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I found this list of numbers from paypal sucks. http://www.paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtm l I think it would be possible to /. the phone systems! It would certainly be terrible if everyone in the company recieved 1000 messages in their voicemail overnight! Call away! I've already left 5 messages! P.S. I think that paypal can "see" what number you are calling from. So unless you are not a PayPal member, use a calling card, payphone or block your ID in some other fashion! -Z

Check out http://paypalsucks.com/ They have more about how your waive your credit card rights.

I am an avid ebayer - and lets face it, without Paypal, you're not going to get very far trading on ebay. So I use Paypal out of necessity (yeah, I know i'm sad) and yes, I feel sick just thinking about it!

Putting ridiculous fees, poor customer service, and numerous loop holes aside - I just don't trust them! From my experience, you are never actually 'covered' as they keep telling us, and when you do get bitten by a scammer - you may as well just bang your head against a brick wall instead of trying to get your money back from them!

I for one, would never CHOOSE to use them. They are another one of these big corporations who just don't care about the little people, but expect everyone to log on and happily give over all their credit card details.... and then charge them for the privilege.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/ anyone?

Without ebay, Paypal would come tumbling down in seconds. No wonder ebay are making excuses to block google payments and alike!

morehawes

With an auction, you have the added risk of having to trust the seller to accurately represent the condition of the product, and I build that added risk into the purchase price that I'm willing to pay.

1. According to PayPal accepting their ToS (Terms of Service) in effect means you waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws if you want to use their service, and that you may not issue a chargeback for unauthorized use of your credit card and PayPal account, or if you do, then they have the right to limit your account.

how about these folks? or these? or perhaps this group or maybe one of the paypal horror-story contributors on this site?

but chances are it was probably just this guy.

Just refer to http://www.paypalsucks.com and you'll hear the most horrible stories from their customers. Paypal is really ruining lives by offering poor security, as much for the seller and the buyer. With all the scams over eBay and other sites, they MUST enhance their support and make online shopping a safe market. Trust my personnal experiencessss, they really lack professionalism when it comes to fraud protection. Francis Robichaud

One will find lots of them over at http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Ron

So why hasn't http://www.paypalsucks.com/ [paypalsucks.com] been sued out of existance? If you do business with someone and do get ripped off, you SHOULD be within rights to let people know.

Yes, absolutely. You just have to be prepared to defend your actions in court if you do so.

Claiming that you did business with someone and that they ripped you off is not "expressing your opinion", it is deliberately trying to hurt someone's livelihood.

So why hasn't http://www.paypalsucks.com/ been sued out of existance? If you do business with someone and do get ripped off, you SHOULD be within rights to let people know.

The problem here is we don't know what transpired between Bock and Scheff to cause the rift. Obviously if it was intentional defamation, that's one thing, but one has to hear both sides of the story to draw a conclusion. Scheff seemed to take advantage of the situation.

What gets me is this part:
Court papers that Scheff and her attorney David H. Pollack mailed to Bock were returned to Pollack's office in Miami.

They made no followup attempt? One would imagine that someone decent would continue trying to serve the papers so they're aware of the case. Obviously the reporters had no problem finding her...

Didn't PayPal (supposedly) increase their customer service efforts a year or so ago? There's an old story which needs to be dug up.

The mode of the customer service isn't the problem, it's the quality. Even if there are live operators, that won't make any difference if they keep locking accounts for no apparent reason, or for reasons the customer isn't at fault for, or if the operators can't take reasonable action without customer acrobatics. The attitude and practices at PayPal are what need to be changed.

Of course, instead of lawsuits, websites and complaints, the easiest solution is to stop using PayPal. By the time I had made three Paypal transactions my account had been locked twice and I gave up on it; why use (and pay for) something if it offers no convenience?

Be very careful about using numbers posted in forums on the net (and this includes ours.)

• Their toll free number is (888) 221-1161 - personally verified by experience of the admin of this site.
• Their NEW regular telephone number is: (650) 864-8000 - (verify)
• An automated phone number is 402-935-7733 (verified by admin)
• Another regular telephone number is: (402)935-2050 - (verify)
• 408 376 7400 fax: 408-376-7514 (Verified by Whois)
• One of their fax numbers is: (402)537-5765 - (unverified, but probably good)
• Another fax number is: (650)251-1101 - (verified via whois search)
• The entire block of phone numbers from (402)935-2100 to (402)935-2299 seems to be all PayPal's. This list of PayPal phone numbers was created by a user of PayPalSucks.com.
• PayPal UK is 08707 307 191 (UK national call rates apply)
• PayPal UK FAX is 020 8605 3001. (verify by entering PayPal's registration number which is 226056.)

Actually, Paypal can take all your cash too. I was going to use them for my[shameless plug] locals-only dating site but upon seeing how freakin' limiting they are and how quickly/easily they can deem a site to be "adult content" no matter how G-rated it actually is, I went with other options, especially since I was considering branching out into more adult-oriented content eventually. Google wasn't one of them since at the time they hadn't decided to allow dating sites and may not have at this time.

PayPal is not a bank. They can practically freeze your account (and money) indefinitely and no regulation can stop them from doing so.

Just go to http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and see how often they've done that in the past.

I really wish Sourceforge (which is also owned by OSTG like Slashdot) would stop supporting PayPal and choose a more reliable service to handle project donations

Don't trust your money to PayPal. All regulations that keep regular banks from just stealing from you do not apply for PayPal.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

there are still pleanty of suckers that assume if they have your phone number you must be legit.

google checkout than the shoddy piece of crap that PayPal is. PayPal has a terrible record for privacy. These are human beings making these decisions----they will be chuckling about this forever---until someone slaps them where it hurts ... googlemastercard.com? "eBay provides a number of non-paypal alternatives and it's not about monopolistic practices. They have a list of accepted vendors on their website which includes Allpay.net, Bidpay, Canadian Tire Money, cash2india, CertaPay, Checkfree.com, hyperwallet,com, Moneybookers.com, Ozpay.biz, Payko.com, Paymate.com.au, Propay.com, and XOOM. In addition, any merchant-type VISA/Mastercard/etc account is valid, as is a direct exchange of checks, wire transfers (bank to bank), etc."

eBay specifically states that any "new" service without a track record of privacy protection and customer service will be scrutinized and most likely prohibited until it has some history.

Paypal has some history

I'm shocked they specifically allow Canadian Tire Money.

While my stance is more moderate than yours, I think you do have a point. I wouldn't label the users in question "Linux zealots" --perhaps Linux "enthusiasts"? In any case, the point is that if you want people to develop for the Linux platform, the developers need to be assured of some Return On Investment --but "Linux zealots" are not to blame for the lack of this.

I agree that, with the adequate-to-good quality Zero Cost Software (0$S --that first character is a zero) often distributed with Linux, there has come to be an expectation that all software on open-source software operating systems will be zero-cost (or "OSS OS's = 0$S").

In a sense, this is not that different from proprietary operating systems like MS Windows, where presumably Some Guy who buys a computer that comes with MS Windows would expect to pirate MS Word from his neighbour. Commonly used software is 0$S for the home user, too.

The difference is that, in addition to the ubiquitous pirated software, MS Windows also enjoys a legitimate and money-making market in the business world, where corporations really do pay money for MS Office or PhotoShop. Based on this, the software can also be sold in boxed sets at your local computer store: flashy bulky boxes labeled "PhotoShop v99.9!" that contain just a CD-ROM and filler. But the home consumer is not where most of their money is made; it's just a sideline --call it low-cost advertising, if you will.

Competing against this are two types of software from the OSS world: traditional proprietary-license type software written for the OSS platform like Linux, and software that's OSS itself.

OSS-licensed software can't make money from the sale itself, and needs some other sort of income scheme, such as selling the support service, or contracting with Big Corp to write/modify the software. For both of these, you have to work for your money: to earn twice as much, you have to work twice as much --take twice the number of support calls, or write twice the software. If you stop supporting, or writing, your income dries up.

Compare this with proprietary-license software, which makes effortless money once you've made the up-front investment of creating the software. As more people buy the software --a mere click on your webpage or a cheque from some small business-- money automatically comes to you. To earn twice as much, you *don't* need to work twice as much, and if you stop working, money *still* comes to you! You could be earning money while vacationing, or sleeping, or studying to enter law school or something.

Is it any wonder that the starry-eyed developer would much rather sell proprietary software than OSS? But even if we consider proprietary software on OSS platforms, we have another unrelated problem: compared to the MS Windows platform, the market for other platforms is puny. Let's put any Linux bias on hold as we ask: would you rather sell your software to the MS Windows market or the MacOS market?

The smart folk here will answer: "Both!" It turns out that this is one potential answer to getting Linux market share. The sibling post, snarkily disagreeing with the parent post with the sarcastic reference to how Unreal Tournament for Linux has dealt Epic Games a death blow (not!), actually illustrates this point: they aim for the big market (MS Windows) and make low-cost forays into the side markets. Cross-platform programming is something I'm pinning my hopes on for boosting the quality of Linux apps.

One other way I can think of to boost developers' Return On Investment is to have a reliable micropayment system, where people can effortlessly pay $0.75 for OSS. Unfortunately, we don't yet have a good system since PayPal sucks. But micropayments would extend the market reach enough to spur significant software development, especially if you can multiply that market by making the software cross-platform.

That's why I'm heartened to hear that KDE will be coming out for MS Windows as we

Let's hope there won't be a need to create more sites like this, http://www.paypalsucks.com/. Because Paypal works pretty good and what seems to be what people complain the most about is the poor handling of fraud and disputes.

Sorry for the Subject, but thats the name of the web page with lot of interesting info on Why dont use PayPal anymore.
Check it PayPal Sucks

Google has the AdSense thing, that makes GBuy really interesting for advertisers who (IMO) will not doubt for support GBuy if they are advertising with Google...
Now must be good for the users/buyers, i want to test it.

Perhaps they can make a paypal that actually doesn't suck. After all Google isn't supposed to be evil.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

PayPal is as much a proper bank as Microsoft is a company producing quality software.

Apart from the usual barrage of reasons to not like paypal, they are hokey in exactly the same way as an AOL email. Anyone can get one, no technical or professional qualifications needed. It's impossible to seem in any way ahead of your competition with a system that a teenager can sign up for in ten minutes.

Is that eBay will be forced to stop screwing their customers http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and improve their service.

Oh the joys of competition.

Yes, I should understand how the PayPal service works.

"Stop being just another /. PayPal troll."

Thank you, Anonymous Coward, for your helpful advice on Slashdot trolling.

"unless you write down on your phone that #1 you linked it to a PayPal account, and #2 your PIN, then you should be fine."

I've known Muslim women who were more streetwise than you.

Here's a tip. Next time you're out in a public place, and you use a credit card or Interac card, or even loudly saying "I'll pay for this" and then waving your phone around, look around you. Think about just how many people could be watching you and what they can see. Then ask yourself just how "fine" you are.

To hear about the sheer number of horror stories the parent talks about, go here: http://www.paypalsucks.com/ I've been ripped off once, but it was a small amount. PP's customer service was in the toilet. All automated, impossible to get to a real person. And no, they do not have FDIC backing or anything. So they are free from the rules that constrain most banks/require them to insure your money. They have a monopoly and thus get away with this. Once that starts eroding, they'll actually give a shit. Just look at IE...M$ has just started working on IE7. When FF was non-existent, the world had to live for years with a stagnating standards-incompliant browser. Something will have to break eventually, and let's hope ebay doesn't have too much leverage in this market (competition is building, but it could be growing a lot more than it is).

If you'd bothered to follow the http://www.paypalsucks.com/ you'd know about the alternative.

The alternative: http://www.995merchantaccounts.com/

Read through http://www.paypalsucks.com/ first.

If you'd bothered to follow the http://www.paypalsucks.com/ you'd know about the alternative.

The alternative: http://www.995merchantaccounts.com/

Read through http://www.paypalsucks.com/ first.

So, what's wrong with PayPal?
What do I need to know about PayPal and what about the lawsuit?

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

1. According to PayPal accepting their ToS (Terms of Service) in effect means you waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws if you want to use their service, and that you may not issue a chargeback for unauthorized use of your credit card and PayPal account, or if you do, then they have the right to limit your account. Is this legal? We don't know. But it's how Paypal operates. See my credit card waiver page for more information.

2. Their customer service is horrible. They used to hide their telephone number, (intentionally - by their own admission) and only provided support via "form" emails:

"As for the customer service, Sollitto said they intentionally make the phone number very difficult to find in order to save costs."

This is confirmed in the book "PayPal Wars". If you have a problem, you are at their mercy! (And you will eventually have a problem.) The only reason their number can be found now is because they were forced to by law (EFTA Electronic Funds Transaction Act) due to complaints from users of this website. You can also click on our FAQs page. Just scroll down a bit, and you'll find their phone numbers, plus their toll free numbers as well, plus a huge list of unpublished PayPal phone numbers.

3. Their terms of service are not completely disclosed upon signup and some key "conditions" are not disclosed. They fail to mention their total lack of security to prevent your account from being compromised by phishing & spoof sites. That if your account is accessed by a criminal using one of these methods, PayPal will hold YOU monetarily & legally responsible! Also, no place do they openly tell potential members that their money is 100% at risk. That PayPal can, will, and has in the past, completely cleaned out customers' accounts, (including your checking or savings account) with no appeals process available. Instead they bury in the fine print of 37 pages of their "Terms of Service" (ToS) where they disclose to you that PayPal can close your account for any reason what-so-ever, or no reason, and then you have to wait 180 days to get your money. Think that'll never happen? Think again. That's what everyone thinks till it happens to them.

4. If PayPal feels your actions are questionable, PayPal is the investigator, judge, jury and executioner. "Telling your side" of what happened, in most cases seems to be irrelevant. They also refuse to provide you with the details of their investigation and withhold documents they relied upon to make their decisions. Your only contact will be an email that says:

Thank you for contacting PayPal. We apologize for the delay in respondingto your service request.

After review, the decision has been made to keep your account locked. This decision cannot be appealed.

If you have any further questions, please reply to this email.

That will be the end of it as far as PayPal is concerned. You can email back, but you'll just get more of the same. Oh yea, and you'll have to wait 180 days to get your money.

5. If you are a bona fide, up-standing individual with hundreds of successful transactions, but someone pays you with a stolen credit card, your account (by PayPal's own admission) is immediately flagged as being "criminal behavior" and any money in that account is confiscated. If a customer "disputes" the charge, same thing happens. (See email above.) PayPal claims that they will fight chargebacks, but read this before you fall for that one.

6. Paypal's fees for NON-credit card funding are the same as for credit cards! This is the single biggest rippoff on their site. We understand Paypal charging a fee when you fund your account with a credit card. After all, they are being charged by Visa/Mastercard, etc. And we understand there is a lot of fraud with credit card funding. However, most of the money sent withi

Until Paypal address the issues presented by PaypalSucks and similar sites, I'm going to continue to feel disillusioned about what was once the cat's pajamas.

But anyway, looks like O'Reilly will need to update Paypal Hacks with information on this new mobile device support. The 2004 edition is getting noticeably out-of-date.

I, for one, welcome our new google overlords. Really. I was perfectly happy with paypal (aside from obsurd fees) until I had to dispute anything or required their customer service for anything. Paypal/Ebay is a nightmare to deal with, and will screw you over if anything anywhere in their pages and pages of small legal print says they can (it probably does in almost every situation). I'm right onboard with http://www.paypalsucks.com/ now.

See http://www.paypalsucks.com/. There's plenty of evidence (news articles etc.) to suggest it isn't just a smear site done by competitors.

Look, after the various horrendous stories about Paypal (http://www.paypalsucks.com/) could we FINALLY get a worldwide viable alternative to Paypal?

I cancelled my account with Paypal after they decided to freeze the money people were donating for hurrican Katrina on somethingawful.com.

However I still cannot pay everywhere with a creditcard and to be honest, I'd rather not use my credit card everywhere.

PLEASE come with an alternative service Google, and one that I can use with my bank in the Netherlands please, since you have worldwide offices anyway.

Thanks.

Paypalsucks.com disagrees with you.

This, will explain it all.

and a PayPal donation page.

LOL! You don't really think PayPal would do anything that benefits a customer? Nice dream world you have there.

I'm suprised they don't lock up the donations completely without any reason.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

There are competitors out there, you just have to look. eBid (http//www.ebid.net/) is a great auction site with no listing fees. It doesn't have as many buyers and sellers as eBay, but that's sure to change as more and more people get fed up with eBay and it's sidekick Paypal (http://www.paypalsucks.com/).

Complaining about eBay and continuing to buy and sell there because "there's no competition" is like complaining about IE but continuing to use it because you're unwilling to try FireFox/Opera/etc.

What raises eBay fraud amounts? Paypal, Paypal and Paypal!

with eBay, i've mostly had good experience altho, but then again i get only stuff there is not much demand for AKA not good for fraudsters. I acquired only mainly specific style clothing, and mainly pants only. These are very low demand items, there is only few to choose from at any given time.

From about 10 purchases i had these:
1 Fraud -- never got my money back (no answer ever from neither paypal, ebay, and their dispution never worked)
^^ Was really bad!

Doesn't matter much:
2 Product not upto specs -- these were clothes. one pants came with unbelievably BAD smell, like glue or something, and one time a shirt had this someting brown on neck area which is i ahven't still gotten rid of completely. also small ones, buttons missing etc. for clothes advertised as new, or like new, that's odd, right?

With paypal, i got hosting orders, 70-80% were frauds. Paypal also took away the 5$ for the verification which NEVER worked! and i never got that money back nor an answer from Paypal!

using eBay kind of forces you to use Paypal. Paypal is the way worst service EVER!
I must say that most of my experience with eBay has been good, but with Paypal most of bad, so i'm not suprised of these 'news'.

with eBay, i wouldn't touch any high price electronics with a 5meter long stick anymore!
The only time i was going to acquire some higher price electronics from there was a Cerwin Vega car amplifier, i paid, item never arrived, i never got my cash back.

Paypal is the promised land for scammers & fraudsters! Their fraud prevention etc. is inexisting, even they say they have, you can be assured that they won't care.
I tried reporting fraudulent orders i got to Paypal: I never got ANY answer at all, until the real account owner contacted them, then
with a small chance, i'd say about 50% chances that Paypal actually does something.
Fortunately: the worst never happened to me, i had some high amount payments in the past (web design project payments), so perhaps they
noticed that i'm more valuable to them in the THEIR long term (1year or so) than the pennies i had extra on my paypal account on the
largest fraud.
Just look at http://www.paypalsucks.com/

and yes, i understand that big services will always get some 'high noise' complaints, but those complaints are VERY bad sounding and
tip of the iceberg on that website. All are true in atleast one point: they don't have anykind of customer support.

Similarily, I got an email yesterday from someone posing to be eBay, except that they pretended to provide a way to login into eBay after your account has been suspended to get your account reinstated. This is a sore spot with many people, see this. So I think your right -- some phishing setup's are perhaps just starting to lose the look and feel of obviousness, and this is not good thing.

My comment on this is that it is sad that people have to resort to these steps to get service these days. This is what happens when we lets the suits decide that it is more important to spend company funds making more executives millionaires and less money giving people customer service. The rick are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

finance phone steps to find a human

American Express 800-528-4800 0
ATT Universal 800-950-5114 ###
Bank of America 800-900-9000 1 loan; 2 account; 3 investing; 4 info; or 00 to human
Bank One 877-226-5663 0,0
Capital One Visa 800-867-0904 ignore prompts and invalid entry warnings; press #0 four times
Charles Schwab 800-435-9050 3 then 0
Chase 800-CHASE24 5 pause 1 4
CitiBank 800-374-9700 1 online support; 2 billpay; 3 non-online; 4 credit card; or 0 to human
Discover 800-347-2683 ****
E-Trade 800-387-2331 ####
Fidelity 800-544-6666 ignore prompt for social security number, just enter ###
MasterCard 800-MC-ASSIST 000 on each menu
MBNA 800-421-2110 00# when menu starts
Paypal 650 864-8000 cf http://paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtml
Sovereign Bank 800-SOV-BANK 1 english; 1 personal; 3 then social#; passcode, #; then 0 (1-3x)
Sun Trust Banks 404-588-7815 Yes
US Bank 800-US BANKS 0000
Visa 800-847-2911 000 (ignore prompts saying that it's an invalid entry)
Wachovia 800-922-4684 accounts personal banking
Washington Mutual 800-756-8000 At any time after the announcement(s) press 0,0.
Wells Fargo 800-869-3557 0,0,0
Western Union 800-325-6000 * then ##

government phone steps to find a human

INS 800-375-5283 After selecting English, (with a 2 second delay between) 2 6 2 4
Social Security 800-772-1213 00 will confuse computer and send you to an agent
Veterans Affairs 800-827-1000 1,0

insurance phone steps to find a human

Aetna 800-537-9384 "2, then say ""operator"" (check this)"
Aetna 800-680-3566 * then 0 anytime
AFLAC 800-99-AFLAC ***
Ameritas 800-745-1112 0,0,0
CIGNA 800-516-2898 REGARDING A BILL
Cigna 800-849-9000 ##
GEICO 800-841-3000 Wait for prompt then 6, 1, 5
Humana 800-4-HUMANA After entering insurance number and details, 0.
Medicare 800-633-4227 "After the opening prompt say ""agent""."
Principal Life 800-247-4695 1 for english, 2, then 0 several times until it redirects you to an operator.

pharmacy phone steps to find a human

CVS local listing dial local store, after promt. press 6 will connect to store manager
Eckerd 800-eckerds 0 for pharmacy, 8* for manager
Rite Aid Local Store Press 3 to speak to the pharmacy
Walgreens local store 0 for a pharmacy employee
products phone steps to find a human
Bose 800-444-2673 Direct to human!
Sonos 800-680-2345 1 sales; 2 support
Sony 800-222-7669 "When prompted by the automated voice system to answer ANY questions, just say ""Agent"""

retail phone steps to find a human

Advance Auto 800-314-4243 0 when the automated message begins
Amazon.com 800-201-7575 Direct to human!
Best Buy 800-365-0292 00*
Best Buy local store wait for extension prompt (sometimes must 4), then ext. 2021
Circuit City local store 0 for customer service or 218 for store manager
eBay 800-322-9266 0,0
Home Depot 800 677-0232 "When asked for account number, keep hitting ""#"". After 5 or 6 times, a human appears!"
Home Shopping Net 800-284-3100 0
Ikea 800 434-IKEA "0000000 (hit ""0"" many times fast, if you do it once, or too slow, it will merely repea

I can't believe this was modded Interesting - it's totally wrong. Have a look at the size of the PayPalSucks forums to get an idea of what I mean - size alone should give you an idea of what you're dealing with here.

Then go read one of their draconian user agreements, the ex-employee/whistleblower interviews (PayPalSucks and elsewhere), and maybe something like this. Or just google it?

I was ripped off myself - thankfully only for US$2.50 - for the crime of living outside the US and sending verification papers a month too slow. I logged in one day to find my account locked before even the first transaction, with big red bold text to the effect of "bugger off, we don't want your money". I made several calls to get it working again before finding PayPalSucks, but couldn't be bothered spending any more time fighting their obfuscation-fu. I'd suggest my case was more incompetence than malice, but I've seen (firsthand) much worse.

No offense meant, but please do a little research before making such sweeping claims. It's really annoying to see someone sing their praises after watching them get away with the kind of shit that they do.

You do realize most of the anti-paypal stuff out there is just people bitching and complaining because they were attempting some sort of fraud and paypal caught them on it. There are a few valid complaints yes, but I've never heard of anyone without an account paying through them having any problems. They havn't had any breaches in security that would cause your CC data to be worrysome.

I like many others got their paypal frozen. No valid explanation, no correction, no fraud. Granted I just created another account using a more verbose form of my e-mail address but regardless there are people who bitching who have just cause... hince that class action lawsuit.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?f id=3&tid=5223&old_block=0

It might be helpful, when requesting that others take action, to actually name specifics. Simply asking everyone on /. to contact the FTC and BBB and make vague statements of fraud is not exactly a precise attack.

One might, oh, I don't know, suggest people visit various sites ( hey! like this one!) where the alleged abuses are documented, then also give a link to how to contact the proper organizations if they so choose.

I'm surprised you haven't found this by now:

http://paypalsucks.com/

And thank goodness for that!

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Most of your terms are too vague to answer: what's "reasonable"? What's "well established"? What's "low"? Which "people"?

I'd have to say that there is no "well established" online payment site yet, by any definition I'd normally use. The business is still busy defining itself, even though there is a pile of money to be made out of it at the moment. That's why there are so many players piling into the market.

PayPal has first-mover advantage in certain market strata, plus the relationship with eBay, to make it the most widely known and used at the moment. But the customer service horror stories are piling up too.

Skype is not built on open standards like SIP and remains isolated to its own so-called "Peer to Peer" network. It is to the Gizmo Project as AIM is to Jabber.

Furthermore, eBay has a history of poor human rights concerns and owns PayPal, probably the worst on-line payment site ever created.

I predict more consumer-hostile behavior from eBay and will continue to boycott all of its products.