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Google coverage of my area won't be older than google maps itself!

Finally, I can see past my own childhood!

W-what do you mean they never updated it... again? Oh. Okay.

There is a disagreement between OS and Google on what Google's licensing terms mean. Currently this has prevented the use of OS map layers on google (though they are used on Streetmap and bing. So I think it unlikely that google maps will use this soon.

I have no idea who is right about the interpretation of the terms of service, but it is preventing google's use of open sources OD maps

It should be noted that the nuclear armoury is based only 15 miles from Scotland's most populous area, the city of Glasgow -- which in the politics of the union is totally fine so long as it's nowhere near English cities. The system has had multiple failures and there have been attempted coverups of accidents at Coulport (where the weapons are stored). The Royal Navy also stores the decrepit and rusting nuclear submarines at Rosyth, a mere 10 miles from Edinburgh, our capital city. Again the thought of storing these at Southampton or Portsmouth would not be considered because it's too close to English who don't want rusting nuclear vessels in their backyard.

Senior MOD officials have been on the back foot in this debate even though most UK military assets have already been removed from Scotland (airbases have been shut and army decimated). Rather like in a divorce where one party tries to remove as many assets as possible before a possible split. The problem with the nuclear armoury is that none of the other areas of the UK want it and it would be political suicide for an English MP to accept into their area.

Scotland, if the vote is YES next month, would be a small country and it would not be right to have nuclear arms. Scotland wants to set an example by not having them on our soil. Scotland has only been invaded by one country in the last 1000 years, it's a country to our south. Scots like the English (this is not an anti-English referendum) - we just don't like the arseholes in Westminster telling us what to do (neither does large areas of England as it happens)

To learn more about the Scottish independence, see The Wee Blue Book

you are spot on sir....

It should be noted that the nuclear armoury is based only 15 miles from Scotland's most populous area, the city of Glasgow -- which in the politics of the union is totally fine so long as it's nowhere near English cities. The system has had multiple failures and there have been attempted coverups of accidents at Coulport (where the weapons are stored). The Royal Navy also stores the decrepit and rusting nuclear submarines at Rosyth, a mere 10 miles from Edinburgh, our capital city. Again the thought of storing these at Southampton or Portsmouth would not be considered because it's too close to English who don't want rusting nuclear vessels in their backyard.

Senior MOD officials have been on the back foot in this debate even though most UK military assets have already been removed from Scotland (airbases have been shut and army decimated). Rather like in a divorce where one party tries to remove as many assets as possible before a possible split. The problem with the nuclear armoury is that none of the other areas of the UK want it and it would be political suicide for an English MP to accept into their area.

Scotland, if the vote is YES next month, would be a small country and it would not be right to have nuclear arms. Scotland wants to set an example by not having them on our soil. Scotland has only been invaded by one country in the last 1000 years, it's a country to our south. Scots like the English (this is not an anti-English referendum) - we just don't like the arseholes in Westminster telling us what to do (neither does large areas of England as it happens)

To learn more about the Scottish independence, see The Wee Blue Book

you are spot on sir....

The Royal Navy also stores the decrepit and rusting nuclear submarines at Rosyth, a mere 10 miles from Edinburgh, our capital city. Again the thought of storing these at Southampton or Portsmouth would not be considered because it's too close to English who don't want rusting nuclear vessels in their backyard.

There are 7 nuclear hulks stored at Rosyth, the Royal navy has decommissioned 17 nuclear subs so far. the rest are in Devonport. Oh and Barrow-in-Furness are campaiging to get one of the hulks (Dreadnought) back from Rosyth.

Scotland has only been invaded by one country in the last 1000 years, it's a country to our south.

This is a really stupid, pointless non fact. If you're going to pick an arbritrary period to greet about invasions you should at least know what you're talking about. When making points about marine safety you draw a line at the Ttanic and work up. Norway was in possetion of large chunks of Scotland 1000 years ago, since then the Irish have raiding bits of the west coast, france invaded scotland in support of an Englishmans claim to the throne and the main reason we're not all Spanish, French or German is because of the existence of the UK

Scots like the English (this is not an anti-English referendum) - we just don't like the arseholes in Westminster telling us what to do (neither does large areas of England as it happens)

I don't like the arseholes in Holyrood (releases biggest mass murdered in scottish history, removes corroboration requirements from evidence, falls over itself to allow Trump to destroy an SSSI for no reason, creates a police force that has a higher stop and search rate than the Met and the NYPD and has more routinely armed officers on the beat than the Met). Can I add a write in option for an independent Fife?

It should be noted that the nuclear armoury is based only 15 miles from Scotland's most populous area, the city of Glasgow -- which in the politics of the union is totally fine so long as it's nowhere near English cities. The system has had multiple failures and there have been attempted coverups of accidents at Coulport (where the weapons are stored). The Royal Navy also stores the decrepit and rusting nuclear submarines at Rosyth, a mere 10 miles from Edinburgh, our capital city. Again the thought of storing these at Southampton or Portsmouth would not be considered because it's too close to English who don't want rusting nuclear vessels in their backyard.

Senior MOD officials have been on the back foot in this debate even though most UK military assets have already been removed from Scotland (airbases have been shut and army decimated). Rather like in a divorce where one party tries to remove as many assets as possible before a possible split. The problem with the nuclear armoury is that none of the other areas of the UK want it and it would be political suicide for an English MP to accept into their area.

Scotland, if the vote is YES next month, would be a small country and it would not be right to have nuclear arms. Scotland wants to set an example by not having them on our soil. Scotland has only been invaded by one country in the last 1000 years, it's a country to our south. Scots like the English (this is not an anti-English referendum) - we just don't like the arseholes in Westminster telling us what to do (neither does large areas of England as it happens)

To learn more about the Scottish independence, see The Wee Blue Book

It should be noted that the nuclear armoury is based only 15 miles from Scotland's most populous area, the city of Glasgow -- which in the politics of the union is totally fine so long as it's nowhere near English cities. The system has had multiple failures and there have been attempted coverups of accidents at Coulport (where the weapons are stored). The Royal Navy also stores the decrepit and rusting nuclear submarines at Rosyth, a mere 10 miles from Edinburgh, our capital city. Again the thought of storing these at Southampton or Portsmouth would not be considered because it's too close to English who don't want rusting nuclear vessels in their backyard.

Senior MOD officials have been on the back foot in this debate even though most UK military assets have already been removed from Scotland (airbases have been shut and army decimated). Rather like in a divorce where one party tries to remove as many assets as possible before a possible split. The problem with the nuclear armoury is that none of the other areas of the UK want it and it would be political suicide for an English MP to accept into their area.

Scotland, if the vote is YES next month, would be a small country and it would not be right to have nuclear arms. Scotland wants to set an example by not having them on our soil. Scotland has only been invaded by one country in the last 1000 years, it's a country to our south. Scots like the English (this is not an anti-English referendum) - we just don't like the arseholes in Westminster telling us what to do (neither does large areas of England as it happens)

To learn more about the Scottish independence, see The Wee Blue Book

Over the past two years ther have been a huge amount of archaeology excavation work in the Stonehenge area. Last year it was mostly close to the henge itself.

This year the excavations have been off to the North West up the A344 closer to Airmans Corner

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=412500&Y=142500&A=Y&Z=120

Even this article is published in the "Daily Wail" I suspect there is a lot more details to emerge over the coming months.

The roman signal stations are still on the Ordnance Survey maps in Perthshire with signal stations some 1km to 3 km apart on hill tops. This link shows a signal station proximity to a camp with a much bigger fort to the west. infact, this area of Scotland is littered with roman remains because they had to exit in a big hurry regularly as the Scots kicked italian ass on a regular basis.

they also had signal stations on the Antonine Wall which was some 100km north of the famous Hadrians Wall.

So this is very much email in the 122AD to 250AD century - although, it didn't help the romans much. they had too much physical infrastructure that was a big disadvantage in the guerrilla tactics of the Scots and thus were not flexible enough to change. There are lots of parallels with the US tactics in Iraq and one wanders whether the tacticians have been researching their roman history well enough before deploying assets in the middle east.

Indeed.

My commute home takes me over a bridge which is 1.8 metres wide. Last night the traffic was queueing back half a mile from the bridge. I cycled past the queue to find a bunch of polis trying to deal with a truck and trailer that were too wide for the bridge and too big to turn in the road.

I thought as I watched them, 'ah, another victory for Tom Tom!'

I must admit I just had to look up MapQuest as I'd never heard of it. I live in the UK and over here services such as Streetmap and Multimap are probably the most popular 'legacy' services. I wouldn't be surprised if Google Maps was the most popular these days though.

I've been using the My Maps functionality of Google Maps quite a lot recently to keep private maps of where my friends live etc. - especially useful for those I don't visit very often as it works like a geo-tagged address book. I can certainly see myself slowly adding more mapplets to my standard google maps view as this feature evolves.

(Slightly off-topic, I absolutely love the Customise your route functionality Google have recently added)

They also have a uk street map. However the usabily of their map is lower than that of google and yahoo. I'd like also to point out streetmap.co.uk which uses the offical OS maps. It has easily the highest quality (not to mention it looks identical to any OS map you'd buy in a shop) but presumablity is the most up to date and accurate.

1) Doesn't work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4867880. stm
(signs telling people not to park where it floods - people still don't move their cars even when the locals tell them it will flood)

2) Why? There are plenty of good roads. The surface quality of British roads is deteriorating (and due to our below freezing nights and above freezing days in winter they have always suffered a lot from frost damage in winter anyway) but, on the whole, so long as you stay more than about 75cm from the curb or edge of the road where there is no pavement (sidewalk) the surface is usually perfectly servicable. (I cycle almost everywhere and so long as you keep of the cycle routes and cycle lanes and on the road proper - cycle routes are usually gravel tracks and cycle lanes are usually the 1m of surface right at the edge of the road where potholes breed - you can easily and comfortably cycle at 30km/h (20mph) on 22mm tyres at 120psi - hills permitting :-) )[1]

For all intents and purposes, you can get from anywhere to anywhere in England on metalled roads. (I'd guess that's true for the whole of the UK but I don't really know Scotland outside of the major cities.

[1] The westbound carriageway of the Euston Road outside Kings Cross is the exception that proves this rule
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=530 318&Y=182951&A=Y&Z=1

Tim.

You never said a truer word - it's an appalingly bad road that I have the dubious pleasure of driving occassionally....

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=397500&y=4 96500&z=3&sv=crackpot&st=3&tl=Crackpot,+North+York shire+%5BCity/Town/Village%5D&searchp=newsearch.sr f&mapp=newmap.srf

Incidently, one of the many New Yorks is only about 15km (10 miles) away:
  http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=524 500&Y=355500&A=Y&Z=5
(Because of the stupid way they create the arrows there's no way to get it to point at the village instead of being on top of it)

And while the famous Washington is up in the North East on the Tyne and Wear, there's also one down near the south coast. Neither of these are particularly close (for English towns) to Boston etc.

Boston's not all that far from Cambridge (pretty much due north)

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=534 660&Y=344265&A=Y&Z=5

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=545 000&Y=295000&A=Y&Z=9

Tim.

Boston's not all that far from Cambridge (pretty much due north)

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=534 660&Y=344265&A=Y&Z=5

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=545 000&Y=295000&A=Y&Z=9

Tim.

BTW, I hope you realise that we do this not as an evil trick, but as a small gesture of assistance towards our fellow men & women. The nice thing is that the inital pangalactic gargleblaster effect of your first ale experience doesn't go away... so far, anyway, after 20 years' experimentation. (I'm just about to tuck into my regular evening pint of Spitfire to see whether it's happened yet :)

Who's complaining? The software works remarkably well and is probably one of the most innovative web applications ever. The fact that it requires no client side program and that it works so incredibly smooth is what makes it amazing...

While nobody doubts that Google Maps is good,its hardly innovative,both Multimap and Street Map have implemented long ago what google maps does.The only difference is the others work only in UK (and Europe)and offer no API.

Looking at a map of Upper Street I notice that my mates' flat is on a street that's about 700m from Angel tube station, so hopefully in the zone. k00l, I can top their fancy central-London 2Mb DSL at last! (I live out in the sticks & miles from the CO so 512K is the best I can get unless/until WiMax takes off.)

He is the C.L.I.T. commander!
And also a well-to-do street in Kensington...
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=526457&y=1 79615&z=1&sv=526250,179750&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.s rf&searchp=newsearch.srf

Streetmap has aerial photos as well. This is where I live.

Streetmap has aerial photos as well. This is where I live.

Map

But I can get this sort of thing: Where I live in London without any trouble.

Trying to drive around Pittsburgh is interesting because the many rivers and valeys and abrupt hills make straight roads or grids improbable and expensive. The saying in the Burgh is "Sure, you can see it, but you can't get there from here." This means that printed maps aren't always the best way to get information as they tend to be confusing.

That's not a property of Pittsburgh, it's a property of American maps. I own a number of street maps of European cities, and some of American cities (but none of Pittsburgh). The only thing that makes the US maps even vaguely usable is the grid system, so you tend to not really need maps at all.

For an idea of the difference, compare the garbage produced by mapquest to the model of clarity produced by streetmap.co.uk.

There is an island of the north west coast of Scotland called Gruinard Island. In 1942 the Governent carried out Anthrax Tests there. In 1990 it was 'declared safe' but I wouldnt be in a hurry to visit it.

I forgot my favourite site - royalmail.com. They recently released a new cackier version, which no longer supported people who have visual disabilities, screen readers etc. When challenged on this they claimed the content they provided was too complex for that.

Too complex. They're the bloody post office. They sell stamps, and they deliver things (if you're lucky). Maybe they also sell boxes to put things in.

Anyway, in the US, I wanted to know how much a stamp was to send a card to a friend in Israel. The friends I was staying with just told me to go to the US Postal Service website. I had my wifi iPaq, so I thought I'd try it on that for a laugh. It was cramped, but it worked, and I had the right stamp value in about a minute or so.

Just to amuse myself, I tried the same exercise on the royal mail site. After a lengthy delay, PocketIE put up an error saying it was unable to display a web site with that many frames - it could only display sites with up to 11 frames.

11! And I'm not so sure the limit wasn't actually 19. But having more than 11 frames on your front page is impressively stupid, even for the Royal Mail.

Oh, their latest thing is now you have to register with them to look up a postcode. A postcode! You know, those things they're always moaning that people don't use? Register? Way to raise the barrier! I wonder how many people get to the form, and think "Sod it!" and just chuck the letter/parcel in the postbox with no postcode.

And when I did actually register, what do I find? That they have never heard of anywhere called Wood Green in London. Good job it's not a bloody tube station or anything embarrassingly well known like that, eh?

Ah, I feel better now.

Too many idiots. Not enough comets.

My worst computer accident (which was more scary than actually disasterous) took place when I was a student at a certain university on the Strand in London. The fan in one of the physics department's DECstations had died and as a result the machine was overheating and turning itself off, requiring much fscking.

A fellow student and I offered to change the fan, duly ordering a part from RS Components and borrowing a soldering iron from one of the lab technicians. Job done, we decided to test the machine with the cover off to make sure that everything (still) worked. We turned on the machine. Sparks everywhere. We turned off the machine. Sh*t. Then we noticed that the case was silvered on the inside and that because we hadn't screwed down the motherboard, it was short-circuiting in probably a great many places.

We could see that the fuse was blown and decided that replacing it would be a good idea, hoping that this would be the only problem. We asked the technician for a new fuse. The technician told us that it was an imperial (length) fuse and that fuses like that weren't available any more. He gave us a shiny new metric fuse... that didn't fit in the fuse-holder. So he gave us a new fuse-holder as well... which didn't fit the motherboard. Fortunately, being creative young physics students, we were able to fashion a floating (air-cooled?) fuse assembly with the aid of several paperclips.

Miraculously, the DECstation still worked, and the new fan whirred away happily. It didn't stop the machine crashing though - apparently it hadn't been overheating after all.

And for anyone keen to go looking for Alan's lost cash stash... Chances are it will now be buried under one of Milton Keynes small number of round-a-bout's (join the dots!!!) or being guarded by the bizarre Milton Keynes concrete cows. No wonder Alan couldn't find it again !!

You are right. For all the geographically impaired /.ers:
Bristol is a large city in the UK, as can be seen here.

If you are in the area, and have sufficient curiosity, you can use this map to guide you to the location mentioned above.

DISCLAIMER: it is possible that the UK NIC has the wrong information. It is possible that adversting.co.uk have nothing to do with a.exe (their web server may have been compromised).

Frankly the map sites that serve the USA suck rotten eggs. They are of an utterly inferior when compaired with the quality of the maps you can get in the Great Britain

Yep, by far the best mapping site on the entire internet, serves full resolution digital 1:50,000 scale Landranger data as licensed by the Ordnance Survey for the whole of Great Britain. In addition to this it has half resolution Bartholomew road map data for the whole of Great Britain again, and after than there is also high quality half resolution Bartholomew streetmap data for Greater London. The rest of Great Britain is served with a automatic street level composite of varying quality.

The place to go is http://www.streetmap.co.uk

The Ordnance Survey themselves also serve up maps at a variaty of scales, most noticable a half resolution 1:25,000 version of the Explorer maps.

After that the next best map site on the internet is the ViaMichelin site. This has excellant quality road maps that cover all of western and northern europe, with street level mapping of superior quality to anything that I have seen served up for the USA. However recently they have updated the map browser and made it much less friendly.

Maporama.com. Very good, detailed maps for allot of countries, displays up to 999x999 resolution. Directions routing for Europe only.

Get Australian directions at WhereIs. But the Aussie streetmaps are better on Maporama.

Very cool arial photography on streetmap.co.uk.

In the UK: My vote is for Line Drive on Mapblast for directions, and streetmap.co.uk for er, street-type maps.

Line Drive is surprisingly accurate (to 1/10 mile) if you reset your mileometer at every turning and reference point, and follow the distances. But who does that? (A: me, I'm a navigational klutz and need all the help I can get)... MapKlutz Hint: Do a return journey route too...

...Oh, and MS bought Mapblast, so it sucks now (sorry, forget where I was for a minute!)

In the UK try Streetmap or Multimap. IMHO UK Yahoo maps isn't very good.

However I've just had an extremely painful experience trying to pay the CC. Their website is absolutely atrocious, breaking just about every usability rule you could think of. eg navigation buttons implemented in Java??!! Why, oh why?! And trying to use it in Lynx (or links) - well, forget it. Then the actual navigation itself is completely b0rked. I imagine 90% of people arriving on the front page want either (a) a link to the "pay online now" form, or (b) the phone-number for paying by credit card. I encourage anyone with ten minutes on their hands to visit the above URL and try hunting for those bits of information. No points for getting half-way through completeing the form before realising they're actually trying to REGISTER you (as in, collect personal info) rather than just taking CC details and car registration number.

So I fired off a somewhat ranty complaint using their (equally dreadful) "contact us" stuff. Yes we've got a fancy DHTML form with a font size set unreadbaly small which stops you typing more than a couple of hundred chars. Oh and of course let's waste 70% of the screen real estate on whitespace , pointless graphics etc etc.

Today I got a response back. Of course it's a canned reply - what really put the icing on the cake was that the mail arrived with an attached HTML page (!) called something like "template.109797653-236" !! Have these people never heard of RFC822? I heard a rumour that the IT infrastructure was built by EDS, which might partly explain how utterly, utterly shite the site is.

I have similar feeliongs about the Oyster card - in theory a smart swipeable card is a good idea, and collecting anonymised data on which journeys people actually make is obviously a Good Thing for planning, resource management etc. but why do I get teh feeling that a bureacracy is rolling and, in tune with the evil schemes of Mr Blunkett, is planning to violate all alleged 'civil liberties' BY DEFAULT? If only a few civil servants would lose their pensions when the inevitable review by the EU court of human rights throws out the whole scheme... ah well a man can dream can't he...

I shall also miss the old cardboard tickets when they're finally phased out. Apart from the saddo-anal-retentive thing of keeping old tickets stamped with particular dates (elections, dead royals, and other days of special celebration) they're absolutely perfect roach material. I shall have to return to collecting old club fliers on Saturday mornings...

Evesham are medium-sized UK based

Based in Evesham, specifically. Odd, that :)

I'm in one of the groups mentioned in this article as prime for robotic replacement. Reading it I couldn't help wondering what effect it might have on me. I'm a cycle messenger in london town.
Thinking about it, I suppose not robotic, but computer replacement threatens me most. We're protected by the archaic laws in this country that means that a great deal of legal work, things requiring signatures etc. cannot be done digitally where they may elsewhere in the world. Can't see that lasting forever though. There's also a lot of digital betamax, photo prints etc. media type stuff that needs to be carried that in the forseeable future 99% will be carried digitally. This leaves me with physical goods, a parcel where the good in its physical form (not some kind of data or legal acknowledgement, the amount of cheques I carry is actually shocking) is of value. Clothes for fashion mags, other parcels, swanky city types leaving their wallets in brick lane curry houses. This cuts down the workforce by 90% I suppose if I think of it, but what it does leave is the most skilled 10% to take up the work. I can't see a machine doing my job as far as actually riding about town goes, understanding a map on paper is one thing, riding on a road in real life with mixed traffic, pedestrians etc. is another. I also imagine most city roads to be like londons, that is pretty freeform and quite dangerous not to mention Londons notably insane geography. Maybe a sort of elite hardcore, maybe with an insular culture could be a factor of this new society. A relatively small computer clique who keep technology running globally, a small amount of skilled bikers to navigate the high density city areas (long distance transit seems more liable to automation with vehichle only motorways) and soforth. Small widley distributed groups of people with specific skills may become the way in this new society.
What this means I don't know, maybe you lot have something good to say about it.

There is a strip of metal barrier across the middle of the runway - probably to dissuade use as a dragstrip or to discourage its use by smaller planes. It's pretty impressive to walk right down the centre of an airstrip (the disused terminal is at the Ockham end of the strip, not far from a pretty decent pub).

You can see the strip on this map.

You didn't try hard enough.

The service is currently available in certain areas of Crieff and Campbeltown only.

Try plugging the postcode "PA28 6HU" (which is in Campbeltown) into the form.

You didn't try hard enough.

The service is currently available in certain areas of Crieff and Campbeltown only.

Try plugging the postcode "PA28 6HU" (which is in Campbeltown) into the form.

The BBC article mentions that
"Developers, who include Mitsubishi and Nissan, hope that the new
supersonic plane will have noise levels similar to the Boeing
747. That would mean that it would be able to operate far more widely
than Concorde, which is notoriously noisy." This was also mentioned in
previous news stories about the planned aircraft.

Nothing I've seen, however, explains how they were planning to deal
with the sonic boom.

Or are they just referring to the noise level when in subsonic
operation? In which case, like the Concorde, it could only go
supersonic over water... but then how could it "operate far more
widely" than the Concorde?

Cool - I never realised that the Aussies owned Rotherham, I'd always assumed it was still part of the UK...

Whois

Cue frantic whois entry changes of course.

Streetmap

Curmudgeon

You can contact him here. Doesn't say much though.

The other reason I'm in favour is that Brixton (in South London) has a bad (but deserved) reputation for aggro between the police and the local black population, going back beyond the riots in 1981 (that's the London police's site, by the way - more realistic stuff here.) With CCTV, allegations of brutality can be more easily verified and rascist / thuggish cops thrown in jail, where they belong.

The only negative consequence I can think of is that it's going to increase the price of dope... :(
--
If the good lord had meant me to live in Los Angeles

Apparently you can only get cable modems or ADSL if you live in one of two cities, have a sister called Sue, an even number of vowels in your name and order on a Thursday.

It's not quite that bad - we've just moved to a fairly small town in the south west (here, population ~20K). Faxed an order to Madasafish two weeks ago, BT came round last Friday, I plugged the ADSL into the iBook and it's all working fine.

Given that an 0800-all-the-time ISP is about 15 quid a month, 40 quid for a much faster connection doesn't seem that bad a deal (particularly if you compare it to ISDN).

Granted the situation varies depending on where you are, but I was quite surprised that things went so smoothly given that we're fairly rural.

-dair (having said that, I did order on a Thursday, and I do have two vowels in my name... :-)

CCTV coverage has exploded in the UK in recent years, with mixed results -- crime has fallen in some areas, and the recent bomber was caught partly through the extensive coverage of the area where I live, Brixton. OTOH (a) muggers, drug users & other anti-social types just move away -- eg to the (CCTV free) council estate where I live. The Civil Liberty aspect hasn't really got much attention over here AFAIK -- the police and govt. have their marketing down perfectly ...