Slashdot Mirror

Win, Linux

The reason most of these companies develop binary-only modules is to keep a leg up on their competition. Put simply, companies like nVidia don't want ATI or Matrox getting hold of their improvements. Some drivers include proprietary technology and speed or quality improvements that either can't or (in the interest of profit) shouldn't be open.

Hardware manufacturers have very little that sets them apart from each other. Their biggest concern is that the driver source code would give away how the hardware works and therefore would show their competitors how to implement their technologies.

Let the hardware manufacturers develop their binary only modules. It's better than what we've seen with the wireless market...which is what we would likely see if we started spouting "show us your source code" to all of the hardware manufacturers that choose to make binary only modules...

And of course the other reason for a binary module is to charge for it (like is being done with Linuxant's DriverLoader) but...just like anything else worthwhile, there is already an open sourced equivalent under development.

Internationalization was the major reason that made me switch to Gnome.

Thanks to im-ja I can switch freely between European (Brazilian Portuguese) and Japanese input in any GTK app, something I could do only in Emacs. Gnome-terminal can work with any encoding and switch them at runtime.

I'm hooked up with my brother, my friends and his friends. Granted it's not ideal for obscure searching, but it's the best we can do while still flying under the radar, so to speak.

Besides, I wouldn't trust my friend's friend's friend's friend's friend that you never met and whose name you don't know as a source to download from. That's what gets people into trouble for using Kazaa/whatever.

I believe this is the right place to throw in a plug to PHPWeather. It's a parser for METAR files, the ones typically sent out from airports. This way, you can have your own page display the actual weather at the nearest airport.

Have a look at Ventus Vigor, where it is used (along with other great news from the wind power business). It's amazing how many countries they have weather data from...

This "grey area" exists because there is no clearly defined boundary defining the seperation between the kernel and the drivers. Modules are parts of the kernel which have not been linked yet. When they're required, they are loaded and linked with the kernel.

The fact that Linus states that there is no exception must worry a lot of companies out there who are producing binary drivers for Linux E.g. nVidia, or SciTech (Who started the LKML thread, after all!) Are nVidia's kernel modules under the GPL? If the possibility exists that they are then I would expect them to suddenly get cold feet over Linux.

If the kernel had a proper boundary with E.g. a set of API's that the kernel and drivers can use to communicate with each other then it would help to solve the issue of what is and isn't "the kernel". For example in Syllable drivers are ELF images which are loaded by the kernel ELF loader. The drivers are loaded under the kernels memory space but there is a very well defined API between the two, and a very clear seperation between them. Under this model I can argue that the kernel is actually being linked to the driver, so the driver can be under any licence while the kernel remains under the GPL. There is no "cross pollenation" between the driver and the kernel. Which is a good thing IMHO, if it avoids issues like the ones being raised on the LKML.

Check out the 'modules' program at modules.sourceforge.net. It makes it fairly easy to switch between versions of any program you like (and choose to set up with modules).

There's an excellent graphical frontend for giFT: Apollon, which uses the qt libraries. After using it, even kazaalite seems confusing and bloated!

On the other hand, I've had troubles connecting to the OpenFT network (read: I cannot connect). Perhaps it's just me...

Anyway, the links:

1. giFT, the daemon
2. giFT-FastTrack, the plugin
3. Apollon, the frontend

There's an excellent graphical frontend for giFT: Apollon, which uses the qt libraries. After using it, even kazaalite seems confusing and bloated!

On the other hand, I've had troubles connecting to the OpenFT network (read: I cannot connect). Perhaps it's just me...

Anyway, the links:

1. giFT, the daemon
2. giFT-FastTrack, the plugin
3. Apollon, the frontend

Paul Graham's ideas have undergone a lot of improvements. Some of the best improvements and tweaks have been implemented by the SpamBayes project. Their Outlook plugin makes Outlook the best spam solution that I have seen (better than SpamAssasin).

I don't know if it will help, but you can vote for the bug to improve Mozilla's spam algorithm.

Paul Graham's ideas have undergone a lot of improvements. Some of the best improvements and tweaks have been implemented by the SpamBayes project. Their Outlook plugin makes Outlook the best spam solution that I have seen (better than SpamAssasin).

I don't know if it will help, but you can vote for the bug to improve Mozilla's spam algorithm.

Looks like there are some windows clients: http://gift.sourceforge.net/clients.php

So, as I understand it, you should be able to load Sunbird into Thunderbird as an extension.

And that's definitely good enough, as long as the integration is as simple as running a simple setup program. We definitely don't want to force users to hook it together manually.

The sad state of affairs in this area is very disheartening. We do have one complete, polished PIM suite (Evolution) and one that's shaping up to be just as good (Kontakt) but this is one area where we need something cross-platform, because most organizations have multiple desktop OS's around, and they all have to interoperate. What do you do when you want a PIM suite that runs everywhere? Well, there's Glow, but it's only at its beginning stages of development, and it's subject to Sun's stubborn refusal to fontconfig-ize Java so the display will look like crap for a long time. There's a project to connect Outlook to open source, and I hope they manage to pull it off, but this is Microsoft's home turf so it'll be an uphill battle.

Firebird and Sunbird are the free world's best hope for an open source, cross-platform, professional-quality PIM suite. That's the one that we'll hook up the open source groupware servers to. Why aren't IBM, Sun, Novell/Ximian/SuSE, et al pouring resources into this? Outlook must be taken down.

Don't forget StreamRipper. It saves shoutcast streams to your hard drive and names the mp3 accordingly and knows when to start/end the song so you leave it running overnight on your favorite shoutcast station and in the morning you have a bunch of mp3s that sound perfect.

I use it with winamp, im not sure if it supports other players.. and i just noticed theres a streamripper32 (search google) that looks like a stand-alone version of streamripper that doesnt require winamp

Like if I get halfway through an HTML message and decide I need it in plain text or vice versa.

giFToxic is a Gtk2 frontend (development seems to have stalled); giFT and giFT-FastTrack are needed to use it with FastTrack.

giFToxic is a Gtk2 frontend (development seems to have stalled); giFT and giFT-FastTrack are needed to use it with FastTrack.

1. One Wire Weather station from AAG.
   
2. Excellent free software to run it.
   
3. gnuplot to plot the results.
   
4. Post the information to The Weather Underground
   

TAFs (as forecasts) may be accessed here.
METARs (as reports) there.
The only thing you have to know is the four letter ICAO location of your closest airport.

Go there to find it out, and then... you'll have to decypher the stuff. Have fun !

I know a PHP package that does it quite well.

"Actually, it's in his info at the top of his post"

Yeah, thanks. I don't know what to call that text, as it's kind'a like a .sig, but not a .sig. And no, I have slashdot set to filter stuff to.

Here's a link to the best distributed publishing system around.

It's a bit like a cross between bittorrent and freenet. The data bandwidth multiplies virus-like the more people are downloading something, so it's like bittorrent where the most popular files get the most people serving them. It's also bittorrent-like, in that it works well in the immediate aftermath of publishing something, and gradually slows down as time passes.

It's like freenet, in that anybody can publish anonymously*, though. Get connected, setup a channel, and broadcast the public keys. People can sign-up to your channel, and then they automatically download anything signed with your key.

* so long as a significant percentage of the nodes aren't controlled or monitored by an adversary, but still deniable because you can't prove that someone didn't receive the file from a node that you didn't know about

So it's also a bit like the million-channel television. You create a channel, as your TV show, your radio show, your blog, your news site, your picture site, and people listen in. If people like your stuff, they get the updates every time you transmit.

Nice system.

Even if you don't want to run a climate model, try putting XPlanet on your background, and get the updated cloud images every 3 hours.

It's a great way to stay informed about what's happening weather-wise around you, and you'll be able to watch the weather-forecasts with an "I guessed as much", from being constantly aware of the cloud pictures.

Granted, it's not true forecasting, but you can easily add your data to aggregate with other users at Weather Underground and pull radar data from just about anywhere.

Me? I just like to know what's happening NOW, but it's also pretty handy to know what the temp is in your home "server room".

Tying all this historical data back into longer range forecasts would be fun. I've found TV forecasting to be pretty stale and inaccurate. How many of them have real meteorological degrees anyway?

I could care less, I stopped downloading from it some time ago. Another /.er recommended iRate, which is quite good.

is for some large company (say Yahoo) to have multiple secure front ends to do the transactions for you so there isn't any one main server to DoS.

This proposal sounds REALLY similar to the structure of Freenet.

Overnet (formerly eDonkey)
Games, Software, Keygens, Cracks, anything you can think of, just a little slow at beginning of download, but after awhile, downloads from over 100 sources at a time.

DC++
Games, Software, Keygens, Cracks, anything you can think of, just a little harder to use and overall slower, unless you use the 1stleg hublist (http://www.1stleg.com/PublicHubList.config)

Soulseek
Mainly for music. Search for artists, select lots of tracks, leave on overnight and PRESTO! Instant GIGABYTES of music.

BitTorrent
Use other sites to search for files, and download with this software.


That's all I can think of right now, but that should get you started.

Mozilla has been my favorite browsing and e-mail platform for years, and now with Thunderbird, everything just gets better and better.

I wish Mozilla had a console-mode project, a la Links. It would make my world perfect! :-D

hotwayd lets you access a hotmail account through any mail client on linux. What it is is a local POP3 server that translates the POP requests into Microsoft's Hotmail protocol.

At the lab where I'm working, we've been using Linux robots (ActivMedia Pioneer 2) for years. Linux actually came pre-installed on them (the only option). We've even been developing a bunch of Linux tools for robots.

try This Link instead it actually works.

JFMILLER

Movies: RottenTomatoes, imdb, and MetaCritic have saved me dozens of hours of time I might have wasted on crap (like Matrix Revolutions, or TimeLine).

Books: Amazon, despite its evils (patents/privacy), is a very nice filter (with a few shills and idiot-reviewers). I [ab]use amazon as a filter, and then buy them cheaper new or used.

News: Popular Daily News Tidbits, Blogdex, Daypop, and slashdot.

Music: iRATE radio, and word of mouth. Need more Collaborative Filtering in this area to root out the Clearchannels/RIAAs function as a giant pusher of "cool"

Ads (aka: mental engineering): I use PopFile to filter SPAM, and Privoxy to filter out slow-loading, privacy-invading, all-around-annoying ADS. I'm still missing a proxy for my eyeballs in the real world. Soooon. :)

Cheap Products: Not a quality filter exactly, but a quantity filter: PriceWatch, PriceGrabber, Froogle, Anand's Hot Deals ...

Phew, that's a lot of linkage. Anyway, I couldn't function without these and other filters; I'd really be info overloaded.

Collaborative filtering in general has a very bright future IMO.

--

Movies: RottenTomatoes, imdb, and MetaCritic have saved me dozens of hours of time I might have wasted on crap (like Matrix Revolutions, or TimeLine).

Books: Amazon, despite its evils (patents/privacy), is a very nice filter (with a few shills and idiot-reviewers). I [ab]use amazon as a filter, and then buy them cheaper new or used.

News: Popular Daily News Tidbits, Blogdex, Daypop, and slashdot.

Music: iRATE radio, and word of mouth. Need more Collaborative Filtering in this area to root out the Clearchannels/RIAAs function as a giant pusher of "cool"

Ads (aka: mental engineering): I use PopFile to filter SPAM, and Privoxy to filter out slow-loading, privacy-invading, all-around-annoying ADS. I'm still missing a proxy for my eyeballs in the real world. Soooon. :)

Cheap Products: Not a quality filter exactly, but a quantity filter: PriceWatch, PriceGrabber, Froogle, Anand's Hot Deals ...

Phew, that's a lot of linkage. Anyway, I couldn't function without these and other filters; I'd really be info overloaded.

Collaborative filtering in general has a very bright future IMO.

--

So basically a TiVo (or similar, since TiVo apparently adds ads now) built into a TV, then?

Or maybe you should get a TV capture card and run furious_tv. That's what I did.

Yes, I'm getting tired of spending money on college books that get more revisions and updates than an open source project. You know, the ones that release a new version after every trivial change?

Fortunately, there are a few really interesting technologies that have received surprisingly little attention, but which I believe point the way toward Linux overtaking Microsoft, and perhaps even Apple on the desktop:

• Dashboard
  This is a wonderful idea where a "dashboard" essentially acts as a memory augmentation tool. It watches what you are doing and presents information it thinks might be relevant. For example, if you are chatting with someone on IRC, it will look for information about that person and present it to you (such as their name, homepage, recent blog entries etc). Applications can support it by sending it "clue packets" to alert it to what it might want to pay attention to.
• Zero Install
  This software essentially eliminates the process of information by mapping web-servers to the filesystem, and combining this with a fast local cache. If your software relies on another piece of software, it can just refer to its binary or libraries on this "web" filesystem, and the appropriate files will be downloaded transparently. The next time you need them, they will be cached. It is infinitely cooler than DEBs or RPMs, and very flexible indeed.
• Gnome Storage
  This project blurs the line between filesystems and databases, creating much more flexibility than is possible with more conventional filesystems. This is particularly powerful when combined with Zero Install. Microsoft is also moving in this direction with their WinFS that will be part of Longhorn.

I'd use Kopete instead. Or, I'd DOWNLOAD and COMPILE the appropriate libraries. Ohh, it's sooooo hard.

You're writing a fucking operating system, 0x1337. Surely you can download KDE libraries!?

For burning anything (audio CDs, data CDs, mixed CDs, DVDs, eMovix projects...) K3b is king. Never found a better burning frontend (including on Windows).

Don't worry about burning stuff under Linux, that problem seems solved for the time being, which is way cool.

1. Here's the catch, open source development models work because they are informal, ...

LOL! Most OSS projects I've seen are very formal and well organized when compared to closed corporate ones. (Corporate meaning mostly built for internal use or for specific tasks, I take it?) This is not always the case since some closed ones are run with a high degree of riggor while some OSS is sloppy. Overall, I typically like the results -- including documentation -- that come out of OSS while I'm usually disapointed by the

In either case OSS or closed both have to deal with people and how to motivate them. OSS methods can work within a company, and I've found that if you just do something, people will use it if it suits them while if you do nothing, the status quo will not change.

1. ...
2. because their is no pressure other than that of your respected peers.

This applies to both OSS and closed software. Some people thrive on appreciation, while others really don't care.

The 'scratch an itch' motivation of OSS can also motivate people, though not always to the levels that you'd expect. One project I am astounded has not gotten more help is vb2Py. Vb2Py converts Visual Basic applications into Python programs, meaning you can move your VB and Access users over to any platform Python supports -- and change out the database back end in the process. The main developer even has a web based converter to demo the program so you don't even have to set it up!

Vb2Py is something that has both geek apeal and corporate snaz, though the forums have petered out. I'd desperately like to get folks away from monolythic MS Access MDB files and toward a more reliable environment...yet, there is little real traffic on the well designed and well thought out web site. Why????

While I'm at it, also take a look at InstallBase, a very nice cross-platform GUI installation program. I'm using it now to automate a network and to slowly introduce OSS to the others on the contract.

The 'scratch an itch' motivation of OSS can also motivate people, though not always to the levels that you'd expect. One project I am astounded has not gotten more help is vb2Py. Vb2Py converts Visual Basic applications into Python programs, meaning you can move your VB and Access users over to any platform Python supports -- and change out the database back end in the process. The main developer even has a web based converter to demo the program so you don't even have to set it up!

Vb2Py is something that has both geek apeal and corporate snaz, though the forums have petered out. I'd desperately like to get folks away from monolythic MS Access MDB files and toward a more reliable environment...yet, there is little real traffic on the well designed and well thought out web site. Why????

While I'm at it, also take a look at InstallBase, a very nice cross-platform GUI installation program. I'm using it now to automate a network and to slowly introduce OSS to the others on the contract.

The 'scratch an itch' motivation of OSS can also motivate people, though not always to the levels that you'd expect. One project I am astounded has not gotten more help is vb2Py. Vb2Py converts Visual Basic applications into Python programs, meaning you can move your VB and Access users over to any platform Python supports -- and change out the database back end in the process. The main developer even has a web based converter to demo the program so you don't even have to set it up!

Vb2Py is something that has both geek apeal and corporate snaz, though the forums have petered out. I'd desperately like to get folks away from monolythic MS Access MDB files and toward a more reliable environment...yet, there is little real traffic on the well designed and well thought out web site. Why????

While I'm at it, also take a look at InstallBase, a very nice cross-platform GUI installation program. I'm using it now to automate a network and to slowly introduce OSS to the others on the contract.

The 'scratch an itch' motivation of OSS can also motivate people, though not always to the levels that you'd expect. One project I am astounded has not gotten more help is vb2Py. Vb2Py converts Visual Basic applications into Python programs, meaning you can move your VB and Access users over to any platform Python supports -- and change out the database back end in the process. The main developer even has a web based converter to demo the program so you don't even have to set it up!

Vb2Py is something that has both geek apeal and corporate snaz, though the forums have petered out. I'd desperately like to get folks away from monolythic MS Access MDB files and toward a more reliable environment...yet, there is little real traffic on the well designed and well thought out web site. Why????

While I'm at it, also take a look at InstallBase, a very nice cross-platform GUI installation program. I'm using it now to automate a network and to slowly introduce OSS to the others on the contract.

You can partition the drives from the OS X installer CD, but not without erasing everything (Some commercial software probably does that, try searching google)You still can plug the iBook to your own PC through ethernet to back everything up prior to partitionning.

As for your sister wanting to learn linux for *political* reasons: I've been myself confronted to a similar situation: that is, I'm currently abroad without my much beloved mac, so had to buy a PC, with windows on it. I loathe Microsoft, but I don't have access to anything else than dial-up, so I can't even download linux to give it a try! (+ I'm not sure I could manage to use linux without a bit of outside help). So I decided to find a middle ground: leave windows installed, and replace as much Microsoft software I could. Outlook got trashed for Thunderbird, Explorer for Firebird, MSN for GAIM, and so on...

My point is, open source is cool and all, but I'm not sure it's good to have people give up on *usability* and ease of use just because the OS is GPL'd. (OS X is stil so much better than linux it makes no sense to trash it for linux) Mostly because this adds a somewhat disconforting "sect" aspect to the open source community. And being looked upon as a bunch of crazy fanatics is not so good (I'm a mac fan, I know what I'm talking about!!). And also because if she tries linux while it's still not easy enough for her (she's not a geek / nerd, you told), then she just might grow very frustrated with it, trash it, and never give it a shot ever again.

If you're not familiar with OS X, what's good about it is its versatility. If you want to use it as a grandma-OS, you can. Buy mac, open case, switch on, there you have it. (I like to tell my friends, "you can use Mac OS X when drunk.")
But you can also use it as an excessively geeky OS if you want to. They give you a nice terminal app, and it's plain-vanilla open-sourced BSD behind. X-11 is installed by default in panther. Fink is the direct equivalent of apt-get, you can use it with or without a GUI... Makes installing the GIMP easy, among other things. Darwin Ports does the same kind of job. A *lot* of open-source software has been ported (mPlayer / mozilla apps / open office / etc...), too.
You can also boot OS X without the Aqua interface ("evil" because non-GPL'd) and install gnome (said to be tricky). With that many open source tools & software, you're in open-source/UNIX-land alright, imho. And if you grow tired of it, you can still go back to plain OS X. If she wants to try linux, then she should, but I have a very hard time figuring how replacing OS X by a linux desktop would be better for her in the end. (the steep price of apple hardware being mostly justified by the OS).

Anyhow, I wish you -and her, mostly- good luck! :)

Honestly, I'm surprised the Linux geeks don't hail this more than they do. A lot of the Neuros stuff is open, such that a completely independent project like the NDBM is possible. So if I, the loyal Slashdot geek, don't like a particular feature of the sync manager, or wish there was a particular super-cool option like playlist rating - do it!

No need to whine to the company and hope, blessed hope, that they hear your pitiful cry and find a big enough business case to pay attention to it. Just do it yourself.

Do any other portable media projects have this? Ogg or otherwise?

Troy, who's still wishing for a PDA+20/40GB hard drive...

From the sourceforge page :

Punica is a selfbuilt, Linux powered drink mixer.

Apparently, this machine was able to build itself. I see that recursive compilation appears to have taken a step up in the world.

What about Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther)? The dock can be autohidden, and with "expose," the ability to run almost most standard GNU/UNIX apps (as a Debian user, you will be thrilled to know that the dpkg system--including apt-get--is available for Mac OS X through the Fink Project), and increased performance over previous versions (even on your old G3), it might be just the thing you need. Unfortunately virtual desktops are not part of the standard Mac OS, although there are many free utilities to do this, which would provide quite a bit of screen space.

Of course, there is that pesky $129 price tag ($69 educational), but if you hunt around (like ebay) you can probably find it cheaper.

Also, although none of those old iBooks came with VGA out, some did come with composite video out, which you might be able to hook up to a TV for some extra screen real estate, if it comes to that.

Not super easy to find on google since there are so many other meanings for PTP.

The one you want is Picture Transfer Protocol.

http://ptp.sourceforge.net/

Way off topic but how could that wonderful game
xbill be updated to include Darl and company.

a) Just replace the Bill icon with Darl and the windows icon with UnixWare
b) as a) with more blood
c) add Darl who will "bless" systems. Blessed systems cannot be taken over by Bill but the presence of "blessed" systems result in a decrease in score.

May I direct you to Freenet? Strictly speaking, people are "in charge" (the developers), but the whole principle is that pretty much anything goes on Freenet - it's designed to be perfectly anonymous (when coupled with the correct browser), so material posted on Freenet can't be forced off.

No, seriously...

Bring up your favorite distro. The important bits of immediate concern are Squid and syslog. Prevent direct access to the net from the client machines and force them to go through the proxy using a GPO in ActiveDirectory. Configure Squid how you like, but best to at least add the capability to block certain sites and prevent certain file types from being downloaded:

acl hosts_deny dstdomain "/etc/squid/blocked_sites.txt"
acl filetypes urlpath_regex -i "/etc/squid/filetypes.txt"

http_access deny filetypes
http_access deny hosts_deny

List the domains to block in /etc/squid/blocked_sites.txt. List the file extentions to block in /etc/squid/filetypes.txt in regex fashion (something like \.(exe)$ to block .exe files). Not a complete fix, but a good quick way to safeguard web access.

Now run over to sourceforge and grab ntsyslog. This handy tool exports your Event Viewer logs to a remote syslog server. It installs as a service and it's a cinche to setup. Stick is on your domain controller. On your Linux box add a line like the following to syslog.conf (for sysklogd):

user.alert -/var/log/domain.log

By default, ntsyslog uses user.alert, but you can change that to whatever you like. Also make sure your syslog is configured to receive messages from remote clients. Now, in your default domain policy on the domain controller configure it to audit logon events as well as account logon events, successes and failures for both.

Now you've got web access managed by a central proxy with full logging and minimal blocking abilities and all logon success/failures being reported to Event Viewer on the DC and forwarded to the syslog. If you want to see who is logged into a machine at any given time you can either quickly parse the logs or use something like NetUsers or LoggedOn.

Popular local opinion says that you're likely to have more problems/attacks with/against your Windows server. Having your Event Viewer messages forwarded means you can diagnose problems in the event something happanes to that server. You'll probably want to at least MRTG the Linux box to get an idea of bandwidth usage too. Then enjoy whippin' up your own set of shell scripts to play with your logs (hint: real-time monitoring)!

Ok, first of all I know many small firms that use AOL (although it is usually AOL Broadband), second of all AOL does a lot of good for the net. AOL scans every email for viruses and doesn't let any through that has one, but rather they notify the sender, they also have great spam filters. Its very user friendly, and their DSL uses PPPoE so its easy to connect to through a router and then the client machines can jsut pop up AOL and connect throguh the LAN connection which is free (yes it is, i've done it on computers, and yes more then one person from the same acocunt can be using aol at the same time). It helps stop the spread of email worms, does excellent spam filtering, and gives the user every means of modern communication that he/she may need, at the tips of their fingers. Yes its not the most slashdotty type service where people use slackware simply becuase its hard to set up (not trying to start a war here, but thats what it sometimes seems like, where as debian, or gentoo in my opinion are better and easier to set up) AOL is no worse then MSN, except that AOL tries to do some good on the net and are very innovative. BTW, all kinds of music and media are available on AOL too at no cost. It realy is pretty nice and impressive, most of my family uses it. I dont use it, but most users love it. Oh yea AOL also are the nice guys that opened up the TOC protocol after it was the most popular protocol, unlike MSN who forced their protocol on users to make it one of the most popular then locked out everyone else. AOL also supports open source as is seen by the AOL Server and the fact that all(or most) of their servers run Linux. And if you IM ZolaOnAOL (that is AOL's chat bot, it was made by AOL and it isnt jsut some hackers bot) and ask her, "What is the best operating system in the world?" , She'll promptly answer that Linux is. Why are you guys so against a corporation that supports the Open Source movement (true they dont have a linux client, but thats because of the lack of market, it wouldnt really help anything if they did, through the other things that they are doing though, it is helping us) They hate MSN jsut as much as anyone else. We need to support corporations that support us and open protocols/software. Everyone needs to open their eyes. Just my 2 cents.