Domain: overstock.com
Stories and comments across the archive that link to overstock.com.
Comments · 77
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Re:You're right about the bad policies
Cryptotokens aren't anything special. Their prices are high right now because of money laundering, drugs and ransomeware. If you doubt me ask yourself what you can buy with them.
Ask myself? How about I ask overstock.com instead? They may not sell mortgages, but they do sell all sorts of housewares and other random crap that you'd find in a department store.
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Re:One bitcoin is worth more than gold to idiots
The places that do 'accept' it, for the most part DONT ACTUALLY ACCEPT BITCOIN . . . It's too fucking volatile to hold onto. They mostly pass BitCoin transactions through a third party who then pays your bill with a real financial transaction.
Oh, so sort of like credit cards. You give your card information to the merchant, they go to a 3rd party who then actually handles the shifting of money around.
Outside of malware and exchanges, no one of any importance directly accepts BitCoin for payment, so try again.
Overstock.com, Expedia, Newegg, TigerDirect.com, Shopify stores, Dish... Yeah you're right. None of those businesses are really of any importance. Just some of the largest online retailers or service providers in their particular industry.
If I wanted to pay a bill with Bitcoin, I don't care what the merchant does with it after I make my payment. It's not my problem as long as my account is credited for the payment.
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Re:Maybe I'm wrong but
Those specs seem backwards. Perhaps it had 16MB of ram and an 80MB hard drive?
Extremely unlikely... My 486/33 laptop came with an 80GB HDD and maxed-out at 40MB of RAM if you had the money.
More likely somebody dropped a zero on the storage, and the included HDD was 160MB.
A quick search finds that refurb units came with 1.2GB HDDs:
http://www.overstock.com/Elect...
First hit on eBay says the original HDD was 1.35GB. Others say different, so storage was likely upgraded over the years that model was sold.
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Re:Need to be adjustable
I have a large drafting stool with a saddle seat that I use with my office desk. Maybe that would remedy that problem? This is similar to what I have: http://www.overstock.com/Offic...
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Re:Apple pay at Coke machines and apps for diabete
Stainless steel is more expensive than aluminium and uses a sapphire front.
That's easily within reason to say 200 bucks for a fashion item.
Plus the higher end bands have these precision machined steel bands that are hand polished.
If you look at high end fashion watches, 1k for a high end steel watch is nothing, much less watch bands.
From Breitling:
From TAG Heuer:
Everyone wants to scream at Apple for being a fashion brand, but the truth is is that if they were, they'd be Vertu. All gold and sapphire buttons with no real substance running some bland OS with crappy software on top.
Apple's a *fashionable* brand, and the key difference here is that a lot of people want them because they're nice products that are nice to use and look and feel nice. It's approaching consumerism from the other side where you're wanted not because you're exclusive or anything insane or insidious like that, but because you do what you do very well.
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Re:BTCWhile that is the route the DoJ is currently pursuing, I'm pretty sure that they will find it rather impotent:
KYC rules require money-related services to be able to identify all their customers, and self report ‘suspicious activity’ that can be signs of anything from money laundering to terrorist financing. In the traditional financial sector, this makes money laundering much more difficult (although nowhere near impossible). This is because, in order to interact with the modern financial system and transmit money electronically, you need to use a third-party service such as a bank, which are easy points of regulation.
However, with bitcoin it’s an entirely different story. No one needs a third-party service to own, spend, or send bitcoins anywhere in the world. All that is needed is an open-source wallet, of which there are plenty available to download.
... The real problem is whether governments will accept this new reality and plan appropriately, or continue to fight it. Regulatory bodies can’t fit bitcoin into current regulatory framework. The two are simply not compatible, and that has nothing to do with any libertarian sentiments in the community. It’s fact.The degree of oversight government now has in the traditional payments arena is impossible to replicate with bitcoin...
Source: Why Know-Your-Customer rules won't work with Bitcoin
So unless the DoJ wants to argue that Overstock.com is a "financial service" company merely for accepting Bitcoin, or that the businesses which do convert Bitcoin into traditional currency need to implement some sort of "Know Your Customer's Customers" third party regulation, the tightening of existing regulation will have virtually zero effect. -
Re:To the moon!
The question is what can you GET for them... Right now? Not much.
You really need to update your anti-Bitcoin propaganda. Between Bitcoinstore, Overstock.com, TigerDirect, Fancy, eGifter, and Gyft you can get quite a bit for a bitcoin these days, and that's not counting all these other merchants:
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Re:Reply to Comment - Beta, why no default subject
Why is this lie perpetually getting repeated? Hell, some moron even modded it up. Overstock (and Tigerdirect, etc) do not accept bitcoins as payment. You might want to tell that to Overstock and Tiger Direct, then, who both proudly proclaim that they do accept BTC as payment.
They can proclaim whatever the hell they want to; they themselves state, on their website in multiple places, that bitcoin transactions are routed through coinbase or similar.
But no doubt, you know better than they do, so carry on with the Bitcoin hate.
When we go to the zoo and comment on the monkeys flinging poo at each other we don't call it "hate". We call it "scorn".
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Re:Reply to Comment - Beta, why no default subject
Why is this lie perpetually getting repeated? Hell, some moron even modded it up. Overstock (and Tigerdirect, etc) do not accept bitcoins as payment.
You might want to tell that to Overstock and Tiger Direct, then, who both proudly proclaim that they do accept BTC as payment.
But no doubt, you know better than they do, so carry on with the Bitcoin hate. -
overstock.com?
I think you mean "O.co".
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MIT: Reinventing the wheel since the year Tet
This. Not spam, just demonstrating that the tech is already out there.
I've got a home built one that uses a Peltier heat pump and a solar pile (OK it only works during the day), it pulls in 3 pints a day of pure immediately potable water. Makes the best coffee.
;) -
How technology promotes whirled peas
How technology promotes whirled peas:
http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Waring-PBB209-Professional-Bar-Blender/4107234/product.html
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Re:Thousands?
Thousands to access the dock connector? What does tha mean? You can get one at OverStock.com for 6 and half American dollars.
Or did you mean developers pay thousands by having to buy licenses and Apple machines to develop on? Confusing. Unclear.
Wow. Are you really confused? Yes. It means they have to buy a very expensive license to make a product that uses the Apple dock connector. There isn't any confusion for anybody else, just you.
Um, i didn't get that either, cain. Thanks for asking. For non iPhone fan boys the phrase "having to pay thousands to access to the Apple Dock Connector" is less than clear.
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Re:Thousands?
Thousands to access the dock connector? What does tha mean? You can get one at OverStock.com for 6 and half American dollars.
Or did you mean developers pay thousands by having to buy licenses and Apple machines to develop on? Confusing. Unclear.
Wow. Are you really confused? Yes. It means they have to buy a very expensive license to make a product that uses the Apple dock connector. There isn't any confusion for anybody else, just you.
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Thousands?
Thousands to access the dock connector? What does tha mean? You can get one at OverStock.com for 6 and half American dollars.
Or did you mean developers pay thousands by having to buy licenses and Apple machines to develop on? Confusing. Unclear.
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Re:Perhaps nobody else cares?
but besides them who else really wants it? 2560x2048 resolution doesn't exactly help me see my web pages or documents any better - in fact it can make them downright hard to see, so why do I need it?
I would love a monitor with that high a resolution. I do a lot of high-detail CAD stuff with Catia at work; on a normal LCD monitor it looks like crap. Fortunately, I have a monster CRT running at some kind of ridiculous resolution, and the images look clear and clean without horrible jaggies. The higher the resolution is, the better for something like this.
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Re:Strange limitation
My iPhone charger delivers 5 watts and it takes hours before it's charged.
While the charger may be rated at 5 watts output, the phone battery isn't charging at a full 5 watts if its taking hours. The battery in the iPhone is rated at 5.7 watt-hours (3.7 volts, 1500 mAH). Even if we estimate the charging process at only 75% efficient, that should charge it from zero to full in 1.5 hours. Here is a picture of a replacement Apple 3G battery showing the specs. http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/28/688/L12455938.jpg
Still, I agree that 5-watts is a little low for some devices. I would have preferred they aimed to match the USB 3.0 spec of 9 watts.
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Re:I don't use these services...
'PyroMosh purchased the Deluxe 12" Ass-Ramming Dildo from Anal Enterprises'
Have you been reading my facebook? I have to remember to set that to private.
Seriously, though I gravely misunderstood what this beacon was. I thought it was just some API hooks that would let advertisers run queries against facebook posts presumably to deliver targeted ads or some other such nonsense. I had no idea it was what it was.
That said, from what I understand, it uses a cookie to identify one's ID. Since the cookie only contains user ID data, and logging in is not necessary, would it not have been possible (even trivial) to forge activity history for any arbitrary facebook user? As long as you know their ID, you can have them purchase the 'Deluxe 12" Ass-Ramming Dildo from Anal Enterprises' as many times as you please.
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Re:Aah... but...
My hired help could also carry one of these!
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MagicJack
I don't know the feasibility of using this over there, but if you have access to a computer you could look into a Magicjack.
Basically, you plug the Magicjack into a USB jack and it acts like a Voip gateway for a phone. You can use a regular phone or a computer Speaker/Microphone to call. Since you can use a local number for your jack, if you family calls you it will not be long distance. It also supports Caller-ID and voicemail. combine with this phone, and you got a lightweight solution. Although that handset isn't looking too stellar review wise.
It's not the cheapest solution though. Magicjack costs 39.95 for the unit which comes with 1 year of service. After that it's 19.95 a year. Also, the Military may frown on software being installed on their PC's. If you are bringing a notebook or Netbook you shouldn't have a problem though. Third, bandwidth could be an issue too, since it needs a minimum of 128 kb/s to function.
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Re:me no RTFA
With one of these.
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times 1E17 -
Re:Good.
I did not say taking payments was unnecessary to eBay's business. I said requiring customers to use one particular payment model that is owned by eBay is not necessary to eBay's auction business. Their auction business would survive essentially unchanged if PayPal were swapped out by any other payment processor. There is no inherent technical reason requiring a tie of the use of eBay's services to the use of PayPal's services, hence making it an unlawful service bundle (again, in US law).
I don't think it would be illegal in the US. Take this court case, for example. In that case, the court decied that the market wasn't "cellophane" it was the more general "flexible packaging material". In the eBay/PayPal case, the market isn't "payment processing for online auctions", it's the more general "payment processing". Also relevant, one could argue the market isn't "online auctions", it's the more general "auctions", or even "buying stuff online", or even just "buying stuff".
Also, just to name a few, Overstock Auctions, Webidz, and QxBid are auction sites which aren't eBay, and don't require PayPal payments, so it's a little hard to believe eBay and PayPal are a monopoly even in the "payment processing for online auctions" market.
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Re:Why no solid competitors?
Well, there are some alternatives to eBay. The ones that I know about that people are happiest with are really niche auction sites like etsy.com, which is an auction site for handmade crafts. Apparently eBay sucks for selling those as bidders don't appreciate the time spent on them. Those who wander to etsy do... so while you have a smaller pool of bidders, the overall amount bid tends to be higher. (That's what I'm told by my friend who 1) teaches a class on eBay and 2) sells jewellery online.)
After looking at the eBay fee increases (and doing the math to show a friend how much that really meant even on small items), I'd certainly be willing to check the fees and my luck over at auctions.overstock.com. Too bad Yahoo Auctions closed last year. -
Re: No Blue Light special on Blue Rayalso means that I don't have to allocate space in my house for storing an ever-growing collection of small disks in huge boxes
I just pop the disks out of the box and put them in a CD binder...
http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/3/L986895.jpg
...then give away the boxes. I've got well over 100 DVDs in a fraction of the space the boxes used to take up.As for buy vs. rent, most of the DVDs I buy are used (pardon me, "previously viewed"), so the price point is about the same.
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Re:A new HIGH for SlashdotMore Chewbacca Defense, Mr. Coward, ventured (as always, without accurate and supporting quotes) in an attempt to confuse the casual passby with Big Lies.
Check it out:
Overstock.com Celebrates Receipt of SEC Subpoena
SALT LAKE CITY, May 9, 2006
/PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- Overstock.com(R) (Nasdaq: OSTK) announced that today it received a subpoena from the Securities and Exchange Commission concerning issues and requesting information outlined below.Overstock.com Chairman and CEO Patrick Byrne said, "I may be the first CEO in history to celebrate receiving an SEC subpoena. Some of the requests suggest the whispering of the blackguards, but I remain unconcerned about their hokum. In truth, I am gratified to see that the SEC is looking into the issues about which I have been speaking: I believe our capital markets are broken in a deep way, our system of corporate voting and governance is a hoax, the savings of Americans are being drained through our financial system's fissure of unsettled trades, and the system appears to be cracking around Overstock.com (of course, I could be proved wrong if they would force the settlement of, or even reveal the size of, all unsettled trades in OSTK, which I believe number from 7 to 30 million shares). While some of the miscreants file frivolous delaying motions, and others schmooze with hedge funds and write what they are told to write (yet call themselves 'journalists' to shield their perfidy behind the First Amendment), I on the other hand applaud the SEC's actions and eagerly anticipate my chance to get these issues into court."
The subpoena requests a broad range of documents, including, all documents relating to the Company's accounting policies, targets, projections, estimates, recent restatement, new technology systems and their implementation, and communications with and regarding analysts. In addition, the subpoena requests all information relating to the filing of its complaint against Gradient Analytics, Inc., communications regarding shareholders who did not receive the Company's proxy statement in April 2006, communications with shareholders, and communications regarding short selling, naked short selling, purchases and sales of Company stock, obtaining paper certificates, and stock loan or borrow of Company shares. The Company intends to review the subpoena and respond in due course.
http://investors.overstock.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=13
1 091&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=858248&highlight=When I put that out, the shills made a big fuss about a CEO "celebrating" such with the SEC. A year later (this June) the Party Line they were instructed to parrot shifted, and now they were supposed to pretend I hid it. Which is pretty hard, given the existence of that press release from last year, but they manage just by repeating it over and over, as you have done.
You guys just fabricate new allegations like that, over and over, without ever putting up: you folks, on the other hand, have been unmasked time and again, and so just create new sock puppets when you do.
Patrick
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BN is overpriced
Save some money:
Amazon.com $32.99
Overstock.com $31.34
Half.com $28.95 -
Re:bookpool
overstock has it cheaper than bookpool.
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Re:Digital kanji numeral watch
I have this same watch and favor it above all others. Same as parent, I have had a lot compliments on this watch: more than on any of the others I have (even my Movado). I've owned the watch for over three years, seems pretty sturdy.
Check this link for a picture (the blue on my watch is much deeper than the photo)
http://www.overstock.com/sm-fossil-mens-big-tic-bl ue-dial-stainless-steel-watch--pg-proframe_pi-1492 420_ti-82124.html
There's also a model with a black face and a dragon etched on the glass. Anyway, the watch is part of the 'Big Tic' series by Fossil if you want to Google it. -
Land of the Lost World in Space
Lost Season 1
Lost where? In space? Or Land of the Lost? What about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World? Oh, it appears you're looking for Walt Disney's Lost. One word: Bleh.
I'm normally getting about 35Kb/s.
Except remember that BitTorrent reports rates in bytes, not bits. A rate of 35 KB per second is better than you'd get on HTTP.
I'd say thats scaling pretty well.
:D [assuming sarcasm]Just go to bed and it'll speed up. Often the Peers will remain online overnight, and they'll turn into Seeds, freeing up other Seeds to send to you. If a lot of Seeds jump off before they build up a share ratio, then you're on the wrong tracker.
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Re:7 Years and Running...
I'm not sure your actual rationale for the boycott. "doing crap like this" is rather vague. They provide good selection and great deals, they provide a very good service for their corporate customers (Target, Walmart, etc.). I guess maybe you'd rather they get sued (like Apple recently) by some guy in Asia who's hoarding patents rather than prepare now for that problem facing them and others...
I'm surprised you mentioned Buy.com, which has had a 2.93/10 customer satisfaction rating at www.resellerratings.com. I would recommend Overstock.com, but they also have rather poor ratings there. -
Re:It's not DRM, nor would I buy it if it was.
As far as sale prices go, it's always amusing to watch everyone flock to Amazon and B&N. My general advice is to go to AddAll Book Shopping Bot . Now, if Amazon happens to float to the top, so be it, but I'm a comparison shopper.
If you want to see sad, go to the first site listed for the Potter #6 book. (Overstock) and look at the "reviews". Yes, there are "reviews" (believe it or not). Here's one of them <snicker>: Reviewer: lara from connecticut -- Harry potter is back again..on his 6th year...this book is bound to be... AMAZING!!!! Harry is coming closer and closer to his last year in Hogwarts, now we all await what surprises JK Rowling has waiting for us. This book is going to be the best!!!!</snicker>
WRT the marketing angle, if you aren't going to the book store to pick up a copy, turn on the local news - and you'll see what everyone else sees when they're picking up a copy: A Harry Potter FreeForAll Party.
I always thought the tv coverage of Star Trek conventions showed a lot of sad geeks, generally adults. With the Potter Parties, you've got entire families (sometimes nuclear and extended). All that's left is a Rocky Horror-like script to act out, props to throw around, and a dance ala The Time Warp. By the time they get this put together, the 7th, and final novel will be out and it will be for naught.
Several weeks ago, someone in the media was [supposedly] offered a printed, bound copy of Potter #6 for $90k/US but they didn't take them up on it. I was rather disappointed. I figured they'd do it to expose a security leak. I wonder if they'd bought it for $90k, then put it on eBay, would they cover their original expense?
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Re:Oh, Alice, you treat me well...
Or pick up a copy. No, it's not an affiliate link.
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Re:$70 for a mouse?
Just google it, comes up as $36.95 from http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROD
U CT&PROD_ID=1498041&cid=25608&fp=F. The MSRP is $59.99. I have no idea where they came up with $70 unless they are including tax in the price as well. -
Re:Bluetooth
I've got the Microsoft Bluetooth Explorer mouse for my laptop, and wouldn't want anything else.
I don't notice any lag on it, but I don't really play any FPS games either. The only annoying thing about it is that if you don't use it for several minutes, it goes into sleep mode, and it takes about half a second to wake up when you start using it again. Other than that, I don't have any complaints about it.
I was originally skeptical about the battery life on the mouse, because it doesn't have any way to turn it off. It sits in my computer bag, constantly on from moving around in there. Even with that, the batteries typically lasts about a month before having to replace them (2 AA).
Every now and then, Fry's will have them in stock for $79, but I have seen them on Overstock.com for $50, with $1 shipping. I think a lot of stores don't carry them because PCs with bluetooth aren't all that common. Most laptops that have bluetooth are Apple, and most Apple owners wouldn't want a Microsoft mouse, so it is a niche market for this mouse.
Also, I think MS made a stupid mistake by including a bluetooth dongle in the package. Most people who are paying more for a bluetooth mouse already have a bluetooth receiver in their computer, and are paying the extra so they don't have to use an RF mouse that requires a dongle. They should skip the dongle, and lower their price some.
Also, I just checked Overstock.com. Right now, they have the MS Bluetooth Desktop Elite for $79, or just the bluetooth mouse for $38 with $2 shipping.
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=ENDEC A&SEC_IID=8770&N=0&keywords=bluetooth&x=0&y=0 -
Shuttle Replacement
I hope it's smaller and runs cooler than my Dell Desktop Replacement
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Make OpenOffice.org sexy!
A lot of geeks and non-geeks would love to switch to OpenOffice.org if it had a sexy commercial like "It's all about the O...", but with a theme like "It's all about the OOo...".
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Too expensive...
As mentioned previously, shop somewhere else than BN.com. Try fetchbook.info, which is a search engine for new and used books from 110 bookstores.
What I gleaned was that it's sold used at half.com for under $25 shipped and new at Overstock.com for less than $30 shipped. -
Timely...
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Re:I have a creative player
The Rio Karma has ogg and flac support plus ethernet, but it's an HD-based player. I want one real bad, but even at $230 it's out of my price range (to say nothing of the $500 40GB model).
I have to admit, though, I have a 128MB MuVo and my wife has a 256MB MuVo TX. The Exact Audio Copy and LAME programs work really well, and MP3 is okay when I'm not in a purist mood. :) -
Re:Money money money money...
Save $2 more and buy it here
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Re:Close, but no cigar.
Props to Siemens for being the first to jump on this bandwagon, but why still use the 'plain old phone'?
1: Cause a spiffy bluetooth headset doesn't have a keypad to dial a phone number.
2: Because the cost of a plane old phone is cheap. Hell a cordless phone start under $30.00.
3: A phone isn't going to fall off your desk and get run over by your chair. -
Re:FYI
Overstock.com gotcha beat.
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Re:Deja Vu
Here's a buzzword for you: Sabine Ehrenfeld
Sabine: Sometimes it's about the gold!
Usenet genius: Oh really?
Sabine: Yes.
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War, Peace, or Something Else?
I keep hearing comments from people angry at Bush because we are in a false or fake war. I do not understand why people believe that if we are not in war in IRAQ that it means that we are at peace with the world.
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFR AME&PROD_ID=998048/
I hate to break it to you, but war is inevitable. I am realistic and not idealistic. The question is that where is the war, in IRAQ or in the US? If we do not actively fight terror, evil, or any of our enemies, we will be on defense when they decide to invade our country, safety, and families.
Honestly, if you have been paying attention at all, after Iraq, we will probably be going to war with Iran and also with North Korea. With these threats against my family, my culture, my life style, and my comfort, we need to stay on the offensive. My football coach always used to say "The best defense is a good offense."
I say vote Bush for all of the above reasons.
"Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom, and then lost it, have never known it again."
- Ronald Reagan -
Re:Obligatory Prior Art:eBay has grown to be one of the largest (if not the largest) communities on the net, and some of the things we understand as "social networking" have certainly played a role. However, if you look at what Overstock or better yet eGrupos have done, they go further in expanding the concept. In eBay you cannot have a list of your contacts, find how you're connected to someone else, or form social circles along with the ability to buy or sell things online. In fact, don't be surprised if eBay starts to do some of these things.
After all, the rating system of eBay is the simplest of things, and personaly I grew bored of watching things like "A++++++++++++ great ebayer". That helps you decide if a person can be trusted or not, but I wouldn't go as far as defining that as "social networking".
Buy.com is taking advantage of the fuzz created along the term "social networking", and that's ok with me, but trying to monopolize on the concept is not a good thing. And by reading the article you can clearly see that they're more excited about having filed for those patents, than about the service itself. Now that's a big no-no for smart consumers.
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Re:FEC announces regulating politics on the intern
Better yet, Fahrenheit 9/11 first, then Fahrenhype 9/11 next. Or they can just buy it.
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Re:FEC announces regulating politics on the intern
Better yet, Fahrenheit 9/11 first, then Fahrenhype 9/11 next. Or they can just buy it.
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Alternatives to replacing Disney DVD
The quality won't be the same as a drue DVD copy as you have to deal with extra D/A A/D conversions but it should be more than adequate for making backup copies for your kids to watch Disney videos 10k times on so they don't scratch up your $18 original.
Perhaps when they scratch up Pinocchio you could get them this or this or this or this (but definitely not this or hell no). That's the nice thing about Disney animated movies: as half of them are based on public domain stories, there are a lot of independently produced copycat versions you can buy. Heck, you can skip funding the lobbying effort for the future Chastity Bono Act and just buy the copycat titles in the first place; kids who are young enough won't be able to tell the difference.
And when they scratch up that fish movie you could get a completely different Nemo movie to help them kick the Disney addiction. Just don't confuse it with this or this.
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Alternatives to replacing Disney DVD
The quality won't be the same as a drue DVD copy as you have to deal with extra D/A A/D conversions but it should be more than adequate for making backup copies for your kids to watch Disney videos 10k times on so they don't scratch up your $18 original.
Perhaps when they scratch up Pinocchio you could get them this or this or this or this (but definitely not this or hell no). That's the nice thing about Disney animated movies: as half of them are based on public domain stories, there are a lot of independently produced copycat versions you can buy. Heck, you can skip funding the lobbying effort for the future Chastity Bono Act and just buy the copycat titles in the first place; kids who are young enough won't be able to tell the difference.
And when they scratch up that fish movie you could get a completely different Nemo movie to help them kick the Disney addiction. Just don't confuse it with this or this.
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For those who wish to buy this book
Cheapest price I've found is $23.52 (this includes shipping) from here. Now the question is... PHP or Perl? Which do I choose? (Old debate I know.)