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The forum post gets it right.

They cannot and did not make tweaks to the microcode. They took the coffee lake microcode blob from Intel and put it into the older gen board. So that board was presenting the right microcode for the CPU.

You're probably asking in the wrong place... There are dedicated places for crazy enthusiasts who do this sort of thing. It's been around for a while. Here is one such place
And yes, it can be purchased commercially.

Is it more profitable to be evil??

YES!

This crushes the vital components inside the device, destroying any information stored on board.

I doubt that last part rather strongly. A local police department may be stumbled getting the child porn out of a phone so destroyed, but an FBI lab will have no problem.

I thought, they'll release a drop of special acid onto the memory chip. But 80 degrees Celsius is not all that hot... Overclockers, supposedly, go up to 85 before their computers crash. The memory ought to avoid permanent damage at even higher temperatures.

Literally the first result on Google is a thread from 2013 asking about the merits of IGZO panels: http://www.overclock.net/t/144...

They have been around much longer than that, just read the Wikipedia article.

Errrr.... ESX is FAKE.

http://www.overclock.net/t/157...

Check this video out by the 'developer' of the program. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... . 2:03 gives it away that it is fake.

Just a note, DBAN doesn't work on SSD's. But a hammer will make short work of them...

Get one of these for around a hundred bucks and overclock the shit out of it to get within a hair's breadth of one of these for a fraction of the price.

Also, read this for details.

I think you are miss understanding my original post. I was responding to someone that was basically saying nobody was in range which was completely incorrect. See the original comment:

Not only are they less expensive for the lifetime of ownership, longer lives, more powerful, more fully featured

We could probably argue for hours and at the end of it we would both be right because each machine is built with slightly different needs in mind. HP, Dell, Lenovo and Apple all make very competitive product each with their own set of features and benefits.

Apple has a well balanced product but there are competitors and it's a matter of budget.

The SSD it uses is pretty cheap, not PCI-E, not that fast. So they're trimming price because the SSD is about 1/3 of the speed of what the Macbook Pro ships, possibly 1/4 of the performance, and cheap SSDs are cheap

This has been a very interesting forum topic on Tom's Hardware. I was unable to find the post but I was actually involved in it. The conclusion was that the PCIE 3.0 SSD are 3 times faster using a bench test. This means that you can apply the 3x rule to any software that is highly optimized for read/writes such as some premium encoding software available out there.

For the rest of your applications (generally speaking), you aren't gaining much since the HD I/O in general only account for 5% of the bottleneck when comparing with a 6GB SATA. What does this mean? If it takes you 10 seconds to load an Excel file, you can improve speed by 2/10th of a second.

The other thing is that the boot time between PCIE and SATA is equal. The SATA SSD also outperforms the PCIE in certain areas and the PCIE really doesn't shine for regular desktop usage. The following benchmark by a reputable reviewer is very much point you to believe the same thing:
http://www.overclock.net/t/148...

I got my CMStorm for $55 after $20 rebate from Newegg. It was shocking how much less the gaming peripheral companies could sell these for.

It's my normal-use typing keyboard that I use for gaming too. I got the Cherry MX Brown. Common types are:
Cherry MX Blue - classic clicky switch, half-way press
Cherry MX Red - pure gaming - key is light (a lot less force to push down) and must be pressed down all the way (to benefit double-tapping)
Cherry MX Brown - In-between blue and red
I initially purchased a Blue (from DAS), but I hated it (too heavy and noisy), and returned it to Amazon. Brown was perfect though. More info about switches here:
http://www.overclock.net/t/491...

My old IBM PS1 PS2 systems had the heavy metal buckling spring keyboards, with replaceable tops. Are these keyboards of the buckling spring type? The IBM ones were somewhat noisy, but at least I could type faster and with fewer finger transpositions (where ei become ie or other side-by-side letter justapositions. (usually left-right hand letter switch occurred if we were typing too fast on a rubber dome type keyboard)

I got my CMStorm for $55 after $20 rebate from Newegg. It was shocking how much less the gaming peripheral companies could sell these for.

It's my normal-use typing keyboard that I use for gaming too. I got the Cherry MX Brown. Common types are:
Cherry MX Blue - classic clicky switch, half-way press
Cherry MX Red - pure gaming - key is light (a lot less force to push down) and must be pressed down all the way (to benefit double-tapping)
Cherry MX Brown - In-between blue and red
I initially purchased a Blue (from DAS), but I hated it (too heavy and noisy), and returned it to Amazon. Brown was perfect though. More info about switches here:
http://www.overclock.net/t/491...

Good question. But I believe the SM841 is equivalent to the 840 Pro, hence not affected by this problem.

No its a real problem, but Samsung hasn't acknowledged it yet: http://www.overclock.net/t/151...

The newly launched Nvidia GTX 980 and 970 support HDMI 2.0 and DP, so these can run 4k@60hz with TV and monitors that support it, I think some Samsung and LG TVs advertise HDMI 2.0 and DP.

Ok, so it's a somewhat reasonable idea to get 60Hz on a TV without spending the cash for a 4k monitor.

here are a couple threads where I found most of the information before I bought it: http://www.overclock.net/t/144... http://hardforum.com/showthrea...

Thanks, I'll have a look at these.

And he failed, because he chose the wrong equipment. According to this (and everythign I could find on AMD website)
http://www.overclock.net/t/1436253/mac-pro-dual-amd-firepro-d300-dual-amd-firepro-d500-dual-amd-firepro-d700-options
the D500 is basically this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195117
which costs $1400.

So yea, if the guy is spending $3400 trying to match a $1400 card, he will fail to beat Apple's pricing, and should probably apply for a position with them.

Nvidia cards bump their performance up full speed (max clock and memory speed) when more than one monitor is attached. Supposedly this is design. . Fortunately, a third-party hack is available so you can have multiple monitors without blowing your energy budget. Sadly, it currently only works with n5xx or lower cards (more recent cards apparently use different power states).

(Context: Why pay $500 for the next Xbox when you can use a gaming PC instead? Controller-friendly games.)

Yes, we've already dealt with that. PC is just as good for that as any console.

How would a platformer like Mega Man series work with a keyboard and mouse?

Never played Mega Man specifically, but I've played plenty of other platforms with keyboard and mouse, and they all worked just as well, or better. Which of course didn't matter, because if I'd preferred to play them with a gamepad, I have a good Logitech USB gamepad that I prefer to anything for any current console.

Or a racing game?

Works great on a keyboard, and - for me at least - better than with a gamepad. Not as well as with a wheel and pedals, but that's not what the discussion is about.

Better yet, how would cooperative platformers such as Contra or Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers or The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon work?

These days, exactly the same as on any console. Hook your PC up to your TV, plug in a couple controllers and pick your seat of choice. Or if you need some extended range to get to the sofa, get a couple wireless controllers. http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/xbox-360-wireless-controller-for-windows

As I see it, each player would have to buy a separate PC and a separate copy.

Again, that's entirely on the developer and/or publisher. More and more console games are going that way too, now that they all have internet capability.

I'd love for you to show me a list of worthwhile controller-friendly PC exclusives. If you don't want to do so on Slashdot, you could always do so here [pineight.com].

Just because I can make such a list doesn't mean it's worth my time to do so. If you think I'm trying to sell you on the PC gaming concept, I'm not. I couldn't care less what you game on. I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws in your arguments. But I'll still be nice. If you actually care about gaming on a PC with a gamepad, here's a couple links to get you started.
http://www.giantbomb.com/xbox-360-controller-support-for-pc/3015-2465/
http://www.overclock.net/t/1030118/pc-gamepad-compatibility-list-update-3-20-2013

I use a RealForce tenkeyless. The key travel, return and feel is absolutely second to none, you won't believe the difference. If you want the "Cadillac" and are willing to spend more for something you'll have for a long time, I'd consider a Topre based keyboard like the RealForce.

Short of that, get any keyboard with Cherry MX switches. I prefer brown but some people have a different preference. Good luck!

Mechanical keyboard guide. Scroll down to ergonomic keyboard section

Few years old, but still contains lots of interesting stuff

http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide

I also understood that USB required some polling whereas PS/2 is a straight hardware interrupt type affair.

quick google... yes, PS/2 is less intensive on your system, faster and doesn't suffer keypress limits and it also doesn't get delayed because some other USB device is hogging the USB bandwidth (which is more important if you've plugged your keyboard into a USB extension port on your monitor)

Hands down the best set of information have ever seen about mechanical keyboards was this forum post on the topic it has everything you want to know about the subject.

More information is required.

Well yeah, that's the point - you don't know why your monitor was rejected and you won't until you turn it on.

Here, there's a thread with more information. Looks like you've got a chance of a little over 80% to get a good one:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1215866/reviewed-400-2560x1440-ips-no-ag-90hz-achieva-shimian-qh270-and-catleap-q270

I do all of that every time I go on the intertubes. I must be depressed?

Well, that means I would do more of all that...but then I'll be more depressed if I do that, so I'll do more of it..

To paraphrase -- The killer app for the tablet will be an air keyboard.

Only if you mean "killer app" as in one that will kill the popularity of tablets. Otherwise it's exactly the opposite of what I meant.

You want to rest your hands while performing input for long periods, and get tactile feedback from a keyboard. Neither is possible with an air keyboard, and you get both gorilla arm syndrome plus an uncertainty in typing.

I badly hate you for forcing me to post this link supporting Microsoft. If you are a troll or a Microsoft shill, I bow down to your powers; we are not worthy of you (your posting history shows remarkable re. Anyway; here goes;

Windows Mobile is still supported; Microsoft's lifecycle page gives its end of mainstream support as August 2013 which means that if a serious security bug becomes widespread they will still "have to" fix it. According to Microsoft's support policy you even have a minimum of a further year where their self help stays up which will help migrate off the no longer supported product.

The simple thing is, that if your business has somehow committed to Windows Mobile, you now know that during 2012 you gently suggest everyone move over to something else and you make an allocation in your 2013 budget to migrate those people that are still using it. This compares with Android lifecycle which seems to be more a matter of speculation than an existing plan in Google's mind. This would would be okay if Android were continually upgraded like Gmail but it isn't. I have no idea how to check when security fixes will stop for my Android phone.

How can I make up for this post? Could I point out that RedHat provides production support for two years longer than Microsoft provide mainline support? Maybe I could point out that if it was Free software, you could buy outside support forever and ever because you have the source code? I should definitely point out that if you collaborate with known felons like Microsoft you shouldn't be surprised and definitely shouldn't complain when they stab you in the back as they have done to most of their important partners in history. I really don't think any of it helps. I still feel dirty inside.

Bulldozer chips are in short supply due to sales. Because they are not able to immediately meet opteron demands, amd is keeping 8150 supply low, binning them as opterons instead, and therefore leaving desktop market undersupplied. read the informative thread below.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1171264/compared-3-different-bulldozer-fx-8120s-want-to-know-the-difference/10

bulldozer 8150s have been in short supply on newegg and amazon. sometimes they are out of stock, and you cant even put them on watchlist.

way too high sales for a 'failed' processor ?

well you are seeing wrong.

in various important applications like photoshop cs5, dozer bests intel's existing sbs, all.

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/1150995-extremetech-analyzing-bulldozer-why-amd-s-25.html#post15475610

moreover, you are able to overclock bulldozer to ramp up your performance. and its possible to go to comfortable 5ghz with air coolers.

try changing cpuid=genuineintel for +47% INCREASE IN SCORES.

changing cpuid to GenuineIntel nets 47.4% increase in performance:
[url]http://www.osnews.com/story/22683/Intel_Forced_to_Remove_quot_Cripple_AMD_quot_Function_from_Compiler_[/url]

PCMark/Futuremark rigged bentmark to favor intel:
[url]http://www.amdzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=135382#p139712[/url] [url]http://arstechnica.com/hardware/reviews/2008/07/atom-nano-review.ars/6[/url]

intel cheating at 3DMark vantage via driver: [url]http://techreport.com/articles.x/17732/2[/url]

relying on bentmarks to "measure performance" is a fool's errand. dont go there.

For the OSS driver you should have a look at this page. Normally, my HD4850 would run a ~75 degree C, with the "low" profile the temperature dropped to 40 degree C and all 2D stuff still worked fine.

With Intel, you're still paying more for the equivalent and next year you'll need to get another motherboard to upgrade that processor because of constant socket changes.

Wikipedia:

Ivy Bridge is the codename for the yet-to-be released 22 nm die shrink of Sandy Bridge. Ivy Bridge processors will be backwards-compatible with the Sandy Bridge platform.[6] According to a leaked Intel roadmap, Ivy Bridge processors will be released in March-April 2012.[7]

...
While Ivy Bridge will be compatible with the Cougar Point chipset motherboards associated with Sandy bridge, Intel will also release a new 7-series Panther Point chipset with Ivy bridge.

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/988606-tpu-ivy-bridge-1155-compatible-panther.html
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4318/intel-roadmap-ivy-bridge-panther-point-ssds

Mechanical keyboards can still be found with a small bit of searching. Check out http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html for a whole bunch of them. I use a Deck Legend and love it.

And another one:

"I literally just bought a new Samsung r540, guess its going back to newegg

Scary

UPDATE

Laptop has the SL directories and all affected files from the writeup
KEYLOGGER INSTALLED"

http://www.overclock.net/laptops-notebook-computers/978296-samsung-keylogger-confirmed-keylogger-installed-pics.html

A guy on overclock just got one of the laptops with it on it: Details here

There's a skilled modder over at the OCN forums that already did an entire case in some kind of cardboard. Looks like it worked out pretty well from what I can tell.

So the rumors are true: according to the article all Sandy Bridge CPUs are Socket LGA 1155, replacing the 18 month old LGA 1366 and 17 month old LGA 1156.

I'm all for bigger and better but it's a pain to throw away a $500 motherboard every 18 months because Intel decided they want to change the socket.

On the other hand the latest 6-core processors from AMD still support 3+ yr old AM2+ motherboards. It's nice to see someone still looking out for the budget shopper.

I have a feeling that people who buy expensive pieces of hardware have tendency to do at least one web search or pop at least one question off at an internet forum about products before they buy. It's not like AMD is putting the or anything...

You really can't build anything like a powerful gaming system or a 6-core processing behemoth, and expect it to remain silent inside of a MiniITX case (it's going to sound like a wind tunnel). But you have the potential to do this in a full-sized case.

You're generally right, but it is possible to fit a quiet full-fledged gaming rig inside of a mini-itx case. Not easy, but possible.

This case was designed in Sketchup and built from scratch using a CNC cut acrylic frame with water cooled internals that include a quad core processor and high end gaming card.

Here's the build log of the case:
buildlog

And since some of the pics seem to be down on the original thread, here's a link to a blog with a summary and pics:
pics and summary

I have nothing to do with case, just stumbled on it when I was researching a mini-itx HTPC and thought the build log was really interesting. My reason for wanting a mini-itx PC is so I could stuff the whole thing into carry on luggage and fly with it if I ever want to. Also I just like the aesthetics for HT purposes.

On a sidenote, while the low TDP atom procs really are ideal for Mini-ITX form factor cases, I don't want my hands tied in case I want to do more with the box like on the fly video transcoding, or audio mixing and editing.

From what I've found there are a couple of non atom routes you can go while still shooting for the lowest possible TDP:
This was a very useful reference: List of CPUs by power dissipation
To get an idea of the relative performance you might be sacrificing for power savings this is useful: benchmark charts Most of the ones I was looking at are in the High to Mid Range CPU Chart.

* So called "mobile on desktop" motherboards which are desktop boards that have sockets that support mobile processors such as the Jetway NC64-LF, which accepts core 2 duo mobile procs with TDP in the 35W range. This is a more expensive route, but easier to cool silently, especially when you consider that manufacturers cram these components into laptops which are way smaller than even mini-itx.
* AMD has several dual core procs in the AMD Athlon X2 line that have a TDP of 45W. They even have a 35W one, but it seems a little difficult to track down, and is probably just an undervolted version of a 45W proc.

I think if you do some planning it's possible to get a reasonably powerful PC into a mini-itx case while still keeping noise levels low. Naturally not ideal for hardcore gamers, but for others if aesthetics is a consideration, you can put together a cool little PC.

Those hexa-core systems are reported to be very over-clockable. The 1090T is observed to be stable at 4.1ghz on stock cooling and the 1055T up to 3.9ghz.

In the end tho, its your memory over-clocking thats most important in gaming. Even the 4-core systems are often fighting for bandwidth at 3ghz+. Thats one of the reasons that Intel is so far ahead on the high end. Their smaller process allows for a much bigger cache. Once AMD moves to the next process size, its going to be a very interesting fight because Intel is nowhere near a drop in process size at this point in time.

If I was doing any sort of heavy calculation type stuff, there is absolutely no way that I wouldn't go with the 1090T. For gaming I would go with the 955 or an i5.

Commonality of hardware is what your going for, and to try
and use software to make up for it results in more work for you/the admin.

Having a base hardware profile for your "workstations" is important , and if you can have hardware commonality between your workstations, and servers, all the better. Your generic pc's can be whatever...

If your pushing your work stations hard, your on a 2 year (or less) upgrade cycle, so unless you overplan, and building expandability, your gonna be spending an average of 2-5k per upgrade cycle, per machine.

As a straw man (since these are my keystrokes), I would pick a server/ws vendor who had the fewest common SKUs for their machines. My fav so far is introtrend/uniwide. They have this clever little daughterboard that sits ontop of the main board that allows an additional 2 CPU sockets, and an additional 16 dimms to be added. You can run the 4 CPU boxes in a 2 cpu mode, with a little bit of fiddling. The advantage is that you can get a bunch of 2x core 8000 opterons cheep of of ebay, and then as the users wine for more power (a year down the road), swap them out for 4x core, or double them up, placeing 4x CPU in each box. Because this is running one generation behind, your gonna save some coin. You get 2 16x slots, that can fit double wide vid cards, not to shabby.

You stock the same spares for your work station, as your servers. If you have to run win7 , then you can only use 2 physical CPU's, (but all 32 memory slots), or of you install 2007r2 you can hit all 4.

Vid cards are another matter, if you have "performance issues" , then your gonna have to get set to play musical drivers, its a fact of life. You can limit the family and supported chipsets (nvidia) for the ones you buy, but only if you get the backing of the people who hold the purse strings.

If you explain to $ holders, that you can save the cost of 3 or 4 computer purchases over the equipment lifetime, and that the upgrades will be "low cost", just getting additional memory and CPU, vs a whole new machine.

You can also let them know that you can keep one spare motherboard around, and fix your servers, or a workstation.

I happen to have 5 of these boxes (the 940 sockets) at home, and should be setting up a few more as they get retired from datacenters, Photoshop rocks with 60gb of memory.

In one place that followed this plan, these machines are in front line use, after 5 years. They started off as 2x cpu's, went to 4x cpu's, the vid cards got SLIsed, than put into slower boxes as better vid cards came out, and then into the servers.

You can do this with any high end bit of kit, just set standards, and follow them, high end server and workstation boards tend to have a multiyear life, the mid end commodity pc's tend to last a year before they fade away . The Tyan n6650W was out in 2008, and should be around for a few more years.
http://www.overclock.net/amd-build-logs/357378-dual-quad-opty-sli-build-tyan.html

If you are unable to set standards and follow them, your kinda screwed anyway.

I'm not sure but I've seen pics first in dx10 then in dx11 and it added some nice visuals alot more detail in the texture of things like stairs out of bricks with some of them misaligned instead of perfect rectangles and alot of detail on the dragon statue. In fact here dx9 dx10 dx11 comparison

All seagate drives appear to have a 3,3V serial interface that can be used to diagnose and modify the various settings/controllers/firmware images on the drive, including the "proper" firmware that is stored in some reserved location on the drive itself (as opposed to the flash based firmware that can only bootstrap the real thing). There's some info how to interface with it here.

Given the sizes reported by those who saw the actual card at CES, they're stating it's ~10.5 inches, similar to the 5870.

I would wait for a GF100 or 5870 refresh first. AMD is rumored to be working on the 28nm refresh that should be available by mid-year. GlobalFoundries has been showing off wafers that have been fabbed on a 28 nm process, and rumors indicate that we'll be seeing 28nm GPUs by the mid-year. I would imagine that nvidia is planning a 28nm refresh of GF100 not long after. Smaller GPU = less power = smaller PCB, so the cards will be shorter.

It'd go faster?

"the process will take a bit 1220 minutes"
OMG, if the clean install is something like 4.8GB then that would be 4.13175854 * 10^10 bits, times 1220 minutes/bit equals 95 840 997.1 years!

I just built a 8x500gb Seagate 7200.12 RAID 10 array using a Dell Perc 5i controller.

I bought the controller for $108 on Ebay. Add the battery for write caching, and 2x 4 port SAS>SATA cables, and I spent a total of $190 on the controller/cables/shipping.

I picked the 500gb drives as they use less power, are extremely silent, run very very cool (case temp is a contstant 39c with 8 drives in a standard mid-tower case), and VMWare ESXi only recognizes up to 2TB per array. The total cost was $600 with shipping for the array.

The Perc 5i has been clocked at 2TB/s+ burst and 500GB/s sustained. For detailed benchmarks see http://www.overclock.net/hard-drives-storage/359025-perc-5-i-raid-card-tips.html

Actually the early 80s. You see, before MSFT started the clone market by selling Compaq MS DOS and thus creating the IBM PC compatible market, things were VERY different. It was 'welcome to proprietary land" where my VIC wouldn't talk to your TRS80 which wouldn't talk to that guy's Apple ][, etc. By creating the IBM PC compatible market it meant that I could be a PC from ANYBODY as long as it was "IBM PC Compatible" all my software would run and my compatible PC could talk to yours and we could share data. This was a big deal at the time because most computers couldn't share squat, creating major lock in and support problems.

So you really have to give credit where credit was due. While MSFT today is one big lumbering clusterfuck, which I blame on a certain marketing drone that needs a good firing, back then they really did help free us from the mess that was proprietary land. Funny now that embrace, extend, extinguish seems to be SOP at MSFT.

And say what you want about Darth Gates, at least the guy knew how to put out a decent business OS. The total bling bling mess that is Vista being dumped onto business users as Vista business is a really bad joke. Which is why there are so many sites showing how to turn 2K3 server into workstation just to get away from that bling bling mess without losing all their apps. MSFT today is just....eeewww. Which is ironic, as that is the noise that my customers make when I tell them Vista is an option on their new PC.

And make certain it doesn't generate any R6034 errors.

Then compare price versus capabilities.

This Gateway FX, with Broadcom wireless sitting two desks down from mine can't get above 7MB/sec over wireless on Windows, meanwhile my Thinkpad R61E with Intel 3945 gets over 40MB/sec running Ubuntu, over the same Wireless.

I find that by buying hardware that supports Free Software, I get higher quality, more stability, and better support.

It also seems that the majority of anecdotes surrounding Windows' poor performance is blamed on poor hardware or badly written drivers. I find that the same is true of Linux.

Yes, this was discussed in an earlier Slashdot story, " RIAA Argues That MP3s From CDs Are Unauthorized", and in a bunch of other places:

* Boing Boing p2pnet reddit Heise Online (German) Truemors BlogRunner/Digital Rights Hugh Casey IDG (Polish) Geek News Central CE Pro Gizmodo TechDirt Read/Write Web Thomas Hawk's Digital Connection TDPRI WhatReallyHappened.com Slyck Root.cz (Czech) Craigslist Forums Hard OCP Wired.com Uneasy Silence Overclock.net Wake World SpaceBattles.com Hydrogen Audio BrickFilms.com Hockey Zombie iLounge Zune Scene AllmanBrothersBand.com Golem (German) PC Magazin (German) Tweakers (Dutch) Mackauf (German) Wake Space Kino-eye.com Digital Copyright Canada Northwest Progressive Institute Louisville Music News Frant

gamewiners says this about it: http://www.gamewinners.com/arcade/StreetFighter2.h tm, and heres a wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guile_(Street_Fighter ). I used to play on a machine where guild actually could do stuff in this "glitched" mode- it was in a 711 down the street from my house. Nintendo and Capcom said it was a "bug" suposedly some of the machines marked as Street Fighter 2 were actually hacked imports. Probably not unlike reports like http://www.overclock.net/other-hardware-mods/1492- arcade-machine-modding.html and http://tech.quarterarcade.com/tech/game.aspx?g=281 4. hope that helps-for what it's worth