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Is the Porsche Carrera GT Too Dangerous?
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "CNN reports that the 600 horsepower Porsche Carrera GT is notoriously difficult to handle, even for professional drivers. Known as the car actor Paul Walker was riding in when he died, there is no suggestion anyone was to blame for Walker's crash but Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson says drivers are on a 'knife edge' handling the car and described it as 'brutal and savage". 'It is a phenomena — mind blowingly good. Make a mistake — it bites your head off.' Todd Trimble, an exotic car mechanic in Las Vegas, says the Carrera GT is a 'very hard car to drive.' It's (a) pure racer's car. You really need to know what you're doing when you drive them. And a lot of people are learning the hard way.' The sports car has a top speed of 208 mph, a very high-revving V10 engine and more than 600 horsepower says Eddie Alterman, editor-and-chief of Car and Driver magazine. 'This was not a car for novices,' says Alterman. Having the engine in the middle of the car means it's more agile and turns more quickly than a car with the engine in the front or in the rear so it is able to change direction 'very quickly, very much like a race car,' adds Alterman. The Carrera GT is also unusual because it has no electronic stability control which means that it's unforgiving with mistakes. 'Stability control is really good at correcting slides, keeping the car from getting out of shape,' says race car driver Randy Pobst. Alterman concludes that learning to drive a car like a Carrera GT can be extremely tricky. 'Every car is sort of different. And this one, especially since it had such a hair-trigger throttle, because it changed directions so quickly, there is a lot to learn.'"
How safe is the car when you follow all driving laws like speed limits especially through turns?
Why this kinda of attitude? It's obvious the car was speeding and didn't respect the limit in that specific street, price paid. There aren't doubles in real life like in movies...
"...there is no suggestion anyone was to blame for Walker's crash..." unless you follow that link which says that the police suspect that speed was involved. No question that anyone not in the car was to blame is a different sentence indeed. Looking at the pictures of the scene its hard to imagine that they were driving anywhere close to the 45mph speed limit.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
But then again, he was a cop with a lot of driving experience.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Any car is dangerous if you drive fast and make a mistake.
... even a tricycle can become deadly.
Stop blaming the car.
The problem is the driver.
That Porsche may have 600 hp, but in the hand of an excellent driver, it would be still a very safe car.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
don't listen to him ... you WILL regret it.
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
However, it is a car designed to allow a driver to use its "flaws" to wring the absolute maximum of performance out of it.
Needless to say, this requires a driver that learns how to drive, and not the driver's ed that most get in high school.
FWIW I learned to drive in a Porsche (356c coupe) and when Dad bought a "replacement" in '88 (a '84 Carrera 3.2 factory turbo look) he immediately took a driver's course at the Sebring race track. Even the 356 with its whopping 75 horsepower is a performance car, and the rear engine design will let it get away from you if you are careless and drive it like it is a Buick.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
how much is there is to say?
Live by the YOLO, die by the YOLO.
Cars don't kill people. Stupid people driving cars kill people.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
People driving too fast kill people.
You know, some of us remember driving cars that didn't have airbags, antilock brakes, traction control, rear view cameras, auto felch, auto transmission, etc. Neither then nor now were those cars "too dangerous".
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Every car behaves differently once it's over the edge.
Porches are notorious for "biting your head off" when you make a mistakes (of course not all of them). But the road is not the place to pull this stunts and if you want an "easy" handling car you should do your homework first.
Besides the Carrera GT is an iconic car and should be kept on a pedestal and not driven on the edge on the roads. Especially if you don't have the skills and the focus required to drive above the edge.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
I doubt they lost control at 45mph. 145mph, probably... on a city street.... pretty much any car is dangerous in that situation.
Speeding in most cases isn't dangerous, but reckless driving is, and three times or more than the speed limit is certainly reckless.
The OS analogy for Prius, Dodge RAM, Lexus, Cadillac and Subaru are left as an exercise to the reader.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Wait, we've been told repeatedly by car rights types that "speed doesn't kill". Apparently crashing into a bunch of trees because you were going too fast actually does kill. Who'dve thunkit?
Isn't that what all "true" sports cars should be like. There's a quote from Jeremy in regards to the Ferrari F430 Scuderia,
"It's not like Ferrari aftershave...this is what a Ferrari should be like. [Thick Italian accent] "You make mistake, I kill.""
Porsche has ALWAYS made cars that will bite VERY hard and VERY fast if provoked. They have also made cars that are easy to drive with ABS and stability control and AWD for decades now. You pay your money, make your choice, and take your chances. Back when the 930 was new in the late 70s there were always stories of them being wrecked on the way home from the dealership and I can see how. The power came on it that car with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. You prod the throttle in a turn and the rear tires break loose, which scares you into yanking your foot off the gas. At that point you learn all about trailing throttle oversteer and go off the road backwards. The Carrera is a bit more sophisticated than that, but I am sure 600 HP can get you in trouble in a hurry. The old mid-engined Porsche I drove for years was a ton of fun and you could learn to steer with your feet as well as your hands and go around corners pretty much sideways. That took a ton of practice to perfect or you could jab the gas and brakes and go off the road.
Totaled GTs here: http://www.wreckedexotics.com/carreragt/
Was the car too fast, or too furious?
Too soon?
Fast and Furious actor gets killed in a car accident... Sort of like if Arnold Schwarzenegger got crushed by an industrial robot.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
This isn't a warning. This is an advertisement for people who fancy themselves awesome drivers. All the salesperson needs to say is, "You know, this is a very dangerous car. Paul Walker couldn't handle this car. You look like you could." Sale!
This car is like C. If you pull the trigger while aiming at your limb you might not like the results.
...we have a fair number of accidents involving wealthy men in airplanes that exceed their training and skill level, which they bought on the assumption that "If I can buy it, I can fly it." This would seem to be similar.
I've always wondered if stability control does more harm than good. It can encourage people who know better to push cars harder in the belief that the electronics will save them from trouble. Meanwhile, drivers who grow up with it are unlikely to learn basic driving dynamics (since once again, the stability control takes care of it).
We already recently had a discussion about this in aviation, where automation is usurping basic piloting skills, resulting in situations like the Air France 447 crash. In that situation, we had a panicking pilot desperately pulling back on the stick, which is the worst thing a pilot can do in a stall.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
O.K., you are going to need to help me out with my ignorance. I get the physics of why mid-mounted engines are better, but what is the logic in not having stability control? If I understand it correctly (which I may not) stability control stops you from doing stupid things like skidding. And while skidding is fun there are better and faster ways of handing a turn.
I can see why this might be banned for racing. Racing is supposed to test the driver’s skill and when the computer has better skill then the drive it is less of a test. But on a street legal car?
I haven't yet read the article, but offhand it seems that the problem isn't so much with the car itself as it is the person driving it. The problem, to me, seems to stem from people with more money than driving skill. You wouldn't go out and buy a McLaren F1 if you can't drive a Camaro, for instance. This isn't a great analogy, but hopefully you understand my meaning. Porsche seems to have become associated more with status than with performance and racing these days. A great deal of the blame lies with Porsche themselves for taking this idea and running with it (Porsche SUV anybody?).
...so someone doesn't accidentally buy a $335,000 600hp sports car without realizing IT MIGHT BE DANGEROUS.
In other news: the government has banned running with scissors.
-Styopa
And blaming the driver. A little background. While not professional drivers Walker and the driver were on a race team together and did plenty of circuit races. The guy driving has a GT3 so is more than familiar with the class of cars in question. Each had many more hours logged racing than any pilot would have flying before being able to get his flight license. It's easy to blame the driver, and it could rightly end up that way. However, the question of whether the car malfunctioned or should not be considered street legal should also be asked. Point being, if you believe these guys had no business driving this car then nobody shy of an F1 driver should be able to by them, hence they are too dangerous to sell to the general public.
And they would have gotten out alive, or at least not burned to a crisp. Tesla's don't burn their occupants in a massive fireball when they hit a street sign (and a tree, and a light pole).
And 600HP is nothing. I've got a good friend from college who gets almost 1200HP in his GTR (1192 WHP / 1402 crank, actually). I don't see him wrapping it around vertical objects.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
This is all an overreaction. Everyone knows that a single isolated incident of a car bursting into flames after some kind of impact is no big deal. We shouldn't be concerned until at least three reports surface in the news. At which point it instantly becomes SERIOUS BUSINESS and must be investigated!
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Can't we just ban this thing already? Nobody should own it...I've also heard it can be used to transport untraceable/undetectable firearms, it has a built in bitcoin wallet, and a drug smuggling compartment right next to the NOS or whatever they are always using in the movie. In other words, this thing isn't safe for anyone.
Yes indeed it is. That's why I always use a 5 point seatbelt when I strap myself in the sadle of my donkey. My donkey might not be the latest model but it has half a horse power and it's light and nippy, handles like sportsass in corners albeit somewhat unforgiving - similar to the porsche.
These cars serve a purpose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
An internal system operation returned the error "The operation completed successfully.".
If I had $450,000 to drop on a supper car ...
I don't care if that supper happens to be a car or a steak, if it cost $450,000 I'd be crazy to fall for it.
Yes, the Carrera GT is a car for race car drivers, and the driver of the car was, a RACE CAR DRIVER, not some rank amateur rich guy.
Let's not forget that part.
Sadly, this one looks like driver error. Roger Rodas, the driver, has competed in many events.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/entertainment/2013/12/02/paul-walker-crash-who-was-driver-friend-roger-rodas/
Were they wearing seat belts? Not mentioned in the articles I've seen.
I know I'm probably going to get flamed and/or modded down for this, but people injured in Carrera GT crashes should seriously consider consulting a lawyer and suing Porsche over this.
Hear me out. First of all, IANAL, but based on some cursory research on product liability, a product is considered to have a design defect if "the foreseeable risks of harm posed by the product could have been reduced or avoided by the adoption of a reasonable alternative design, and failure to use the alternative design renders the product not reasonably safe." How does that not apply here? The Carrera GT is considered by the professional drivers cited in the OP to be considerably less safe than other sports cars. And an alternative design is clearly reasonable, given the number of other high-performance sports car designs out there, including some of Porsche's own.
Probably the most sympathetic plaintiff would be someone injured by another driver's Carrera GT, in an accident where the plaintiff was clearly not at fault. In that case, Porsche can't claim that the victim assumed risk by choosing the GT.
Gasoline or Cocaine? Both are addicting, give you a massive adrenaline boost, and fuck you up if you don't respect them. Maybe it's time to make cars with more than 200hp illegal. Think of the live's that will be saved.
If you gave me a choice between a printer and a giraffe with explosive diarrhoea, i'll get my ladder and my raincoat
After riding to work daily on a racing motorcycle for years, I don't think it's too dangerous.
But the driver has to respect it. You have to understand it will kill you and/or someone else if you make a mistake, it's like handling a weapon.
I find it hard to describe how much I enjoy driving something with a high power to weight ratio, with no traction control and (in the case of my motorcycle) no ABS. I even deliberately choose tires with less grip to make it more fun.
I have crashed, several times. One moment you're slowing down for an intersection on a wet road, then there's a "chirp" and you're sliding down the road. One moment you're accelerating out of a corner, the next you're instinctively applying massive opposite lock as the back wheel spins out. I've been injured pretty bad once too.
But it's totally worth it, and with experience and care perfectly safe.
The modern trend of running away from responsability.
Are they sure it wasn't the wind? Or bad feng shui?
This is what comes to mind (comment subject) when CNN report that crap. CNN talks only about the car like that was the problem...seriously ? Anything in the hands of a human can become dangerous...even a damn spoon. Spoon "could" kill someone :). Seriously though, take a car, take a guy who lacked a moment of responsibility and you have a dangerous cocktail right there...same applies for everything and anything else. It's not too complex to grasp. Stop bashing on the cars...that wasn't the problem...the driver was
As someone that's driven 1,000+ HP cars, worked over a decade around high performance cars ... yes.
There are some cars that have a reputation of trying to kill you, but the Carrera GT is on the far side of that spectrum. Clutch engagement range compared to a light switch and no ground clearance makes this car difficult to drive on the street.
This isn't a 911, or anything remotely streetable. Many crazy high performance cars come with very advanced stability controls and AWD for a reason.
FORD:
I was passed by one of these mothers once out near the Axel Nebula. I was going flat out and this thing just strolled past me, star drive hardly ticking over, just incredible!
ZAPHOD:
Too much.
FORD:
Ten seconds later it smashed straight into the third moon of Jaglan Beta.
ZAPHOD:
Hey right?
FORD:
Yeah! But a great looking ship though. Looks like a fish, moves like a fish, steers like a cow.
So for five years (Clarkson's review was 2008, now 2013) this cars has been driven by all manner of people.
But when a celebrity dies in one, all of a sudden it is an international incident and the car must be at fault?
Please.
A gun in the hands of an unsafe gun owner is dangerous A car no matter what car in the hands of an unsafe driver is dangerous There are tons of high performance cars on the market driven safely everyday Guns don't kill people, people kill people Cars don't kill people, people kill people.
Don't forget, we're dealing with wholesale ignorance on the part of the media.
Having recalled stories from back when the Carrera GT was introduced there weren't many reports that the car was particularly dangerous. This is a track-oriented high end sports car. Most cars in that performance category are challenging to drive near the limits. I do have to admit a caveat; most in the automotive press gush over every new model that comes along, saving criticisms for when the car is well past it's prime. But the fact remains that there are a multitude of performance cars out there that are notorious for being difficult to drive.
Just because a car handles well doesn't mean it does the driving for you. Unfortunately, this is where the vast majority of people display massive ignorance, because they do believe that a car will save you from mistakes and incompetence. And they're convinced that the better it performs the better it will do the job.
The two guys in that Carrera GT were supposed to be more competent than most given that they have race cars. But given that they weren't career racers doesn't mean they were actually competitive, let alone any good at it. There are gentleman races all over the country where rich men bring high priced toys to the track and many show an embarrassing lack of skill.
But let's assume these guys were decent. That still doesn't change the fact that they were on an unpredictable public road, engaged in a dangerous activity. These guys crash all the time at tracks, even when they're good; they aren't pushing hard enough to win if they aren't risking a crash. So take that mentality to the open road and problems ensue. There's a reason why car insurance rates are higher for race car drivers.
All this doesn't consider the possibility that the Carrera GT might have been modified by Paul Walker's shop. I don't think that's particularly relevant, because the stock car was fast enough. But if it were the car would likely have been even more difficult to control.
Unfortunately, we've got all this ridiculous analysis when the reality is actually quite simple. A couple of guys went out for a joyride, wrecked and died. It's no different than when some kid does the same in a Honda Civic.
Alterman concludes that learning to drive a car like a Carrera GT can be extremely tricky. ... learning to drive a car like a Carrera GT fast can be extremely tricky.
Don't drive too fast and you wont have a problem.
Known as the car actor Paul Walker was riding in when he died, there is no suggestion anyone else other than the driver of the vehicle was to blame for Walker's crash
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Phenomenon is singular
poor rich bastards? we probably need a new law for this one. maybe even two or three conflicting laws?
Driven under normal conditions, other than the extremely touchy clutch at launch, there's nothing difficult or dangerous about it. The vehicle belongs to my uncle, and in the proper settings is a blast to drive. But, you have to know that when someone hands you the keys to 600hp, and more torque than anyone rationally needs, you have to respect it. My daily drive is a 470hp Charger SRT8, but even with that, I was amazed what a kick in the pants the Porsche is.
Just another day in Paradise
Here again, in typical Democrat style, asking if we should ban something (could be anything, really, for them) in the aftermath of an event.
They would literally ban an a$$ after a fart.
I've driven two cars at or around 100mph on the highway -- a Datsun 240Z and a Plymouth Caravelle. The former I borrowed from a friend for a trip-with-a-girl, the latter I drove as a salesman.
Guess which car was better at 100mph. Nope, the Caravelle...by a mile.
I nudged the Z to 100 (it might have been 90 something...happened 30 years ago and yes my beard is gray) and immediately reduced the speed to 70mph range for the rest of the trip due to the feeling of a car about to be out of control.
The Caravelle, on the other hand, never felt out of its element. I pushed it very hard, on winding roads...no issues. I cruised at 85mph for hours...no issues. I would start it, immediately slam it into gear, and go. Couldn't have asked for more from a car...and I don't like Plym/Chry/Dodg vehicles (for personal ownership).
So, you never know what cars suck at being cars until you drive them. Sounds like this Porsche sucks. And it also sounds like Paul's "friend" wasn't.
I come here for the love
Because it's the car that's unsafe. If they were driving any other vehicle, the headline would use it's name instead. Those two died, it's terribly sad, but it could have happened to anyone in any car.
40-45 mph:
http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/paul-walker-was-real-hero-daughter-heart-soul-his-charity-2D11683842
I suppose even a minor wreck can be fatal if the gas tank is ruptured.
I, along with most other "enthusiasts", wholeheartedly appreciate all the electronic gear and realize that a lot of it does make for outright faster lap times - but at the same time, I'd like to be able to switch it off should I choose. There's something to be said for hanging the ass out with a healthy jab at the throttle and shrieking around a parking lot trailing smoke, or slip-sliding around a corner on an empty gravel road in the boonies. OTOH, with extensive winter driving experience, there's also something to be said for having every driver aid known to man spinning a set of Blizzaks in the middle of a wicked nor'easter - all that skulduggery has gotten me home with far less stress than my reflexes and skills alone. There's a time and a place for everything, but a lot of manufacturers these days are eliminating the choice.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
The guy driving the car for starters since he was clearly travelling WAY about the posted speed limit.
A guy I know lived out by Fairfield, CA. There's some roads a bit off the interstate there that connect the back side of town with the countryside.
One of these road is rather hilly and includes some powerlines about 50-100 feet off the end of one of the corners.
This older guy around 60 or 70 had an old stingray corvette (can't remember if it was a C2 or C3), freshly restored. He'd been out driving these roads for probably 40 years. Takes the car out on one of the first test drives since completing it. Where does he end up? That power pole 50+ feet off the end of the road. In order to hit that pole the guy had to be doing 100+ on a road he'd driven hundreds of times. Yet one lapse in either memory or judgement left him wrapped around a phone 30+ feet in the air and 50-100 feet off the road.
Given that, these guys, even assuming they were sober, could've easily made such a mistake and coming in too hard on the wrong corner run out of runway before they could bleed off their speed. Crappy, but it happens to even the best of drivers. I personally would never wish to give up the control of a full manual car, but I certainly think that there are plenty of people on the road who we'd be better off having transit in vehicles NOT under their own control. Just so long as the idiots don't force the rest of us to ride in similiarly automated vehicles. I like my nice simple reliable car just as much as they like their car that thinks for them. And at least here in America that sort of freedom was what we were supposed to stand for.
Are you telling me that industry has so many regulation on how a car handled a crash that they all pretty much have to look alike, but no regulations at all the prevent a car that is near impossible to drive without getting into a crash?
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
News for nerds!
Wow!
given what is shown in the SIX movies was this a case of the actor THINKING he was better at driving than he was??
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Since Slashdot is supposed to be a place for nerds... and nerds like to know the technical details more than just sensationalizing the latest headlines (or at least like to think so).... here's some technical information on why cars like the Porsche Carrera GT is so difficult to drive. I unfortunately don't have time to write out all the details here, but here are some basic principles of automotive suspension tuning to keep in mind:
As you can see... the more aggressive you tune a chassis (which the Carrera GT was designed to be very aggressive, as that's the market they were after), the less compliant the car will be, and the more apt it will bite you if you make a mistake. Is this unsafe, or just a fact of the physics involved that you can't drive an aggressive sports car and expect it to handle like your Camry?
I've learned from the news that cars are dangerous!
Meanwhile, I spend almost every weekend patching together my friend's 1972 Super Beetle, which he drives daily to work, and he takes off from every light light like he's racing the next guy regardless of whether the other guy is driving a cheap Kia or a Lambo. At this point, the challenge has become how long we can continue to keep the car going, we continue to weld, patch, bondo, repaint, fix the engine when needed, and do whatever is needed to keep it running while he's putting 18,000 miles per year on a 41-yr old car. And we live in the Northeast, where beating the rust is an on-going issue.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
A minor mistake that is forgivable becomes a major mistake that can kill.
However, wankers and morons will take the car if they can afford it BECAUSE it's a monster carpeen.
Looking at the pictures, it's pretty freakin' obvious the driver went "Lemme show you what the car can do - I got skillz yo, no worries!" and pegged it on a public street. Regardless of any risk to others, it's insanely moronic to drive like that off-track simply because there's zero margin. You fuck up, you die. No nice kerbs or runoff or gravel pits or SAFER walls to hit...just trees and lightposts. At 45mph, that car was perfectly safe, probably safer than anything else on the road that day because it's designed to go, and crash, much faster.
But it wasn't exactly going 45 now, was it? Even IF something in the car broke, and that was why there was a loss of control - there was a loss of control at MASSIVELY EXCESSIVE SPEED. The gearhead-hooligan in me is sad, but the Responsible Adult is pleased these idiots sanitized the gene pool.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
You have to have at least X rpm or the engine stalls, no matter how much torque you have on tap.
And if your gears work that X rpm in third down to 40mph, then at 30mph you stall.
All mid engine cars have another quirk, when you are in a hard turn and you are having under steer, you actually have to hot the gas and not slow down for the turn and then you have to know the car very VERY well, because the point of no return where the rear let's go is like a knife edge.... grip,grip,grip, slide and if you are not ready for it the car will spin out. so drifting in one is for 10,000hour driving experts only. I know this,as I own a 400hp RWD mid engine custom car that is set up very much like this car.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Is the car _too_ dangerous? No.
Was the driver's IQ too low too drive such a car? obivously yes.
Ohhh, now I know what car you're talking about, "Porsche" by itself didn't job my memory enough.
"Unsafe at any speed"
I was reading stuff about this on Jalopnik, and even the test driver for this car was scared by it.
Former world rally champion and Porsche test driver Walter Rohrl told Drive the new Porsche supercar is "the first car in my life that I drive and I feel scared".
Earlier this year, Rohrl said, the engineering team was about to cancel a day's testing at the famous Nurburgring circuit because of wet weather. But, Rohrl said, when he insisted the car had to be tested in slippery conditions, he discovered the car's daunting performance.
"I came back into the pits and I was white," Rohrl said. "I immediately said to the engineers that we need one button for the wet and one button for the dry", referring to the need for a traction control switch.
This car is so hard to control that you have to give it your attention 110% of the time or it will bite you in the ass. Jay Leno spun one at 180+ MPH on the track.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
You are confusing "were those car you drove in 1950 too dangerous comapred to the average 1950's car" and you are right that response is indeed no. But are cars with a security concept from the 1950 too dangerous compared to today's security you listed ? hell yeah. 1950's car were not deformable. That alone make a huge difference. When was the last time you heard somebody dying because the steering column destroyed his sternum ? You don't anymore. But you used to. Those car are nowadays too dangerous, because there are SAFER alternative. As for the porsche, it is a circuit car in its optimum usage. On road usage, it is a sub optimum car, and it is definitively a car in which people are bound to go for bad habits , like speeding. The few porsche user I ever saw were *always* highly speeding. One things to remember, is that luckily those guys killed themselves on an inanimate object. It could have been another car instead, and we have had enough example here around of BMW, porsche user piling themselves into innocent bystander at 200+ kmh.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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visit randi.org
First I doubt any slashdotter has seriously driven any sports car. Or a motorcycle. By serious I mean consistently over 250km/h with turns.
Second, what do you expect from a car built to be fast? That it behaves like a family sedan? You press the throttle it will generate power, and there will be no limits.
I get rather angry at this kind of bullshit news.
is that the barrier to entry is money, not driving skill. Any bozo with enough money and a driver's license can buy one of these cars. This is the kind of car that very few people would have the skill to drive properly, let alone afford the thing in the first place.
So what's the solution? Well, making the car or the insurance more expensive won't help. Remember, these guys (mostly) have lots of money to begin with. Banning the cars completely? No, that won't help either. Are we going to ban bridges too because someone might jump off one?
How about making the safety equipment (stability control, traction control, etc.) mandatory at the factory? I'm ok with that as long as you have the ability to turn it off when you need to. And would that extra feeling of safety encourage them to drive even faster? Maybe.
It's a difficult question to answer. At what point does your right to enjoyment infringe upon the rights of others?
All fast cars should be banned if no reason to own one. Same applies to firearms and controlled substances.
If you don't want a shitty car, don't buy one. People usually say things like "but shit is all I can afford," but in this case, the hard-to-drive car is expensive.
I realize that people who did not choose to buy the car, are at risk by other people who do, since multiple cars often operate on a single road. That's generally a legit reason to point guns at peoples' faces and say "don't, or else." But once again, the expensiveness of the car makes it so rare, that you might as well be getting your panties in a bunch as you quake with fear of being eaten by sharks at your next trip to the beach.
Before you buy a car, research it. Combine that with mandatory liability insurance/bonding/whatever and what's left just isn't worth worrying about. There's no need to start talking about "too dangerous" along with the implicit threat that you're going to take some peoples' fun toys away from them.
I definitely do not want to start a war here, but give me a V6 Mustang and I can have just as much fun on the streets or the track as someone with a $100k Porsche, or any other "super car" for that matter. Plus it looks much more bad ass.
OK...I do want to start a war. :-)
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
No.
So people are asking about the safety and stability of Porsches because a celebrity died. Mid-engined Porsches are now and have always been far safer than the rear-engined varieties. Rear-engined models suffer (earlier models much more than recent ones) from lift-throttle oversteer. If you enter a curve too fast and then back off the throttle (a normal response), because of the semi-trailing-arm geometry of the rear suspension the reduction in squat causes a reduction in the outside rear wheel's toe-in, which steers the back end of the car outwards, sometimes sending the car off the road backwards. The rear suspension design combined with the rear weight bias made the 911 and its ilk inherently dangerous for unaware drivers and at least twitchy for the rest. Even today, if you want a somewhat-forgiving predictably-handling Porsche, buy a mid-engined Boxster or Cayman. The real issue with the mid-engined GT was not the engine location but the race-car reflexes and very high horsepower. As others have said, OK for skilled and practiced drivers paying 100% attention, but not otherwise. I'm fine with people focusing attention on Porsche's bad designs, but the V10 GT wasn't particularly one of them.
What kind of idiot needs 600 horsepower on a public road? How is it even legal for this car to be /on/ a public road?
It's a sports car, and a Porsche at that. That's what they do.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
have on the dash a slot for a "race key" that you click in and then use like a toggle (hold for 3 seconds and then slide Up/down to set.
This would ,stability control, ABS ect
1 disable the now "unneeded" safety options (speedlimiter
2 turn the on a set of "race mode" lights (maybe some neon strings if you want to get fancy??)
Of course this would also enable folks to get ticketed for Intent to Race on Public Streets if somebody "forgets" to pocket their Race key driving about.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Does the GT have a fuel cell* or a tank? Specs I've found online only mention 'tank' (24.3 US gal, 92 L). The ensuing fire may very well have been due to the tank (located mid-chassis, behind the seats) rupturing. I would be shocked and surprised to see such a car intended for racing, equipped with a standard fuel tank.
*Not the electrochemical battery type. The safety bladder, foam filled tanks required by many racing organizations.
Have gnu, will travel.
The problem is that if you're driving an unsafe vehicle on public roads
The car was not unsafe in normal use. The car was only unsafe when pushed really hard (as in: something you probably shouldn't be doing on public roads).
you're not just putting your own life at risk, but that of other drivers
Of note is that no other drivers were harmed, or even around when the accident took place.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not sure if it was mentioned. Cold tires could have been a major factor in this accident. Motorcyclists know this all too well; cold performance tires and too much throttle can put a vehicle in a spin in fractions of a second without warning. Even in straight line acceleration, the back end could have gotten away from him. With a lack of grip all the way around, any spin would have been unrecoverable. RIP to these two young men. But in a weird sort of way, for a couple of car guys, I've heard of worse ways to go.
A truly skilled driver would not have crashed the car as this idiot did.
This was not an accident. It was the result of stupidity and extremely
poor judgement.
The car has nothing to do with it. Lack of skill and poor judgement are the
culprits.
It's unsafe, for a street car. That's it.
Street driving laws and requirements are based on a very low-qualified driver. 50% of drivers are below average. 10% are in the lowest tenth in terms of ability. This is tautological statistics.
Cars need to failsafe as much as possible, because you cannot control who will drive them on the street given current laws and attitudes. Frankly, given the abilities of most licensed drivers current street cars are too powerful and their handling too difficult.
Even top 10% drivers, even top 1% will have failures that affect the rest of us. Want a racing car - buy it to run on the track or closed courses. Want a street car - accept with the reality of the environment and other drivers, as well as your own fallibility.
TLDR: It's unsafe, for a street car. That's it.
Sure, most downmarket cars don't have the ability to switch off the stuff, but then again who wants to zip a Fiesta around like Vettel? (Well, the ST is amazing, but I digress). Funny thing though, most of the high-end vehicles still offer plenty of ways to shut down all the aids. Hell, most of 'em come with a Big Red Switch conspicuously labeled "RACE MODE" that handily switches everything off and resets the suspension for performance. I take it that should all be banned, no?
Come to think of it, why should ANY car capable of exceeding 75mph, or getting there in 15 seconds, be legal? Seriously?
Also, if you enjoy a sports car with anything other than TC and ABS (both of which make it faster) you have no business wasting money and fuel driving it.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Somebody buys a car like this, they should already know what it can do.
Except that the people who are the likely buyers for a car like that and the people that can drive it well are seldom the same people. Most people that buy a car like a Corvette really can't handle the car anywhere close to its limits, never mind a street legal race car like the Porsche. But you get lots of guys with more cash than brains.
Cars don't kill actors. Porsches kill actors.
you've obviously never driven a porsche boxster. one of the most stable, well handling cars i've ever driven. and it's mid-engine.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
"...possible evidence of a fluid burst and subsequent fluid trail before the skid marks at the accident scene."
The sources also made evident the absence of skids leading up to where the crash took place, with marks only noticeable before the point of impact. They claim if Roger had lost control of the vehicle there would be visible signs on the road from swerving rather than in a straight line, suggesting he didn't have control of the steering. "
Which would make all this talk of their skill and the dangers of that model moot in this situation. Perhaps we should wait for the final investigation report.
I have a few friends that drive GTs and one who has a GT RS. All of them emphasized that they "worked their way up" to the GT. First a BMW 3 series, then a BMW M3, then a Porsche Boxster, then a Carrera, and finally (in one case) a 911. They all said that the step-up to their first Porsche was the biggest difficulty, and when they went to professional racetrack driving lessons.
YouTube is littered with videos of these things crashing in inexperienced hands.
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
if the driver wants to drive a Carrera GT because he thinks it is "cool" then they should only hand them to you if you have the necessary training
This is what is done in aviation in the U.S. If a private pilot wants to fly a high performance aircraft then they need additional training and endorsements for their license. Keep in mind that in aviation high performance is an engine with more than 200 horsepower, we are *not* talking about racing or acrobatic aircraft, simply "excess" horsepower.
The basic idea being that with greater horsepower comes greater speed and with greater speed comes less time to fix a problem or mistake.
You know, some of us remember driving cars that didn't have airbags, antilock brakes, traction control, rear view cameras, auto felch, auto transmission, etc. Neither then nor now were those cars ''too dangerous.''
In 1972 there were 54,589 traffic deaths in the U.S., population 201 million.
In 2012, 34,080 traffic deaths, population 314 million.
In 1972, 4 deaths per 100 million miles travelled.
In 2012, 1 death per 100 million miles travelled. List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year
Protip 1: It's safer for everyone if you drive your car near its limits on a track with safety gear rather than on the open roads.
Why people have any sympathy for these guys is beyond me. They exceeded the 45-mph speed limit on a public road in their $450,000 car by so much that it completely disintegrated when it hit a light pole. Walker had enough money that he could have built his own private race track or rented the road from the city for the day.
Unless the throttle got stuck AND they couldn't get the (standard transmission) car into neutral, they are both incredibly irresponsible as they could have killed dozens of people.
The hypocrisy associated with the AP reporting and posted messages on other sites is almost as horrifying. If any "normal" person drove like that, the cops would immediately revoke their license and jail them and the public would ostracize them. Teenagers die every day by wrapping their WRXs around light poles and people would immediately accuse them of being hot-rodding idiots before the accident reports are completed. However, because this guy was famous and had experience driving fast, expensive cars, we're all expected to be sad for him, his friends and his family?
Granny shifting, not double-clutching like you should.
This car is dangerous! All it's designed to do is go fast and kill stupid people.
BAN IT!!!
BAN IT AND GUNS and CHEMICALS AND ANYTHING THAT CAN BE BAD!!!
THANKS!
Stability control saves lives, know what Porsche's PSM stands for? Please Save Me. The non GT Carrera's i.e. the 911's all have stability control and even though there is a button to turn it off it is not completely disengaged.
A few years back another GT driver and his passenger were killed on a race track in So. California by a Ferrari entering the track the GT swerved, went in to the grass and hit a retaining wall. http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2006-06-07/carrera-gt-crashes-into-court
These cars need stability control, this is a huge mess for Porsche. Thank God they don't make these GT's anymore, half of them are gone anyway and when the wreck there's not much left.
Who is Paul Walker?
Who is Paul Walker?
Relative of Walker Texas Ranger. Try and keep up!
There's a time and a place for everything, but a lot of manufacturers these days are eliminating the choice.
The muscle cars of the 1960s disappeared when auto insurance rates priced them out of reach of their target audience.
You can engineer a car for performance on the track or you can engineer a car for safety and economy on the public roads. The hybrid racer-roadster is as deeply compromised physically as the flying car and will most likely meet the same end.
The problem is that if you're driving an unsafe vehicle
The problem is pussies like you who think you have the exclusive right to define what's "unsafe", and who won't rest until you've bitched and complained and twisted arms and pointed guns at enough people's heads to ensure your worthless ass feels safe.
... on public roads, you're not just putting your own life at risk, but that of other drivers (and pedestrians) as well. You might be willing to take the risk of not having Electronic Stability Control and anti-lock braking, but why should the other people on the roads have to put up with the unnecessarily increased risk that you'll crash into them?
Because life is dangerous, and this is a free country.
Unfortunately, these days the place is full of cowards like yourself who spend your miserable lives being frightened of every little thing. That's why it's become such an authoritarian shithole. You are such a disgusting piece of shit. Look in the mirror: you are the problem.
How many of these cars are there on the road? How many are involved in fatal crashes? Take the second number and divide it by the first. Compare it to other cars. If the porsche number is significantly higher, then you have a story.
Otherwise you're just making excuses to gossip about celebrities and point fingers.
It is true, all 600HP porsche drivers should give up thier cars to me for sefe-keeping. They are far too dangerous to be driven by our valued rich people.
We need to enact laws that will protect human beings. If we can save just one life by enacting laws it is worth it. People should not be allowed to drive for themselves. They should not be allowed to ride a bicycle or walk the dangerous sidewalks without a hemet and a but pillow. Also Poor people should not be allowed to have kids. Poor people are not able to support kids, and the kids end up going to an impovished family. Come to think of it Rich people should not be allowed to have kids. Even though statistically the children of rich people will live longer, they will still end up dying. It is completely unresponsible for parents to be having kids KNOWING full well that the said kids will die.
The only way we can save the lives of the unborn is by keeping them from being born and by outlawing this dangerous car.
Just because you are free does not mean you are free to harm other humans. Everytime your hurt yourself you hurt others because they are forced to pay your medical bills.
There I just about summed up the last 20 years of U.Sian judicial and legislative thought. I wonder why the Chinese / Mexicans and every other nation on the planet is laughing at us.
This is posed as as if it were questioning the safety of a regularly available car. The Carerra GT is a very limited production run vehicle (limited to 1,000 or so) that hasn't been made in 7 years. It's not even fair to compare it to any other street-legal Porsche every made because it was such a rare, expensive, and powerfully tuned vehicle. It was a 600hp car in its stock version, and a fairly light car at that. I believe that the car Paul Walker was in was more powerful than stock.
I'm going to take the cautioning of professional drivers who say this model car is unforgiving and scary over an armchair, taco and chicken eating novice in a stock domestic. There's no reason to skip traction and stability control components with a half million dollar price tag...especially on a car meant to be driven amongst other drivers on streets. Keep making excuses for Porsche, even though they are exceedingly good and excusing themselves. Guess the guy in Shanghai was a "bad driver" too....people make me laugh.
Died in a Porsche as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dean#Accident_and_aftermath
If only he had stability control.....
Well 1,270 were made between 2004-2007 and 604 were sold in the U.S.
So just looking at the four people who died in the U.S. (that I know of): 2 in the accident with Paul Walker and 2 in the 2006 crash out of 604 cars that's pretty high. Also not everyone can afford $500k+ car, those who do tend to be known in some fashion.
These cars are temperamental, twitchy, and unsafe maybe one of the reasons Porsche stopped making them. If you want a fast Porsche get the 991 Turbo S, albeit not as pretty.
C'mon people!
The car went into flames. The passengers were probably killed thanks to the fire, not the shock.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
"Is the Porsche Carrera GT Too Dangerous?" = No. Is a Veyron too dangerous? Is a 1000cc motorbike too dangerous?
"Are drivers who break the law dangerous to others?" = Yes
Retard subject of the year on /.
Porsche stopped making them not because they are unsafe (they are not, they were at the time Porsches safest and best handling car, by far) but because that's the nature of supercars, they're always made in limited quantities. Google Ferrari F40, Ferrari Enzo, Porsche 959, Aston Martin 77, Lamborghini Reventon, Lamborghini Veneno, Koenigsegg (any model), Pagani (any model), Bugatti Veyron, McLaren F1, Mercedes McLaren SLR, etc.
Btw, if you want to go fast in a Porsche, get a 918 Spyder. Makes the Carrera GT look absolutely pedestrian. If your pockets are not that deep, get a 911 GT2 RS. If your pockets aren't that deep, get an entry used Cayman with a blown engine and have BGB Motorsports transplant one of their new 911 4.0 stroker engines, you'll be eating 911s for lunch all week long.
Bah, sport cars don't need brakes. Just direct me to a tree to wrap around.
...what the patronizing guy in Red Asphalt 3 would say?
You drive a Porsche Carrera GT even at or below the speed limit? YOU DIE!
Don't blame Porsche for delivering what the consumer wants. Some people should have big soft luxury cars that are nice to ride in, but can't get out of their own way. They need these because they have no interest in doing anything else in a car but get from point A to point B and back. That is okay. There are others that prefer to "drive" rather than "ride" in a car. They push the envelope, and need to understand what the car can and can't do, because sooner or later they are going ask the car to do it. (Only real way to push the envelope). A riders car will have either a front or rear engine. If you push either too hard either the front end slides or the rear end slides. A Driver's/Racer's car is balanced so that all four wheels have equal traction. But, when a balanced weight car breaks traction, it does it with all four wheels. If all you ever drove was an unbalanced car you will not have a clue how to recover. The car in question; (carrying Paul Walker) was driven in the wrong manner in the wrong location, pure and simple. Don't blame the car.
It's not how much horsepower you have, it's how much you can use. 600 is way too much for the street. That car is a track toy. More than 300 for the street is way overkill.
Please, no responses from teenagers or scene kids. These groups only want the horsepower for bragging rights. Most of them would crap their low hanging pants if they ever used it.
It's curious to see so many comments about speed and "driver aids" but the predominant number are from Americans where the government sees fit to impose a 55 (nee 35) mile an hour speed limit and yet the number of accidents outweighs the EU and specifically Germany by up to 70:1 where the baseline speed limits are as high 70mph on this type of road (up to 200mph+ on a motorway). It always amazes me these police-chase videos...
"This guy is driving at dangerous speeds as high as 80mph on a freeway " 85mph is the speed limit in France and has less accidents than the UK (70mph) and US(something ridiculous) and I regularly drive safely at 130mph in Germany (having daily checked evy aspect of the safety of my vehicle)
Anyone here that's complaining about the "safety" of the car as the issue... When did you last check your tires, coolant, break fluid, traction systems before setting off? Did you? Ever? Daily? Before you put a machine capable of killing people in a public place?
As the majority of the answers here are no maybe think about the following instead of pointing at a "car" as the problem
It is a simple point. If I buy a Carrera GT and don't know how to drive and drive like an untrained "raced driver" then ill at best crash and at worst die.
By
all means have any car (get a pagani zonda if you really want - makes the Carrara GT look like a Prius) just don't drive it like you are Senna, because you are not.
Wanna buy a fast expensive carL go for it. But you need an instructor to teach you first how it differs from a nation of V8s with "leaf spring" suspension de riguer or the 2.0t VW golf that makes you think you're the god of driving. You aren't.
In the end, the car is never, ever the issue. It is the human interface that's always and every *single* time the problem (with a plethora of reasons, even those where mechanical failure ws blamed, proving, unequivocally that this is the case)
I'm not sure what "Top Gear" is, but wouldn't you think someone being quoted in the media would know that "phenomena" is a plural noun?
I will never ever understand WHY production cars have this much power...can reach speeds that goes above the speed limits...BUT...it comes down to the person driving it. Just like a gun. It's the human "interaction" with it/both.
Everything is legislated illegal in the west.
Sure, the Carrera is too dangerous, and so are SUVs and minivans and trucks and who knows what other cars that exist. Just because one celebrity died on it doesn't mean it's automatically an expensive hearse; hundreds of thousands of people die on "normal" cars everyday and no one is going around banning subarus.
Well, call me Anonymous Coward if you must... For what it is worth, I have owned and loved Porsche automobiles for 25 years. The Carrera GT, as many knowledgeable folks have commented here, is a different breed of cat. A pure-D race car in street drag if there ever was one. Dangerous? Sure! Any car with a modicum of horsepower is dangerous when pushed to its limits. I am on my fourth Porsche now, and over the years have owned many other high performance cars (BMW, Jaguar V12). With all of them, I soon learned that when near the edge of the envelope, they can become stunningly vicious in half a heartbeat. Even Porsche AG, in their owners manuals, implores drivers to obey traffic laws and use reason.
Another factor in this particular incident was the presence of those hard rubber dots on the road for centerline markers. I had a friend with a Ferrari 348 that gave a joyride to a friend of his wife in an industrial park with those dots on the streets. At 90 mph, he slewed over them a little on a corner, and the car went berserk! Complete 360 degree spin into a light pole. Totaled the Ferrari, injured his passenger (who later sued him). They were lucky and survived, however. I would wager that this is what happened to Paul Walker and his friend.
The fuel tank is also at the front...I was hit very hard in my Astra by some nutter in a 911 which burst into flames,do Porsche have a safety problem here? Thankfully he was ok.
Why does anybody need to drive this on the public roads and why do I have to be put at risk by rich but classless twat c*nt idiots who want to show off? They can drive it on a race track and w*nk over the video of themselves later. There should not only be a speed limit on the roads, there should also be an Acceleration Limit.
Exactly as for your regular PC, the problem lies between the seat and the wheel (screen), the machine is only the tool.
...every other 911 derivative for the last 50 years.
The original 911 would just swing that engine right around in front if you'd let it.
When did they become mid-engine?
(Oh: I see: *the 980* was mid.)
I've driven a Porsche Carrera GT extensively in Need For Speed Rivals, Most Wanted and Hot Pursuit. I can say unequivocally that it is a safe car to drive.
And I'm at least as qualified to drive the Carrera GT at high speeds as Paul Walker, who had similar experience with driving high performance cars at high speed.
You are welcome on my lawn.