-use, or any other potentially self-destructive activity? They only do what comes naturally right? (seek pleasure). You argue one way, but what you are suggesting is exactly the oposite of responsibility. Responsibility comes after all of the consequences are understood, and the maturity exists to choose a path adequately. You can't get that from a twelve-year old, period. But you can teach that as they grow. In your analogy of getting a job with no experience, there is this thing called "education" that we engage in for years and years before we are expected to stand on our own and get a job. Education is commensurate with age: An 8 year-old has neither the background or the abstract thought ability to succeed at linear algebra. Similarly, a twelve-year old does not have the abstract thought or the background to make good sexual decisions, but that doesn't mean that the twelve-year old can't learn about the subject and grow to make responsible decisions when the time comes, just as children go through years of schooling before deemed ready to take on a job. It's immoral, irresponsible, and idiotic to ask of a 15-year old that's not done with high-school yet to get a job as a surgeon. It's also immoral, irresponsible and idiotic to ask for a 12-year old that is still mentally a child to make sexual decisions that could potentially affect that child for life.

Noticed how I didn't mention religion, but you have. You have some pre-conceived notions about conservatism == restrictive == religious that sound like talking points more than a genuine understanding of the other side (I was up through college quite the liberal by comparison). I suggest that you open your eyes to what's really happening. I submit to you that in average conservatives are happier and more fulfilled, because they take advantage of philosophies thousands of years in the making aimed at accomplishing just that, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel because they think they know better.

Well, at least the polls seem to disagree with you on your last point:

Conservatives are more fullfilled than liberals

Bush fact of the day: Supports abortion, just not in this country. When it happens in MFN china, it's OK.

Kerry fact of the day: Opposes abortion, just not in this country. When it happens anywhere else, it's OK. His conscious is clear, as a good Catholic.

Moron.

Where's your warrent to support your claims that Hitchens is as bad as Moore is? Until I see any sort of proof backing up your statement, I can only assume it is false. Otherwise, I would be just as justified to believe the grandparent.

Until then, here's a link to think about.

And what happens if you mix both type of predictions, the self-unfulfilling (stock market) kind, and the self-fulfilling kind (US pres elections).

Yes, you get a nice September surprise (due to all the plebs leaning hard on the dollar, in anticipation that the big guy does...). But, in this case, a September surprise is also a nice surprise ;-)

Is Soros Planning 'October Surprise' for Bush?

Nah, bad idea, Georgie: all this is going to do is give Bush another excuse for calling off the presidential elections. Your money is better invested in a hitman, plus it will be lots cheaper!

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons.

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined.

As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons.

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined.

As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

The Washington Times reports military officials have uncovered about 8,700 weapons depots and continue to find new ones. They estimate the weapons depots in Iraq contain between 650,000 and 1 million tons of arms, which are believed to be a source for anti-coalition forces.

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons.

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined.

As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

For the last few weeks I've had this gnawing belief that bin Laden got lucky by attacking during Bush's term. Conventional wisdom says the opposite, because Bush fought back. But he's the enemy now. I ask my Democrat friends what they'd rather see happen - Bush reelected and bin Laden caught, or Bush defeated and bin Laden still in the wind. They're all honest: they'd rather see Bush defeated. (They're quick to insist that they'd want Kerry to get bin Laden ASAP. Although the details are sketchy.) Of course this doesn't mean they're unpatriotic, etc., obligatory disclaimers, et cetera. But let's be honest. People are coming up with websites that demonstrate ingenious technology for spraying anti-Bush slogans on the sidewalks; it would be nice if they sprayed "DEFEAT TERRORISM" or "STOP AL QAEDA" now and then. Wouldn't it?

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons.

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined.

As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

Yes, China. Give them a few years.

Most recent example

Do you mean the station that is in such a poor financial position because of their annoying talk show hosts and crappy content that they had to fire some of the top execs and then could not even afford to pay their hosts so now they have extremists like Al Franken doing the show for free? No thanks.

You are an idiot. ....
Ever heard of condoms?

I am not going to call you an idiot (I don't even know you), but I will suggest that you check your facts before making a post. Condoms are not the silver bullet that some liberals would have you believe. And no, they don't protect from the plethora of other STDs that can be present around the groinal area.

Current estimates based on US studies seem to vary from 95% to 99% effectiveness of condoms in preventing AIDS through constant use. If they're used properly every single time. Still at least 1% too much when compared with 100% through abstinence.

Funny, I wonder if the pictures on your web site advocate safe sex techniques. Are there condoms/dental dams/love gloves present?

What's that? People don't want to see them being used? Why is that? Do they get in the way, perhaps?

What kind of paperwork are you talking about?

Do you have any idea what it takes to dismantle a chemical or biological weapon? It's not something you just do at lunch. The missile has to be disposed of as well as the warhead. There are proper procedures to be followed such as what you need to be wearing, how you handle the thing, etc, etc. And besides all that, they were ordered by the UN to disarm and show PROOF that they've disarmed. If they can't show PROOF, they have to be willing to let arms inspectors come in and make sure the job was done. Hell, even if they do show proof, they have to allow for outside verification. They did none of that.

the biggest reason that I will be voting against him in November is that he is an idiot.

Then you might as well just not vote because Mr. Kerry is just as bad. Does he even have a stance on any issue or does it just depend on where he's at and the time of day? Hell, just last month he flip flopped from his stance about whether Iraq had WMDs. Check it out for yourself.

I'd personally rather have someone in office that has a stance on the issues then have someone who's stance depends on the time of day.

Reading the source document PATRIOT Act instead of reading something about the PATRIOT Act written by an organization seeking funds for more Brie & Strawberry parties.

Reading the source document EO 9066 and visiting Manzanar everytime they cruise so quickly by it on their way to Mammoth or Tahoe to smoke dope, drink mundane beer and surf the slopes.

Reading Alexander Solzhenitsyn's account of the Soviet Gulag

(McCarthy && HUAC) != any americans shot, tortured, exiled, imprisoned, etc

(McCarthy && HUAC) != Cuban Isle of Pines

BTW, if there is another 9/11 then I have no doubt that it will get much worse than the Holocaust ... Gen. Franks Doubts Constitution Will Survive WMD Attack ... I hope the innocent vicitims caught in the net will have exercised their Second Amendment Rights. Will you be their beside them VIOLENTLY DEFENDING their rights or will you bleat like a sheep thinking they deserve to be herded into Camps because they happen to be the same ethnic group as the terrorists and they also compete for your script kiddy programmer job.

No illusions about the outcome of the VIOLENT DEFENSE of rights ... read about the Warsaw Ghetto

For you who love destructive criticism: :) j/k

First, there was request to provide examples that Mr. Moore is spewing propaganda. Read the quotations I posted and see the link below. "Outrageously manipulative"

By definition, propaganda is the systematic propagation of a doctrine. So yes, he's spewing it, voicing it, filming it, producting it. Choose your adverb. Spew seems more appropriate to me because of what Mr. Moore embodies.

I never said Mr. Moore did not have a right to say what he wants, I only present the argument that what he says and how he says it shouldn't be taken at face value or classified incorrectly.

It is my opinion that when one presents his or her opinion, it should be considered an editorial or commentary, just like this post.

What is this guy about?
Mr. Moore created the impression in the public that his movie was somehow being censored. This was a blatant attempt to pander to individuals who put emotion before critical thought (IMHO). All done to generate hype for his movie. It was a complete fabrication and untrue, but it's a great example of what Mr. Moore is all about.
Disney never intended to release the feature via Miramax, only to help produce it. I believe thats changed now because of the attention, though.

What is amazing to me is how the press jumped all over the censorship bandwagon, but that has since been proven to be a lie and you can hardly find a reference to the masquerade. Censorship is a red flag word that sells papers. Lest we forget they're in this to make money, right?

Propaganda is not inherently evil by any means. The vocal open source community puts forth its own arguments for using Linux etc. The difference is these arguments (when not tainted with anti-MS garbage) are normally constructive and present a good point.

However, when the only argument for using Linux is "because it's not windows" or "because windows sucks", it looses it's luster somewhat. An argument may be true, but when presented as opinion, you are making the dicision for your listener.

Michael Moore is a talented individual who creates a persuasive product to not only express his view points, but to persuade you to agree with him. I believe, as a documentary, it's tainted because he, if past behavior is any indication of future performance (see http://www.bowlingfortruth.com), presents facts out of context and not the whole truth.
If you want examples, I suggest this search as a good starting point.

I do not believe the inclusion of short video clips and a voice over constitute the classification of 'documentary'. Its most likely purely editorial comment. I can film women at an abuse center and build up to the point where I ask Mr. Kerry if he's stopped beating his wife. Does that make it a documentary?

As far as the wonders of radical politics and the great advancements it's brought to the world. Let us not forget the Nazi Party, the Crusades, McCarthyism, Fascism, the KKK, Genocide, and other atrocities.
Have there been positive things that come from extreme politics? Yes, absolutely. But, IMHO, extreme politics must been taken in context and adoption of these beliefs by individuals should only be done with careful forethought and research. Woman's suffrage, civil rights, democratic governance all ring true to what is good and proper.

Vigilance against injustice and untruth is the responsibility of the individual, not just the press, not just the government, and not just Michael Moore.
Freedom of the Press is a critical part of the checks and balances of the American government. However, which press you read and believe should always be tempered (IMHO) with what you, as an individual, believe. The truth usually tends to fall somewhere in the middle, so extremist argu

I am not being trite when I say read the US Bill of Rights.

Why? It's not like it's being respected by lawmakers.

the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property

Except that the police can just confiscate your property and you have to sue (if you still have enough money left to do so) to get it back. In the majority of seizures, the people whose property gets taken do not even get charged with a crime. Here is a good essay on this issue. Some cases where money was taken without good grounds. And no, they can't do this where I live.

rights to political dissent

A US kid got suspended for wearing a T-shirt with "Anarchy." The government actively tries to prevent people from advertising messages that go against government policy. An anti-war community organization was infiltrated by the police.

These involve a vast improvement in the rights to relief from problems with the government via a court system that despite all its flaws is orders of magnitude more likely to answer to the interests of ordinary people when they dispute with the strong and powerful than in EU or elsewhere.

The US legal system has incarcerated an extremely large part of its population. Many of those are victim of the war on drugs. However, while drug use is no lower among caucasians, three quarter of the people convicted for these crimes are black or latino. The same goes for the death penalty. Black & latino see the needle far more than caucasians. In short, your legal system certainly seems to take it out on the lower class.

As for Europe trodding on the ordinary man, do you have any evidence to back that up? Because I don't see too much of that happening here.

In the USA most people take for granted that the Police and Courts actually will deal with problems and redress without bribery.

I never had to bribe the police or the courts. What parts of the EU are you talking about? Nigeria?

EU types have been raised under a system where they delt with a thousand years of entrenched bureaucracy with its systematic and embedded corruption at a level beyond any American Imagination.

In my country (The Netherlands), 10% of the workers are government employees. In the US, it is 14%. 'Nough said.

As for corruption and bribery: according to the 2003 Corruption Perceptions Index, my EU country is ranked 7th (with a 8.9/10). The US is ranked 18 (with a 7.5/10). The Bribe Payers Index 2002 ranked The Netherlands 6th (with a 7.8/10), while the US was ranked 13th (with a 5.3/10).

Much of the current Economic troubles in the USA and Social Discord are the result of this trend towards EU solutions and methods.

An important reason for social discord in the US seems to be that a small part of the population is screwing the rest. The only reason why many people have to work two jobs, while others have more money than they can spend in two lives, is because they believe the bullshit of "what is good for business is good for you."

In synopsis, the EU is a Bureacratic Super State where Citizens have no particular rights except those granted by PERMIT.

Do you know that the Union has a really low number of bureaucrats (~30.000) and that the nations have very strong control over what the Union does? NO, of COURSE you DIDN'T know, did you? Shouting hard is much easier than providing proof, isn't it?

The Brussels system will further dominate the area by an Oligarchy and the delivery of individual freedom in

There is also the case of Abu Zubayr, an officer in Saddam's secret police who was also the ringleader of an al Qaeda cell in Morocco. He attended the September 5, 2001 meeting in Spain with other al Qaeda operatives, including Ramzi Bin-al-Shibh, the 9/11 financial chief. Abu Zubayr was apprehended in May, 2002, while putting together a plot to mount suicide attacks on U.S. ships passing through the straits of Gibraltar. He has allegedly since stated that Iraq trained and supplied chemical weapons to al Qaeda. In the fall of 2001 al Qaeda refugees from Afghanistan took refuge in northern Iraq until they were driven out by Coalition forces, and Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an al Qaeda terrorist active in Europe and North Africa, fled from Baghdad during Operation Iraqi Freedom. He has reportedly been sent back to Iraq to coordinate al Qaeda activities there.

Take note of Al-Zarqawi. You can read some of what he has to say about the war in Iraq in my next response.

Iraq also sheltered Abu Nidal, one of the most notorious terrorists of the 70s and 80s who appears to have links to 9/11. Oddly enough, Nidal committed "suicide" by shooting himself multiple times, in the head IIRC, not long before the war.

and now we're handing it over to Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda doesn't feel that way. Here is what their leader in Iraq, Al-Zarqawi, has to saw about their fighters and efforts there only a few months ago:

1. Most of them have little expertise or experience, especially in organized collective work. Doubtlessly, they are the result of a repressive regime that militarized the country, spread dismay, propagated fear and dread, and destroyed confidence among the people. For this reason, most of the groups are working in isolation, with no political horizon, farsightedness, or preparation to inherit the land. Yes, the idea has begun to ripen, and a light whisper has arisen to become noisy talk about the need to band together and unite under one banner. But matters are still in their initial stages. With God?s praise, we are trying to ripen them quickly.

2. Jihad here unfortunately [takes the form

McCarthyism is a myth perpetuated by a liberal American media. Read about it.

What American would ever use the word "arsed"?

A wonderful, but sadly neglected word :)

Oh, right, Bush sucking up to Blair.

Isn't it the other way round, since Blair has much more to gain. The UK is not exactly a superpower. Most people that I know over here in the UK feel we are turning into a third-world country. AFAICT it's already happened. However, it would appear that there are those who feel this is happening in the US as well, so maybe it's a global thing.

"And British culture is so bloody wonderful!"

I don't know who you're quoting, or paraphrasing (Bush I guess), but that isn't my view.

First and foremost, I consider myself a "Netizen". Then I'm Scottish. I'm not British, nor European - despite what is says on my passport.

Air America Host 'Jokingly' Calls for Bush Hit

One of the leading hosts on the unofficial radio network of the Democratic Party recommended in an apparent "joke" earlier this week that President Bush should be assassinated, reports the New York Daily News.

Comparing Bush and his family to the Corleones of "Godfather" fame, Air America host Randi Rhodes reportedly unleashed this zinger during her Monday night broadcast: "Like Fredo, somebody ought to take him out fishing and phuw. "

Rhodes then imitated the sound of a gunshot.

Since you probably don't consider NewsMax a reliable source (it's your loss, not mine), here is the original article.

Now you're complaining about a President that is stopping the hypocrisy. He's telling evil governments of all sizes to stop hurting people. The first priority is those who are exporting death. You can see the U.S.A. government is also removing support for repressive "friendly" regimes such as Saudi Arabia. The U.S.A. is also giving proper consideration to the authority of a U.N. which is dominated by governments which are not democracies.

Yet you're against the leader who is stopping the hypocrisy, and support someone who is making a profession of it.
John Kerry thinks it is a good thing to

• claim he voted for and against something,
• to state Saddam was a danger and was not a danger,
• who lies about Vietnam and his behavior
  • advertises that his being a Vietnam veteran is important
  • led Vietnam Veterans Against The War
  • used unconfirmed statements from VVAW's Winter Soldier Investigation in testimony to Congress...and these atrocity stories were from people who were never Vietnam combat veterans
  • lied that he was only an observer at Winter Soldier
  • said on "Meet the Press" that he committed atrocities
  • did not see atrocities and not in battle described on his web site
  • lied that he was not at a VVAW meeting in Kansas City
• and who can't even stop himself from saying
  • he doesn't own an SUV (New Hampshire),
  • does own an SUV (Michigan),
  • doesn't own an SUV (Earth Day - the family owns it),
  • and does own an SUV (say, does the family Gulfstream jet aircraft count?),
  • and family has more SUVs

Now, how are you going to "make sure" someone like that is going to do any specific thing which you approve of? Be consistent, you say.

Now you're complaining about a President that is stopping the hypocrisy. He's telling evil governments of all sizes to stop hurting people. The first priority is those who are exporting death. You can see the U.S.A. government is also removing support for repressive "friendly" regimes such as Saudi Arabia. The U.S.A. is also giving proper consideration to the authority of a U.N. which is dominated by governments which are not democracies.

Yet you're against the leader who is stopping the hypocrisy, and support someone who is making a profession of it.
John Kerry thinks it is a good thing to

• claim he voted for and against something,
• to state Saddam was a danger and was not a danger,
• who lies about Vietnam and his behavior
  • advertises that his being a Vietnam veteran is important
  • led Vietnam Veterans Against The War
  • used unconfirmed statements from VVAW's Winter Soldier Investigation in testimony to Congress...and these atrocity stories were from people who were never Vietnam combat veterans
  • lied that he was only an observer at Winter Soldier
  • said on "Meet the Press" that he committed atrocities
  • did not see atrocities and not in battle described on his web site
  • lied that he was not at a VVAW meeting in Kansas City
• and who can't even stop himself from saying
  • he doesn't own an SUV (New Hampshire),
  • does own an SUV (Michigan),
  • doesn't own an SUV (Earth Day - the family owns it),
  • and does own an SUV (say, does the family Gulfstream jet aircraft count?),
  • and family has more SUVs

Now, how are you going to "make sure" someone like that is going to do any specific thing which you approve of? Be consistent, you say.

Now you're complaining about a President that is stopping the hypocrisy. He's telling evil governments of all sizes to stop hurting people. The first priority is those who are exporting death. You can see the U.S.A. government is also removing support for repressive "friendly" regimes such as Saudi Arabia. The U.S.A. is also giving proper consideration to the authority of a U.N. which is dominated by governments which are not democracies.

Yet you're against the leader who is stopping the hypocrisy, and support someone who is making a profession of it.
John Kerry thinks it is a good thing to

• claim he voted for and against something,
• to state Saddam was a danger and was not a danger,
• who lies about Vietnam and his behavior
  • advertises that his being a Vietnam veteran is important
  • led Vietnam Veterans Against The War
  • used unconfirmed statements from VVAW's Winter Soldier Investigation in testimony to Congress...and these atrocity stories were from people who were never Vietnam combat veterans
  • lied that he was only an observer at Winter Soldier
  • said on "Meet the Press" that he committed atrocities
  • did not see atrocities and not in battle described on his web site
  • lied that he was not at a VVAW meeting in Kansas City
• and who can't even stop himself from saying
  • he doesn't own an SUV (New Hampshire),
  • does own an SUV (Michigan),
  • doesn't own an SUV (Earth Day - the family owns it),
  • and does own an SUV (say, does the family Gulfstream jet aircraft count?),
  • and family has more SUVs

Now, how are you going to "make sure" someone like that is going to do any specific thing which you approve of? Be consistent, you say.

What rubbish you speak. Election counting is and always has been simple.

Then why did so many states have problems with recounts during the last election? Not just Florida, but Oregon and New Mexico too? And how would steel boxes deal with hanging/pregnant chads?

No, election counting on that scale is not simple. As with anything done by humans, do it enough times and there will be errors.

In fact, it's so hard that I daresay that giving all the votes to the winner irregardless of the actual count is probably not mathematically valid. Perhaps there should be a margin of error (0.5% maybe) in vote counting. If the difference between the top candidates falls within that margin of error, the electoral votes for that state should be split between those top candidates (in some way - lots of states have exactly 3 electoral votes).

This probably uses existing R & D from voice identification technology they developed for the US govt. For instance, Pablo Escobar was captured after he made a phone call. He didn't call a traced number or from a traced number. His voice simply popped up on the phone lines. Bam! They identified his voice and captured him. And that was more than 10 years ago. Obviously, this is an example of how this technology has improved.

So the US to refused to agree to UN laws that violate our own constitution, whereas the UN has been caught blatantly violating the firearms laws of the United States within US territory.

Since he knows both about energy and the Internet