Slashdot Mirror
Extradition of Warez Suspect Blocked
An anonymous reader writes "Following up on an earlier Slashdot story, the extradition of alleged DrinkorDie leader Hew Raymond Griffiths has been denied. The judge in the case ruled that Griffiths, an Australian who had never set foot in the United States, had committed the alleged actions in Australia and had never fled from an extradition country. Therefore, the US hadn't made its case. Griffiths' attorney points out that he should have faced trial in Australia if anywhere, but .au authorities never charged him, which upset the DOJ and led to the extradition attempt. More info can also be found. The US (represented by Australian prosecutors) have fifteen days to appeal. One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach."
Getting the criminals OUT of Aussie...
:)
Damn it we tried very hard to get them all in there
Kingdom of Loathing (www.kingdomofloathing.com) Addicted is me
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach. Invade it? Ofcourse only if said country sits on shitloads of oil.
I'm not a fan of piracy, but if Australia felt like going easy on him, that's his concern. he never broke a law in the united states. is someone going to arrest me for a law I broke in Ukraine?
this could have set a dangerous precedent. considering how foreigners rights can be trampled due to the PATRIOT act, I'm glad we can't add unlawful and/or unwilling extradition to the list of powers we hold over non-citizens.
There was a story on /. just recently where the USA was attempting to add DMCA-like clauses in order for a trade agreement to go ahead... Don't get me wrong here - there's nothing wrong with a country trying to get as much as it can from any international deal, it's just that I loath the DMCA and its kin...
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Or they'll give you the boot
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
the decision is a strong message to the United States Department of Justice that it will not be allowed to hijack the laws of a sovereign nation merely because it is dissatisfied with said country's laws
Here here! Even if our laws do need adjusting, I'd hate to think that American laws applied applied on my home turf - or any other countries for that matter.
Still, piracy is bad, and it hurts my pocket, so I hope that he can be prosecuted in Australia still.
> One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach
News flash - Australia is NOT part of the US. It is a foreign nation!
Steve.
... but finally my country shows some spine. He should be prosecuted in Australia, under Australian law. If the department of public prosecutions has seen fit not to charge him, then it either means that a) they don't think there's a case, or b) they're out chasing murderers like they should be.
No offence intended to my American colleagues, but please respect everyone else's borders!
-- Your mother uses Emacs.
I remember hearing that during the 1980's, Iran's government officially tried to extradite Madonna and Michael Jackson so that they could be put to death on obscenity charges.
Google is not proving helpful in finding any references to this at the moment...
-- My Weblog.
> One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
They will react by making an appeal by the means of court. What poster of this article is expecting them to do ? Cover-bomb Australia or what ?
- Arwen, I'm your father, Agent Smith.
- Well, you're just Smith, but my father is Aerosmith!
The US wouldn't accept it.
The U.S. steadfastly refuses to play by its own rules, much less anyone else's.woof.
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
Then "one" hasn't read enough on the subject.
When asked about possibly extraditing Neo Nazi webmasters to Germany where it's illegal to do things like...Deny the Holocaust or glorify Hitler; John Russell, a U.S. justice department spokesman said "In order to have extradition, you have to have dual criminality in both countries, and this doesn't meet that standard,"
Google for "Fred Leuchter german extradition" and you'll get a few links.
The US Government wouldn't do it, so how can they expect Australia to?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
The current U.S. administration would stamp his forehead labeling him a "TERRORIST HACKER" and send him away--as long as the country is one of them there countries "in the civilized world."
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
So is Australia not considered a "foreign nation" in the US then ? I'd always assumed they actually had they're own goverment...
Gentlemen, start your penguins
Local authorities failed to deal with the problem, which is bad. But the extradition attempt are a perfect example of they way to go if America wants everyone to hate them. The big bully strikes again.
Personally if I lived there and he were shipped to the US, US would lose another star in my book as well as my local goverment for kissing their ass.
I don't hate America, but when they try to do the "hey look, we are the greatest country in the world, everybody follow us" stunt, I'd like to be able to shut them up.
Guess what, I think that MY country is the greatest in the world, but you can come in as number two.
As a joke, on Wikipedia, I made 51st state a redirect to Canada. Minutes later, I got some pretty angry messages - until the others realized I wasn't being serious. In the end, we turned '51st state' into a legitimate article (probably the only one on the subject).
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
``One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.''
I find it scary enough what the US has done in cases like this one:
If it's just one criminal, just anger. If it happens more often, economic sanctions or cutting of diplomatic ties. If the criminal has been labeled a terrorist (hmm, could this dude be a cyberterrorist?), war.
That's the reaction against the country itself. As to the alledged criminal, they could invite them to the US and arrest them there. Or they could send some intelligence agents to kidnap them.
I believe these things have happened in the past. Sklyarov was invited to the US and arrested. Afghanistan didn't (refused or couldn't) deliver Bin Laden and was conquered. As for kidnapping, I seem to recall some incident in Africa...was it Kenia? I don't know, but I think there have been cases.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
To answer your question: One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
In July 1998 in Rome, 120 Member States of the United Nations adopted a treaty to establish - for the first time in the history of the world - a permanent international criminal court. [source UN].
And this is what the US had to say about it: "This is to inform you, in connection with the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court adopted on July 17, 1998, that the United States does not intend to become a party to the treaty. Accordingly, the United States has no legal obligations arising from its signature on December 31, 2000. The United States requests that its intention not to become a party, as expressed in this letter, be reflected in the depositary's status lists relating to this treaty."[source UN]
Thus the US has no intention of ever handing over any of its citizens to even an internationa court. However, the US department of justice (ha ha) has the audacity to try to extradite an Australian national under extra vires conditions.
The US thinks it is the world policeman. But it is not willing to police itself. I am glad Australia finally stood up to the global bully. I hope Australians vote Howard out at the next elections and follow the example set by the brave people of Spain.
Moderate this comment
Negative: Offtopic Flamebait Troll Redundant
Positive: Insightful Interesting Informative Funny
Nothing to see here
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried to invade it because it
stockpiles weapons of mass destruction.
What the US would do in a reverse case? Attack the Court in The Hague, and pick up the poor man, of course... even if the crimes were war crimes, not warez crimes. It's a Law, even.
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
Try doing some minor research the US and other countries do it all the time, but I guess it more fun to be anti-american without the knowledge.
Try looking at some like this. Or this or this
The fact is the US extridites people to other countries all the times, denies extradition attempts and the same happens to it.
It's late... it's Friday... I'm still at work
My apologies for an such an awful abuse of the English language. Possibly the first for Slashdot I suspect.
Well, I think most of them are adults who already know how to make their own bed and food. What's the point in aggravating them with dumb duties like that?
On the other hand, making them produce something is not a good alternative either. First of all, they'll get access to potentially lethal tools like in the recent breakout here in Finland (prisoners killed a couple of guards with workshop tools and escaped). Secondly, what kind of quality can you expect from forced labour?
Reminds me of the Helms-Burton Act where non-US citizens (like European or Canadian company CEO's) can be charged in the US for trading with Cuba.
This is clearly a plot by terrorists to undermine the western IT industry.
We, the USA, must vigorously defend ourselves against this outrageous act of terrorism by sending our troops over to liberate the good people of Australia currently being held hostage by these cyber terrorists who are allegedly tied to the radical Al Quesa Dia sect of Muslims known for promising 72 tacos in heaven to their starving martyrs.
What makes these terrorist particularly dangerous is that the good people of Australia don't yet realize they are being held hostage. But fear not, we will establish a truly fair and balanced news media led by Fox News to help educate their population.
And in the unlikely event that we damage critical infrastructure, our highly experienced nation-building corporations such as Halliburton will send the most expensive engineers over to help rebuild the country--the cost which our patriotic and God-fearing middle class is more than happy to bear for the sake of freedom.
The bloody Aussie government didn't immediately assume the position in negotiations with the US. Is Howard growing scrotum? Backing off from consistent kissing of Bush's posterior area? Enquiring minds want to know.
ehintz
We must refuse to allow our soldiers, citizens, and Government officials to be exposed to trial by the United States and deny their court's self-declared right to investigate, prosecute, convict, and punish Australian citizens for supposed crimes that weren't even committed on American soil.
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
...no trips to Disneyland for him then!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
In other news, US President George W. Bush announces that Australia is now a part of the Axis of Evil. "We would not tolerate nations harboring these terrorist pirates. We would like to send our forces to help liberate Australia of these terrorist pirates, especially that they're harboring these WMDs (Warez of Mass Destruction)!"
So, to safely trade W4R3Z, all us Americans need is a proxy server in Australia?
Hey, it's not about quality; it's about making them work for their daily bread and water -- which, by the way, is what they should be fed. Today, they get better food than children going to school.
ERROR, DOES NOT COMPUTE!
a.k.a 'The Hague Invasion Act'
Net sa best, mar it koe minder
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How the fuck is John Howard (Australian Prime Minister) getting any credit for this? This was a court decision ... from a judge. Please don't give any credit to Mr Coward, we all know he would have bent over to the US in a hearbeat. Sheesh.
Some US pilots hyped up on amphetamines bombed a Canadian army unit. I'm not sure what happened to them but they werent sent to trial in Canada.
Napalm.
i have to say, i applaud australia
on other issues, i might have a problem
but clearly on this one the us is being hypocritical in its application of laws
additionally, i don't believe us laws about intellectual property make sense
the us is going in a direction of intellectual property law making that stifles innovation and calls cultural property corporate property
the lawless, borderless nature of the internet is making it's mark, and it is only a matter of time before states with their heads up their asses about intellectual property (the us) and states with their heads up their asses about political dissent (iran, china) have a day of reckoning
how they react will either put their citizens in more decades of darkness, or open their eyes to some undeniable truths in an internet world, a pandora's box which cannot be closed
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It's very clear that in international conventions about extraditions, countries are allowed to deny any extradition request for its own nationals. Actually, I don't know any country who does !
...
eg:
European Convention on Extradition
Paris, 13.XII.1957
Article 6 - Extradition of nationals
A Contracting Party shall have the right to refuse extradition of its nationals.
Each Contracting Party may, by a declaration made at the time of signature or of deposit of its instrument of ratification or accession, define as far as it is concerned the term "nationals" within the meaning of this Convention.
Nationality shall be determined as at the time of the decision concerning extradition. If, however, the person claimed is first recognised as a national of the requested Party during the period between the time of the decision and the time contemplated for the surrender, the requested Party may avail itself of the provision contained in sub-paragraph a of this article.
If the requested Party does not extradite its national, it shall at the request of the requesting Party submit the case to its competent authorities in order that proceedings may be taken if they are considered appropriate. For this purpose, the files, information and exhibits relating to the offence shall be transmitted without charge by the means provided for in Article 12, paragraph 1. The requesting Party shall be informed of the result of its request.
January 13, 2005 Bagdad, Iraq: It its first official act, the newly elected government of Iraq appealed to President Kerry for the immediate extradition of former president George W. Bush to be tried for crimes against humanity. Bush could face death by stoning if convicted.
The new Iraqi goverment assumed power only 3 days ago after the untimely collapse of the US backed Coalition Provisional Authority.
You will be branded a Rogue State(tm), part of The Axis Of Evil(tm), Your President/Prime Minister/Supreme Commander/Russian Overlord will be declared an Evildoer(tm), all your money will be taken, you will be held responsible for a terrorist attack in the form of an executive pretzel swallowing incident, and thus, after your nation has been drained from all resources, brainpower and any other useful assets, it will get the shit bombed out of it. When that is done your country will be placed on the WTO/WIPO shitlist, so your country won't have enough money to recover. Haliburton (owned by the vice prez of the country that wanted you extradited in the first place) will offer to rebuild your infrastructure he so thoughtfully bombed a month before, at outrageous cost, and then Monsalto will come and force GM crops down your populations throats at a high price (subscriptions available, terms and conditions apply), to be paid yearly.
Of course, being a good citizen of the Western World(tm) I merely jest, and at no time have thought any Really Unpatriotic Thoughts.... hang on, what are those black heli [no carrier]
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
Fucking asswipes made a deal with UK to allow them to extradite pretty much anyone they want without even going through a judge here! I don't know which government i hate more, the US for being such assholes, or my own government following them like a little puppy. Im not even going to start about camp X-ray.
extract from statewatch
On 31 March, David Blunkett, UK Home Secretary, signed an Extradition Treaty on behalf of the UK with his United States counterpart, Attorney General Tom Ashcroft, ostensibly bringing the US into line with procedures between European countries. The UK parliament was not consulted at all and the text was not public available until the end of May. The only justification given for the delay was "administrative reasons", though these did not hold-up scrutiny by the US senate, which began almost immediately.
The UK-US Treaty has three main effects:
- (1) it removes the requirement on the US to provide prima facie evidence when requesting the extradition of people from the UK but maintains the requirement on the UK to satisfy the "probable cause" requirement in the US when seeking the extradition of US nationals;
- (2) it removes or restricts key protections currently open to suspects and defendants;
- (3) it implements the EU-US Treaty on extradition, signed in Washington on 25 June 2003, but far exceeds the provisions in this agreement.
Ofcourse it works the otherway around but i dont think we would have a chance in hell of extraditing an American - the treaty is very unfairly balanced.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
Not in the least. The US vehemently opposed the International Crime Court, and when it became clear that the court was becoming reality, the US fought to have citizens of the United States immune to prosecution there.
So one need not wonder at all, a quick peek behind the shoulder reveals how the US government reacts to matters such as these when applied to them.
"One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach."
Well, there is a "the Hague invasion act", so WDYT?
2) The US DOJ decided that he must therefore be extradited for prosecution in the US.
This does not exclude that if a US citizen/company feels they have been nobbled by an australian they can none the less pursue thier case in the Australian courts and seek damages. Obviously they canot seek criminal charges on the basis of US laws.
Do US citizens understand what Democracy actually means? As far as I can see many US citizens seem to think that Democracy means you agree with them.
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
Isn't Disneyland US territory, in the same way embassy grounds are?
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
Probably in exactly the same way, extradition agreeements are a two way thing. Recently the French successfully extradited a child rapist and murderer from the US. Of course he had committed his crime in France.
I'm amazed that the US tried this (I find it hard to imagine any court US or otherwise agreeing to such an extradition), but that doesn't make them bad guys for trying - just stupid.
This is awesome... It's about time someone gets a head on their shoulders. When the US can prosecute foreign nationals for doing something in a foreign country, that's the end of it... Say someone spits on the sidewalk in New Delhi? Well, it seems the US should have that person extradited to the US because it's against the law to spit on the sidewalk in the US.
It is ridiculous for the US to think that it can extend its laws beyond its sovreign boundaries and apply them in OTHER sovreign states, to people who are neither IN the US or citizens thereof. It is clearly against just about every international law and treaty on the books (with a few notable exceptions, *cough* UK *cough*).
When in Rome... right? I give the US about 10 years before the rest of the world gets sick of our shit and blows us off the face of the Earth with a massive trade war.. our economy is our most vulnerable weakness...
Attorney Humlen, lecturer in international law at the university of Oslo, has a lot of strange, sometimes funny anecdotes about international events. As I recall, he recounted the nicaragua harbor-mining incident more or less like this:
Nicaragua's head of state said something unflattering about Reagan in a public speech. Reagan, perhaps as a result of the onset of senile dementia, thought that mining the harbors of Nicaragua was a reasonable response.
This of course provoked incredulous responses from the rest of the world, and the court in question did rule the action illegal. However, since US support for the court was essential to its success, they made the penalty as light as they possibly could: just pay for the cleanup, please.
Unfortunately, that wasn't light enough for the US government, and they have since boycotted the international court in question.
(errors in this anecdote are probably due to me, not attorney Humlen)
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Indeed. Imagine a group of Iraqi citizens trying to bring Wolfowitz, Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheyne to justice under Iraqi law. And yes I realise the US is trying to sweep Iraqi law under the carpet in favour of US law. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Then cake or death? -EDDiEiZZARD
I know of a hotel owner (owner, resort and country shall remain unnamed) with a reputation of being a prankster, that used to ask his American guests when leaving whether they had a stamp of the resort in their passports. Most of his guests answered with the innocent/naive "No, we didn't get one when we passed customs." Whereupon he kindly offered and actually succeeded in providing one. After a couple of months he received an official letter from the US embassy where he was asked to stop his actions otherwise they'd send in the US navy. What better statement of your whit would you like?
Please I'd like to be modded down as insulting to the US of A.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Too bad for you Austrialians. I really always liked you. But now that the US are going to invade you and liberate you from this government that denied them jurisdiction in your .. errr .. their country ... ;-)
... *fingers cross*)
(I really hope this is only a joke
RedShirt
Microsft spel chekar vor sail, worgs grate !!!
300 lbs is pretty light for a gorilla I think...
Kilos maybe?
If another country tried this on the US, the Bush would get pissed and sik the Condo-leeza Ricecake on them. I'd rather be locked in a room of rabid pit bulls than have to face the Chief Dominatrix of the U.S.A!
Wrong. Punishing and humiliating people who've already fallen on hard times will only breed more rage and discontent that explodes when they're eventually released.
It's wrong to think prison as a place of punishment - it should be a place of rehabilitation.
failing to .convince those foreigners that won flavor of FUDge is gooed for everybodIE, those execrabilious stock markup FraUDs are now faced with having to package additionull flavors of the virotically infactdead payper liesense bugwear?
yikes almighty. does the pretending (that the phonIE corepirate nazis are still in power) never end? lookout bullow.
consult with/trust in yOUR creators.... you node the kode already?
I know a Canadian or two who refer to the USA as "South British Columbia".
Yes...unfortuantely, the new "trade" deal between the US and Australia could mean changes to our laws; including copyright.
Not that any changes would relate to this scenario per se, but...Why the F**K should we let America even contemplate forcing us into changing our laws.
Piracy *IS* bad, but i don't think it hurts your pocket much, well music piracy doesn't seem to.
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
Really? Isn't it trivially predictable how the US would have reacted?
For all intents and purposes, the US behaves like the alpha male in a pack - namely as if the rules would not apply to them, only to others.
Incidently, that is exactly what is usually meant when we say someone is arrogant.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
to be mentioned in an actual invasion act
IIRC there's a law in the United States which they used to capture drug kings in the South America (late 90's?). The law says that US authorities have a right to arrest persons of other nationalities outside US. I wonder if they'll try that out now.
It was widely discussed in Finland if US authorites could arrest Finnish person in Finland. Officials considered that it would count as a military action.
And I wonder what people in US would think if Germany would start arresting people in US for selling swastika flags to Germany...
?SYNTAX ERROR
Andy: Hear ye, hear ye. This session will now come to order. With the cooperation of the US Department of State, we have present today one Bart Simpson.
[everyone mutters amongst themselves]
I believe he has something to say. Bart?
Bart: [goes to microphone, scratches, clears throat several times]
I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what I did to your country.
[everyone applauds]
Andy: [jovial] Well, you're free to go, Bart...right after your additional punishment.
Homer: Punishment?
Andy: Well, a mere apology would be a bit empty, eh? Let the booting begin.
Homer: Booting?
Andy: Aw, it's just a little kick in the bum. [a man with a gigantic boot walks in]
Bart: Y'uh oh.
...before Australia is found to be part of the Axis of Evil, and America liberates it?
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
We've argued them down to... a booting.
As much as you Americans would like to believe, Australia is still a 'foreign' country...
> Cue witty retorts about globalisation and corporate takeovers
-Nano.
Why? Because the US (and Australia) signed a UNITED NATIONS TREATY that said they would.
General Link
The Treaty (PDF)
What he was nailed for was the disappearance of a videotape filmed by his navigator.
In this case, there would most definitely have been a show trial in Italy, although the appeals would probably have eventually, quietly resulted in acquittal. Probably. However, under NATO rules, the U.S. already had jurisdiction by treaty.
'cause sure as fuck, brown-nose, deputy-john isn't doing it.
Bring back hicks.
_
\\/ are accustomed' - First Lensman
Just remember that the first immigration wave in America were persecuted in their own Old Europe => Non-papists in France, papists in the UK, people with a "knack" considered as withcraft everywhere, people that lost everything due to war, Dutch that tried to escape their crowded and quite intolerant society, and then of courses, slaves brought out from Africa, and so on...
...etc, ad nauseatum.
So from my point of view, Americans and Aussies are quite equal at their beginning : derelicts, outcasts and unwanted.
The only difference is that on the whole, at least until recently, the Aussies were considered as less bastards and less imperialists than the US.
Also, the American problem is that the very good ideas in the constitution have been perverted by corporations and protestant integrists...They made the money from the slave triangle (Silk, ores, ware, exchanged for slaves, exchanged for money, that bought local wares, that got transformed into
At lease the Aussies had the "excuse" of being considered as BAD ppl (extraded UK Criminals, and anybody that was making a fuss against the local gov) so anything they did was an improvement.
Americans should have done better, seeing their "nobler origins" of persecuted.
On the whole, I still would prefer Canada to the US, and Australia to the US.
Alas, the richest is also the meanest...
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
With a name like Hew Raymond Griffiths, this bloke is welsh, so he can also hunker down in a remote village out on the Lleyn until all this blows over. The locals would never reveal him to the Saesneg (saxons) whatever the law says.
I stole this
"Well, if it wasn't for George Washington, you'd be speaking English"
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach."
Names Pinochet and Kissinger ring a bell?
What is the point of this story and 90% of the comments in it? As far as I can ascertain, lazy as I am, the story is something like this:
- Australian guy breaks US law.
- US asks Australia for extradition.
- Australia tries the case in a court like any normal country would do.
- Court says no.
The whole point of the court system is to decide these things. So what if the US made a somewhat unreasonable request? They said no! It's not like they said, "Give him to us or we'll bomb your country."
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
>One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach."
They would find WMD in their country...
Attorney Humlen, lecturer in international law at the university of Oslo, has a lot of strange, sometimes funny anecdotes about international events. As I recall, he recounted the nicaragua harbor-mining incident more or less like this: Nicaragua's head of state said something unflattering about Reagan in a public speech. Reagan, perhaps as a result of the onset of senile dementia, thought that mining the harbors of Nicaragua was a reasonable response. This of course provoked incredulous responses from the rest of the world, and the court in question did rule the action illegal. However, since US support for the court was essential to its success, they made the penalty as light as they possibly could: just pay for the cleanup, please.
The sad part is you probably actually believe this. And you got enough Slashbots to mod you "informative".
Nicaragua was a communist puppet state. Nicaragua's "head of state" was a brutal communist dictator. And contrary to little slashdot kiddie beliefs, communism is not just an epithet.
So "across the ditch" would be Australian for a "frigging huge expanse of water?"
Are you so desperate for slashdot karma points that you'd actually post an anti-US message for them?
I think it's cute that you added the bit about IP laws as well, just in case you didn't get enough points from simply being an anti-American American on an anti-American online message board.
Next time, troll harder!
I wish we could extradite Bush for war crimes in return, and corrupting our lapdog primeminister.
Lets see? 5 to 10 years for warez. Bush should quallify for the death penalty.
Bush! The new Hitler?
Red eye's at night, Hackers delight. Red eye's in the morning, Professors Warning.
and i say what i think
next time, just fuck off before you post, sycophant
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
There's no other country that comes close to our Air, land, and sea superiority.
And then we'd just bomb the shit out of their land. Simple as that.
Slashdot Moderation: From positive to terrible in 2 "insightful" posts.
wasn't it agreed between the parties to not use 9/11 as a political springboard during re-election?
Source, please.
... To vote for someone better!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
In Australia the official job name of the postman is actually 'postie'.
my password really is 'stinkypants'
It's a joke for the humor impaired.
Anyone want to start a pool for how long before Hew ends up in U.S. custody?
/.) how stupid he really is and gets arrested at LAX within a year.
:-)
This guy is stupid enough to blatantly offer warez for years, so he will probably be stupid enough to accept a "free" offer to speak at a DefCon convention next year, or be interviewed for a perfect job. I'm betting he shows the world (or just
It goes further than this, though. He'll have to stay out of any country where he might be extradited without a hearing, such as the UK, the Philippines, Japan, Canada or Mexico. He'll have to avoid all long distance air travel where his plane might have to divert to a country with a looser extradition agreement with the U.S., avoid flights with stopovers or even refeuling stops in U.S. friendly countries.
Then again, with the Aussie PM currently doing a goatse and bending over for a right reaming of Australian sovreignity with U.S. trade and military control, it could just be a matter of time before Hew can be extradited without another hearing.
Given that he is only free for as long as he never sets foot outside of NSW, its kind of a prison sentence right there
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
China and Taiwan are in the news again -- Taiwan seems to be pushing for a democracy in their country, and China has gone on record as saying they will never let that happen. And US news agencies have been saying that if China invades Taiwan, that might draw the US into the conflict, as it supports the Taiwanese democracy.
Now here's the question -- why doesn't China have the "right" to invade Taiwan? After all, China perceives Taiwan's democratic agenda as a threat to its national interests and security. After all, the US invaded Iraq after it perceived its regime's perceived agenda -- as a potential supplier of WMDs to hostile nations -- to threaten the USA's security and interests.
I'm not trying to troll, but it does seem rather hypocritcal of the US.... doesn't it? USA claims to support democracies around the world, and will defend the existing institutions with its military....... and China claims to support communist nations around the world, and will take the same hard-line tack. Why not let China do its will?
It's wrong to think prison as a place of punishment - it should be a place of rehabilitation.
Seen on a anti-guncrime billboard: [if you get caught with a gun] '...Five Years Hard Federal Time!'
Get caught counterfeiting US money and they throw the book at you? 'Twenty Years Hard Federal Time!'
In this topsy-turvy capitalist society that is the USA, guncrime, which can be an has been proven fatal, is treated less harshly by the Federal government than counterfeiting which is, essentially, a nonfatal form of fraud.
It is this misplaced set of priorites along with 'zero tolerance' and 'three strikes' that has led to an explosion in the levels of prison incarceration here in the USA. It is a known fact that more people are in jail in the USA as a whole than anywhere else in the world.
Because of the large influx of prisoners to the penal system and penal staffing stretched to the limits, this has led prisons to be little more than human warehouses where society dumps their undesireables for the duration of their sentence. Treated as such, isn't it any wonder that there is an alarming rate of recidivism in the USA penal system?
Since there is little or no attempt at real rehabilitation, prisons become little more than crime dens where the incarcerated learn to become better criminals upon their release.
For the ones who do their time and are released, who decide never again to go back to prison, are faced with wholesale ostracization by society as a whole.
Case in point: Job applications that ask: 'Are you a convicted felon?'
Past experience does not predict future performance--but alas, is a strong indicator of it.
If 'crime doesn't pay', why are people who leave the penal system, 'having paid their debt to society in full', still being treated like criminals?
Until there is a radical, fundamental shift in the operation of the US penal system toward real, genuine, lasting rehabilitation of the prisoners in its care, it will continue to be 'just business as usual'.
That's milko, not milkie ;)
Advanced users are users too!
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
France
Just ask Roman Polanski, who fled there to avoid statutory rape charges.
I'll explain further: If he was running a Nazi website, he has the right to do that here, and it's up to German citizens to not view (or at least not acknowledge) such content. He's "speaking" from America. Although I am no supporter of the Nazis, he does have the legal right to do this. If the man was using his website (or other means) to sell Nazi memorabilia inside Germany, perhaps then he could be extradited, but only if Germany requested it and the U.S. reviewed it in court and found it acceptable, just like the U.S. is doing in Australia.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
This could be just an urban legend but I think I got it from better sources than that.
In the early days of the US, they were very copy friendly with respect to their publishers and British copyright holders had this idea that this was wrong.
The US had different copyright laws and t hat was that.
If this is a problem for one country or the other, then there need to be negotiations to bring the laws into line with each other.
I have not looked at the details of this case, but if this principle applies to it, then so be it.
The principle:
A citizen on one country doing something in that country that is not a crime in that country should not be able to be be charged with a crime in another country for that specific act.
Other than feeling safe because "might makes right," just think about how dangerous not having this principle would be.
Illegal to drink after 9 pm in country A. Authorities in country A see a new year's broadcast from country B where famous people are drinking at midnight. Country A asks for said people to be extradited so they can be charged with the crime of drinking after 9pm.
Or, said people go to country A for vacation and get arrested at the airport and charged with the crime of drinking after 9pm. When they rightfully ask when they are supposed to have commited this crime, the authorities show them video tape proof of their crimes.
I know this is a stupid example, but it may help you think about the principles involved.
Now, there may be some reasons for exceptions. If so, what are the principles involved?
A Nony Mouse
I am an American citizen. I am appalled that "my government" feels that they can do whatever they want to whomever, and whenever.
"He never set foot on US soil.... He never attempted to flee an extradition country."
Leave this guy alone, I mean come on. If his country is not after him, then what makes you guys in Washington feel that it's your responsability to go after him?
It's time for this country to stop policing the world.
Obviously the world doesn't want the US medelling in their affairs, so WASHINGTON BUTT THE HELL OUT.
If you guys think he did something, and needs to be prosecuted then wait till it's on US soil when you have jurisdiction.
As for him pirating warez, well if i wrote software I wouldn't want anyone taking my hard earned money.
I can't help but feel this has something to do with Micro$oft, and some politician getting his campaign pockets lined by them.
I can see the headlines, "Big brother crushes the little guy".
Not to mention that this country broke away from England to get away from tyrrany.
It seems ironic that we are now the tyrant!
SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Lets see how they handle this case.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The US have a history of getting what they want, even if that means abducting the person in question behind the other nation authorities's back. I know what I am talking about. (No, it wasn't me, but one of my clients)
-- The Online Photo Editor - http://www.phixr.com
that the unnamed country was in fact Switzerland.
Because as we all know, the ends justify the means, right?
Pathetic...
..appear to have had their humour detection organ removed.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Keep it up! I like the site!
I can't be the first person to draw a parallel between this situation and when Bart got in trouble with the Australian government: http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F13.html
Give 'im the boot!
All that has to be done is make a phone call to the WTO and complain.
Remember all members must submit to a 'lowest common denominator', and give up their own independent sovereignty.
Since this technically effects 'international commercial trade' it would fall under their jurisdiction.
Though personally, I say Go Australia for standing up for what is right. Laws are different in different countries, that's just the way it goes.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I don't like Bush. But not being allowed to mention Sept.11th is stupid. It happened on his watch. He has a right to mention what he has done about it just as the dems have a right to be critical of his handling of it. Sept 11th HAS to be in the fore front of any advertising or it would be impossible to discusses Bush's record be it for or against. Bush's use of 9-11 images was a lot more tasteful and respectful then calling him a Nazi as some of moveon.org submitted ads did. I know many Jews that were very offended by that.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
what a weird predilection
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
>years before the rest of the world gets sick of
>our shit and blows us off the face of the Earth
>with a massive trade war.. our economy is our
most vulnerable weakness...
The economy isn't America's only weakness. When it really comes down to it, the only real form of military superiority that the US has over *the rest of the planet* is nuclear...the army can only be in so many countries at once, and the population of the rest of the world is greater than the population of the army by a ratio of probably several hundred million to one. As Machiavelli repeatedly says in The Prince, the only thing a ruling power really needs to fear more than anything else is becoming widely hated...because once that happens, conspiracies, insurrections, and unrest start springing up in all directions. Americans need to realise more than anything else that their current President is leading them towards both national and international ruin, because the level of hatred that will eventually (and indeed already is, to a degree) be felt and expressed towards the country will reach a level such that not only will trade become increasingly difficult, but the military will also be overtaxed and unable to cope.
It would grieve me enormously to see such a scenario take place, as I have known many Americans online and have percieved most of them to be of as much value as other individuals from anywhere else in the world.
The most important thing is for the core minority of Americans who see themselves as superior to the rest of the planet to change this view, because it is quite simply incorrect. They do not have any greater level of intrinsic value than anyone else. America is not an entity apart...it is part of the planet the same as any other country, as are it's people...and it needs to learn to see itself as the rest of the planet's equal, rather than it's superior. If that can be done, peace both internationally and domestically will be achievable.
We have a treaty with Australia on intellectual property.
It's called the Berne Convention.
So at this point whatever it is one nation does when another nation fails to uphold the Berne Convention should, presumably, kick in.
But, clearly, the Bush administration is still trying to find "the real killers", so they don't have time to get jiggy with Australia.
Stay tuned for further developments.
Absolutely untrue. I point you to the press release from the Hungarian Embassy:
In approving the request of the United States and Great Britain to use Hungarian airspace, the Government has taken into consideration the fact that the majority of EU and NATO member states are supporting the steps taken by the governments of the Unites States, Great Britain and Spain to enforce UN resolutions regarding Iraq. Not even France and Germany, who have voiced concerns regarding the use of military force against Iraq, are hindering the Allies from enforcing UN resolutions.
The Government therefore acknowledges that the relevant authorities, acting on the basis of a standing parliamentary authorization, have allowed the use of Hungarian airspace and designated airfields with a view to enforcing UN resolutions. At the same time, Hungary, in accordance with the position of the European Council, regards the use of force only as a last resort.
Austria forbid the use of its airspace too, and U.S. didn't stop to ignore it until Austria said it would shot down the next american airplane entering its airspace.
That's almost laughable. Austria's Air Force is composed of 50-year-old Saab Dragon fighter jets with no radar or computers. They might be able to shoot down an airliner, but that's about it. In fact, as soon as Austria closed its airspace to US military overflights, the US just few around Austria. Austria isn't exactly a big roadblock on the way to Iraq.
If you go abroad and do something wrong, you shall be subject to the local laws. If you know the laws will turn out bad for you, don't go there. This applies to everyone. Even if they are U.S. citizens.
Local laws apply, even to US citizens. That was not the point of the International Court. All that the US will do for its citizens being prosecuted in a foreign judicial system is check on their treatment in custody and assist them in obtaining a lawyer...the same things that any country's consular staff would do.
Your complaint in this case seems to be in regard to military personnel who are accused of crimes in foreign countries. Their prosecution depends upon the status of forces agreement that those countries have negotiated with the US. They cover the rules for dealing with military personnel when they are on duty. In the case of rapes in Japan, you conveniently omitted the change in the SOFA that permits the Japanese government to prosecute the military personnel in those cases (and they have, with success). In the case of the Italian incident, the SOFA did not allow the local prosecutors to charge the pilot. Perhaps your complaint should be against those governments that do not negotiate SOFAs that allow for local prosecution of foreign military personnel.
-h-
IANAL, but I am pretty sure this is illegal (even in the US,
Well that's simple the US would say no then break the law,go against the UN, and would start a war over it.
Im so sick of listening to this crap, I dont come to slashdot to read about politics you wankers. I enjoy the YRO articles as much as the next guy, and ortho you make some great points but this is heading way off topic. Can we please get back on topic and discuss the wonderful world of warez and the outstanding Drink or Die people? How about someone share one of those heart warming stories about how they downloaded their first piece of pirated software, (3d studio max) learned the software and now is a professional animator working on feature films?
Mod points are like police officers, they are never around when I really need them.
Of course it is not a premeditated act ... but that is not the issue.
You know, a lot of people forget that we invaded Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people from a dictator. I heard all of these rumours that there were weapons of mass destruction; that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons and was an imminent threat to the free world. I mean, he had the tools necessary to conspire to obtain weapons of mass destruction - telephones! computers! even a postal system!
I mean, how good are those Iraqis, eh? When Colin Powell was circling satellite photos at the UN conference, saying "They're stockpiling X, Y, and Z here," I thought for sure we had those guys. Only an evil empire could eliminate 100% of all evidence of their WMD programs.
I, for one, am proud that we are "pre-emptively defending ourselves." I like that we are starting wars because we don't like certain governments, because they are "evil." The world was so lost when nations had rights under that silly notion of sovereignty. I can't wait until we invade African countries to rid them of dictators, and I'm sure it will happen, since we, as Americans, sincerely care about liberation, and not about oil.
Georgie would get mad... (Score:0, Flamebait)
by madchris (266878) on Friday March 26, @07:09AM (#8678228)
If another country tried this on the US, the Bush would get pissed and sik the Condo-leeza Ricecake on them.
I'd rather be locked in a room of rabid pit bulls than have to face the Chief Dominatrix of the U.S.A!
[Mod down again, please.]
If I remember right, the DOJ does not care what means were used to get defendents showing up in front of court steps.
It's going to happen. We all know it will. It's inevitable. Iraq was never designed to be a country that could peacefully rule itself. It has too many disparate factions trying to trample the other to be King of the Hill.
You've got the Kurds who want to independant, then you've got the Turks next door, who just want to kill all the Kurds, and then you've got all the religious sects within Iraq who hate each other's guts.
Iraq is going to erupt into a bloodbath in about 1 or 2 years from now. And it will be our fault.
The fact is, Iraq was stable under a dictator. Under anarchy, things will be much worse than before.
Also, what killed those Hundreds of thousands under Saddam could be more directly linked to the incredibly punishing sanctions the U.S. placed on Iraq. Those sanctions did nothing to Saddam and his ilk, but destroyed the citizenry and halted their societal progress.
Is it too late to send them over, or maybe at least Michael? How about if we pay the shipping?
"e-mail" or "email" - ? I wrote our company's style guide and have gotten rid of the dash in all our communications. I've seen conflicting opinions on this, is there a standard?
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
Charges should have been brought in Australia.
The problem with our morons at the DOJ is that
they think that only our justice should prevail
in the world.
This does not change the fact that the warez
sites are criminal.
The topic identification of this message is
ridiculous. This has nothing to do with rights
to free speech or civil rights. This is strictly
a criminal offense.
"Iraq is an immediate threat with its Weapons of Mass Destruction" - BushCo (paraphrase)
Now that is stuff that matters to the tinfoil hat crowded tent of America (and Iraq, and every other human institution) hating pussies. You scared loser, find some other trusting crowd to hijack with your apocalypse fantasies. Nothing echoes so emptily as the self-parody of you fake "patriots". Get another tune to ruin, and lay off our national anthem.
--
make install -not war
Yes you can have "Yankee Stubborness" and "Aussie Determination" No the country is not called "Aussie" but it may be that it is the "Aussie Lands" or some such.
Try to wrap your tiny little brain around this.
Christ only became our Lord after His death. As painful as it is to accept, His death was coluntary and necessary. He died an excruciating death for YOUR sins. You repay His ultimate gift with hatred. Have you forgotten His lessons already? Please do Christians around the world a favor, don't count yourself among them.
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
No I don't. We would undoubtedly bomb the living shit out of them, and take their oil and establish a fictitious democracy while we were at it.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
ya fucking hippies!!!
This might be a bit off topic, but here is what I have to say to all the asswipes who blame the United States for everything that has gone sour in the world. You can mod me down as "Flamebait", I do not really care, but before you do it, please read the rest of the post.
Lately, it seems that when shit his the fan, Americans are to blame. According to many stories that I have heard so far, this country is responsible for turning the planet into a big clusterfuck full of Gap outlets, Starbucks and low-quality enterntainment. Then we go out on world-wide safaris and kill innocent people. Shame on us!
Well, here is what I have to say: "Shut the fuck up and do something about it!" Do not like Coke and blue jeans? Guess what, nobody's forcing you to have them. If you think that our culture sucks because we tend to do what we like? Well, you are free to keep your own. You do not have to like what Americans like. You do not have to listen to our music, watch our movies and act like we do. If you want to learn something from us, please write down that it is okay to be different in the United States (but then again, think for yourself). And if we get into your face, make sure that you retaliate. I am dead serious about it. I can relate to that on a personal note.
See, when I was in middle school, I was skinny and not-so-athletic. Bigger guys liked to pick on me and one of them scheduled a "gladiator" fight where he was going to kick my ass in front of his friends and some girls which I happened to like. I did not have a choice; three of that guy's friends dragged me to the playground behind the school during a break where an audience was formed. Well, my friend was in for a treat; I knew that I had nothing to lose. I entered the playground and kicked him in his knees before he could say a word, when he lowered his head to check out the damage, I kicked him in the face. Then again, and again; I kept on doing it even whe he was on the ground; he would have done the same for me. I knocked out his tooth and made sure that he had enough blood to spit out until the end of the week. To tell you the truth, it felt fucking good. I was the only weak geek boy in my class who could stand up for himself and since that day nobody ever touched me. Some of his friends tried to threaten me, but the would not do it without him. And, trust me, he chose to leave me alone. Whe my mom asked me what I had learned at school that day, I told her that I had found out that the world was not fair, but I still could take an advantage through my own actions.
As an American citizen I am proud to see that Australia has enough balls to say "No!" to us. The other countries should do the same. Let's face it, we, Americans, will be better off that way because our tax money will not be spent on policing the rest of the world. Foreign countries and their people are fully capable to live on their own without Uncle Sam watching over their shoulders. I can only hope that more countries will follow Australia and do what is right, instead of what the U.S. wants them to do. Hopefully that will make our politicians think more. Afterall, they won't put every goddamn state on this planet on the "Axis of Evil." Also, please note that Australia was not the only country to do that. If my memory serves right, France has taken the same course of actions as well.
Finally, if you happen to be a non-U.S. resident and if you have an urge to blame the States for something, please take a look at your country. It is hard to agree with the Russians who are against the war in Iraq, while their own forces manage to bomb the living fuck out of Chechnya on a daily basis. The French are eager to bash us for our nuclear weapons; however, it is okay for them to test their nukes in the South Pacific.
> They went there, because they're in the military, and in the
> military you follow orders that your commander gives you.
Don't forget, recent efforts on the part of congress and the selective service to the contrary, there is still no draft in the US, nor has there been for thirty years or so.
Every single one of those people VOLUNTEERED to go barge into another country and murder brown people in the name of halliburton's and betchel's share prices.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
But I use the term "Papist" the same way Hemingway ueses the term "Nigger"...
At the time it was the "natural way" of saying "colored people"
I'm sorry I have offended you, but early americans were "Papists" (canadians and the some states) or protestants (Dutch emigrate, New England, that was to be the Eden that England couldn't achieve, etc...) or simply ppl that fleed Europe because they were persecuted in various ways...
America was once a great Dream, once of ultimate freedom and liberty.
It has failed in that context, being caught by the "Dollar God"...
Please feel free to disagree. I'm not that offensed by ppl that have an other point of view...
P.S. this not an anon posting... just remind my words sometime...
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
We would have tried him not let him off the hook.
A few years ago I bought a game. I went to install it and it asked me for the CD key. I looked on the jewel case and in the little box where the CD key was supposed to be printed there was nothing. I'm 99% sure this was a fully legal game. The manuals, discs, and box all looked fully authentic. I think they just had a printing error.
So I called up the game company's support line, and after an hour on hold, someone came online and I explained my problem. I asked if I could be sent a working CD key. Not quite. The only solution they were willing to accept was that I mail them my box, CD and jewel case. They would verify that the copy was legal and that it didn't include the CD key, and then they'd send it back. The estimated time for this process? 6 to 8 weeks. The one paying for the shipping? Me.
Returning the game wasn't an option, since I had already opened the shrinkwrap, so I was stuck.
Luckily, I was able to look online, find a crack, and play the game that night.
Lots of people have argued that publishers benefit from the 'warez' scene. It gets the game known, and if it's good enough, a lot of people will go out and buy it for the missing things -- online play, full movies, etc. I'd also argue that it lets them get away with otherwise fatal mistakes. When they use a copy protection scheme that's broken, people just turn to the online cracks.
It's the same kind of feeling a mother gets when her childern are attacked or threatened. Most of us took it personally that we had failed to stop the attacks. When the Bush administration made the conscious choice not to back down and to face the terrorists we were given an outlet for our anger and a chance to redeem ourselves. When the first group of Rangers went into Afghanistan on a night mission they left behind nothing but bodies and a photo of the wreckage of the twin towers. The message? We will not be intimidated and if they thought they could crush this nation through one cowardly act they were very mistaken.
War is an evil thing but unfortunately it is a necessity in our world. Of course in the perfect world there would be no need for a military or warfare or any of this but that only exists in academia or in some people's minds. Whatever hatred or anger you may have for the Bush administration please remember that we the professional soldiers of this nation would be doing the same thing for ANY President that asked it of us, no matter what we think of his politics or morals. Civilians have that choice - we do not.
"Trying is only the first step towards failure." - Homer
if they know what's good for them. Otherwise Mickey Mouse will be sending in the US Marines.
I guess the US liberating Iraq is actually a noble attempt to try and make up for the CIA's sponsorship of Saddam's rise to power in the 1960s....
The US didn't support Saddam's rise to power. That was the Soviets that armed and supplied Iraq when Saddam was killing his way to the top. If you're going to blame the US let's apportion the right amount of blame. The US's total contribution to Iraq's arsenal was less than 1% (in terms of total monetary value according othe Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). Saddam got into power on his own but we did use him when he was in power. We helped him when he was the enemy of our enemy (Iran) by providing satellite and surveillance intelligence but all financial and military aid stopped after he gassed the Kurds (German corps especially - they didn't stop till a couple months before the latest war and also sell to the N Coreans). France played the biggest role in Saddam's personal rise to power. It was Chirac who buddied up to Saddam well before the US got involved. Chirac even personally got the sale of nuclear reactors to Saddam approved. The US isn't the source of every evil in this world. England and France screwed-up the Middle East a whole hell of a lot more severely and longer than the US has even been involved in the region.
A rocket scientist would know better than to assume something as silly as that. You're flat out wrong about the US not extraditing one of its citizens to another country. Charles Phillip Smith was extradited to Germany for crimes he committed there. There tons of cases where the US has extradited it's citizens to countries whose legal systems don't offer nearly the amount of protection to defendants that US Constitution does but nobody ever hears about them. It's all very routine.
This Australian case actually went according to the laws (as it should have). The only novle thing is that US tried to establish a new precedent. It tried to extradite someone who caused harm to a domestic US company despite never having breached US jurisdiction (in reality or through the various legally fictional ways). Since the extradition treaty with Australia didn't specifically allow extradition for this type of action and since Australian law doesn't otherwise allow for extradition for something they don't even consider a crime, there was never any doubt as to how this case was be resolved legally. I would say that I'm suprised that the US Justice Dept tried to expand extradition this far but then I remember that this is the Bush administration. They probably want to use this to get other 'terrorists' e.g. anyone that disagrees with them. As Ari Fleischer said, "People need to watch what they say..."
One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach.
Well, the answer would be that they would extradite the person, even if he had broken no laws in the United States, and the only crime committed in his totalitarian home land was a "speech crime" that is a constitutionally protected God given right, according to the US Constitution.
You don't think so? Read here.
And how would they be unlawful??? I am curious? Were they asked to commit war crimes?
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
The UN can't declare war, thats not part of its mission. What it did was express approval for going to war, the cease fire wasn't signed by the UN, its was signed by countries that actually had troops there.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
Let's get the timeline right. 1441 was passed, declaring that Iraq was in material breech of previous resolutions and the 1991 cease fire agreement. They WERE given a 2nd chance to readmit inspectors and give full cooperation (much like Libya is not). They did not cooperate fully of course, so the US asked the UN to endorse the resumption of the war. The UN was unable to agree to said endorsement. But did the US require explict UN approval, or was it just politically more expeditent?
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
It was a nice idea, but it went sour from the very beginning. First, the Soviet Block used the influence of other communist countries to stick it to America every chance it got. Now, after the fall of the USSR, the UN has become nothing more than a place where other countries can take out their petty jealousies, not just on the US, but on rival countries. And as George Will has noted, the UN now fancies itself a kind of world government, going as far proposing a world tax. A tax? Ummm, how many of these people did I elect to their positions?
UN staffers regulary flaunt their immunity at NYPD officers, ignoring parking tickets and mocking/threatening them if they dare to intervene, even if they're clearly doing something illegal. Unless they're committing rape or murder and their goverment pulls their immunity, too bad so sad.
So go ahead and write me off as an arrogant American. I don't care, and frankly, despite the crap you see spewed here, most Americans don't care either. Most of us are tired of the UN and all it really represents (basically, world bureacracy on a scale the makes the US goverment look like a volunteer fire brigade, endless rule-by-committee, and some guy outside the US telling me what to do). Most Americans can see the differnece between liberating a country, like Iraq, and invading one for spoils. Despite the black-helicopter-paranoia that rules here, we didn't go to Iraq for oil. The UN knows this too. You'll just never get that from them.
I know this is going to get mod-bombed, but what the hell. Slashdot's view is not representative of most Americans. You can rail against that all you want, but it's true. If if America is a rogue for killing tyrants and terrorists while the UN endlessly debates (while declaring that Saddam's government was legitimate!), well, then I'd just as soon my country tell the UN to move its HQ to Switzerland, or some other "more civilized" country, and go it alone.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
"One wonders how the US government would react if a foreign nation tried a similar approach."
You mean there are people in the States that haven't been per^H^Hrosecuted by the RIAA/MPAA already?
---------
Launch all sig
If a forigner commits a crime against an American they can be extradited for the crime. However what this almost always requires is that the crime was committed in America. Seeing as this isn't the case here, Australia is right to deny the extradition.
What if you could go back in time and encourage Hitler in his career as a painter?
Did ./ add a +1 Anti-US or +1 European option? Seriously, the moderations here are just silly. Of COURSE the US has contiengency plans for freeing Americans held by the ICC. The US doesn't recognise the ICC's authority, therefore if the court were to hold an American, it wouldn't be legal in America's eyes.
How you'll note they are just that, military contiengency plans. The US also has military contiengency plans for offence and defense against almost every nation (including Canada) and even contiengency plans for total world nuclear annihlation in response to the same kind of attack.
What military tacticians of any compentant military do is to plan and plan and plan. They think up every possible scenario, and then work up plans for how to deal with it. This includes lots of very unlikely and outlandish scenarios. The ICC scenario is one of those. Suppose the ICC decided to hold an important US diplomat, maybe the president or one of the Joint-Chiefs. Well diplomatic negoations would immedatly commense but suppose they refused to listen? Well the US isn't going to be in a situation where they don't have a plan, they have thought of that.
So before you shoot your mouth off, read up on how the miltary actually operates these days in competent countries. Oh, and read up on extraditions. There are tons of requests made each year to any given country. Some make perfect sense, some are stupid. Some are granted some are rejected.
Notice that the US is NOT threatening Australia, they simply requested an extradition, which is legal, there is a treaty allowing both countries to do so. The Austrailian court heard the argument, and decided the US lacked a legitimate case and said no. Now, the US may appeal if they like. This is all per the treaty.
This is NOT big news.
They'd fight. Difference is, they'd win. Of course the world would stand with them because the US has permission to have WMD, as do other nations like France and the UK.
Oh, and what the hell does this have to do with an extradition request? You know that countries make those ALL the time, right? They just don't make the news.
Seriously, people here are bitching and crying about this like the US is threatening to invade Australia. Repeat after me: These proceeding are NORMAL, LEAGAL, and DEMOCRATIC.
An Australian citizen allegedly commited crimes (copyright infringment) on Australian soil. However these crimes had an effect on US citizens, specifically the companies that own the copyrights allegedly infringed. Now, the Australian courts decided NOT to prosecute the suspect for their own reasons. The US then sought extradition to try the suspect in the US courts, since he had allegedly broken US law and the victims were US citizens.
Extradition isn't automatic. All an extradition treaty means is that the countries agree to hear each other's extradition requests in court. So Austrailian court heard the US's request. They then came to the decision that the case did NOT merit extradition under Australian law or the extradition treaty and have told the US this.
Now the US must decide if they wish to appeal or drop the matter......
So what is the fucking problem?!
Countries with mutual extradition treaties do this all the time. They request a person be extradited for various reasons. The courts hear the argument, and decide to accept or reject it. This is NOT a case of the US throwing it's weight around. They made a request through proper channels, and it was denied. They now appeal it through proper channels, if they wish.
Get off the anti-US BS and read up on extradition law before you shoot your mouth off. This is just silly. Democracy isn't about agreeing with you, it's about the people deciding on the law and then the government upholding the law. The US and Australia decided on an extradition treaty, and that is what's being used now.
Oh, and the US isn't a Democracy, it's a Federal Republic, which means that the people don't tend to vote for most laws, just those that make them.
you know, moderating a post marked "OT" as offtopic is a little redundant...not to mention demonstrating a complete misunderstanding of the moderation system.
went out of style as soon as the Greeks invented those gastraphetes machines (precursors to the catapult)... ...unless you have one of those light sabre thingys...then you can do _anything_!
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code...
n e 1 got warez 4 bitorent??
I know it isn't a popular opinion to have because these actions are illegal but I can only hope that he is able to get off with no penalty. I look at the way we are going with our current fight for digital rights like a war, and our commitment to blatantly steal what we should be charged for is our greatest ally in showing major corporations that we will not only not aid them in their quest to control everything but also take the goods they are trying to sell and enjoy ourselves as well.
./revolution