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Well its a car player, but the PhatNoise Phatbox and Kenwood Audio Keg have done this. They've already added FLAX and Audible support and Ogg Vorbis support is in alpha test (freely downloadable for those who wish to try it out)

i don't have any benchmarks, but i'd imagine that the FP version is still much faster than the integer version. there's a lot of small devices that can decode mp3's using a non-floating point decoder on cheap hardware, and it's the primary reason that many soft-upgradable devices haven't had vorbis support in the past. decoding mp3's and vorbis files without an FP unit requires doing a lot of manual conversions in the code, bloating the code out.

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the phatnoise music box (and now kenwood music keg) runs linux on non-fp hardware, and as such cannot handle vorbis - until now?

new pentium 4 mp3 decoder performs much better due to intel's new floating point conversion opcodes

Wow, didn't realize how soon; the PhatBox guys have already tried it.

WAV doesn't make sense, but FLAC does. FLAC is a lossless audio encoder which typically achieves 2:1 compression on ordinary music files (such as WAV's ripped from CD's). That is roughly 50% more than 320kbps MP3. For the audiophiles, it is an attractive option.

Phatnoise makes a car MP3 player that plays FLAC files. Of course, the words "car" and "audiophile" usually don't go together, unless we're talking about rich dudes who ride around in limousines, drinking champagne, listening to Beethoven, and ruling the world using a cell phone.

i saw this (and the pioneer one) at CES. 10 gigs (unupgradeable) of music that rips from your cd player. unuseable (atrac3) format that you can't take out of the car. the only way to get music on it is by inserting a cd and waiting for it to rip or by magicgate (drm'd) memory sticks (which means my music collection is useless with it). and how do you manage, navigate, control all that music through the stupid headunit interface?

these guys had it right. create playlists on your desktop (mp3's), transfer them to a removeable hard drive via usb, plug that drive into a device that emulates a cd changer in your car. don't even have to change out your headunit. sounds like it does just the opposite of what the sony unit does, and is much more practical. they also make a model specifically for kenwood, so it does look like they're gaining headway in the market.

And it's half the price and plays FLAC also (the MusicKeg is a re-branded PhatBox).

Pioneer has an in-dash unit like Sony's for around ~$2K but you can't even rip MP3's from ISO-9660 discs on that. Besides, who wants to spend all that time trying to rerip and recatalog everything on another box?

An iPod or a portable drive like the PhatBox is the way to go.

Josh

you hit the nail right on the head.

can't use your mp3's with it. can't take the music you rip anywhere. nearly impossible to manage.

why not try the phatnoise car audio system (they're selling them again). pretty similar to an empeg, except that it emulates a CD changer, so it connects to your existing headunit. plays mp3, wma, and flac (lossless encoding). removeable hard drive connects to your pc via usb, and lets you use all the music that you already own.

even with the price of a new headunit it's cheaper than this sony pos.

I have an Alpine stereo with the MP3 player as AUX. The MP3 player has a 5 line text LCD, which assists in selecting from the 300+ albums in mine. Mine is the Neo 35 (Now out of date, see the Neo 45) from SSI America. It is a pullout cartridge that slides into a bay on my PC. Or into a base station for use as a home stereo device. I put a 40Gb HD in mine. Most of the players use off-the-shelf IDE hard drives, and are user installable.

If purchasing new I would recommend the Kenwood Music Keg (based on the Phatnoise Phatbox). Simply because of the level of integration between the head-unit and jukebox. It turns out that using a separate interface to control your CD player and Receiver versus the MP3 player, has really annoyed me. The Music Keg displays song titles, time remaining, etc. on the stereo faceplate, operates just like an OEM CD changer. It also works with BMW, Audi, and VW stereo systems.

I like the idea of the new systems with USB support. This allows me to buy CDs, rip them with my laptop and sync to the drive on the fly.

there are a few solutions. the empeg is extinct. the ssi neo is cheap. it's not good, but it's cheap. the phatbox is probably the best solution for you (especially if you're getting an aftermarket stereo). if you're scared of small companies, the phatbox also comes as the kenwood music keg (it runs linux, too).

10 gigs in my car. haven't listened to the radio in months.

This is great. Quicktime should now be able to play XviD and DivX video. XviD especially. That's nice.

I was really hoping Apple would move more towards Free formats, however. AAC has good quality, but it's a nightmare of licensing restrictions. It looks like I'll still have to go to the QuickTime Components Project for Ogg Vorbis and exa-mozilla MNG support. All of my music is in Vorbis, and my movies convereted to OGM from AVI and MOV containers. OGM is a really nice container. No sync or seek problems at all. You can embed XML streams, for whatever purpose you'd like.

Even more importantly, QuickTime still doesn't have a lossless audio compression codec. Some FLAC would be nice. It really looks like FLAC might be moving closer to the Ogg project.

I mean, hey, unless Apple is going to make a car stereo system, this is probably the best component to plug into an OS X "digital hub." It does FLAC, with the new firmware.

Still, the ability to play XviD (valid MPEG-4 video) is a great step in the right direction. Kudos.

Lots of other people have mentioned that they want Ogg support on their player and a few others have pointed out the FAQ answer that says it's probably too hard to do on this device. What I would like to see is a portable device that can be easily extended to arbitrary formats. For example, my current audio format of choice is FLAC which has no portable hardware support (though there apparently is a car player that supports it -- rock!). I doubt that it will become very popular though, because it's a lossless codec and therefore must take up more room than lossy codecs. But that's beside the point -- if someone makes a new audio format that is truly cool and does some things that certain people like or want, it would be neat if you could carry around that music without custom hardware.

Just a thought...

...which is being billed as the first portable Ogg Vorbis player.

I like hacking the CD changer bus to allow you to control many gigs of mp3s instead of 6 lowly CDs, like PhatNoise.

unix.phatnoise.com

the whole thing w/ the phatbox is it works with your existing head unit (if it's on the compatibility list). so it just looks like a standard multichanger to the head unit. except of course, you have 10-30gbs of music on hand, with no swapping discs. actually, just look at this page for an explanation.

if you've got a single-disc loader up front, then you get the best of both worlds. and i know some folks have tried (successfully?) to keep a cd-changer in the loop too.

i actually think it's pretty bad-ass. yes, it's pricey, but bad-ass. and mp3, wav, and (soon) flac support =)

it does NOT play OGG. only the desktop software component of it supports playback and encoding of ogg files. the music keg currently only plays mp3, wma, and wav.

of course, this is a product of these guys and has been available for a while (and it does run linux!).

The PhatBox (and Music Keg) will support Ogg as soon as FREE libraries are available which will run on the ARM 7. If anybody is working towareds such a goal, please let me know. I can test it out on the PhatBox, and incorporate it into future upgrades.

i can't believe this wasn't picked up by slashdot already, but Kenwood USA is releasing a car mp3 player that runs linux! this is yet another victory in the embedded market.
i believe the product was actually made by these guys, but now it's being carried in retail chains.

other than this, ces was a total disappointment. nothing new or original there.

We really need support for OGG on products like the Phatbox.

Cryptnotic

As you can see on
this page the BMW version of the Phatbox uses this
Adapter: Blitzsafe: BMW/ALPDMXV.1.

That's a BMW to Alpine M-Bus convertor, so it seems they already have M-Bus.

I've been keeping an eye on these guys for a while, after searching for a spec for the Sony changer protocol, for similar reasons.

They currently have a changer box that will talk to Kenwood head units, and takes hard-disk cartridges. They claim to have have compatibility for other brands (Sony, Alpine etc) in the works.

Nice looking kit, too.

Hack the CD changer bus, and plug in an mp3 player instead.
like this

all i've ever wanted is 30 gigs of mp3's in my car. won't somebody buy this for a starving student?

The Phatbox definitely doesn't suck. They can describe it better than I can:

"The PhatNoise Car Audio System is an MP3 player that works like a CD changer and stores several thousand music files right in your car. Using our software you can organize and then download your songs onto a DMS cartridge. You then plug the DMS into the PhatBox that is installed in your trunk. The system uses the CD changer controls on aftermarket and original equipment car stereos."

Feature comparisons to Neo, Rio Car, and dedicated MP3 head units can be found here.
It currently works with BMW and Audi factory units and Kenwood aftermarket head units. I'm currently in their Sony test program and I am loving it. I've got a 20Gig cart and I have access to my entire library on the road. Another thing that would appeal to the /. folks is that it's Linux powered. You need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but there are instructions here on how to do everything you need under Linux.

The Phatbox definitely doesn't suck. They can describe it better than I can:

"The PhatNoise Car Audio System is an MP3 player that works like a CD changer and stores several thousand music files right in your car. Using our software you can organize and then download your songs onto a DMS cartridge. You then plug the DMS into the PhatBox that is installed in your trunk. The system uses the CD changer controls on aftermarket and original equipment car stereos."

Feature comparisons to Neo, Rio Car, and dedicated MP3 head units can be found here.
It currently works with BMW and Audi factory units and Kenwood aftermarket head units. I'm currently in their Sony test program and I am loving it. I've got a 20Gig cart and I have access to my entire library on the road. Another thing that would appeal to the /. folks is that it's Linux powered. You need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but there are instructions here on how to do everything you need under Linux.

The Phatbox definitely doesn't suck. They can describe it better than I can:

"The PhatNoise Car Audio System is an MP3 player that works like a CD changer and stores several thousand music files right in your car. Using our software you can organize and then download your songs onto a DMS cartridge. You then plug the DMS into the PhatBox that is installed in your trunk. The system uses the CD changer controls on aftermarket and original equipment car stereos."

Feature comparisons to Neo, Rio Car, and dedicated MP3 head units can be found here.
It currently works with BMW and Audi factory units and Kenwood aftermarket head units. I'm currently in their Sony test program and I am loving it. I've got a 20Gig cart and I have access to my entire library on the road. Another thing that would appeal to the /. folks is that it's Linux powered. You need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but there are instructions here on how to do everything you need under Linux.

Just in case anyone is looking to play MP3's in a car, The Phatnoise Phatbox is now shipping. Check and see if your headunit is currently compatible. I'm going to pick one up as soon as I can scrounge the cash. I beleive the software is not currenly linux compatible but the the actual unit does run Linux.

it's all about the Phatbox. a mobile mp3 player that you can control via your head unit's cd-changer controls. it even installs just like a CD changer. since the unit spoofs discs and the tracks, you can have up to 999 discs and up to 999 tracks on each disc. if your head unit does text, it will display track/album info too. right now they support factory Audi, BMW, Honda, Toyota, VW head units and Kenwood aftermarket units. support for other head units is based on demand. i'm currently in their Sony test program and it works great. it uses a 20Gig cartridge (basically a 2.5" laptop drive in a rugged shell) to hold data and syncing is done via USB cradle. you need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but someone there has Linux scripts which can do the same. tech specs are here and comparisons to other units are here.

what do i like aboot it?

- runs Linux. nuff said. =)
- firmware can be updated via syncs with the cart. so if you get a new head unit or car, or if a new audio format emerges, no worries.
- i've encoded my entire library and i have access to all 170+ of my CDs. my truck no longer resembles a CD warehouse.

it's all about the Phatbox. a mobile mp3 player that you can control via your head unit's cd-changer controls. it even installs just like a CD changer. since the unit spoofs discs and the tracks, you can have up to 999 discs and up to 999 tracks on each disc. if your head unit does text, it will display track/album info too. right now they support factory Audi, BMW, Honda, Toyota, VW head units and Kenwood aftermarket units. support for other head units is based on demand. i'm currently in their Sony test program and it works great. it uses a 20Gig cartridge (basically a 2.5" laptop drive in a rugged shell) to hold data and syncing is done via USB cradle. you need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but someone there has Linux scripts which can do the same. tech specs are here and comparisons to other units are here.

what do i like aboot it?

- runs Linux. nuff said. =)
- firmware can be updated via syncs with the cart. so if you get a new head unit or car, or if a new audio format emerges, no worries.
- i've encoded my entire library and i have access to all 170+ of my CDs. my truck no longer resembles a CD warehouse.

it's all about the Phatbox. a mobile mp3 player that you can control via your head unit's cd-changer controls. it even installs just like a CD changer. since the unit spoofs discs and the tracks, you can have up to 999 discs and up to 999 tracks on each disc. if your head unit does text, it will display track/album info too. right now they support factory Audi, BMW, Honda, Toyota, VW head units and Kenwood aftermarket units. support for other head units is based on demand. i'm currently in their Sony test program and it works great. it uses a 20Gig cartridge (basically a 2.5" laptop drive in a rugged shell) to hold data and syncing is done via USB cradle. you need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but someone there has Linux scripts which can do the same. tech specs are here and comparisons to other units are here.

what do i like aboot it?

- runs Linux. nuff said. =)
- firmware can be updated via syncs with the cart. so if you get a new head unit or car, or if a new audio format emerges, no worries.
- i've encoded my entire library and i have access to all 170+ of my CDs. my truck no longer resembles a CD warehouse.

it's all about the Phatbox. a mobile mp3 player that you can control via your head unit's cd-changer controls. it even installs just like a CD changer. since the unit spoofs discs and the tracks, you can have up to 999 discs and up to 999 tracks on each disc. if your head unit does text, it will display track/album info too. right now they support factory Audi, BMW, Honda, Toyota, VW head units and Kenwood aftermarket units. support for other head units is based on demand. i'm currently in their Sony test program and it works great. it uses a 20Gig cartridge (basically a 2.5" laptop drive in a rugged shell) to hold data and syncing is done via USB cradle. you need Windoze to use their playlist manager software, but someone there has Linux scripts which can do the same. tech specs are here and comparisons to other units are here.

what do i like aboot it?

- runs Linux. nuff said. =)
- firmware can be updated via syncs with the cart. so if you get a new head unit or car, or if a new audio format emerges, no worries.
- i've encoded my entire library and i have access to all 170+ of my CDs. my truck no longer resembles a CD warehouse.

how about a computer built for your car?
these guys have made a hackable linux based computer that acts like a cd changer. arm processor, harddrive, etc. i wonder what else you can do with it? maybe the world's (physically) fastest web server.

these devices ship with linux, it's their embedded os. linux is making enormous gains in the embedded world due to the fact that it is both royalty free to ship, the source is completely available, the development tools are both free and familiar, and there is a fair amount of developers out there who are familiar with the kernel/drivers (but you already know this, of course).

consider a device like the oh-so-popular tivo or something more obscure like the phatbox or other portable devices. the makers of these devices have the options of:

• paying a dollar to people like windriver (who effectively monopolized bsd, along with vxworks, psos, and others) or psion for every unit shipped
• a couple of large bills to for a development license (qnx, ...)
• a mighty sum for development tools (green hills, nucleus, ...)
• all of the above (microsoft windows ce)
• or, get it all for free by using linux.

under many of these options, i doubt these (probably very small) companies would have ever been able to afford to bring a product to market. and every dollar that doesn't go to a 3rd party at retail is a dollar that goes towards r&d for the super-tivo or whatever (or stays in your pocket).

yes, i'm preaching to the choir. let them sing.

joe

I'm going to post a detailed review later, it'll be up at http://pobox.com/~jaffray/phatnoise.html. In the meantime, I posted this short review to rec.audio.car, and it would seem appropriate here as well:

I've had my PhatNoise system for about a month. The physical design is very slick, and so is the software. It installed with no difficulty, just like a normal CD changer. The sound quality seems excellent to me. I'll admit that I'm not a golden ear, and my car system, while decent, isn't audiophile quality; but in general listening, and in a few short non-blind A/B tests, I can't distinguish quality of playback of my MP3s (encoded at 192kbps) from the PhatNoise from playback of CDs in the head unit.

In usage, it behaves exactly like a really big CD changer, up to 99 discs. In a way, that's good - your head unit controls are nicely refined to work with such a changer. On the other hand, if you're trying to find a specific album and song, you really want to have a tree-structured storage, with folders containing subfolders of songs. On the third hand, it could be argued that such an interface would be unsafe to use while driving, between the cognitive load and the need to look at the LCD between button presses.

Some aspects are still a bit beta-ish. I had problems with occasional skips; very infrequent, very minimal compared to CD skips, but still, MP3s shouldn't do that. They went away when I upgraded to the most recent firmware release a week ago. The PhatMan client software isn't fast enough when handling huge collections (100GB+), even after speed improvements in recent versions, and I've made it crash a few times. The firmware update process isn't as smooth as it should be.

The system is very hackable. I swapped out the PhatCart's 6GB hard drive for a 12GB drive I had lying around, which was easy, and I expect a larger drive would be just as simple. (20GB 2.5" drives are $110 these days.) The PhatBox itself is an ARM Linux system, the system files on the PhatCart are unencrypted and in fairly obvious formats, and the PhatDock is just a standard IDE-USB bridge. I've already written a simple client which uploads albums to the PhatCart from Linux, so I don't need to use PhatMan in Windows. Overall, the combination of excellent production values and relatively open internals is refreshing. Hopefully they can be persuaded to open the source to the PhatBox's main player daemon as well...

Compared to the competition: The Rio Car (AKA empeg) is way cooler, without a doubt, since it has its own display and controls and can use them more flexibly. Unfortunately it's much more expensive, and it must be installed in-dash and does not have a detachable face. For me, carrying around a DIN-sized unit and inserting/removing it for every car trip is unacceptable. On the other end of the price range, SSI makes a unit (the Neo 35) that's somewhat cheaper, but they seem to be cutting corners (like using 3.5" drives which are not intended for mobile use), the system doesn't seem nearly as polished in general, and there are some reports from unhappy customers out there.

Probably the most significant competition is from the various CDR-based MP3 head units. Carrying around a handful of CDRs, each containing a dozen albums, is a reasonable and cheaper alternative to hard-drive units for many users. highwaymp3.com reviews such units, which have gotten a lot better recently. Do your research carefully before buying one, though. They generally don't have upgradeable firmware, meaning that any bugs or missing capabilities will never be fixed. They also won't change in response to emerging standards, so the useful lifetime may be short. For example, imagine if you'd bought a MP3 player several years ago that didn't support VBR, or that glitched when playing back tracks with id3v2 tags. You'd probably want to replace it by now.

On the whole, I'm very glad I bought the PhatNoise. It's cool, it's useful, I've really enjoyed having it in my car, and for $600 (plus another $100 or $200 to bump up the capacity to 20-30GB), it's not all that expensive for what it offers. I never have to change discs or plug in or unplug anything, I just have hundreds of hours of music available to me, all the time. I'd definitely recommend it to gadget fiends in its current state, and when they ship the final release with up-to-date firmware and options for more capacity, I'd have no reservations about recommending it even to non-techies who just happen to want hundreds of hours of music on tap in their car.

The phat box by phatnoise is still listed. So maybe theirs will release.

I didn't see anything about price just now, but I believe I saw it at well under $1000, the last time I was there.

But it doesn't list ogg vorbis as a supported format. X-(

The PhatNoise car mp3 player has used this system for a while to get a hard drive into a car player. The only hard part is getting your hands on a box from the beta release.
www.phatnoise.com

i dunno about you guys (and girls), but i personally cannot stand any more corporate-programmed media. for the same reason i don't watch tv anymore, i also listen to shoutcast and my own mp3's instead of commercial radio.

so, how do we get that in the car? i'm drooling over the phatnoise car audio system.
_________________________________________ _________
Do You Yahoo!?

Cryptnotic

Reading the AnandTech review of the Aiwa that was linked to elsewhere, it sounds like the unit has the overall quality of the Nomad Jukebox. Which is to say, it'll play MP3s, but overall the device is crap. I have a Nomad because it solved my immediate desire to transport MP3s from home to the car and office, but as soon as something better comes along it'll become a hand-me-down for my kid brother or go on eBay.

I rejected the Aiwa and Kenwood MP3 head units because I have better things to do than burn my MP3 collection back to CD. I also worry about the longevity of CDRs subjected to the abuse of being in the car (heat, scratching, etc). Another MP3 option that hasn't been mentioned is the "PhatNoise", a modular 2.5" hard-drive unit that emulates an OEM CD changer. The plus side to it is that it provides "Stealth MP3", but their site has been around for quite a while and they still aren't shipping.

I'd have bought an empeg for my car, but unfortunately it will not be coming back to America with me (some stupid law about airbags) and I don't want to go through the hassle of re-installing the factory system when I sell it. The drawbacks to the empeg are:

1. Price
2. AM/FM tuner isn't shipping yet
3. No CD option

#1: Nothing can be done about that. If you aren't geek enough to spend whatever it takes to building the baddest MoFo vehicle that plays MP3s and runs Linux, Slashdot can't help you. Sorry. Perhaps you need to find a better job or re-locate somewhere with a lower cost-of-living.

The empeg also does not provide an amplified signal, which is an additional cost if your car doesn't already have an amplifier. You can get around that by slaving the empeg to a head-unit that does have an amplifier (see #2).

#2: I personally don't care about the tuner, but for true NPR die-hards the empeg does have RCA line outputs AND inputs, which means that you can plug the empeg into a standard head unit (or vice-versa). If your dash doesn't have a double-DIN stereo slot, you'll need to do some hacking. GM and Chrysler "DIN-and-a-half" designs usually have enough space around them to build a double-DIN space. Don't risk screwing up your own dash with a dremel tool, pay a professional installer to do it (if it's a friend's dash, and they're offering beer, go for it ;-)

On other single-DIN cars, like my present BMW E36 and my former Mustang, there is often a storage area in the dash that happens to be single-DIN sized. In the case of the Mustang, that space was actually designed to hold a factory single CD player. Again, don't mess up your own dash, seek the help of a professional installer. And the fools at Best Buy do not qualify as professionals. Get a recommendation from that friend of yours who ripped out his back seat to install three 18" subwoofers. If you don't have such a friend, you need to get out more.

If your car doesn't have an available opening, it gets tricky. The glove box, armrest, and under-dash mounting (CB-style) are the primary possibilities. There is some possibility that you could hack a "detachable face" unit to put the display and controls somewhere convenient, but I would strongly recommend that you just replace the car (see #1).

#3: You have three choices for CD playback. You can go the route mentioned in #2, using a full head-unit to provide CD playback. Or you can buy a stand-alone in-dash CD unit, similar to what Ford offers for the Mustang. Sony's CDX-1000RF is one example that provides RCA outputs. Or you can buy a CD changer that has it's own controls, just make sure that it provides RCA outputs. Many use a single RCA-style jack to run to an external FM modulator, this is not the same thing. Be sure to check the manual before buying, never trust the sales guy (especially if it's at Best Buy or any other chain).

For "once in a blue moon" CD use, you could also rig up a Discman to the empeg's RCA inputs. It's a crappy way to do it, but if the desire to play CDs will be very infrequent, it's good enough...

-Bryce

Of course, if Santa wanted to render an indisputable legal decision on DeCSS in favor of Free Software (not to mention common sense), I'd happily give up any of the three above things!

The software also supports MP3 and WMA encoding. Unfortunately, the software is currently Windows only.

The software also supports MP3 and WMA encoding. Unfortunately, the software is currently Windows only.

Sure you can. Just put a PhatNoise system in there! Guaranteed to have the same quality experience as a traditional CD player. Works great BTW :-)
http://music.zdnet.com/features/phatnois e/
http://www.phatnoise.com/table.htm

sorry, bad url. right one is:
www.phatnoise.com