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Ok.
P90D Model X does 3.3 secs and P100D Model X does 2.9 secs.

Top of the line stang does 0-60 in just under 4.0 secs. So no. Not even close
Demon does 2.3-2.6 (while model S, the better comparison, does 1.9). So yes, a top-of-the-line ICE muscle car finally beats the fastest SUV. Barely.
SLG does 3.3 sec, which means it beats P90D, but loses to P100D

And the Model S is faster and outhandles all of those that you mentioned.
I will be curious to find out how the Model 3 does in terms of handling vs. others. So far, handling on the track is one of its big points.

But you've still yet to show an automaker issuing a recall on a vehicle after it was out of any possible warranty.

Recalls are mandated by the government when a problem is found with an automobile which is safety related. Both the problems mentioned above affect safety and are the subject of recalls. As such, the manufacturer will have to make the repair at no charge to the car owner regardless of whether or not the car is still under a manufacturer's warranty.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a30755/the-difference-between-recalls-and-technical-service-bulletins/

Then here you will find a great many recalls issued on vehicles out of warranty.

That is a rough year and it's surprising because the Odyssey is generally a reliable car and is on the list of cars that often go over 200k miles. https://www.roadandtrack.com/n...

I've always looked at reliability as the primary metric but haven't really evaluated the ownership cost. Sadly, most calculators I see that calculate the ownership of a vehicle always starts with a new vehicle. Any of us who actually bother to do the math will know that as expensive as your Odyssey was, it would have cost you more if you had bought a new one and sold it 5 years later. So even if you get a lemon and have to fix it up it's still less expensive then buying new. In the end, it might be less expensive to own a domestic vehicle even though it's not quite as reliable. A AAA membership isn't that expensive.

I think you're forgetting that the $35k Model 3 doesn't really exist.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/n...

The $35k starting price is a bit misleading...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/n...

The Bugatti Chiron is kind of hilarious. They invested untold millions eeking out the last bit of performance from their fossil fuel engine, and it's still slower than a stock Model S from 0-60. Also, it costs 20x as much.

Sure, vs the P100D in ludicrious mode, it's slightly slower 0-60 (2.3s vs 2.28s). But low end torque is the #1 advantage of electric motors, and one of the biggest weaknesses of ICE. However, now go and look at the quarter mile numbers for the two, and you'll find that the Chiron blows the P100D away (9.11s vs 10.44s). Or, you could look at the top speeds for the two cars, where the P100D also gets blown away (420 km/h (limited by today's tire technology... perhaps as high as 500 km/h) vs 250 km/h).

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration
• https://uberpeople.net/threads/the-bugatti-chiron-whooped-the-srt-demon-by-over-1-2-second-in-the-1-4-mile.208032/
• https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10187823/bugatti-chiron-top-speed-tires/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

Wanna bet? Maybe it will be a modern reincarnation of Jim Hall's Chaparral 2J.

This is about the closest you'll get

I don't know if that's the drivetrain I sampled. But from the back seat, on a short stretch of road closed off for the Tesla event, the Model 3 launched with ferocious grip and absolutely zero drama. It wasn't quite the chest-collapsing wallop of a Model S P90D in Ludicrous mode, but without a stopwatch, I'd say the Model 3 I rode in zipped from a dead stop to 75 mph a bit quicker than a Subaru WRX STI—silently.

Sadly, there was no place to get a good impression of the Model 3's steady-state handling or lateral grip, but our driver zig-zagged through a handful of quick slalom maneuvers. The Model 3 stayed nearly flat, with plenty of grip. Credit Tesla's low-slung platform, which puts the mass of the batteries (and in this case, the dual motors) as low as possible in the package.

From this, you apparently derive that it has horrible handling?

Expected to be 400-600 kilos lighter than a Cayenne in the baseline version, and similar to a Mustang. The center of mass is ridiculously low. It should stick to the roads like a dream.

If you're basing your expectations on the S, again, that's baffling, because the S has gotten superb reviews on its handling. Here's Jalopnik's, for example:

On an open, winding stretch of Skyline Road the P85D feels at home. It's a road I know, and the Tesla hunkers down and devours it. But underneath the sheer speed is that battery pack and extra motor, mounted oh-so-low in the car. Through high-speed sweepers and cambered corners is this thoroughly odd sensation of ample mass sliding underneath you, but it never feels cumbersome. There's a certain amount of security that comes with hurtling that amount of weight with such a lower center of gravity through corner after corner, and the tires and motors do their best to keep it in check. There's grip for days, more than I expected, and the only time the Tesla felt out of its element was in the tightest, single-lane switchbacks that vein out from Skyline. Good sports sedans shrink around you; the Model S doesn't, but that seems like a lowly demerit given everything else it's capable of.

S is much heavier than 3, because it's a larger vehicle and has a larger pack. The all-aluminum frame helps compensate (Model 3 is steel + aluminum), but the baseline 3 will almost certainly be sub-2 tonne, with a lot of the speculation in the 1,6 to 1,9 tonne range.

None of what you wrote you is correct. The most glaring ones.

It has a the Tesla has a lower top speed and worse handling.
Has the industry's worst autonomous system.
Has the industry's worst reliability meaning you spend a shit ton of money getting it repaired.

And yet from almost the day that the "autopilot" feature became available, videos started circulating online of actual Tesla drivers doing stupid stuff like jumping into the passenger seat or back seat while letting the car "drive."

That's not because of the name.... People do stupid stuff period. E.g. People do stupid stuff with LaneAssist too, and AutoPilot is not in the name.

What makes the Tesla a little bit different is not the name, so much as the fact that the Car doesn't instantly disengage the assist features if the driver removes hands from the wheel.

you mean the same consumer reports that rated it the least reliable? That consumer reports?

http://www.consumerreports.org...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/ne...
http://gizmodo.com/consumer-re...

Note that people treat 'assist' as 'auto' as well. However no doubt Tesla exacerbates the issue by calling it that.

A bigger thing is that in addition to calling it 'lane assist', competitors *also* more aggressively monitored user attention.

For example, Mercedes drivers taped a can to trick the sensor:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/ca...

Though in that case, I think anyone can argue that a person getting killed doing that was *really* going out of their way to act against the designer's intent for the vehicle. Contrasted with Tesla which had messaging *and* implementation that encouraged people to be reckless.

So far, the US government has launched a massive campaign against VW, looting billions of dollars and severely damaging the company's until recently almost spotless reputation. However, there is plenty of evidence that most other car manufacturers, including the 2.5 US domestic majors, have been pulling similar tricks for years. Except from a few stern words from the German transportation minister and a few 'voluntary' recalls, there have been exactly zero consequences. No suits, no fines, no withdrawals, no buybacks, no criminal prosecution, no exaggerated claims from government officials, no media outcry. Nothing.

The other manufacturers seem to get away with it scott-free, even though the cheating is often relatively easy to detect and the NOx emissions are in many cases several times larger than from the VW EA189. The simply continue to deny even after getting caught, or they attempt to cover it up, and government authorities let it pass, or even help covering it up. Meanwhile, they all get to steal sales from the scapegoat, the only manufacturer that actually admitted and recalled the affected vehicles (except in the US, where the authorities are dragging their feet) and, ironically, makes the cars with the lowest real-world NOx emissions.

The anti-VW campaign has nothing to do with the environment and everything with economic interests. The Americans found something and exploited it to the maximum extent in every possible way, just like they did with Toyota's 'sudden unintended acceleration'.

The software started off innocently enough. Audi developed it in 1999. They were trying to figure out a way to reduce the diesel clatter when you've started the engine cold. The solution they came up with was to make the fuel mixture richer to increase lubrication. But that caused emissions to spike. They figured since this was being doing only during warmup after the engine was cold started, and wasn't how the engine would normally run, it was OK to disable the emissions controls for that period. An exception being if a emissions test was being run - then they'd leave the emissions controls running normally to better reflect how the engine runs outside of this warmup phase.

Gradually over time, they began relying on it more and more. With the 2.0 liter diesel engine, they didn't want to pay Mercedes to license the urea injection system. So they began used the software instead. (On the 3.0 liter engines which have urea injection, it appears to have been used as a crutch so they could get away with putting in a smaller, cheaper catalytic converter and not have to use as much urea.)

I think this article summarizes how I feel best:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/ca...

That's data Tesla should have, since they get driving statistics from their cars. They should be able to easily calculate the accident rate for their cars under similar driving conditions with and without Autopilot on.

see: http://www.roadandtrack.com/ca...

No, it also needs to be deactivated immediately if the driver takes their hands off the steering wheel. No hands-free operation. Force the driver to do what they are supposed to be doing anyway -- driving and being in control.

I have let my attention drift with my hands on the whee even with the threat of pain and possible death. solution like intermittant buzzing or twitching the wheel will only exhaust the driver with false alerts leading to even more unsafe driving. Because autopilot is as safe as human driver, the only solution is to encourage it's use and get more data to make autopilot even safer. see this R&T article. http://www.roadandtrack.com/ca...

Airbags and seat belts cannot cause accident putting others at risk, autopolit can, that's a big difference.

Not sure about seatbelts, but I'd put money on airbags.

what about having real qa & not end users and your own coders be the testes?

And the QA needs to have the rights / means to change settings and set up the environment in different ways to test out different things. Helps to have people with a QA / testing mind set there.

For some things changes how things work from an standard / the way it has been for a long time to a new default can seem like an bug / lead to bad stuff happening. Like the Gear shift confusion issue that can kill people where was QA on that one? Or did the designers thing that the old way needed to change and did not take testing in put?

https://consumerist.com/2016/0...

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/2...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/ne...

Top Gear US doesn't exist anymore

For what it's worth, the reports say that the car was a recent model Jeep Cherokee. Recent Chryslers vehicles have an incredibly stupid automatic shifter.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a28121/nhtsa-investigates-jeep-dodge-chrysler-shifters/

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/02/09/2033249/jeepchryslers-new-gearshift-appears-to-be-causing-accidents

It's entirely a drive-by-wire shifter that acts more like a joystick, and what you do is that you essentially dial in the gear you want, at which point it always goes back to its default position. So people are having a heck of a time telling when it's in Park, because if they didn't dial it correctly, they'll get Neural instead.

Mr. Yelchin may very well have been the latest person to discover this the unfortunate way; there were already 30 injury reports back in February.

They did:

https://www.teslamotors.com/en...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/ne...

Uh every tesla ever sold costing more then the original stated price? All their partners all went to fuel cell, all of them. The grid in socal for example cant even handle normal hot day without rolling brown outs. How many BEV cars can the grid handle? HONDA has a system that powers you house and charges your car and uses the car as an extra power source if needed. Japan IS going fuel cell. Not even a question. Fuelcell is advancing at a crazy rate. Batteries have made almost no advances is 20 years. Just cheaper. Boeing and lockeed are working to be allowed to umm discover amazing things that dont exist officially. You think i have a actual problem with Tesla. I dont i think they hype shit to keep the stock up so they can move forward. Fine, but the FC bullshit slamming based on where the tech was vs say where it is is just so lacking in forsight. http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcel... http://www.roadandtrack.com/ne...

Responding to myself to provide citations and additional details, since there's some (perfectly understandable) incredulity in response to my comment.

Regarding the weld, it's a variety of friction welding that SpaceX developed:
http://electrek.co/2015/05/24/...
http://gas2.org/2015/05/29/spa...

Regarding the crush test breaking the machine:
http://www.wired.com/2013/08/t...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/ne...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/...

It's also worth noting that Tesla claimed they had achieved a NHTSA safety rating score of 5.4, which was utter and complete nonsense since the scoring is capped at 5 stars. Tesla apparently arrived at that number by totaling up each of the subcategories and ignoring the fact that the total score is capped by design. The NHTSA rightly slapped Tesla for saying they had achieved a score beyond the max, and by no means should my previous comment be taken as an endorsement of Tesla or everything they've claimed regarding their safety record over the years. I was simply sharing a neat tidbit that seemed relevant. Nothing more.

No fanboy, you didn't actually hear that. [...] I assure you, no Tesla 'broke the machine'.

A) So you're saying that Wired, Road and Track, USA Today, and a number of other news outlets fabricated a story that I never read? That seems like a bit much conspiracy for me.

B) I'm no Tesla fanboy. I'm glad that they're pushing a stagnant industry forward at a faster pace, but that's about it. I don't think Musk is the second coming of either Jesus or Steve Jobs, I have very little interest in their cars as they exist today, and I strongly believe that they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater in a number of instances where they've tried to distance themselves from traditional aspects of cars (e.g. the touchscreen in their cars is ludicrous and unsafe).

Watch one season of NASCAR and get a clue.

This thread was discussing the relative safety of luxury cars and my comment was clearly constrained to them, given that I explicitly referred to them. But I'll let you take my comment out of context if it'll help you feel better about being so wrong about everything else.

By "keep going straight", I meant more "stay on the road in the current lane" than "generally go straight ahead." The latter we have today (assuming your car is properly aligned and you don't veer onto the sidewalk). The former would be a step towards self-driving cars.

There are several cars on the market that already do lane following. Have been for a few years now. So far they all try to require you to at least keep your hands on the wheel, in an effort to try to make you pay attention, but it turns out that at least some are pretty easy to fool: http://www.roadandtrack.com/ca...

So, yes, we already have this, though we try not to.

Why can't we use these things in cars?

We already do use them in cars.

Imagine being able to recharge your car faster than you could fill it up with gas.

Not quite that simple. There is a serious heat issue to deal with when you are transferring that much electric power over wires even if the power is available. Filling up something like a Tesla safely in less than 3 minutes is not as easy as it sounds. You can't just pump more juice over the same wires. You start getting into needing superconductors to handle the juice unless you have wires the thickness of your arm.

Stations could add solar panels for some additional "free" electricity, etc.

That would be a LOT of solar panels. I'm not sure you appreciate the amount of power we are talking about here. A few solar panels on the roof would add so little power it would barely be measurable.

Many of the cars we test-drove last year already had systems to detect when the car was leaving the lane on the highway, and some had cruise control that would automatically slow down if the car in front did. Adapting that tech to drive on the highway by itself for a few thousand miles in good conditions shouldn't be particularly hard.

S-Class plus soda can equals autonomous highway cruiser.

It's dealing with the unexpected that's difficult, and that's where most human screwups happen, too.

Yep. What Delphi just did is showed that they're up to where whoever Mercedes is buying their telematics from was up to some years ago. Congratulations, Delphi, for only being a bunch of years behind.

The Challenger SRT Hellcat claims 707 hp. Got schooled at the dragstrip by a Model S P85D, but the driver was inexperienced and running stock rear tires. Still, that’s a lot of horses for some $60K.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/mo...

Since ethanol is really lousy when it comes to fuel mileage

http://www.roadandtrack.com/rt...

And Ethanol is causing farmers to switch to corn growth

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ja...

Please - Keep supporting ethanol. I love paying higher prices in the grocery stores, polluting more, and supporting the people in charge fighting for it!

Brought to you by the Amalgamated Association of morons

http://www.threestooges.net/al...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/ca...

1000HP Honda minivan. More of a novelty used as a dyno queen and for burnouts. Similar to many 1000+ HP Supras.

Your prank idea sounds great... well until people figure out the old coke can for hands trick.

But seriously I never understood this both my hands must be on the wheel at all time crap the safe driving nazi's think about driving these days. I mean have any of you people ever driven a car with a manual transmission? I think if I can handle driving a manual I can manage to take one hand off the wheel to make a quick gesture without killing myself.

I'm amazed at how the safety cage is still there, pretty much undamaged, even if the car was split in half...

Looking at the pictures from TFA, looks like he would still be alive if not ejected from the car (if he could've gotten out before it caught fire)

No wonder NHTSA broke their machine while testing roof resistance

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go...

The 1960 Curtiss Wright Air Car did this. It's a hovercraft, built to look like a car with bumpers, chrome, two-tone color scheme, and convertible top. Top speed around 38 MPH. 2.5MPG.

Race car design goes in the opposite direction, trying to get as little lift as possible. Some Formula One cars were built with big fans sucking out air from below the vehicle to increase tire contact forces. Worked too well; prohibited by a Formula One rule change.

600 horsepower is nothing.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/videos/videos-monster-dyno-pull-from-saleen-s7

http://jalopnik.com/meet-the-guy-who-drove-across-the-u-s-in-a-record-28-h-1454092837
Yeah, NINETY-EIGHT MPH average speed. With two extra fuel tanks in the trunk for 800 miles range (the thing reeked of gasoline), and the spare tire was on the back seat next to the third guy (spotter/navigator). They didn't just break the previous record, they shattered it.

http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/new-cross-country-record-forget-the-glamor-bring-the-1456737864/@matthardigree
One word: bedpans.

http://jalopnik.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-afroducks-fastest-ma-1256425384
Afroduck is a perfect example of why most people who do this stuff wait a year for statute of limitations reasons. These guys may have been foolish to announce so soon; we shall see what kind of heat they get for it.

Probably because they've become fed up with eco-nutters who insist they should buy a craptastic EV, perhaps not the Tesla Model S but most that have come before because it's the "right thing" to do even if it's a crappy deal. Not too unlike listening to RMS saying you should use open source no matter if it does what you need or not because it's the "right thing" to do. The statistics say second time hybrid buyers are rare, I don't know the stats for EV buyers but not many are on their second car yet. Does it live up to the hype? Does the technology really get all that much better if we get people to use it, or is the very idea fundamentally poor? Modern combustion engines are pretty good at what they do, it's not obvious that EVs will be better for any other reason than that we might run out of oil.

Too many people take Mahatma Gandhi's "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win." like some magic formula for everything. No, many times you stay ignored. No, many times you remain a laughing stock. No, many times you fight and you lose. What about simple things that even if things have been a mess the whole week and I've forgotten to tank/charge but I'm finally ready to go on my cabin weekend trip then my gas car just need a pit stop while my EV is an expensive paperweight while I wait for it to charge at home or I have to drive it to some quick-charger to hang around there. I've managed to make my cell phone black out even though I've had power nearby all the time, but I'm always going to keep a charge on my car? Ideally shit won't happen, practically I'm sure it will.

Road & Track drove the Golf TDI and Jetta over the same roads and in every kind of driving, the Prius was more efficient.

The Prius weighs 3042 lbs. The Golf TDI 4-door weighs 2994 lbs, all of 46 pounds less.

The 2.0 TDI is a fine engine, but an Atkinson-cycle gas engine mated to motor-generators through Toyota's e-CVT is a fundamentally better design. The European Blu*blah diesels that actually do match Prius' mpg are lower powered and have stop-start and brake regen, i.e. they're micro-hybrids.

Apples to oranges. Road and Track is a magazine, Top Gear is TV.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/ - http://www.topgear.com/uk/

You should have said Road and Track and Car.

I've played all the Gran Turismo for PS1 and 2, Forza 2 & 3 and I'd say its more accurate to say Forza is the spiritual successor to GT. I've checked out the previews for GT5 (I don't own a PS3) and I think GT lost its way. The poster above did a really good job explaining why Forza is better now.

Yes, the original article was in the April 2007 issue of Road and Track magazine and in the Side Glances column entitled "A Pound of Feathers" by Peter Egan. Excellent article; people leave issues of R&T around my office... I have a xeroxed copy on my cubicle wall.

E85's fuel efficiency is nowhere near half that of gasoline. educate yourself you dumb muslim loving faggot.
 
getting off of foreign oil alone will be worth it. fuck those muslims in their faggot asses. fuck allah!! fuck islam!!

Very exciting looking car. Much more practical than a small motorcycle or scooter, these pop up for sale everywhere when gas prices go up. Now, how much is it?
If it's too much, then people will just go to Nissan or Honda and ask to see something with a little more power, that can survive on the Interstate Highway System. It's not what a car costs, it is how much per month. You drive it until it needs too many repairs, tires, etc. then trade it in. You are never without a car payment. Not safe to get on the main roads in an old car. Get caught in a sudden downpour? You need a really safe car to get you through that.
These little cute cars get lots of attention, but one week behind the wheel, in your daily routine, and you'll find out that you may need more than average skills to stay alive, for one thing. Is the average driver going to be able to measure up?
Price is no object, just want the small electric car to drive to the store, just around the neighborhood, presuming that you have a nice neighborhood to drive around in. Wouldn't that get old? How about insurance. That costs plenty in most locations. Cops stop odd looking non-mainstream vehicles, especially if they dart around in traffic, attracting attention. Need to have that insurance card ready.
Also, don't plan on taking this car out late at night, drunks are out there, and due to it's small size, you lose in a crash.
What about service? Nissan takes good care of you, visit one of their dealerships and take a look around. Here's a page on the Nissan Versa. This car has plenty of power, take a look at the photo of the engine at that site. It'll run.
Another alternative is Kia, here is a neat little car that comes with 15" wheels, better to take those rough roads, compared to the small wheels on the electric car.
Just a reality check here, don't mean to discourage anyone wanting one of these electric cars of the future. After you tell all your friends that you are saving energy by driving an electric car, that will soon wear off, they will get tired of listening to you. What do you want the car for, to be able to brag about it, or to drive it. So, you can tell everybody that lots of people in Norway drive this car, all they are going to say is that in Norway, they are going to get stuck in a snowbank in that little car.

Rapidweather

Thanks for running the numbers. Here's some more info I found. The battery pack in the Prius is warranteed for 8 years/100,000 mi. Right now, the battery pack costs $3500 retail from the Toyota dealer, and that price is expected to drop much lower in 8 years. I seriously doubt it costs "more than it's worth" to replace the battery.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id =19&article_id=1183&page_number=1

lotus elise: 0-60 in 4.6 seconds
Ford Mustang GT*: 0-60 in 5.3 seconds

*: note, this is the version of the GT with 300hp, not your puny 278

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id =7&article_id=2489&page_number=7

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id =7&article_id=2489&page_number=6

lotus elise: 0-60 in 4.6 seconds
Ford Mustang GT*: 0-60 in 5.3 seconds

*: note, this is the version of the GT with 300hp, not your puny 278

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id =7&article_id=2489&page_number=7

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id =7&article_id=2489&page_number=6

Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Automobile and Road and Track. Being a former mechanic, I love cars. Once a gearhead, always a gearhead. ;-)

Which Audi? RS6?

Very sweet car...

I suggest you start a bit lower though. Get a WRX STi and have it tuned. No, I don't mean riced. Tuned. I suggest the Tommy Kaira engine talked about in this review

Of course if money is no issue get the RS6!!

I was hoping to get the first shot in on the Focus PZEV, but it was actually nice to be beaten.

It has always seemed to me that Alternative Fueled vehicles are a lot like my favorite rule of statistics, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."

How clean is clean? Road & Track had a great article about just that topic last year.

Are there any cars out there better than this?

• Ferrari Enzo Ferrari
• Porsche Carrera GT
• Mercedes McLaren SLR
• Lamborghini Murcielago
• Saleen S7
• Koenigsegg CCR
• Pagani Zonda

Are there any cars out there better than this?

• Ferrari Enzo Ferrari
• Porsche Carrera GT
• Mercedes McLaren SLR
• Lamborghini Murcielago
• Saleen S7
• Koenigsegg CCR
• Pagani Zonda