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Small Electric Car May Usher In Big Changes
An anonymous reader sends us to a profile in CNNMoney.com on a Norwegian car company that is building a compact, plug-in electric car, the Think City, that will go on sale in Europe early next year. It could hit US markets in 2009. The CEO is working with Silicon Valley VCs and with Google, Tesla Motors, PG&E, and Dean Kamen, inventor of the Segway. Plans are to sell the car only on the Web. No dealers, cheap manufacturing plants, and a battery pack that you lease, not buy — there's potential here for shaking up the auto industry the way Dell did PCs.
Are those "big changes" similar to Segway's "Big Changes"?
Dell succeeded because they simplified and streamlined the computer buying process, and had good prices for PCs with reasonable features, compared to the rest of the market.
Other than possibly streamlining the car buying process, how does electric car company compare to Dell? It's not like people in the US are jumping to replace their SUVs and trucks with little electric cars.
Recently Top Gear magazine paid for one of these to be subject to the most basic testing - the results were pretty horrific.
While I am a big fan of the electric cars, I think that we can expect prices on the batteries to go up in the next year or 2.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
$15,000 *without* the battery?! A $100 - $200 monthly fee?!
Bawhahahahaha!!!
That's a good joke, they should take this act to Vegas.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
simply move to quash the Think City before it actually hits the production line?
The CEO is working with ... Dean Kamen, inventor of the Segway
*wipes a tear*
Hold on -- this was a joke, right? Please tell me this was a joke.
> no dealers
Question: where do you get it serviced?
I think it's a good idea with a lot of potential here in Europe, maybe not in the US.
For me it's definitely enough car. For most people it would make a great second car.
From their homepage:
Range: 180km
Speed: max. 100km/h
A max. speed of 120km/h would be nicer, but range and speed are sufficient for all of the routes on which I prefer car over train.
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
It should be
Does it run fast?
Does it run cheap?
Why? Because these are as funny as yours (now), and a lot more interesting.
If I were to design a car these days, I would do as these guys did and use an electric motor for propulsion, and a Stirling engine for power generation. For those not in the know, Stirling engines are engines that run on heat. They can be powered by pretty much anything that generates enough heat, including but not limited to fossil fuels. Compared to conventional combustion engines, they Stirling engines are more efficient, but they take a lot of time to increase or decrease speed. That is a problem when using them for driving the wheels, but not when generating elcetricity.
Thanks to AKAImBatman for pointing me at Stirling engines; I first read about them on his blog.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Note to all electric car makers out there: If it's uglier than the Smart cars, I'm not interested.
Yeah I could see this working in Europe... possibly. Cosying up to Google (evil as they tend to be these days) could prevent the whole project being sat upon by the oil companies (but at what price?).
But my issue is with the selling mechanism- so all the parts are made in different countries? What is the carbon footprint of shipping the different parts to the different assembly points? Fine it could be smaller than shipping complete cars from a central factory, but they don't mention anything about what they're going to do to reduce this step's footprint.
Please wake me when I can help save the environment without declaring bankruptcy.
Experience teaches only the teachable. -AH
For $15,000, surely they can fit a BlendTec(TM) in there somewhere; for when I need a smoothie (blech) on the go!
I don't see this thing taking off unless they can halve the price. I love my PT Cruiser (first new car I've ever purchased) which was a little over 13,000. This thing is tempting, but not at that price! Now if we were talking $7500, and it passed crash testing, I would seriously consider one.
did we ever discuss about the Indian electric car company Reva any time in the past? Their latest variant, Reva i, released this month costs around USD 9K (at exchange rate of INR 40 per USD).
Sure, it can only do a top speed of around 50MPH with a range of 60 Miles per charge, but I guess that's enough for city driving? I don't know, but is USD 9K too much for a small electric car that can carry two adults & two children in your place? In India, it is a viable option as a second car, for the growing numbers of nouveau rich at least.
-- Prem
Aiming to tweet on a rice
For those of you who are about to RTFA: be warned, it contains businessspeak.
I have no idea what they mean by describing the car as "open-source". Also, they can't seem to decide whether it's a car, a glorified terminal, a power generator, or an iPod.
I also get the eerie impression that it is vaporware. Golden mountains are being promised, but will they be delivered? With so many rich people being enthusiastic about it, there is just a chance, but still, I don't want to get my hopes squashed again.
All in all, it looks very cool. I want one.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Nonstandard cars (electric and hybrid) as currently conceived, are likely to remain curiosities. To begin with, when doing the numbers they are not all that cheap to run. Second, at least in the case of electric cars, they still have pitiful performance/price ratios. Third (and perhaps most damning) they look either dorky (most hybrids) or ridiculous (most electric cars.) Compare them against the status symbols that most of us buy, and you'll see that the masses are not likely to go for them. Much will have to change before the advantages afforded by these technologies offset those issues.
"Hi, I'm an electric car. I can't go very fast...or very far...and if you drive me, people will think you're gay." "One of us, one of us" Don't hit me *guards face*
I got to the part about $15,000 to $17,000 U.S. PLUS 100-200 dollars a month in fees.
You can buy a, very fuel efficient compact import for a third less. Frankly, that thing makes a Kia look cool. Any savings in fuel are utterly obliterated by the cost of leasing the battery and "fees". I want an electric as much as anyone else, but that's a lot of cash to lay out. I'm sure they'll sell some to people who just want an electric car, but novelty isn't going to drive an industry.
I hope they're around long enough to drive down some costs and improve their product.
The whole bit about pushing electricity back into the grid... I don't know what battery efficiency is these days, but from what I remember you'll _spend_ about 60% more for the privilege. No thanks.
Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
"Small Electric Car May Usher In Big Changes" Next weeks headline: "Small Snowball freezes Big Bad Gates of Hell"
The Bible: Historically verifiable fact from an observers point of view
The price is actually from Germany. That's where I saw a Gas station this morning, now I'm in the Netherlands and here it's more around $1.90 or $2.00 for a liter.
For an international price list take a look at this (prices in EURO).
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
Supply a micro generator that uses a tank of gas/diesel sold at a one time cost, that would screw up their battery loan business plan.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Selling via the web may sound cool, but at least one state (Texas) requires that a retail automobile purchase be conducted through a brick-and-mortar dealer.
as i recall, a loophole allowed pickups & suvs to escape cafe regs, directly leading to their boom in popularity...can't wait 2 c the unintended consequences of this 1;-)
otoh, leasing may b the solution to the battery-life problem.
Current technologies exist to generate electricity carbon free.
Nuclear (70%+ of all electricity around here)
Wind is already competitive price-wise with coal. Its main problems are that they require massive initial investment, and that it takes A LOT of time to get over all the Nimbys. Wind also happens to be unpredictable, but that's a non issue as far as battery charging is concerned. All that's required is a broadcast flag to tell the charger to stop sucking current when not enough power is available.
these vehicles are not the same as the vehicle that the article is about. It is not about to go on sale this year or the next. There is nothing that you can order yet, so there is nothing you can crash test. The test was with a totally different vehicle. If one SUV did bad in a crash test (like killing some bystanding dummies that were not even in the test), does that make all SUVs bad? (well OK, SUV are still bad, but for other reasons). ,made in different factory. Or are all electric vehicles the same?
Some other poster pointed out your strawman is called g-wiz(made in India), which is a different vehicle
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People in Europe will. Ever been to Pars or any other European city? Small lanes, small parking spaces, a lot of traffic. And best of all: current price for 1 liter 98oct gasoline is about 1.5 EUR, that is 2 USD.
I own a BMW convertible, awesome car to drive, but it uses 10L/100km.. I'd definitely buy a small electric car if it would be low cost. Just to make the smaller trips, less than 10km. That's what most people do here, most of us don't drive further than 20km a day.
All it takes is enough plugs to be available. You don't have to refill, just to plug the thing in when you park. Surely you can spare 30s of your time every day?
Hi Jonoton,
you are thinking of 'quadracycles'. These dont need submitted for NCAP.
This car- the Ford Think, which was available in the UK a couple of years
ago, is NCAP rated.
And- the crash test you are thinking about was for a machine called the
G-Wiz. Not this Ford Think.
Okay?
In your scenario with the moped your body would take the full blown 60kmh deceleration onto the pavement. or on the car front. At least with those small car a bit would be taken by the structure, even if it is minimal, it is certainly better than on a moped.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
He is trying to fit a compact stirling engine in.
So your comment was rather superfluous, except for the 'I' part. Which we are not interested in.
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Think cars have been around in Norway for quite some time. They have a number of supporting measures from the government, such as lower taxes (taxes on a new car are about as much as the car itself over here), they can use reserved lanes and are exempt from city toll rings (fairly common, even if they removed the one where I live).
A thing you will have to get used is not to rely on your ears when crossing a road. These cars are very silent, once I almost got run over by one because it was so silent that I thought there couldn't possibly be any car around; in fact it was just a meter or two behind me. Luckily it was just the university campus and the car was driving very slow...
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
I have somewhere the plans for turning an opal gt into a 150 mile a gallon vehicle.
A car that is powered by a dc jet engine starting motor that is in turn powered by a 5 hp brigg and stratten lawn mower engine that turns an electric generator. There are also batteries that the car can run off or but when slowing down to stop some of the breaking power is by reverse power direction that takes the breaking force and converts it back to electricty to store in the batteries.
These plans are from the 1970's from mother earth news magizine.
So in the past 30 or so years we still don't have any real improvements in gas millage???? What the fuck?
But here is an idea. Take the City, remove the lease by removing the batteries and replace it with a lawn mower engine based power plant or better yet, a smaller than lawn mower engine sized rotary engine based power plant.
Or if you read playboy (aug issue) consider a lawn mower engine sized veggie oil burning engine that is small and simple enough that your backyard mechanic can cheaply enough deal with the problems of that type of engine.
This is fucking ridiculous and really should be becoming more publicized as to the obviousness of the intentional failure of the auto industry to not already have vehicles that get upwards of 200 miles a gallon vehicles being sold to the general public and at very affordable proces.
The lease stuff about the City batteries should be a hit....
They suggest they will be using a Li-ion battery. I sincerely hope for them they will be using LiFePo chemistry, as ordinary Li-ion and Li-polymer batteries only last around 200-500 cycles.(NiMH is similar and weighs two times more) That means you'd have to buy a new battery every one or two years. The batteries as produced by a123systems can handle 1000-2000 cycles according to the manufacturer. These batteries are a bit heavier, but live longer, don't 'explode' in a crash and are a bit cheaper at ~$1/WattHour.
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Here's the text:
Wizened is indeed a word. To use a synonym:
The consumer has generally shriveled up...
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Tiny cars don't sell well. They're difficult to schlep kids to school and a dozen bags of mulch home from Lowe's. Small cars are seen as unitakers, and most americans need their cars to fill a number of roles.
Plus, without a way to recharge the battery in roughly the time it takes to fill up a gas tank, what the hell are these things good for? Short distance commuting? Corbin already tried it, with a better looking mini-car, and failed. Miserably. Americans generally have no use for automotive unitaskers - most of them have long highway commutes and the occasional road-trip, and they want to do both in the same car.
Ugly cars also don't sell well. I don't mean "Quirky styling" like the Scion xB or Suzuki Aero, or bland styling, like a Chrysler Sebring or Toyota Corolla. I mean, East German levels of "Couldn't Be Bothered With It" styling: truly and deeply misguided design choices no-one paused to give a second thought to, complete with panel gaps you can see with the naked eye from low earth orbit and colors chosen for their complete inability to catch the eye.
Efficient and cheap isn't going to get you anywhere near public acceptance. It's got to offer a lot more... the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius look goood, they're slick productions with a lot more to offer than 50mpg. The Prius in particular has been successful because it offers near-luxury comfort and conveniences with econobox mileage and futuristic styling. (The other hybrid makers are also having a hard time grokking this, so we get Hybrid Civics and Mariners no-one is particularly enthusiastic over.)
The Smart FourTwo is a tiny, inexpensive car with great styling and sybaritic creature comforts, and Daimler =still= won't bring it to the US because there's no real market for it here. The Think, an ugly plug-in doo-dad, is doomed before it even starts. Dell? Try Osbourne.
SoupIsGood Food
The air car runs on vapor (ie. air). They have been promising it for years. It keeps not happening. They did test one and were able to demonstrate a range of about five miles. They write about the tests and, citing possible improvements to the technology, go on to extrapolate the range out to about 170 miles.
/. the other day, the tanks could be quite cheap to manufacture. http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/2 8/1526205&from=rss
http://www.theaircar.com/tests.html
The air car does have one important advantage over battery vehicles. Air tanks last a long time and don't involve nasty, polluting, expensive chemicals. Given the new, very strong carbon paper that was written up on
Anyway, the battery car actually exists and does get a useful range. Its limitations are economic not technical.
Electric cars, however, bring their own problems. If we shift 1.000.000 drivers that used to drive fossil fueled cars to electric cars we don't really solve anything since the electricity that powers those cars is going to have to come from somewhere. That means building a lot more electric power-plants. In the USA in particular there is likely to be huge pressure from the corporate lobby and other special interest groups to build lots of coal fired power-plants and China also seems unlikely to stop building them. The one advantage of electric cars is that at least you exercise some measure of control over the pollution generated by millions of cars in a few locations, the power-plants, and once a new technology for generating energy with less pollution comes along you can switch to it in a matter of years by building new power-plants or upgrading the old ones. You don't have to wait while for several generations of fossil fueled cars to go out of circulation and are replaced by more efficient models like we do today.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
OK, so maybe we need small, medium, and large batteries, plus a couple of bigger sizes for trucks, buses, RVs, and those 4x4s needed for all that rugged terrain around the suburban malls :-) but the last thing we need is some dipshit marketing droid inventing new and proprietary batteries that you have to get from the manufacturer. Suppose you bought a Toyota but you had to go to a Toyota garage to get your gas...
Is there a comprehensive list of reasonably available electric vehicles?
The Reva ( http://www.revaindia.com/ ) has already been mentioned elsewhere in this thread --- one which I actually considered purchasing is the Twike ( http://www.twike.com/ ) (really more of an enclosed three wheel recumbent bicycle) --- there are some others though. A quick search on Google reveals:
- http://www.zapworld.com/
- http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php
- http://www.gemcar.com/
- http://www.zenncars.com/
There was an article in the local (Harrisburg, PA) paper recently about a local who'd purchased an all-electric scooter, and another about a (school teacher?) who had refurbished an electric car from the 70s which was street-legal 'causeit was grand-fathered in.
Of all the above, the only one which seems to have full equivalency to a gasoline powered vehicle is the Tesla (which is ~$100,000 if memory serves) --- I thought about getting a Twike, but it's ~$20,000, and would've required me to rent a vehicle for vacations, or to drive our other car (an 8 year old Cavalier w/ ~130,000 miles), so got a Chevy Aveo ($9,999 when I bought it the other year).
William
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
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I hope we soon can wire our homes with superconducting (or other high efficiency) wiring and other exremely low-loss transducers, so we can generate power at home and use it for max efficiency. AC/DC conversion and transmission over any distance starts cutting the whole efficiency down to unusable sizes pretty quick. Since home generation is generally low power, but can be steady (even while the home is vacant or people are sleeping), maximum efficiency transmission is an excellent place to improve overall productivity. Perhaps even enough to get over the threshold, turning the distributed power grid into more of a backup than a primary source.
Eventually we'll get high-efficiency wide-area interconnects, but in the meantime, the home is a place which can start the conversion with much lower investment and cooperation from power corporations mainly in the pocket of centralized power generating industries.
Did you make sure your home wiring is all through conduits that can be upgraded easily?
--
make install -not war
AFAICT, in the US we either go over to electric cars powered by nuclear power stations, or we start to pay European prices for our fuel.
European prices are around $10 per gallon.
For much less than that, we invaded Iraq. If prices rise like this, we would be forced to invade Saudi Arabia, as well as Venezuala and Nigeria. That would keep us going for a while.
Does anyone know any other cheap sources of oil?
The notion of not having a showroom sort of makes sense, but the savings will be limited. After all, they're going to have to set up that car-sharing franchise instead, and that franchise will have to employ someone who can talk to prospective owners, and they'll have to vehicle available, which may mean investing in a demo car.
Also, where will these vehicles be maintained? Independent garages aren't usually the first to invest in new equipment and training to service unusual cars (e.g. handling high-voltage equipment and large batteries that can discharge at 1000 A).
I expect these cars will need less maintenance than internal combustion vehicles, though. I just had my car in for its 15 Mm checkup, and of the E 370 bill, maybe E 40 was for items unrelated to the engine (an interior filter and balancing two tires IIRC). This means routine stuff could be handled by any garage (or tire fitter, for that matter). It's just the high-voltage electric stuff that needs a specialist.
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i'm a cab driver. i drive 300-500 miles a day.
the taxi company buys old police cars, gigantic, gas-guzzling V8's, because they're easy to get parts for and easy to fix. the drivers are the ones paying the $500/week to keep them moving, so they don't care.
i think this car is a great idea. increase the range, up the max speed to 75, and make it large enough to seat four people, and it'll be the next big thing.
as far as speed is concerned, i drive all night long. there's no reason for the max speed of a commuter car to be higher than 75. driving faster is your own impatience. if you stop and realize that you're not the most important person on the road, you'll stop wanting to burn gas going so quick.
the shared power grid features of the car are the amazing part. not only is it a mode of transport, it's a mobile capacitor to help the city's power demands. that is truly thinking different. i can't wait to see this concept go worldwide.
i'm all for it.
America - Home of the scapegoat, land of the Corporation
and their bottom mileage figures are going to be closing in on 20mpg... at that point many who thought of switching when gas gets over $3 are simply going to get a hybrid tech'd SUV.
Combine this with the fact that many new technologies being developed to create hyper efficient small cars can also easily be adapted for big vehicles and pretty soon you'll be back to where you started.
In fact, its far easier to make the big SUV and trucks this way. They have more slack in their price than small cars meaning some of the new tech's cost can be absorbed and the final price more tolerable for consumers.
In other words, the world of big SUVs isn't going anywhere, its going to transform into more fuel efficient forms because it has to. People want big vehicles and all this gee-whiz fuel tech works just fine in that size too. Hell, a series hybrid would be very easy to do in the space afforded by most SUVs. They even have loads of space for batteries under the chassis.
Go check out the spec's on the new hybrid-Tahoes coming out. Then think down the road how new technologies will further increase their efficiency which at the same times decreases the desire to be rid of them
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
This whole thing has been visited time and time again and there is plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise out there that this will be killed off before it even has a chance to start. They will simply make laws in Congress to forbid ownership of these here in this country and continue the perpetuation of oil consumption and its growth. There is too much money vested and large return on investment in anything using oil and gasoline. Anyone who thinks this is phony need simply look back at our own history of electric vehicles. There must be truth to the rumors of big oil stopping this because this is where all the money is and always has been, and they can pretty much buy and sell Congress and hence laws. Remember that all they must declare is that they are not street-legal!
Segway made it because it's not a car and cannot be considered as serious and necessary transportation.
This whole issue of electric cars vs. Dell computer, is pointless since it's apples and oranges. They're two different animals.
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Rather than all these crappy mileages, what they should do, is get a distribution with the big petrol stations, make the power cells easily removable, you pull into the traditional petrol station, and instead of sitting there for the next few hours charging the battery, just slip the used one out and slide in a new one stored at the petrol station, of course the petrol station recharges your old one and charges a fee for the fully charged new one, it would be cheap, greatly increase the range and all the recharging worries that are currently around would be gone.
sometimes you read an article and it's so damn great... like an awesome sales pitch.. you read to the end and the stupidity rises and you look at the price and walk away.
stupid.
people are just plain stupid!
$35K for a shitbox?
hell make it $8k and i'm all over it. in a heartbeat.
TV commercials notwithstanding, there are oddly no mountainous dirt roads and swamps between my home and work.
...with selling such a tiny car in the US is that "Escalade" is French for "trash compactor".
Has anyone else noticed that they now have robot planes that can be flown from the other side of the world, and shoot missiles at people on the ground, but yet the average citizen's flying car is yet to materialize? Now we're being told that they have to make cars smaller to make 'em run on batteries, even with fuel cell technology etc.
Seems to me that there might be something going on here besides technological limitations. I wonder when governments realised it would be hard to track and chase people who could travel in three dimensions easily?
That is the question. Will it blend?
The game.
Monorail, Monorail, Monorail.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
A race to the North Pole in a Toyota pick-up? That man's got balls. You don't do that in a little electric golf-cart.
You could do it in a golf cart, as long as you're not a brass monkey. And on the contrary, since the Toyota is designed for off-road conditions it's the pansy's choice. Real men go by dog sled (low carbon, but the methane emissions are lethal).
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Why does every damned economical car have to _look_ like an economy car? Why not put an all-electric concept into a Miata, MR2, RX-8, S2000, or other coupe (or coupe+)? Give me a damned spyder hard-top. I would really like an electric car. I drive a 5.4L V8 F150 for work - and I need it for some of the construction sites I'm on - but it gets absolutely horrible mileage, about 14mpg. I commute about 1 mile to work (yes, I do bike from time to time, and walk occasionally, too) and many of my in-town meetings could easily be done from a little 2 seater. I could probably put about 1/2 the mileage on my truck if I had something smaller. I'm no fashion diva (see F150, above), but there is no way I'm going to be seen in some fugly eco-box. If you're going to make me feel cool by driving a green car, at least keep me from being taken for a dork by driving something that looks like it came out of the back end of a chicken.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Well... His disposable income clearly has :-)
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
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In London you don't have to pay the congestion charge if you're in a hybrid or electric car. I don't think you'll see many people want to drive one of these for safety reasons.
When you have huge 4x4 (SUVs) on the roads then you'll feel unsafe in something so small. The laws will need to change to restrict numbers of large 4x4s or just tax them off the roads, exemption if you can prove you need one for your business.
VW's Toureg can already get up to 25 MPG, real world. Semi trucks can see 7-8 MPG, as good as a Hummer and they're actually pulling a load.
Diesel is going to make a bigger impact that hybrids in the coming years.
Keep in mind that this car is produced in Norway where prices for cars and gas/fuel is very high. Actually buying the batterypackage would make the car even more expensive in initial costs, and render the car almost worthless when the batterypackage is in need for replacement. Using this "subscription"-method the carcost is seperated from the batterycost and thus it's practical lifespan increases (and also second hand price). As for gasprices is Norway: Right now it's about 11 NOK for 1 metric liter. There is 3,785 metric liters in one gallon, so that makes one gallon cost aprox. $7,3
I think you mean the Diesel-electric hybrid. In this there is only one combined motor generator. The engine can charge a battery while moving, and the battery can move the vehicle slowly in town and restart the engine almost instantly when needed, just as in a gasoline hybrid. The truth is that gasoline hybrids have been mainly cosmetic environmentalism with poor payback of the initial excess energy investment in the batteries and electric motors. Diesel hybrids could do better, especially since it's easy to design a Diesel engine for a 6000h-plus life and thus achieve much better dust to dust costs. (300000 mile service life versus maybe 120000 for a Prius.)
Pining for the fjords
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Most pure electric cars have no air conditioner, which makes them unsalable in most of the U.S. The hybric cars use their gas engine to run the AC. I'm not sure DK's stirling engine would have enough umph to run an AC as well.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
There is no law saying that an electric has to be small. Actually electric engines outperform combustion engines, so if anyone could just invent some fantastic batteries your mega 4x4 truck would not be far away.
Here in India, a company Reva have a small plugin car available for a few years now.
It hasn't been a big hit, but you can spot a few of them in Bangalore streets.
god n. : the Supreme Being, indistinguishable from a good random number generator.
FTA:
It's no Tesla Roadster -- the current battery is speed-limited to 62 miles an hour. But it is nimble and quick and goes about 112 miles on a single charge.
STIRLING SOLUTION: Dean Kamen's heat engine could extend the Think's range by hundreds of miles, turning the car into a mobile generator.
Finding ways out of the harm caused by cars is important. When they make progress on practical electric cars, we shouldn't be talking about what was available five years ago as if nothing had changed. Especially since what was available five years ago didn't even have the best battery available installed.
Finally modding someone offtopic when they rant about what "Begging the Question" means: priceless.
Full size 20 mpg SUV? Already been done. Ford killed it at the end of the 2005 production year. It bore the brunt of many SUV jokes, and drew the ire of many environmental groups. It was called the Excursion. My wife still has hers. With the diesel engine in good shape, and careful driving, we've recorded (paper method, no kidding) 22 mpg highway.
What's funny is, you always find yourself on the defensive with a vehicle like this. People assume it gets 8 mpg, and ask why you don't get a mini van. This would net us maybe 3 -5 mpg more (based on my MIL's 05 Honda...), loose half the capacity & towing ability, and I couldn't run biodiesel. If I could get a diesel hybrid, I'd buy another.
A co-worker bought a hybrid GM 1/2-ton truck. I got a good look at it last time I was in the SF bay area. Not bad, but too light duty to be considered by serious pickup truck users. I'm waiting to see how they stack up pulling construction/farm trailers, or an RV.
I don't drive up mountains with deer in the back. I do, however, drive about six miles each way for work, and short grocery runs during the week. I bought a scooter that gets 80mpg, but I'm definitely interested in something that can get the same or better mileage but keep me out of the elements.
Just because you don't think something is useful doesn't mean other people don't.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
There was an article in a local Toronto newspaper yesterday concerning an electric motorcycle at a drag race in Portland Ore. http://www.wheels.ca/article/30277 "PORTLAND, Ore. - Straddling a 280-kilogram motorcycle, Scotty Pollacheck tucks in his knees and lowers his head as he waits for the green light. When he revs the engine, there's no roar. The bike moves so fast that within seconds all that's visible is a faint red taillight melting in the distance. Pollacheck crosses the quarter-mile marker doing 156 m.p.h.(251 km/h); he's traveled 1,320 feet (402 m) in 8.22 seconds, faster than any of the gas-powered cars, trucks or motorcycles that have raced in the drag sprints on this weekend at Portland International Raceway" "The fastest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle is the KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane world record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last year." " In December, the KillaCycle will receive a second-generation battery pack that will have twice as much juice as its current 374-volt system, giving it close to 1,000 horsepower. Fulop said he believes the KillaCycle can break the drag racing motorcycle record within the next year. Electric drag racers are test-driving the technology that will eventually spill over into mass production cars, analysts say." " The Chevrolet Volt, which is expected to be released in 2010, is a consumer hybrid that uses gas to power a charger and can travel 1,030 km on a tank of gas and up to 64 km on one electric charge. Dube and other EV racers say electric cars aren't just about 2-cent-a-mile transportation, lessening reliance on foreign oil or curbing global warming. They're also about performance. For electric cars to matter, people have to buy them," he said. "If you have a car that is faster than everyone else's, if it's electric so be it, but people will buy it.''" CH
This is the main cause why this will most likely fail. Because of the size of the United States. People in Europe, Asia and New York City, Don't really apreate the size of the United States. Geographically The United States is a little smaller then all of Europe. There is a far amount of distance people needs to cover from residentual areas to comerical areas. For me it is about Ten Miles (I am considered to be living close to the cities) For other people they will need to drive Twenty Miles to get to the closest store that sells anything of value. Granted we don't need SUVs to get from here and there but we do need some type of car with a long range and can relialibly maintain a top speed of about 70-80 miles per hour (I know the speed limit is 65 but if everyone else is going 80 you better be too or you will get rear ended) for 200-300 miles minimum. Living in Cities are generally not desirable living conditions when there is plenty of space out there where you can buy a bigger house with more land outside the city for less and also deal with less Crime and Noise from the City.
For these electric cars to succeede they will need to be very cheap (no more then 2k) Roomy enough to cary children and cargo, and safe enough for people to use. Any thing less then these specs would probably make it a huge deal breaker making americans still stuck to gasoline cars for all their driving. If they can meet these requirements then there is a chance that many americans will have a car for short distance driving and a long distance car.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
So today we're making computer analogies about a car...
I would be very interested in buying such an electric car. As someone who lives in a large city, the small size is a good thing (helps in finding parking and such).
The problem is that a large quantity, if not most of the people that live in big cities, where these sorts of vehicles are targeted, live in apartments, condos, flats, etc. We don't, for the most part, have garages. That means, the car is sitting on the street at night and in order to charge it, I'd have to find some way to run an enormous extension cord out of my apartment to the car. That's just totally impractical. Often I can't even find a parking spot for my car in front of my building. Even if I could do this, chances are someone will trip over the cord as they walk down the sidewalk, or it will cause some other catastrophe. Worse, in the winter when the streets and sidewalks are covered in snow, plows will come by and just mangle the power cord.
I wish they'd stop targeting these types of vehicles to people living in large cities... they're far better suited to someone living in a suburban area that must commute into the city for his/her job.
The next car purchase I make, I'd like to find something that is more environmentally friendly than the regular gas vehicles I've purchased in the past. But this one practical issue is a major stumbling block for all-electric vehicles.
First alot of you seem to have the impression that this isnt possible.
Ok, so go buy an electic car then... Oh wait, you didnt? why not? OH thats right, the only way you really can is if you build it yourself.
Ok, so there's hybrid's... YAY, i dont think so - just read up about hybrids and you start to think "oh, right they're not really anywhere near as good as they claim to be".
Car manufactures have barely attempted to build electics - the EV1 was a good case in point. Now even if you dont believe that the car companies are "in bed with the petrol companies" (and i tend be to a fence sitter on that one). What incentive is there for them to do it? are you not going to buy a car because they dont make electric? unlikely, the only people that might do that is 0.00001% of car enthusiasts that build electics (and there is some seriously impressive EV's out there if you google) and seriously fanatical anti-petrol people.
But what are the incentives to do this?
1) environment - what company cares about that? seriously - who have you seen do this except companies that do seem to actually care, those with an image problem (trying to fix it), or those forced to act by the government. Further to that, you see tonnes of ad's for the hybrids, for how car companies are "working on it", and how their next generation is going to be heaps better.
2) removal of oil from the economy - now before you shoot me with "well this wouldnt remove oil from the economy, remember that its a step in the right direction. Again, this is not an incentive for a car company. This is only an incentive for humanity.
3) a jump on the market - "we're the first out with an electic car". GM already tried it with the EV1 and it failed (whether you believe it was failed deliberately or not).
4) Image - see 1. How many of you hate merc, bmw, honda, gm, ford, toyota, suburu, etc because they produce petrol cars? the vast majority writes, reads, appears on tv, or wont shutup about how the latest xyx from car company abc is soooo much faster than the last generation, or how it does this or that.
5) Renewable energy sources - renew-a-what now? are you talking about re-tread tires?
And what are the down sides:
1) huge investment - thats right, its gunna take money to produce it (i think they quoted something like 2bil to produce the ev1 prototype?)
2) hybrids are so much easier to "invent" - after all they're around to make you feel like your doing something for environment and your fuel bill, not so you actually can achieve anything
3) investment in petrol motors - yes, we've been building those for years and every year we get more efficient at it so shutup your whinging everyone wants a hummer anyway (what retards buy these btw? I really cant understand how anyone who owns these ridiculous vehicles is smart enough to earn enough money to buy one in the first place).
The only way it will ever happen is if we start seeing something like this:
1) car companies having to foot the bill based on their emissions
2) big government incentive to build electic - billions, not millions
3) social incentives (car spaces only for ev, toll-free for ev, etc etc)
or
4) a company starts from scratch and pushes out an electic car. They'll have alot to learn, but if they get some people behind them the other companies better start watching their backs. And guess what, he's been looking at it from the EV enthusiasts view. Which means he's giving people an incentive to install solar panels on their house (and that is a big plus one way or another).
Now for driving around where I live, these would be perfect. I live in AU, so driving to my parents house is out of the question (a short trip of 200km's on high-speed freeways), but he's sure getting in at the right time. He's not the only one wising up to this either. The best part is he's doing it the right way.
You cant rely on a gov't to provide the funding for doing something like this because they really dont care (as we've proven time
Short commutes, use no or very little fuel. But if you want to go to grandmas house 500 miles away, you can still use the same car and not worry about finding a plug in 100 miles.
Diesel is going to make a bigger impact that hybrids in the coming years.
They already have, in Europe. Diesels account for 50% of car sales in some countries. But diesel isn't without its problems. Governments worry about particulate emissions (and are considering road tax increases to dissuade people from buying diesels).
There's nothing to prevent hybrid systems where the ICE component is a diesel. There isn't one available now, because the European car makers were concentrating on diesels instead (and on catching up with the Japanese in manufacturing efficiency and reliability). They were caught off guard on the whole hybrid idea.
A hybrid drivetrain can be more efficient than is possible with an ICE (petrol or diesel) only.
The next trend that's going to have a big impact is smaller, more efficient petrol engines. We're seeing the first cars come out now where a 2-litre engine has been replaced by a 1.4 with a turbocharger, with the same max. power output while using less fuel and better emissions figures.
I live in Texas and drive a Chevy pickup truck. I shop at Lowes/Home Depot/etc at least once a week and need to haul large stuff very frequently. I commute 11 miles each way from home to work each day, and include the time driving between the office and some eatery for lunch each workday, that's about 25 miles per workday I have to drive.
Also bear in mind that the drive from one side of one of our big metropolitan cities (D/FW Metroplex or Houston) to the other side is like driving most all the way across your whole country of The Netherlands from Amsterdam all the way to the Germany border. And we often have to make such a trip at least once or twice a month to shop for some things because the businesses are spread out so far and wide across the "metroscape", but you can certainly get anything you want in the big cities here..... except..... out.
the insanity of the rampant slovenly and gluttonous consumerism prevalent today simply astounds me... i'm no fruit-boot riding, peak-oil moaning, tree-hugging nut job, but at least i can see the utility of riding a bicycle instead of firing up a motorized vehicle...
(although, as many cyclists know, good bicycles now cost as much as a cheap car)
and hybrid electric cars is that they all look like Star Trek shuttlecrafts had they been designed by homosexuals. Now, this may please the sterile, androgynous, yuppie hipster Apple computer crowd, but what about the other 99% of us? Can we please have a car that doesn't scream "Hey, I'm cruising for gay sex?"
I sold my turbo'd Focus for a 2006 Scion xA in 2005 just to realize some savings in fuel costs, then when things went even higher I was feeling pretty good about the little bugger. I thought I'd miss a lot from the performance/power side of things but honestly it's grown on me. I don't think I could go back to less than 35MPG, and it has become a past time to see how much I can get (44MPG is my best so far). I get the same or better mileage as a Prius, paid ~$8,000 less than a Prius, and have no battery or complexities to worry about.
Now for this plug in vehicle. I am a strong believer that any company who can bring back the $10k new car will clean up. My father works for GM and I know it can be done, but has been squashed just about every step of the way. If this vehicle could get to $10k (even 11k) and include the battery fee for the first year, then I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
I have a odd car dealer by my house that sells replica's and oddballs of all sorts (Once I almost bought a Delorean there) and they have been selling the Mercedes smart cars. People are flying in from all over the country daily for them and the waiting list is up to 18 months right now. The price? $60,000. Honestly, people are dying to drop 60 g's for a tiny smart car like this one... the market is there at any price, but for mass adoption and disruption of the market $10k would be it.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Killed? It's not dead, it's pining for the fjords.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Everything about the concept screams ease of use. No - wait - it actually sounds needlessly complicated. Well, that's an instant win in the marketplace. People LOVE complicated things!
I'll wait for the Tesla Sedan that coming out next after the sportscar - thanks. The key to Tesla's product is it works and handles like today's machines. They also don't look like a highway disaster waiting to happen.
"What's the blue thing stuck to my truck's grill"?
Only about 20 percent of Americans live in rural areas and need to drive twenty miles to the shops (which, incidentally, is well within the round-trip range of these vehicles).
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Like the giant penny you can put in the back to make it spin around and do wheelies.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Diesels are more efficient, but some of the perceived "efficiency" is actually that diesel is a more dense fuel. A gallon of diesel contains more carbon than a gallon of gas, and thus releases more CO2 when burned. It also takes more crude to make it.
Don't get me wrong, I am very excited that clean diesels are coming to the states, and that more diesel cars are available - diesel engines are more efficient... I just wanted to point out that comparing MPG is kind of meaningless, since diesel crams more energy into a gallon.
Your numbers are a bit off, BTW... You can make an H2 get as low as 8 MPG if you really try, but they get about 13 MPG on the highway. Road and Track even got over 15. Take a semi trailer off of the highway, and you'll be far below the 7-8 MPG number that you state. The average for semi trailers is actually 6 MPG, IIRC... but it really depends on the load and conditions. 4-8 is probably a better range.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Try riding Amtrak sometime. The last time I did, it took me 11 hours to make a journey that would have taken 3 hours by car (Austin, TX to Dallas, TX). The passengers were practically rioting as we sat motionless on the tracks and stared at the Dallas skyline taunting us. Like most things that have a horrendously bloated budget yet somehow still manage to fail miserably, Amtrak is heavily subsidized by the government. Still want Uncle Sam to tell you if and when you can have an operation?
Though that can be a factor. I'm 6' 1" myself, and I hated my wife's late 80's Toyota for that reason. There was no way someone 6'+ was going to ride comfortably for more than a few minutes in a car designed by and for midgets. I could hardly get my legs under the steering wheel and the rear "seat" was basically a seat in name only.
Leaving comfort aside, though--now I've got a daughter who is 14 months old. There's no way that I'm going to put her in a car seat in some 500 lb bit of plastic and drive around sharing the streets with badly driven box trucks and 18-wheelers. There's no "cost savings" that's worth that.
And frankly, all the talk about how SUVs are the big danger to small cars is ridiculous. Sure there are a lot of blonde soccer moms out there talking on the phone while driving their Excursions--but far more dangerous (and scary) are the hordes of untrained, ignorant, and oblivious drivers of heavy equipment: big delivery trucks and tractor-trailers. You might get injured if a Suburban hits your Suzuki, but when a Peterbuilt meets a Prius, it's the end of the line.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
I guess I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but look at the top truck/SUV manufacturers and see where they are offering their biggest/most prominent rebates now. This doesn't mean that people en masse are gunning for "little electric cars", but I think it may indicate that gas prices that are staying high might have woken a few people up. Finally. ;-)
:) )
Manufacturer's are all ramped up for volume truck production, so they can't afford *not* to sell them...buyers aren't (I'm suggesting) as hot for trucks/SUV's as they were in the 90's and early 2000's...hence lots of strong manufacturer rebates!
(I'll save everyone the hassle and just copy and paste from the respective manufacturer sites [where possible] for you...Google on your own for two seconds if you don't belive these numbers.
Ford
Focus $2,500, Fusion $1,000, Mustang $1,500, Five Hundred $2,000, Freestyle $2,000, Edge $1,000 - 0% APR Financing* OR Cash Back
F-150,Ranger,Super Duty,Escape,Explorer,Expedition,Sport Trac - 0% APR Financing* PLUS $2007 cash back
Chevrolet's only "Featured offer"
0% APR for 60 months1 on all half-ton extended and crew cabs for well qualified buyers. Silverado has the best available highway fuel economy2 and a warranty better than Ford. Better than Toyota. That's 0% APR for 60 months1 on our most popular Silverado models.
GMC's list...
All-New Sierra 1500 Regular Cab (1) $1,500 Cash Allowance AND $500 Bonus Cash OR 0% APR AND $500 Bonus Cash
All-New Sierra 1500 Extended/Crew Cab (1) $1,500 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
All-New Sierra 2500/3500 (1) $1,500 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
Sierra 1500 Classic Series Regular Cab (1) $3,000 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
Sierra 1500 Classic Series Extended Cab (1) $3,000 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
Sierra 1500 Classic Series Crew Cab (1) $3,000 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
Sierra 2500/3500 Classic Series (excludes LBZ) (1) $4,000 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
Sierra 2500/3500 Classic Series (with LBZ) (1) $4,000 Cash Allowance OR 0% APR
Toyota
They don't seem to post their rebates on their website, so I used automotive.com for Toyota's "Featured Deals"
2007 Toyota Highlander - Max Rebate Cash: $1,250.00 - Finance Incentives: 48 months - 5.9%
2007 Toyota Tacoma - Max Rebate Cash: $500.00 - Finance Incentives: 48 months - 5.9%
2007 Toyota Matrix - Max Rebate Cash: $750.00 - Finance Incentives: 48 months - 4.9%
2007 Toyota Sequoia - Max Rebate Cash: $2,000.00 - Finance Incentives: 48 months - 3.9%
2007 Toyota Highlander Hybrid - Max Rebate Cash: $1,250.00 - Finance Incentives: 48 months - 5.9%
Dodge
Cash Allowance Bonus Cash
Caliber $500 or sweet interest rate*
Caravan/Cargo Van SWB $3000 or sweet interest rate*
Charger (excl. SRT8) $2000 or sweet interest rate* plus $500
Charger R/T $3500 or sweet interest rate* plus $500
Dakota $4000 or sweet interest rate* plus $1000
Durango $4500 or sweet interest rate* plus $1000
Grand Caravan/Cargo Van $4000 or sweet interest rate*
Magnum RT $3000 or sweet interest rate*
Magnum SE/SXT $1500 or sweet interest rate*
Nitro $750
Ram 1500 Mega Cab $5000 or sweet interest rate*
Ram 1500 Quad Cab $6000 or sweet interest rate* plus $1000
Ram 1500 Regular Cab $6000 or sweet interest rate* plus $1000
Ram 2500/3500 Mega Cab $3500 or sweet interest rate*
Ram 2500/3500 Regular/Quad Cab $3500 or sweet interest rate*
Ram Chassis
Good thing slashdot isn't a frickin' VC company...I can just imagine the comments:
No, instead, we have the run of the mill peanut gallery, with their particularly ignorant insights. Don't get me wrong, a strong dose of skepticism is a healthy thing to have, but do you really think that Sergey and his band of PhD.s are not quite as clever as you when it comes to spotting and growing ideas? I'm no fan of the Segway, but you have to admit, much of the pesky unwanted energy in our machines shows its face in the form of heat, and if you can find a *relatively* cheap way to convert it to some other form, well, that seems like a pretty handy little model...
But slashdot has all the answers...it's too small, too expensive, the batteries should be $free, it's failed x times before, it's a toy, it's not safe, Joe sixpack wants a hummer, ponzi!, l4m3, FUD, w00t...whereas a couple of commenters actually get it: this could work in x conditions, but not in y, for z reasons...at least there are still a couple people left around here that haven't grown up thinking a forum is a place to pile on, the snarkier, the better.
I'm not saying it will succeed just because some heavy duty investors are behind it; plenty of ideas that fit that bill haven't made it. The point is, it could, and maybe one day something will happen that might cause people to think about energy differently, and this model will be ahead of its time, or at least some lessons will have been learned. Like a HOWTO on overclocking your chip with a stirling engine that charges your iPod...
Instead of analysis, we have negative comments modded as insightful. I suppose it's true what The Onion says, it turns out that a majority of Americans are actually NOT entitled to have their own opinions...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Caught off guard?", you should read up on the hybrid that VW put together back in the 80s. (For the life of me I can't find the link on it.) One of the first ones ever made. It wasn't worth the extra expense of batteries, controllers. It was a diminishing return on fuel economy. The first $1000 (for the diesel engine) got you an extra 30 MPG. The next $2000 (for the hybrid) got you another 5 MPG. It just wasn't worth it.
The only benefit a Hybrid has to a diesel is in regenerative braking. Diesels are already extremely efficient at idle because they don't have to keep a air:fuel ratio. Hybrid vs Diesel is going to depend on duty cycle more than anything. If you're out on the highway or even just rural driving (which most of the US is) a diesel engine connected directly to the wheels is as efficient as you can get. You can't any better thanks to Mr. Thermodynamics. Any minor returns you may get in those situations will certainly be offset by 1000 lbs of batteries.
Now if you are in a situation where you are stop and go, then yes, hybrids do have an advantage. How many people live in a situation where they are stop and go for 100% of the vehicles lifetime where other means of transportation do not exist (subway, busses, etc).
The real winner of diesel-hybrid is gonig to be vehicles that do live their life in those situations. Garbage Trucks, Busses, etc. I've read of some applications double or trippling their fuel economy from a hybrid drive train. Garbage trucks dump a ton of fuel into the engine to move it 10 feet. Then they do it again. 100% Throttle, 100% Brake, Repeat. Even if it was a hydraulic hybrid where a diesel engine ran a pump at maximum effiency and then used accumulators to move the vehicle, you'd probably still see great gains.
Dam...hate to reply to myself, but one more solid link from Consumer Reports:
Link
The Top Gear test was performed on a G-Wiz, and has nothing to do with the Norwegian cars being discussed. The G-Wiz basically an electric scooter with a metal enclosure, has a top speed of 40MPH, and isn't intended for highway use.
According to the article, the Think cars have a top speed of 62MPH (which their agreement with Tesla hopes to raise to 85-90MPH. It will very much be a highway car, and therefore subject to American and European safety standards. Lumping the Think and the G-Wiz together as "these cars" is like lumping your pet rabbit and your sister-in-law together under "these animals". Did that analogy make sense? No? That's my point: it's nonsensical. If Chewbacca lives on Krykkit, you must acquit.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
What I'm facinated by is the battery aftermarket. In the US where the largest electricity market is, this could really shift the expense of batteries. At present we rely on the most expensive energy sources to meet peak demand. But getting a second life from the batteries prior to recycling looks like it could eliminate much of the need for the more expensive sources of energy. If you can treat batteries more gently in a power storage application than in a transportation application, the lifetime in the aftermarket could be substantially longer. So, if we are flowing storage capacity from the transportation sector to the power supply sector, we fairly quickly get to a day or two's worth of storage so long at the transportation sector adopts this technology as the majority mode. A couple days of storage means that both expensive power sources and some base load sources, especially those that have inconvinient square wave availability with month-long down times, could be eliminated. This is a very interesting concept could provide reduced costs for both the transportation and electric supply sectors.s -selling-solar.html
--
Save money with solar power: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
I've seen some of these, and quite frankly, it is hardly a car. They look like something you could tip over by giving a slight push towards the roof. I definitely wouldn't want to be in a collision and be sitting in one of them.
Maybe a better measure would be miles / $. Diesel and gasoline cost relatively the same but one gallon of diesel fuel will get me much farther than one gallon of gasoline. If someone came out with a fuel that had the density of 1000 gallons of diesel, but cost the same would you complain that it was an 'unfair comparison'?
Second, diesel engines create almost no CO or CO2 at idle. They burn lean almost all of the time. That's the "problem" with them actually. They burn so lean that they create NOx. Gasoline engines must constantly be at 14:1 air:fuel (or what ever it is.) Diesel engines can get by on 1000:1 or crank it down to 1:1 (not a real number) for accelerating. I always get into the CO2 argument with the Tree hugger SUV owners. Yes. 1 gallon of diesel may create more CO2 in a chemically balanced equation, but if that 1 gallon gets me 2-4 times farther than 1 gallon of gasoline, which is worse per mile?
Lastly. So even if my numbers are off. How is it that a vehicle that carries 6 people and has a gross weight of 8500 lbs can 'only' get 6 MPG better than a vehicle that could literally carry 10 of said vehicles across the country?
Yes, they do rule. I have a 2005 Mercedes E320 CDI. A 4000 pound vehicle that gets 42 mpg highway, and that's at 65mph average. That's real world numbers, and it's better than the rated 27/37 mpg that was on the sticker.
This is progress, but not a breakthrough. The problem with electric cars used to be that batteries didn't have enough energy density. With lithium-ion batteries, the energy density is almost good enough, but the battery pack costs too much. So they're trying to deal with that by leasing the batteries. Interest rates are unusually low right now by historical standards, so this might actually work. But it's more of a financing gimmick than a technical advance.
Dragsters are going electric. The energy storage required to go a quarter mile isn't that much; the problem is getting it out of the battery fast enough. There's now an electric motorcycle that can go 0-60mph in under one second. They hope to break the top-fuel record for the quarter mile within a year, once they get a new battery pack.
Hmm.. car payment + obility fee. I'd rather drive my 26MPG Honda Element. I'm waiting for the 62mpg
diesel honda accord to come out.
15g for an electric without battery. Hmm.. maybe without the battery, remove the 62mpg limit.
Greater demand for and larger scale production of these batteries must come before the prices can drop significantly.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
Most of them have to drive on highways to get where they need to be for work and for food.
While you're saying this is the weakness of electric vehicles, leaders in oil-rich countries are saying this is why they can continue to manipulate America.
Solutions:
- Smart Growth
- Light Rail
- Renewable Energy Development
Seth$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
It also takes more crude to make it.
Or possibly none at all.
I just wanted to point out that comparing MPG is kind of meaningless, since diesel crams more energy into a gallon.
True. Also, gasoline engines apparently can't run on 100% biofiels. So a 50mpg gasoline car is still pumping CO2 from the earth into the atmosphere, but getting 50mpg on biodiesel is nearly carbon-neutral.
Are these big changes related to increased highway deaths from people being crushed in those little death-cans?
Diesels use less fuel on idle than gas engines because they do not need to increase the fuel strength to compensate for small combustion volumes, but the fuel used in traffic is not negligible, probably around 0.5l/hour for a small engine.
The estimate of 120000 miles for the life of a Prius came from the people who did the entire dust to dust survey of vehicle costs. It has a lightweight gas engine, and lightweight is the enemy of durability in gas engines. If you make a solid, durable gas engine, you might just as well make it a Diesel instead because the cost will be little different. Of course you can make a gasoline engine that will do 250000 miles or more - Mercedes used to do it routinely and the engines on mid range Fords will do 200k plus - but the Prius engine isn't a Mercedes V8. And, assuming you are writing from the US, many American auto engines used to be vastly overspecified so that in reality they were running on very light load almost all the time. This is a recipe for long life with gasoline (but not Diesel), but results in excessive fuel consumption.
It is an interesting subject because it is all about tradeoffs, just like software design, and many of the tradeoffs are similar. Developing an understanding of the engine thermal cycles as an R&D engineer has proven, in my case, applicable to many other problems encountered in other fields. After all, in the end everything in the Universe runs on thermodynamics, so we might as well try to understand it.
Pining for the fjords
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I was hoping someone would mention this film - I just saw it for the first time last week and was reminded why I quit watching the news and reading Alternet.org - at every opportunity, the corporate interests that run our country are bending us over. *sigh* Pass the lube...
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
Oh. Thanks, Wikipedia!
You can burn hydrogen, alcohol, propane, natural gas, and probably just about anything else in a "gasoline" engine. Hydrogen, alcohol, and natural gas can all be "carbon neutral".
Diesel is still better for certain applications because the engine is more efficient - as long as weight and performance are not big concerns.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
If one more person complains about that "it's small" and mentions safety in collisions, I think I will scream.
NASCAR racers (and I am not even a NASCAR fan) run at the better part of 200 MPH with bodies not much thicker than tinfoil. They bounce off walls and other cars at full speed and get involved in horrific crashes with most of the time the drivers not even getting a scratch. Survivability in a crash has next to NOTHING to do with vehicle size and exterior materials. It all has to do with structural engineering.
If this thing is put together right, and I'd bet it is, I'd rather take my chances in it than an Excursion, in which just about the only things in your favor are size and a few crumple zones.
personally I bike everywhere now, but most people that I know who commute with a car fill the tank once or twice a week.
at current prices, even for a small car, that's $35-$40 a tank. generously, that's $140 a month for gas.
$100 monthly fee for a battery? sign me up! there's flexcar or rentals for long hauls.
twice in the last 6 years I've had commutes of between 40 and 60 miles, which was costing me upwards of $80 a week, and that was at lower prices. this is well within the range of one of these cars.
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
What Silicon compound could be used instead of Carbon?
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8046
I think the dust to dust, Hummer comparison folk were just a tad disingenuous.
with me buying a used VW Rabbit/Golf for $5K which gets crazy MPG?
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
1. No dealership network means no service network. 2. I'll bet that little thing has trouble passing US safety standards.
Is buying a Harley Davidson as your first motorcycle since you were 16 at age 49 a midlife crisis issue?
Phoenix has a better looking model with only a 10minute recharge.
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/
Assuming all he does is go to work (not the grocery store, nowhere on weekends.)
then his numbers imply he is getting 29 mpg, in real traffic... around 9l/100km.
That is pretty good. Either he is driving a very economical car, or his costs are B.S.
Since he is in the U.S. I would tend more towards B.S. (most people drive bigger
cars, and use them to go everywhere.) I suspect he spends a lot more than 70$/month on Gas.
Exactly. They are launching this first in Norway, and I think it will be a success there (I'd say "here", except I'm in China)
1) I know at least Oslo, and probably other cities, have reserved parking spaces for electric cars, with free charging
2) The highest speed limit in all of Norway is 110 km/h, just 10 km/h over this car's max speed
3) This car will be permitted to drive in collective lanes, lanes which otherwise only buses and taxis are allowed to drive in, so you can get past all the traffic
4) In Norway, petrol is expensive, but electricity is abundant and cheap
5) According to the site, you don't have to pay the annual road tax (currently equiv. to $500, to be raised next year)
6) According to the site, insurance is cheaper
7) According to the site, toll charges are cheaper
8) Needs to be serviced less
It's in other words a pretty safe bet that this car will be successful in Norway. The US, though, I'm not as certain about.
I'm driving an electric bike in Beijing. Cost me 1600 yuan (about $200), and gets me to school and back with a speed of about 30 km/h. Vroom vroom.
Lalala
In the following questions, assume for the moment that the difference in energy costs between this vehicle and an ICE vehicle are negligible.
Part A: Suppose the car cost 15,000. How much of a monthly mobility fee would you be willing to pay, if that fee included the battery lease and a free battery replacement?
Part 2: Suppose there was no mobility fee. How much would you pay for this car?
Part III: Suppose I gave you one of these cars for $0. The catch is that you have to pay the monthly "mobility fee". How high would the mobility fee have to be before you said "no thanks".
I bet if you answer these questions by gut, then look at the numbers objectively, it will be hard to justify them on purely economic grounds. The problem with the mobility fee is that it complicates the deal; it turns the deal into an ongoing relationship with the company, which you may or may not like. This is true of any car you buy of course, but nothing reminds you of it more than writing a check every month.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Besides the price? There are a lot of people that live in beach, mountain, or small communities (even within gated communities) that are using gold carts to get around town and do local errands. Although I guess it does have doors and windows which would be handy in the elements (although would you really want to drive one in the snow?).
Here in the US, local errands seems to be the only purpose of this car. I mean I don't see how the Think could be used for commuting here. Seriously I drive a BMW X3 and I still for my safety with the semi trucks, utility trucks, construction vehicles, and large Trucks/SUVs. Plus you can't use it on the highway. And finally, you it doesn't really go that far.
Unfortunately, I don't think this car will do well in the United States. American cities were just not planned and developed for this type of vehicle. To use it for just errands makes it too expensive an option.
Badges!?! We don't need no stinking badges!
Your all MORONS!!!
I think you meant "You're all MORONS!". "Your" is the possessive form of "you" (e.g. your grammar is horrible) whereas "you're" is a contraction of "you are". Finally, more than one exclamation point is unnecessary; the first one conveys your meaning quite clearly, especially when preceded by a word in all caps. Thank you for the entertainment, though.
It does seem batteries are a large barrier to all of this electric car business. Is there any other energy storage method that can work? Like pressurized gas (As some windfarms use)? All of you physics and chemical guys speak up?
The idea of people owning multiple cars, a city car for communing and a traditional car for other times, is very interesting. I own a mini-van because sometimes I need to put a bunch of stuff in it to move, but most of the time I just commute with it. The main problem with this is auto insurance. The insurance companies want to charge me for two cars with two drivers not as one car with an additional part time car. I think that the idea of owning an alternate commuter car will not work until the insurance industry changes their pricing policies.
RLH
For those who work the economic numbers, a small petrol or diesel car is cheaper.
Also, from TFA, about Kamen:
First of all, I didn't realize that Dean Kamen invented the multi-fuel Stirling engine. I've seen these around for many years. But the biggest problem I can see with this plan is the reaction of both the petroleum industry and the taxing authorities to any sort of technology that will enable customers to bypass their control. Bio-diesel from restaurant waste was a great idea until the first idiot went on TV and revealed it to the world. Now, bio-diesel costs more that gasoline and the fuel distributors (divisions of the major oil companies) have practically cornered the market for collecting used cooking oil. Meanwhile, the taxing authorities will have to figure out how to collect their cut if they can't get it at the pump anymore.Have gnu, will travel.
They'll have to save most of the money for bribes in the crash test. I own a 200 mph "car" myself, which you can see at http://www.coultersmithing.com/kart.html I converted a kart you can get at Northern Hydraulics to fit adult humans and to be usable in the rain. Anybody half co-ordinated can do this. The kart has a roll cage and a frame (all chrome moly) and has passed an accidental full rollover test at top speed of about 50 mph. It drives like a little porsche and is WAY too much fun. These could be sold for the price of an ATV or less, making them disposable. BUT -- and this is the game I'm having fun with now -- just try to get plates on it. At the milage it gets, no way it'd fail a pollution test, and it's been crash tested by me, but not by the guys you have to pay a million bucks a shot to. I can't afford that, so I'm arrainging to be arrested on TV so I can get some politicos to come on and explain about those laws that make it impossible to actually start competing with the big guys. Why can't I have my 200mpg car? It's not a technnical problem, it's a legal one.
3.45$ / gallon = 0.66 EUR / Liter (as of this writing). Thats LESS THAN 50% of what I pay here in Germany for Gas (~ 1,45 EUR / liter). so your 70$ / Month would easily double here, and then you have your 100-200$ mobility fee ( -- Car-Tax (normally several hundret bucks per year here), + ~10$ for energy if you want to go a few hundret miles per month (they claim the energy costs are 1-2cent / mile). So it may be nothing for the american market, but for Europe...
It's funny, every time details about some "cutting edge" idea or business model surface, this forum (which used to be populated with physicists, engineers, and geeks of all stripes) piles on with their own particular angle on why it won't work.
Far be it from me to stick a pin in your nostalgia, but slashdot has never been any different, really. And in this case, we're right, this product has "going nowhere" written all over it.
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
You reach a point of diminishing returns with larger cars. Moving heavier cars means adding more batteries which also increases the weight which in turn requires more battery power. The weight starts to drag you down and it gets harder and harder to increase your range. I'm not saying you can't do a standard sized sedan but the EVs with the highest range are going to be the small 2-seaters that weigh next to nothing or small trucks with heavy suspensions loaded up with batteries. That's exactly what we've gotten with things like the EV1 or the Ranger EV. Lithium will help but not completely solve this problem.
Here in Canada Smart Cars sell well, and are all over the place. In the last couple of years people have been importing grey-market Japanese Kei cars in sufficient numbers to make The Authorities nervous enough to mount a desperate FUD campaign on the subject.
They never actually say so, but their target is right-hand drive cars in a country that also drives on the right. I took a Mitsubishi Delica for a test drive, liked it, and bought one (due off the boat later in August). The driving position is so high, and the visibility is so good, that it makes very little difference where the steering wheel is. Though it's hardly a little vehicle...
...laura
TFA talks about Sterling engines as a partial power source. They work on heat differences. I was thinking about that, and it occurred to me that you should be able to get a significant heat difference in a moving vehicle on a sunny day by (a) putting the hot end of the SE in a glass-enclosed bubble on top of the car and (b) putting the cold end of the SE on a heat sink that is a set of fins inside a duct that transits the car from front to back, using front to back air flow to carry heat away. The output of the SE would feed the car's electrical storage system, either batteries or ultracaps, which I expect will replace batteries before very long.
It would work best, by far, in a moving vehicle, and only in the daylight, but that covers a large fraction of when people travel.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
While I appreciate criticism, some here need to temper their criticism with a little dose of reality.
1. *NO* solution will not fit all needs. I don't think this car is attempting to solve *everyone's* transportation needs. This may not be the solution for my co-workers who drive 70 miles one way to work, but it would be great for me who drives 16 miles each way. And I believe there are many more people like me than most are giving credence.
2. I don't see the need for your employer to set up charging stations. This is a very small vehicle. So small, I would guess you could set up a small stand to hold the solar cells and/or windmill to charge it in the same parking spot where you leave the car. I'd also add solar panels to the roof and/or hood, but that might reduce the appeal for some. Even better if your employer decides to set up charing stations, but I don't see it as a requirement.
3. It is a small car. This car can be great for commuting, but not so great for family trips. I try to ride my motorcycle to work when I just need to get me and perhaps my briefcase to work. This car would let me do a similar thing even in our cold Minnesota winters. I'm sad to say that my wife and I do have an SUV which we only use when we need it (like family vacations). But, I'd much prefer to rent this the few times we need it over the owning we do now. I am a *real* example of a multi-car solution to a family transportation problem. (An unideal solution, I admit).
4. This car is FUN! Some people *will* buy it because they like pocket rockets like this. Sounds good to me. Probably not as fast as my motorcycle, but fun anyway.
Here in the United States, almost nobody wants a tiny underpowered car, even knowing its fuel-efficiency and parking advantages.
That's because there are other factors most people are more concerned about: power, safety, and carrying capacity.
POWER: If your car is underpowered, especially in a hilly area, you feel endangered, because most cars on the road are bigger and more powerful, and the drivers of those cars tend to tailgate (to try to "push" you into going faster) or swerve around you and cut you off (to get around you).
SAFETY: Most people don't feel safe in small cars, because most cars on the road are big cars. I don't care how safe you make a Smart Car -- when it collides head-on with a Hummer or an Escalade, it's going to be on the losing end of the stick. Also, lack of power is a safety issue because "the best defense is a strong offense". And having a tiny car that may be difficult for drivers of bigger, taller vehicles to see is also a safety issue.
CAPACITY: If you can spend $20000 and get a 2-seater car with no trunk, or spend $25000 and get a car that can seat four and has a big trunk, it just makes financial sense to buy the larger car. And most people here in the states cannot afford an "extra" car just for people-commuting.
So tiny underpowered cars will only ever work in the US if:
- the vast majority of other vehicles on the road are also tiny underpowered cars (Catch-22)
- they get so cheap (say, $8000 or less) that people can afford to buy them as "extra" cars for commuting
- they start coming with modular "add-ons" to add more seating or carrying capacity when you need it
(sorta like a pull-behind trailer, but more convenient to own and operate and connect/disconnect)
- gas prices shoot up to $10/gallon
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
My drive home -- about 32 miles -- fluctuates wildly between a dead stop and 50-55 mph. If I am lucky enough to hit a relatively open freeway, I may hit 70-75 mph, but that is by far the minority of the trip. Acceleration is crucial. I know electric vehicles have plenty of acceleration when required, but just how much does this reduce the operating radius?
For an electric car -- or fuel cell, or anything else -- to be practical for me, these are the requirements:
* 0 to 60 mph in 11 seconds, max. This would put it on a par with most economy cars in decent condition.
* A range of 100 miles per charge or refueling, minimum, regardless of traffic conditions. Not 100 miles on a good day, but 100 miles, every day, including those days it takes 3 hours to go 3 miles. OR, the ability to recharge in 3 to 5 minutes, and half that range, perhaps by swappable fuel cells or batteries.
* A top speed of 70-75 mph, minimum. 80 would be better, but 70-75 would suffice. The catch is that it has to be able to do this up moderate hills, not just level surfaces. It will not do to drop to 50 mph every time I have to go uphill. This means that the car only has to be designed to handle 75, but the powertrain probably has to be capable of considerably more to account for uphill slogs.
* Air conditioning. This is a considerable power draw, and it has to be designed for, not just bolted on.
That is what it takes to get the average L.A. commuter to and from work every day, with a trip to the store on the way home. A car that does less will find itself roundly ignored.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
Makes sense it comes from Europe, they are so far ahead of the USA in so many ways. It will be great when we can charge these batteries or fuel cells with electricity generated from Emissionless GEOTHERMAL Energy plants. read more about this here: http://teaminfinity.com/robo_geotherm_tc
The Future is already here, just unevenly distributed... THE ROBOTIC WAGELESS ECONOMY NOW! http://RoboEco.com/slash
The "Dust to dust" study of various cars done a few years back pointed out - and they were right - that if you compared a Hummer used by a tradesman and hence worked for its entire useful life of perhaps 300000 miles, to the cost of operating a succession of Priuses for 300000 miles, the total energy cost of the Hummer was less. That isn't stupid. The Hummer is made almost entirely of cheap steel which will be nearly 100% recycled. The Prius uses expensive (energetically speaking) aluminum and nickel, which also have high clearup costs. Over 300000 miles it will need a number of those batteries and perhaps an entire replacement car or two. The excess costs of manufacture, extraction and disposal actually outweigh the operating fuel cost savings. In reality most Hummers are being bought by urbanites and will therefore never achieve the mileage, but then I suspect the same goes for many Prius.
The study was in some ways counter-intuitive but its conclusions seemed to me to be valid. They were, basically, that the excess costs of going electric currently outweigh the benefits. It's better to make simple, reliable vehicles out of mostly steel and then run them till they wear out. Works for trains, works for ships, works for trucks, why not cars?
Pining for the fjords
Diesel engines are a lot more efficient than gasoline otto cycle engines. Their efficiency advantage is greatest at idle and is smallest at full throttle. Most passenger vehicle usage is nowhere near full throttle, so a diesel engine can enjoy a huge advantage over an otto cycle engine. In stop and go traffic the advantage can easily be several hundred percent.
To state it more simply, in a typical commute, which is largely low throttle and idle, a diesel engine will get 2-4 times the fuel of a similar power gasoline engine. Only 10-15% of this massive difference is due to the greater energy density of diesel fuel.
They do make diesel race cars, and they are competitive with gasoline engines. Here is Audi's most recent one, which placed 1st at Sebring. In a race with significant portions of the track at partial throttle a diesel engine will vastly outperform a gasoline engine. It would be an unfair race.
Man, you really need that seminar!
diesel race cars are a bit rare but they do exist and do very well
0 .stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/482236
I believe this series is changing its rules to handicap diesel cars.
Most of this has been achieved because they can manufacture lightweight diesel engines that can withstand the higher ignition pressure wrt petrol cars. This means the engine weighs about the same as a petrol engine but has more torque and greater engery density for its fuel (less fuel less weight)
matfud
Oh, that's OK then. I was worried someone was sitting in their car in the summer sun and had forgotten to wind their windows down.
Blank until
It depends on the article. If the article makes grand claims, it deserves a nitpick or two. Grand claims require grand evidence.
In this submission it was questioned whether this would "Usher in Big Changes" in the automotive world. The veracity of that is entirely up for discussion and if you've evert tried to get funding for company, you'd want to post the idea here. That way you'll know all the possible failure modes.
Will this make a big change in the automotive world? No. It is not cost effective nor space effective for most people.
For single persons having two cars that carry the same amount of people is wasteful, and takes up more parking spaces in their apartment complexes - spaces they may not have available. Most families of >2 members already have two vehicles, so this would make a third one. Again most families have at most a two-car garage (and many of those are actually wide opening single-car garages). Thus the space issue hits home, no pun intended, for them.
Further, the cost of this car versus their current car makes it cost more to buy and use than to continue driving their existing car, for most people that it is alleged would be the target.
All that boils down to who the real market, targeted or not, is. People who only need this car and are OK with it's limitations (all cars have them). That market is demonstrably small. I
d even suggest that teenage drivers make the most logical target market. These markets are a small, small measure of the overall market. From this standpoint the answer to "big changes" is a flat "no".
On the standpoint of whether the method of selling will usher big changes, again, no. The reasons are different here. The existing model consists of manufacturers selling their product to dealers, who then sell it again. The automaker is already selling direct in this model. Selling directly to the customer would represent a breach of contract with their dealers. It would also put them in competition with their largest block of customers. So no, that won't change either.
It isn't a matter of opinion as to whether or not the questions asked represent a likely future, it is an analysis. Just as with the hype of the Segway. Does the Segway work as a means of transportation? Yes, it is functional. Is it cool? arguably, yes. Did it represent a fundamental shift of how we the people would get around? No. Did it cause a "rethinking" of how we get around? No.
See, that is the problem. Every "new idea" is touted as a funadmental shift, a paradigm change, a "world changing idea", or some such notion. So of course, we the thinkers, analyze that. And due to the nature of the frequency of truly world changing ideas, more often than not the answer is "no it is not a world changing idea". An idea can be a good one without being a world changing one.
Then again, if you believe that the majority of people are not entitled to their opinions, you probably believe they are entitled to your opinion.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
Yes, in fact there is.
Hybrids do so well with gasoline engines, because they can workaround the inefficiencies of gas ICEs. With diesels, there's very little benefits to be had.
With gasoline engines, shutting it off for 30 seconds and starting it again is a benefit. Diesels, however, are much more fuel thrift, and can idle down to almost nothing, a few drops of fuel, so you gain almost nothing. Diesel engines are also much harder to start up again than gasoline engines, so the small benefit you got from shutting it off is going to be spent in energy starting it again.
With gasoline engines, it's extremely inefficient to accelerate from a stop, diesel engines are much better.
With diesels engines, you could still get some benefits from regenerative braking, but it's difficult to see where you'd spend that energy again, since shutting off the engine for a few moments is not likely to ever be economic. Perhaps diesels would be a good candidate for regenerative braking using hydraulic storage.
Removing one or two cylinders and using the electric motor to make up the power different, as is common in hybrids, isn't likely to help either, since diesels can adjust their displacement as much as necessary, so having more cyl. isn't much of a fuel economy hit.
So, by all means, I'd like to hear someone explain what diesels are going to gain from being hybridized, because I can only see tiny improvements, and great expense to get them.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
apparently they were just pining for the fjords.
"Diesel is going to make a bigger impact that hybrids in the coming years."
The lack of small diesel trucks in the US is a shame. Too bad VW doesn't revive their diesel pickup with their current TDI engines.
US truck makers target the high-end customer with their diesels and ignore the market for a touch, economical, macho-styled smaller truck. They don't want to cut into their big-truck sales.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
overpriced and half as useful as a real car. remember when the big thing was those book sized tablets? no keyboard just a pen and a screen. they wanted well over a t-bill for them, you could get a laptop for about the same or less and have a real computer. the same go's for this car, a neat Idea but way over the top pricing, I guess if you had money to burn and driving something like this made you feel all warm and fuzzy inside because you felt you were doing the right thing, go for it. but, in my opinion, the people who need a car like this are the last ones who could afford them, people with low incomes,(the 30k and less income range) like single mothers or people starting out in life and need transportation to and from work and other mundane things,people who cannot generally afford to think about traveling out of town for fun or otherwise. If you're income is in the 50k or more range buying somthing like this would be more for a novelty rather then some important/urgent need to save money. My mother for example, she is on a fixed income, I am going to have her sell her 1997 Camry and get a pre-owned Echo, perfect vehicle for a low or fixed income person/family, uses very little fuel has alot of room for 4 and is completely reliable for about 3500.00 to 6000.00. compare this with a 2 seat 15k plus 200.00 a month electric car that gets 114 miles out of a charge. sorry, this is a car for pipe smoking professers and and knee-jerk liberals that lament their neighbors use of an SUV (but not their own) and get all emotional and righteously indignant over the movie The day after tomorrow.
4 drum brakes. Double plus minus breaking.
Only cars ever banned from the demolition derby.
You need to get an armored car for your spawn, make sure it has a turret on the top.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
http://en.think.no/
Before Dell began business, most computers were sold via a middle man. Despite online sales only just beginning, Dell insisted on doing everything online or via phone order. They had good systems, that could relatively easily be modified (only slightly) and delivered to your door. Others getting into online retailing tended to have fixed systems, or sell the parts for self assembly. Plus Dell managed to snavel a few major corporate deals.
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
If you buy a Golf TDI instead of a gas-powered Golf, you will save about 25% on your CO2 emissions. The amount of emissions at idle aren't all that important because not much fuel is being burnt at idle, even in a gasoline engine. The diesel Golf won't drive as nicely as the gasoline Golf, but that's a small price to pay for 600 miles of range! :)
Read up on that Audi at Sebring - the rules of the race were altered significantly to favor the diesels... Sebring is more about selling cars than comparing engine types. The power output per weight of a diesel is lower than a gasoline engine, and so performance will suffer. Diesels are not really suitable replacements for engines in sports cars, though that is fine by me since I've never had one of those. I'd have loved a clean diesel in either my old Blazer or my Saturn (which already got almost 40MPG).
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Yeah, they are changing the rules to handicap diesel cars because last year they changed the rules to give them an advantage :)
They can use the same engine-lightening technology on the gasoline-powered cars, since they don't have to withstand as much pressure as the diesels. A gas engine will always be lighter than a diesel.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Think of hybrid in a larger sense. Willums in the article is stated to have previously made money through a solar energy company. Think about using solar for energy (i.e. solar panels on hood and/or trunk), the electrical plug idea doesn't work good for most renters and not many companies have parking spots with electric plugs in North America.
A solar panel for energy would energize a car with a dead hybrid battery (during daylight hours) that is alongside the road and for most people charge it while they are at work or shopping. It is good to clean snow off the hood of your car, so most people would have a change of getting a charge during the cold weather driving. Diesel would make a good backup for long trips or when the battery is running low.
Only if you don't actually want to drive it any distance... It'll take a month to charge the batteries one time.
People talk about hybrids like they're magic. Weight makes for worse gas mileage, and hybrids are heavy. The fact that they can be made to bridge the inefficiencies of gasoline ICE is the only reason they are worth it at all (and still not by much). No such luck with diesels.
If you want an electric car, get electric car, but don't add a heavy powertrain to it. A hybrid diesel is simply going to be a waste of money, as both electric and conventional will lose out.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Mockery of the gifted is the solace of the mediocre.
So, while you are correct in that aluminium can be recycled, a widespread conversion would involve making an awful lot of it.
There is a subsidiary issue, unfortunately. It is very easy to convert steel from one alloy to another, e.g. recycled mild steel can be used as the basis for inox, but a small quantity of inox in a steel melt will not harm the resulting alloy. However, there are many aluminium alloys which vary in content for specific purposes (copper in aircraft alloys, magnesium in many car parts.) Recycling of aluminium requires a lot of metallurgical intervention to get the desired resulting alloy. Other than the pure Al used in cans, there is currently no recycling scheme to distinguish alloys. With steel, this is not really an issue. Aluminium alloys can contain copper, magnesium, zinc etc., and contamination of an alloy with the wrong metal will affect the ability to heat treat it, corrosion resistance etc. So while it is possible to, say, recycle cans into auto wheels or aircraft, it is not possible to recycle auto wheels into cans. Recycling aluminium is NOT trivial.
Believe me, I have sat in on very heated exchanges between aluminium and steel metallurgists - two of them once came close to blows in a meeting with Government representatives present - on this precise issue.
Pining for the fjords
Comment removed based on user account deletion
>Most Americans I know have at least two (if not more!) vehicles...
That, my friend, is what we like to call "anecdotal evidence".
Here's another:
Most Americans I know have 1, or no cars. That is, (individual americans) > (individual motor vehicles).
Having said that, I'll go on to say (families) <= (motor vehicles). Which is still misleading.
Kewet Buddy is a small electric car built here in Oslo, Norway. They do up to 80km/h and have a range of 80 km. I rented one this summer and they are very fun to drive, especially in town. The few kilometers of highway to work is a bit less fun, but no problem as I could drive in the bus-lane in both directions I had free charging at work so getting it charged was no problem.
Tires, (brakes perhaps, depends on braking mechanism), wheel bearings, etc. will still be a part of maintenance, and will still need to be replaced, just like a gasoline vehicle, but that's at least at 40K intervals.
Wait, speaking of that, let me see if this topic will start to talk about fuel taxes being evaded...
And they don't even give us the complimentary reach-around... bastards.
Electric cars aren't all that great. People claim that they take off well and for gas cars you have to allow rev time. Apparently they haven't heard of dumping the clutch. The batteries weigh a lot more than gas. And engines make way better golf carts than motors. Nothin' like a 493cc snowmobile engine in a golf cart. P.S. don't run it open piped.