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Which is why you have to do some hacking in order to let an iBook run with the lid closed

I'm not complaining about having to use an adaptor on my iBook for an external monitor. I stating that without a firmware hack, the external monitor will only mirror my built-in display. The firmware hack can be found here. Also on the page that lists supported macs, they indicate the Mac mini is not supported. Checking google, I see that people have gotten a dual monitor working with a Mac mini. On almost every page I've check they ended up buying some sort off of powered device that is connected to the mac mini and has two video ports for the monitors. It appears as one big display to the mac mini and splits the display to both monitors.

In any case, I believe that I have given 2 cases of Apple's hardware not supporting dual monitors built within the last 4 years. Thus I don't think it's an unreasonable request on the requirements of wishlist midrange mac.

I'm not complaining about having to use an adaptor on my iBook for an external monitor. I stating that without a firmware hack, the external monitor will only mirror my built-in display. The firmware hack can be found here. Also on the page that lists supported macs, they indicate the Mac mini is not supported. Checking google, I see that people have gotten a dual monitor working with a Mac mini. On almost every page I've check they ended up buying some sort off of powered device that is connected to the mac mini and has two video ports for the monitors. It appears as one big display to the mac mini and splits the display to both monitors.

In any case, I believe that I have given 2 cases of Apple's hardware not supporting dual monitors built within the last 4 years. Thus I don't think it's an unreasonable request on the requirements of wishlist midrange mac.

Cheers!

RS

The new MacBook does dual display. The old iBook did too, if you installed Screen Spanning Doctor.

Having said that, I agree that it's unfortunate that the 12" Powerbook got killed. The 13" Macbook is as wide as my old 14" iBook.

1. imacs can mirror to another display (vga; dvi only with vga=>dvi box)
2. screen spanning doctor http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html enables , well, screen spanning on imacs and ibooks
3. dvd player can be set to disable the other display while playing movies
4. front row patches have been available for a while, so you can run it on most newer macs. a guy even has put a mac mini in his (off all cars) f150, complete with front row etc: http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=818

i personally use a mac mini without display, controlled via VNC (built into OS X 10.4) and a sanyo plv-z2.

Did you not know about the screen spanning hack?? Check it out!

You can actually get dual display from an eMac using Screen Spanning Doctor.

Or, depending on the performance you need, a used G4 might cut it.

But one way or another you'll have to compromise. I switched from a 1.7 GHz P4 motherboard clone I'd put together to an unsupported Mac with a G3/400 upgrade, and it was worth it to me. You can now get a used G4/500, maybe a dual, for what I ended up putting into it.

Oh really ? Do you have a link to that ?

Maybe. try: http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/supportlist_e. html

My question is... apart from OSX, why would anyone buy a Powerbook or iBook? I occasionally see people running Linux on their 'books and wonder why they didn't get a good laptop like a Thinkpad instead.

The "apart from OS X" is a biggie, of course...One nice thing about Linux on a Mac is that you can still run OS X programs at almost native speed. But for Linux only, yeah, I think I'd take a look at a ThinkPad, too.

"Prosumers." You know, people who think they have to spend $600 more to get features like dual-monitor support that Apple cripples out of the iBook*.

(Posted from a 12" PowerBook)

* Apparently you have to hack an iBook to get its graphics card to do something it was built to do.

Here is the hack: http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/supportlist_e. html

Screen spanning hack

Keep your monitor, buy an iMac, have double the screen real estate. Tasty.

As for Apple not making a Mac for you... sorry? They can't make a product for every single combo of desires. They're just the one company, where the PC market has a thousand trying to make a buck catering to individual whims.

They sell their computers to the people who want them and they make money. I'm not sure they even look at market share as a reasonable goal anymore. They just sell stuff. You buy it or you don't.

Most people who actually make the switch find that the amount they gain from it is so huge, any niggling grumps over the exact specs of a machine are wiped out by the saved time.

Except you're wrong. It's already here:

http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

Enjoy!

(if you follow the link, you'll see that many other models are supported, not just the ibook)

Mike

The current iBook is great deal. Amazon, since many months ago, has offered a $100 rebate on the base $999 model. I convinced my brother to go with one. He's been singing its praises ever since (he had a G4/500MHz desktop previously). Just to be clear for those in the market: $999 base model - $100 rebate == $899 for a brand-new iBook. CD-RW. DVD-ROM. AirPort Extreme (802.11g wireless). Ethernet (10/100). Modem. USB 2. FireWire 400. VGA output. It is a steal.

Yes, you can hack the firmware.

The Mac Mini only has one video output port and no space for expansion cards so it can't drive two monitors. While Apple nominally only allow "screen spanning" on their higher end machines you can in fact tweak most of their models to do this using the Screen Spanning Doctor to change the PROM settings. I've used this successfully on my G4 iMac and I've seen it used on the current G5 iMac hardware. The same code also works on many of the iBook laptops.

There is a difference between what is supported and what is possible.

iBooks do not support extended desktop

That's right, although there is a 'hack' that claims to do this. I've not tried it. You need to step up to a Powerbook if you want dual display as well as video mirroring out of the box.

Quicktime does not play fullscreen

You're right. In their wisdom, Apple reserved this feature for Quicktime Pro (a $29 upgrade).

Not being a switcher, I can't answer your main question directly!

Screen Spanning Doctor.

Bless it. Works beautifully on my iBook. I do however miss:

• Halflife 2
• The ability to turn off the laptop screen and use merely the external monitor
• Relatime dolby from my SoundStorm

But those are the full sum of my regrets after moving from a Athlon 2800+/nForce 2 to an iBook. The OS easily makes up for the relatively slow hardware :-)

Concerning the extended desktop on iBooks:
http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/supportlist_e. html
will do the trick (easy, safe -list of supported machines, clean). Concerning the Quicktime full-screen, previous answers are complete (buy it if you also need editing, trick it, or just use VLC as you perhaps already do on Linux).

And yes, there are differences between Linux, Windows and MacOsX and that makes some of the possible annoyance.
If you know Linux well, you'll discover some little changes, like when you switch to FreeBSD or AIX or Solaris. Basically you can (configure; make; make install;) run most of Linux tools. You'll certainly miss the multi-desktop feature (not included but some free/sharewares do the trick) and discover Expose (whaaaou).

If you know Windows well, you'll find the Finder strange at the beginning, you'll perhaps regret the latest games (situation gets better but slowly), and some advanced P2P/Ripping tools (situation gets better really fast), you'll miss the global inconsistence you got accustomed to and perhaps some keyboard tricks (like calling menus with alt-E), you'll discover new Ms Prices (Office is really expensive on Mac and stealing it is easier but still forbidden), you'll miss the graphical admin (get server tools if you like admin with windows or get some of the freewares which do that well or remember it's Unix and you can do what you want with a terminal). And of course you'll discover "major updates" with "real features" (and "price";-( every 18 months.

There are plenty of good sides of course but you seem to have heard enough of them for today...

Just remember the first week is awkward and you have to realize you need to learn new moves. Don't try a small weekend switch and get ready to spend some time at the beginning to make your new /Users (oops, not /home nor /usr) feel good.

And ask some Mac users about your precise needs and habits, they'll certainly tell you how to find a solution.

I have been using a mac since OS 6 was first introduced. I currently own an iBook G4 and while it does not support an extended desktop there is a firmware hack that will provide you with this capability if you have a vid card with enough RAM.

That said I do have 2 pcs at home, one running windows XP and the other running Debian. For some of the more obvious annoyances between my mac and windows pc (fink and apple's X11 actually give me most of the capabilities of my Debian box):
1) many websites (large corporations, including many banks) are optimized for windows and will not display properly in Safari or IE for mac (no longer supported by Microsoft). This can be overcome if you happen to run Microsoft's Virtual PC, which will run XP and therefore a compatible IE.
2)I do not like iPhoto's categorizing my digital photos. I have yet to find a good program for the mac (I use Firehand Ember on my PC)
3)Which brings me to another point, there is a lot more shareware out there for Windows (however, if you are proficient with Unix, many of these types of applications have already been written for Unix and can be compiled on OS X given a little time).
4)If you need to have all the shiny new software out there, then the mac is not for you. An example is Gmail. It only recently began supporting Safari and there is still no Gmail notifier for OS X (although there are some nifty Gmail widgets out there for Konfabulator).
5)Upgrading is more often than not a problem. Don't think that you can head off to CompUSA and buy a new video card for your new G5 tower. Memory is really the only readily upgradeable component in an apple (and this is only a recent addition). Many apples leave you stuck with what you bought (I do not really see this as a big problem as I like to upgrade to a completely new system every 2 years or so anyways).
6)People will salivate all over your new computer. So if you have OCD don't buy a new mac.

If you are heavy into windows and need to use Microsoft Access or other windows only apps extensively, don't think that virtual PC will be your savior if you buy a mac. In this case stick with Windows for these things. However, if you are just waffling because you can not think of what you "might" be missing, just jump in and go buy a new 1.33GHz iBook, you will not be disappointed. I myself will always use a macintosh, not being a PC gamer and now that I have the command line and X11 I may never use anything else.

Apple still cripples the iBook with mirrored-only video. No desktop spanning. The Radeon chipsets they use do support it, but Apple reserves that feature for the Powerbooks.

Get Screen Spanning Doctor.

The PowerBook has a wonderful ability to span the video to an external monitor or composite monitor/TV. The native 1024x768 12" iBook/Powerbook screen is the bare minimum usable realestate.... The iBook can output to an external video monitor, but again, it's only going to mirror to it.

You can screen-span with the iBook too. If it weren't possible; I wouldn't have bought the iBook, as connecting a large external monitor is absolutely essential for me when I'm at home.

I take my Powerbook to work every day and throw it around everywhere. It has a hard and strong shell. The iBook probably wouldn't fare quite as well since it has such a highly-polished shell.

Agreed with you here. My iBook has been around the block a bit in its year of life (running around Iraq, rainstorms in Kathmandu, a bad case of sand infestation in Mexico) and it's definitely showing some wear on the shell. I take it as a badge of honor though. The white really shows dirt, by the way, especially on the touchpad.

Also, the ink has worn off many of the keycaps (NSTRL and all the vowels); not sure if that means I type too much or that my fingertips are particularly abrasive. Either way, I don't notice it much, but whenever someone else uses it, they get very confused.

However, this is easily remedied using a bit of shareware called Screen Spanning Doctor, which is available here: http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

Apple still cripples the iBook with mirrored-only video. No desktop spanning. The Radeon chipsets they use do support it, but Apple reserves that feature for the Powerbooks.

I've no idea why they continue do it, but it's easily worked around. :-)

yes, this is intentional on apple's behalf to keep the ibook from cutting into the PB's bottom end... but it's also easily worked around- you can do VGA monitor spanning (PBs let you have DVI) by mucking around in the open firmware or by downloading this nifty utility:
http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html
that even lets you do monitor spanning on the new imacs!

There is a simple software hack to enable spanning in the iBooks. Worked great on my G3 800. http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

Powerbooks can stretch the desktop over an external monitor; iBooks can only mirror.

Actually, iBooks can do dual-head too... :-)

The rest of the Powerbook extras do sound as if they'd be potentially very useful for many people, but (apart from the faster processor) I think I'll stick with what I've got. It makes my iBook seem like even better value, but if anyone wants to give me a Powerbook, it'd be more than welcome!

I can't imagine you're really going to come across any problems you can't figure out on your own as far as switching goes... Except that you may be S.O.L. as far as drivers go, especially for sub-name-brand peripherals.

BUT as an iBook owner I heartily recommend two things:

This keyboard protector. Buy it now and use it. White keyboards get very gross very fast, and it's impossible to clean dirt, pet hair and whatever else out from under the keys. And believe me, that stuff will show.

And if you're daring, try This patch. It enables you to use an external monitor in extended desktop mode instead of just mirroring the iBook screen. Evidently Apple locked this ability out to make that feature in the Powerbook more appealing. It works great, but read up on it before you use it.

the real loss is the video mirroring only support - instead of spanning. (why do they fear sales of PMG5's will be impacted if they allow spanning - instead - it just drives techies away - :( )

if the existing pattern holds, monitor spanning is disabled in the software, and it is quite simple to turn it on. :) ... if the pattern holds....

Okay, I was just taking a look at the video page for the new iMac, and off to the right where it says 'Mirror, Mirror'...anyone have access to one of these things? (I know, wishful thinking) because I've been hacking the old model, overclocking it and such, but part of the hack was making it span dual displays, of course right now I'm doing that with a crt studio display, but I'm not opposed to getting a nicer vga lcd for my second display, especially given that I'd be saving $1000 over the PowerMac G5.

That said, it would probably be okay if you kept the load low. You can check out Screen Spanning Doctor, which, in addition to enabling dual-head support on some iBooks, will allow you to run the iBook with the lid shut in OS X. Be warned! The dual-head hack only works for some iBooks, and can damage others, so check the compatibility list.

If 1024x768 resolution sounds a bit tight to you, then I would deffinitely get the powerbook, as the iBooks do not have full support for using an external monitor. An external display is only useable in mirroring mode, which constrains things to the iBooks rez. This is basically a result of apple crippling the hardware to keep it from canabalizing the pro line. However, an open firmware hack available at this website partially restores that capability, letting you span the screen (but not fully disable the laptop display, effectively halving your vram for games and the like).

http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

It tells about how you can use an nvramrc to change graphic-options on your mac to enable monitor spanning (as apposed to monitor mirroring). It works on Radeon 7500 eMacs but it is unclear yet whether this trick will work on these new eMacs. Let's hope so....

http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

It tells about how you can use an nvramrc to change graphic-options on your mac to enable monitor spanning (as apposed to monitor mirroring). It works on Radeon 7500 eMacs but it is unclear yet whether this trick will work on these new eMacs. Let's hope so....

Check this out.

Especially since they criple the lower end hardware, making it less attrictive to switcher. Example: The ibook you buy can't drive an external monitor at more the 1024x768 when my pc 200 mhz laptop easily can? This has turned off many people I know.

there is a firmware hack available which allows an ibook to use an external display at higher resolution than its lcd, as a second screen, not mirrored. check it out it worked great on my 700MHz ibook. I've run an external monitor at 1280x1024, 85 Hz.

I'm running an external 1280x1024 display spanned across to my 1024x768 12" iBook. Not mirrored but spanned. It's absolutely great and free.

It updates the open firmware to re-enable higher resolutions and dual head behaviour.

Cheers

Brian

Some people are iffy about using it because its a hack but I figured its ok since screen spanning is already in the iBook and just disabled. This is an installer for a hack that enables it.

I ran it on my 700mhz G3 iBook and it works fine. Reports are that it works on G4 iBooks as well. I can span the screen and connect external monitors running at resolutions up to whatever the video card can handle.

Apparently it also enables closed lid operation on the iBook with USB mouse, keyboard and external video but they dont recommend it because the keyboard is used for cooling. You dont want to bake your iBook with the lid shut :)

Sorry, but officially iBook can't use external monitor on dual screen mode but only on mirror mode.
I discovered this kind guy who developed a small tool to unlock this feature on nearly all the iBooks (and especially the new ones). It includes bigger resolutions as well and optionally let the iBook work once closed.
A friend of mine used it and is now working on a 12''+19'' space which seems to be a real pleasure.
Sometimes, Apple is just not kind, but they always let a small door. Enjoy!

Also, if you decide to buy an iBook, be aware that it CAN'T run with an external monitor in any higher resolution than it's internal LCD, something my old Dell latitude from 1997 does with no problems at all :-(

Yes, the hack works with the iBook G4s.

I'm buying one this week, so...

An example is monitor spaning on an iBook..although the video chipset is capable, they intentionaly disable it, so if you want it, you have to buy a higher priced Powerbook.

Or, you could just follow these directions and get desktop spanning on the iBook in about 2 minutes by making a minor change to a firmware setting.

Works great.

~Philly

All iBooks have VGA / S-Video, so hooking up a monitor is simple. But it only *mirrors* what's on your screen (stupid software limitation by Apple, there are workarounds, like shown here); whereas the Powerbooks do real multi-head display (your palettes on one screen, the windows on the other one, for example)

If you're going to use VPC on a regular basis, I'd say to go for a G4-based system, as VPC is G4/multiproceesor/Altivec-optimized (though I've never really tried VPC on a G3, maybe it runs just fine... Max out the RAM, install Windows 98 / 2000 rather than XP, which is a CPU/RAM hog).

A couple of things I haven't found out: (1) You mention people sell CPU upgrades... does the single-CPU PowerMac have a 2nd empty slot?
Hmmm, probably not, but I'm not 100% sure. As I understand it (but i could be wrong), the processors are on daughter cards, so you can install a daughter card with two processors to replace a daughter card with only one processor. Check with an Apple store or a CPU upgrade manufacturer (Giga designs, Sonnet...)

I'm not sure Powerbooks will get cheaper anytime soon: the prices have just dropped, and WWDC will probably only bring an updated Powermac line.
I suppose the Best Thing To Do is have a "hands on" test, at your favorite computer shop or at an Apple store.

I hope that helped!

None that I've heard of, although I know the Radeon equipped iMacs (17" only, IIRC) can do it. The linked webpage says:

I don't have any info about the eMac with Radeon 7500 yet but I expect no problems with this machine either (the old eMac did not work though).

There is also a temporary version of the hack, I'd go for it if I were you :)

Dave

BTW, the "trouser filling" ibook screen spanning hack does, in fact, work. And it works very well. The only down sides are that I have a low VRAM model ibook (16Meg) and screen spanning appears to disable quartz extreme, even with the 8MB hack thing applied as well; that I can't drive 1600x1200 at anything more than 60Hz, although I do get 1280x1024x75Hz so that's fine; and that when I connect the monitor in the morning it sometimes seems to forget that I like to run at 1280x1024 with the menu bar on the CRT. I think this may be caused by hooking in the monitor while it's powered off, but I've yet to be sufficiently concerned to get all scientific about it.

All new ibooks have twice as much video memory and probably wouldn't suffer from the QE disabling, so ... personally ... I don't really see the point in the 12" Powerbook if you have the will to apply the hack to an ibook and save yourself a wheel barrow full of money.

BTW, I'm typing this screen spanned onto a Sony 19" that has a USB hub in the base. I have a cheap as chips USB keyboard (windows key maps to apple/command, alt to option and ctrl to ctrl) and a standard PC optical mouse hooked into that and when I arrive in the morning I just hook in the usb and monitor connectors and we're away. The ibook's touchpad and keyboard remain active - the only thing that isn't completely duplicated is that I still only have one mouse pointer. It's really *really* cool, and I'm very impressed.

Dave

Actually, what's funny is that this works on Everyhing BUT PC's. It works on Suns and on Macs.

On sun it's called openboot and it's called open firmware on the mac.

You can access it with STOP-A on a Sun, and for a Mac it's Command-Option-O-F on boot.

Here's info from sun and A Sun Example

Here's Open Firmware info from apple and Mac Example.