Slashdot Mirror
Mushroom Cloud Reported Over North Korea
cbrocious writes "Yahoo! News is reporting a mushroom cloud over North Korea that occured on Thursday in Yanggang province near the border with China. 'The explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county blasted a crater big enough to be noticed by a satellite, the source said.'"
"there was no immediate indication that Thursday's reported explosion was linked to Pyongyang's efforts to develop nuclear weapons."
What was it then? Car crash? Natural gas explosion? Hmm..."no immediate indication." Bah!
I'm actually kind of surprised it took this long to hit the wires though....I mean, shouldn't we have picked it up and there been at least, a news report? Or some sort of acknowledgement of the situation by those in power........
I bet most of the Pacific Rim's probably up in arms over this-Especially the Chinese, TFA states it hit somewhere close to the China-North Korean border..... You'd think with something like that, either the Chinese would strike or raise hell along the diplomatic channels.....
Reminds me of those WWII era Civil Defense movies I saw once in a history class...You
know, the one with the turtle...
"Ok kids, what do we do when the bomb hits?"
"DUCK! AND COVER!"
-thewldisntenuff
My MythTV HowTo
~~~
Someone set us up the bomb!
Ah am not a crook! (\(-__-)/)
First of all, no doubt its a nuke. No conventional explosive creates that large a mushroom cloud... well if you had about 10,000 tons of TNT maybe you could, but otherwise its most likely a nuke.
But now that they have working nukes... don't know whether we can trust Kim not to use them... North Korea used to be Russia's puppet, but is now an orphan nation. And they will do anything to get attention.
all of our troups are in Iraq.
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
This probably isn't a nuclear detonation, since they would be instantly detected, due to the huge flash created. Back in the 80s, we had satellite technology to detect nuclear explosions. Don't you think we have it now?
got sig?
But the cloud was produced by MS word...
Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.
How long can we ignore this crazy bastard, Kim Jong-il I mean? Are we gonna have to wait until he strikes oil?
-dameron
Help us all if its a nuke, Stuff Iraq the US of A will heading there on the next plane in
Those wacky North Koreans... at it again.
Nuclear Launch... Detected
....who looked at the title of this article, and wondered whether it was North Korea or the U.S. who dropped it?
Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
Oh shit...hung lo's toilet blew up...I warned him not to eat all that pork fried rice.
Couldn't they at least wait till bush is out of the government?
Cheers,
RoadkillBunny
I'd mod this up (there's a hint there. How do I mod stuff up?)
haha, ive been saying it for years now. north korea is going to nuke japan. looks like i can now cancel any kind of plans to go anywhere near asia :)
oh shit.
Y! is really the only 'big' News Outlet that has more then just a small blurb about it. Untill I see a nice satellite image, or photo of the cloud or something concrete, I'm skeptical.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
I wonder, if it was a nuke I'd assume they'd try make it rather small, since N. Korea doesn't exactly have a large amount of space to do above ground nuke testing does it? So...assuming that, they should be able to make a bigger one? This does not bode well.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3647 278.stm
US aided South Korea experiments put pressure on North to develop nuclear technology.
wondering why this isn't all over the news? Where are the pictures, reports, I mean if there is a chance this was nuclear in origin than it is A BIG DEAL. I certainly want to know what the hell is going on over there.
"What was it then? Car crash? Natural gas explosion? Hmm..."no immediate indication." Bah!"
Yo! Taco Bell.
Something interesting to note. This took place on Thursday, 09 September. Two days ago. The news is only getting out now.
Anyone else think it quite remarkable that we live in an age where information travels at incredible speeds all over the world... but it took two days for the (at least mainstream) media to report this? Think about it. There are still places in the world where something equivalent to a small nuke can go off -- mushroom cloud and all -- and we don't NOTICE it right away.
It's kind of humbling.
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
Ok, so the article said this explosion happened on Thursday. If it was a nuke, there would have been like eighty kajillion reports of it by now (saturday, in the US). Not that I am dubious, just wanted to point out the time discrepency.
Simply because there are no conventional explosives that produce the mushroom cloud reported, doesn't exclude non-conventional explosives. There's an old story about a russian oil pipeline that broke and exploded as a result of some chip documents that they stole, slightly after we modified them to malfunction. Many sources claim it was suspected to be a nuclear detonation for a few hours. We'll see how this one turns out. There's no pipeline to Korea that I know of...
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Not really the news I wanted to hear. The last thing we need is that nutcase Kim Jong Il with nuclear-fucking-weapons! I was (and am) against the war in Iraq - Saddam never kept me up at night. Kim Jong Il, on the other hand, is a different story. This guy could be extremely dangerous. I can't really think of a good way to contain/eliminate him, but I'm thinking it would be a smart idea to do so before he starts LAUNCHING NUCLEAR FUCKING WEAPONS!
-=Memo to Bush=-
___________________
Wrong country, dude.
Electric Monkey Pants
So THATS where the weapons of mass destruction were. Its easy to see how one can confuse OIL Rich Iraq with Rain Forest N. Korea.
I figure unless theres a HUGE diamond mine or oil fields N. Korea can test all the nukes they want.
Indeed, any large enough explosion will give a mushroom-shaped cloud for atmospheric and fluid dynamic reasons. The presence of a mushroom cloud does not necessarily indicate a nuclear blast.
The appropriate question will be whether they see radiation consistent with a nuclear blast.
I've always wondered why NK isn't "allowed" nukes but China is. What if suddenly Mexico of even Canada got them? Would we fight them? What if the current Iraq gov't gets them do we do another regime change on the one we put in?
Why don't you guys have friends or journals?
N. Korea Blast
The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
In related news King Koopa claims that the giant mushroom cloud which appeared at the former site of the princess's castle was not atomic but the result of a freak accident which occured when genetic micologists attempted to create a hybrid of the following mushrooms: 1up and BigUp. Apparently, the hybrid had been left near a fire flower and BOOM! Mushroom cloud.
There is exactly zero reason to believe the U.S. would be dropping nuclear weapons on North Korea or anywhere else at this point. Give me a break.
What you people are unaware of is that this is all part of a cunning plan. A deal stroke between Saddam and Kim. You see, Saddam had to hide all those weapons SOMEWHERE, didn't he? Of course he had weapons in there, he just sent them by snail mail to Kim to hide. But then they caught Saddam in a hole and... you know the rest of the story, and there was no bunny with a clock yelling "it's late, it's late".
I guess it's too late to say thay while Bush was busy lying everyone and diverting attentions, Kim and its regime were developing? Hmmm... apparently it's too late indeed. Wonder what follows...
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
Be downwind with a dosimeter.
If the US military still has them, they should be flying one of the dust-collecting planes that can collect enough data from the debris to give you design details of a bomb.
Meantime, think about the amount of stored chemical energy in a fueled ICBM or read about the Halifax explosion.
You mean this movie?
Remember what Bert the Turtle does!
Hey now, maybe it's a good mushroom cloud. You know, like umm... err... a cotton candy factory exploding. That wouldn't be too bad, right?
According to this New York Times article to be published tomorrow, Bush had received intel in the past few days that North Korea was preparing to test a nuclear device.
i think everyone just needs to calm down for a second.
first off, Bush isn't to blaim for them launching nukes, and secondly - yes its a major event, but we are blowing it out of proportion
i think we should all calm down a little and wait for the obvious cover-up
Here
Possession of the nukes all but guarantees immunity from invasion. This means they can now safely reduce their conventional forces by 30-40% and start working on things less critical to their survival.
Right now after the explosion of their main power plant would be a good time for the Federation to extend a hand towards the North Klingon empire and offer them a peace treaty. Send in Arnold and his crew.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/11/nkorea .blast/index.html
I think it's telling that the offical who is quoted in the story said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire. Either this story has been blow waaaaay out of proportion or it's being downplayed until the current administation has a chance to make an offical press release and response.
Google's News.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Is it me or are we again close to Sep/11? Maybe they'll claim this was a terrorist act. Hei... it worked with Bush, maybe Kim will be able to convince the world he had nothing to do with it! Or maybe they just want to hitchike the (in)famous date, thus working as a gentle reminder that the world SHOULD well be paying more attention to NK.
I mean... c'mon... this is ridiculous. You wage a war in Iraq over nothing, and now the guy you simply ignored is wielding nukes? It'd be funny wasn't it outrageous!
"I don't mind God, it's his fan club I can't stand!" E8
Well, it took a while, but at least we finally found those darn WMDs!
Seriously, what the fuck was going on in Washington when they were trying to sell us on going to war in Iraq? We knew at the time for a fact that North Korea did have nuclear weapons (they even admitted it), but we went to war in Iraq on the possibility that Saddam Hussein might could maybe possibly be on his way towards making a nuclear weapon... which was later shown to be faulty evidence anyways.
I was also wondering WHO detonated the bomb, but I honestly don't think GWB would not be that rash... Well, maybe not...
It is odd that this explosion and the 'train' explosion both occur near the China border. I tried to find out if they happened in the same place, but could not find a map with the 'Yanggang' province outlined. Everything I have read about the 'train' explosion a while back sounded like a nuke... maybe it was...
Fox News reports it was a forest fire. Indications point to Saddam Hussein igniting said fire. Connection... certain.
------
[insert funny
The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire.
Damn, we must look stupid to gov't officials.
Cheers,
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
Remember the whole reason a North & South Korea exists is because China supported the Communist North.
... yet.
So, if the US goes into NK, we are pretty much going to go mano-a-mano with the PRC for domination of the globe. Neither the US or the PRC really want that.
Screaming about "oil" and "aren't they the same" really ignores significant differences.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well, we all knew that something was planned for the election.
of course, if N. Korea did attack us, as saudi arabia did, we can count on dubya to respond by attacking some other third country, but only after fabricating evidence.
We are so so so fucked. Especially since we are over our heads in places where we don't belong.
Fuck this shit. Impeach him before it is too late. We need an intelligent competent leader - and I don't mean cheney - we need someone who isn't pure evil.
New York Times
Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns
By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
September 12, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/5kb3d
WASHINGTON, Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence.
While the indications were viewed as serious enough to warrant a warning to the White House, American intelligence agencies appear divided about the significance of the new North Korean actions, much as they were about the evidence concerning Iraq's alleged weapons stockpiles.
Some analysts in agencies that were the most cautious about the Iraq findings have cautioned that they do not believe the activity detected in North Korea in the past three weeks is necessarily the harbinger of a test. A senior scientist who assesses nuclear intelligence says the new evidence "is not conclusive," but is potentially worrisome.
If successful, a test would end a debate that stretches back more than a decade over whether North Korea has a rudimentary arsenal, as it has boasted in recent years. Some analysts also fear that a test could change the balance of power in Asia, perhaps leading to a new nuclear arms race there.
In interviews on Friday and Saturday, senior officials were reluctant to provide many details of the new activities they have detected, but some of the information appears to have come from satellite intelligence.
One official with access to the intelligence called it "a series of indicators of increased activity that we believe would be associated with a test," saying that the "likelihood" of a North Korean test had risen significantly in just the past four weeks. It was that changed assessment that led to the decision to give an update to President Bush, the officials said.
The activities included the movement of materials around several suspected test sites, including one near a location where intelligence agencies reported last year that conventional explosives were being tested that could compress a plutonium core and set off a nuclear blast. But officials have not seen the classic indicators of preparations at a test site, in which cables are laid to measure an explosion in a deep test pit.
"I'm not sure you would see that in a country that has tunnels everywhere," said one senior official who has reviewed the data. Officials said if North Korea proceeded with a test, it would probably be with a plutonium bomb, perhaps one fabricated from the 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods that the North has boasted in the past few months have been reprocessed into bomb fuel.
A senior intelligence official noted Saturday that even if "they are doing something, it doesn't mean they will" conduct a test, noting that preparations that the North knew could be detected by the United States might be a scare tactic or negotiating tactic by the North Korean government.
Several officials speculated that the test, if it occurred, could be intended to influence the presidential election, though a senior military official said while "an election surprise" could be the motive, "I'm not sure what that would buy them."
While the intelligence community's experience in Iraq colors how it assesses threats in places like North Korea, the comparisons are inexact. Inspectors have seen and measured the raw material that the North could turn into bomb fuel; the only question is whether they have done so in the 20 months since arms inspectors were ousted. While Iraq denied it has weapons, the North boasts about them - perhaps too loudly, suggesting they may have less than they say.
On the other hand, the divisions within the administration over how to deal with North Korea mirrors some of the old debate about Iraq. Hard-l
Behind one these curtains is a weird, probably psychotic dictator with weapons of mass destruction? Can you guess which one?
A: Behind our curtain!
Patent: from Latin patere, to be open
Apparantly the President knows about this but the white house is reluctant to admit it, the White House doesn't mention the mushroom cloud, but refers to ' a confusing series of actions', this seems a bit odd, since the word is already out that there most likely was a nuclear detonation in N. Korea, see MY Times article below: Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD Published: September 12, 2004 ASHINGTON, Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence. While the indications were viewed as serious enough to warrant a warning to the White House, American intelligence agencies appear divided about the significance of the new North Korean actions, much as they were about the evidence concerning Iraq's alleged weapons stockpiles. Advertisement Some analysts in agencies that were the most cautious about the Iraq findings have cautioned that they do not believe the activity detected in North Korea in the past three weeks is necessarily the harbinger of a test. A senior scientist who assesses nuclear intelligence says the new evidence "is not conclusive," but is potentially worrisome. If successful, a test would end a debate that stretches back more than a decade over whether North Korea has a rudimentary arsenal, as it has boasted in recent years. Some analysts also fear that a test could change the balance of power in Asia, perhaps leading to a new nuclear arms race there. In interviews on Friday and Saturday, senior officials were reluctant to provide many details of the new activities they have detected, but some of the information appears to have come from satellite intelligence. One official with access to the intelligence called it "a series of indicators of increased activity that we believe would be associated with a test," saying that the "likelihood" of a North Korean test had risen significantly in just the past four weeks. It was that changed assessment that led to the decision to give an update to President Bush, the officials said. The activities included the movement of materials around several suspected test sites, including one near a location where intelligence agencies reported last year that conventional explosives were being tested that could compress a plutonium core and set off a nuclear blast. But officials have not seen the classic indicators of preparations at a test site, in which cables are laid to measure an explosion in a deep test pit. "I'm not sure you would see that in a country that has tunnels everywhere," said one senior official who has reviewed the data. Officials said if North Korea proceeded with a test, it would probably be with a plutonium bomb, perhaps one fabricated from the 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods that the North has boasted in the past few months have been reprocessed into bomb fuel. A senior intelligence official noted Saturday that even if "they are doing something, it doesn't mean they will" conduct a test, noting that preparations that the North knew could be detected by the United States might be a scare tactic or negotiating tactic by the North Korean government. Several officials speculated that the test, if it occurred, could be intended to influence the presidential election, though a senior military official said while "an election surprise" could be the motive, "I'm not sure what that would buy them." While the intelligence community's experience in Iraq colors how it assesses threats in places like North Korea, the comparisons are inexact. Inspectors have seen and measured the raw material that the North could turn into bomb fuel; the only question is whether they have done so in the 20 months since arms inspectors were ousted. While Iraq denied it has weapons, the North boasts about them - perhaps too loudly, sugge
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3647 278.stm
the musical fruit!
12:50 - press return.
So who gives a damn that N. Korea might have a nuke?
The bloody pakis have had nukes for years AND are behind most of the world's terrorist incidents *including* 9-11. All terrorist roads lead to paki madrassas. I don't see them being taken apart for that.
In fact, everyone should have nukes - the only way to prevent that f*cking moron Dubya and the f*cking piece of shit Cheney from invading every resource-rich country just for lining their
own cowardly pockets.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/inter national-korea-north-minister.html r national-korea-north-explosion.html r national-north-korea-explosion.html
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/inte
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/inte
There have been a few posts already questioning whether or not this would be the result of a nuclear weapon. That's really not the point, is it? I mean, have you ever known a giant mushroom cloud to be a good thing?
Similarly, if it was a nuke, Japan's geiger counters have had plenty of time to go off by now.
It's pronounced "nucular".
See also this site
Recall that 9-11 even created a seismic event
--
I believe the SwiftVets
I believe Juanita
Operational Plans with some information on what the US/ROK think a conventional war with the DPRK would be like.
n -5 027.htmp s/oplan-5 026.htm
If that were to happen.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/opla
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/o
... 4 more George, then 8 more Jeb. You heard it here first.
All GPS satellites have detectors for a nuclear flash.
http://ares.redsword.com/GPS/old/sum_sat.htm
I saw video of a rocket fuel plant exlpoding in the US.... biggest explosion short of nuclear I've ever seen. IT flattened homes up to a mile away, i think.
Just a few questions: Assuming (just go with me) this was a nuke, given the mushroom cloud measurments given in the news story, is it possible to guestimate at the size of the bomb used, and if so, could someone compare it to some US / USSR nuke info? Kinda curious.
Pakistan and India have already done this, Iran will probably be following shortly.
I'm suprised China isn't pissed off, what with this thing going off right near their border. Oops, wind shifted north, sorry guys...
To get some attention from the rest of the world, the North Korean people are DYING IN THE STREETS OF STARVATION!
They are adopting the strategy of the little nation (I've forgoten it's name) in "The Mouse that Roared", of fighting the US (or ANYONE with money) so that the US will come in and rebuild the nation.
Less look fast, more go fast.
CNN's N Korean Blast
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
If it was an above-ground nuclear detonation, there will be plenty of fallout to analyze. North Korea is not a big enough country to contain all the radioactive particulate matter that would be generated by such a blast.
In addition, there may also be seismic confirmation. I'm not sure if it extends to above ground fission detonations, but I'm pretty sure most earthquake activity monitors in the US used to detect the underground tests done in the USSR.
Finaly, to those of you who are ok with them having nuclear weapons capability, keep in mind that at least from the perspective of the US, they have supplied many of this country's enemies with enhanced weapons capabilities. To passively allow those who would willingly use these things to acquire them is to invite your own destruction.
Just because we have them does not mean everyone should. It means that we(the world) should strive to conduct ourselves in such a way that no one needs/wants them. There are better things to do!
This CNN story claims that a US official suggests that the mushroom cloud might be caused by a forest fire. A little bit of physics knowledge [layman/common-sense] makes this suggestion laughable: a mushroom cloud is caused by a large amount of superheated gasses, concentrated and hot enough to rise miles into the atmosphere before dissipating enough to break the cap. Unless they have had a multi-year drought and a forest dense enough to flash to many thousand degrees C in a very short period of time, there's no possible way the mushroom cloud was created that way.
Now, it's entirely possible that it is not a mushroom cloud, as it sounds like all the indications of its presence so far are satellite shots. AFAIK very few, if any, satellites can shoot pictures at a sufficiently low angle to actually get enough outline to confirm a mushroom cloud. Basic physics again: too low and angle, you get a massively distored image because there's a) more air in the way, and b) angle of incidence causes wild refraction.
If anyone can elaborate on (or correct) these two issues, please comment. I'd be glad to be proven wrong in some way, as a verified nuclear N.Korea is not a good thing. However, what we know so far is not promising.
GStreamer - The only way to stream!
i'm surprised the FP didnt go with AYB. the one time when it's actually not off-topic =)
Are there any online seismometers that show this blast. A nuclear explosion would show one big spike, but large ordnance would show a series of smaller spikes.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
Like I know everyone has their minds set on WMD but couldn't it just be a bigger-than-chernobyl fuck-up? Just a thought... Frankly I'm not that concerned about North Korea having nukes. I'm going to support this is an unusual place... the American constituion. I am not an American citizen. But I am a little world about American being the global power it is. Iti s known that plans are underway to increase America's nuclear capabilities. I figure that nuclear weapons are to nations as guns are to individuals, and a case can be made for seeing theUS as at least the global goverment in a certain sense. Therefore the more countries with nuclear power the bigger an incentive for the US to hammer out comprises (ie. Iraq). Really I think this the spirit of the second amendment taken to a global perspective. Now, if I were a Neo-Con I'd be antsy about my loosening grip on nuclear weapons, but I think as a whole this isn't too much too worry about. And any arguments about mad countries that can be made can apply to mad citizens with AK-47s. Mind you, I have been enjoying the Politics section a lot lately. Maybe they'll make sections for other prominent countries on /. ?
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
"President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence."
NYT article "Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns," Sept. 11, 2004
G
...the citizens of North Korea have tired of being treated like dirt with no food, water, medicine, rights, etc. and collectively built (or stole) a bomb, then crowded in together - suicide en masse. It would be immediate and not any worse than they were enduring.
I've read stories (some in Slashdot I believe) of the supposed pipeline the USSR was building to Europe, that 3-4 Megaton explosion in the middle of Siberia. If it happened, the largest non-nuclear explosion in history. If it didn't... well, it did, but no one wants to talk about that embaressing cold war these days :)
:p, Not Siberia.
ATTN TROLLS: The pipeline was what blew up
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/11/nk orea.blast/
Glad to see we (the US) have got that wacky intel problem solved and now we're getting conclusive information...
s ia/12nuke.html?ei=5006&en=87e70c368a1790ca&ex=1095 566400&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&positio n=
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/international/a
Atomic Activity in North Korea Raises Concerns
Sept. 11 - President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence.
While the indications were viewed as serious enough to warrant a warning to the White House, American intelligence agencies appear divided about the significance of the new North Korean actions, much as they were about the evidence concerning Iraq's alleged weapons stockpiles.
134,000: Number of US troops sent to Iraq, to topple Saddam Hussein's regime, which had nothing to do with September 11th.
17,900: Number of US troops sent to Afghanistan, to hunt down Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, the people responsible for September 11th and other terrorist attacks against the US.
That give you an indication of what the Bush adminstrations priorities have been?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Here's the article.k orea.blast/
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/11/n
>Do you want to keep sending these guys money and stuff?
Sanctions on Iraq.
Sanctions on N Korea.
Details of Fuel Oil program for NK.
In other words, they aren't getting "tons of free stuff" and NK developed, broke its reactors seals, etc under the "cowboy diplomacy" of the Bush admnistration, not Clinton. There are solutions to problems and if you can keep UN inspectors in and nukes out by bribing someone with fuel oil than so be it. We are witnessing the "tough guy" alternative. Are you ready to be drafted to fight a couple more wars for "cowboy diplomacy?"
http://english.people.com.cn/200409/10/eng20040910 _156511.html
Um, isn't this the same thing? it had a goddamn HUGE cloud.
Totally useless news topic if so.
South Korea (especially the younger generation) wants the US out. So, ...
1) Leave SK
2) Declare that we'll officially recognize whatever government is in control of Seoul.
3) Hope NK attacks
4a) If not, worry about someplace else, and keep asking why the PRC (as the 2nd superpower) has not handled the problem. Imply that this is a stain on the national honour of the PRC and their people.
4b) If so, ask the UN if we can take care of this act of "unprovoked agression" or say we already have the right due to the Korean War UN resolutions (the Korean War never offically ended remember?)
It is true that I was never an "official" member, but I swallowed so much gay nigger seed that I might as well have been one. Anyway, the fact is that I was the one who posted that link. I guess I can't claim ownership over the link, but we both where you got the link from. I know that deep down inside, you love Jews and cry @ 9/11.
didn't dune2 have it for when the harkonnen launched their nuke?
Nobody has exploded a nuclear device in the atmosphere for decades, and for good reason. I live in Iowa, which studies showed was the perfect place to live if you wanted to absorb the maximum possible amount of strontium 90 from our own nuclear tests in Nevada in the 50's. So my bones are probably rotting away from the inside with cancer already. Now North Korea has to start it all up again.
And don't they understand that Bush is a gun-toting cowboy who's just agonizing over what he's going to drop bombs on next? Are they nuts?
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
From here
SEOUL : A huge explosion rocked North Korea's northern inland province of Ryanggang last week, triggering a mushroom cloud at least two miles in radius, South Korea's Yonhap news agency said.
The explosion appeared to be stronger than an April 22 blast that killed more than 150 people and wounded some 1,300 others in Ryongchon near the western tip of North Korea's border with China, it said Sunday.
The latest blast took place in Kimhyungjik county near the Chinese border on September 9, when North Korea marked the 56th anniversary of its founding, Yonhap said, citing unnamed sources in Beijing.
"The United States was known to have shown its keen interest in the explosion after spotting its traces by satellite," the source was quoted as saying.
South Korea's unification minister Chung Dong-Young said Seoul had received an unsubstantiated report on the explosion in North Korea.
"We have received an unsubstantiated report on traces of an explosion in North Korea," he told reporters after a meeting of security-related officials. The unnamed source in Beijing said the blast had prompted speculation in Washington that the explosion was possibly related to a nuclear experiment, it said.
Chung, however, played down the possibility of a North Korea's nuclear weapons test.
He said the South Korean government was not aware of the scale of the blast but Yonhap quoted a diplomatic source in Seoul as saying the blast triggered a mushroom cloud with a radius of 3.5 to four kilometers (2.4 miles).
"The explosion occurred at around 11 am. But it is not clear yet whether the explosion is related to an intentional nuclear experiment or a simple accident," he was quoted as saying.
He noted the site of the explosion was not far from the North's missile base, according to Yonhap.
The New York Times reported on its Web site Saturday that US President George W. Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first nuclear weapons test.
Citing unnamed senior officials with access to intelligence, the newspaper said US intelligence agencies appeared divided over the significance of the new North Korean actions.
The suspicious activities included the movement of materials around several suspected test sites, including one near a location where intelligence agencies reported last year that conventional explosives were being tested that could compress a plutonium core and set off a nuclear explosion, The Times said.
But officials have not seen the classic indicators of preparations at a test site, in which cables are laid to measure an explosion in a deep test pit, according to the report.
US officials said if North Korea proceeded with a test, it would probably be with a plutonium bomb, perhaps one fabricated from the 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods that the North has boasted in the past few months have been reprocessed into bomb fuel, the report pointed out.
However, some analysts in agencies that were the most cautious about Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction have cautioned that they do not believe the activity detected in North Korea in the past three weeks is necessarily the harbinger of a test, The Times reported.
Some analysts fear that a successful nuclear weapon test by North Korea could change the balance of power in Asia, perhaps leading to a new nuclear arms race there, the paper said.
- AFP
have a massive rail car explosion a few months ago? Lets not jump in and say it a nuke, when they have demonstrated the ability to flatten towns with railcar accidents.
Of course the timing and current environment would be prime for a Nuke test as well...
George wants a reason to go into north korea:
- motive
- have the weapons
just used a small one to look like NK had just developed one.
The deal is that the plume from the explosion/fire/burning forest should be visible on satellite photos.
When all else fails, run.
The Yonhap news agency, citing an unidentified source in Beijing, said the explosion happened Thursday...
Looks like a well-known news agency with a definite source.
"We understand that a mushroom-shaped cloud about 3.5 to 4 kilometers (about 2-2 1/2 miles) in diameter was monitored during the explosion," Yonhap quoted an unidentified diplomatic source in Seoul as saying.
Unidentified diplomatic source? Okay then, it's good enough for me!
Experts have speculated that North Korea might use a major anniversary to conduct a nuclear-related test, though there was no immediate indication that Thursday's reported explosion was linked to Pyongyang's efforts to develop nuclear weapons.
What experts? Notice there's no definite proof, only speculation! Yahoo! definitely seems to be covering its ass with that lil' disclaimer -- notice that the article text shows that there's no immediate indication that this apparent explosion was an effort to develop nuclear weaponry!
Kim Hyong Jik is reported to hold a major missile base.
Reported by whom?
North Korea, which has a large missile arsenal and more than 1 million soldiers, is dotted with military installations.
Wow! So does the States! But these North Koreans... they're different than us; how DARE they have soldiers and military installations?
South Korea (news - web sites)'s Unification Minister Chung Dong-young said Sunday the government was in the process of confirming reports there were signs of an explosion in North Korea.
I'll wait for that confirmation, thanks.
"I am not aware of details such as the size of the damage," he was quoted as saying by Yonhap after a National Security Council meeting.
Seems taken out of context to me. Remember, this is the same guy who said the government was in the process of confirming reports there were signs of an explosion!
On Saturday, North Korea said recent revelations that South Korea conducted secret nuclear experiments involving uranium and plutonium made the communist state more determined to pursue its own atomic programs.
Communism is evil, boys and girls.
On April 22, train wagons at a railway station exploded in the North Korean town of Ryongchon, killing 160 people and injuring an estimated 1,300, according to some estimates. The blast was believed to have been sparked by a train laden with oil and chemicals that hit power lines.
Uh... okay.
The source in the Yonhap report said Thursday's explosion reportedly was bigger than the train explosion.
Ah, now I see where the author was going. Gotcha. But I'm fairly certain said train explosion, no matter how fantastic, would pale in comparison to a nuclear blast. Kinda makes the whole comparison worthless, doesn't it?
Until recently, I didn't believe in media propaganda. Seemed a bit too far-fetched and paranoid for me. Today, I sincerely believe that it exists, and the world is worse-off because of it.
_IF_ this is a nuclear explosion, where is the fallout heading? Hope it's not the western half of the US...
If it's heading here, shouldn't someone from the US gov't inform it's citizens?
Don't jump to conclusions. Reporters are notorious for being inaccurate, and modern news services are notorious for rapidly spreading news stories whether or not the sources are credible.
Our government and NORAD monitor everything and know what's going on. You can't expect to know the real story until you have your own satellite in orbit and your own offshore seismic monitoring stations.
So if you're stressed out right now I suggest you read a good book, hit up a good house party, get drunk, get laid, smoke dope, whatever -- and don't worry so much on a Saturday night.
Funny thing is, if politicians and military people could do the same (chill out a bit) instead of going ape shit and provoking escalations, we would live in a safer, happier world. So if there is something to worry about, let's hope that the People in Power don't do anything too stupid. When in doubt, be nice.
Today's weapon of choice is as simple as a box cutter.
...raise your hands. Now, tell us HOW you think this should be handled:
1. Go over there and nuke them now before they really start causing trouble.
2. Let's reserve judgement until we know for sure it was a nuke. Then if it was, let's go over there and nuke them before they really start causing trouble.
3. Let's reserve judgement until we know for sure it was a nuke. Then if it was, let's hope the current administration will set up talks with North Korea to try and reach some compromises to their demands.
4. OK. So they have nukes. So what? Leave them alone. It's none of our business.
I am certain that we will know your political affiliations based on which answer you relate to the most.
Un-news
Looks like they really did find Osama...
A forest fire...?
/ nk orea.blast/
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12
N/T
Why would the USGS have sensors in N. Korea? Are you saying the sensors in California picked up the 9/11 accident?
According to sources NK were believed to conduct a nuclear test in the forseeable future. You decide.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Yeah -- "Shiny Happy People". But it's more like "Glowing, Unhappy People"
"Yahoo! News is reporting a mushroom cloud over North Korea"
At least it wasn't over South Korea... yet...
Hey, isn't this a good thing? Considering that North Korea is such a bassackwards place that you can see their borders in a view of the Earth at night - it's the big dark blob between China and South Korea!
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Democratic Alies are 'allowed' to have nukes. aliances allow this so that no member of the aliance group has an advantage based on the alliance. such as the US has nukes, so if you are a US ally you are allowed to have nukes also :) this isn't the 'law' but the 'law' seems to function this way.
ENEMIES are not allowed to have nukes if anything can be done about it. NK having nukes is bad but what is the US going to do about it??
if the US invades or bombs NK, then china MAY start choosing sides and those crazy chineese are unpredictable. china might not like the idea of the US controlling(occupying) a country so close to them.
also, as mentioned before, seoul would definitely be leveled first thing, even if the US stayed away from it, consider it a hostage.....
a 2 kilometer explosion is quite large, and COULD be made with conventional weapons but it would take a hell of a lot. a MOAB makes a cloud about half that size at most depending on surface conditions. Likely it was a 10-15kiloton nuke, or about that size.
also, the nuke isn't the only matter, does NK have a delivery method? do they have missles or ICBMs capable of threatening the US? prob not, but japan, taiwan, SK, china and whole lotta asia is prob within range. not good.
it sick to say, but the best hope is that NK pisses off china and china FREAKS!, those 1mil NK soliers aren't much of a match against china with 10 times that in active service!
Ah, just thought you were challenging the credibility of the source. On that note, about 5 minutes after posting this, I read another story that seems to downplay the whole thing. Looks interesting, but unlikely to be a nuke. None of the typical preparation appears to have been done for a nuke test, and it did happen Thursday. If it were a nuke test, I think N. Korea would have done a little bragging by now. N. Korea appears to have a lot of problems right now, not nukes.
To those who are unconvinced or willing to entertain the notion that this was the result of a forest fire or some other magnificent coincidence I quote the book/movie Contact on Occams Razor.
Ellie Arroway: "Occam's Razor, the basic scientific principle. And it says... all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one."
More info about Occam's razor than you could ever want...
Google: Occam's Razor
I have to think that it will come out in the near future that this cloud was indeed the result of a nuclear test and that is highly disturbing to me. What is more disturbing is the lack of information the media has and will likley have in the coming weeks/months regarding this test.
Pray to 'em if you got 'em folks...
*kneels* Please lord, Cowboy Neal, help us all in our time of need.
Paektu-san (Mount Paektu or White Head Mountain), is an extinct volcano and Korea's highest mountain (2,744 meters). It's located on North Korea's northern land border. It may have sprung violently back to life like North America's own Mount St. Helens.
Also, forest fires occur there with some regularity (more than 130 at once this summer), and can produce large white mushroom shaped clouds under the right atmospheric conditions.
Let's not jump to conclusions. Oh wait, this is Slashdot....
Well, if a forest fire can create a crater visible by satellite, I think we better start opening up our national forests to logging right away!
Information is still sparse but trickling in. Reuters has an article up on it right now.
Big Blast, Mushroom Cloud Reported in N.Korea
Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:54 AM ET
By Kim Miyoung and Paul Eckert
SEOUL (Reuters) - A huge explosion rocked North Korea near the border with China three days ago, producing a mushroom cloud that sparked speculation Pyongyang might have tested an atomic weapon, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday.
The South Korean agency said the blast on Thursday in Kimhyungjik county in Ryanggang province appeared much bigger than a train explosion that killed at least 170 people in April.
South Korean Unification Minister Chung Dong-young sought to play down an atomic link, telling South Korean reporters after a National Security Council meeting that Seoul's assessment so far was the explosion was unlikely to have been part of the communist North's nuclear arms ambitions.
"There are some foreign media reporting such possibilities, but we are judging at the moment the explosion is unrelated to such reports," Yonhap quoted him as saying. Chung chairs the National Security Council, which advises President Roh Moo-hyun.
There was no immediate reaction from neighboring China. In Washington, a U.S. official said it was unclear what had happened and there were various possible explanations. Tokyo took a similar line.
"We've heard the report, and we are checking the details, including what's in the report itself," said Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman Akira Chiba.
Thursday was the 56th anniversary of North Korea's founding. The reclusive communist state often stages extravaganzas and big events to mark important anniversaries.
South Korean intelligence officials said they were monitoring the news, but declined detailed comment on the reports, which were based on "informed sources" in Beijing and in Seoul. Yonhap did not give a description of the blast site.
ACCIDENT OR TEST?
The reports surfaced as South Korea, Japan, China, Russia and the United States were seeking to persuade North Korea to return to the negotiating table to discuss its nuclear weapons ambitions. The North, which threatened at earlier talks to test an atomic bomb, has said it doubts more negotiations will help.
"There were rumors that the explosion was much bigger than the one at Ryongchon train station and the United States is showing a big interest as the blast was seen from satellites," Yonhap quoted an unnamed source in Beijing as saying.
The cause had yet to be determined but the source said Washington was not ruling out the possibility that the blast may be linked to a nuclear test.
China was the last country to set off an above-ground nuclear test, in 1980. It carried out its last nuclear test in 1996 and has since observed a self-imposed moratorium on testing.
Yonhap quoted other unnamed officials as saying it was probably not an accident, although it also quoted one source in Washington as saying it was unlikely to have been a nuclear test. It quoted another source as saying it could be a forest fire.
Yonhap reported a mushroom cloud up to 2.5 miles in diameter was spotted after the blast in remote Ryanggang province in the country's far northeast near to known missile bases.
The New York Times reported in its Sunday editions the Bush administration had received recent intelligence reports that some experts believed could indicate North Korea was preparing to conduct its first nuclear weapons test explosion.
Train wagons exploded at the Ryongchon railway station on April 22, killing 170 and injuring an estimated 1,300. The blast was believed to have been caused by a train loaded with oil and chemicals hitting a power line. (Additional reporting by Arshad Mohammed in Washington and Isabel Reynolds in Tokyo).
did you even click on the link? It's a map of all seismic activity in Southeast Asia.
A large explosion occurred in the northern part of North Korea ... a South Korean news agency reported Sunday.
Not all segments of the media runs at the same speed, and not all segments of the media can watch every corner of the world, calm down. Plus, that's South Korea that reported about North Korea. As you'll recall, South Korea is the US's friend and North Korea is communist backed by China in the mid 50's. I'm sure North Korea doesn't want us to know about their capabilities because our President might go there looking for WMD's (which I desperately don't want, I think NK is a powder keg).
I'm sure intelligence agencies knew about it. However, it's not in their best interest to alert everyone to get everyone worked up.
You said yourself that large amounts of explosive materials can cause a mushroom cloud. The article states that there is a huge military missile and personel base in that area.
Was the train related explosion not similar, if only smaller, to this?
What reason would there be for a nuclear explosion?
Testing: The major effects of radiation are now known, and Korea don't have massive deserts to dispose of. Who would ever test above ground. _On_the_border_?
Attack: A single strike at one military installation for two countries that have a small land mass and have been on the brink of war and worse for decades on end?
Accident: It's possible. But it sure seems unlikely.
"First of all, no doubt its a nuke."
An extremely large explosion has occurred in Korea. I think everything else speculated is completely shrouded in doubt.
If you were North Kerea and you had just successfully tested a nuclear device would you tell the lunatick in washington?
The USGS FAQ on nuclear-seismic activity says that a small earth quake has the energy of abour 2000kilotons. If the NK are playing with fission they might reach 40-50 kilotons. The size of the explosion might fall of the bottom of that chart.
The fact that there are no sensors in north korea might be a factor. Also, india and pakistan were bragging about their nukes, NK might not be so open. And if the USGS has noticed something THEY might be quiet about it. They like rocks, not politics.
Bacardi + slashdot = negative karma.
Well, that's just great, but North Korea isn't in Southeast Asia.
But your source is nearly entirely American. If you read the Data Sources page, you'll see for yourself. Information can be silenced -- and it wouldn't be out of line with the direction the current administration is heading.
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
While I don't have a degree in geophysics, I wonder if the mushroom cloud was volcanic in nature? N. Korea *is* close enough to the ring of fire that it could, perhaps in a fluke, have experienced a volcanic eruption, resulting in both a crater, and a miles wide mushroom cloud.
If I remember correctly, Mt. St. Helens wasn't expected to erupt either, except by geophysicists, and in comparison was a relatively unprecedented event (being that the only volconoes to erupt in a US territory within recent history were in Hawaii).
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
is on archive.org.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
Who farted?
The problem is countries having nukes per say. It's unstable countires having nukes. Take the USSR as the prime example. When it fell who was in charge of the nukes? Much has been made of the availability of low-yeild nukes on the Russian black market. If unstable countries have nuclear arms, their is no telling where they might end up. Especially if the government of that country is ousted by a coup. And it's not just the US that has to worry about non-nation-states getting their hands on nukes, but is in fact a far more serious threat to the Eurasian peoples because it's easier to smuggle weapons through the poorer countries there to a major population center, or to a US friendly country.
Well, that's just great, but North Korea isn't in Southeast Asia.
Wars are Gods way of teaching Americans geography.
"The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire."
Yeah, 'cause we all know forests just spontainously explode like a bomb. Oh, and trees just cause pollution, good riddance.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Netcraft confirms: North Koreans are dying.
Sorry that first sentance should read "The problem ISN'T ..." guess that'll teach me to preview before I post...
The spike is at 16:10 UTC which would be 2:10 AM in Korea. The article says the explosion happened at 11:00 AM.
CNN is reporting that this was not a nuke blast. Read and decide for yourself.
If it is a nuclear test, George W. Bush just lost the election.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
I wish some politician back in the '80s had suggested we build some kind of "Star Wars" defense system. We could surely use it now.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If we host sentience in a defensive pod, it could survive the blast. The sentience may need to be set unconscious for awhile, but a neutron star or electric defense system in the pod could neutralize any type of nuke that exists now.
-I am an elective eunuch.
Bush's campaign is based on fear. "Vote for me because the wimpy democrat will get you killed". Between this, and the very god chance that bin Laden will be "apprehended" just before the debates, I am getting more and more anxious that monkey-face Dubya is going to win.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Don't you realize how advantageous it is to release this information on the anneversary of the twin towers attack?
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
Just because our government (the US) hasn't announced it, doesn't mean they don't know about it.
Our current (mis)Leader has a lot of reasons for not wanting to make a big deal of this. Most of them having to do with the upcoming election.
Proof of a NK bomb will make it crystal clear that he went after the Wrong rogue nation . And that his policy of refusing to participate in bi-lateral talks with North Korea was an abject failure.
That W went after the country "without" the weapons of mass destruction (WMD), instead of the country everyone knew had WMD will not do much for his re-election hopes..
For what it's worth, the Russians used to have some satellites capable of similar blast detection. Although I've know idea if any of them are still operating. Either way, this wont stay quite long, the Chinese will leak it when their radiation detectors spike.
Or more probably, the North Koreans will release the video footage for the PR.
I'm unhappy that the immediate reaction from the administration was to first make this an election issue.
/Hope the parent isn't a troll!
The Bush administration decided to on a particular strategy to deal with North Korea, and this is the result. I saw that strategy discussed in both positive and negative ways, but either way, it has left us in the current situation.
Question to Bush/Cheney: What are you going to do about it?
Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
Are we sure this waseen't causes by some North Korean boy scout trying to get an advanced weapnos badge?
I bet his shed is radioactive
This is VERY bad news indeed. This is one of those things that could start a World War. WWI was started with an assasination, image what one nuke could do. The North Koreans could use it, which honestly I doubt since Korea would be united agien by it, there would be no north. What could happen is since they are depirate for money is they could sell it to someone and then they use it. The other is that moron president of ours does his stupid "preemptive" war, though they dont have oil. Lets just hope Keary wins.
its approximately 10% of our troop strength. We also have committed many other resources other than just troops to iraq and bush just announced plans to WITHDRAW troops from korea and other places.
this presents two problems. While troops may not be the way to contain a nuclear power, political power is. When we remove our troops and then the n. koreans do this the US looks weak politically. Since most nations arent very happy with us right now anyway, this is a Bad Thing (tm).
the second problem is our resource commitment elsewhere. The U.S.'s primary strngth is not military, its economic and technological. our economy is not doing well, and what resources we do have to commit are commited elsewhere in a war that shouldnt have happened (at least not when it did)
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
Of course we have a choice:
Would you like to play a game?
>list games
Ball
Global Thermonuclear War
>play Global Thermonuclear War
How about a nice game of Ball?
>No, I would like to play Global Thermonuclear War.
Very well...
Seriously though, of course we have a choice. We didn't cave in to the USSR, I don't expect us to give a cowtow to N. Korea. Seriously, expect a carrier battle group in the Sea of Japan ASAP if there isn't one there already. Expect half of the U.S. Navy including a dozen submarines loaded with 60 ICBM's each sitting off the coast of North Korea very soon. Oh, we'll be playing "ball" all right.
My other first post is car post.
Still you. What, you think it's clever to say stupid stuff for a reaction?
On a related note, the closest article that the nytimes has about this right now (here) says
"President Bush and his top advisers have received intelligence reports in recent days describing a confusing series of actions by North Korea that some experts believe could indicate the country is preparing to conduct its first test explosion of a nuclear weapon, according to senior officials with access to the intelligence."
What kind of experts do they have? Cripes...
The mushroom cloud is not particular to the nuclear nature of such weapons, merely to their yield. Admittedly, 10+ Ktons of TNT is a lot of explosives to leave lying around. However, the site of the explosion is reported to be a missile base with a test range, so having that much conventional firepower around is conceivable-- EG, a large munitions dump explosion. Most sources are saying it probably wasn't nuclear. I wouldn't completely rule out a nuke yet, but it's still doubtful.
Damnit, why can't I find a web-enabled Geiger counter in .jp? Are they all too busy with their USB powered vibrators to do anything useful over there??? =)
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
2) From Cnn,
"A large cloud appeared over North Korea in satellite images several days ago, but a U.S. official told CNN it is "no big deal" and not the result of a nuclear explosion."
And therefore it must be true.
from your sig: Open Your Mind. Open Your Source.
Rather ironic that you advocate openess yet believe this closed source blurb at face value.
If you're a baby boomer, no big deal. You'll die of cancer.
If you're a Gen-X'er, you're probably so distracted and ADD'd you don't care, so it won't make a difference.
In either case, nobody will have enough time to ruminate the implications of being apathetic while you allowed the installation of a ruler who has effectively pissed off the rest of the world, like you cared; like you thought, that having a president who alienated 90% of the rest of the planet mattered.
We get what we deserve. Survival of the fittest.
...if the parent post had said a damn thing about the UN.
He didn't say the UN was doing a better job than the US, just that the US was doing a shitty job.
Since all you could do was change the subject, you're basically agreeing that he's right.
> it's been American military doctrine for decades that major wars
If stomping on a nation that's been ground down by over a decade of sanctions and bombing is now a "major war", that says just about all you need to know about the spare capacity of the US military these days...
check out this post in an earlier thread. This picture from Harvey Mudd (in LA, CA) shows that *something* happened last Thursday.
To be specific, the seismometer is on the HMC university campus, and the university is in Claremont, CA (check the site). Wouldn't there be a propegation delay between Korea and California? Could that delay compensate for the ~9-hour time difference?
To celebrate our Glorious Leaders day of triumph and victory as he continues to lead the world.
8) ??
9) Profit!
Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
Oh, for crying out loud! Everyone and his mom are speculating about "teh bomb". Consider the options in a rational manner, for once, please. Even if this is the /dot:
Possibility number 1: A nuclear explosion. If it was a nuclear explosion, remember that it happened close North Koreas's north eastern border with China. If that is the case, remember that the prevailing winds will blow the fallout either north or west, in which case the fallout will cross over into China, and you can bet your sweet apple pie that China will not take lightly to radioactive fallout from a neighbouring country, or the winds blow the fallout east in which case both Japan and Russia (Yes, George, Russia is just across the way over there) will raise living hell, or the winds blow the fallout south in which case South Korea gets to crap their collective pants. Either way, the international media will find out really fast about it.
2. It was an accident such as the one a few months ago, when a train laden with chemicals went up into the air. Given that NK is poor as hell and workplace safety not a major concern, this is the most likely cause. If this is the case, it is possible that it will take a long while until the media discover it.
3. It was a military accident at a missile site, where one exploding missile set off the rest, a la Chinese firecrackers. If this is the case, the NK's will probably try to keep it as secret as possible as it would be hugely embarrassing to the fuckers who routinely make huge boasts about their military and have this obsession with saving face.
Don't you think it's a bit of a problem if the stuff the VP says is so inflammatory that it's hard to tell what's an over the top troll and what's real?
According to an apparently unnamed US Official, it could have been a forest fire. A really, really big forest fire caused by a thermonuclear device. And I suppose that's not a crater, it's just a trick of the way the light reflects off the ground? Article at http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12/nkorea .blast/index.html/.
When I wish I either still had access to intelligence reports, or never did.
I don't have access to current reports, meaning I can't satisfy my curiosity about this days or weeks before the rest of you can, but having had access to reports in the past I can't throw in my two cents really without worry of inadvertantly saying something that can land me in prison.
You can have your dumb gold medal... Sheesh.
But how is this different then unstable people have guns? Frankly I think it's just a matter of scale. Crazy people can get guns crazy nations get nukes. Now if we wanted to take nukes away from just crazy natiosn then we'd have to establish and independent third party that has power over everyone (like the government has over citizens so that criminals in jail don't get guns). But the US has always resisted any body which would restrain or bind it.
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
You would have to have a lot of conventional explosif to get that. Though the 4-km measurement is certainly someone's guess, you can still be sure the cloud was quite large.
Yah, but don't only underground tests produce seismic activity? Since this explosion produced a mushroom cloud it wouldn't appear to be below ground.
Also, as far as I can tell seismic activity from sept 11 was only detected in the NE US. USGS monitoring is obviously a lot father away from North Korea than the monitoring devices in the US were from NYC.
AccountKiller
"One can shield ordinary radios and car ignition parts by wrapping them completely in aluminum foil, or any other form of Faraday cage."
So it works for other things besides making hats?
> and i'm sure he'll become more sane, have less weapons, and become less desperate as time goes on.
It's called "death".
Eventually, Kim Jong'll get ill, and croak. Eventually, so will the weird cult-of-personality nation he's crafted.
Every day we keep him relatively peaceful is a day closer to the inevitable fall of the regime through natural causes.
Damm, I wish I had mod points :)
John
I dream in binary.
From the BBC article: "A crater caused by the blast could be seen from a satellite, an unnamed official in Beijing was quoted by Yonhap as saying."
;)
Forest fires cause lots of damage, but generally they don't make huge craters visible from space.
Yay, a new cold war!
And you all laughed at me for building that fallout shelter all those years back? WELL WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!?! HUH?!
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
"It would be very wise for all nations to develop nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. The UN is unable to stop strong countries from attacking and invading smaller countries."
Heaven help us, if the Vatican takes your advice.
A nuclear accident, aside from being _worse_ than a bomb test from a radiation hazard point of view, would not leave a crater or a mushroom cloud. Generally nuke plants melt when they go FUBAR; an explosion requires inertial confinement of a supercritical fissionable mass, while a meltdown only requires that the fuel rods heat up past the melting point of the reactor vessel. In plain english, you have to _work_ to get an explosion. Even the fuckup at Chernobyl requires major human stupidity. Small explosions can happen in an out of control meltdown (this is ironically called "China Syndrom"), however the major danger is still from fallout and not the blast.
As for MAD, trust me that nuclear disarmament is a better choice than nuclear detterance. I would rather see the US, Israel, NK, China, Britain and anyone else who's got the bomb give it the fuck up. Arming everyone and expecting them to play nice is putting too much faith in common sense. Human nature being what it is, I'd rather we _not_ have the means to exterminate our species.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
but then some how it was removed. The story is still up via direct link.
t ml
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132129,00.h
Free Unix? Free Windows. http://www.reactos.com
My white papers are expired, but just off the top of my head, I'd put this explosion equivalent to about 100,000 pounds of Ammonium Nitrate. There's nothing here that suggests the explosion was connected to any moving device. That means the explosive mass could have been any size at all. Sprinkle on a little powered U235 for effect. Maybe a dash of polonium. Then start growling at everyone to back off. North Korea might have joined the club this week, but if I had to guess, I'd guess that they tried to fake it. Seismic profiles should tell the story.
Bush's Obfuscation Machine is supported by CNN and another other Big Media organization that merely reports crazy claims without any attempt at analysis. Yeah, sure, a mushroom cloud forest fire.
im too tired to read everything, but dose this mean there will be a sequil to my faviorite movei of all time? "dr. stranglove 2: how i lerned i was fucked, and lived in a damn mine shaft?" hey, i'll go see it.
"North Korea is the reason we went into Iraq" ? Talk about spin, where do you get this stuff?
You go on with the ridiculous suggestion that "everyone believed the WMD lies"?
There were only 2 intelligence agencies that actually believed the Iraqi's had WMD, the US and the UK.. And as we now know, nearly all of that was based on the lies and forgeries by members of Chalibi's Iraqi National Congress dissidents. In fact, MOST of the world's intelligence agencies thought Iraq had No WMD. You can exempt the US CIA, but even our own State Department was incredulous. Why? Because there was only a single source for all these intelligence lies, and all they had was verbal assurances. There were no photos, videos, or any kind of hard proof. Even newspapers try to find dual sources for their stories. The CIA never bothered.
Even Saddam's biggest enemies, the Israeli's were humming the "no WMD tune" until 9/11 of '01. Mossad had been keeping track of all industrial imports to Iraq, and told the US prior to 9/11 of '01 that no significant shipments of WMD components or duel use technology had been imported. Sure, the Israeli's tune changed after 9/11 when they saw the possibilities of getting rid of Saddam. But they knew the truth, and that truth was ignored as it conflicted with the goal of invading Iraq.
Because of this, most of the world's intelligence agencies saw right through this charade. Our CIA and the Brits were alone among the major players in believing Chalibi's crap. And I think a lot of that was due to expectations set by Bush administration. They told the CIA to find proof of WMD in Iraq, so the CIA found someone willing to say there was proof.
You should do some research for yourself. Not just parrot everything you hear from the right (or left) leaning press. Use your brain, don't be a lemming.
The U.S. government is saying it could be from a forest fire? Living in southern California, I was almost inside a forest fire last year. I don't remeber it causing any 2 mile wide mushroom clouds.
As you yourself said, 10,000 tons of TNT could do it. So why not? A lot easier to get 10,000 tons of TNT than 20kg of 80% U235. Acutally, based on the size of the cloud, I'd guess more like 1,000 tons of TNT. Or less. Maybe 100,000 pounds of anfo. The old US "nuclear simulator" used in Amry drills carried about 200 gal of explosives and napalm and managed a cloud 1 mile across when exploded at altitude. There's nothing here that requires nuclear.
All the GPS satellites and a few other to boot are equipped with what is called "Bhang meters" which can detect the very special two-peak light-signature of an atomic explosion.
No natural phenomena have ever set off the Bhangmeters mistakenly.
If this was a nuclear test-shot, the US government know about it by now.
The question is if they choose to ignore the raw data, just like they did on 22 September 1979 when the joint South African/Israel test shot were fired.
Poul-Henning Kamp -- FreeBSD since before it was called that...
If North Korean mutants take gold in every event, it was probably a nuclear explosion.
I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!
> One approach favoured continuation of the containment policy which worked so well with NK
This comparison is so false as to be deceptive and misleading.
North Korea was propped up and given technology by a superpowers (China). With the backing of a superpower, sanctions are unable to prevent technology transfer. Without this superpower backing, North Korea would have no nuclear capability, and would probably have collapsed.
Where's the superpower supporting Iraq? Who would have helped them gain nuclear technology? How would they have broken through sanctions to get the necessary knowledge and equipment to create nuclear weapons?
UN sanctions and UN weapons inspections successfully prevented Iraq from being a threat to the world for over a decade. There is no indication that UN sanctions and inspections would not have kept Iraq from being a threat for decades to come. To say that Iraq was even remotely similar to North Korea in terms of its ability to acquire nuclear technology is at best ignoring the facts, and at worst intentionally deceptive.
That you have NO idea what the fuck happened over there. You are sitting in front of your computer, relying on third or fourth hand stories of the event. So trying to declare that you know which is true and false, at this point, is pretty stupid. I would also note that CNN is a considerable more credible news source than Yahoo news.
So, what really happened? Well, I dunno, but neither do you. If you assume that it was a nuclear blast, you are taking that on faith. There is little in the way of second hand confirmation and you sure as hell have NO first hand information.
So while I'm not saying that CNN isn't wrong, please let's lay off the bashing until there is more information.
so what if its big enough to be noticed by a satilite, in the mid 90's, satilites could find were i lost my golf ball's! since then, they've been able to zoom into the one'square'meter area. so what, now they can find if some north korean kid has been throwin marbles in the sand? thouse craters are noticible when your looking at square meters....
Just heard on Art Bells show { Laughter goes here } that the news wires are stating its NOT a nuke that causes it.
I am wondering if it was another train explosing like they had a while back.
It is simply a matter of scale. A crazy with a gun can only kill as many people as he has ammuntion for (or gets killed himself) and causes no long term enviromental damage. A nuclear weapon on the other hand... I'm completely anti-gun control. However, nuclear weapons are just silly. There's no paradigm to compare them with. No nukes is good nukes, but they exist, and I'm much more comfortable with a "responsible" nation having them than some crackpot.
And BTW there is a third party to take nukes away from crazy nations. It's called NATO and the United Nations. Unfortunatly NATO has no back bone and NATO peace keepers are a big joke. Just ask a Rawandan, oh wait, never mind most of the ones that were alive during the 90s no longer are.
North Korea is one of the reasons why we went into Iraq
...
The reason you went to Iraq is threefold - oil, oil and oil. Does NK has it ? No, so
there's just not much we can do
Actually the Bush administration refused to meet with the North Koreans in Bi-Lateral talks. The North Koreans never wanted multi-lateral talks, and these talks were generally seen to be a complete failure.
Refusing to even meet 1 to 1 with the North Koreans will seem in hindsight, to be an exceedingly short sighted strategy if this happens to have been an nuclear bomb.
And to correct your "creative" history on this matter:
After the North Koreans broke their initial agreement, the Bush administration decried the Clinton plan. The Bush administration said they would never have agreed to a deal like the Clinton plan, one that provided fuel and build safe reactors for the North Koreans in return for decommissioning of their enrichment reactors.
Yet only a few months ago, it turns out the Bush administration was trying to work a very similar deal with North Korea. Continue building a safe nuke plant for them and giving them oil...
Pot, Kettle, Black
> I suggest you better check you facts before you post.
Yes, quite.
This is obviously neither.
Unlikely to have been a nuclear blast, since there was no correxponding seismic event reported.
US Population 294,000,000
World population 6,000,000,000
The current US administration has alienated the rest of the planet. At current population levels, if you're a US citizen, you need to be capable of immobilizing 21 foreign citizens per person.
Good luck.
"Whadda mean, Korea's in Southeast Asia?"
[clickety... BOOM]
"There's no Korea in Southeast Asia!"
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
fool.
US government doesn't like UN and NATO is in America's pocket. That won't do for the other nations. America would just ignore rulings against them. And the environmental damage wit Hydrogen bombs is neglible to comparison to normal nukes, would that make you sleep better? The concept is the same as the 2nd amendment as far as I can see. BTW how else would you propse the smaller nations keep the US in check without nukes?
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
We would known it fairly quickly by two means:
1. The DSPS satellites used to track infrared signatures from rocket launches would have detected the very strong and distinct IR emission from a nuclear explosion.
2. Radiation detectors downwind would be triggered from the point of explosion due to fallout particles.
Given that we didn't get that distince IR signature and there are no unusual radiation levels detected in South Korea, Japan, and Russia in the area around Vladivostok, it's very likely the explosion was caused by a muntions dump explosion or a munitions train exploding.
according to CNN
--- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
They're also getting some pretty reliable delivery technology going: http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw040802_1_ n.shtml
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
They will then proceed to level Seoul with entrenched artillery, killing (literally) millions of people and destroying the main city of an advanced, friendly, and economically-important nation.
That will make quite the point to everyone. However, being as the point they'll get will most likely be "the USA is a bunch of trigger-happy psychopaths who don't give a damn about causing millions of deaths in friendly countries", I'm not sure it's a point we actually want to make...
Not to mention that:
a) The Asian region will have an economic meltdown, crippling the world economy at a time when the US economy is already fragile.
b) China - nuclear-armed and fast becoming the world's other superpower - will be pissed
. c) North Korea's Special Forces - the largest in the world - will be only too happy to spread their knowledge, training, and manpower to anti-US terrorist groups.
d) North Korea will suddenly be much more open to the idea of sharing its known nuclear capability with anti-US terrorist groups.
Do you really think that's such a good idea?
"The explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county blasted a crater big enough to be noticed by a satellite, the source said.'"
;)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they have satellite imaging that can read license plates now? If not that, they've got it down to the meter. (Teraserver anyone?)
I guess some phrases don't pack the explosive power they once did.
I am personally unconvinced that this was a nuclear explosion. It might have been, but evidence is handy for making such declarations. Any number of things can create a large mushroom cloud and crater.
If it was a nuke, you better believe that the whole of the Far East and Pacific Rim is going to be dusting off those plans for assembling nuclear weapons. China was bad enough, but North Korea? The Japanese and Taiwanese would have to be stupid not to start building a nuclear deterrent. Hell, even the Aussies and Indonesians would probably start thinking about doing so.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
Nope no Nuclear programs, couldn't possible be. Nope not at all, a large mushroom cloud and a 2 mile blast radious with compression dammage isn't nukes nope nothing to see folks....Oh wait THAT mushroom cloud!
Here ya go kids:
l le ction=prelinger&collectionid=19069
http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?co
Remember to cover your neck, or else you'll get a "really bad sunburn".
1. NK is a fucking hell hole.
.. "Fiat justitia ruat caelum."
2. Their people are starving to death while they pay for a 1 million man army.
3. They have kidnapped Japanese citizens.
4. They broke their deal with the US and keep their nuke program going.
You do not deal with evil. You kill it. Remember the "Peace in our time PM from England" and his great deal with Hitler.
It is about time the world gets off of their "we hate the USA becasue they are the biggest" ass and realize that:
1. They can talk shit becuase their freedoms have been protected by the American taxes for 50 year.
2. Just because you are nice to the bag guys they will not be nice to you (ie. France and is kidnapped people - hell they are SUPRISED that radical religious nuts would attack them, their friends)
3. That while GW is not the smartest person in the world he has some idea of right and wrong and it is a black and white issue!
It is time to:
1. Level NK. Nuke them be done with it.
2. Level Faluja and be done with it. It is the only thing these people understand. They deserved Sadam.
3. Send troops to Dafur and save the inocent people and shoot the rapist and murders.
4. Get the Israelis to leave the West Bank and Gaza. Period. And put 3rd party troops (Swiss?) into Jerusalem and force them to share the city. Hell, the Mohammed was once saved and protect in battle by one of his friends and advisers a Rabbi (who was killed)! This whole thing is fucking dumb.
5. Kick out all the dictators because it the the right thing to do, not because of the the oil or anything else.
6. Pull our troop out of Europe and leave NATO and let them take care of themselves!
And just because everyone is going to talk shit:
1. I am an American.
2. I was in the military and saw combat. I was sick. I hope my children never have to do the same.
3. I have lived overseas (in the EU and Saudi Arabia) and can name the leaders of the EU and talk about the political parties in each state.
4. My father is from Pakistan. I have read the Koran - in Urdu and Arabic.
At the end of the day
If we hadn't invaded Iraq, and 10 years from now it became a horrible nuclear power, the Michael Moores of the world would be blaming the American leadership for not doing anything and letting people suffer under Saddam's regime. When we'd be dealing with him in a full-out war, they'd be saying "It's America's fault they're such a major power right now. Where were we 10 years ago when he was just a minor threat who could have easily been removed?"
In contrast, pre-emptively remove the threat, and suddenly America is still evil. No matter what we do, it won't matter because America is a #1 superpower, and that means jealousy, envy, and just pure hatred. It's just a fact of the world.
North Korea's current power, as you pointed out, is just an illustration of what happens when you sit back passively like the UN and just let things sort them out with "sanctions." Europe doesn't want to sully its pastry fingers with removing a frightening regime. America is often an intended scapegoat for these things--bitch that they're actually *gasp* going to war, but sit back and be relieved that they did.
Just look at Germany in the buildup to World War II. After the attack from Japan, America was no longer going to sit around and play pacifist isolationist to the world. It's too dangerous. And look at all the countries who rolled over for the Germans and yet still bitch about the invasion of Iraq. Of course there are negative aspects to the war, but, again, it's WAR. It wasn't even a particularly nasty one compared to the real wars of history. And no matter how hard some people try, it's *not* another Vietnam--Vietnam was an entire issue of its own with regard to a government that was not properly supporting its military operation.
P.S. Whoever modded you "Flamebait" is a loser. If you disagree with someone, reply and explain why. Don't censor them by knocking them down.
More maps of Korea
North Korea is a monster made by her neighbors:
Accurately estimating the size of a cloud by eye is no easy feat and, as others have already pointed out, non-nuclear weapons can also make mushroom clouds -- either large conventional explosions or smaller explosions that take place inside tubes or silos
South Korea is building a new capital city. Supposedly this is because of overcrowding, but the new capital is farther south... out of artillery range of North Korea.
The explosion supposedly occured near a missile field. It's possible the North Koreans tried to test-fire a missile for their 56th anniversary and it blew up in the silo.
Uh.. yeah.. mod parent UP...
if your preferred source of news is AOL
You can tell if it's a nuke or not by Japan's response. You know Japan has a few giant robots just itching to run around North Korea... and I'll bet there's less concern there about whether or not Seoul is in artillery range of the North.
I love all this news about nukes in the states. Can we really say, "how dare they develop nukes!" When we in the US have the largest aresenal in the world. I guess if I were in living in switzerland or fiji or some other country with out nukes (of course I am not sure if this is a true statement about said countries) i would have every right as a member of the human race to get pissed about someone trying to build nukes or thwarting other countries with them. But in the US if you wanna get mad about other people having nukes without taking a long hard look at our own country then thats just plain old hypocracy. I can hardly blame some of these other countries for try to get these things. And there isn't a single nation that develops these things for any reason other than keeping up with jones-skis. The simple fact that these things exsist in the first place is too scary. But why should we distrust North Korea over, say, england? Because their Commie? It shouldn't be because its an unstable government like Kazikstan(who has plenty of nukes), NK been doing its thing for quite some time now. Even if NK could be a menace to South Korea is that reason for me to fear for my life? The nuke scare is getting old. Not that it isn't real but its not likely and its not something that invading NK is going to fix. You can't change the laws of physics and you can't blame a country from trying to keep its enemies at bay especially if your country is Nuclear arse-i-nal # 1. You can't ever be completely safe but for us in america there is one thing that should make you feel better: As long as other countries have nukes then thats too bad they got nukes, but can they deliver? None of these "Axis of Evil" nations have the means to get the nuke to our door step without smuggling it in. There aren't any countries friendly enough to tell you how to make an ICBM. Besides its not the countries with nukes that scare me, its the people with nukes. We can wish these things were never developed or we can whish the laws of physics were a bit different. So for those that believe in magic elves or maybe even jesus, the next time your talking to god ga ahead and let him know how you feel, "Way to screw things up...Again! dumbass!" But otherwise its just another intangible risk that you only give a crap about when its in the news. I wasn't thinking about nukes yesterday, and I probably wont give em a second thought tomorrow. Or maybe I;ll just be thinking how nice it would be to have one of my own. That way, no one would mess with me. And it would be a nice thing to bring out at parties
The BBC Reports:
The North Korean authorities have said the massive blast was the result of an "electrical contact caused by carelessness".
It appears two railway wagons carrying dynamite exploded after getting snagged on overhead electric cables.
I don't know about you but I've never seen dynamite mushroom into a cloud several miles in diameter.
-illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
I'd like to draw everybody's attention to the following website: http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/NorthKorea/main.as p. That pretty much clearly defines Dubya's feel for the subject.
I like suggestions, but I don't like contributing towards them.
except that Japan has a pacifist constitution that bars them from taking such actions and besides they don't have much of a military. Just sending a small number of peace keepers to Iraq to do humanitarian work causes a hage debate there.
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
Erm, I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think any country should use ANY kind of WMDs. Nuke, chemical or biological. However, this isn't going to happen. I'd much rather an ally have them than a nation that is openly hostile to the US.
I don't know what country you live in, maybe it's one that has no enemies and thats why your so hot for everyone to have nukes, but sitting here, with as much hate as a good portion of the world feels against the US, I'm not comfortable with nations like North Korea having nuclear weapons.
So, whom did NATO fight during WWII?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Even today, I still get hard when I think back to the magical moments of blowing my load of semen all over that hot little jailbat. Did she tell you about the time I made her eat a piece of my shit, then I shoved her face into my shit-encrusted ass? God damn, she was crying like a little bitch but I know she enjoyed it. She looked so cute with my greenish shit covering her face. I'm beating off right now just thinking about it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/international/as ia/12nuke.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/in ternational/asia/12nuke.html>
It's only Strong Bad poking Pom Pom with a pin.
That's todays data.
TFA said it happened on the Thurs 9th.
check out the data for the 9th: NCSN - Drum Recorders
something happened at 10:30 UTC on the 9th.
several recorders picked it up in CA.
rho
. . .and they do not cause craters visible from space.
.in the forest.
Oh yeah, there is no confirmation that there is a "crater." That claim is from an unconfirmed source, and forest fires create "craters". .
Ya know, big black hole in the trees visible from space?
KFG
> weapons against the PRK to destroy every military installation, followed by a rapid invasion to secure
> the countryside and assure there can be no belated retaliation.
Are you sure?
First, a few things to consider:
a) Seoul would be flattened, killing millions of civilians.
- How do you think the rest of the world would view us if we caused the death of millions of another country's civilians just because we're concerned about a possible future threat?
- How many people would curtail their business with the US as much as possible because of this ruthless disregard for other nations, throwing the most massive possible brakes on our economy?
- How many people would be tempted to turn a blind eye towards anti-US terrorism, or even donate money towards curbing a sociopathic superpower?
- How angry would China - the emerging other superpower - be that we'd nuked right beside their country? How likely would technology and materiel from China "accidentally" be "stolen" by anti-US terrorists?
b) North Korea has the largest Special Forces contingent in the world, with over 100,000 well-trained soldiers.
- With over a dozen tunnels dug to well behind the DMZ (see same link), how much of South Korea would remain intact?
- With that many guerrilla-trained fighters in highly mountainous terrain, how many tens of thousands of Americans would die invading and occupying the area?
- How many thousands of those Special Forces soldiers would lend their training and personal skills to anti-US terrorist groups?
- We saw the fear a single, poorly-trained pair could create around DC with the "sniper" killings; what about hundreds of Special Forces-trained infiltrators conducting operations inside the USA months or years later?
c) North Korea has nuclear capability
- How many American soldiers would die when the few nukes that NK has were used against concentrations of US forces?
- How many American civilians would die when NK nukes were given to anti-US terrorist groups?
- How many American civilians would die when NK nuclear technology and knowledge was shared with anti-US terrorist groups?
> The time to destroy an enemy is before they are strong enough to hurt.
It's far, FAR too late for that.
As a counter-weight to the continual cries of "diplomacy is useless!", consider the Cold War. The USA and the USSR didn't fight each other; all of their contact was (essentially) diplomacy. Yet the situation remained (relatively) peaceful, and eventually the danger went away.
Diplomacy clearly can work. We just need to realize that there's a world of options between appeasement and all-out war. This ain't a black-and-white issue, and you can't make a black-or-white choice and expect a good outcome.
There's no evidence it's nuclear, yet (although there's no proof it isn't); it might be a bigger-than-last-train fuckup. We've got a big kaboom, not the radiation, so Chernobyl's the wrong analogy.
And any arguments about mad countries that can be made can apply to mad citizens with AK-47s.
Oh? Try applying this analogy:
The nations in question are not so much insane, as criminal. Their leaders may be another story, but that's a seperate worry.//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Are you ready to be drafted to fight a couple more wars for "cowboy diplomacy?"
No, that's why I wouldn't vote for Kerry - after all, it's only Democrats saying we might have to have one. Give them enough power and perhaps they'll do so.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
How large of a mushroom cloud would the Minor Scale Event produce? It generated an eight kiloton explosion using ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. The dust cloud went up 15,000 feet (about three miles).
It is interesting to note the report doesn't say anything about the sound of an explosion.
Maybe this is a meteor strike, like the one in Tungusta, Russia in 1908?
According to this article, the Tungusta blast was around 40 megatons. The Hiroshima bomb was only 13 kilotons.
I'm not saying this is a meteor strike, but I am saying we should keep in mind that there are other explanations. Let's wait until we see some radiation readings before we reach a conclusion.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
..it's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. ;)
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- A large cloud that appeared over North Korea in satellite images several days ago was not the result of a nuclear explosion, according to a U.S. official.
r ea .blast/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12/nko
The BBC has the story too
A voice spake from the darkness and said unto me "Smile, things could be worse." So I smiled and lo, things bec
(not the same as the other NY Times article)
Big Blast, Mushroom Cloud Reported in N.Korea
By REUTERS
Published: September 12, 2004
Filed at 0:08 a.m. ET
SEOUL (Reuters) - A huge explosion rocked North Korea near the border with China three days ago, producing a mushroom cloud that sparked speculation that Pyongyang might have tested an atomic weapon, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday.
The South Korean agency said the blast on Thursday in Kimhyungjik county in Ryanggang province appeared much worse than a train explosion that killed at least 170 people in April. It quoted some sources as saying the latest blast was unlikely to have been a nuclear test.
Thursday was the 56th anniversary of North Korea's founding. The reclusive communist state often stages extravaganzas and big events to mark important anniversaries.
South Korean intelligence officials said they were monitoring the news, but declined detailed comment on the reports, which were based on ``informed sources'' in Beijing and in Seoul.
The reports surfaced as South Korea, Japan, China, Russia and the United States were seeking to persuade North Korea to return to the negotiating table to discuss its nuclear weapons ambitions. The North, which threatened at earlier talks to test an atomic bomb, has said it doubts more negotiations will help.
``There were rumors that the explosion was much bigger than the one at Ryongchon train station and the United States is showing a big interest as the blast was seen from satellites,'' Yonhap quoted an unnamed source in Beijing as saying.
The cause had yet to be determined but the source said Washington was not ruling out the possibility that the blast may be linked to a nuclear test.
Yonhap quoted other unnamed officials as saying it was probably not an accident, although it also quoted one source in Washington as saying it was unlikely to have been a nuclear test. It quoted another source as saying it could be a forest fire.
Yonhap reported a mushroom cloud up to 2.5 miles in diameter was spotted after the blast in remote Ryanggang province in the country's far northeast near to known missile bases.
The New York Times reported in its Sunday editions the Bush administration had received recent intelligence reports that some experts believed could indicate North Korea was preparing to conduct its first nuclear weapons test explosion.
South Korean government officials were not immediately available for comment.
Train wagons exploded at the Ryongchon railway station on April 22, killing 170 and injuring an estimated 1,300. The blast was believed to have been caused by a train loaded with oil and chemicals hitting a power line.
If you and yours lived only 50 miles from the DMZ, I don't think you'd be spouting such nonsense.
As the poster above suggested, any move by the US would be met with decimation of the South Korean capital.
The North Koreans have enough artillery and incendiary weapons to make Seoul look like post WWII Dresden. Neither the US nor the South Koreans have enough weapons to destroy all those artillery positions before they've done their work. Yes, the US would eventually win. But it would take at least 1 to 3 months to fight North Korea to a standstill. Perhaps longer, as most of our forces are committed elsewhere.
You may be able to accept a few hundred thousand South Korean civilian casualties and the reduction of their capital to rubble. But it shouldn't come as a surprise that the South Koreans are not so anxious to risk that possibility. And that's just the conventional weapon threat. If the North managed to lob a single nuclear device towards the south, the casualties could run to millions.
I suggest you do your tough talking when it's the lives of your family on the line. In this case, the South Korean's have every right to drive the direction of these negotiations. It's their families only 50 miles away from the DMZ, not yours or mine.
This CNN article seems to say the US doesnt believe it was a nuke.
WRT to your sig.. you realize we live in a republic not a democracy, right?
Look at the current Iraq. You will know what you talk is totally nonsense. If you think US can invade NK without thousands of casualities, you are idiot. If you think you can solve this complex issue by military force, you are stupid evil. US is only one nation in the world, which is unfortunately lead by a gang of evil right now.
I don't think you need anything like that. What you need are easy to make, easy to transport, easy to set off smaller bombs. Look at how much America is terrorized with just three airplanes. Imagine if some chemical was released in a NY subway or a small tactical nuke was exploded in Washington DC. Imagine the kind of economic damage a well placed EMP weapon would cause if it got let go in redmond.
You can cresh countries with fear and cause massive economic damage using very little materials and money as long as you are creative and have insight into the psyche of your enemy.
evil is as evil does
Sorry, the blast would have happened at midnight(16hoursUT + +9timezone(seoul) = 24!!!) The next question is: is "3 days ago" on that chart the 8th or the 9th??? Either at the very beginning or the end of the day...
The 9 minutes is an effect of teleseismic wave delay(Don't ask me, my wife is the geologist!) She quoted 20km/sec, Seoul is roughly 10,000km so thats ~8.5 minutes of delay...
Basically if that bump on the graph is from North Korea: It happened right at midnight!!!
Before commenting on anything of this nature please read Noam Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival" and "The Two Koreas" by Don Oberdorfer.
There is so much history behind this conflict that one can not begin to decipher the likelihood nor the implications of something like a successful nuclear test.
North Korea has always boasted of any type of military advantages. If they had nuclear capabilities at this point they would have announced it themselves. Becoming a nuclear power is something that PRK would use as a bargaining chip at the table however tactically it would not help them win a war with S Korea. the fallout from a blast would affect them as well as ruining the land they wanted to conquer. PRK has always flapped their wings and pretended to be bigger then they are.
I don't think China will react very well when they'll see a huge number of nuclear warheads going in their direction. And even if for some miraculous reason they understand and believe that the warheads are not going to China I don't think they will react very well to the fact that part of their population could die from the nuclear fallout coming from their neighbors and I don't think they will see from a very enthusiastic eye the fact that a military force is wiping out north Korea and positioning itself directly on their border. At least last time it happened they didn't stay there just watching.
Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
Osama + pals already believe that their culture has been totally defeated by western imperialist jewish capitalism. So anything you give him is a victory of sorts, even if its a nuke right in downtown mecca. Too bad that dummies like you and bush are more than happy to provide.
this isn't meaningless pro-linux/microsoft-bashing wise-attempt-banter, this is real news that is being handled by real news services, dipwit.
Map of the region is here:
9 /200409120002.html/
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/20040
Quoted from their website:
Massive Explosion Takes Place Near Sino-Korean Border
A Chinese source familiar with North Korea revealed Sunday that a major explosion took place Thursday in Kim Hyong-jik County, Ryanggang Province.
The source said, "I know there was an extremely large explosion in Kim Hyong-jik County, which is near the Sino-Korean border, on Sept. 9, North Korea's foundation day."
He added, "I heard talk that the explosion was even bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident... Evidence of the explosion was detected by satellite, and I understand the U.S. and other surrounding nations are paying attention to the incident."
In relation to this, another source connected to North Korea said, "I heard rumors of a large explosion taking place in North Korea's Ryanggang Province, which is close to the border with China."
An official from a certain surrounding nation who resides in Beijing said, "There is a rumor that a large explosion took place in Ryanggang Province, and interested nations are working to uncover the exact scale and cause of the explosion."
Kim Hyong-jik Country, where the explosion is known to have taken place. is across the Yalu River from Jilin Province, China, and South Korean intelligence authorities understand that a base for Daepodong 1 and 2 missiles was located at the town of Yongjo-ri, in a mountainous region of the province.
Those files have been slashdotted... anyone get originals?
Does it go on forever?
If it was a nuke, what about the radiation dust. I read that is was near the chinese border; wouldn't the chinese get irradiated? Isn't that enough of a reason for China to go to war?
snip--"SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- A large cloud that appeared over North Korea in satellite images several days ago was not the result of a nuclear explosion, according to a U.S. official."--snip
Does this 'official' have a name maybe?
snip--"The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire.
South Korea's Unification Minister Chung Dong-yong said the government was aware of the reports and is checking them."
"I have no information about the size of the damage of the explosion," he said on Sunday, according to Yonhap."--snip
Do many forest fires explode? Was it or wasn't it an explosion?
snip--"None of North Korea's known nuclear sites are in the country's northernmost provinces."--snip
Ok so I don't run a country, but this seems like all the more reason to test somewhere north right?
snip--"Yonhap reported the explosion happened in Yanggang province along the Chinese border, the site of Yongjori Missile Base -- a large facility with an underground missile firing range."--snip
Was it an unintentional detonation? Oops?
All in all this article seems like a rehash of the slop that's appearing in syndication all over news sites but with the words "not nuke" added to the headline. I doubt we'll be given much more information for a few days at least. Think about what it was like watching on 9/11, the 'working theories' changed minute to minute and with the channel you were watching them on...
Last week, I could easily see my swimming pool in satellite photos that are publicly available on the Internet. That the crater is big enough to be seen with a satellite really isn't significant.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
I kindly refer you to this and this
GW Bush keeps talking about how Saddam Hussein was going to kill us all, and everyone but him knew he was re-starting the wrong War.
"I don't want the smoking gun to be a Mushroom Cloud" --George W Bush
Well, glad to hear we attacked a country without any nuclear weapons, commiting all our forces to that fight, while a genuine threat was ramping-up an actual WMD program... One that actually does threaten the US.
Three cheers for George W Bush.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Today's satellite have enough resolution to read the numberplates on a car. How is being able to see the crater a measure for how big the blast was?
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
Nice Site no matter what...
Here is a map showing the location:
9 /200409120002.html/
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/20040
Massive Explosion Takes Place Near Sino-Korean Border
A Chinese source familiar with North Korea revealed Sunday that a major explosion took place Thursday in Kim Hyong-jik County, Ryanggang Province.
The source said, "I know there was an extremely large explosion in Kim Hyong-jik County, which is near the Sino-Korean border, on Sept. 9, North Korea's foundation day."
He added, "I heard talk that the explosion was even bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident... Evidence of the explosion was detected by satellite, and I understand the U.S. and other surrounding nations are paying attention to the incident."
In relation to this, another source connected to North Korea said, "I heard rumors of a large explosion taking place in North Korea's Ryanggang Province, which is close to the border with China."
An official from a certain surrounding nation who resides in Beijing said, "There is a rumor that a large explosion took place in Ryanggang Province, and interested nations are working to uncover the exact scale and cause of the explosion."
Kim Hyong-jik Country, where the explosion is known to have taken place. is across the Yalu River from Jilin Province, China, and South Korean intelligence authorities understand that a base for Daepodong 1 and 2 missiles was located at the town of Yongjo-ri, in a mountainous region of the province.
(englishnews@chosun.com )
I don't know what country you live in, maybe it's one that has no enemies and thats why your so hot for everyone to have nukes, but sitting here, with as much hate as a good portion of the world feels against the US, I'm not comfortable with nations like North Korea having nuclear weapons. Canada. Frankly, the the only country I worry about attacking US *is* the United States- like mentioned in Fallout. We have tons of natural resources and littles defence but pesky environmental legislation. It's like living inside an unguarded picnic basket. Of course everyone would rather have no nukes (or guns for that matter in my case...) and definitely would rather be dominant, you gotta admit if you weren't in the US you'd be worried about the US and wished you had nukes or at least someone did to challenge their superiority. Frankly, I think the US cutting it's "defence" (since most of it goes for attacking rather than defending "pre-empt" my ass..) it would do a lot to diffuse global tension... not likely but we can dream can't we?
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Oh, and by the way: peace be with you. I found you interesting. Take care.
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Except for the issue of women in the draft (which Rep. Rangel included in the proposed bill to make it even more controversial), how has this changed from previous years? Are they really preparing for a "new national draft", or are you just saying so because you read the SSS's Annual Performance Plan? What exactly is it in the Performance Plan (and not Rangel's bill) that supports your claim?
Another misleading statement. There haven't been college deferments since 1971. The only deferment possible is until the end of the college semester. Here's a link to the report in question. There was absolutely no mention of a resumption of the draft in the report. Where exactly, could you point out, should I read between the lines?Who the heck modded that insightful? It's funny, not serious.
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
Is that like Kazaa?
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
It's kind of funny that it took the same amount of time for Bush to let people know "they suspected something like this" around the same time the news sources find out about it. I've been reading 1984, doublethink anyone?
Youre post was so rife with disinformation I had to reply.
>The many thousands of Kurds and Iraqi Shi'ites gassed during Bush I and Clinton
The gassing of the Kurds happened in 1988, before Gulf War I and Clinton. Also, remember 1988, Saddam was friend and lover of all things US! I have photos of Rumsfeld shaking his hand if you want one.
>Actually, we don't know that, since we never had any confirmation that the reactors they were actually using for weapons research were ever "sealed" to begin with.
Its common accepted fact that those were REAL UN seals, sealing REAL URANIUM.
>The notion that they developed such a program in three years is laughable.
They escalated to a controlled threat under clinton to launching test missiles over Japan under Bush, while laughing at the US. You tell me whose foreign policy made more sense. They can hit Alaska and possibly California now.
They simply took advantage of the Bush admin's incompetence and focus on oil rich nations.
>Actually, most nations believed that the Iraqis still had WMDs
This stuff that has been debunked before the war even started. UN, Scott Ritter, Blix's reports, Saddam's son in law, etc. On top of it Powell using discredited info at the UN told the world this was a sham war. Cherry-picking reports with huge cavaets and presenting them to the public Cheney style does not a WMD threat make.
Please, tune into Fox News tonight and tomorrow for better talking points.
so would you rather I write "cant have a republic if people dont vote?"
Location of Mushroom - - Map Here - probably better than what CNN can tell you.
My guess is that it isn't a forest fire.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/20040
Old Sat pictures - not really of the explosion site.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/facility/nodon
A little history - In 1994 Clinton sent Carter to negotiate a treaty with North Korea. The North Koreans agreed not to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars of aid in the form of food and oil, and assistance in developing a "peaceful" nuclear program. The North Koreans then used their "peaceful" nuclear program with assistance from Abdul Qadeer Khan from Pakistan to develop their own nukes thus secretly breaking their agreement. North Korea also has an active missile programs and has conducted "test firings" of multi-stage missiles - shooting them over Japan. Japan is not very happy about this.
...) ...".
The U.S. with U.N. backing (the Soviet Union's UN ambassador had walked out - thus avoiding a veto) fought a war with the North Koreans in the 1950's. The war ended with an armistice in 1953 - not a peace treaty. North Korea has a 1.1 million man army out of a population of 22 million. They spend about 23% of their GDP on the military. The South Korean capital - Seoul is within easy artillery range of the North Korean border, and the North Koreans are believed to have a lot of hidden artillery in bunkers on the border. In the event of war, a lot of civilians in South Korea would die quickly. Finally, North Korea's leader Kim Jong-il is a wacko. While his people starve, he imports large quantities of large items for himself (he favors Hennessy cognac). He's had Japanese citizens kidnapped to teach the Japanese language to North Koreans spies . He's a movie nut (owns 20,000 films) and kidnapped a South Korean movie director to make films about himself.
China is North Korea's largest trade partner and patron. However, with China's economic boom - China now trades far more with South Korea, Japan, and the U.S. Nevertheless, China is still wary of Japan - remembering the horrors inflicted on China by the Japaneses during WWII. Since the war, Japan has become an economic rather than military power, and it's pacifistic constitution (written by the US) ensures that it will not again become a threat to it's neighbors.
A nuclear North Korea threatens the balance in the region. It is not in the interest of China for South Korea to develop it's own nukes. It is not in the interest of anyone for the Japanese to develop nukes to counter the threat of nuclear armed missiles from North Korea. China's real nightmare - is if the region starts a nuclear arms race and Taiwan goes nuclear.
So, the choices are as follows:
1) Cut a deal similar to the 1994 Carter deal that the North Koreans violated (fool me once
2) Attack North Korea and risk immediate massive civilian casualties in South Korea.
3) Drag China into the negotiations with North Korea and convince them to "curb your dog".
4) Close our eyes, put our fingers in our ears and shout "La La La La La
Personally, I think the only viable answer is number three - and that's what we're doing.
[Insert pithy quote here]
...
"I have no information about the size of the damage of the explosion," he said on Sunday, according to Yonhap.
One offering an explanation that suggests a forest fire( which implies NO explosion to register on sensors, and another saying saying they have no information about the explosion (impliing that there was a known image). Veeerrryyy Interesting
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Could the explosion have been caused by a meteor or comet? I admit that extraterrestrial sources of the event are improbable. However a smaller-scale version of the Tunguska event could explain the mushroom cloud, the forest fire, and a crater. If the meteoroid's trajectory remained mainly over the Pacific Ocean or even Siberia, it may not have been seen by many people.
Of course, the most likely explanation is that a Goa'uld Mothership crashed on Earth again. ;-)
It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do.
- Jerome Klapka Jerome
Here's the graph from Japans closest station2004/09/08:g i-bin/prev.pl?plot-t ype=1day&station=IZH&comp=LHZ&time=2004090 800
http://www.fnet.bosai.go.jp/c
Forgive my typo about 16hours... it is clearly 15hours UT
They're as subtle as a tactical nuke.
http://community.webshots.com/album/22241403vBWOPj pTfB
Looks like a mushroom shaped cloud caused by a forest fire to me. Layman/Common sense to the rescue!
he imports large quantities of large items
that should be
he imports large quantities of luxury items
[Insert pithy quote here]
I hate my isp, so slashdot me!
jesus CHRIST, what is wrong with the mods? this is anything but 'insightful'-if anything, its troll.
The Braying and Neighing of Barnyard Animals Follows.
Please let me know as soon as Iraq becomes as democracy with a government friendly towards the US. Can't wait to see it happen.
= 53 57
Done.
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key
If you hadn't known, most city and regional governments are already elected, and very friendly to the US. I'm not saying all the cities are democratic, but the grand majority of them are.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
HOLD YER HORSES!!! Reuters is now backpeddling a bit... http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml? type=topNews&storyID=581649§ion=news
Why hasn't the US invaded N. Korea yet? I mean had you lot seen even the tiniest cloud in Iraq a few years ago you'd've nuked the place .. so what's different now? Or are we afraid of N. Korea's big bad army of retards?
pictures speak a 1000 words
ex 1
ex 2
you can find 100's of recountings of forest fires that have mushroom clouds
Well, that's just great, but North Korea isn't in Southeast Asia.
Really? Where'd they move to?
Actually, I suspect that this admin did NOT think about N.K. Right now, we are maxed out with troops deployed on 2 fronts, about 11K in Afghanastan and about 140K in Iraq. It is known that we will have to increase the troops in Iraq to about 160-180K in order to control it. Well since we did not get the job done, Afghanastan is slowly falling back under control of Al Qaeda. We are about to step up the numbers of troops in Afghanastan in a big way (I suspect that is why the draft board is being set back up). The problem is that afghanastan had a bigger landmass( also more difficult terrarain) and higher population than Iraq. IOW, we need more troops than is currently in Iraq. It is probably for this reason why we are taking troops out of other countries. But one of the countries is S.K., right at a time where N.K. has obviously aquired a nuke (I am guessing on monday, that we will hear all about it). This implies that the admin did not give NK a second thought when making decisions to invade Iraq.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
But I knew my pointy tin foil hat would come in handy!
It is the right and duty of the North Korean government to build nuclear weapons. For christ's sake, we have called them a rogue state, listed them as part of the "Axis of Evil". Do you expect them to just sit there and wait for us to march in? I fully support their right to build weapons to defend themselves. Given that we have decide that pre-emptive war is OK, I fully support their right to Nuke the U.S. as a pre-emptive move. Wake up people! We have opened up a pandora's box with our pre-emptive doctorine and soon every country in the world will be pointing nukes at us. Good for them I say. Maybe some real threats as opposed to have-been dictators will make the idiotic American public wake up and start asking why our foreign policy leads to so much anti-Americanism.
I know nothing of South Korea, their politics, whatever, but why would you choose to rebuild a city that would be targetted by thousands of artillery pieces? Couldn't they have, I don't know, maybe moved a little ways back from the front lines?
The South Korean people riot and protest our presence there, even after we lost thousands of men securing their right to do so. I say we pull our troops out, deal with them with American interests at the fore, and let South Korea defend itself.
Obviously you don't...I lived there for several years. You don't pick up and move a major city that's existed for decades. The protests you've seen on TV aren't much more than fodder for the news media. The older generation Koreans, who remember, tend to support the U.S. presence. But you do get ugly situations, such as the children who were accidentally killed by an army vehicle (kids do play in the street there, and the roads are frequently way too narrow), and folks don't get the facts before passing judgement...kinda just like suggesting that the U.S. should pull out...DOH!
Just another day in Paradise
There are different levels of directness of knowledge. The closer to something you are, the more direct your knowledge is.
If you witness something happening, you have first hand knowledge of the event. If you then tell a friend, he has second hand knowledge, from a primary source. If he publishes it on the Internet, people reading it have theird hand knowledge from a secondary source.
Now in this case you are talking fourth hand information. Yahoo news is claiming that the AP wire stated that a South Korean agency reported that an unidentified source said there was a "huge blast" in North Korea. This is NOT direct or primary information.
This is not something you want to hang your hat on. North Korea maintains a total news blackout except what the state run media wishes to report, which is nothing but propaganda. So information such as this does not come from them. So some unidentified source or sources claims there was an explosion in North Korea that might be consistant with a nuclear bomb to a South Korean news agency.
Well this here is not what one would call an unbaised orginaziation. SK has every reason to be afraid of NK, and news agencies across the world love to report negitive news. So they do so.
Well, the AP wire picks up more or less all stories reported by members. I used to work at a paper and the amount of information that came off the wire was staggering. It wasn't all gold plated and copper bottomed, just what they were getting currently. Revisions and updates were constant. A writer at the AP then did up a story on this, which if you read is quite uncertian as to what went on and cites many different unnamed sources with conflicting information.
This story was then pulled by Yahoo and that is what you are reading.
Ok, well while all this does not make it false, it makes it uncertian enough that claiming it to be the result of a nuclear blast is pretty fucking stupid. You, as a 5th hand recipient are not at all in teh position to make that judgement. It could have been a nuclear blast, it could have been a FAE bomb, it could have been fire, it could all just be made up. Until there is more information, declaring for one of them is silly.
Don't believe a story just because it is bad, or because it agrees with your world view, believe it because there is sufficient evidence to show it's true. This is pretty thin right now, and it's not at all clear to us civilians surfing the net what happened. If you think you know, it's only yourself you are fooling.
Are these the same "satellite" photos (used to be) available from Mapquest and others? No, those aren't satellite photos. They are arial photos--ie, they were taken from a plane. Uh-huh. Smart ass.
Some analysis here
David Schneider-Joseph
I think someone needs to wake up and smell the bullshit. Americans are no longer in charge of their country, Bush has done pretty much everything he can atm to make sure of that. Even a blind leper whose been forced to watch goatse for the past 10 years can see that almost all americans are dead-set against pretty much everything bush is doing. Especially now that he is on his little crusade against what, in his own words, he calls the "gay threat". so why dont you all just imagine that our country has been taken over by a hostile military force which is hopelessly brainwashed to be infinitely loyal to the new "president" who is nothing more than a dumber and weaker hitler without as much of an urge for genocide...YET. oh and he doesnt have the dinky little mustache anymore.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Containers storing rocket fuel were set off by an electrical discharge resulting from the slow degredation of the facilities and increasingly unreliable power infrastructure.
That's gonna be a big boom.
The mainstream media is controlled by the republicans. It's better for Bush that this info came out on 9/11, not 9/9. Fear can be a powerful motivator for re-election.
For the real tinfoil hat people out there, and having read all the posts (but not the article - this is /. after all ). Putting all the explanations together. We have what really happened which is: The U.S.(or persons unknown ) set off a fuel/air explosion over the possible site of the NK's nuclear test site, setting off a large forest fire, think that just about covers all the bases
Smokey the bear says "Only you can prevent international nuclear panic"
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
Badger, Badger, Badger, ....., Mushroom cloud, Mushroom cloud, Badger, Badger, .... Mushroom cloud, Mushroom cloud, Badger, Badger, ..., Mushroom cloud, Mushroom cloud, Badger, Badger, ...., a Snake, a snaake, snaaaake, a snaaake, ooou it's a snaaake, Badger, Badger, ...
I gather you never watched Ghostbusters and witness the utter chaos when Mr Stay Puft exploded all over the place in globs of slimey goo. The only ones enjoying themselves were Dr. Peter Venkman and Dana Barret...
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
http://www.livejournal.com/users/kim_jong_il__/
Speculation isn't worth much. If it was a nuclear blast someone will find out eventually.
Whoever designed level 61 in Frozen Bubble is a sadistic bastard.
The 2 AM seismic event is strongest at KIS. That's located in the middle of the south shore of Japan (Chugoku-Shikoku area). It also shows up strong on the north/south motion graph (first graph is up/down).
Check the previous days, there's plenty of spikes. It's just a damn earthquake in Japan.
Here are pictures of the town near the explosion. http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/changbaishan/006/su b.html
Going to a few airshows apparently trumps your layman/common-sense physics knowledge. Tiny airshow-level pyrotechnics can create mushroom clouds. Mushroom-osity is not unique to nuclear blasts, only the size is.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Trying to confirm? Is a 4 km mushroom cloud so difficult to notice....something even the satellites have taken notice of. ,has to be found after investigation.
They are talking as if a small explosion reported
Its unbelievable , that they do not yet know about it - which could possibly mean that they do not want to talk about it for whatever reason.
Why does yahoo do this
This radiation monitoring station in Ishikawa Prefecture of Japan, due east of the Korean peninsula, shows elevated radiation levels on September 10th. http://atom.pref.ishikawa.jp/RS25000.htm
He's either whacked or really, really different - I vote for the former.
..........FULL STOP.
Really? Where'd they move to?
East Asia. Let's see what Wikipedia says:
Southeast Asia is a subregion of Asia. It includes all of the following territories:
Brunei
Cambodia
East Timor
Indonesia
Laos
Malaysia
Myanmar (Burma)
The Philippines
Singapore
Thailand
Vietnam
When you look at a map it is obvious that Korea is really pretty far to the north, which makes it reasonable that it's included with Japan, Taiwan and some Chinese provinces in East Asia.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
Nukes generate a characteristic light flash, shock wave and also have an electro-magnetic pulse (EMP). From this our satellites can tell you what type of nuke it is, how powerful, where the nuke material came from, etc. I just met a guy who takes care of the satellites that are responsible for monitoring the nuke test ban treaty.
..........FULL STOP.
It's Saturday, the weather was nice, and someone was just having a really outrageous barbeque and it got out of hand.
:)
Happens all the time, I'm sure!
No this is nothing about the US army being stupid. The fact that you don't get what I was implying means YOU are stupid though. The basic point is, if you are a tyrant, if you have a strong military that can cause a lot of damage then the US (or anyone else really) is a lot less likely to invade you then if it can walk in their taking hardly any damages. This is a basic truism in any conflict. However the fact that Iraq was invaded for WMD and being a "threat" and N. Korea not shows to tyrants that if you HAVE WMD (and the US is absolutely sure that you do) and it is aimed at a US ally ready to cause damage and you have a big army that can cause the US and its allies lots of damage then the US will not invade. So in the minds of tyrants throughout the world, what Iraq SHOULD have done is gone for nukes single-mindedly, and build up its military and stationed it on the Kuwait border with missiles and artillery aimed at the major cities. Ditto with Tel-Aviv. Basically it tells tryants "Build up your forces and build those nukes and chemical weapons and you are safe". Don't build them and you will die.
What the US has done with Iraq is to make military buildups and WMDs its primary reason for invading i.e. "pre-emptive war". The US has not left any room for subtlety or maneouver. It is black and white issue as presented by Bush who has dismissed all ideas of diplomacy and negotiation or shades of grey. The idea of this is to make a show of strength to the world saying "The US will destroy you if you do this". Basically the US is flexing its muscles to the world. However while it took out the weakest kid on the block when presented with a real fight i.e. N. Korea it has backed down and right now to the gang leaders on the block it looks like a pussy that is too scared to fight as long as they carry a gun or knife openly.
I think it would be mistake for the US to invade N. Korea. However its problem is it has built up too much expectations for itself. It is the guy who flexes his muscles and roars "I am the strongest. Challenge me and I will smash you to pieces. I will never back down. I know no fear." If you then back down after saying something like this (for whatever reason) you obtain an enormous loss of credibility in carrying out your threats. And because the US seems to be only willing to attack the weak it shows to the rest of the kids in the neighbourhood that as long as they have guns and carry them openly the big strong guy won't dare touch them, but if they don't have them he will smash them. That is he will only attack the weak. Hence the solution is not to be weak. I disagree with the war on Iraq make no bones about it, and I agree that the US is in a no-win situation in Korea, but I think that the US has brought this no-win situation on itself with all its "You are with us or against us" i.e. black and white bluster. Basically the US has made threats it should have known that it could never carry out. Iraq got smashed, but N. Korea has called the bluff successfully. Now N. Korea will be used as the example throughout the world on how to stop the US invading.
September 9th at exactly 9AM, there is a funny blip. http://www.hinet.bosai.go.jp/strace/24hour_wavevie w.php?orgid=01&netid=01&stcd=N.GENH&tm=2004090909& winnm=N_GENH
i'm going to take down the copy on my computer in a few minutes so that my isp dosen't start hating me.
and to whoever modded my mirror as flamebait... you're a twit.
America has friendly relationships with
several dictadorships. Why do not start
friendly relationships with NK?
This conflict seems quite stupid to me.
One way to control NK is being friendly
with them, and look for SK and NK unification.
That is the most intelligent way of getting
near China border. No nuke will do that.
In practical terms it's impossible to build a nuclear bomb that yields less than about 5 kilotons. The reason is that you need a critical mass of fissile material for an explosion to occur at all. The critical mass of U235 corresponds to a yield of over 100 kilotons; fission bombs usually yield less because only a small fraction of the uranium in a bomb actually fissions when it goes off. (The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of about 20 kilotons.) You can get a smaller yield by building a less efficient bomb, but the main factors determining the efficiency are the neutron/uranium reaction cross-section and the branching ratios, which are physical constants. You can't get a smaller yield by using less uranium.
i know i'm just an anonymous coward,
but
do check out
http://www.seismo.nrcan.gc.ca/hplot_e.php
for 2004 09 09 16
Something happened at 16:40 UTC.
==================
For reference, also check out:
2004 09 05 15
which was the 7.3 Richter-scale Japan earthquake.
Haven't you people heard of the Non-proliferation Treaty?
North Korea is led by a schizophrenic, unstable, sociopathic government, which has freely sold weapon and missile technology all around the world. If anyone out there thinks they won't sell nukes to terrorists if the money is right, I've got a bridge to sell you in New York.
Military action against North Korea is not only justified, it is a moral imperative. Remember all the loud-mouth peaceniks that didn't want Reagan (at NATO's request) to defend Europe against Soviet nuclear missiles? History has proven they were wrong, as they are wrong in this case. Ignoring threats like North Korea, or coddling them as Europe did to Germany and the U.S.S.R. in the last century, has been consistently proven to be a foolish and suicidal policy.
My direct message to Jimmy Carter-- biggest single contributor to North Korea's continued recalcitrance:
Flowers and hugs are not viable foreign policies and defense strategies. North Korea will continue to threaten and blackmail the world until we do something about it.
First all that spam..... and now THIS!
... take a look at NASA's Blue Marble, Globe at night pictures. A picture says a thousand words so they say.
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
Thats right kids, you too can download an mpeg motion picture, that could save your life today!
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
"
Yonhap carried conflicting reports about the cause of the blast, quoting one source as saying it could have been a forest fire and another as saying it may have been an explosion of at a weapons depot or factory.
...
Other possibilities include a failed missile engine test, a high-explosives test as a precursor to a nuclear blast or an industrial accident, diplomats said.
"In the northern part of the country, there are a lot of weapons factories and underground missile bases. The rocket-fuel could have exploded in the underground base, or something," speculated Daniel Pinkston, a North Korea expert at the Center for Nonproliferation Studies in Monterey, California.
"
But you do get ugly situations, such as the children who were accidentally killed by an army vehicle (kids do play in the street there, and the roads are frequently way too narrow)
If the streets are too narrow, SLOW THE FUCK DOWN.
I suppose the multiple rapes of young girls in Okinawa was their fault, too.
S. Korea produces cell phones and televisions, which are not in short supply and W knows nothing about. Iraq produces oil which is in short supply and W has many friends in the oil industry.
what abotu
C
H
I
N
A
fuck korea thy're puppets
You realize that military satelites can see and identify objects smaller than a football? I'm talking as an ex inteligence officer here.
Of course you can have a republic if people don't vote, as long as you don't have a monarchy. You can have a brutal dictatorship and still be a republic.
WRT to your sig.. you realize we live in a republic not a democracy, right?
If by "we" you mean the USA, it's a democratic republic. As opposed to a non-democratic republic like Iraq under Saddam Hussein, a non-democratic monarchy like Saudi Arabia, or a democratic monarchy like Canada.
Republic and democracy are not incompatible with one another.
why did we invade iraq at all?
where is osama? why aren't the bulk of our forces still looking under rocks and in caves in afganistan?
fuck bush and fuck the idiots who will vote for him again, you all get what you deserve i just wish i didn't have to share it iwth you
eat my karma
See subject. Oh and you can come off your horse now...
you want to exchange maps?
Given the number of wars Britain manages to fight on that budget, I can't help but wonder what the pacifist Japanese are spending it all on. Giant robots might not be so implausible...
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
I thought they legalized soft drugs!!!
I live here, so I pray to God it wasn't a nuke.
Gov't Confirms 'Non-Nuclear' N. Korean Explosion
It was reported that there was a massive explosion Thursday around the town of Yongjo-ri, Kim Hyong-jik County, Ryanggang Province. U.S. Department of State, sources familiar with North Korea and the Korean government all confirmed the explosion. A high-ranking government official said Sunday, It is true that a large mushroom cloud about 3.5 to 4 km in diameter was observed by a satellite at around 11:00 a.m. Thursday. It was not a nuclear test, but the explosion seemed to be three times bigger than the one that took place during the Ryongchon Station accident,± and added, Both U.S. and Korean intelligence authorities are investigating what caused the explosion.±
Chong Wa Dae Spokesman Kim Jong-min said, We noticed the explosion right after it took place and reported it to the president in writing during a National Security Council meeting. But we cannot decide the nature of the accident yet.±
The accident took place in a mountainous region 1,500 meter above sea level around Yongjo-ri, where it is known that there were many munitions factories nearby. In particular, the exact spot of explosion is only 10km away southwest from the Yongjo-ri base for Rodong 1 and 2 missiles and some 30km away from the Sino-Korean border.
There is much talk about the cause of the explosion. The government official said, If a nuclear test causes an explosion, we can detect it by reading satellite data. Thus, the recent explosion in North Korea was not caused by a nuclear test.± The intelligence authorities assume that an ammunition depot with over 1,000 tons of dynamite or an ammunition car may have exploded, or there may have been a chain explosion of chemical material or a big fire. Some Chinese sources argue that a massive explosion took pace in a munitions factory. Hong Sun-jik, director at the Hyundai Economic Institute said, Other than the assumption that it may be a simple accident that took place due to old facilities, we cannot exclude the possibility that the explosion may have taken place due to the lack of control of the Kim Jong-il regime, or it may have been connected to a secret feud over the successor of Kim Jong-il following the rumor of death of Kims wife, Ko Young-hee.±
Also, some strongly argue that it is not a simple accident because it took place on Sept.9, the Norths foundation day, which is considered a very important national holiday. Others argue that with Koreas nuclear experiments in the past at issue in the international community, it could be a false explosion by North Korea to intensify the Koreas nuclear issue. In other words, the North intentionally caused the explosion to deliver a message to the international community.
The government official said, We will be able to know the exact cause only after North Korea makes an official statement or intelligence authorities announces the results of their analysis.±
(Choi Byung-mook, bmchoi@chosun.com )
Am I the only single person on Slashdot who would be happy to hear that north Korea demonstrated a nuclear weapon? It could be a turning point in the ongoing "cold" Korean War. It might make the US finally give up invading the sovereign half of Korea.
I mean... all you that hate socialist Korea so much... Have you ever asked yourselves WHY you fear a nuclear-defended north? What reason have they ever given us to fear them? Unless you're naive enough to buy the line that they sell weapons to "terrorists," I say your opposition is baseless.
Property is theft.
Looking at the reactions so far on /. I get the sense that people are soiling their pants over this. Try to step back a bit and have a more realistic look at things.
1. N Korea is a small country and however much one may dislike them, they are not in a position to attack and take over the world - or even the region, nuke or not.
2. Its not realistic to imagine terrorists smuggling an atomic bomb anywhere. These things are big and 'noisy' in terms of radiation. While one might imagine that a very rich organisation - say, al Qaeda - could actually smuggle one into USA, why would they? It's too much effort for too little effect, when it is so much easier to slam an aircraft into a building or something like that.
No, even if N Korea make a nuclear bomb, it only makes sense for them to keep it as a threat. The very fact that they still exist against all odds demonstrates that they may have a very bad government, but they are probably not on a suicide mission.
The real danger (I have to say this, otherwise I'll get modded up) lies elsewhere: with people whose heads have grown too big and seem to tink they have a right to tell the world what to do.
from cnn... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12/nkorea .blast/index.html
Too fucking bad if you live in South Korea near the border. We need to wait to Kim Dong Dum is in a public place giving some speech at a millitary base and nuke it and their nuclear research facilities before it is too late.
Make an example of them and you can bet your ass Iran will start to cooperate.
You fucking European pussies are the reason we had WWII. Too big of a pussy to stand up to Germany until it was too late.
"Haven't you people heard of the Non-proliferation Treaty?"
Oh, lots of people have HEARD of it. Tell me, when is the "pre-emptive" military invasion and regime change to rid of weapons that gross-violating-of-the -treaty terrorist state, the United States of America?
It seems almost absurd that this ever needs to be pointed out, but WHICH country is the only one to use nuclear weapons, and on non-military civilian target in the full knowledge that the enemy was trying to surrender? I don't quite remember who it was, but it seems that they should be the FIRST nation in the world to be disarmed.
Property is theft.
The US tested many sub-kiloton devices.
I suggest as a minimum reading a bool called the Curve of Binding Energy... I'm pretty sure its got a chapter talking about Ted Taylor's efforts to build micro-yield devices.
Either way, your comment is completely wrong. Its far more complicated to created small yield devices, but not even remotely impossible. Its extremely unlikely that North Korea did that, though. While creating a nuclear detonation is simple given enough raw fissionable material (US and Russia both had no failed tests with primitive technology until we started pushing the envelope for smaller and smaller explosions), creating micro-yield explosions is, and the details is one of the closest kept nuclear secrets in the US.
Supposedly the explosion took place very close to a weapons factory.
:-)
I'm just speculating, Tom Clancy style, about a joint American-Japanese-South Korean sortie, you know, James Bond-ish sort of thing. And on Kim Jong Il's grand celebration, to boot. Now THAT would be quite an embarassment to the Illuminated Leader.
Then, the well trained western media calls it something ludicrous, like a forest fire, a classic techno-thriller wrapup.
Now that I've read the end of the book, I'd like to go back and read a bit of character development, the romantic interest, etc.
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
Could this be a conventional explosion of a launch platform? Here's a really paranoid idea: maybe this explosion, and the train explosion, are conventional explosions designed to terrify the NK population into believing that NK is being attacked by the US with nukes. [No, this isn't likely AT ALL, it's just a weird possibility that came to mind.]
Wise not to drink milk, buy fresh produce from that area for a very long time - or any neighbouring countries that copped it. Trick is knowing what to test for, and knowing if you are in the path of any more 'clouds'.
mutually assured partial destruction. Yes, the US could wipe them out, then over the next week the radioactive cloud would drift over china and japan and maybe parts of russia then on to the US. And if they have a few themselves, they might could hit a few places with them, say seoul for starters.
Just not sure the US knows how to deal with this. It's insurance from the NKs to not get invaded more than anything else. I expect it might work for them, too. Just like it probably will for Iran.
How long does it take a seismic wave to travel from Korea to California?
We've had smaller nukes than that since the late 1950's. Our AIM-26A and AIR-2A air to air missiles typically had 1.5 nuclear warheads. Some of these had the even smaller 0.25 KT warheads.
More Info:
http://www.milnet.com/aamtab.htm
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/arm/arm16.htm
http://www.hill.af.mil/museum/photos/coldwar/genie .htm
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
My homebuilt device will yield about 50Kilotones if detonated, In the meantime it serves to keep my house warm.
I wonder why my neigbours on all sides are attending fertility clinics?
Maybe I should have tode them to take precautions?
Damn lead lined uhnderwear bashes the hell out of the washing machine on spin dry!
Could this cloud have been the result of a U.S. strike against a North Korean nuclear facility? Maybe we located the place where they keep all of their bombs and just took it out?
#end tinfoilmode
I know, I can think of a million reasons why we shouldn't do something like that, but maybe we did anyway. It's not like this administration is beyond acting like cowboys...
Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
Has anyone found a time estimate this has happened? I'm also looking for several different seismic graphs to check for any telltale signatures that nuclear devices tend to leave however I cant find any on google lately? There's one 3 hours away in Meers Ok but other than the barbque they have there I'm not too interested in drivng up from Dallas if I can find it online.
Either way the US government has already denied that it was a nuclear bomb and for the size of the explosion and resultant cloud I dont believe them. Even the MOAB does not make a cloud that big. So unless the NK's have invented something better than our MOAB I'm more inclined to believe a underground blast, perhaps it was not far enough underground. And that would lead the question of any radation release
So, suddenly, fighting an actual Army is the same as fighting some holed-up guerillas in mountain caves ?
+5 Insightful??
Oh wait, comment also bashes Bush! +5 Insightful!
Bah. This political bias is too much.
see:
1
http://ares.redsword.com/GPS/old/sum_sat.htm#nb
("Nuclear Detonation Sensors")
If the streets are too narrow, SLOW THE FUCK DOWN.
I suppose the multiple rapes of young girls in Okinawa was their fault, too.
Ok, we're getting off-topic here, but this deserves an answer...If you know anything at all about that event, you'd recall that speed had nothing to do with it. When driving in a convoy, you don't necessarily get to see very far ahead of your vehicle. Add that to the fact that the driver doesn't actually see...from his inside position (someone up top directs him). Add that to the fact that kids dart out from buildings that are right on the street front without ever looking (I've had it happen). Add that to the fact that a sixty ton vehicle can't stop on a dime.
I'm in no way saying that the kids were at fault, only that these kind of things do happen, and it's very sad for everyone involved, but that there's little that can be done to avert these kind of accidents unless parents can keep their kids from playing in the streets.
The rapes of girls in Okinawa have absolutely nothing to do with either of the events that I mentioned. So, what exactly is your point?
Just another day in Paradise
Past couple days there have been articles about a possible north korean nuclear "test". We also have heard repeatedly that the US will somehow "deal" with north korea and nukes, and that it wouldn't be "tolerated".
Here is the speculation, just perhaps this was a pre emptive strike on nuke facilities there, either to destroy them because they truly are a threat, or as a pretext to go "see, toldyaso, they got nukes aimed at iowa and etc". Or both. Easy enough maybe with a micronuke and a cruise missile or via a stealth fighter, etc. Or maybe it was some MOAB variant to give the effect of a small nuke but not the rads. Remember that big train station blast that narrowly missed kim ill dung when he returned from china? That was another one that didn't add up logically, it was just too coincidental with the timing and location and too large. Even the NKs might not know this latest was an attack, they might think at this time it was an accident at their own facilities.
Just speculation, so far looks like a test, but I'm not sure they would want to waste one just testing it. They can't have that many yet even if they have completed them.
I am also suspicious because beyond anything else they are known as great diggers and tunnelers, seems like they would have gone to great lengths to use an underground deep shaft for testing purposes, partially at least to limit radioactivity so as to not whizz off like say china right now. So far, this appears to be a surface level blast, so we should know shortly from monitoring places around the world if it's nuclear or non nuclear, besides the sesimic info.
Ok, here's a question, what besides a micronuke or a MOAB could have gone off at that geogrqphical place that would give the seismic record and the visuals?
Another question, given that the NKs just love to propogandize, why no reaction from them, why no press release? If it was a successful test seems like they would be bragging on it, saying stuff like "running dog imperial lackeys dare not invade glorious PRK homeland now" and more etc. There's nothing on the north korean news site right now about it.
So, looks more like an accident or someone hit them first and wants to play stupid about it. We've also coincidently had a lot of our naval assets sorta hanging around the place for awhile now, it sorta slipped from the main news pages but a month or so back it was being discussed a lot how "unprecedented" it was to have all these various navies all out to sea at the same time.
--
Try Nuggets , the mobile search engine. We answer your questions via SMS, across the UK.
As safety and concern for personal or public safety are non existant in North Korea... it could have been any number of things.
It an Earthquake off the coast of Japan.
Our government and NORAD monitor everything and know what's going on.
Are you sure that NORAD is responsible for this kind of surveillance? They may track missile lauches and satellites; but detecting and analyzing "mushrooms" would be probably done by NIMA.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Reading 'Mushroom Cloud Over North Korea' woke me up ;) but its abit of a dud. Move along everyone, nothing to see here. Firstly, if it was a nuke theres no way it would be hidden for 4 days - the US would certainly want the news out, hell even i would support a pre-emptive attack on that evidence, and even if the didnt, lots of people would want to know so a cover up would be hard. The radiation would be picked up, its not. Even that padded-cell case wouldnt do an above ground test in the small country, it would be below ground or over the sea (he himself would be at risk from the radiation!). Its not a US bombing raid on a nuke facility, nuclear weapons dont go off when you drop bombs on them, they do give off lots of radiation tho. Its unlikely to be a US mini-nuke (although that would explain a cover-up) again because of the radiation: if it leaves a crater, you're gonna get fall-out and even if not from that, you'd get if from the nukes they destroy! From the location its probably a missile test gone wrong or some explosives all stored in one place or fuel?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Ok so you believing in the SwiftVets nullifies any credibility you might have had. It says I am a dummy that believes anything the government feeds me.
Could it have been a meteor ?
Someone else already pointed out that NK has not signed the non proliferation treaty, but that I think is the least of your problems.
Simply put: pre-emption is a euphamism for aggression.
First of all you're right about them selling nuclear material, but blowing them up isn't the right answer. What is? I don't know for sure, I'm not an expert, but economic incentives and disincentives would be a good start. When GWB came into office all he offered was the stick. Remember that? No carrot. He doesn't deal with evil. (Well, until reality intruded and he had to). In addition to that inspections would seem to be viable.
They seemed to be working in Iraq, unless of course you've got some other agenda.
As for Reagan, I don't by the Fox Wisdom stating that Reagon spending this country to death brought down the soviet union. It's not that simple. It seems to me that it was a combination of corruption and social pressure and inept government that brought down the soviet union. There's probably a lesson there for us as well.
But lets translate the behavior you propose into everyday life:Let's say your walking down a street and see some thug looking at you in a menacing way. Let's even say you notice he's packing. Do you pull out a gun and shoot him before he does anything? You probably don't because it's illegal, antisocial and brings you to the same level of the person you're afraid of.
A better quesstion for you and all the warmongers in this country is do you wish you could? Is it your greatest fantasy to just blow everything up, to kill it all and stand above the mess?
My direct message to GWB: Fear and hatred are not viable foreign policies. The number of people who wish to kill americans will only increase if we continue to behave like scared bullies.
But the rest of the worlds opinion is not the most important reason to change our foreign policy. The most important reason is because it is wrong, immoral and counterproductive. But then again I don't expect the foreign policy of GWB to be much different than his domestic policy or anything else in his life.
Most fundamentally the problem with pre-emptive action is that you simply don't know what can happen. And killing thousands of other people, both your own citizenry and those of another countries, is too expensive of a price to pay.
So you've got sixty-ton vehicles driven down narrow streets by people who can't see where they're going, and you still say it's the kids' fault?
The North Koreans agreed not to develop nuclear weapons in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars of aid in the form of food and oil, and assistance in developing a "peaceful" nuclear program. The North Koreans then used their "peaceful" nuclear program with assistance from Abdul Qadeer Khan from Pakistan to develop their own nukes thus secretly breaking their agreement.
You forgot one little fact.
The US didn't provide the aid as part of that agreement. And in 2001 when Bush took over he halted all discussions with North Korea and told them to fuck off, apparently thinking this was a Strong Stance showing America's Resolve. I don't know whether the buying off would have worked or not, but given both sides broke the agreement... was there ever really an agreement?
As for the choices you outline... They are all bad.
1. Doubt it would work at this point, not after the Iraq invasion has taught NK they have to have weapons to repel American invaders.
2. The Iraq war would look like a walk in Central Park by comparison. This may be required, but the costs are tremendous.
3. This move will signal that the US is backing off from being a global superpower, and establish the rise of a dominant China as a world power in the asian theatre.
4. This is what we are doing now and it is obviously not working.
This explosion could be the result of a secret agent's successful mission to blow up an underground weapons facility or something like that eh?
Or perhaps the US dropped a bunker buster on an ammunitions dump?
The United States is a federal republic. Canada is also a republic (a confederate republic, to be exact), but a republic with a parliamentary democracy.
However, if Baby Bush is to be believed, then we are more in line with a theocracy. I'm joking, of course (mostly).
Kidding aside, considering the power of corporate lobbyists and political corporate apologists, I wonder if we're not actually on the road to a plutocracy.
Just my morning mid-coffee thought for the day.
#SickNotWeak
WRONG.
Impossible.
There are physical limits to what can be seen through miles and miles of moving air.
Many of the arguments posted have one common thread Return to the Carter and Clinton administration path of diplomacy. These polices were a complete failure. Carter could not get hostages out of Iran. It was Regan who promised war that got the hostages out. Clinton was suppose to have dealt with this problem 10 years ago but we are right back in the same boat. Men like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Kim Jong only respond to force nothing less. If you believe cowboy diplomacy got us into this mess please explain why years of UN dealing with Iraq we never saw the end of Saddam, and Talban in Afghanistan???? It was this cowboy diplomacy that has started to put an end this crab. Cowboy diplomacy as many have put it might be our only saving grace. Believe me boy and girls you don't want to fight this war on our city streets. Just look at the mess in the Balkans, Iraq, Israel, and the Sudan the list goes on and on. I for one would rather fight this war on their soil not mine.
read the numberplates on a car?
WRONG.
Impossible.
There are physical limits to what can be seen through miles and miles of moving air.
here
Not too far fetched I'd say.
Oh, and try looking up pyrocumulus.
"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 Whoops, silly middle mouse button...
If it is a nuke or not probably doesn't matter. The point is everyone is freaked out as to what this means if NK has nukes.
Just remember, NK said it would give up its nuclear program if the UN would send outside aid in (food, meds etc).
Kim Jong II has a long history of "bait and switch" tactics when it comes to powering down NK's nuclear development program.
Essentially, he has surmised that nuclear alarmism (like it? That's a half-cup-o-coffeeism, feel free to use it) is the only tool available to North Korea to achieve a constant flow of financial assistance from the US (among others).
This cat has a track record of not living up to negotiated terms... plain and simple. From a pragmatic view it's understanable. Speaking purely in terms of economic gains, North Korea has nothing else going for it. This is a one trick pony that (in the past) has continued to pay off.
#SickNotWeak
You have access to Google, right? Do a Google search on "nuclear fallout". For example, in the wiki on world wide fallout. For dispersion, look up "jet stream" (example: wiki). Granted the amount of radiation would be minor, but it could be in the same ballpark as a "dirty bomb" and look how much concern that has on people (especially the press). I thought this stuff was known since the 60s.
BTW, if the explosion was not nuclear, then this discussion is null and void anyway. I haven't seen any confirmation of this yet
you know, there's a possibility that it's not a fusion bomb that they set off.
It's possible they've discovered another type of nuclear reaction, fission. It only takes one "eureka!" to figure something out for the first time.
I s'pose it's also remotely possible they've got another type of tech, or it actually is just a fusion bomb.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
This is because there is a larger multinational United Nations-backed presence in Afghanistan called the International Security Assistance Force"; refer to http://www.nato.int/issues/afghanistan/
This isn't a question of "Bush's priorities", as you so stupidly try to spin it. This was the will of the international community to lessen the presence of the Americans in Afghanistan, and the Bush administration complied.
"Saddam's own son-in-law told Newsweek they had no WMD anymore [commondreams.org] and the UN agreed that the "threat" Bush played up was a seriously distorting the facts. After the invasion, guess who was right?"
This was reported just about everywhere in the free world EXCEPT IN THE USA! I remember this story myself, reading the Canadian Press, Conrad Black notwithstanding!
Where was the much vaunted "American Freedom of the Press"? Why was this not reported in the US?
Another point that I noted at the time of the Saddam sons-in-law story was the fact that these two apparently were perfectly safe in Jordan, but were killed as soon as they stepped back on Iraqi soil. What does this mean?
It means that Saddam must have had a twisted sense of morality right out of an Ambrose Bierce novel. Iraqi dissidents were perfectly safe in places like Jordan or the even the USA but in mortal danger in Iraq. Saddam believed he had the right to do anything inside his "sphere of influence" but very little elsewhere.
So was he a global threat? Think it through!
My conclusion was that Saddam was only a threat to his own country and immediate neighbours. And he got such a bloody nose in Iran and Kuwait that the people even here no longer considered him a threat and this too was widely reported outside the USA.
For the same reason I could never believe that Al Queda could exist openly in Iraq. They too would be killed instantly after being discovered inside Iraq, unless they pledged eternal loyalty to Saddam! But Al Queda is on record as opposing to the death, all secular governments in the world and especially Iraq and even Islamic governments which do not meet their so-called standards, such as Saudi Arabia. They pledge alliegence to nobody!
Americans generally and the US President and his advisers particularly, just can't seem to imagine how dense they appear to most of the world because of this issue! This is why there is almost no expectation that they will do the right thing in North Korea!
The US official was misquoted. He meant "a cloud of mushrooms."
I love when some teenager working at a burger joint and living in his mother's basement lectures on military strategy and tactics. That's a nice, simplistic case you have made there, as though the number of troops is the only criteria worth considering. What about the type and difficulty of the mission, the composition of our forces, support from allied forces both local and foreign, the size and composition of the opposing force, the terrain, etc.? When National Geographic wants to photograph a leopard in the wild, they send one stealthy photographer, not 10,000.
The force in Afghanistan certainly seems to be appropriate for the mission, and things appear to be generally under control there. In case you were not aware (probably watching CNN), a large percentage of Al Qaeda has been killed or captured. The rest are on the run. Bin Laden is probably in Pakistan, not Afghanistan, and there are additional forces hunting him, including Pakistani forces and US CIA. The troops in Afghanistan are meant to secure that country while an orderly government is established.
I don't think Iraq had anything to do with Sept 11, either, but I do know that Hussein had terrorist training camps in his country, he paid the families of suicide bombers, he was harboring known terrorists like Abu Abas, he was making ongoing attacks on US pilots flying over his country, he was interfering with UN mandated inspections, documents have been reovered showing meetings were planned with Al Qaeda, and scads of politicians including Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Putin and many others from many nations believed that Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction and intended to use them against the US. Most of them just did not have the backbone to do anything about it.
Why don't you just come out and admit that you hate Bush simply because he is a Republican, and the Republicans gave Clinton such a hard time during his presidency.
Oh, and what are my military credentials? I was an officer in the US Marine Corps for six years. I am sure you have played a lot of Command & Conquer: Generals, though.
I, for one, welcome our new Korean nuclear-bomb-toting overlords.
I think he made his point quite well, you wank. Now go troll elsewhere.
So you've got sixty-ton vehicles driven down narrow streets by people who can't see where they're going, and you still say it's the kids' fault?
No, I never did say that...you're either a troll or unable to read what's in front of you.
Just another day in Paradise
it wouldn't be such a bad idea to apologize for Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki
COLD
DAY
IN
HELL
Just thought I'd throw that out for the hell of it. Do correct my spelling if it makes you feel better.
before he sho[o]ts ... himself
... um ... exactly why?
And I would want to stop a raving idiot who stands to grievously harm the real world outside his own little lunatic asylum
BWAHAHA. Go on, ya crazy bugger. Shoot yourself! I dare you! You sissy! Nyah nyah!
Anything to encourage or goad him if this is what he threatens (it isn't).
oh i'm sorry you preferr this one
s ID=97&Body=Oil-for-Food&Body1=inquiry
http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusRel.asp?infocu
Just because you never heard of it does not make it so. Many people warned of many things and never get attention until it's to late
http://www.un.org/News/dh/iraq/mortimer-30apr.htm
You sit down and ask what they really want. You then show them the spread of Islam. You point out that their eney is not realy emocracy, but a variant of the Jehovah worshippers that is so stifling, that once you get enveloped by it, you don't escape. If they only realized how every non-Islamic country needs to band together and not fight each other, then this situation would not go any further.
maybe the mushroom cloud was caused by a small comet or meteorite? how large such impacting objects will have to be to create a 2 mile crater (seriously)? or maybe it was a crash landing of a craft from Zeta Rticulla? while I'm not into politics, i sure hope that this is not a nuke, because that part of the world is sure a nuke zone, we have Russia & China who are members of the nuke club, Japan, South Korea & Taiwan, who have all the enabling infrastructures to join the club, and starving nations such as India and Pakistan who are members of the club, so why not another rogue starving nation which is intent on joining that club? the sad thing is that sooner or later, most nations will acquire nuclear arms capabilities. so, how do we deal with that? will we self annihilate? or will wisdom prevail? afterall our specie's DNA has no political, racial, or geographical boundries, and we all live on the one and only known habitable planet. God help us, peace
That is hardly maxed out for the US military. We have troops stationed in 130 nations around the world and over 145,000 active duty Guard alone. I question your assessment about what is "known" to be necessary to "control" Iraq. Care to be more specific on that?
Besides being a non-sequiter, it's also incorrect. What is your definition of "getting the job done"? Leaving Saddam in power? A few more years to allow him to hide weapons? Iraq is being turned over to the Iraqis. They will have elections in a few months. If the new Iraqi government asked us to leave, this administration has stated uncatagorically that the US would leave. In the meantime, we are fighting the radical Muslim terrorists as they travel to, and try desperately to upset the peace in Iraq. That's much better than fighting them in Manhatten.
The draft board is not being set back up. The democrats want it set up as a way to foster more objections to the operations in Iraq. But there is not going to be a draft any time soon.
Wow! What a ramble! Troops are being redeployed because the current deployment strategy was aimed at protecting against the Soviet Union. The USSR doesn't exist any more. More troops are needed closer to the current hot spots in the Middle East. I do question removing troops from South Korea, but I am not privy to the stragery.
You started and ended with this thought. Surly the substance of your post should have been aimed at supporting that statement. The best you got was "troops are being removed from South Korea". Yet you entirely ignore the fact that Bush has specifically named them as part of the Axis of Evil. Obviously thought was given to them. Obviously your statement is wrong. Do you not remember the shock that the media expressed due to the "Axis of Evil" speech? It was similar to the Reagan "Evil Empire" speech. I don't think the media ever got over that one. But now the Soviet Union is no longer a threat. Perhaps the plan with N. Korea is similar to the plan with the USSR. It should actually be easier with N Korea. They can never be as big of a threat as the Soviet Union was.
When will Windows be ready for the desktop?
The moderator must be new here.. he has obviously not read this history behind "...in Japan".
Will produce a mushroom cloud. It doesn't have to be a nuclear explosion.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
Yes Saddam was mostly a threat to his immediate neighbors. Hence the US had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia to protect the world's oil supplies, as well as enforcing economic sanctions against the Iraqi regime. Both of which were sand in the Arab saddle (do you like the cowboy analogy?) and explicitly stated by Bin Laden as reasons to strike at America.
There is no "right think in North Korea". There was no "right thing" in Iraq. The best you can hope for is the least wrong thing. If you've got a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
The rest of the world has no understanding of how simplistic (and craven) they seem to Americans.
Simon says the N. Koreans are being encouraged to cooperate with the New World Order gang.
>list games
Iraqi WMD Snipe Hunt
Prevent Global Thermonuclear War
>play Iraqi WMD Snipe Hunt
How about a nice game of Prevent Global Thermonuclear War?
>No, I would like to play Iraqi WMD Snipe Hunt.
Very well... please insert $287 Billion dollars, 1,000 American Lives, and US credibility for the first 18 months
>I don't have that type of money
You can borrow it from the Chinese
>Done
Congradulations! You've won the capture of Saddam Hussein.
>List Games
Iraqi Civil War
Prevent Global Thermonuclear War
>play Prevent Global Thermonuclear War
Please insert $50 Billion, 1000 American livers, and US Credibility
>Borrow money from the Chinese
There will be 34% interest, and 23% drop in US Currency value on this transaction. Continue?
>Yes
Please insert 1000 American lives, and US credibility to continue.
>It was a forest fire?
Please insert 1000 American lives, and US credibility to continue.
>Insufficient Credibility. List Games.
Iraqi Civil War
Pacific Rim Nuclear Arms Race
>Exit
Command Not Recognized
>Bye
Command Not Recognized
_
Well, they may have staged it, but they could have used a decently-timed set of det cord. It doesn't have to be a nuke explosion to get ONE spike, or does it?
.)
If it were Nuke, then wouldn't Tokyo, DC, or the UN or some power or agency have reported immediately? WHY does it take 3 or 4 days, and the conspicuous absence of CNN, and the rest, to comment or tell us across the ocean what the HELL is going on. Since it likely is not a nuke, I suspect Washington and Seoul, and Tokyo, knew of some shred of an event to happen, monitored it, and knowing it was an annual bluff/demonstration downplayed it. But, still, one needn't possess a nuke or dirty bomb to wreak havoc: just lob in missiles (assuming decent guidance systems are aboard) to various coordinates, mixed in with commercial air traffic, and let the confusion begin.
I am also suspecting that the delay is because there was possibly a pre-strike on PY if there were nukes. Maybe the pre-strike was to blow up a lab a-la Israel style like in the '80s, against, what, was it Libya? If the nuke or whatever material were underground, I wonder if bunker busters were used. Maybe PY would choose not to comment if they did get preemptively struck, and the US or Australia or any similar Intel teams' efforts averted a regional flareup
I imagine, as per the annual political showing NK makes, they decided to stage a butt-load of explosives in a ring, maybe using shaped charges, and a pool of some heinous liquids to give the effect of some massive, threatening weapon. (Once the geiger teams sneak in or specially-equipped predators go aloft, the US or other nations will find out the scoop. However, if they get caught, and shot, well, that's a separate issue and the price for espionage: getting caught and rubbed out is the known part of the game. Better send a predator, because I'll tired of hearing people whine about their loved one caught behind enemy lines or who stayed behind for some cause when they KNEW they were at risk. Just like firefighters who sign on and risk death to help other, so do snoops and spies.)
As for mushroom clouds, I don't think they're a "signature" of nukes only. But IF it was a nuclear explosion then the huge amount of dust particles --if radioactive-- will definitely shower on neighbors and PY will have to answer for that. It's not (yet, at least) as if they had a Chernobyl or TMI.
I'm starting to wonder if the train explosion in April was a rail load of highly explosive liquids or solids, and maybe they were delayed on some prior demonstration.
I am also wondering if the US or UK or another power's Intel (not the chip company!) sources that tipped them or persuaded them to launch a cruise missile or a bomb-laden predator to trigger the train explosion or even pre-ignite the 9/9 site. These days, you can't put ANYthing past the top 5, avowed "global" military powers.
(No, given Japan's charter, I am not including them in "military" powers, though I recall their Maritime Self Defense Force (JMSDF) ranks 3rd or 2nd so in quality, capability, responsivense and such. I have to revisit globalsecurity.org or fasa.org
But, I'm no expert. Maybe John Pike can weigh in on it.
David Syes
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
"What was it then? Car crash? Natural gas explosion?"
Maybe David Carradine and Quentin Tarantino are updating "Deathrace 2000". (PY needs the money, so they probably permitted the filming.)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
The US had HUNDREDS, if not thousands of small, theater/tactical nuclear artillery shells in Europe for some time. I recall these were or were to be Howitzer-fired shells. They were meant to stave off or destroy the then-predicted/feared onslaugh (of the massive number) of then-Soviet tanks.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
does it have TypeR stickers?
If you're really really good at tech, you can make a tiny nuke,
If you're okay at tech, you can make a big nuke,
If you suck at tech, your big nuke will fizzle.
If you read the article carefully it says: "The agency said the diplomatic source raised the possibility of a nuclear text blast..." Reports indicate that someone tried to spell check a huge document in Microsoft Word while simultaneously playing Doom III, leading to the nucleur text blast. :)
Robert Oschler - RobotsRule.com
They probably buried to much kimchee together and it reached critical mass. Rotting cabbage in an enclosed container produces highly explosive gasses. And when you bury them in a collective farm they usually pack them too close together. Then blammo. An enourmous cabbage cloud, not mushroom cloud, shoots skyward. I do understand that any kimchee that survives the inferno is pretty tasty.
Thank God they didn't do that on the Moon or it we would have lost it.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
> US official suggests that the mushroom cloud might be
> caused by a forest fire. A little bit of physics knowledge
> [layman/common-sense] makes this suggestion laughable
You're missing the point. If the government can get people to argue back and forth about whether a forest fire would create a 2-mile cloud and a crater, the people won't spend time thinking Bush's missteps regarding North Korea (and foreign policy in general). Just like if you can get people arguing about the typeface of a typewriter, they'll ignore the fact that witnesses and records say that Bush did not fulfill his National Guard duties and we deserve to know why.
If you can get people to argue about a particular branch on a tree, they'll forget to consider the forest.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
...wish I had AC mod points
I forgot to mention the reports of NK appreaing to prepare for a nuclear test before the cloud.
But another poster posted a link to this story which says "The [South Korean high-ranking] government official said, 'If a nuclear test causes an explosion, we can detect it by reading satellite data. Thus, the recent explosion in North Korea was not caused by a nuclear test.'" That's the kind of hard info I want to hear, assuming it's correct.
You neo-cons cannot get this through your heads. Say it with me slowly: HAVING-A-DIFFERENT-POINT-OF-VIEW-DOES-NOT-MAKE-YOU -ANTI-AMERICAN. Just because someone disagrees with the war in Iraq does not make them Anti-American. Having the freedom to publicly disagree and agree is one of the most important rights built into the Constitution of this country. If anything, it is 'hip' and 'cool' to call anyone with an opinion different from a neo-con a crazed liberal wacko and simply ignore what they are really tryng to say.
China is in a very unique situation here. They don't much like North Korea but they also do not want any situation where you have, say, US forces stationed close to their border for a long time. I would expect China to make a lot of noise and probably start to send in a massive conventional forces in if the US starts sending forces into North Korea. China might also threaten a Nuclear counter attack if the US were to use nuclear weapons against North Korea.
Note that sending in forces doesn't necessarily mean "Supporting North Korea" and could be similar to the Russian response to the Kosovo operation where they moved in and occupied key airfields as a way of saying "We are here. This part of the world is in our sphere of influence."
The way out is to have a conventional invasion where two conditions are met. The first is that the Chinese would be brought into the joint command, and the second is that they would be assured that they would have a strong role in the post-war Korea.
but if US nukes -> NK, NK -> attacks seoul and tokyo. Wheres the doomsday comming from? russia isn't going to do anything, china might but not sure about that. I do belive the US is the only major nuke power left with large amounts of warheads. or am i wrong?
This is mostly irrelevant. The fact of the matter is: North Korea could inflict significant damage agaisnt the US by nuking Tokyo and shelling Seoul (reliable estimates for Seoul range from 20,000 to 40,000 civilians dead and many many more injured, and deaths could be much higher if chemical munitions are used in an urban setting, possibly reaching over a hundred thousand). To put things in perspective, this is approximately 10x the number of Americans dead on Sept 11, and nearly on the scale of Hiroshima.
If China were to hit, say New York with a large, strategic Nuclear weapon even after a US counter attack, the damage to us would be unacceptable. If this was a retaliation to a nuclear strike close to their border (where the Chinese have legitimate interest due to fallout considerations, etc)....
China has an estimated 75-100 warheads, which could be launched via ICBM and SLBM. SLBM would be the preferred means of delivery in the event of the deployment of a ballistic missile defence program, as such a program would be unlikely to be able to successfully defend against the low-altitude SLBM threat (SLBM's are the hardest type of ballistic missile to defend against).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
We see suspicious looking buildings in Iraq and we start an all-out war while screaming "WMDs!". We see giant mushroom-shaped clouds in North Korea and shrug while saying, "Eh... not nuclear?"
"the US would certainly want the news out, hell even i would support a pre-emptive attack on that evidence,"
Pre-emptive attack with what? even before we spread our troop to thin accross the mid-east we couldn't when a war with N.Korea. They have over 1 million soldiers, and a leader who thinks the psycic generators he bought from Russia protect him(yes you read that right). So 1 million soldiers, a crazy leader, and they might have nukes? Not something you want to fight.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This South Korean article has a better low res map showing boundaries. article here
At first, I thought you were talking about bush.
http://www.unknownnews.net/040718d-kf.html
What do you think this is, everything2?
That "talk softly, but carry a big stick" quote, delivered before sending the American White Fleet out on a circumnavigation tour of the globe, was by Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin's cousin. It was delivered thirty-or-so years before Franklin won the Presidency in 1932.
Teddy was a Republican, albeit a "Bull Moose" 'pub. But then 'pubs and dems today are not what they were in the first decade of the 20th Century.
There seems to be agreement on /. that:
1) there was a big crater
2) it didn't show up on anyone's seismometer
I don't know what happened in NK, but the above two statements, taken together, do NOT make sense!
Upstairs Dog, Downstairs People.
Hear! hear!
The second he used the phrase "Moral imperative" his argument was lost.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Main slashdot page link to this story shows:
.
4 8255.shtml ?tid=99&tid=1
2 55 &tid=99&tid=1
Mushroom Cloud Reported Over North Korea
. .
( Read More... | 1066 of 1494 comments )
But click gives following URL with no comments
http://slashdot.org/articles/04/09/12/0
Going to article list by author gives link below
which does include comments:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/12/048
Is this a bug-typo in main page or has Slashdot been hacked?
... is that this "mushroom cloud" happened on the day of the 56th anniversary of the founding of the Democratic Republic of North Korea.
While it could well be a coincidence, governments have also been known to provide military shows of strength on significant patriotic-themed days.
I may be risking my life by telling you this, but George W Bush's helpers compress Bush's manifestos into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. Here's a quick review: To say that we should be grateful for the precious freedom to be robbed and kicked in the face by such a noble creature as Bush is uneducated nonsense and untrue to boot. In a tacit concession of defeat, he is now openly calling for the abridgment of various freedoms to accomplish coercively what his damnable convictions have failed at. The first lies that Bush told us were relatively benign. Still, they have been progressing. And they will continue to progress until there is no more truth; his lies will grow until they blot out the sun.
To Hell with him! He has become so morally and ideologically degraded, so acclimated to jujuism and antidisestablishmentarianism, that he wants to rescue pauperism from the rubbish heap of history, dust it off, slap on a coat of cheap sophistry, and market it as new and improved. From this anecdotal evidence, I would argue that time cannot change Bush's behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which Bush can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, numb the public to the ethnocentrism and injustice in mainstream politics. Bush, as usual, you prove yourself to be wicked. Unlike him, when I make a mistake I'm willing to admit it. Consequently, if -- and I'm bending over backwards to maintain the illusion of "innocent until proven guilty" -- Bush were not actually responsible for trying to perpetuate myths that glorify barbarism, then I'd stop saying that Bush insists that sin is good for the soul. Sorry, Bush, but, with apologies to Gershwin, "it ain't necessarily so." His pleas may not be traditional for all hideous boneheads, but I am certain that if I asked the next person I meet if he would want Bush to use every conceivable form of diplomacy, deception, pressure, coercion, bribery, treason, and terror to impede the free flow of information, he would say no. Yet we all stand idly by while Bush claims that he can change his effete ways.
As I have indicated, it's his belief that my letters demonstrate a desire to rifle, pillage, plunder, and loot. I can't understand how anyone could go from anything I ever wrote to such a perfidious, disaffected idea. In fact, my letters generally make the diametrically opposite claim, that Bush has -- not once, but several times -- been able to hold annual private conferences in which power-drunk, out-of-touch racketeers are invited to present their "research" without anyone stopping him. How long can that go on? As long as his truculent op-ed pieces are kept on life support. That's why we have to pull the plug on them and speak up and speak out against him. Much of the noise made on his behalf is generated by unrestrained carpetbaggers who seem to have nothing better to do with their time. And here, I think, lies a clue to the intellectual vacuum so gapingly apparent in his recommendations. I hope that Bush's opinions were intended as a joke, although they're not very funny if they were. Bush's rodomontades need to be reassessed with Bush's ulterior motives in mind. This position, in large part, parallels civil libertarianism, but with particular emphasis on the fact that Bush is absolutely determined to believe that the laws of nature don't apply to him, and he's not about to let facts or reason get in his way.
As for the lies and exaggerations, in order to shatter the illusion that it's perfectly safe to drink and drive, we must put inexorable pressure on him to be a bit more careful about what he says and does. And that's just the first step. Remember, I shall return to this point in particular. To cap that off, if Bush truly believes that he is beyond reproach, then maybe he should enroll in Introduction to Reality 101. Bush claims that the most valuable skill one can have is to be able to lie convincingly. This is a very quasi-disloyal and unconstructive view and moreover, is wrong in many ways
We could drop radios into North Korea using leaky mylar balloons to loft them in, when the wind is right. I know several North Korea defectors and I have discussed this with them and they agree that this would do serious damage to Kim Jong Il's reality distortion field...perhaps upsetting his apple cart bigtime. And it would be cheap.
Food/vitamin-enriched biscuits would also do a world of good and undermine Kim Jong Il's regime - as it feeds on hate...
Write your Senators or Congresspeople suggesting this, please...
Neither the US (..) have enough weapons to destroy all those artillery positions
Are you trying to say the US are the innocents good guys on this earth (like any stupid hollywood movie) and that they US have no weapons whatsoever. Weren't they who used NUCLEAR power against innocent people during WWII.
You fucking moron. Stupid tech mind. Get away from your monitor and learn about life!!!
The US are the new nazis. The US makes about 5% of the world's population yet they use up from 60% to 70% of the earth's resources.
The small one would be track record. They've been a round a long time and in that time shown that they are generally an accurate source of reporting.
However the big one is first hand versus second hand knowledge. Yahoo does nothing but collect stories and publish them. They really have no way of verifying them. CNN has a massive reporting department that actually goes and finds and verifies stories. Means that they can check the information for themselves.
It's like why would either be more credible than the grandparent troll? Well, because he's just some random yoink relying on fourth hand information to form an uneducated conclsuions. No way to verify the info, just running with it.
Someone posted that Drum seismometer reading and the spike shows up on a couple of the stations at the same time. You could be right. I recall seeing something about an undersea earthquake in the Sea of Japan, but I don't recall the date. That could be what I'm seeing on the F-Net link. However, the story keeps changing. Yonhap was at first saying the was no seismic activity, but is now saying that there was seismic spikes around 11pm Wednesday and 1am Thursday.
He's an absolute ruler. They all get that way.
The more power he gets, the more eccentric he becomes.
Elect a US President for life and he would end up the same in just a few years.
Why shouldn't an absolute leader take what he can get, he will never be able to retire.
Absolute leaders tend to die when they quit!!!
He is not insane, he just wants to remain fearless leader and stay alive just a little bit longer, a natural instinct.
All that typing and only the first paragraph is relevant to the discussion.
They would be wonderful tools for inner city revitalization projects in the US.
3 months? Remember the Korean war? Vietnam? How's Iraq working out?
3 months? Still holding on to the "superior military force" fantasy?
3 months... you're an idiot.
Look at this list of US military operations in the last 100 years. (Yes, the page is pretty frothingly left-wing, but the list is still a list.)
Note that there were 39 military operations in those 38 years, or almost exactly 1 per year. More usefully (since the list includes pretty minor things), there were only about 14 operations involving significant numbers of US troops on foreign soil (I'm counting Korea, Egypt, Lebanon (x2), Panama (x2), Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Cambodia (x2), Laos, El Salvador, Grenada, and Iran).
Since 1989 (15 years), there have been 28 military operations, or 2 per year. Again counting only operations involving more than a handful of US troops on foreign soil, we get 9 significant military operations (Panama, Iraq (x2), Somalia, Yugoslavia, Haiti, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Philippines).
If we only wish to consider invasions and large-scale military assaults, there were only six in the 38-year Cold War (Korea, Lebanon, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Cambodia, Grenada), but there were five in less than half that time after the Cold War ended (Panama, Iraq (x2), Somalia, Afghanistan).
Considering that the rate of US military intervention has sped up since the end of the Cold War, I would again argue that the diplomacy - including brinksmanship - that prevailed during that time did indeed keep the superpowers "relatively peaceful".
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Real time.
I didn't think the house band in Hell would play this badly.
In bed with a beautiful woman, protecting the world.
Everything I need to know about copyrights I learned from Slashdot.
And that's why we now call them 'freedom' fries instead of 'french' fries.
Fair and Balanced my ass
OutFoxed Trailers
It is simply a campaign from the Bush Government to mislead public opinion and gather support for their *next* military action.
Don't be fooled.
They are maneuvering us, once again. The FUD government.
The current U.S. government makes the U.S.A. n international threat.
In other neww the last words heard out of the blast area were the Chinese equivalent of "Hey Yall Watch This (BOOM)
Right you are. Good for them they have nukes!
That means the U.S. government and *their* crazy right-wing Christian fundamentalists can't just *invade* them and get away with it.
The most dangerous power today? The U.S.
I hope Europe arms itself to it's teeth.
Fuck the U.S.A.
Thank you for giving us a demonstration of the dangerous people you are.
Americans deserve another 9/11.
I guess the definition of "terrorist" you gave would include Nelson Mandela, no? /not/ a terrorist act. In fact, it was legitimate. The WTC was illegitimate because it was a civilian facility.
I guess that means: "terrorist is whoever we wanna label 'terrorist' for or own convenience."
Which is the current definition the US government adopts.
But it is incorrect: crashing a plane on the Pentagon was
Let's do some rough esitmates on what is needed to create this explosion. The feasibility of which, I leave up to you.
i story/Damage s.html
For the 2.5 Mile wide mushroom cloud to be made of anything conventional, other than a clean or unclean nuclear device, you would need approximently 35 Kilotons of TNT.
This is 5 Kilotons less than the explosion over Hiroshima by the nuclear bomb named "little boy". I would like to know what explosive of non-nuclear origin made this cloud/crater.
If anyone has any other conventional explosive measurement for this sized explosion, I would be glad to see it.
For s short backgroud:
http://mothra.rerf.or.jp/ENG/A-bomb/H
http://www.facetofacemedia.ca/NDpne.html
Take care.
If the forest fire swept through a munitions dump...
"Not that red button!" *BOOM!*
http://137.229.36.30/cgi-bin/scmag/disp-scmag.cgi? date=20040909&Bx=on
-Michael
...they would have started doing so a long time ago. The lunatics in charge of that particular asylum have an irrational streak of invincibility syndrome. "Buzz wouldn't do that!" "3!" "He would."
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
McDonalds is regarded by pretty much everyone in the rest of the world as emblematic of American society. That and Coke and cigarettes.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Sorry about that link, here's how you find the article, go to this Google cache, and find the article with the highlighted text, it's a bit down on the page.e attletimes.nwsource.com/html/tableofcontents/+%22P resident+Bush+and+his+top+advisers+have+received+i ntelligence+reports+in+recent+days+describing+a+co nfusing+series+of+actions+by+North+Korea+that+some +experts+believe+could+indicate+the+country+is+pre paring+to+conduct+its+first+test+explosion+of+a+nu clea&hl=en
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:wT-vtJkMlPQJ:s
Bad spy novels aside, you can't sit a satellite directly over Moscow at all. You can over Singapore, but the laws of physics make it difficult to make out individual buildings with visable or infrared wavelengths at that distance.
Satellites like the old Landsat series are designed to take images orbit at as low a stable orbit they can be at without being slowed down by atmosphere, and the orbit is also angled with respect to the equator so that they can take good images most of the way to the poles. There are (or were) also satellites with polar orbits - going from north to south and back again, which could get images of the entire earth over time.
Then there's the military imaging satellites - what we do know is they have highly elliptical orbits (like a comet), they go up very high and then spend a short time in the atmosphere before going high again - they get very close but still have a stable orbit. Since they are closer, a lens can now resolve smaller objects - the minimum possible size can be found from distance and wavelength.
For hi-res mapping at a specific lattitude this works out well, but for a specific event a satellite has to be going over at the right time, which I'm sure is whey there are a few. Unless we're lucky we'll just have a good image of a crater.
Oddly enough, the longitude of Korea is where geostationary satellites tend to drift to - the gravity variations due the the shape of the earth collect the satellites over directly over Indonesia - but Korea is a long way north, and geostationary orbit is a long way out.
The psychological effect alone would shut down the whole nation.
Would it be greater or less than the psychological effect that baseless and unjustified fear has done in shutting down the US the last couple of years?
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
First, the seismic data seems to argue against it being nuclear. I therefore suspect accident rather than intentional acts, and given that this is sort of their "founding day" and the big propaganda day for their government, we may never see an official report about it from their government.
The area where this occured has large weapons depots, factories, missile bases, and the like. I therefore suspect that there was an accidental explosion in a weapons depot. Such an explosion would probably create such a crater and mushroom cloud and would not require a nuclear bomb.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
No they don't. The crises have always been there, it's just that your memory is faulty. Remember, WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EASTASIA.
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
I think you have oversimplified history considerably.
Why was there enemity between the US and USSR? Some of that can be pointed at your Winston Churchill, I am sure. Yes, Stalin was nutty as the day was long. Would you have prefered to try to stand alone against the USSR?
Oh, lest I forget, who is it that sold some needed turbo-jet technology to Russia? The Nene copy ( license built ) turbo-jet that powered the Mig-15 ( used to shoot down American pilots in the Korean war ).
America could have taken it's marbles and gone home after WWII. But we didnt because it would have been wrong to leave Britain and much of Europe under a red flag. It cost us lives and money to do so.
In my view, admitedly biased, Europe painted a big red target on the US, and we accepted that in order to keep more of Europe free than had aready disappeared into USSR occupied zones.
Course, I am just an American, therefore auto-stupid and auto-wrong.
emt 377 emt 4
Actually it did, around 1994, then announced its unilateral withdrawal in early 2003. Someone else will have to answer whether the treaty gives the UN authority to wage war against them for withdrawing from the treaty.
If that is true, 'morality' is a farce and pointless. With no reason to be 'good', everybody alive may as well 'Do whatever they want to whomever they want whenever they want.'
Do you want to live in a world like that?
I don't.
There appears to be sufficient numbers of 'moral' people alive that the entire planet hasn't become an utter 'hellhole'. They appear to be the only ones preventing the world's ultimate slide into utter darkness....
Added to that, you have people dying in the past and now as martyrs for this 'morality'. Why give your life for something that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt isn't true?
In closing, I assert such matters of 'morality' cannot be proved or disproved by logic or applications of one's five senses so, according to Christianity, one of the dominant tenents of 'morality' on this planet, says:
Some final material, in closing:
spooky credentials. Please, don't bother us with this 'I had a Top clearance' bullshit. Why the fuck are you even posting that you had clearance? You ain't supposed to even say that. Right?
My gun theory is that if everyone at high school were issued a gun and real training in how to use it there would be less school shootings, and no school massacres like columbine. Same with terrorists hijacking airplanes. Give everyone a gun, and even if one or two crazy fucks try to use thier gun to take over the plane the 150 other armed passengers will probably win the battle and although the plane may go down, there won't be any planes flying into buildings. So maybe the same holds for nukes. Let every country have nukes, and there won't be any more wars. We'll all be forced to learn another way of solving disputes.
On the other hand, soon there will be more people than food and water. If you think these oil-based wars are heating up, check back in in 50 years or so. This is heartless, but maybe we need North Korea and China to go to war with nukes, and perhaps involve india too. That will reduce the number of world's population to a sustainable amount. On the other hand, again speaking heartlessly, America is one of the greatest consumers and takes more than our share of some resources (and produces more than we need of others), so if you were trying to reduce consumption of resouces to avoid the crisis of overpopulation you'd want to look to large consumers as well as countried with billions of consumers.
A friend of mine told me a few years ago that shorty has a radio transmitter as part of his pacemaker and that if he is assassinated that the radio transmitter would trigger something to drop a bomb over south korea which would cause us to retaliate and wipe out north korea including the assassinating conspirators.
Too much of the Army is tied up in Iraq.
Best Slashdot Co
It might sound at first crazy.. but what are the chances that this was an attack by U.S. on N.K.?
I belive it is a mistake to think that the only country headed by a madman is North Korea, mr Bush him self doesn't seem to be quite a bright person, not to mention that his "war on terror" geopardizes global equilibrium quite a lot.
On the exact nature of the atacck, youre guess is as good as mine, but we all know that US developed tactical nukes, which could be deployed in a varaiety of ways, including special operations. We've all heard rummors of USSR agents being able to transport small nukes on briefcases.
A US-performed or backed attack could very well provide an explanation for the international official and media silence on the issue.
Go Beyond.
In 12 September 2004 there were reports of a huge detonation in North Korea , near a missile base near the border with China. South Korean media reported on the explosion, saying it sent up a mushroom cloud three-and-one-half-kilometers wide on Thursday 09 September 2004, the 56th anniversary of North Korea's founding. The Yonhap news agency cited an unidentified source in Beijing as saying damage was large enough to have been seen from a satellite. The agency quotes a diplomatic source in Seoul as saying the mushroom-shaped cloud was up to four kilometers in diameter. Yonhap said there has been speculation the explosion may have been bigger than the one that largely destroyed a North Korean border town, Ryongchon, on April 22, killing 170 people and injuring an estimated 1,300 others. FROM: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/yongo _dong.htm
The only PT Boat Journal on the web: http://www.PT171.org
I address this issue in this post:
Re:Occam's Razor - No God? Think again....
They all seem to agree to keep a straight face about Saudi government sponsorship of the 9/11/2001 WTC/Pentagon planebombings. And the Saudi cut in oil prices now reducing gas prices in the US just before the election, as agreed between Cheney and Bandar as support for the invasion of Iraq. They also didn't talk much about their intelligence on the Saudi supported Pakistani lab of AQ Khan, as he sent the nuclear tech he copied from his Dutch/German employers to Libya, Iran and N. Korea. All that mischief makes for embarassing stories about government mismanagement of foreign policy, trade and technology. Not to mention inadequate intelligence and its review by politicians and military commanders. Why should we ever hear the ugly truth? We're just something else that can go wrong, in the eyes of those in the know.
--
make install -not war
SOURCE FOUND: Mass KIMCHI farts !! In a weird coincidence, all 89 million Communist Koreans farted in one massive cut. Some observers said it smelled like kimchi. Those that have smelled kimchi say it's worse than beef farts. Reuters reporting.
point taken, but seriously shouldn't the 'powers that be' be doing something a tad more aggresive to defend our freedom? Sitting around getting stomped on is a tactic I'm sure will fail in the long run.
Is our freedom really that endangered?
Walking in is easy, as anyone who's ever seen a cowboy step into a movie saloon surely knows. It's the walking out of saloons like Vietnam, Iraq and Korea that's hard. We walked into Korea a half-century ago, and have been hunkered down there ever since. And now it's approaching high noon. Even if we gun down Kim Jong Il, the stray fire into the surrounding townspeople is unnacceptable. And it'll be hard to keep the shops open along Main Street when the bullets are flying. Especially if that burning light at high noon is nuclear fission.
--
make install -not war
Bush's Axis of Evil rhetoric scooped up his personally preferred target, Iraq, along with the connected states of Iran and North Korea, lying to fabricate a rationalization for invasion. Those latter two are both customers of the country missing from the equation, Pakistan, whose AQ Khan supplied them with the nuclear technology with which they are both threatening us today. Pakistan also is the home of the Taliban which conquered post-Soviet Afghanistan, supporting the terrorists which planebombed the WTC and the Pentagon in 2001. And while we're discussing the missing links in that Axis, we might as well mention that Saudi Arabia bankrolled the whole thing. The evil controls the White House, which is covering for all of these enemies, leading the war against America from within, from on top.
--
make install -not war
Nuke is the only answer. All the stories to the contrary are just cover stories to protect various national and regional interests. There is also a LOT of ostrich posturing here as well.
Lets see, if we ADMIT that we KNOW that it is a nuke, they WE have RESPONSIBILITIES to take certain ACTIONS.....that is what the politicians will say.
And so goes the tale. Maybe if we just ignore the rabid bear that is tearing at the door, he will just
go away! HAH!!!
How many in South Korea will panic at the thought of a nuclear north? How many politicians will quail at the thought of the extra expenditures on the military that will be necessary now? Such an act publicly admitted by
western politicians would lead to more money for
defense here as well. Our President gave away the candy store to the big multinational corporations and to China after an election in 2000 marred by Chinese influence buying reaching all the way to the oval office. Now 'little' North Korea, the surrogate Chinese satellite, population swelled by 6 million Chinese troops masquerading as 'immigrants' has a nuke and all those American transplant factories could all be
nationalized overnight. It is no secret that Kim
Song Oh had an old arrangement with the Chinese to
send at least another army group to Korea if she asked...and that was back in the 90's when they first made a fool out of Bush's father. Now they are making an even larger fool out of his son. I weep for the millions of Americans that will have to pay a price in blood for the greed and treason of our own politicians.
yes, yes, my mistake on the terminology.
It was late.
My other first post is car post.
Dude, there's very little oil under Nth Korea, so there's an even smaller chance that Bush will try to liberate it.
"Sec. of State Colin Powell has confirmed a huge explosion rocked North Korea last week but doesn't believe it was not connected to the country's nuclear program."
huh?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
According to this BBC report, North Korea is claiming to have destroyed a mountain as part of a large hydro-electric project. They are apparently considering a request to allow a British diplomat to inspect the scene.
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
I know the rule is, never get involved in a religious discussion. First off let me say that I am not an atheist. However, your arguments are, logically speaking, rather weak.
First, non-religious fundamentalist types generally believe in the evolutionary origin of man (and indeed, all living things). Which means that your argument that "If that is true, 'morality' is a farce and pointless. With no reason to be 'good', everybody alive may as well 'Do whatever they want to whomever they want whenever they want.'" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Here's why:
Let us first assume that what you say is true, and that without morality, the world would quickly disentegrate into a horrible, unliveable hellhole. I personally think this is quite a reasonable assumption. It is therefore clear that any social species without some sort of "moral" code would not be able to maintain much of a society. Since social species become social to protect themselves, this would not be in their best interest. So without attributing basic human morality to divine planning, it is quite possible for someone skeptical of religion to see your argument as a non-starter. Their response would simply be, well, being that it is in the best interest of the human race not to allow their world to disintegrate into an unliveable hellhole, and, being as we exist to reproduce and evolve (remember that many non-religious types believe this, as they don't attribute the meaning of life to a god they don't believe in) it makes sense that we would have "evolved" natural moral tendencies, to ensure the survival of our race.
They would then further argue that moral codes appear to exist across the board, even in cultures that have had little or no contact with Christianity, both now and in the past. While you may see this as evidence of a far reaching plan on the part of God's, they may not. In fact, they may ask (and you would have a hard time answering this question in a way that would satisfy them), "If the far reaching plan is a product of divine intervention, how do you know that it is divine intervention on the part of the God of Abraham, and not some other widely worshipped deity? Or one not widely worshipped? Or one unknown to Humans? Or not one, but many?"
One thing that religious types bent on communicating their perspectives on God to non-religious types always forget is, non-religious types don't believe in God. Because they don't believe in God, any argument for the existance of God which presupposes the existance of God (even in indirect ways), quotes the bible, or can be explained easily using scientific principles, will not do much good. Until you have successfully converted someone, don't quote the bible. At least, don't quote the bible to prove or demonstrate something to someone -- you may accept it as God's word but they don't, and so you're not going to get anywhere. When should you quote the bible? When you've established (by some other means) that the religious answer is the right one, and you want to show the skeptic that the Bible has the right answer. But in order for them to believe that the Bible's answer is right, they must believe the answer is right before you tell them it comes from the Bible; in order for an appeal to authority to work (e.g, Homosexuality is wrong, because it says so in Leviticus) the listener must already accept the authority in question. If he or she already does, you don't need to do any converting; they're already a Christian.
Regarding the Atheism is stupid suggestion: I have a better way for you to demonstrate that Atheism is just another belief system that isn't any more logical or scientific than any other faith. Your argument is very weak logically, because you try to juxtapose to possibilities that are not at all reasonable. Your argument essentially says, "There are no absolutes. You believe you have a brain, but it's possible you don't; you don't believe in God, but it's possible He exists." The problem here is that any non-r
Japan had a nuclear weapons program that was only a few months behind ours. I have never understood why it has not become common knowledge.
Don't forget, if economic relations with China happened to break off, sure commodity prices would spike for a while. On the other hand, isn't that just about the only scenario that will ever let us see any manufacturing jobs created in the USA?
The only thing dumber than the US dropping the bomb right in the DMZ, would be putting it up there in the boonies, smack on the Chinese border.
People do say military intelligence is an oxymoron, but even the US has learned a hard lesson before, about going too close to that border. I am talking about the surveillance plane incident under the current administration, as well as the Korean war here--it would take a really short memory for them to forget.
Unless generals with memories have all gone the way of Shinseki...
Blah blah blah yeah whatever tnx for your useless opinion. Now sod off.
North Korea has invited diplomats to visit the blast site of what is reported tpo be a "deliberate detonation of a mountain" as part of a hydroelectric project.
The spectacular start of a big project fits with the date of the blast in N. Korea.
Nothing to see here, please move along...
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
-Nancy Reagan used to consult an astrologer regularly. Who know hom much of that influenced Mr Donald's policies.
-Michael Jackson sleeps in an oxygen camera in every hotel where he goes.
-Cherie Blair, the wife of the UK's prime minister has an astrologer friend n which she confides and from who she takes advice. She is one of the more influential lawyers in the country.
I could carry on, but I think the point of your parent poster remains valid.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
-The US is not in war with North Korea.
-North Korea does not sponsor terrorism.
-North Korea does not posses any trheat to the US.
The inclussion of North Korea in the now sadly remembered speech was the result of a derided mind that can't understand political realities because is intoxicated with pseud0-religious messainism.
This guy, Bush, is a dangerous man and it is horribly terryfying t see how many fall for his charms (which ones? I just can't understand).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
1. Gorbachev was asked what brought down the Soviet Union. His answer: "SDI" (Star Wars for all you who don't actually study your own history).
2. The KGB's own files indicated that the economic pressure brought by U.S. military spending was the primary factor that pushed the U.S.S.R. over the edge.
3. Remember, before 1980, the prevailing "wisdom" from America's talking heads and academic elite was that the U.S.S.R.'s economy was a juggernaut that would never fall. Reagan was one of the very few AT THAT TIME who said it was teetering on the brink of destruction. He knew he could push it over the edge. Historical revisionists now say, "Oh, we were saying all along it would fall apart."
4. The carrot DOES NOT WORK with North Korea. Jimmy friggin Carter and Bill Clinton tried it and what happened? North Korea spent all the money and started blackmailing the world again. North Korea is willing starve its entire population if necessary to maintain their communist regime.
From the VOA:
North Korean foreign ministry officials have told British and Chinese diplomats that the explosion was the demolition of a mountain to make way for a hydro-electric plant.
Its public knowledge that there is a 'Patiot Missle Battery in the Allusions, Tiwan, and South Korea.
But lets consider the simple geography. Which is closer to North Korea?
A. 3 Rivers Project.
B. Peking.
C. Soul.
D. Santa Barbera, California.
I'd say the Chinese are Very interested in this set of events.
Hey, Justice League Unlimited episode 1 already predicted it would happen. Except this time we don't have costume heroes to save us from the menace.
I keep hearing about a mushroom-cloud over N Korea. But I don't see any video/pictures, period. Anyone there that owns a camera? And took a picture of it? And has internet access?
...
Well, maybe that's a bit much
Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
Pretty much everything after his second book was too long.
But, yeah, one can learn a lot from Clancy books. When Sum of All Fears came out, I thoroughly enjoyed reading about the physics of the device and explosion, but did wonder whether it made it sound too easy, and would encourage terrorists and other high powered thugs to try their hand at it.
Now about that crater... how big is it? Is it too big to have been the personal destruct device of a Predator?