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How to Leave a Job on Good Terms?
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working for a small development company for 6 or 7 years. My boss has always been a bit nuts but overall it hasn't been a bad experience. I recently accepted a great job offer for a technology position in a different industry. I gave my boss my notice this week, and while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients. (who, thankfully, also think he is nuts) I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave. Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked, or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
My boss has always been a bit nuts...
Been there...I sympathize.
There is no excuse for this sort of behavior. Period. Next time he tries to do it, confront him. Remember, at this point, he needs you a lot more than you need him.
I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.
You know, strictly speaking, it is his responsibility to find a replacement for your position, not yours. You should remind him of this in no uncertain terms.
Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
Just remember that giving a company notice before you leave is not a requirement...it is a courtesy you are extending as part of a positive professional relationship. Frankly, I'd ask him for a letter of recommendation up front, and if he refuses, or threatens to give you a less than optimal review, you simply do not owe him the courtesy of notice.
In short, don't devalue yourself, and don't let him devalue you, either.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
"Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
:)
:)
Easy. You don't have any losses. You have a job waiting for you.
Stick with it until you said you would. ALWAYS keep to your word especially when leaving an employer. If they want you gone now, they will walk you out of the building.
It is your bosses problem, not yours. This sounds like a me vs you thing. If it is so bad, talk to your HR. The odds are that if everybody knows your boss is nuts, they do to. If they don't know, they want to know.
Do you believe that you are responsible for finding your replacement? I don't understand how they could keep your paycheck if YOU don't find a replacement.
If your boss thinks that he cannot replace you, put some bait in front of him. Ask if they can match an offer or do something to change your work environment. Even if you have no interest in staying, it buys time and allows you to leave with a smile on your face when YOU say no.
Back to the original though. DO NOT QUIT EARLY! You gave your word and it is a small world. It would suck to have this bite you in the ass. In a few weeks it will be over and you will laugh at it.
Oh yea...
You insensitive clod! You have a JOB! You have an OFFER and a JOB! You have a 'soon to be X Boss' that you can &uck with? Quit bitching!
Get over it! Screw with the Boss and have fun. You are leaving, he has no control over you. You have an offer, you don't need his reference. Get prepared for your new career and forget the past.
I am curious what the "different industry" is. Did you take up Hindu?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Otherwise, just be polite, but firm. If he burns bridges, it's his choice. You did your best.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
wtf
Is it just me, or have we seen this "Ask Slashdot" before???
My advice, Hold out for the remaining weeks of your notice then if he with-holds your final pay-check file a law suit for breach of contract to get the money he owes you.
Simon
If you can't, try explaining your boss. If he still doesn't like it, and if you don't mind much that paycheck (how much) then you at least gave your best effort.
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
If it were me, I'd give him a good 'ol fashioned swift kick in the nuts. Then say thanks for the job insecurity, expoitation, long hours, minimal pay raise, and general harrasement.
Then I'd give him another good kick in the ribs to grow on.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
"White Oleander."
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
This sounds legally dubious.
You need the advice of a solictor. Especially if he is withholding pay, and damaging your reputation.
Perhaps you can go out and get your boss drunk one night and just get it all out on the table. I'm sure he's just overreacting because he's upset.
Most sane and mature employers understand that as long as you give them notice of the termination of employment that the burden of employee replacement is on the employer, not you. The fact that your current employer is doing this proves how immature he is. Withholding the last paycheck may be something stipulated in documents you signed at the beginning of employment so you may want to look those over.
I have had previous employers that I have had issues with personally, but tried my best not to burn the bridge myself. If they had burned the bridge, I would definitely talk to their boss about this. If they didn't have a boss above them then I would gladly have had choice words for them. It's all a judgement call, but if you need this on your resume, definitely don't burn the bridge yourself.
I am a meat popsicle.
... does your new job depend on references from your existing employer? I wouldn't want to make the situation any worse that it is already.
If nothing else, you might end up meeting your current workmates in another company some time in the distant future.
Otherwise, get out of there as fast as you can, since you have already indicated that you were unhappy working there.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
And have the lawyer write a simple letter explaining that you'll be paid through the end of your employment regardless of finding a replacement. Remember, too, to take the high road, don't stoop to this guy's level. It'll make him look all the more like the ass that he is.
Do you have ESP?
Leave now and threaten to sue him if he doesn't pay you. He can't not pay you if you don't find a replacement. Since you have already found another job, it doesn't much matter if you leave on good or bad terms.
Portland, North Dakota Puppies
he's trying to find something to blame on you, don't wait until he does.
before you leave document everything, you do.
then sue his ass off: from witholding pay to defamation of character...
DO NOT write anything like the following in a slashdot article: My boss has always been a bit nuts.
Video Production Support
There's no "stricly speaking" about it. You have no responsibility on this point.
If everyone knows your current boss is a nut case, just try to live with it until you leave. If you can't stand it, just walk out. You already have a follow-on job, and you don't need this guy, if he's going to bad mouth you anyway, cut your loss and don't show up tomorrow.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Get outta there, it's gonna blow!
I have no good advice for your general situation, other than this:
1) offer to go quietly immediately, and offer to stay for a reasonable period of time - 2 weeks after your initial notice is reasonable - and let him make the choice.
2) if he lets you go today, don't expect to get paid for time not worked.
If he actually withholds your final paycheck, take it up with human resources, his supervisor, or if necessary, someone higher up. What he is doing is most likely illegal. If necessary, remind him of his legal obligations and that the next step will be the court system, civil AND if applicable, criminal court. Don't threaten legal action unless all else fails, that will burn all bridges.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It's the same as breaking up with a signifigant other - when it comes right down to the marbles, you're leaving because there's something you don't like, and by collary, you think that you can find something better. In this case, you already have something better. The person on the other side of the equation is going to have a tough time with that.
It's worse if you're leaving a business on shakey ground - because it's the ultimate vote of non-confidence. I think it's worse in tech, because a lot of the time, the people ARE the company.
Don't worry about what your boss thinks. Do what you said you would, always, but at the end of the day the decision has already been made. Concentrate on making a good impression with your new employers.
..don't panic
and fulfill your end of the commitment
I'd agree with the other posters so far and say, yeah, stick it out.
I guess I don't know your boss at _ALL_, but, if it gets too bad, at some point, you're just going to have to be direct with him. I'd imagine it'd go something like "You're treating me poorly and making both of us look bad, you already know I'm going to leave, so we should make this as pleasant and professional as possible. I intend to honor my promise to stay for N weeks, but if you want me to leave sooner, I will." Being direct in a positive way shouldn't burn any bridges. Of course, like you said, if he's crazy, you may already be hosed.
Good luck in your new career!
even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.
Withholding pay without just cause is often illegal. I'd consult with legal counsel, or at minimum your state's department of labor.
Given that he's already threatened to steal money from you, tell him that he either needs to pay you ahead of time, or you're walking out the door.
That's my opinion of the ethical situation. If you don't think that'd work, or you don't actually want to walk out the door, you should:
TALK TO A LAWYER. Seriously. They will tell you what you can do if he actually stiffs you. No, no one thinks you should actually work for free.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Oh how could you disrespect the family like this? Well...
your question is about leaving on good terms but the real problem is the way your boss is treating you. you're like one of those rape victims that thinks you asked for it somehow.
He said he'd been there 6 or 7 YEARS. I think he needs it on the resume.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Regardless of whether or not he's being professional doesn't mean that you shouldn't be. From what you write, it seems like everyone already knows he's a taco short of a combo platter, so your reputation shouldn't suffer too much.
Even still, if you stay for the duration and he skimps on the final paycheck, take his ass to court...
I've been there, done that.
Had a couple bosses (especially, for some reason, small development and start-up companies) that lost it.
The easy answer is: do the right thing. You did the right thing by giving notice, you did the right thing by hanging in there. Go in to work each day and be the best you can. Help hand off the codebase. Give the best training you can to the others.
The more you do the right thing and your boss acts like an idiot, the better you are doing. Do the right thing and let the rest slide.
In both of my cases, the old boss felt sorry for acting the way he did. (But this took several months) People get upset when they don't know what to do. Sometimes they act very poorly. My advice is to be a bigger person than that.
Timothy
I don't know whether you're based in the UK, because if you are then you can claim for many, many things and hang this chap out to dry. For example
* constructive dismissal
* bullying
* libel
The best thing is to consult your trades union representative, a solicitor or citizen's advice bureau.
Again, if you're in the UK, you can put in a formal grievance (even if he *is* the boss), then take sick leave due to stress. He'd still have to pay you.
Best of luck with both this and your new job!
## NB: Comment here
My personal advice is to make it known that you will honor your word to work out your remaining time and give 100% while you are there, but if it's outside of your job description to find and train your own replacement don't.
I don't advise that you do this, but personally, I prefer to make legal threats, but vaguely. It's a subtle thing, you want to make a threat to take legal action that the boss will later wonder if you meant you'd kick his ass.
After he sweats it out for a night or two, let him raise the issue again, let the veil drop. Let it be known that you were talking about legal channels.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Depending on the size of the company you're working for, your wacko boss may have a boss of his own.
And seeing as you won't be working for this guy anymore, maybe it would be time to let the boss of him in on what you and (probably) your colleagues think of him.
That way, even though you may have burned a bridge with him that was already smoldering, you might be able to maintain a general good standing in the company. You former co-workers, who may themselves be higher-ups later in your career, might even appreciate the gesture.
It can also be a preemptive strike to let him know about your strained relationship with your former boss, so the überboss won't be poisened by his lies...
Don't underestimate what crazy people might do. Be as clean as the driven snow. Make sure you haven't taken anything out of the office. Go over anything you've signed and nail down written documentation that you've complied with it.
You can turn a conversation into a paper trail by writing a letter along the lines "This is to summarize our conversation of $DATE. I am dismayed that you would think $ACCUSATION, which as I explained is of course incorrect. If I have misunderstood your position please let me know".
It might be worth the money to consult with an employment-law attorney and ask "here's what I'm doing, I'm dealing with irrational people, what precautions do you suggest?".
Find a non-threatening situation in which to have a talk with him. He needs to be reminded (in a non-threatening way), that employment is a 2-way street.
He does not hold all the cards here. You obviously have some leverage, or he wouldn't be behaving the way he is.
Let him know that the best way for him to find your replacement is to not have a rep as an a-hole.
Get a special purpose mail account. Offer to answer the first 1 or 2 simple email questions for free. Then figure what you going rate should be, and pick up a few hours of gravey for a month or 2.
Tell him to put it in writing. It's the easiest and surest way to call him on his irrationality.
Then consult a lawyer, if you haven't already.
WorkplaceFairness has a few tips along these lines.
Sounds as if you've given sufficient notice. Unless you're violating some employment covenant, your employer has no legal basis by which to hold your final check and is probably attempting to intimidate you in an unlawful way.
Be professional, write or say nothing negative, ask for any employer complaint in writing, work out your notice with as much enthusiasm as you can muster, and seek any remedy after the fact.
This is why we have unions, folks. Or why we *had* unions. The workplace does NOT regulate itself.
Good luck, and enjoy your new job.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
Tell your boss you had an offer for x5 your current salary.
Don't tell your boss by any means the name of the new company.
He will agree with you that you must take the offer, unless that is he wants you to stay and is willing to increase your salary times 5.
If there is nothing you can do to improve the relationship between you and your employer in your final days, leave now, if you can. By staying you are only incresing the probability that something you do will make the relationship even worse. I doubt you'll be using this guy as a charater reference, anyway.
a job on good terms is to be on the phone with the BSA while your boss is "letting" you go... :)
Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
What kind of person are you? Are you prepared to sink to his level? Just take it on the chin and get on with it. You're moving on so he has no control over you. Threatening to withhold your last pay cheque is the actions of a desparate person trying to control you. Unless there is something in your contract about finding a replacement he has no grounds, although if he follows through you will have to get a lawyer to write them a letter. If you want to be proactive, seek legal advice now. Personally I would wait - how long is your notice period?
"even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave." uuhhh that's pretty actionable there (unless it's in your contract which would be a bit odd)... time to go. now. don't pass go etc. etc. also make to sure to notify the companies HR and his management about that crap.
Even with all the accusations - don't ever lose your cool and don't get sucked into arguments. They can be easily infinitely circular and even if the person is shown wrong, he won't admit it and all you've done is feed his bad attitude towards you.
If you need to talk to your boss, do it at a moment when he's at a good mood, otherwise leave him alone.
If you can, give him a list of good replacements for you (someone you know is competent and looking for a job) if you filled a vital tech position they don't have someone else already in the company for.
Ditto redundancy - don't lose your cool - leave the air open for a reconciliation on his part if he so chooses.
If your boss is that crazy, then you should bring a firearm to work. You'll need it to defend yourself.
Solicitor: Chiefly British. An attorney who advises clients on legal matters, represents clients in certain lower courts, and prepares cases for barristers to present in the higher courts.
for the other Americans in the audience.
- Anonymously bridging the culture devide since roughly 2 pm today
Had an employer like this once before (who hasnt?). After the third day I told them I had a couple weeks vacation and left on a trip out of state. He apparently thought I would be at home and tried calling. Didn't like the fact he couldn't reach me while on vacation.
:-)
Basically I told him vacation means leaving the office behind. For that matter, quitting means leaving the company behind
If you have vacation time then I'd take it. You will arrive at your new company less stressfull and they get a great employee ready to go full steam. Sure it might sound like you are leaving the company in a lurch but remember, you ARE leaving them. They will simply have to get over it and move on. That's life.
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
What would he do? Give you 3 wks notice before firing you? No, he'd can you then and there. Do the same, if you wish. Call it a business decision, and let him worry about it. Unless he pays you to recruit for him.
Your boss is slandering you. I would suggest looking into getting a lawyer. You might want to politely remind him that slavery ended over a hundred years ago ( in this country) and that he does not own you. I am a old fashioned but it seems he has dishonored you and has probably been underpaying you for a long time now. We have a saying in Texas "Money talks and BS walks" and I am sure your state has a similar proverb.
Typically an employer will send you home when you give notice (unless there is some knowledge that really has to be transfered - but you should have already been planning for that in the first place and keeping copious notes). This way there is no opportunity for you to sabotage the operation (even if you think you are leaving on good terms).
If for some reason your boss does send you home, get it in writing. Then you have some proof that you were send home for the duration of your employment.
And ofcourse if you don't get your last cheque, you can always sue. Generally a nicely worded letter from an attourny to the owner(s) of the operation should suffice (and raise questions for the jerk to answer).
Yep. I thought of that right after I wrote it. My bad.
Regardless, both are obscure enough to make the point that I wanted.
thanks though.
I do want to know what this guy changed to though. I left the software industry myself and it is interesting to hear what other folks have done.
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
it's cheaper and faster just to ask Slashdot.
Jobs like that are poison.
From the sounds of it, it's a good thing you're leaving. In a job like that, it's ALL about the boss, and what will make him look good. Bosses like that place blame everywhere else, and never where the blame really belongs, squarely on their own shoulders. They ignore ideas and suggestions for new things, and when you turn around and do exactly what they ask for, they try and turn it around as if it's your fault for just doing what they're asking. The boss just can't take personal responsibility, even thought it's THEIR job. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault.
No matter what you do, it's not going going to be good enough.
If this comes up in an interview where you need a reference, use co-workers as references, not the boss.
The boss can't keep that last paycheck without getting in big trouble with the state (check your state's employment office).
If word gets back to you that the boss is bad-mouthing you, get a lawyer on retainer and sue.
If what he's saying is not true, seems you may be able to claim damages for slander. However, if it is true, not much you can do here.
Does your job description/contract specify that you need to find your replacement? If not, that particular task is not part of your job duties and therefore your pay cannot be legally withheld. If such a chore is part of your job (but why would you have agreed to such a condition?), I'm sure there are plenty of people looking for tech jobs right now...
Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
Did you document the "few weeks" in your notice, or was it verbal? If it's in writing, you should probably stick with it or it may come back to haunt you later. If it's just verbal, he's got nothing he can hold against you.
</IANAL>
If you're being honest with yourself and the /. community as a whole, and if you didn't do anything to deserve the flamewar he is waging against you, then I have this to say about your soon-to-be-former boss: He's an idiot. My advice: Simply be respectful. Don't say anything bad about the boss or the job. If anyone asks (even in some sort of exit interview), tell them it was a good job and everything was fine, but you're leaving to make the next step in your career plans. Period. Believe me, in the future, when the topic comes up, people will know who was the wacky one and who was wise.
At our company, we don't have the best possible wages and benefits. What we have is good, but there are certainly other companies out there that offer something better. Every so often, employees find a "better" job and leave. I've heard what the "big boss" here says when someone gives him notice. He usually bids them farewell, invites them to come back and visit sometime, and generally gives them some advice. For example, if an employee is known around here for something detrimental, the boss will usually remind him (not to rub it in, but rather to help him out) to pay particular attention to that aspect of his work, so he will start the new job on a fresh page.
In 20 years, we only had one incident. A secretary, who was a complete wacko, got fired. She took customer lists and God only knows what other information with her, and she actually called all the customers and trashed us. She made threats, she did all kinds of stuff... Our boss, being the wise and learned man that he is, told us all not to worry about it. The ending of the story: Customers called and asked what was going on. We explained that we had fired this secretary. They all said things to the effect that, "You're better off without her." People are not stupid, and they understand who's on the up and up...
You could have risked it and put in your name, his name, and the company's name. Then, wait about a week or so, and then tell him to search Google for either of those 3 terms, and watch his face in horror as the number one result is a bunch of geeks are talking about kicking him in the nuts.
Stand up to him, be a man and let him know in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that "this adolescent, unprofessional puerile shit will not fly" if he does not back down, and apologize to you and your clients for the damage done to your reputation as well as the illegal activity of threatening to withhold a paycheck, the lawyers will fly. Tell him "you know what's right, show some respect, be a man and stop being a pussy."
And be REAL sincere, strong and sincere about your opinion.
Hope this helps. I doubt he has a backbone. If you show yours, my bet is he'll fold.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
If I'm reading between the lines correctly, the boss you refer to is pretty near the top of the company and there isn't much in the way of an HR department. Policy is probably in short supply, and you may not even have a real contract. If any of this is accurate, you should consult with a lawyer (which does not necessarily mean hiring one; try to get a free consultation).
Really, there are two issues: your reputation and money you are/will be owed. Given that you already have a job to go to, your reputation is pretty safe as long as you behave well. That means staying through the time you committed to staying when you gave notice. You will have to balance the money you will lose by forfeiting your last paycheck against the time and money it would cost you to deal with it legally. That consultation with a lawyer will help with determining that.
Talk to a couple of your more violent friends. Organise a meeting between them and your boss after he leaves work. If he's in hospital for 2 weeks, he'll cease to be your problems.
;-)
Buy him some grapes
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
If you don't need references, bail. If you need references but can get them from other people, bail. Basically, it's not going to get any better.
A friend of mine went through something similar. A client who didn't understand the technology my friend was demonstrating freaked out when my friend said some code he wrote tricked the system into behaving properly. It was a way to explain a coding hack, but it turned out to be a poor choice of words. The idiotic client was so terrified she called and ranted to his boss, who instead of siding with his employee, gave him hell. Within a few days, the boss started questioning his abilities and treating him poorly, accusing him of various things, all of a sudden oblivious to the years of outstanding work he had done. It came to the point where my friend couldn't take it anymore and decided to leave. A few days before he was supposed to resign, a secretary overheard a conversation he was having with coworkers about why he was leaving. The secretary only overheard bits and pieces, and decided to tell his boss that he was talking behind his coworkers' backs. He got fired on the spot, after some three years of hard work, because of hearsay, unfounded accusations, uninformed clients, and an unstable vengeful manager.
Simply put, you do not want to be around a boss that bears grudges and will abuse his position to express his displeasure. It's not worth it.
If you don't like the way you're being treated, this may qualify as harassment.
1. Document each instance of things he's done to you and others that you consider 'nuts'.
2. Tell him publically you don't like the way you're being treated.
3. Document each instance someone else has observed such behavior directed at you.
You then have two options. Take this to your state labor board, which may be completely ineffective if you're a salaried employee. Or, take it to a lawyer. With your hefty settlement you'll be able to afford to work on open source software full time and make the world a better place.
Your bridges are already burnt - if you can't absolutely guarantee he'll give you a positive recommendation then you have no reason to maintain playing his games.
----- obSig
First, it's not his responsibility.
Second, and more importantly, there are a ton of issues that go into a hiring decision, many of which don't have a thing to do with the specifics of a job. An applicant may have skills, but may not have the right temperament, outlook, or might not be a good fit for the company's culture. (Or a zillion other reasons...)
I've hired, and I've (thankfully rarely) fired. Bringing on the wrong person isn't good for anyone, and from a company's perspective, is tremendously expensive in time and money.
Finding your own replacement for a job is just a bad idea all around.
I don't have points to moderate, so I second this opinion - as with others above who have said so as well. Get a letter of recommendation that is accurate and faithful to your work with them. If there is any witholding or reputation damage, consult a lawyer, and consider informing your bos, politely, of this consideration. Make sure communication is clear - because it's clear that he easily feels threatened. The solution to getting the most fair situation for you will probalby involve a little bit of negotiation and maneuvering on your part. Part of it sound like you need to stand up for yourself more.
.
-shpoffo
on ur boss' door knob.
Then for ur next job when ur employer will ask for reference "what did he do before leaving" and your ex boss goes "left a condom on my door knob", ur current boss will laugh it up and you'll be da shit!
As somebody who's been through something similar several times, I can say these things:
1. Like everybody else is sommenting: (a) it's NOT your responsibility to find a replacement, and (b) withholding pay is illegal.
2a. Since you have the new job and you're simply waiting to start, you won't need the reference from this current one. For future jobs, the only thing the company can legally say is (a) the dates you worked and (b) if they would rehire you. Anything else sets them up for a potential lawsuit.
2b. It's unlikely you will get a useful letter of reference from Mr. Bozo Boss. I wouldn't bother.
3. If you can afford to cut your losses, and you'd like to have a couple of weeks vacation, then leave. Nobody should have to put up with that garbage. If you can't afford to take unpaid vacation, then unfortunately sucking it up is the only other realistic option (unless you can find temporary contract work for those couple of weeks). And keep in mind, with a new job, you usually can't take any time off for a while anyway.
4. Don't stress it.... you've got that new job waiting for you, and one way or another, you'll be done with the current job in the next few weeks.
Do the right thing?!! Speaking from bitter experience, people who do the right thing get screwed in the end. As sad as the reality is, the correct answer is TALK TO AN ATTORNEY! They can give you the best advice on the proper course of action. Also, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Get written statements from coworkers that describe your bosses actions. As I'm sure he's pissed off a few in the past, this shouldn't be too difficult. Remember, nice guys finish last. So make sure to screw him before he screws you. (P.S. Sorry for all of the caps)
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he'll wipe out the species.
My suggestions (I assume you are working in the United States):
1) Make sure you don't leave any personal property at work.
2) Don't be confrontational or escalate the situation by arguing; if your boss tries to start a fight about it, try to defuse the situation by telling him you want to focus on work for the remaining time you are there. If your boss becomes increasingly hostile leave and don't come back.
3) Giving notice is nice of you, but it is optional; under the laws of all states you are employed "at will" which means you can leave at any time... and be fired at any time; notice is a courtesy. I have been "escorted off the premises" once when I was let go, and you can bet that is how he would treat you if the shoe was on the other foot.
3) Your boss can't withhold your pay. His threats are just that--idle threats. If he fails to send you a check you have very strong legal recourse. You do not need a lawyer. Just go to your state house (or town hall) and fill out a form that they have for this purpose. You will get paid in a hurry, guaranteed. There are extremely powerful laws and bureaucratic structures that start operating once you fill out that form. Once again you don't need a lawyer.
Also keep in mind that your boss can't withhold pay that you have worked for. If he threatens you again, just tell him that you'll file a complaint with your state's labor comission, and have them open an investigation. Legally, he can't not pay you for time that you've worked. He can't even pay you at a reduced rate, unless he informed you of it before you worked the hours.
Hopefully, you only gave him two weeks. I found out the hard way, never give more than two weeks; you might think you're doing the boss a favor, but it just makes things harder on yourself to be known as the "short timer" for a month (or more).
You should definitely try to finish out your two weeks. Chances are, your boss will cool down sometime after you leave, and you'll want him to be a good reference when you embark on future job searches. At the very least, you don't want him to be a negative reference.
Your boss may be a total ass, but you should try to honor your word. Your most valuable asset in the business world is your reputation.
These days, you have to be careful when you start a new job. They'll put a contract in front of you, and a lot of times is may state that if you don't provide notice, you forefeit your last paycheck and/or your vacation time, etc.
Before leaving any job, RE-Read the contract you signed when you took the job (if you did).
I develop a lot of my own IP, and I had to strike a few clauses (with my attorney's help of course) that said that _any_ IP I developed while employed at the company belonged to them. They were reasonable and accepted my changes.
Legalese can really bite you in the arse if you aren't careful.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
First off, you are under no obligation to tell your employer why you are leaving. There are a couple reasons why you want to do this:
1. If you state any reason, this may come to haunt you later in a future job search. Your boss may try to abuse your wording as to your reason of leaving, which can set off a paranoia flag in the back of the interested future employer's mind. By future employer, I don't mean the company you'll be going to, but one in the future.
2. You will always need to keep your story 100% straight. Bosses tend to know other bosses, regardless of industry. =/
I realize you're in a small company, but you don't want to give anyone any reason for creating doubt in your future job search.
Always dangerous to respond with limited details of a situation, but here are some basics that may help:
:-)
:-)
1. Put the onus of responsibility on him (management) where it belongs. Ask him to meet all the aspects of the new job you like (i.e. pay, benefits, responsibilities/tools, commute, working from home, etc). Note: He won't meet these requests, but, it puts focus back on the things for which you are leaving rather than his charactor assasiniation. Don't give him more time as he "works" to meet your needs either.
2. If you were so horrible (as it sounds like he is accusing you of) then why did he (management) keep you for 6-7 years? It begins to look pretty strange to anyone (peers or other management types) once that logic emerges
3. Continue to be professional, in spite of his lack of professionalism. Keep a journal of things said to you for potential legal action later should he follow through with his threats to withold pay. (Please tell me you did not send this message from work, which would fall outside this "professionalism" suggestion... calling a boss names in open forum that can be traced to you would be a bad thing...)
Best of luck to you, sorry you are having a rough path out to bigger and better things...
CS
One thing you might want to think about doing is a status report that you can give to your boss and either the HR department or your boss's boss. That way, you have in writing the status of projects and any major issues still open and your boss can't "blame" you for things that he may not have done correctly.
Also, don't think it's legal for them to withhold your paycheck and the things he is saying could be grounds for slander...I'm sure the HR department would be very interested in that.
I know what your situation is like. I have often found, quite inconveniently, that killing your boss is the only solution.
Look for the posters that are required by law to be "posted conspiciously in a location easily accessable by all employees" both for the Federal, and the State requirements.
for example, in Maine
# Employers must pay wages to employees on an established day or date at regular intervals not to exceed 16 days.
# Employees must be paid for the work performed. Employees who leave a job must be paid in full within a reasonable time.
# Employers cannot deduct from an employee's pay for things such as broken merchandise or bills not paid by customers.
I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
It's pretty obvious what's going on here: the boss is out of his depth, his own job is in jeopardy, maybe his personal life is also in the toilet, and he's blaming everyone but himself for his woes. Under those circumstances, confrontation of any kind is unlikely to help things, and could easily make things worse. What do I mean by "worse"? Maybe just a few harsh words, but this is a classic formula for workplace violence. One should step carefully.
The threat to withhold the final paycheck is, of course, illegal. The way to deal with this is to politely remind the boss of that fact. If that produces more outbursts, then you should take it to the HR department, and maybe your boss's boss, both of whom will be quite concerned at the legal exposure such a threat creates. Or, if the boss is also the proprietor, you should talk to the state employment commission.
And you should probably depart as soon as your statutory two weeks is up. There are many good reasons to remain longer: you want to act professionally, you don't want to leave your co-workers in the lurch, etc. But they just don't apply when you're being abused and threatened in this way.
Continue to work for the time you originally said you would. Don't worry about them withholding your final paycheque. If he brings it up again, tell him he can't do that, and then ignore the threat. If he actually _does_ withhold your final paycheque, you have a legal claim against him that you will have absolutely no problem getting resolved.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Seriously - don't sink to his level, make threats or do anything unethical - he will just use it against you.
Keep records of anything they accuse you of and what you are doing your last few weeks.
If, after you leave they try to withhold your last paycheck just file a complaint with your state deptartment of employment. Every state I am familiar with has strict laws about requiring that you get paid for time worked. The state I work in has a law stating that the only reason an employer can withhold wages is if there is a court order in place.
Later, if you feel that your former employer is trying to do something to damage your reputation, talk to a lawyer. This sort of slander is viewed very dimly in the courts.
2. Resign.
3. ???
4. Profit!
Put in your time, leave, and never give it another thought. A boss like that won't be pleased (or sated, whichever is more appropriate) no matter what you do.
steve
Tell your soon-to-be-ex-boss this: "It's not you... It's me..." He'll understand.
Both his State's labor board and the IRS would be very interested to know that he was withholding wages.
Go tell HR/payroll that he threatened to withhold your paycheck, and if they don't act, talk to the state labor board or whatever it's called in your state. By the way, in California, it is illegal for an employer to tell you to not discuss your salary with other employees.
There's something called "labor law" (hope that's the correct term in English) which is there to protect employees from threats (and actions) exactly like the ones your boss seems to be making. At least in Europe, but I am very sure there's an equivalent in the US, too.
All you need to do is to look into your contract and be sure to have complied with the terms of notice (again, hopefully the correct term in English). If you did then you are entitled to your final paychecks, dismissal pay (correct term?), etc.
Your boss has no rights whatsoever to withhold any of your paychecks or to talk badly about you or your work if you quit your job in accordance with your contract. Of course there's nothing to keep him from opening his mouth and being "a bit nuts", but he may not do anything which would be to your disadvantage.
If you are in doubt you might want to contact a lawyer or look into the code yourself. You do not need to take shit like that from him (or any other supervisor).
And which parallel universe did you crawl out of?
And he CANNOT withhold your paycheck. He will open himself up not only to a lawsuit from you (that you will win)
How much does an attorney charge vs. how much is that paycheck?
pour a bag of quikset concrete down the boss's favorite toilet on the night you leave. always good for a hoot and a holler.
(this is just a joke. one of my friends manages an apt. building and a lowlifer did this to one of the apts. on the way out. had to saw through the slab to fix it)
Whether or not it is important to leave a job on good terms is a personal issue for you to answer, not a question for the community. It might make a difference in your future career but it is much more a question of personality, and whether you would regret the bad blood.
If you decide you do want to leave on good terms, best approach IMO is to talk to the nut directly, don't go behind his back or get anyone else to intervene on your behalf. Try to be the hurt pal, let him know how you want to be remembered as a good worker, that you were there a long time, that it bothers you he could think you were causing trouble, and so on. It might not work right away, or at all, but if so you'll know for sure there was nothing more you could do. You may have every right to be angry (we can't know for sure, but it seems you do) but acting angry does no good if what you want to accomplish is to calm down the paranoid.
And if it doesn't work, *then* calmly make sure you've covered all your bases: dot your i's and cross your t's, keep proof of everything, and don't say anything stupid.
In my own experience I've felt sometimes it was worth going the extra mile to make someone happy, and sometimes it wasn't.
As long as your work for your clients are finished, I would have put in for vacation for the last week if you knew far enough ahead of time. But have yourself still on call for emergencies, or if clients want to speak with you personally. This allows you to be out of the loop of working there but allows you to keep working with some clients if need be, and it also gives you some rest before starting your new job. If this was short notice, got a job and next day handing in a 2 weeks notice, they will always take that in a bad way, like you are jumping ship on them.
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Withholding payment for accrued vacation time is not illegal, and is a common tactic for ensuring "good behavior" during the last days of employment.
"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
A contract cannot override the law.
Yeah, right.
Based on what you've said, you tried leaving gracefully and in good terms, but he shot that down. Continue being polite and see if he settles down a bit. If not, confront him about it. Be polite about the situation but firm. Just talk it out and get to the root of the problem and figure out a way to peacefully leave... ...Or better yet, when he falls asleep in his office put his hand in warm water...
...should he be held libel (assuming he is making information up), or at least harrassing you? That is law-suit-worthy, and can be used as leverage, should the situation arise. But I wouldn't really make it known to him that you could do such, because he could accuse you of blackmail. Best of luck
1) Keep your word. Stay until the end date that you promised. Nobody likes a liar.
2) Document everything on paper.
3) Get witnesses. Don't hold any critical employment conversations without a third party present.
4) Request an exit interview. At it, deliver a copy of your documentation.
5) Buy a farewell lunch for your co-workers to celebrate your departure.
6) Leave with a smile.
I don't like to burn bridges, but I'm pretty sure he's already burned it to the ground, even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.
I'm not sure where y'all are from, but in California your employer has to pay you the amount of money that you think they owe you when you leave a job. If you make unreasonable claims, then they have to pay you anyhow and take you to court to get it back. It's in the labor code somewhere. I cited this myself once when leaving a job and I got all of the money that was I owed right away.
If this is guy is DEFAMING you, GET A LAWYER !!!
even threatening to withhold my final paycheck if I don't find a replacement before I leave.
That's obviously his job to do. But since he also neglected the other part of his job - namely to nurture and retain valuable employees (like you), it's indicative that you're making a good move away from an incompetent boss.
Notwithstanding all the screwy crappy behavior, do not bad mouth your company or your boss.
Be nice, wish everyone well, and offer to spend time answering questions and handing off your currently active job responsibilities to anyone that the boss wants to take them over.
You never ever want to burn a bridge. Because you never ever know for sure if you'll need to try to come back over it.
Although it looks as if some folks aren't expecting to need good references in the future to have a chance to work again with John Bolton:)
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Aloha Timothy;
I just had to do the same thing, although my experience was bit more pleasant. I do understand the former, nasty boss syndrome. The only hold they have over you is withholding payment and damage to your reputation. It sounds like you're no longer too concerned about clients believing your boss, and withholding payment in this case isn't right or legal. Someone up the list suggested contacting your boss' boss. It will help if your boss does have one. Otherwise, you'll need to request a private meeting with him/her, and in it you need to not back down, first asking what their reasoning is in thinking that they need to threaten you with withholding payment, and second that you will not back down and it's illegal, only if the conversation comes to that. As a last resort - and this is painful and can be difficult, I know - you may have to cut your losses short, and risk leaving without being paid. Obviously having a new job that's much better will more than make up for it eventually, but you may suffer difficulty not being able to pay the bills for several critical weeks, if not a month! Whew! I understand what you're going through!
I am quite sure that if you decide to be tough, fair and determined not to be screwed into the ground by this, you will come out a better, stronger, and most importantly paid individual.
Good luck and keep us informed of what happens!
Thinkingman.com New Media
You are being nice by giving them notice. They can't make you stay longer in order to find a replacement. The fact that your boss can't cope with stress isn't your problem. And in terms of future jobs you can always put down someone else as a reference from the company. Just don't pee on everything on your way out and you should be fine. :)
Midget Tosser
That kind of response means only one option - the final one!
Punch him in the face as soon as possible. Try to do it in front of the staff. Extra points if he crys.
If you find a replacement you'll be responsible for that replacement going forward into the future. You need to make a clean break. Your boss needs to find someone else to form a relationship with, what's he going to do if anything goes wrong with the new person, track you down and get you to solve that problem too? No way, if this new person were to have problems are you going to find yourself in court? What if there's a leak of company info, you want to be on the suspect list because your 'plant' is still working there? Forget it.
I've been there. My approach was to be as polite but direct as possible. You extended him the professional courtesy of a letter of resignation and a period of notice. If he can't repond in a professional manner, I would a) walk out and b) send him a lawyer's letter if he decides to withhold wages earned by yourself.
My two bits
Clive DaSilva Email: clive.dasilva@gmail.com Ubuntu 18.10 Kernel 4.18
...or he will mess back with you!
It's poisonous. They made a movie about it.
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working for a small development ...
Seems like he's an anonymous writer too, if he didn't leave his name.
First get your paycheck, and then because you are such a nice guy, find a completely innept replacement for yourself.
I don't know where you are located but, in many jurisdictions, it is illegal for an employer to refuse to give you your final paycheck.
It is tough to determine the best tactic in your case - if your employer is making your work situation intolerable you may end up having to quit. I would lay a paper trail confirming that you both agreed you would continue to X date. Then enumerate your issues in a letter stating that you consider that his unreasonable actions breach your employment contract (even your verbal agreement to stay until X is a contract) and must be remedied.
Above all else, don't act in anger and always be respectful. Assume everything you say will be recorded forever for posterity. Simply don't say or do anything you won't be proud of later. The best possible outcome would be to restore a level of rapport such that you could finish the agreed-on notice period. If you feel forced to leave you may have legal recourse, but that shouldn't be your primary objective.
What comes around goes around. Even if your even-handed behavior is unrequited at this time, it may be appreciated - by your employer or by a third party - later. Who knows when and in what circumstance you may next cross his path.
My advice is whatever he does or says be unexpectedly nice to him, take it as like a challenge.
At the same time you have to make it clear that you are doing X or Y and Z for him but you do need to be paid as you have financial commitments.
If things look bad take legal advice from a union/solicitor or whatever.
Remember your preferred outcomes in priority order are.
A) Leave on good terms, with pay.
B) Leave with pay.
C) Leave.
Remember that, and the fact that you will be gone soon anyway and don't get pissed off and do something stupid.
whether your leaving your spuse or your job, just be nice. It'll serve you better in the long run.
But....
Him making those accusations, can be considered slander and can be actionable. His regusing to pay unless you find a replacement, is illegal in many states. You should place in an e-mail, saving a copy of the e-mail in a mailbox that is not a company mailbox, that explains this and that you agreed to work for the period (and assist in looking for a replacement). And point out that in talking to potential replacements, that when speaking to them, you will only speak the truth of the working environment. And if it is an impossible environment, then your discussions will reflect that.
Point out that his behavior indicates that he does not want you there now, and if he does not want you there, you would be happy to leave immediately.
Fight Spammers!
You don't want to burn any bridges. But you can't control other people and your boss has already burnt the bridge.
Since there is no bridge left; simply leave. Tell him that because of his recent unreasonable behavior that you have decided not to complete working for the remaining time period that you agreed to under other circumstances. Your boss has solved your bridge issue for you.
You are afraid of impending consequences as described by your boss (lack of being provided final pay). I think the legal system solves this problem for you...
IANAL: Extortion is a threat given by another party to divest you of money or property unless some [undesirable] action is taken.
If he theatened not to pay you your final check that is extortion. You already own that money since it is pay due for time you already worked (unless he pays you ahead of time; which I highly doubt). When he threatens you again to withold pay tell him that you, as of that moment, are suing him for extortion and that your lawyer will contact his. Thank him for providing you with the opportunity to own his company.
He will back down, you will get your final check because he legal owes that to you. (If you agreed to work another two weeks and don't complete that period then of course he doesn't owe you the wages for the period you didn't work.)
What you say? "He doesn't back down and you go to court." Let's see how that goes...
- You: Your honor I'm suing my ex-employer for
extortion because he threatened to
withhold my money if I didn't continue
to work for him.
- Judge: Is this true?
- Boss: I never said such a thing!
- You: Then why haven't I been paid the money
you owe me?
- Judge: Have you paid him the money you
owe him?
- Boss: Umm.... no.
- Judge: Why not?
- Boss: Umm.... Because he won't work for me anymore?
- Judge: I think we're done here.
Legal problem solved because either he now works for you or the court orders him to pay you what he owes you (plus court expenses, probably).So simple:
- He burned the bridge
- He continues to add gasoline
- He has attempted extortion.
- He is crazy at times (by your definition)
- You don't need any of that
- You already have a replacement position.
- Move on immediately.
My guess is that your boss has always been this way (I doubt he all of the sudden turned into this person unless he's had a stroke recently.) I also would wager, that if you sat and thought about it a bit, you always knew this and didn't like it. So I'm surprised you remained for seven years. Again, I'd say good job for persevering; move on now.Side note: I often wonder why employees become attached emotionally to companies. Are we projecting some sort of parent/child dependency onto this non-personal relationship? The fact is that companies don't become attached to you; there is no reason for employees to become attached to the company. Become attached to your girlfriend (or boyfriend) and hobbies. Work is just something you do to make money to make the other things possible. It is possible to make your work and hobbies the same; but this is rather rare.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
1) Unless required by law or contract, your two weeks notice are a professional courtesy. Don't forget that. You ARE being professional by giving two weeks when you don't need to.
2) A wacko boss cannot necessarily do much harm to your career. Real business people tend to see petty complaints from ex employers for what they are. Employers aren't all part of some "Boss" club or anything like that.
Strictly speaking, lawyers who are not barristers may be legal executives and not solicitors, if you see what I mean. All Lawyers who aren't barristers are not solicitors - though solicitors will try and tell you otherwise :-)
From the ILEX site :
"Legal Executives are qualified lawyers specialising in a particular area of law"
Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.
"I'm afraid I think this is bad advice."
Don't be afraid to have thoughts or opinions.
They don't mean that much to us, and could never cause harm.
But if these thoughts are coming from voices in your head other than your own conscious thinking, perhaps you should be afraid. In that case, keep them to yourself and seek professional help immediately.
I had the unfortunate position of being forced to call in the Victorian state level (Australia, btw) employee relations resolution mob when I was leaving a company a few years ago.
:)
My employer had withheld 4 weeks of pay, even though I was there AND WORKING for the entire month(!) of notice I gave (a month sounds crazy, never signing a contract like that again). They tried to claim they couldn't afford to pay me. i knew that was crap, although they had a history of not paying debtors, they did have assests they could sell, to people who were actually willing to buy them.
Fortunately, in my case, using the state-based resolution system means I didn't have to pay anyone anything to get my money. After my ex-employer stuffed them around for 6 months, they finally drove over, had a chat, quietly offered to write them up for fines, and I got the cheque in the mail.
It was a nice christmas present when it came.
Now, all this said, particularly in the initial article poster's situation, it won't hurt him to stick it out. That gives him a much stronger position if he *DOES* get shafted.
Also, i'd be inclined to not worry about doing work outside the job description during that time. They can't hold you to that, particularly if you've got other duties to attend to that you DO have to do.
That said, DO NOT under any circumstances, badmouth your previous employer in any way at any time. That's just asking for trouble, and can come around and bite you in the butt really quick.
ashridah
If they actually do refuse to pay your final paycheck you will need to contact the labor board for the state you work in. Some states will pursue the action on your behalf (free of charge) including recovering lost pay AND damages. If you think your boss is serious about this I would suggest contacting the appropriate government agency NOW just to find out what the procedure is.
My most important advice is this: C.Y.A. Document everything you do from here out. Get witnesses if you can. If at all possible don't check in any source code changes; give patches to someone else and let THEM do it.
Last time I left a job the PHB's wanted me to keep developing right up until the last minute. I'm not talking bug fixes, here; they wanted me to continue doing new development on a project that couldn't possibly be completed in two weeks. It's possible that I was just being paranoid and all they were really trying to do was to suck every last drop out of me before I left. I took no chances; I did my bug fixes -- simple ones -- and handed off the new development to some other sorry sucker.
1. if you leave before your contract allows you to, the employer can sue you: however bad the situation is, do not give your employer more ammunition.
2. your employer cannot (legally) withhold your paycheck or force you to find a replacement, etc: the only way your employer can withhold funds is if you are holding onto company assets, or you owe the company money or somethign else.
3. you need to remain civil, not just for your boss, but for everyone else around you: your reputation isn't held just by one person: the group consensus about who you are will reign supreme.
I've given notice several times; and every time I have done the following:
1. I hand deliver if possible a written and signed statement usually on a Friday afternoon and always face to face with my immediate supervisor unless they are far far away that I am planning to terminate my at-will employment with the company. In this statement I include when I plan my last day to be which is at least two weeks, but it could be three weeks or more if I am on a project nearing a critical point. At no point is my notice going to significantly exceed the amount of vacation time I have left.
2. A verbal statement that I have enjoyed being here and I plan to work as hard if not harder during the time I have remaining IF THAT IS WHAT MY SUPERVISOR WANTS.
3. A verbal request for my supervisor to tell me what he would like me to do in the time remaining.
I assume the following when I walk in:
1. I could be fired on the spot (never happened).
2. I could be asked to leave for the remainder of my employment time (happened once then got rescinded).
3. I could get a counter-offer to stay (happened twice).
4. I could get asked to extend my notice time to start my new job later (saw it happen to someone once).
But whatever the next step is, its your supervisor's to make. I would suggest you have a planning session with him to talk about what he would like you to do in the time remaining.
You didn't bring it up as a possibility, but I offer it here. What do you say if you get asked "Would you stay for a counter offer?" Here it is.
"I made a business decision to leave. It wasn't personal or emotional. If you would like me to look at making another business decision, I certainly would consider it."
Personally I don't like to burn bridges, even if the boss is nuts and unreasonable. The main thing is to keep the relationship business. Which is to say, tell your boss that the decision is not anything personal between you and him nor is it intended to hurt him or the business in anyway, but a personal career decision. I've found that refusing to be drawn in to a personal drama and reminding yourself that you are a professional and this situation is a business relationship while not being confrontational helps to diffuse the situation and may make your boss wake up to the fact he's being unreasonable. Volunteer to help out anyway you can within reason but don't go overboard and certainly don't feel guilty. As others have posted, it is not your responsibility to find a replacement and holding your last paycheck hostage probably violates the law.
Hey what this guy did is ILLEGAL!!!!!! GET IT!
It's not wrong, or bad, or insane, IT'S ILLEGAL TO THREATEN and INTIMIDATE in this way!!!!
What this guy needs is evidence or a witness!
My suggestion, lure the boss into a converstaion,
get him heated up, get him to confirm that he
was threatning to withhold your pay. The sneaky part -
Do in such a way that he thinks you are alone but
have someone else listening. Do that, and the boss
is toast and you win a big bonus check!
DO NOT LET PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH THIS THREATNING BEHAVIOR! Not a boss, not a peer, not a junior! If someone threatness to "sick the boss" on you - they are the ones threatning and it justifies a response. Don't let them get away with it. If you do, they will continue to do it! Think of this situation as an opportuniy to prevent someone else encountering the same kind of bad behavior.
Stand up for what's right here and do everyone a favour!
1. "Lawyer up". Seriously, go consult with an attorney, because...
2. Withholding or threatening to withhold pay or benefits as you describe is very, very, very illegal, and so are...
3. Libel and slander (printed and spoken, respectively).
All based on my limited understanding of US law, but if you are not in the US there are still likely protections against what you have described.
Get. Attorney. Now.
Jim
nevada is a right-to-work state
an employer can tell you to fuck off with no reason
you can do the same to the employer.
I live in a state in the U.S. where there is no right-to-work law. They make you sign a paper acknowledging that you can be fired any time for any reason. IT WORKS BOTH WAYS. The boss who hired most of my co-workers and me and championed our work died and was replaced by a weasel who stepped all over everyone and made our lives miserable. I found another job at a place where they needed me immediately, so I just went in, told him I was quitting that very day, stayed a few hours to get my files in order and left. Everyone except my boss came around to say good-bye and wish me well. The next day I started my new job and lived happily ever after. Several of my co-workers have quit or transferred to other departments since then, and even the payroll clerk who sent me my last paycheck attached a sticky note asking if I could help her find a new job.
It's important to keep your escape plan very quiet, until you get your next job lined up. If this guy had treated us decently, I would have given the traditional two weeks' notice. But let's face it, your new loyalty is to your new company and their needs. My old employer was also very aggressive about trying to force us to give them leads on new employees, but what kind of friend would try to steer a friend to work for a hostile employer?
Go on, quit now! Don't look back -- you're not going that way.
Ok, first off, it's really odd sitting here reading this article right now, since I just went through a similar situation and have been out of work since earlier this week.
- 9CB1-47F8-BA6C70E1318E65FE/111/259/188/ART/
(In my case, it appears that my boss intends to withhold my last paycheck until I return a database of his customers he claims I took from his office. The most obvious problem with this is I have no such database to return! In fact, as far as I was aware, he kept this stuff on his laptop computer, which wasn't even in the office the last few times I came in.)
But anyway, this site may help you with the legalities of employers keeping your last paycheck:
http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/7D5D0C62
don't leave early. If he with holds your paycheck you can take him to court. Unless you signed an agreement upon hiring to find a replacement... which I doubt.
My former employer had many people leave for many circumstances.
The best exit routes were where the employee gave 2-3 months notice, so things could be handled in a nice and calm way. Documentation could be changed, and responsibilities moved and managed.
The worst were where the employee gave half-day notice, and there was nobody trained adequately to fill those responsibilities. Panic ensues. Worst was a CFO who quit.
You should stay for as long as you said you would stay. If he does withhold your final paycheck for any reason, take him to court. You'll win, and he'll have to pay your legal fees.
it is against the law for him to with hold your pay and can land him in jail. even the threat of with holding pay is a felony. call him on it and remind him of the law as well as the conciquences of breaking it.
aww the constitution
... by giving them any notice. Ask yourself, how much notice could you count on if they were going to let you go? I've found out first-hand on three separate occasions, that number is zero.
Assuming you have a position of functional importance (and uniqueness even) in your company... if your boss had his wits about him, (and it doesn't look that way from your description) he would immediately pull someone from somewhere else for you to go on full-time training. You wouldn't be doing any of your normal work, which would give management a good view of what things you do now that nobody else knows how to do right, so they can squeeze this information from you before you depart. You should be spending the next 2 weeks answering questions and walking someone through doing your day-to-day work.
Given that this is not happening, do not be surprised if the boss tries guilt, sense of duty, obligation, or fraud (withholding of pay) after you leave or are about to leave, in an attempt to get you to stay longer, answer phonecalls at all times of the day, night, or weekend, or just plain do free consulting for them. Dont' stand for it. If they want to be calling you and asking questions or have you come in 'for a few minutes" to show them how to do something, establish a firm rate, ($50/hr is a generous consulting rate) paid in advance. Don't let them take advantage of you.
If you're thinking about cutting out early, at least try to weigh in your impact on the other employees... you probably know what life will be like for them for the next 2-4 weeks as things are trying to get settled back down. Don't let one manager ruin your day AND theirs. The manager might have it coming to him, but he'll just spread the grief around as most PHB's tend to do.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
your employer always will be mad at you cause you left period, and why the hell trying to work with him again, don't think about leaving if you are thinking in a possible return. Remember you are most likely to get humiliated if you return with your tail between your legs.
Praise god you can leave and they are not kicking you. That's business, that loyalty you want to express is so 1950's give with the times.
Write him a written letter (keep a copy) telling him how much you've enjoyed your job there and the company. That you regret leaving the company but as he knows, we all should move forward and reach for new challeges and oportunities when the option is available. You're saddened by having to leave such a great company but excited to move forward. Leave as you orginally intended. If he is as you say, your situation is likely to get worse. Two weeks notice is fine. Steve M.A. Human Resources Developement
Won't someone think of the replacement? Just think of the bad karma you'd receive for fixing the replacement up for a term with psycho-boss! Imagine if the replacement was actually someone you knew or even a friend? Come to think of it, why can't they find at least a semi-suitable replacement in today's job market?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Actually I have found many, many times that a camera or a tape recorder (or digital audio recorder) is a wonderful peace-making device.
Set the tape player on your desk out in the open and just leave it there. Next time someone comes in and says something totally nasty (ie, not paying the last paycheck, or bad-mouthing you, or whatever) just point to the recorder and say "that's on." It doesn't have to be on, but if you manage to time it right even better.
Amazing piece of attitude adjustment, someone knowing that whatever they say or do is on tape.
I once walked into the county court records office once and as the worker-bee walked up (I think I interrupted her game of Solitare on her computer, she didn't look happy) I popped a flash camera up and snapped off a picture. When she asked what that was all about, I explained that I was going to send her picture to the Mayor describing how helpful she had been. And she was very helpful, go figure.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Your human! Your perception of the universe is
imprecise! Therfore you do not have a "perfect"
model of the Real Universe! So your a bit "nuts",
cause your model of reality is a "bit" off!
QED - Get over it!! Your still alive - enjoy it!
Have you considered peeing on his desk chair?
Get video, audio and witnmesses for any exchange. Let boss be the sh*tbag.
If you don't need or expect the reference who cares if you burn bridges or not. Last I checked offices were fairly flammable as well.
1) Grow a pair.
2) Don't play the game.
3) LEAVE! (on the day you said you were going to leave...legally he has no choice but to pay you for what you worked)
Blarf.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
I am not suggesting that you purposely leave on bad terms, or violate the Golden Rule (Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You).
I recognize the personality that you describe as your boss. This type of person is very common among small businesses. They are very focused and self absorbed, and there is often no one there who can or will force them to step back and few the larger picture.
As someone who already has another job lined up, it's your duty to politely, but firmly and without accepting any argument, point out the behaviour. Usually the best way to do it is in front of numerous other people, because private conversations may not be parsed for content at all, but just interpreted as resistence. Tell them (with a smile): "Sir, threatening to withhold money I have already earned is against your morals. You don't want to be so focused on your short-term annoyances that you do that, do you ?" "Sir, you are already known for being a bit nuts by all your aquaintances, your bad references can't hurt me unless you behave sanely for a few years." You've got to drive the message home because you are probably the only one in a position to do it.
Your long-term reputation will be better if you are firm in this regard.
If the company has any money at all, and you have any time at all, you can be paid and so on...
1) If the check is due and does not come, you can write your own demand letter. Opinions and accusations are not needed. Just send a note saying that you need your final check by ___ (date) which should be maybe 1 to 2 weeks after the due date, if you want to be generous. Don't send it "certified" (that's expensive and unnecessary). Send it by Prioirity Mail ($3.89) and be sure to add "signature confirmation" to the delivery specs.
2) If he doesn't pay:
a) File in the local small claims court for the full amount expected plus the small claims filing fee, plus interest (won't be much but add it)
b) Report the employer to whatever state agency regulates companies and employers. One such agency is always the Secretary of State, that handles the official-ness of business entities, but there is probably also a sort of board that regulates the conduct of businesses.
>> ...any contract that does violate the law is null and void.
Yeah, but someone's got to pay court costs to sort it out. The employer will contend there's no violation. It'll take a lawsuit to get a ruling.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
It's amazing that a corporation, one that will inform you at 9AM that you're being released and expect you out the door by 10AM, can turn around and demand you stay longer. Fuck em. I gave up paychecks to help some previous employers and received no gratitude whatsoever from them in return. You're a resource to them. If they slander you, sue them. Wear a wire (check with your state laws first) then bring the tapes to a good lawyer. Sue the bastards for three months salary plus court costs.
You are not obligated to do anything. Most companies these days use "at will" employment and while it is often missed it is a two way street and the employee can quit without giving prior notice.
Withholding your final paycheck is plain illegal. They have to pay you in full, with accrued vacation days etc within a few days from your last day at work.
Good luck,
SFWind
If this guy felt threatened enough to come
post here then I think a lot of us don't
get it at all. How many of you have started
a thread about this kind of situation on SlashDot!
This guy needs evidence! Don't wait! Get the
situation under control and get things going your
way BEFORE you leave. Doing anything about this
later just gets more and more difficult.
Getting some physical evidence or a witness to
this kind of behavior will make all the
difference! Anyone can make an accusation. Get
someone to overhear the threats. Then your boss
won't be giving references period. His boss will,
and it will be something like.
"This employee showed one kind of behaviour we
greatly appreciate. He helped us resolve a
difficult situation using courage and insight!"
You think your bosses boss want's lawsuits and
illegal activity of this sort going on? That
could wreck the business and damage all of the employees.
Do the right thing here!
we had illegal immigrants apply for work with us, with some damn fine fake work documents.
our employee leasing company however, is very anal, and informed us within 12 days of hire that they were not legitimate authorizations..
they were not paid.
they were told, before punching in, that if the documents had any issue, they would not be paid.
the hours are logged with the employee leasing company, and the (ex)employees have been invited to pick up their paycheck any time they can provide valid work authorization that covers the dates in question..
illegal on our part? I don't think so, we paid the leasing company, and they paid quarterly taxes.. the payment to the individuals is still sitting on the bottom of our payroll statement each month...
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I simpathize with you, I too had a bad boss, but his behavior is very disturbing.
However, despite this please don't just leave and jet early because you'll still need his good reference. 6-7 years of hard work and I'm shocked that he doesn't show you any respect. It's normal for employees to leave and that's the risk employers must take. Also any good manager will always cross-train employees, so your work still continues. If he hasn't done this then this is his fault.
Goodluck.
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
I was the director of I.T. for a medium size retail concern. I had finally grown tired of the company president overruling my decisions, even when my decisions concurred with that of the company controller. The SOB tried to withhold pay, I told him that state law was on my side and would he like to dance? I got the pay. But that son of a bitch lived next door to the Speaker of the House. My new job was a state job and so when transition time came guess who was out of a job. Payback will be a mother, I assure you. I'm just biding my time. BTW, the son of a bitch is named David Resnik. If you ever run across the man, either run or smack the shit out of him.
I find it hard to believe that this guy would treat someone who's leaving an IT job this way. I have found more than one manager who preferred to pay me for the two weeks and hustle me out the door when I give them notice than so they can secure their networks against me, which is something that I consider a wise move.
Not to say that you should sully yourself and your reputation with backdoor hacks and retribution, but it's a dumb manager that leaves you in a position to do so then provides incentive to do so by acting like a jerk. Your boss needs to be hit with a clue stick... there aren't too many ppl that can fuck up a business like an IT guy with inside knowledge and a chip on his shoulder.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
A solicitor is the last person you ask for advice. A solicitor will give you whatever 'advice' you need to hear to take the matter further, via the legal system, and pay them hefty consultation fees.
Slashdot is a good place to start. You will hear from people who may have been in a similar situation in the past. The average Slashdotter will give you an honest opinion as they have nothing to gain or lose from it. A solicitor will NOT tell you "the last thing you want is a court battle if you can resolve things peacefully".
Thanks for the additional info, I hadn't considered it.
However, the thread-starting poster seems more interested in preserving his reputation than in maximizing money in the short term.
If he can afford it, and absent disparagement he'd be able to get another job soon, it may be worth it to give up money in exchange for giving up headaches.
It's a call only he can make.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
If he says he's not going to pay you unless you find him a replacement, don't keep working under those conditions. Simply not paying you will not be enough to satisfy his desire for revenge. If he does somthing like that to you, he'll need to justify his action to himself and others. In other words, he will be motivated to ruin your reputation. Either he takes back the threat or you walk immediatly.
Be firm, but don't be threatening. Let him know that you're committed to make the transition as easy as possible for him and to fufil your fair responsibilities, but make sure he understands that the choice and the power is his.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
15 years after quitting a job where I worked for an abusive boss I still have nightmares about him.
It was a small business - just him, me and the secretary. There was no HR department!
His business is not worth sacrificing your sanity or your dignity.
Australian ABC TV recently screened a report on workplace Psychopaths: See; http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/
You do not have a legal obligation, and he can not withold your final paycheck for any hours you actually worked-- that is against the law. And there is no excuse for his behaviour and lack of professionalism.
That said, you say this is a small development company. I do not know how critical you were to the operation or what mutual expectations you may have created. Looks like you were interacting with the clients.
This is not specific to you, but in general for anyone who works for a small development company for a long time.
At some time in the past, you started looking for a job. At some time prior to that you must have thrown a mental switch that you were going to start looking for a new job. At some time even prior to that, something about your work ceased to be rewarding. I am sure all of this did not happen overnight. You did stay there for 6 or 7 years. That is a long time in the software development business. Given your boss's reaction, you are likely a key member of the team. Did you catch your company and your customers by surprise when you announced you were leaving ? Did you discuss the events that were causing you to be unsatisfied when you threw the mental switch? Yes, your employment is likely at-will and your boss could have terminated your employment without much notice too -- but after 6 or 7 years at a small company, as a boss I would normally appreciate a transition time, specially when an employee is interacting with customers.
Heck, this is a very incestous business with lots of M&A activity and paths do cross again and again so it is just good advice to show professionalism all around. You may run into your customer contacts again.
Looks like you did offer to stay some extra time after you told the boss you were leaving. At this stage the environment seems fairly poisoned, so you should confront him about his behaviour and insist that you would to leave immediately if it does not improve. The couple of weeks of salary isnt going to mean much, and given the environment you would have no motivation to give your 100%.
It's a LOT harder for employers to screw you over when you know your rights AND take steps to see that they are enforced.
Agreed. Keep your word, keep records, keep your nose clean, and remember this is an adult having a public temper tantrum. If the tantrum escalates into actually doing you harm, calmly announce that you would hate to be forced to call the labor board or an attorney.
On some level, he knows he's being a jerk and making a fool of himself. If you meet that with a calm, pleasant, firm demeanor, he'll know that he may be acting like a two-year-old, but he's messing with an adult, so he can't get away with much.
And no need for you to do his job. You're not going to be around to live with your replacement, he is. It's to his benefit to do the finding.
OK, now what?
Two weeks notice is the "industry standard" but is not required. Legally, you can quit any time without notice (if you live in an at-will employment state, which I believe most of not all are). By the same token, if you give notice that you intend to quit, your boss has the right to fire you immediately (but still has to pay any back pay he owes you and/or unused vacation time). If he DOESNT fire you, he certainly has to pay you for your time. And forcing you to find a replacement is just silly - you are under no obligation to do so!
Go over his head to confront this, if you don't get satisfaction hire a lawyer. You don't want to find out five years from now, through tips and hints, and smug comments from stupid leering jackasses that you ''lost'' your job for stealing and surfing porn during work.
Take this seriously - if he's rude to your face he might be ten times worse behind your back. Character assassination is a real possibility that people don't consider until they see it with their own eyes. And problems like these won't go away unless you defend yourself. Predators can sense a person who doesn't defend themselves.
This is like something directly out of Jennifer Government, the book by Max Barry.
...and then just go. Submit a letter to HR (not the boss) in writing that you quit effective immediately which mentions when you gave notice. Keep a record of your time card.
If he screws your for all or part of it (which remains to be seen) call a lawyer.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Since when is it your job to find your own replacement? If you gave two weeks notice then he has nothing to bitch about. He sounds like an idiot, probably one of the reasons for getting a new job, remember that.
INAL but:
1. Your employer is *not* entitled to advance notice of your departure (unless this is spelled out in a contract).
2. You are *not* entitled to advance notice of your firing (unless this would mean the employer is in violation of a labor law).
That's it, just two exceptions. If your contract does not specify a notice period, and a penalty for not doing so, you are clean. If your state laws don't force them to, your employers can wait until the very last second to tell you that you are fired or laid off.
The 2-week notice is a common courtesy, less than two weeks is too drastic and will hint at a less than friendly departure. More than two weeks will make the whole thing akward.
It is not your responsibility to find your replacement before you leave. The only thing you really owe them is a resignation letter so they can CYA. Give them thanks for the X years of great employment and for the camaraderie or whatever.
We all know it is all a lie, but you are trying to leave in good terms and that letter will stick around for a while. Next time somebody calls HR to verify your employment, you'll get lucky and the person that answers the call won't know you. She'll pull your file and read the letter and won't hesitate to tell them that sure, you worked X years there but moved on because of whatever. If there is no letter she'll ask around and eventually she'll make it to your boss, who may or not be bitter about it. You fill the blanks.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Just leave.
I had a new PHB who demanded I do my job his way or take the highway at the end of a Friday. The following Monday I turned in my 15-day notice since my project was going to end at that time. He left me alone during those two weeks to finish the project and always smiled when he saw me in the hallway. I left the company after being there for six years, and I was the third one of a dozen senior people to leave.
Another co-worker had a similar situation that I had. He lined up another job and decided to get himself fired. So he left his project materials out every night instead of locking them up. It took the PHB a week to notice that the security rules were being blantently violated and everyone (including other PHBs) knew it. So the co-worker got fired at the PHB's expense.
Like you said, don't burn bridges. That means that YOU'RE the one who don't burn it. If your boss decides to do it then its his/her problem.
I'm sure you can easily find a suitable replacement, do a proper turn over, etc. In short, take it like a man for a little longer and do the honorable thing.
Let him/her get personal while you remain objective.
At least if he/she still decides to fuck you completely, at least you showed compassion and stayed professional.
Hopefully you'd be able to find a more suitable work for you. Good luck!
First off, are you in a right to work state? If so, you can leave if you want. Otherwise, you're stuck keeping to your official notice.
Having been in similar situations (far too often I'm afraid) I would recomend being the mature adult. Show everyone by your actions that you are a responsible person who others watching the situation may wish to employ in the future. Sure, your current boss never will, but who know which one of the silent watchers might remember you later.
All that being said, if your boss does withold your final paycheck you can talk to a labor lawyer, or just your state labor board - the one time I did this I had the president of the company calling to make things right! Mention his irrational behavior to the head of HR, if he knows his business he'll have kitten-fits over what is going on and fix it very quickly.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Anonomus call to homeland security, best part is you don't need any evidence and you will never see him again.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Withholding a paycheck could get yer boss in dutch
with the state labo(u)r department. You perhaps
ought to remind him of this.
And absent any goodwill you might still feel toward
the firm you owe him nothing. Less than nothing given
his behavio(u)r.
next time he bad mouths you just say "i'm not taking shti from a nut case like you" and walk out on him. make sure you have recieved your pay up to that moment. the bridge is in ashes already, you may as well strike back
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
I'm normally all for leaving on good terms, so as not to burn bridges.
But fuck it - from what you said, he's an absolute arsehole.
I'm not sure how your legislation is, but in the UK generally the employee has a *lot* of rights and the employer has very few. So my thoughts are as follows...
Wait out the absolute bare minimum notice, if the new company wants to take you ASAP.
Don't be nasty or disruptive in case it gives him an excuse for dismissal.
If he tries to withhold your paycheque for not finding a replacement, as someone said, remind him that it's his responsibility to do so and not yours. If it's not in your job description, tell him that too. And do all this via a tribunal - to hell with being nice, he wouldn't hesitate to be nasty.
Work to the letter. If you get asked to do something that isn't in your job description, or something that might need training you haven't received, then refuse to do it.
Once you're in the next job, forget about it. You might be tempted to slag him off in the papers, but you don't want your new employer trying to get rid of you in fear that you'll do the same to him.
Good luck!
as well as mine, there is not much you can do. Two of my last jobs had managers and coworkers that were nuts, evil, or a combination of both. One was a law firm, and the other was a small medical instrument company. I haven't worked since 2002, but when they fired me, they did me a favor. Why? Because I do not have to put up with their mental, physical, psychological, emotional, and sometimes sexual abuse. I also am not able to see favoritism being played on the certain employees who are 20% of the company, but cause 80% of the problems. I mean they get rewarded for messing up by promotions and payraises, while they blame everyone else for their mistakes.
He already burnt the bridge. All you can do is claim otherwise if a potential employer calls him for a reference. Never speak negative about a company or maanager because it looks unprofessional. Hopefully the potential employer will see how unprofessional your former boss is acting and understand why you left the company.
Success is the best revenge, move on, move up, and don't let it affect your new job. Be successful, and try not to let it bother you. Unless the next company you work for is as bad or worse than the last, which it just might be, like in my case.
I continue to look for a positive and supporting environment for my employment. I do not think such a place exists yet, maybe later.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients.
This is slander and could damage your professional reputation and your opportunity to get work in the future (aren't you going to have to list this job on your resume?). I suggest you hire a lawyer to draft a letter and remind this prick that his bad behavior is not acceptable. And by all means stick around for the apology.
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
I say watch a good movie like office space and learn the important values of screwing the boss over for his lack of compassion for his employess. I know from experience that bosses can sometimes half witted and tend not to tell you in the last minute what's going especially with major projects that are due in 3 days notice.
that by behaving in this manner with you in front of the other employees, he's just ensuring that the next time someone quits, HE won't give notice.
Well, maybe not. But that's what will happen.
2. Inform him - after you get your recommendation or he refuses - that if he attempts to withhold any salary of yours that is due, you will file a complaint with the state labor commission and you will sue if you need to. In most states, withholding a paycheck can be a crime, and in fact some states allow for court costs and attorney's fees plus triple damages, on the same as if someone fails to cover a bad check.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Ignore this manager's behaviour. Be completely gracious and generous and let all your co-workers know just how much you've enjoyed working with them. This will undermine any accusations your boss is making.
Do not find a replacement for yourself unless that was part of your contract.
If your boss tries to withhold your paycheque, threaten and if necessary carry through with legal action.
Make sure everything you do until you leave is by the book so they can't hold anything against you.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
...just cut your losses and work for the ass for a couple or few more weeks. Try to make it a point to get things straight before you leave. This will grant you more serenity of mind. You will get more respect from everyone involved and feel better about it if you're able to brush that kind of bullshit off. Work weekends/nights if you're able, to try and train the "n00b."
You should immediately talk with the employment board in your state's governement (if you're in the US). Your manager may have crossed over the line of what he can legally do.
Unless you signed an employment agreement that requires you to find your replacement (which you probably didn't and which wouldn't stand up in court anyway) they don't have a leg to stand on.
No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
Dude, is his name Ed Coughlin?
Washington, for example, allows employees to collect double damages against employers who deliberately withhold wages.
I have at times worked for bosses on medication (literally). Emotionalism is not the way to handle the situation. Calmness usually helps the person that has lost control regain it.
The way you have phrased your question makes it seem that before your boss lost it you did not dislike your job, or the company. The way I would handle it is to say the following to your boss: "Look - I enjoyed working for you in the past, that is why I stayed as long as I did. I do not want you to fail, and I would surely recommend this job to someone who was as junior as I when I started here. But I can not do that without your help. As it stands, your statements undermine any aid I can offer - any candidate I send would immediately be distrusted because of the things you have told me to the people who have to work with my replacement. I may not be able to get someone before I leave - but in the past you were a good boss, and I would like to be able to recommend you as such, despite our current situation. Can I count on your help, in the name of our past?"
Depending on the demeanor of your boss, this will be perceived as either a veiled (and effective) threat, or that you are a really good guy who cares. Or that you are a sucker ripe for betrayal (which means that he won't be clever and spin-doctor his betrayal of your trust). Either is useful.
Just because your now thankfully soon to be ex-boss is an unprofessional jerkoff, doesn't mean you need to sink to his level.
I got forced to resign under threats of BS lawsuits (which I couldn't afford to fight) by a guy who was pushing me out specifically because I told him, when asked, that I believed our company problems stemmed from bad marketing tactics.
Since he was in charge, and since his son was head of marketing, I pretty much figured what the outcome was going to be, even saying it as politely as I could. But he went seriously overboard, and really screwed me, when it wouldn't have cost him anything to act like a professional instead of a child.
Even so, I told him I'd enjoyed working for his company, dealt professionally with the last few of my responsibilities and cut my losses. I did this to a degree that he's been trying to hire me freelance for the last two years, even after that company went Chapter 13.
I say "trying" because I'm professional, not stupid.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I was working at a smallish outfit a few years ago when someone recommended me to a VoIP startup. The position came with enough stock options to choke a horse and a nice bump in pay, so I took the gig on the condition I could finish my current project at the original company. They accepted, I did, and when I resigned from Company A the boss told me I was welcome to return any time. The guy didn't take it personally at all, so the whole thing was quite civilised.
Well, the startup did what startups tend to do, and once the paycheques stopped I phoned up my former employer. It turned out he had a great pile of pending projects which needed an experienced DSP engineer, and here comes this ghost from the past who also happens to be familiar with the code base. It took us somewhat less than a minute to reach an agreement.
If he had freaked out and pulled the above crap, I would've never called him up again even if I were so poor I had to eat cat food, but because the guy was a consummate professional we're both ahead of the game.
Francois.
What an ass.
"What an ass" is a sentence fragment, not a sentence, you worthless, useless, unprofessional hack! It's no wonder that you couldn't cut it as a journalist.
-Lou The Editor
References, what are they?
I'm serious. Any competent HR department will insist that nothing more than job title and period of employment be discussed. Even a "positive" reference can bite them in the ass.
Going directly to a manager or coworker is equally useless. Nobody will use a reference who will slam them.
Finally the culture makes it nearly impossible to check references anyway. Check a reference and you've broadcast that the person is considering another job. That can put the candidate in a difficult position if the job falls through.
P.S., it's time worked AND accrued vacation time.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Here's my advice. Take what you will. I've been somewhere similar once. I didn't follow this advice entirely, but if I had to do it again, I would. Hopefully you can learn from my mistakes.
Do the time from your notice there. You aren't obligated to find a replacement, but tell your boss that you're happy to spend your remaining time looking for one and training one up if you find one. Be polite, even though the prick doesn't deserve it. Do not let yourself be intimidated. Let him dig his grave in front of the other employees. Politely disagree or ask for clarification when you are attacked or discredited. Do not work one extra minute beyond what notice you've given, do not work one extra minute overtime. You owe your boss nothing due to those threats. But make sure that any potential future employer can look back and see that you delivered 100% on what you owed, and that the employer was the one who fell short. You need to be 100% in the right because your employer will trash you when a future employer calls up to confirm your employment there. You need to show you did nothing wrong.
Expect nothing in return. You probably won't get the pay. Move to your next job and concentrate on that. If your pay doesn't show, consult a lawyer, and write a polite but firm letter stating exactly what you are owed, with a due date, sent by registered mail. Take your time, discuss things in writing only. If he calls by phone (likely) and offers anything, ask for confirmation in writing (unless it is money, in which case ask when it will arrive). Don't let yourself be intimidated. If they won't play ball, after you're settled and have a steady income, then weigh up legal action. Do not fight this without a stable income behind you, it will be one of the most miserable experiences in your life. I've been there. Get a position of strength whilst attempting to be "reasonable", and if you feel it important to crush the prick afterwards, do so. Don't go light on them because they "might" give you a bad reference. Think about what they are going to do if you let them off. If they'll trash you anyway, you've got nothing to lose, assuming you can show you've been reasonable through the whole process.
I could go on, but you've probably got the gist.
I can't even imagine working for someone like this for 6-7 months, let alone 6-7 years. How could you possibly put up with this guy for this long, and not realize it was a bad place to be in. Or did you realize this, and weigh out (salary vs phb'ness; with salary winning) the consequences. I have to believe that at some time after getting hired into the position you're at now you would have realized how your boss is, and made moves to get out of the company.
If you did the mental battle of salary vs crazy boss, you had to realize that your resignation would end like this, right?
I like to consider myself a hard worker, and a loyal employee, but I have a really hard time dealing with a boss like this, why did you stick around this long?
YOU'RE WINNER !
Another lame blog
It's a given that any HR department knows the local law. If you're processed through HR I would bounce a missing final paycheck straight to state. If they're acting in bad faith that bridge is long gone so there's no point in keeping the gloves on.
If the boss handles the paperwork but there's a separate HR department, as you walk out the door "remember" that you needed to talk to the HR department about something. "Verify" the refusal to issue a final paycheck. Either you have the situation mentioned above or see interesting faces as they hastily provide that check. In the latter case it would be a good time to review their reference policy, although it might be a moot point if HR decides they've had enough.
If there's no HR department, a discrete reminder might be useful since it's possible that they're simply ignorant of the law. This is especially possible if it's a small company with low turnover, something that seems to be the case here.
Again you'll have your answer within hours. If it's genuine ignorance you'll get your check immediately. No "we'll mail it to you" since it's far too easy for a bad player to manipulate that situation. If they don't provide a check you're back to assuming bad faith and should bounce it immediately to the state.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I normally don't post, but having some experience in this matter, I have to strongly agree here. If you leave any evidence behind of negative experiences, gripes, or aggravations, people will suspect your reasons for leaving are different no matter how untrue.
Isolating and distancing yourself from your coworkers or griping about the workplace is the worst thing you can do to your reputation at this point. But you also don't want to let accusations stick without some type of response or people will suspect maybe there's some truth to them. Humor is actually one of the best ways to go if you can manage it. You can always say something like "Come on, don't be like that" or "that's unfair". Mudflinging or descriptive arguments in public doesn't usually make you look good, even if it's to defend your position. It's a weird bit of psychology.
If your boss gets to the point where humor is no longer appropriate, your best to simply be polite, terse, and professional in your responses or tell him you decided it would be best to leave early. If he becomes verbally abusive, there's not a lot you can do if you want to leave on good terms. The fact is your boss will still be there after you leave the job and you won't be able to defend yourself if he feels like defacing your name.
On occassions where I needed to leave a company, I consulted all manner of advice. The consensus was always that the 2 weeks notice only benefits the employer. From what I have read, the best thing is to offer a few days notice and then to help them train someone to take over. After all, they should promote someone into your position instead of hiring from outside the company. If it is someone from within the company, the training should be no more than a week. If they decide to hire outside the company, then that is their choice and they take on the burden of training them. I have never once given 2 weeks notice and it has never come back to haunt me.
You have proven the advice that a 2 weeks notice gives the employer ample opportunity to drag you name through the mud. This is so the employer will have the upper hand in saying that he had to let you go, instead of you leaving him. If I were you, I would already be gone, citing your bosses behavior. You already have a job lined up. And if your boss continues to berate you after you leave, you have a legal case against him.
To answer you question though, there is very little you can do to leave on good terms. If your employer is bent on being a jerk, nothing you can do. Don't worry about leaving on good terms. Worry about leaving with your reputation in tact. Leaving on good terms has more to do with sitting down with your boss and explaining your decision, then leaving. It has less to do with how long you stay around. If you had left the same day you advised your boss of your decision, he would have had zero opportunity to make you loook bad.
weeks notice in a small company. I have a friend that is leaving a large military contractor on 2 weeks notice with no hard feelings. But when he left the company I still work for previously he gave a months notice and there are no hard feelings at all. Its really not a great idea to only give two weeks notice IMHO. If I only gave two weeks notice at the place I work right now I think I'd never hear the end of it.
...At least in California, withholding of the last paycheck is not legal, IIRC, IANAL, etc. An employer must provide the check within three days of the employee's departure, or a full day's wage is tacked onto the sum for every day the check is tardy. Now, I could be wrong, and this could only apply to the termination of employment by the employer and wouldn't apply in the case of the employee quitting. However, I'm not completely convinced of this either. Are there any experts in legal labor disputes in the house which could shed some light on this one?
-AT
Working in a DevOps shop is like playing in a band made up entirely of keytarists.
Many people say you should take legal action if they withhold your paycheck. First off, it will cost a hell of alot more to *take legal action* than a single paychecks value. (unless you are paid something excessivly stupid amount, then you would be the moron for leaving!) All you would have to do is contact the local labor board and inform them of the situiation. Your employer would be contacted by one of their reps, and the would comply in a hurry as no employer wants the labor board breathing down their neck.
It would cost you any attorney fees either.
I hate posting a correction with my poor English skills, but it took me a while to figure this one out, so I hope it helps.
One is a number.
Won is the past tense of win.
They are both pronounced the same. In conversation I have no trouble with that, but my brain is wired such that I had trouble.
Good post otherwise.
Reminds me of a young guy I once knew who worked for an outfit I did some consulting for. He'd worked there a couple of years while finishing up and defending his Phd dissertation, but was doign work well below is capabilities. After successfully defending his thesis, he landed an excellent job at a prestigious intitution.
His boss at first was OK, then one day suddenly turned on him in the kind manner you describe, trying to humiliate him and doing everything short if cutting the buttons off of his blazer. The young guy was very cool about it, a total class act, but everyone else around was appalled. I asked the young guy about it later, and he shrugged, and said it didn't bother him too much because he was going places in this field, and the boss wasn't doing himself any favors in his future employment prospects.
Of course, this kid was thinking in terms of years, but it turned out his prediction came true a lot faster. Some of the people who were remaining behind began quietly looking into the boss's Phd, and discovered it was fraudulent, and spread the information around where it would do the most damage.
The lesson is that sometimes you really do create a kind of karmic force that affect your destiny. Take no action to harm your boss or your current company in any way; it's pointless since they can' harm you in this situation -- only you can harm yourself. Act with dignity and professionalism and everybody who can see this situation will remember all the more clearly for the contrast with your boss's actions.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
If you leave voluntarily or are fired "for cause", you cannot collect unemployment.
If you give notice that you intend to leave voluntarily, and your boss choses to instead fire you before the date you state in your notice, that does not qualify as "for cause" nor as "leaving voluntarily", and you can collect unemployment. This has been upheld by several court cases.
When former employees collect unemployment compensation, the unemployment insurance rate paid by their former employer increases. So always file for unemployment if you are eligible.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I am going to remain anonymous as to not make a bad situtation worse. I actually submitted this post back in January and was suprised to see it just posted now in May.
:-) It has made a huge difference in my life and while I miss a lot of the people (coworkers and clients) I worked with for so long, it was the right decision.
I did finish out my two weeks, although it was hardly the most fun (or most productive) two weeks I've had. I did get paid in full despite several additional threats and got screwed a bit on banked vacation time. On my last day, when I walked into the boss's office to say goodbye, he acted busy, wouldn't shake my hand, and left the room.
I appreciate everyone's feedback, though. Thankfully, I'm now working for a company that truly seems to value its employees, has some great benefits, and thus far, no total nutjobs.
Thanks again
Document everything you can about the situation. Capture as much as possible in emails, and print them out and/or forward them to your gmail account. Including interactions with your nutso boss, co-workers, clients, etc.
Because your question really isn't so much how do you leave on good terms (seems it's a bit late for that) but how do you do damage control going forward.
If you leave with some type of recorded dialog (again, email seems ideal) that shows you have been calm, level-headed, forthright, etc., you will always have this to point back to in case your professionalism comes into question.
It's a sad state of affairs, but by way of anecdote my own ass was best saved by an SMTP log after a nutso client claimed I had missed a deadline to email him a document. Log showed not only had I mailed it, but his SMTP server had accepted it. I didn't get an apology, but I did get the chance to smart-assedly refer him to some networking consultants @ $125/hr, should he continue to experience trouble with his mail domain.
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, it's just a goddamned piece of paper!" - George W. Bush Nov. 2005
Any situation where you cannot work until your last day and they have not told you to stay home with pay is a situation where you need police protection.
Even if your next job is lined up, work out your last days. (Or work out a deal to leave early, often they will let you leave earlier than your required time, but be willing to work it out) You only think you have the next job lined up perfect, there are too many things you don't know.
I have had jobs that seemed great for 3 months and then the funding fell through and I was on the street without a job in less than an hour. (the CEO basically said I could work next week, but he had just enough money to cover this weeks pay and no hope of enough to pay me for next week so I should file for unemployment)
I've known others who discovered that the job was great, but traffic was worse than they thought, so the new job wasn't worth it.
I've known some offers to be pulled after someone gives their two weeks. (This is a legal blurry area, they have some obligation to you at this point, but not much)
I've known people who took jobs that seemed great, only to discover it was a terrible abusive company that could hide it well.
Most people who switch jobs end up with a situation about like they expect, and they work there for a few years. However all of the above bad situations have happened, and they will happen again. If you are the unlucky person who it happens to you may have to fall back on the older job as a reference.
Remember too, your former co-workers are you best source of reference. If I was actively looking for a job today (I'm always looking of course), I do not want those I'm working with to know, so I cannot use them as a reference. All that are left is people who have left this company before, and people I worked with at the last job. So keep your references.
Just checking, you don't work for Steve Jobs do you?
Check with your state attornety general's office...you may find you have the right to treat him to a visit from the sheriff. Tons of fun.
rj
I just changed jobs and had a startlingly similar experience... I gave my two-weeks, my boss was initially understanding, but increasingly questioned what I was doing, what I had been up to, etc. On my final day, he even hinted at accusing me of installing keyloggers and backdoors, etc. Needless to say, I was a bit worried. The real problem I ran in to is that when I left he required I provide him copies of all my login/password pairs... I did so, and I am concerned that as a result he could have gone back and done some crazy jazz and then blamed me. :-( There's no refutability! What's a geek to do?
Last job I worked for, I lost all of my vacation time that I had accrued after the company decided "We're getting rid of our official vacation policy." (Translation: We're going to fire some people and we don't want to pay vacation.)
I mentioned this to my spammer boss, and he said basically said that he'd falsify paperwork saying that I had already used my vacation time.
It will only cost $100-150 tops, if anything at all, and you will have more piece of mind.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to withhold pay when an employee leaves, at least where I live. It says so on a poster in our break room detailing several state and federal employment regulations.
Just call up the friendly neighbourhood labour board. That's what they get paid for, and they're incredibly efficient.
If you would stay if the money was better, tell him you got a better offer and will need a 30% raise or a profit sharing plan in order to consider staying. He will give you the raise. Most companies have pretty fat margins if they've been around that long and you deserve a cut if you're vital to the company.
He's dealing with separation anxiety. He likes you and is fearing your loss and actually missing you, he's going through the steps of making a mental separation such that after you're gone, he can say that he's glad yer gone, rather than missing you. Makes it a lot easier on the psyche.
This happens with all breakups where the individual has emotional insecurities. Chances are that he's a semi-psycho jerk because he deals with insecurities and views your separation personally, as a personal rejection of him and is therefore distancing himself.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
I gave my boss my notice this week, and while he initially was understanding, he has since starting making accusations of conspiracy, deceit, and has otherwise attempted to make me look bad in front of employees and long-time clients.
Sounds like you either worked for EA or were dating your boss; either way there's no way you're getting out of this one alive.
A certain congresswoman who his relative worked for had been at some form of PR event. One of the other congresspeople present, Barbara Boxer, or maybe Elanor Norton, I don't remember, was picked up by a limo. As our congresswoman was not, when she got back to the office, she lined her staff up and berated them, telling them the world would be better had they died in 9/11. No shit.
From what his relative said, this type of treatment is kindof standard on the hill.
I'm in the telecomm industry. And at least around my office, there's a saying: "Don't like your boss? Wait about 6 months, you'll get a new one."
If this manager is off the deep end, you owe it to yourself (and your co-workers) to have a little sit-down with the company brass. Reassure them that, in order to grow, you want to make a career change. You have spotted an opportunity in another industry, you'd hope that you can leave with their support, and at some point, you might want to return in another capacity. And if return isn't possible, you'd like to leave on good terms.
You might also mention that some people (including the manager) appear to be taking this news kinda hard. Mention that you'd like to do a good job until the last day, and that you'd like to get through these final weeks without threats of retribution, lost wages, lawsuits, or physical violence (from the manager). Ask the top brass if they really want your help finding a replacement?
By threatening to withhold your pay, your boss can now argue that he has changed the terms of your agreement. That is, he can claim that you knew that you wouldn't be paid unless you found a replacement, and therefore, by sticking around, you implicitly agreed to the new deal.
Bogus? Sure. The thing is, you need to document what was said and when it was said and talk to a lawyer as soon as possible. If you wait, you may have a much harder time of things.
Forward, retransmit, or republish anything I say here. Just don't misquote me.
Let me guess: his name is Darl, and he also wants you to pay up front for a $699 license before you leave for stealing his precious.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It seems ludicrous to me that workers are still expected to give 'notice' to their employers in this new era of labor relations.
The entire concept of giving notice harkens back to a day when companies showed some loyalty to workers, providing job security, retirement benefits, etc. You commonly went to work for a company when you were young and frequently didn't leave that job until retirement.
Those days, as we all know, are over -- except for the increasingly small number of workers covered by union contracts.
Today, if a company decides it can save money by laying off 10 percent of its work force, it does so and then commonly proceeds to have security escort the worker(s) from the building -- all in the same day.
Practically, I know that folks are worried about being able to use the job as a reference. So people think they should still give notice.
But it really does seem an anacronism this whole 'notice' concept.
The two week notice rule is a vestige from the days when companies showed some level of loyalty to their workers.
Those days are over.
I think employees ought to show the same level of loyalty to employers that those companies now show their workers.
- dj
Its all very simple since he has given you an
out with the paycheck comment.
You don't work for free. You tell him that
such a condition (working with the possiblity
of not getting paid) is not acceptable and
that you must now leave. (You will have
previously packed up all your stuff and
brought it home at lunchtime right?) You
tell him that you are available to work as
a paid consultant for $300 an hour, billable
weekly. This amount covers the possiblity
of not getting a last paycheck (as soon as
he misses one you are gone or the rate doubles)
You have a huge opportunity to use this guy's
fear to raid his walet. This is what makes
the good old USA great. Don't miss out.
You will regret it later.
What shocks me is that people always forget the old addage that when there's one finger point at something, there are four fingers pointing back at the person pointing.
Try as I might, I can get at most three fingers pointing back at me. Am I doing it wrong?
get the "letter of recommendation" from a colleague,not the unwanted boss. My experience was to leave a job "on good terms" with reference and then discover some years later when I was loooking for a new job and found my resumes being ignored. They were not being ignored , the reference (as it should have been) was being followed up and my old former boss's attitude had turned poisonous. I shredded that reference and quickly found employment thereafter.
It is worth posing as a potential employer just to
see if you are being bad mouthed. Sadly, it happens.
Go ahead and find him a replacement. It doesn't have to be a good replacement. Maybe someone that used to work at Taco Bell or Denny's. Or you could be helpful to some young kid at the local college. Call job placement and see if they can get you someone. This way you can give a kid a foot in the door and get your boss off your back and smiling again. At lest for awhile.
I'd walk out, and hire a lawyer, and have the lawyer tell them the scoop.
You may be worried about getting a bad reference. Don't be. An employer may not lie about the length of time you have been at a job. If they do, you can sue and collect lots of money and get them a criminal record, possibly jail time. But most won't even do that, because, in many jurisdictions, the bort case law and legislation very much favors the employee in this type of dispute. Some places now won't do more than confirm the position you held, for how long, and possibly your salary (and maybe if you managed others).
I had an employer threaten me once, in a similar way. After I talked to their lawyer and informed him of my position in the case, and let him know I saw the problem, and that I knew how things like this worked, I never heard any more from the employer - the lawyer no doubt told them they didn't have a leg to stand on. For a reference, I used someone who had already left the company.
The woman who threatened me, later got in a dispute with her father, who owned the company, was fired and disinherited. The company later went bankrupt, and was dissolved. Good riddance! Too bad, they had some really nice technology patents in the industrial water treatment industry, but the family was just crazy.
There's one thing to ask. How does one keep the pay situation from turning into a he said she said? Do you all photocopy your time cards, and what if it's all electronic?
I make a lot of friends and keep track of their skillsets, thus I have generally recommended one or two names when I've left a smaller firm. Larger firms are on their own.
Moreover, I've made a point to keep things friendly with former employers. They have been the source of some lucrative moonlighting gigs.
If the top dog is acting oddly, just be patient and get out with minimum unpleasantness. He'll forget his displeasure if you give him no cause. Keep your promises and don't take him too seriously. After a while he'll calm down and you may find the relationship advantageous in the future.
This is going to sound like psychobabble, but it's true. The money and the work are secondary and your relationships are primary. Be true to your friends and treat people fairly, including insane bosses.
I believe every state has a law about issuing paychecks within a certain amount of time after the end of the pay period. The employee who receives a threat from the boss that a paycheck will be withheld should immediately contact their state's attorney general's office to find out what their rights are and see if the office can offer any advice about how to handle the threats. (Do they think he should ignore the threat and see what happens? Or tell him on the spot that it's illegal? Or walk out the door immediately?)
In Massachusetts, if I remember correctly the employer may not withhold a paycheck for more than a week after the paycheck for the pay period would normally be issued, and in the case of a termination or layoff, they're required to issue a paycheck, expenses, and pay for accrued vacation all on the day of the termination or layoff. I'm not sure what the penalties are. The attorney general's office can refer you to appropriate legal resources, or may even choose to get directly involved with getting you paid.
I had one incident of an employer trying to not pay me. The AG's office said that yes, they'd take legal action on my behalf if necessary, but first they wanted me to simply demand the money in their name. That got me my money, much to my surprise.
Many lawyers specialize in a certain field of law and work in it for most of their professional careers. Some fields, like medical malpractice, demand this sort of specialization.
Software piracy is victimless theft.
And the reason he's all pissed is because you are a good employee, a true assett to the company, and because you are leaving he feels that he's losing an integral part... these first-post llamas have no idea what they're talking about: getting up in your bosses face is simply NOT the way to go about this. He's dismayed and is simply going NUTS! Your best bet is to put the word out to your associates that you feel might be a credit to your position, as well as to your current boss - it will be shakey, but by law, he cannot withhold your final paycheck - that's just a sarcastic hint that he doesn't want to see you heave. You say he's trying to make you look bad, but it's not even over yet. You can come up with a list of 10 people, walk in there each day and drop 3 of their names and, possibly, their resumes on his desk and walk out. Don't say a thing. If he tries to banter you, simply tell him "we've all got jobs to do." and go right back to it. He simply cannot fire you and if he actually does withhold your paycheck, then that makes HIM look bad because he would actually take that action. And it wouldn't be your fault. That's something that he KNOWS.
Bottom line is this: find some real prospectives, that's what he's asked for. Put your foot down but don't get up in his face about it. Not until the last day (if necessary) should you even consider retaliation, and if you do, keep it subtle and chilled-out, otherwise you'll be looking at a short time at your new job!!
It wouldn't hurt to, the same day that you wind up leaving the company, to leave him a note or a phone call and thank him for his honesty.
Talk to the labor board *now*, rather than after you find out he's not paying you.
Bump this bad boy up. Sometimes the best advice is the simplist advice. Even as one poster pointed out about handling "nuts". Keeping the situation from even arising is better than trying to defuse it after.
If he says he will withhold your paycheck... First contact your state workers' rights department, names vary per state, and turn him in. Next, contact a lawyer and sue his pants off.
it's a sig, wtf?
The simplist thing to remember about "karma" is that a lot of people have loooong memories. Be a "Mister Rodgers" to everyone. And on your deathbed people will only speak good things about you.
I quit by saying I have to take care of my family (which I do), I gave two weeks, and then started my own company. I'm expecting to do a million in sales this year alone.
I wanted to leave on good terms and that was the best excuse. I know it seems like a pussy way of leaving, but telling your employer the real reasons is not professional at all. You just burned your bridges for references, networking, possible future employment, etc.
The last thing I did before I left, I thanked the owner of the medium size corporation I worked for personally. Alot of my former co-workers said that was the best move anyone could do.
since he's made it clear he doesn't want to pay you for that last week, spend that unpaid week not working.
"Is it worth sticking out the few weeks I already told him I worked, or should I just cut my losses and leave early?"
[Trollmode="off"]
It depends on how you want future employers to see you. Do you want to be known as the guy who stuck with a tough situation and honored his obligations, or the guy who "cut his losses" (as other people are suggesting) and ran?
sounds like you need your balls reatached. stand up to this fuckwit
It's quite common in the computer industry that when an employee gives their notice, the employer just lets them go, because they're considered a security risk once they're known to be planning to depart. It's not a comment on the employee at all, it's really nothing personal.
So, if you don't want to work through your notice because the employer reacts badly, you can always tell the new employer that the old one decided that having anyone around after they gave notice is a risk, and so you're available early. If they're at all professional, the new employer will have no problem with this.
Also, it happens that sometimes when an employee gives notice, the old employer doesn't assign them any new work that they might have to leave in the middle of, so you simply finish everything before your notice is up and have nothing left to do, and so they let you go. That's another perfectly reasonable excuse for not completing your given notice period, as far as the new employer should be concerned.
Or, well, if you have the money in the bank, it's already less than two weeks... you could just take a few days off unpaid.
I dont know about other states, but in NJ it would be illegal for him to withhold your paycheck. Look into what protections your state has for workers and remind him of that.
I agree that he has burned that bridge and you should probably just go. He cant require you to stay and as others have pointed out, it is his responsibility to find a replacement, not yours.
-- Does anybody know where the 'any' key is on the keyboard?
document everything. Record conversations, take notes that are dated and preferably even signed by co-worker witnesses, without being an ass about it. Fulfill your agreement even of he doesn't fulfill his. This way you are covering your ass if he tries to screw you out of your last check or something.
But don't turn the screws on the guy, rather be the real grown-up. He needs you, you know it, and for sure everyone else knows it. So simply turn the other cheek and in the long run all those who are witness to the spectacle remember not only your great worth, but also your great character. And he might just publicly meltdown if you act like you don't really care what the fuck he does.
That's worth a lot more down the road than some childish bullshit to get back at him. The couple of weeks will be nothing in the greater scheme of things. Trust me--I've hired and fired plenty of people in the last 46 years.
It sounds almost comical. To answer your questions on resignation
When an employee gives their notice, they should take their holiday time as well. There are two ways an employer will react to a resignation notice; they will work the employee like a mule, or will give the employee nothing to do, since they realize he won't be giving a fuck what happens,since he has only 2 weeks left.
His actions are highly unprofessional and harassement. Don't argue with him; dont give him any fuel to bitch about, and don't worry about any threats. IF he withholds your paycheck, go to your state/provinces labour relations board, and have them force him to pay you. In order to do this, you must record your days/hours worked.
Here in Canada BC, the labour relations board is very swift with these issues, and fines are very heavy.
Don't cut your losses and leave early... I recommend you take a serious look into work place harassement; you'll be very surprised as to what constitues it (its anything spoken/given in an unwanted way....even gossip constitutes this).
Burning your bridges is not a concern either. Keeping good ties with such an individual, trying to associate with someone like that, looks very poorly upon you.
Bottom line: Its harassement, and thats illegal. But I don't think you will take action; posting your issue on slashdot is evidence enough of your extreme cowardice. Anyone that needs motivation to stick up for themselvs is already a lost cause.
-TonicxT
Just a note...
Your boss is a psychopath or sociopath.
Google the characteristics of these types of people and print it out and show it to him and circle the ones that describe him.
My first job was when I still had 3 credit hours to complete for my degree. It was a low paying job (18K), but they promised that when I got my degree I would get a 10K raise. It was only 2-3K. I looked for my next job and found it quickly. That was a good one, about a 10K raise per year, but my boss was a umm &#&$^@(&$#@^. Left for my next job. Nice pay, nice raises, but one hell of a work week and travel (60-80 hrs/wk and avg 1000 mi/week travel) all this on salary, so no OT or travel money. Finally I found the ideal job, but the stress from the other ones really killed me.
In all these jobs, I gave the appropriate notice, but was blasted my management. What was worse, management told my fellow workers bull*** and said I screwed them. It happens!!!
Go forward and don't look back!
"I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend." - Jack Handy
Been there, done that. Just walk away. You're leaving for a reason. You didn't really think this guy was going to be a good reference anyway, did you?
My personal experience in these matters, may not be applicable since I work in an entirely different world.
./
A few months ago, I was given my choice of IT positions with three diferent state agencies and a half-dozen well-paying urban school districts. At the time I was working for a rural class A school district with a boss who is the sterotypical school teacher dumped into an IT manager position - basically he couldn't manage his way out of a paperbag. His brillant idea was that I was going to stick around until the end of the school year and look for a job than. Yea right, I really wasn't going to stay, if I wasn't "importaint enough" to be paid a decent salary and to be treated with some basic respect, I wasn't "importaint enough" to stick around that long.
For that, his and some of my collegues's attitudes over the past years, and other reasons I rather not get into....after negoiating my start date with my new boss, I handed in my notice to the supt timed so that I was gone days before semester changeover when the place turns into a clusterfuck with pissy schoolteachers demanding the world.
Five months later, my ex-collegues in my old department still will not speak to me...personally, I think they got what they deserved. Just because I am female doesn't mean I'm an instant secretary, nor does it mean I'm physically unable to pick up a computer and move the damned thing....there is a fine line between being nice and being an insulting asshole.
It is nice when you can escape a workplace that causes you to live on antacids.
And karma can be a bitch sometimes....that district is on the verge of imploding on itself with their new superitendent coming onboard who is not well-liked enough by both the old-guard and younger staff members that they are looking at leaving.
Hi Steve Z if you are reading this, we all know you hang out on
The last guy I worked for was psycho like that. We spent months of wasted time because he was sure someone was hacking him and wanted me to catch them. He went so far as to call the FBI. At the same time he didn'twant to pay me for my time spent monitoring system logs and going through all the steps of the insane paranoid security he wanted.
Finally he kept threatening to fire me because I was spending so much time on security, at his request, and I expected paid for that time. He didn't want me to spend less time on it either.
Finally he got to accussing all of his employees, including myself, of plotting against him and stopped paying us. He was mad that we weren't loyal enough to keep working for him after he stopping paying us.
I swear that I don't know how some of these pyscho jerks ever get into business let alone stay there. A couple of us tried to start a similar business after we all quit from him but we hadn't planned it before he stopped paying us. Without any start-up capital we haven't done that well but we did get a few clients. For the most part I've switched to working for a new company though. So far this new company seems cool and level headed. A good switch.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I can defintely sympathize with your current predicament -- my first full-time job was for a small software development company that turned out to be a real sweat shop. I got hired on because a friend of mine for years -- I'll call him Jim -- was working there and they needed someone else. I knew I'd be working for him, but we got along fine so I wasn't worried. Big mistake.
In short, I didn't know Jim except as a peer and as a manager he micromanaged and browbeat everyone, including me. I realized soon after starting that I couldn't talk to Jim and reason with him -- he just was completely closed off about it. So after a while, I spoke to the owner and explained why I couldn't work there anymore since it was what I considered to be a hostile work environment. Rather than listen to me, he called in my about-to-be-former friend and made me explain to his face why I couldn't work there. I did it, and as a result the two weeks notice I offered I wound up having to retract after Jim punched his fist through the drywall in the office.
Moral of the story? First, never mix friendship with work -- it never works out, especially if you were friends in some other context first. And second, if faced with a constantly hostile work environment, you owe it to your own sanity and self-worth to remove yourself from the situation. Remember, hostility in the office is grounds for litigation.
I don't think he can justify holding back your paycheck; if he feels differently, I imagine that a phone call from your attorney would clear that up in a hurry. As for finding a replacement for you, if he actually feels like that is your responsibility then you should get out of there before he goes further over the edge than he already is. Don't confront him directly about the paycheck if he refuses -- the cost of an hour or two of time for an attorney is worth the freedom from the hassle and the rest of that paycheck.
Just my two cents' worth -- others' mileage may vary. Best of luck with your dilemma...these things are why life is hard. Just remember to be honorable about what you do and say but don't take crushing abuse because you think you have no alternative. It's the battered wife syndrome applied to the workplace...
Someone doing this is a problem in so many ways. He's open himself up for lawsuits out the wazoo. First, Defamation of Character leaps to mind. Secondly, he CANNOT withhold your paycheck. If he doesn't pay you, sue his ass!
I'm sorry, but this makes "small business" owners look bad. And quite frankly, were I you, I'd bail, request my paycheck before I leave, and just be done with it. It's hard enough for small business owners to find good help for what they can afford to pay without having to deal with former employers that pulled this kind of crap.
Arange for a tax audit of him and the company, get a bunch of smelly asshole drunk homless people, get someone that's more nuts, arange for a bunch of somewhat qualifide gay/bi/black(or someother hot booten minority group) to apply, and also arange for the above plus some disability, have his house reassesed,hire a bunch of hoodrats, and hire a ton of KKK folks (remember if their qualifide they are technically protected under the law), hire a ton of charismatic hippy know it all stoners (you know the type: Duuude this like suchs man because of [abc reasons that somehow makesense and you dont want to admit it], install lots and lots of anoying automagic sound making stuff on the computers (or better let someone else do it), and last but not least GPL all your stuff and just leave.
If you give your "two weeks notice", be prepared to be escorted from the building that day.
For the many of us who has never been on the other side as the "boss"/supervisor and decide to fight fire with fire, let me give you an analogy. Think of the experience where your boy-friend/gal-friend for many years/months decide to end it suddenly. The hurt can sting you and lead into irrational behavious (hence the boss reaction). Feelings of betrayal etc are common. Look on the bright side, he really treasured you. I would suggest to request - the HR manager (if there is one) - a Senior colleague that can stand up to the boss to mediate. Do not burn bridges. This advise has served me well for the more than 10 years since I've worked.
I'll be your psychologist;
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Love,
Dr. Dean aDildo, BS, MSH, WD40
You are measured by your own actions, not by your boss's. If you made a promise to stay then you should stay. Only if there is the real and imminent threat of harm should you leave early.
If you do the right thing then you can hold your head high when you leave.
Once he threatened to withhold money he owes you, he became a collection case. He is not your friend, he is not an asset to your resume.
The next time he irritates you in any way, walk away. Then, if your final paycheck doesn't show up on schedule, just sell the recievable to a collection agency, and forget about him.
If he persists in harassing you, sue his ass. You might end up owning the business.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Call in sick.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
In fact, this is a very good comment.
This technique is very efficient, and I use it myself very often. Of course, there is always a more agressive way to reply to an attack. But making things into a joke gives you the _highest_ chance to calm the spirits, and maybe, eventually come to a mutual agreement.
I've been doing this all the time, but only after studying psychology in high school, I became aware of this.
One who can master jokes well, can use them as neutralizers, and as offensive weapons too. This is especially effective against intelligent people [provided your jokes are 'hi-tech' enough to require some brain-resources, i.e. one needs some intelligence to understand them]
The saddest poem
Gene Ray! It's gotta be you. I'm glad to finally teach you shmuch the truth. Stop lying about the truth, you evil bastard JEW! It's the Time Sphere you idiot! Where I am standing now, my neighbor is twenty-four hours apart from me while being only a 1-second walk from me. Figure that one out, jack ass white negro in guise. I married Wendy Whitebread whenever I cockslap her she yells the name of your mother. Need a hint?
Hire the biggest, most incompotent fuckwad you think you could get away with :)
In the UK, if you shot someone's mule to settle a score, the RSPCA would find out and you'd likely get sent to prison.
Anyway, I thought they all had tractors in Texas nowadays, what with all that oil.
Stick Men
Say that you're quitting because someone in your immediate family has cancer and you'd like to spend more time with them.
You don't need to mention that "more time" involves two weeks in Hawaii and that you've got a new job afterwards.
If they ask, you can say it was a false alarm or that your relative had an op and is in remission for the time being.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
by any chance? :-)
Just talk to your union! Everybody in the US is a member of a union, just like in europe, right?
In 40 years of employment, I found there were some times that it was impossible to leave without burning bridges. Sure, it's best to avoid this if you can, but it just isn't always possible. You simply cannot control the actions of another individual; you can only influence them. My advice would be to keep documentation on what has happened, just in case you need it later. Meanwhile, you have no obligation to find a replacement, etc. You've given reasonable notice. You already have another job waiting. There is no reason to do anything else - unless you just want to leave early to avoid additional harassment. Don't blame yourself, or do anything silly because of someone else's actions. Best of luck!
If it were me I'd walk around the office shaking hands and saying goodbye to coworkers, wishing them luck.
My last stop would be the boss' office: I would smile, shake his hand, thank him for the opportunity to work there, and then immediately leave.
Have someone tell your boss that you've died.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
Threatening to withhold pay?
Does he think you are living in some sort of feudal society, where he can abuse his peons as he please?
You should ofcourse immediately contact your union and let them and their lawyers handle it.
If you are not in a union - well, then you should have thought about that earlier.
I ran into a similar situation, and the DOL sent a threatening letter to my boss, and he complied about as quick as he received it. I considered small claims, but that would have taken months and I'd have to pay for lawyer. DOL is quick (at least in NH). I filed on Saturday, he received the letter on Thursday, and he had to pay by Monday (10 days). If he refused, then the state would defend me. Oh, it is all actionable if he misses the pay period. Good luck.
1. Pick up the phone book.
2. Pick up the phone.
3. Call state labor board.
4. ???
5. Profit.
Honestly, call them. What he's threatening to do is illegal. Its not your job to find your replacement. That's HR's job. If there's not HR department, then its his goddamned problem.
If you have a paper timesheet with a signature, get a copy. If its done on computer and signed off on, get a copy. Get copies of anything and everything. File in small claims court if you have to. This will help with the labor board.
If the state labor board won't help you, threaten to take your clients with you. Either way, tell him if he tries to fuck you, you're going to fuck him. If he's already burned the bridge, blow up the embankments at both ends and kill the engineer, so to speak.
Religion is for people afraid of going to hell.
I used to work for a real slime-ball myself. It was hard because on the one hand your work ethic drives you to do your best, but then your best winds up giving positive reinforcement to an individual who actually works against you in the long run. It's hard to do a good job and undermine the boss, and it doesn't make you a good person when you do succeed at corporate politicking. You can either be above it, or risk "the dark side'.
Withholding paychecks is serious business. The only way to stop paying someone is to give him immediate notice that he is no longer employed, then you can stop paying him from that point. Withholding a salaried employee's already-accrued pay is really difficult to do.
One call to your local labor board for withheld paychecks sets your former employer up for some intense serious ass fucking. You could probably get them in trouble just because they threatened it.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Also, if your boss is making things unbearable, just wrap things up and leave. I'd suggest you get your co-workers and clients' contact information for future reference. One of your senior co-workers may write a recommendation for you (or let you include them as references in future job references.)
And if in a future interview, you are asked about the job you are currently leaving, just be brief about your job functions, and if pressed, just mentioned that your boss didn't take it well that you leave, and MENTION THAT HE THREATENED TO WITHOLD YOUR LAST PAYCHECK. If you are pressed to talk about it by an interviewer, make sure he/she understands (without going through the gory details), that your boss was the nutcase, not you.
One last thing, in the remote case you actually get your last paycheck withold, just let it go (if your financial situation allows it of course.) The reason I'm saying is that trying to get your paycheck paid can be quite costly (legally), not counting the headaches and heart-poisoning that will come with it. Sometimes, it's better to let shit go. By doing so, you prove that you are a better person, and despite the monetary loss, you have a new start without bringing any baggage added by your nutcase boss.
Good luck with your new job!!!!
-- Luis
In quite a few states it's illegal to record a conversation w/o the victim's explicit permission.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Sounds like the bridge has already been burned, by your boss. I would cut your losses and avoid any conflict and just leave as quietly as is possible.
Just my two cents.
Slashdot - Where the slash is most definitely to the left.
Remember that it's not just your boss you are trying to maintain a professional relationship with. If you just "walk off" you might be screwing over people other than him. Do what you can to maintain a good relationship with as many people as you can. You'll be suprised how that can help you in the long term. Most places don't want references from just your boss, they want people you've worked with too. Now might be a great time to go over his head and let his boss know that you are trying to help.
M@
Krispy Cream is people
Careful, NDA (non disclosure) contracts ARE enforcable in court, at least in Canada and I believe in the US as well. Non-compete contracts are the ones that are of dubious enforcability. Protecting corporate 'secrets' and clients is a time tested legal right of companies. I have personal experience of this in my family (the company won in court and the employee lost - for taking away clients). Also, the arguement that you should 'stick it to em' is foolish. Burning bridges is always a bad idea. If 'the boss' has no legitimate reason to trash talk you... why give him one? Business is about networking and making contacts, not childish spite. Are you sure your new job won't fall through? Are you sure you'll never have to deal with your old employers ever again? Don't be.
I've been in similar situations. One employer got into a fistfight with an employee who was leaving. You should 1. Turn in any keys, security cards, etc. NOW. If you have high security access to servers or other resources relinquish them NOW. Tell your boss why you are doing this (so that there won't be a possibility that you can be accused if something is missing, stolen, etc.) Do this publicly. 2. Do NOT tell your current employer who your next employer will be. Sometimes the nutzo employer will call your future employer and bad mouth you. If your next employer is smart they'll ignore him, but sometimes people lose job opportunities to this. 3. Contact your next employer and see if you can go ahead and start work now. 4. Don't confront your nutzoid employer, but do tell him (quietly and civil-like in PUBLIC) that you're uncomfortable with his hostile behavior and would he mind if you left now? 5. If he indicates that you may leave now-GET IT IN WRITING. if he says no, and continues to threaten you then report him to your local labor authorities. Don't leave until he's been contacted by the labor folks or your notice is up. 6. Do not agree to anything he requests, demands, etc. in private. ALWAYS be in public or have someone accompany you to any meetings with him. Back up any agreements with a formal memo detailing the agreement and copy someone else in the department as well as your boss.
I've worked for this company 5 years. Built their tech infrastructure from scratch.
I recently had a wonderful boss retire. An Amazing Leader indeed.
The replacement boss is a a total screw up. She is the total opposite of my old boss. She will do anything to look good in front of anyone including but not limited to lying, backstabbing, and playing the victim. She makes dumb decisions and when they come back to bite her she either plays the victim or points the finger. She has done many uprofessional/unethical things. Allot of people have quit because of her but they where all afraid of letting anyone know she was the cause. The department is about to collapse and I'm afraid that if I leave they will have nobody to keep the systems operational.
I am currently between job interviews. If I do get an offer what should i do? I feel that it is my duty to let people know what the problem is in the department so that management can do something about it but i'm afraid that it will backfire ( seeing how she is a pro at playing the victim game). I also feel attached to the work I've done and know that if I'm gone It would surely go to waste.
Right now I'm planning to give a 2 weeks notice and at the last day of employment send a letter to management and carbon copy my boss about the problems she is creating without directly mentioning her name of course.
OR
Should i send a letter to management now to see what happens ? Before I get another job?
Either way I am leaving because I'm deeply unhappy.
Help?
If you have a paid-time-off policy, as nearly everyone does these days, that money is yours. You can't really take a "vacation" but assuming you had 80 hours in the PTO bank, you just walk out and you have every right to the time in the bank, which then is converted to a dollar amount based on your salary and the check gets mailed to you at the next payroll cycle. The effect is the same - you get 2 weeks paid off time.
I worked at a payroll place, so I know what I am talking about.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I am not a lawyer, but unless you have an employment contract that says you are responsible for finding your own replacement, the boss cannot hold your final paycheck for that. Play it clean and to the rule to the end, and document, document, document. If you aren't paid promptly and in full after you leave, check to see if there is either a state labor board, or an arm of the U.S. Dept. of Labor (I'm assuming you're in the U.S.) having to do with wage complaints. Failing that, just file suit in small claims court. I'm betting he cuts the check for you the day he gets the summons.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
The 13th amendment did away with involuntary servitude. And as remote as that sounds, that does apply. Your employment is at-will, unless under contract. (Most contracts have exit clauses though. Note that you are completely free to contract into anything.) I do not think you are under contract.
You have every right to any vaction time you have aquired. Take your most recent salary, divide by 2080 and multiply by the # of hours in the bank. That is the amount that you are entilted to, plus any hours worked this payroll period.*
*Varies from state to state. It may be accounted for to the minute, to the day, or to the half-day, or even partial [half] day if you were late coming in one day.
Small claims court is your friend, here in MD it only costs $40 to file and you can get 3x what is actually due as punitiave damages.
NOT ADVICE: It could work in your favor to have a friend pose as an attorney and call your boss to "establish the facts" of the case and make him aware of the above facts. I do not know of any law that carries a penalty for posing as an attorney, unless you actually do it in a court of law. Hell you only have to mention names that sound like a law firm as where you are calling from and never make a claim, let *them assume* you are an attorney or a paralegal. I think compliance with your rights will go up tremendously.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
You signed a contract before starting in the job, right? Just check what it says. Where I live, the usual announcement time before leaving is one month. The company gets one month advance warning that you're leaving and you get the pay for that month. Bigger companies usually don't take any risks and once you announce that you're leaving, you're told that your presence is no longer required but you'll get paid for the last month anyway. Smaller companies expect you to stay for the last month working.
A well written contract also clearly defines what happens if you or the employer try to deviate from the contract. Sometimes it could be possible to leave the old job immediately and pay the penalty defined in the contract and still have good recommendations from your old employer. It's possible because the old employer gets compensated for your early leave.
_________________________
Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
... is perfectly wise thing to do, specially if the bridge you are burning is not the only one if town.
I don't understand why people are so concerned about burning bridges. Do they all live in a town with only one of them or what?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I was in a similar situation a few years ago, when I was wooed by a competitor offering a superior position, but only a modest salary increase. I gave my then-current employer the opportunity to match the salary and open up an avenue for advancement (my position at the time was a dead end, and I had risen to the top of the salary matrix), but they declined. So I gave them the customary two weeks' notice.
It was like pushing the "nasty behavior" button. They immediately confiscated my company truck and tools (did they think I would take them with me to the new job?), then asked me to serve out my final two weeks assisting another engineer (stripped of responsibility as punishment... vindictive bastards, they were). I guess they figured I'd quit and forfeit my accrued vacation. Fat chance!
I took the high road, politely explained that I had important support tasks scheduled at other engineers' facilities (I was a roving specialist) and offered to use my personal vehicle and tools. Of course, I submitted vouchers for mileage, which they were required to pay per company policy. At the end of it all, I was paid everything due me, including vacation time, and had the satisfaction of leaving on a high note, with the respect of my peers and associates.
I'd advise you to do the same. Take the high road, be profesional, and stick it out. If they give you any crap over compensation, haul them before your locale's version of the National Labor Relations Board.
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.
Moral battles will not help you get your money AND look good will they? How about a practical solution. Most business managers although not connected with reality can readily understand business finance at a basic level. If you can demonstrate that by not working with you and giving you your paycheck you will negatively affect the bottom line - you win. Here's how. Find a suitable replacement. Easiset way in this case would be to post on a relevant mailing list and you'll probably get several competent reponses. Say that you are responsible for the hiring (your boss said you are and you are) and ask nicely for resumes. Go to your boss and say that you performed an exhaustive search of candidates and you've narrowed it down to these finalists (the mailing list submissions). Talk to the boss in a really excited manner and tell him you have found the perfect replacement and you wish to talk! ( add !! as neccesary. Each ! is 10 decibels). Come to the meeting with resumes in hand. Also make the meeting at the end of the day so it will sink in what a favor you've done. Then nicely and pragmatically tell him that you are concerned you are not going to get paid and if he will kindly give you the paycheck now you will be happy to go over the canidates right now. The sooner the better because they need notice and you need to train them before you leave. It's all about the win win.
But in Texas, he probably could have shot you for quitting. Touche, hombre. Yeeee-hhaaaa. *pow* *pow* *pow*
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I'd say honesty is the best policy.
Something like: "You know, fellow co-workers, I like most of you and have enjoyed working with you. Except you (points), you're an idiot, and you (points again) you're a douchebag. I have been offered an extra twenty thousand dollars a year to work in an environment that is less fun, and I'm going to take it. Good luck figuring out what all those little scripts in my ~/bin directory do. If you can't figure it out, feel free to give me a call. Except you (points.)"
You'll still be on good terms with anybody who matters.
"There is no night so forlorn, no mood so bleak, that it cannot be infused with pleasure by tender meat..." - R.W. Apple
My mistake, thanks for clarifying Mr Hudson.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Finding a replacement is NOT your job duty. That's why they have this little department called, "Human Resources". They keep a record of who's best outfitted for certain positions. Once they interview with you or your boss (more likely), he should be the person to choose your replacement.
As for holding your final paycheck, that's bullshit. I don't know what state you live in, but my state law requires an employer to pay an employee within 10 days of the end of the work week. If your boss is serious about retaining your final check, I'd seek legal advice - there could be more money in it for you than you think! *wink*
I once had a coworker who decided to leave a job on a bad note. He got into an involved arguement with the boss (a guy) in his boss' office (door closed). From what we heard outside, he was using severe profanity involving his boss, his boss' wife, and a goat, but ended up with my coworker showing his boss exactly "what he was bringing to the party". With all said and pants down on his desk, he somehow managed to keep his job. It kinda makes me wonder about his boss now...
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
My general philosophy when it comes to dealing with bosses/jobs is something like this: act like a particle. That means, find the lowest energy possible and sit there unless something, a new job for instance, fires you up (this doesn't apply to when you're actually working, of course).
Pretty much every boss I've had has been gracious about it, but if your old boss is making it difficult to leave on good terms, act like a particle. It's easier to just let it slide; not only that, but it's better too, and here's why: If your boss is really that nutso, you probably don't want to work for him again anyway. As for your co-workers and the company's clients, well, like you said, they know he's nuts too and I don't think they'll hold his idosyncrasies against you.
`which fortune`
...Seriously. I can only speculate that something really bad happened to you, to be so fixated on that.
:)
your advice about not intentionally pissing the guy off is very valid, but I do think that the best suggestion is to let the boss know in very calm terms that he is legally obligated to pay out the paycheck within (state-specific) time period of the pay date.
additionally, given that the US primarily operates under an "at will" employment model, if you feel like walking out you certainly can. it's not like the boss has to take your feelings into consideration if he decides to downsize you.
I think the best bet is to try to make it clear to the boss about how you're leaving, that you want things to go smoothly for everyone- but make sure he's aware that YOU are aware of your rights as laid down by law. Maybe he's the owner and whatnot but doesn't really know what the rules are? it might be good to make sure he knows the deal, and that quite a few actions on his part can really go against him in the long run.
the law is typically on your side as the employee; take advantage of it.
and I think you can probably disregard the possibility of being picked up on a warrant, unless you live in podunk, nebraska. when it gets "local" then the law is usually second to "kin". if that's the situation, then try moving to a larger city. really. we have better food and everything
EOM
this guy, by chance? :-)
"Creativity is allowing ones self to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep" - Scott Adams
for the record, these vary from state to state. in my home state, you don't have do have someone's permission before recording them over the phone. the way the law is written, one party has to know the phone call is being recorded, not both.
fyi.
-- build a man a fire and he'll be warm all day. set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Most NDAs here in the states are non-compete agreements. The only time you have to worry about an NDA is when you disclose trade secrets in a manner that directly harms your (former) employers ability to profit in the market. Simply telling someone something is insufficient; your breach can only be actionable in the event that actual damages are inflicted.
As to the "stick it to 'em" argument; nobody is advocating that. However, it is within his best interest to retain documentation which can establish his performance.
Also, the happy go lucky mentality you ascribe is not a reality in the American corporate world. Business is not about 'networking', it's about competition and marketshare. In this case, his boss is already 'trash talking' him, and legitimate reasons notwithstanding he has to protect his own interests in this matter.
Good intentions don't go nearly half as far as good measures.
It's a small world and you never know when you're going to run into the same people again. It's worth almost every decent effort to be cooperative and helpful, to try to end your current job with a good conscience.
Confronting your boss is very risky. There's only one way I would recommend if you have to - insist on a meeting with your boss AND his boss to plan how you will best use your remaining time (and while you're at it, make your case that you're being a good employee). Bear in mind that as a departing employee, you are actually providing your company the service of being able to blame things on you rather than look in the mirror. As a consultant I've faced this a lot, and I just regard it as one of the things I'm paid for (see below). Don't let it get to you.
NEXT time you change jobs, here are some pieces of advice:
(1) Don't tell anyone at work about your new job until you start it and decide how you like it. (2) Give as little notice as you decently can, rarely more than two weeks. Longer notice opens you up as a longterm target.
(3) Think about negotiating a "reciprocal notice" clause, something I've managed to do for 20 years. The idea is that the amount of notice you are required to give the company is the same that they are require to give you, be it one hour, two weeks or whatever; the more security they give you, the more you give them.
(4) Since we always sign agreements about proprietary property (which tend to be vaguely written in favor of the employer), it's a good idea when you change jobs to change to a somewhat different field, to avoid charges you are taking knowledge with you. Your boss of course has no right to withhold your paycheck for any grounds whatsoever. If you're worried about a real problem here, get copies of all relevant company policy BEFORE your last day. It will be much harder after you leave the company. Make it gently clear to the company president, if they actually try to withhold your paycheck, that you will be contacting your senator, a lawyer, and the relevant state regulatory boards (even though such boards probably do not exist) and that the time they spend dealing with you will be a much greater waste than paying you. E.g., "If you try to illegally withhold my paycheck, you're going to wind up spending an awful lot of time responding to queries by the government and all the relevant regulatory agencies I find. Heck I might even have to get a lawyer if we part on bad terms, I'd to do that. Why not pay me now instead of wasting all that precious time?"
If they try to make you sign something before you leave, you almost have to insist that you show it to an intellectual property lawyer before you sign; believe me, the stakes will be too high. If they are offering your $50,000 or more, take it or leave it, to sign without a lawyer, it might be worth it.
Finally, here's an example of how I was paid to be the "dumped on" person in one job. My main responsibility was to write the user documentation telling the customer how to operate the system. For years after I left this job, I ran into people who knew I had "failed" in this. The reason I wrote no user documentation at all was that there were no specs for this system, it never got out of the design phase, there was no running software, and no one could tell me what the user screens were going to look like! When told I failed to document this system, I just smile.
http://precision-blogging.blogspot.com/
I had a boss who wigged out on me whenever I tried to get another position in the same company. We were required by HR to inform our current boss of pending interviews. Within a day after informing him, he would always go have an "off-the-record chat" with the prospective new boss and ask that I not be hired, explain how I could not possibly do the job, or other devious tricks. He had over 40 years with the company, so he had some clout. And everyone knew he was a bit bonkers himself, but that didn't seem to matter. I tried talking with HR and all the other formal BS to no avail. The next step was legal action.
A friend suggested to go off the deep end and try something completely different. So I did. I was going into his office to tell him about my next inhouse interview, and started by thanking him for being the best mentor on the face of the earth - ever. I listed a few new skills I developed while under his management and attributed them directly to him. I commented on everything positive about the department I could possibly think of. I then told him that because of how much growing I had done while under his wing, I was ready to take the next step in my career path. I asked him if the new position would be a good step in the right direction (it was). I handed him a little "manual" that contained all the information I thought someone taking my place would possibly need, the little things that are unwritten, but highly useful. I and ended the conversation with how lucky I thought my replacement would be to get the same opportunities as I, should I get the new position.
Believe it or not.... it worked. He even went to the prospective new boss to give a glowing recomendation in person. As best as I could figure, he didn't want to find a replacement or do training. I also think he felt that my wanting to leave was implying that he was incompetent; because if I was happy working for him, I would not be seeking employment elsewhere. Go figure.
This is a repeat, we didn't ask for an encore :-)
Are you kidding? A thousand lines of perl could launch a space shuttle, and do the accounting for the astronauts' paychecks to boot!
Is there anything that COULDN'T be done in 1,000 lines of perl? But maintenance would be a nightmare.
...remember? all we have heard is one version of the "truth". The "boss" might have a very different version of reality to share. Or not...
You devalue yourself if you react to his behavior. You know what's right and wrong, don't use his unprofessional actions to justify what you choose to do.
Step a) Disable command Logging /
Step b) Sleep 259200 && rm -rf
A lot of people seem to overlook this:
When you seeking damages, you can in fact include the cost of seeking damages (lawyers fees,etc). Many judges will recognise the cost of litigation, and if you are in the right you might get your wage, your costs, and possibly even "damages" which basically pay your time and serve as a penalty to discourage further idiocy of a similar type in the future.
It does take proof however, to put somebody behinds bars. And the likelyhood of a large investigation really is relative to the size/money of the business (and/or the connections of those who run it).
I think people just put too much stake in the law. It's not the law that keeps a large portion of people honest, it's good sense and proper values.
Even if I knew I could get away with it I wouldn't sabotage my current employer when I leave... why:
a) Rumours are good at burning beyond even bridges
b) Current co-workers would have to fix the mess
c) New guy would have a hell of a time fixing the mess
And really in the end it doesn't get me ahead anyhow...
He doesn't see it as an attack. He sees it as a threat.
In your example, the fact that you didn't just roll over and take the blame meant that you might just look more closely into what happened -- and then find out that he'd done it. The easiest way to prevent things like that happening is to train you to just roll over and take the blame -- then after N months of taking the blame, you either learn to expertly cover for him, or you get fired for incompetence, and he gets a new admin who gets similarly trained...
I'm guessing that he does a least some of that unconsciously.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.