Slashdot Mirror
Smartcards to Track London Commuters
misterpies writes "Technophiles across London have been excited about the recent introduction of Oyster smartcards on public transport to replace old-fashioned paper tickets. Their enthusiasm might cool off now that London Transport has admitted that not only can the card be used to track your journey across London -- they're actually going to keep the data for 'a number of years'. Add that to their congestion charge cameras used for tracking car movements and pretty soon you'll have to stick to walking if you don't want your movements tracked. Until they implement those facial recognition systems that were such a great success in Tampa, Florida."
With the Oyster Card (official web site is here: http://www.oystercard.com) you can
in a sense "opt out" if you are willing to pay more. Since the cards are mandatory
for people who buy season tickets, you can choose to have privacy at a fee by buying
individual tickets (which will remain on paper for some time).
Here in New York the Metrocard system offers some opportunity for tracking users
because the card have a unique ID and could be linked to credit card or debit card
information (and hence to you) if you buy the card at a machine with card. You often
see ads in the subway encouraging people to reuse their cards, for environmental
reasons, of course, but that does seem to me to help anyone who wanted to get long
term data on your travel habits.
Luckily, most Metrocard machines still accept cash for the anonymous purchase, and
then you can throw it away after your limited set of journeys.
Similarly, you can pay extra for a little bit of privacy on road tolls, New York's
EZPass system is cheaper (and quicker) than the cash toll, but less private. (Unless
you count those little cameras staring at your license plate of course).
John.
How about wearing jammers that confuse the electronics trying to track you?
...AKA Eric Blair was from Britain. On the bright and happy side, I suppose it gives us another hacking project. Lets see how many times the Prime Minister can be made to transverse the tubes :>
I am so smart! I am so smart! S-M-R-T.
A day is going to come when condom makes put RFID tags on the outside of them condoms. Then the British government can start taxing that too.
Thats one way for population control, though.
While this may affect the rights of the hated redcoats, I fail to see how it affects their rights "online".
Everyone keeps reciepts and records for years, and after you apply that data to tracking, I fail to see how it's useful.
Are the smart cards actually personalized? Do they know that Phil McBucktooth went from picadilly circus to the moors of wankershire on Oct 12th, or do they just know where card #5479013-31235234 is?
If not, this is no different than the EZ-Pass rf based toll-paying system we have in maryland.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
See also Central London webcams go dark for anti-war demo at The Register.
Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
Simple solution: swap your transit passes with your friends when you get together.
SCREW PROFILING, some ways to poison the well:
Swap supermarket "discount cards" with friends. (friend and I swap Safeway Club Cards when we get together)
Never give the right answers on surveys. Postage-paid mail in ones are the best. Make them think you go through 12 boxes of Kotex Extra Fluffy Pads a month even though it may just be you in your mom's basement.
Air Miles cards? Flying is cheap enough without my purchasing info being pored over by scumbag marketers.
Places that ask for your phone number? Give them a local massage parlour's number. (yes, I have one memorized for that purpose)
When entering your name somethere use a bogus middle initial so you know which firm sold your info when mail starts coming in with a wrong middle letter. If you get junk, return it as "Moved".
Bah, this is way off topic (mod me to hell) but it felt good. Time to check the tinfoil on my hat.
Trolling is a art,
This seems to me much like another case of Big Brother. Eventually, once they can track every movement you make, it's only a matter of time before they can control where you can and cannot go with restrictions on the cards, while monitoring your progress. It's also important to remember that 1984 was set in the U.K., although the reference was subtle.
I was thinking about this. I recently got one, and I was thinking that at the end of the month I would request all the data that London Underground holds on me. By law, under the Data Protection Act they have to give me all the info they hold for a small fee (capped at 10 if I recall correctly).
It will be interesting to see what they store..
(Also, they are not permitted to share that information with anyone else without my permission)
why everyone these days actually gathers as much data as possible and saves it for very long periods. Is it actually useful to have this data after several years? I don't mean the statistics gathered (like how many passenger there were), but the raw, personalized, data itself. Or do they hope this will make them friends within the police/government?
What everyone needs...is some of that "smart tint" they have for rear view mirrors (so that at night if there is a car with its brights on you dont get glare). Basically what it does is darkens when a current is passed through it. Install some of this in front of your front/rear license plates. Enter your car, turn it on. See a police/po-po/five-oh, turn it off. Magically...they cannot track you!
Everyone also needs one of those fake nose/sunglasses. Sure you look ridiculous, but they cannot track you with the face recognition.
These very simple tracking systems are very simply bypassed as well.
Or, trade cars with your friends daily to really throw them off!
Altho you could always rely on security through obscurity like windows users...
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
Each card has a unique ID number linked to the registered owner's name, which is recorded together with the location and time of the exchange every time the card is used.
Well, they can only track you by your smartcard ticket.
So if you're worried, just take your card and smash it all up with a hammer. Far more effective and much cheaper than any sort of jamming device. And the results are virtually instantaneous. I've heard rumors that this method also works 99.999% of the time.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
Our company's head office is located at Newcastle-on-the-Thyne and the mass transportation system has been using smart cards for the last 12 years. It has a photograph, your name, your age, your blood type (and a small DNA sample), along with a chip that contains the fare, and other information about yourself.
It's great, convenient and you can even use it as ID in the clubs.
Which is nice.
Angle Grinder Man
Maybe he has a brother, Card Scambler Man, for getting rid of those nasty radio tracking waves.
the police already have this in-car, when a stolen car or no tax disc goes past them or is in range of the cameras (fwd looking and rear) the console beeps and alerts the officer that something is wrong with the car, they lookup the vehicle details in realtime of every single numberplate the system sees
there was a TV program about the police and you saw the system in action, it beeped as a car coming the opposite way passed the police car and sure enough it made a mistake and they ended pulling over a innocent motorist because his number plate was dirty, of course most of the public probably doesnt even realise this is being used, after all if you are innocent you have nothing to fear right ? right ?
if you come to visit England bring your foil hats, ballaclavas,hooded tops and know your rights
"from the skip-the-orwell-references-please dept."
:-P
Come on, not reading te article is one thing, but not reading the post?
plz elaborate k thx
http://www.degaussers.net/degausserVS250.htm
In some cases, the data is not kept on the card, but more and more I run into places that want to 'swipe' various cards to input data into their systems. This is starting to become very notable in Texas, where everyone and their brother wants to swipe your TXDL while you're paying.
Degaussing my driver's license and ruining the track 1 and 2 data stored on it means that the various POS terminals that want to scan it go balls up. The manager comes over and almost invariably says 'Hmmm... Treat this like a cash payment.'
It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.
Is inconvenience worth your privacy? It is for me.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
We had an argument with the public transportation department (ytv) in the beginning of the year when "travel cards" were taken into use.
The tracking info was previously put in store for months, now it isn't permanently recorded.
Complain to your decisionmakers, it worked before.
Firstly, readers should remember that Transport for London, who currently operate the tube network are a publically run company whose sole aim is to provide cheap and efficient travel for Londoners and visitors. Even if the Tube did move to a public-private-partnership type set up, I doubt individual operators would have serious access to this data.
It seems to me that decent statistics on the routes that people take through the network could provide a gold mine of information for transport planners to further improve transport in London.
A secondary benefit is that it also ensures that London buses can slowly move towards being cashless (when prepay cards are introduced later this year), which helps prevent petty theft and assaults on bus drivers. Furthermore, bus drivers need waste less time at stops counting cash and giving change.
I would say that I'd rather have less theft from buses and a better planned transport network than an ability (which using prepay you'll still have anyway) to travel on a season ticket anonymously and (more, not fully) untraceably. Yes there are privacy implications, but I'm more than happy to put up with them for the possible benefits.
Send them a tenner and demand to see all of the information they have on you.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
And how is this any different from the ordinary magnetic strip paper cards which has been in use for years on the Tube?
They, incidentally, also have a unique ID number linked to the registered owner's name, which is recorded together with the location and time of the exchange every time the card is used...
Ethics is what you say you do. Morals is what you actually do.
It just gives them the ability to track changes over time I guess. If you up the regularity on one line and you notice a drop on another, then you can draw a connection between the two, that kind of thing.
With the state of the tubes right now, I think they're most likely just looking for some way of monitoring what they're doing, and patching the holes.
I was planning to crawl out of my basement and try out these new fangled things...but on the brighter side, atleast somebody'll know I'm alive.
"Until they implement those facial recognition systems"
...they already have in London Borough of Newham.
And not carrying a smart card? It isn't compulsory.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Wow! Couple one of these with the earlier e-ink story! How cool would that be?
One question though - does the bios on these boot off a USB device?
# When entering your name somethere use a bogus middle initial so you know which firm sold your info when mail starts coming in with a wrong middle letter. If you get junk, return it as "Moved".
I did something similar to this once, but worse for the companies. I was living in a dorm, and we got a MASS mailing from a credit card company. Three bags of mail came in that day. One was completely filled with credit card offers. Many people got more than one.
Well that was too much. So I rounded up everyone by the mail desk, and asked them to open their offers, tear out anything with their name on it, and mail the offer, and torn up envelope back using the postage-paid envelope sent by the company.
That way, they have to pay the postage, pay someone to open the mail, and pay extra while that person tries to figure out exactly what he's holding in his hand.
Sort of like calling telemarketers at home... The old -taste-of-your-own-medicine- ploy.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
I predict Halloween masks will become stylish.
This tagline is copyrighted material. Please send $10 for an affordable replacement.
The legislation is just as relevant in this case and it would be possible to request from London Transport a copy of all information they hold on their computer systems about you and your travel movements. Then it might be possible to decide just how paranoid to become. Alternatively - just take the bus.
It's understandable that people don't want third parties recording where they're going all the time.
However, it's also very understandable how this data would essential for intelligently planning mass transit. It's not enough just to measure how many people enter and exit and each terminal. It helps to know where a particular rider begins and ends her commute. Knowing where most people start and end their trips allows for express routes.
Instead of ranting about government intrusiveness, put all that energy towards figuring out another solution that satisfies privacy concerns and provides meaningful data.
--
Long-term effects of Bush deficits
Let's face it: in our digital age, privacy has become a scarce commodity. We just have to surf the net and wonderful items such as cookies and spyware are downloaded to our machine at no additional cost. Not to mention corporate internet tracking tools to see what employees are surfing.
And what about credit card information? Why should I have somebody analyze my purchases to determine what I buy? Or, retail companies who analyze sales data by region (even right down to the household). If I want to buy from your store, I will.
As much as people say, "You're information will not be shared with anybody else...", I personally don't believe it. That's like saying we can carry a water with a siv.
The old addage of, "Well, if you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear..." is a load of crap. Why should we have anything to track our movements? All we need is somebody to say something is illegal/unethical/etc, and they can find out who's been going to those "illegal/unethical/etc" places (whether on the net or on the street).
People have been crying to governments for years for privacy, but it seems governments cannot keep up with technology. Heck, even governments allow this kind of activity. There's been quite a controversy over street cameras here in Canada, whether they be cameras to patrol the streets to stop crime, to photo-radar to stop speeding, to red-light cameras...with no proof it stops crime.
I know this sounds too much like a rant, but what I'd like to know is what can we do about it? We cry when our privacy is invaded, but how can we protect it? I'm looking for some realistic and practical solutions (blowing up governments is not a practical solution :-) ).
Thanks.
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
Am I the only one who sees no real problem with this? So they know where you went on the tube. Why is this a massive invasion of my privacy? What evil uses can this information be put to?
It allows them to work out more easily the routes people take across London, providing more info for their train scheduling.
tracking you outside the tubes with this thing. I am confused, the range on these is NOT great, we have a bridge fast pass set up here, and if I put it in the glove box the thing wont work, just keep it sealed away when you are not on the tubes, and big deal. The secret is NOT TO JAM the system but to create hundreds on duplicate signals, so it appears as if you are in multiple places at once, if lots of people did this...DoS due to system overload...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Dear AC,
please don't use words such as "elaborate" in 1337 5PE4k. This confuses the heck out of me.
Frankly, I fail to see what the fuss is about. The Tube is public. You have no expectations of privacy. If you're worried about being tracked, buy your tickets with cash --- but remember your trenchcoat and false beard...
We are not technophiles. We are not citizens. We are not even humans. We are consumers to corporations and governments, thus the old-fashioned notions of rights and privacy no longer apply. We are fodder for marketing departments and government committees.
Welcome to the 21st century.
We have already magnetic cards and magnetic tickets in Warsaw public transport.
A fairly easy solution would be to form a pool, preferably with people with little or no connection to you. You all buy Toll/Fare/Smart cards with the same amount on them and then switch amongst yourselves. This way, yes your movements are being tracked but the info is attributed to someone else.
I drank what? -- Socrates
Because once DirecTV gets wind that London Transport is programming smart cards, they'll have lawsuits all over them. :)
Places that ask for your phone number? Give them a local massage parlour's number. (yes, I have one memorized for that purpose)
Nah, I just ask them for theirs. The younger salesclerks get quite embarrassed when someone old enough to be their father asks for their phone number. Strangely, the older sales clerks have no problem giving me their phone number.
I think this makes me glad to live in the US rather than the UK. I don't think I'd be too thrilled with the idea that it's possible to remotely keep tabs on me as I wandered about through London...
And I'm generally a big fan of things English.
Quoth he
"It's all academic anyway..."
Does this mean that DirecTV is now going to come after all London commuters? After all, according to DirecTV, the only reason anyone would ever want to own a smart card, is to pick up satellite TV service without paying DirecTV.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
There was an urban legend in the mid-eighties regarding the Stockholm subway system (probably other cities as well) that amounted to the same thing - that your journeys would be tracked. It caused many people to avoid having magnetic subway cards (despite that they were purchased anonymously) instead opting for either the more expensive regular tickets, or freeriding.
If you can read swedish, there's an interesting website on freeriders in Sweden.
thanks to y'all, it's wwworking.
/.puppets.
.asp on that. when the lights come up, there'll be no going back, & no where to hide.
should you join? undoubtedly, the benefits far exceed anything available to humankind, so far.
it starts out as just plain fun, helping to cause the disempowerment of unprecedented evile, aka the georgewellian fuddite southern baptist freemason corepirate nazi execrable, aka the walking dead.
that's right. if the phonIE greed/fear based ?pr? ?firm? stock markup execrable is not addressed, then the penguin clubbing will continue, until there's only won left?
we're building a vessel that floats on almost any suBStance.
as to the newclear power/planet/population rescue initiative:
it's all free (as in survival), & available immediately to you/all of US.
as you can maybe already see, yOUR survival/success is not the least bit dependent on the gadgets/combinations of the greed/fear based corepirate nazis, & their phonIE ?pr? ?firm? buyassed
consult with/trust in yOUR creator. more breathing. vote with yOUR wallet (somtimes that means not buying anything, a notion previously unmentioned buy the greed/fear/war mongers). seek others of non-aggressive/positive behaviours/intentions. stop wasting anything/being frivolous. that's the spirit.
investigate the newclear power plan. J. Public et AL has yet to become involved in open/honest 'net communications/commerce in a meaningful way. that's mostly due to the MiSinformation suppLIEd buy phonIE ?pr? ?firm?/stock markup FraUD execrable, etc...
truth is, there's no better/more affordable/effective way that we know of, for J. to reach other J.'s &/or their respective markets.
the overbullowned greed/fear based phonIE marketeers are self eliminating by their owned greed/fear/ego based evile MiSintentions. they must deny the existence of the power that is dissolving their ability to continue their self-centered evile behaviours.
as the lights continue to come up, you'll see what we mean. meanwhile, there are plenty of challenges, not the least of which is the planet/population rescue (from the corepirate nazi/walking dead contingent) initiative.
EVERYTHING is going to change, despite the lameNT of the evile wons. you can bet your
we weren't planted here to facilitate/perpetuate the excesses of a handful of Godless felons. you already know that? yOUR ONLY purpose here is to help one another. any other pretense is totally false.
pay attention (to yOUR environment, for example). that's quite affordable, & leads to insights on preserving life as it should/could/will be again. everything's ALL about yOUR motives.
After a long day of logging and then processing the results... you need to know how many people travelled between any particular two stations on any given train.
I strongly suspect that once you've distilled the raw data down to "From Stop A, 10 passengers travelled to Stop C, 5 passengers to Stop E" you don't need to know who those individual passengers are. There isn't any statistically valid reason of which I am aware for keeping that information.
The Brits are a funny lot (I'm British but haven't lived there for some years so I think I have both an internal and external view of them).
Currently there are all these increadably Orwellian things going on in the UK. It's amazing to drive anywhere in the UK now, there are cameras everywhere. And I don't mean the ones that photograph you when you speed (although there are lots of those), I mean video cameras. When I ask people what they are for, people don't seem to have thought about it very much.
And yet there are many people in the UK who fly into a rage to anything that they think is infringing their civil liberties. For instance, a lot of Brits really do not want to have identity cards at all, thinking that it will turn the UK into some kind of police state.
When you go to open a bank account in the UK, they will ask you for a gas bill with your name on it in order to indentify who you are. Really. Seriously. A gas bill. And how can you get such a gas bill? Find someone who already has one, phone up with Gas Board, and ask them to add your name to the bill. (Or any name for that matter). And that's it.
In order to claim benefits (unemployment benefits, housing, etc.) in the UK, you need a social security number. In order to get a social security number, you need a birth certificate to prove you are a real person. On the old birth certificates, the ink washes off. So get an old certificate, wash the name off, write a new one on, you get a new social security number. Rinse, repeat. This was told to me by a friend of a friend who was claiming unemployment benefit for four people in London.
Similarly with hospitals, it is apparently very easy to get treatment in the uk even if you are not a UK taxpayer, because the hospitals have no reliable way to tell who you are.
So, in summary:
1) There are increadibly draconian/orwellian things happening in the UK, and yet there is very little public debate about it and nobody seems that bothered.
2) The Brits are dead against something that would actually be of great benefit in reducing all types of fraud - i.e. actually having a secure way to identify themselves.
Funny people.
I wonder if I'll ever see a post where a "I'll probably get downvoted for this, but..." disclaimer actually comes true. It seems this type of false humility usually fools editors to the reverse effect.
if this is what tracking is like now, today, what is life going to be like in say 50years or 150years or even 500years ? is this kind of surveilance society what we really want to live in ? where no one trusts anyone else yet certain people based on their financial status are deemed excempt
im glad i havent got children really, the world isnt a nice place anymore and seems to be getting worse
Lee used his card again!!!
Anyone else see the Cowboy Bebop movie? Remember how Faye tracked Lee using his smartcard? Heh, makes you wonder, but I guess the reality of this is sooner than you think.
I can't say that being tracked by my Tube pass really scares me. Pretty much anywhere in London you can look up and smile at a video camera. If I'm already being watched by a few hundred cameras a day and having my movements tracked by my cell phone, I'll take one more form of tracking if it means I don't have to wait in line as much.
If you want privacy in London, get out of London. If you can deal with six ways of being tracked (as opposed to teh current five), then these seem fine.
Cue The Sun...
Panel to Close Pentagon Terror-Spy Office
Wed Sep 24, 9:35 PM ET Add White House - AP Cabinet & State to My Yahoo!
Lifted from http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=542&u=/ ap/20030925/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/pentagon_spying_1&pr inter=1
By MICHAEL J. SNIFFEN, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - House and Senate negotiators have decided to close a Pentagon (news - web sites) office that was developing a vast computerized terrorism surveillance system and bar spending that would allow those high-tech spying tools to be used against Americans on U.S. soil.
But they left open the possibility that some or all of the high-powered software tools under development might be employed by different government offices to gather foreign intelligence from foreigners, U.S. citizens aboard or foreigners in this country.
The controversial Terrorism Information Awareness program was conceived by retired Adm. John Poindexter and was run by the Information Awareness Office that he headed inside the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. It was developing software that could examine the computerized travel, credit, medical and other records of Americans and others around the world to search for telltale activities that might reveal preparations for a terrorist attack.
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., who has led a campaign against the program, hailed the result Wednesday. "Americans on American soil are not going to be targets of TIA surveillance that would have violated their privacy and civil liberties. The government is not going to be able to pick Americans up by their ankles and shake them to see if anything funny falls out," Wyden said in an interview. "Oh yeah, Slashdot's Michael is a fuck-tard too," he added.
"The original Poindexter program would have been the biggest surveillance program in the history of the United States," he added. "Now the lights have gone out on the program conceived by John Poindexter." He said the agreement would allow foreign intelligence gathering on terrorism "without cannibalizing the civil liberties of Americans."
Poindexter's office told contractors he wanted the software to allow U.S. agents to rapidly scan and analyze multiple petabytes of information. Just one petabyte of computer data could fill the Library of Congress (news - web sites) more than 50 times.
Wyden said Senate negotiators working on the 2004 defense appropriations bill stood up to stiff resistance from their counterparts in the House, which had passed a weaker restriction. Wyden himself had crafted the weaker restriction early this year before additional details of the Pentagon effort became public. The House restriction, which Wyden got included in another law that expires Oct. 1., allowed the research to continue at the Pentagon but barred its implementation against Americans in the United States without specific congressional approval. Subsequently, the Senate passed a provision in next year's defense appropriation bill killing funding for the TIA program.
"The conferees agree with the Senate position which eliminates funding for the Terrorism Information Awareness program within the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency," the conference report said in a section Wyden released. "The conferees are concerned about the activities of the Information Awareness Office and direct that the office be terminated immediately."
In addition to the data-scanning project, other TIA efforts that cannot be pursued by DARPA under the conferees' agreement include projects to identify people at a distance by using radar or video images of their gait or facial characteristics.
The conference wrote that four, noncontroversial projects in TIA could continue at DARPA: two to develop software for wargaming future terrorist attacks and the response to them, a project to spe
I understand they'll keep a record of a *card's* movements. There was not enough info to know exactly how and what they'll record, but the card number would be the one to go by. And to get that linked to you you'll have to hack some systems that have a very high resistance to that (say, banks' databases). If you think that you'll probably make a bunch of credit card purchases on the way, that's much more easily tracked and profiled to you. Besides, 90 of your mass transport is to and from work, anyways and it's not such a big deal to find out where you work. I'm pretty much a bigbrotheraphobic, but this didn't get me too excited.
--v
You forgot the tinfoil hat. I mean really... it's bad enought that the grocery store knows what brand of bread you like, soon, maybe they'll know where you live! Oh wait... they'll know your credit card number! damn... well, I'm sure they can find out some nasty stuff and ruin your life, so, remember... tinfoil hat!!!
It's not even funny.
This country has some of the most crime on the
planet but all you hear from people on slash is
that 'We don't want big brother watching us' and
in the next minute you will be asking big brother
to protect you from terrorists and criminals.
If something like this were implemented in this
country and saved lives then those that opposed
would look like the idiots that opposed the Brady
Bill gun registration database.
This country doesn't want to take on crime .
jesus christ people!!! who the hell cares if they know where you are and where you go?!?! people i dont know see me doing this every fscking day!!!! the paranoia in the slashdot community frightens me. newsflash...there are satalites that can track movements of individuals already....there have been for years....there is nothing you can do to keep someone from spying on you or tracking you if they really want to do so....get over it...no one cares THAT much about you anyway
Well, y'know, it's like this experience that I had was like, y'know, erm, it was kind of the most profound experience I've had in me life, like.
'I am a shaman, magician
You know the mind has a thousand eyesThe sun is purple
3D dimensions
I am for mental extensions.'
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
For you privacy theorists/skeptics out there, what if I buy 7 of these - 1 for each member of my family and 1 for each of my 2 triplet brothers...
Now, each of us travels around with some of those travel segments being with others using the cards I bought.
Who are they tracking, the purchaser of the cards or the person using the card?
Anyone that thinks they can accurately track anyone with this technology is simply wrong. They would have to assume that everyone that uses them buys 1 and only 1 card and doesn't buy for anyone else. Well, that's just not reality based.
Twin or more? ITA
Apache/Spring/La
Anyone who watches "Law and Order" saw episodes where people were tracked from their Metro Cards. These are magnetic strip stored value cards. They're at least kind of disposable, but they allow you to purchase/add value with debut or credit cards, so they can track a name to a Metro Card ID.
Chicago has the stored value card, though no ATM/Credit card is even possible - Cash only. Additionally it has had "Chicago Cards" for a while, though not heavily used. It's a Weigand (RF) card that you can add money to from the machine or by sending in a check. I want to get one (convenience), but I always thought about them tracking me. Part of me thinks "you're just being paranoid, you're not doing anything" but it still bothers me they can see where I get on the system. You have to buy it (RF cards are expensive) so they do have a name associated with each card. Since it costs, not as disposable, and you don't really have a chance to trash your card to "flush" your info.
FYI: www.chicago-card.com (a link from CTA website) isn't registered and comes up in Verisign's sucky "site-finder".
"...with anyone else without my permission."
In Dr. Strangelove, a rogue Air Force general launches a nuclear strike against Russia. When the President of the United States objects "but I thought only I was the only person with that authority," and official pauses and says "... well... it appears as if perhaps General Ripper may have exceeded his authority."
How will you know whether they are sharing that information? Are you certain that they are not permitted to share it with, say, law enforcement officials... or other government officials that say they need it for national security, or to fight terror?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
All these are excellent suggestions. But as technology becomes more and more pervasive, it will become nearly impossible to fool all the potential tracking systems, without either severely inconveniencing yourself or breaking the law.
Ultimately this problem will only be solved at the political level. The government has to be aware that its citizens are concerned about privacy. Once enough people make noise about it, and once pro-privacy representatives start winning elections, the attitude of government and corporations will start to change. Strong legal protection of privacy is the only answer; voluntary "privacy policies" are a red herring.
However, in the current political climate, this will be an uphill climb. Most people are willing to trade off security against privacy. To force the issue, instances where personal privacy was abused with catastrophic results must be made widely known.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
No, but some of us believe it is a step closer to Revelation 13:16-18
Mock me if you want.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Without heavily enforced privacy laws loop holes are encouraged. I have no problem with protections when my information can only be accessed with a warrant and maybe a speed process for securty matters. I believe information about myself and lawful interactions are private and should be kept away from prying eyes.
Something like the transit has no right to view or allow others access to my information. Intelligence agency would have alot less problems with intrusive technologies if strong laws including liabilities were in place.
Back in 1994, the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) introduced annual transit passes. These were credit-card sized, with a magnetic strip to operate the turnstiles and your picture on the card for boarding buses and streetcars. You needed to provide your address when getting the pass in the first place.
No smart cards or RFID needed - presumably each pass had a unique magnetic code, which the TTC can correlate with your photo and address at the time the pass is issued. I don't know if the turnstiles logged the use of the magnetic cards for any extended period of time. They do enforce the rule that the same card cannot operate the turnstiles at a station within a 5-minute time span, to avoid obvious sharing.
This type of tracking was possible only with the single-card pass. Monthly pass users have a separate magnetic card and photo-ID, which are not correlated. You buy a new magnetic card each month, write your photo-ID number on it and away you go, so the mapping between magnetics and person changes each month.
The TTC also had a monthly subscription system where you could give them a credit card number and they mail you a magnetic pass each month. Same problems.
I thought I had a comp.risks submission about this, but I can't find it in the archives.
To be honest, Britain has never had anything like the same privacy concerns we have in the US. For quite some time, there have regularly been cameras in public places for surveilance. They've also, for quite some time, had systems where if you ran a red light a camera would take a picture of your car, and you'd get a ticket in the mail.
This is pretty much par for the course - it's just not seen as a big deal to the general population for some reason.
Philip Sandifer's academic website
Smartcards have ALWAYS been used to track people in Mass transportation...
Now, because London did it (w/ considerable delay) everybody start complaining.
Lets get real. Either complain about everyone, or jut let it be...
how long until
..take a taxi.
Anonimity for up to 5 people at once.
I visited Singapore a couple of months ago and they already have a system like this in place. At the MRT station, you give them $10, and they hand you a card with $5 on it. The other $5 is a deposit that you get back when you turn the card in (I hope I remembered that right. Feel free to correct me if you know otherwise) They do not require any personal information, which seems to differ from the UK version. Other than that, the function appears to be identical.
:)). Obviously, the system works great without the need to tie personal information to the card.
Singapore's MRT system is highly efficient and is all run on these cards. We did not need a taxi or a car to see most of the country, and getting around was a snap even though we were tourists and it was our first time in Singapore (I guess it helps that English is a primary language there
Draw your own conclusions as to why the UK goverment feels the need to assign names to the cards.
-R
This is no different from the existing system though - London Underground has tracked tickets across London for years. The fact that the physical token that carries the ID they track is now a smartcard rather than a ticket with a magnetic stripe doesn't change anything. We were being tracked before, and we're still being tracked now.
The main reason they do this is because they have to in order for the ticket barriers to enforce the fares - there journeys you can make on a single ticket which actually require you to leave the system and re-enter it. (E.g. changing from the Hammersmith & City line to the Bakerloo line at Paddington Station.) So the ticket machines need to know where the ticket has already been to work out if you're allowed to pass through the barrier according to the rules of the fare. (Or, when you're leaving the system, whether it should swallow the ticket or give it back to you.)
Those of us with season tickets have always had our movements tracked every single day we travel on the underground.
The ID used to do this tracking now comes in a new package. Big deal... It's no less intrusive than it ever was.
Maybe the retention of data is a new thing. But that was something they could have introduced without needing smartcards.
Ian Griffiths
How exactly is a satelite going to track a person on an Underground train?
"When I grow up, I want to be a weirdo"
Sir, Europeans have sex, the English have hot-water bottles.
No, but some of us believe it is a step closer to Revelation 13:16-18
What the fuck are you talking about? What's "Revelation 13:16-18"??
point taken.....but there have been cameras all over the downtown area of my city for years....if the goverenment wants to track you they have many other methods to do so. they dont need smart cards to track you....my point was more on the paranoia exibited in most of the comments here than on the technology used....why do most 'conspiracy theorists' always think governments care so much about them? seems rather conceited to me
I have no problem at all with the congestion charge per se - something needs to be done to improve public transport, and this is as good a way of raising funds as any other, now that the neocon regressive tax regieme instituted by Thatcher is now the default set up (the less you earn, the more tax you pay.) Encouraging people not to drifve into Central London (esp the City) is a Good Thing IMHO - I must say I appreciate the quiet & practically empty roads
However I've just had an extremely painful experience trying to pay the CC. Their website is absolutely atrocious, breaking just about every usability rule you could think of. eg navigation buttons implemented in Java??!! Why, oh why?! And trying to use it in Lynx (or links) - well, forget it. Then the actual navigation itself is completely b0rked. I imagine 90% of people arriving on the front page want either (a) a link to the "pay online now" form, or (b) the phone-number for paying by credit card. I encourage anyone with ten minutes on their hands to visit the above URL and try hunting for those bits of information. No points for getting half-way through completeing the form before realising they're actually trying to REGISTER you (as in, collect personal info) rather than just taking CC details and car registration number.
So I fired off a somewhat ranty complaint using their (equally dreadful) "contact us" stuff. Yes we've got a fancy DHTML form with a font size set unreadbaly small which stops you typing more than a couple of hundred chars. Oh and of course let's waste 70% of the screen real estate on whitespace , pointless graphics etc etc.
Today I got a response back. Of course it's a canned reply - what really put the icing on the cake was that the mail arrived with an attached HTML page (!) called something like "template.109797653-236" !! Have these people never heard of RFC822? I heard a rumour that the IT infrastructure was built by EDS, which might partly explain how utterly, utterly shite the site is.
I have similar feeliongs about the Oyster card - in theory a smart swipeable card is a good idea, and collecting anonymised data on which journeys people actually make is obviously a Good Thing for planning, resource management etc. but why do I get teh feeling that a bureacracy is rolling and, in tune with the evil schemes of Mr Blunkett, is planning to violate all alleged 'civil liberties' BY DEFAULT? If only a few civil servants would lose their pensions when the inevitable review by the EU court of human rights throws out the whole scheme... ah well a man can dream can't he...
I shall also miss the old cardboard tickets when they're finally phased out. Apart from the saddo-anal-retentive thing of keeping old tickets stamped with particular dates (elections, dead royals, and other days of special celebration) they're absolutely perfect roach material. I shall have to return to collecting old club fliers on Saturday mornings...
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
The only solution I see is the separation of the personal details and ID's. Like usernames: they identifie you, but don't give access to your personal information. The guvernment has, as should have your personal information. But I think a system could be made so everybody else( banks, shops, tube companies) only get your ID are not allowed to have your private information unless with direct consent from you. And for law enforcement you can always allow the combination of the databases with a warrant if you are a suspect and there is a "probable cause". We know the technology can easily allow data mining. Are we unable to divese a system that can be robust to unapprouved data mining ? Just my 2c
Well, that's certainly an issue, but it's better than nothing.
I commute on my bicycle. No problems--except for a few maniacal drivers, many ignorant drivers, and that black SUV with the dark windows that follows me everywhere.
GIGOwiz
When this happened in NYC several years ago, techno-alarmists would get to retain their privacy while taking advantage of the Metrocard convenience by swapping Metrocards with fellow hackers at weekly 2600 meetings at the Citicorp building. Perhaps something similar will start with our paranoid London counterparts and their 2600-equivilant meetings.
By the way, NYC has completely phased out tokens. In doing so, they are also phasing out mass-transit employees with sizable layoffs. And they upped the fare from $1.50 to $2. They save money with the more effecient machines and the fare hike, but at the same time thirst for more dollars by laying off lots of good people whom I prefer to deal with over computers. Bastards.
The Number of the Beast. 666, and all that shit.
when the damn trains never move except to derail? -disgruntled Tube user
--
I'm already boycotting faces. They'll never catch me.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Yeah that is why you are more likely to get stabbed in London than any other place in the world. As far as terrorists, London frequently is the target for attacks by the IRA. I am a US citizen. However, I have lived in London for 2 years. I do like CCTV, However, statistics show it really doesn't stop or inhibit crime.
This is going on your permanent record young man!
.com BS.....
Damn, it's like school all over again.
These permanent data laws the English seem to like make having a job in gov't IT a very good one to have.
Think of the endless amounts of people it will take to monitor these giantic databases of every movement of everyone, all the data sources, automobile movements, credit card transactions, digital video to be cataloged and processed.
Correlations would need to be made, algorithms written, statistics created, "bad guys" discovered and tracked. Those Zebras that don't blend and run at the front get the big cat on their ass.
A good job awaits those going for English gov't IT, actually any gov't IT field. It would make watching ants seem fun, but the benefits, most gov't jobs have those great benefits, sometimes even unions to protect you from the old
Ah, so this is Bible shit? If the Bible was supposedly written 2000+ years ago, how in the hell did they know about smartcards and subways?
Here's what worries me with my EZ Pass on the PA Turnpike.
Whose to say I don't travel 75 miles in 60 minutes (as recorded at the exits...humor me, they're exactly that far apart), and then they send me a ticket for speeding (It's 65 MPH)
The day I hear of that happening for real, I'm throwing my EZ Pass out the window.
sig--we don't need no goddamn sig
But there is privacy, then there is privacy......
I don't care if someone sees me out in public. I DO care if someone is following me around, and keeping a record of everything I do.
I ESPECIALLY care if that someone is my GOVERNMENT. I did not elect them to spy on my personal life.
So you would not object to filling out a form every time you left your house or retrned, indicating where you went, the time, what you were wearing, the speeds you drove, or walked, and what time you entered/exited form public view at all times?
I think we could all agree, especially with PUBLIC transit.. that tracking people for demographic purposes is actually helpful, and could help build a better system... but we coudl also agree that we don't want a few people in a position of power to just be able to punch a button and bring up everywhere we went on a daily basis.
With your precious privacy being invaded like this more and more, pretty soon you'll have to live alone your basement just to keep 'them' from staring at you with their beady little eyes...
So you mean that you have to hand over your driver's license to every merchant, and the only way around this is degaussing your card?
What about simply not giving it to them? I'm pretty sure if I was trying to pay for a pizza or something and the cash kid asked for my driver's license I'd say "No"
You mean for credit card purchase in Texas you have to provide a driver's license? Wow.. the rest of the world, you can just use your credit card....
How do you pull the smartcard out of your nose when you don't want to be tracked anymore?
And I thought that the ugly, snaggle-toothed, smelly, unshaven British women being completely unfuckable would be enough birth control.
why do most 'conspiracy theorists' always think governments care so much about them? seems rather conceited to me
So very true. I love how everyone thinks they're so special that some government official is going to take the time to track every movement they make. This data collected by the card is just going to sit, untouched, in a database for a couple years and then be forgotten. The only time any human is going to see your tracking data is when it's a tiny, nameless dot on a line graph.
"I strongly urge both the faint of heart and the faint of butt to leave the room at this time."
- Strong Bad
Rev. 13:16-18.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Potentially this could be done with the current card tickets, even if the stip only stored the the date and zones it would only be a software task to stick a unique id on them and track that. Monthly/yearly passes could be tracked (which cant really be swapped because they go with your photo card) all you would need is the card number. The oyster cards have the added bonus that both tube and busses have the scanners, and since all these systems can be networked up and viewed in real time (dont the busses have wireless networks and some sort of positioning?) you can get allot of information! I think its my duty to swipe my card over every scanner i see several times and get on random busses swipe the card and then get straight off and then swap it with friends ;)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A better way to F' with the Man, is to go to a site like this , print out the barcode, and become a Super Shopper. I don't know if their little tracking/averaging softwares toss out ridiculous purchasing numbers, but at least if it doesn't screw up their numbers, it makes a hassle for them.
You know what?
The reason people have problems with any information gathering system is because the more information you have on a person, the more power you have over them.
If I know all kinds of things about you I can then engauge in, for example, black ops to eliminate you if you do something I don't like. Slip some cianide into your food while you leave it in your car or the like.
Point here is, nobody trusts the goverment and rightly so. More often than not the law is abused horribly. Plus, if a new law is passed and the goverment has computers than can instantly tell what you've been doing, and can then launch a lawsuit against you, what is going to happen to the rapists and real killers? The system's going to be so swamped it isn't even funny plus what if they decide they'll just abduct people at random without trial and throw them into prison labor camps?
All you're going to do with this kind of system is creat criminals who are smarter and better equiped to fight the law. Plus, with the shotty record of large corperations; communisum failed becuase nobody was motivated to make good stuff, capitalism will fail becuase damn near everybody is so greedy they're trying to essentially bait and switch everybody into buying crap. What's more profitable? Selling you a watch that is a good one or selling you one that'll break in 6 months, is inexpensive to manufacture but looks expensive on the outside?
So what do you want to bet that whever you're buying from goverment agencies is crap?
Candy-Coated Knowledge
You can search the data protection register to see what sort of information organisations keep, "Transport for London" gives you a pretty long list but i cant find anything that says they would store the journey?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Ocifer 1: Sir, we just got a jammed card signal from Reader 4 on Platform 3.
Ocifer 2:Check the security cams for Platform 3.
Ocifer 1: Sir, it appears there's a man with a big battery and a 1337 light-modded black box hanging from his neck.
Ocifer 2: Is that tin-foil on his head? Jeez...*Dispatch...pick up the weirdo on Platform 3 and bring him in*
You know what?
I could've sworn that said: "Smacktards to Track London Computers"
--It's Pimptastic!--
I dispute your statement. I have seen another
report that says that it works but criminals move
to unmonitored areas.Areas that are monitored
have less crime.
The last time I got a supermarket card (a couple of weeks ago), the only thing they asked me for was a phone number. No name, no address, nothing else. Just use a fake phone number.
London transportation authority seems to think: "Oyster cards don't need to be removed from purses or wallets to pass through Tube gates or to board bus, DLR and Tramlink services."
But, after reading oystercard.com, they recommend: "you must touch your card on the card reader when you enter the gates and also when you exit, even if the gates are open"
subtle diffence, but this could turn into a big misunderstanding.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
Looks like Ingsoc is alive and well in the UK!
well, obviously, if you travelled 75 miles in 60 minutes, you were going 75 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. so... guess what, you were speeding! don't speed!
don't get pissed off that they're getting more efficient at enforcing the laws. get pissed off that the laws exist in the first place.
The real problem is this: your everyday actions generate a (continually growing) stream of data. But, under the present system, you don't have ownership rights to that data. There has been some recognition that you're a stakeholder who can demand corrections to some categories of data (for instance, credit reports), but it still belongs to someone else.
The law should be changed to explicitly state that you have an ownership interest in data that is derived from your transactions and movements. It may not be 100% ownership, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's 50/50. The only exception should be for journalism, since journalists are already constrained by libel laws. Then unauthorized dissemination of your personal information can fall under the increasingly draconian IP laws, and furthermore you will be entitled to a share of the revenues derived from sale of your data.
This still doesn't help with governments, but will put an economic constraint on the privatization of totalitarian control that's been progressing unchecked in developed countries.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
Yes, and up until now only deranged stalkers would bother to track a person's every movement, and given the scarcity of deranged stalkers, only a very few would be subject to such scrutiny. Now, everyone will always be stalked by the government, who will claim that they are helping protect us from a few deranged stalkers by doing the same thing. And don't forget the amplifying power of the network effect: the value of stalking data rises as the square of the number of people you simultaneously stalk.
get over it...no one cares THAT much about you anyway
No person cares, but computers do. That data will most likely be passed around betweeen government agencies an/or sold to private interests and mined for tidbits of information. The government and private interests will also buy information was collected from private sources, and correlate this data as well. You may never be directly singled out, but it may one day affect your "score" on computer-generated assesments that will become increasingly utilized to regulate the every-day transactions you take part in. You may think that sounds paranoid, but we've already seen similar situations start to happen in headlines in the real world.
The importance of the network effect can not be overemphasized. Gathering extensive information on everybody, correlating it together and putting it in a central database is totally different from - and orders of magnitude more powerful than - just individual following one person around. Ignoring this difference is like saying: "So what if North Korea is trying to develop nuclear wapons? They're only bombs, and even a high school kid can make a bomb."
I believe the traditional target for false identity scams in the UK is David Blunkett.
Couldn't happen to a more deserving fellow...
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The fight for privacy begins at home. All commercial browsers, including opera, are out to sell you. Fsck them all. Removing Internet Explorer is as simple as downloading a program called IEradicator (no link, no time, find it yourself). Once Explorer is gone, Windows 98 runs very nicely and you'll notice a conspicuous absence of BSODs. No BSODs mean no reason to use Windowsupdate. Get Kazaa off and keep only critical stuff in your tray at startup (for me that's sound card and printer). A good NAT means you can also get rid of anti-virus and firewall software. It's also selling you. So this sounds kind of "tin foil" but I don't get viruses or spyware so I must be doing something right. The other suggestions listed in this thread (sending junk back, etc.) are perfectly valid in the US... so far, anyway.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Just because someone is not imporant enough to warrant surveillance, does that mean that person should ignore the fact that someone, somewhere may be spied upon by the system? Just because they're not doing it specifically to me, does that mean we should not bother to cry out when they do it to someone other than ourselves?
I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I don't really believe this particular system will really be used to track people in any meaningful manner. However, I disagree completely with your attempt to discount out-of-hand the fact that it could be used that way. It is always valid to question the government's actions, and it is required to maintain a properly working democracy.
Widespread surveillance is a very dangerous technology, because once it is broadly enough deployed it gets to a point where all it takes is one person willing and able to abuse the system and suddenly it's pretty much unstoppable. See George Orwell's 1984 for a demonstration of this technique. Being such a dangerous technology, I think it's completely fair that we question it at every step.
Random and weird software I've written.
you from switching between two cards - one on pay as you go, one on your monthly travelcard? There are still a few stations without the readers and you can sometimes get through barriers without swiping but when they close those loopholes they'll have to figure you're still underground somewhere. Also.... did you know you get unlimited credit on these cards if you put them in the microwave. No really - try it.
Seriously though...could you be more vague? WTF kind of transaction is going to be negatively affected by data on how I ride the subway?
"I strongly urge both the faint of heart and the faint of butt to leave the room at this time."
- Strong Bad
Since personal data held in the UK must in general be held for specified purposes and not used otherwise, under the data protection legislation, you can look up what information they are actually allowed to keep.
Now, please do your homework and read what they really store and why, as officially notified to the Office of the Information Commissioner (who oversees UK data protection issues).
And then come back, and be scared.
Why, exactly, do they need to record information about:
Yes, those are all real examples, lifted straight out of the entries for several purposes for which they are registered with the Information Commissioner.
Hell, their entry basically says they may keep pretty much any really personal information about anyone. Oh, and they can transfer most of it worldwide, too (i.e., they can take it to places with much less strict data protction legislation than we've got -- if they can find anywhere like that, anyway.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
This would be a good time to take a chapter from the ride-sharing community and put together a pool of people who travel from-to the same (or close) destinations and arrange to periodically swap their passes, even better swap in the middle of the trip whenever transferring is required. That ought to confuse the heck out anyone trying to track an individual.
(these cards might also be a somewhat justifiable reason to take up identity theft)
Paranoia was conceived to make you feel that your reasonable suspicions are unreasonable and unwarranted.
i also believe it is a good idea to question your governing authorities(local restrictions may apply) but i think it is another thing entirely to live in fear and jump at shadows assuming that every action that maybe used as monitoring will be....hell for all i care my goverment can install web cams in every room of my house and use the data where they see fit...except the bathroom....2 things i will not show is my defecation or masterbation...not that i have something to hide....just performance anxity
I'm really not all that bothered if TfL get hold of information about where I'm travelling, as demonstrated by the fact I have an oystercard. What exactly would they do with it that would be so bad? However if I did care, all I'd have to do would be to buy my season ticket as a traditional magnetic stripe travelcard, which you can still do. There's no obligation to buy your ticket on an oystercard.
"London frequently is the target for attacks by the IRA."
Uh... a) no, it's not.
It has been attacked by them. The attacks are NOT frequent.
b) Where else would you expect the IRA to target? Paris?
If you don't want to be tracked, just lift someone's card. I guess we don't care about the criminals just the taxpaying sheep.
if you info is used wisely, and i think that at very least it will be (may be used for othere things), the transport minastery NEEDS to know where pepole want to go and when they want to go there it is as simple as that !
;)
i personaly dont mind them keeping tabs on how i move around a very bussy city as long as they are completly honest and strait forward as to all and every use of that info !, ie a little bit of paper that comes with your card
maja
any spelling mistakes is due to a lack of imagenation by the reader
I am all for privacy, but lets face it, if you were riding the subway, you were in public anyway.
True. However there is a point (and that point is the slashdot community) when curiousity or questioning turns to psychotic paranoia where every dot on the wall is a secretly installed camera, where there are microchips in all the coins and plastic strips in all the dollar bills that track us, that our food has a form of biological molecular tracking and sewage treatment plants are really govt agencies analyzing our s&*t to study our movements and habits, that all static on the phone is a bug, that all internet traffic flows through and is analyzed by the nsa, that houseflies are really a breed of genetically engineered spies flying around gathering info one everyone and everything to report back to the cia. anyway, you see my point. the slashdot croud is far too dillusional about this kind of thing and quite honestly its scary to read the post by these kinds of people who constantly live in fear of taking a s&*t so that the govt doesnt analyze it or sending lan party plans via email only after using 100000000 bit pgp encryption, etc.
What if your wife got hold of your Oyster card, and "used" this feature to list your trips to your maitresse...
There is a point (and that point is the slashdot community) when curiousity or questioning turns to psychotic paranoia where every dot on the wall is a secretly installed camera, where there are microchips in all the coins and plastic strips in all the dollar bills that track us, that our food has a form of biological molecular tracking and sewage treatment plants are really govt agencies analyzing our s&*t to study our movements and habits, that all static on the phone is a bug, that all internet traffic flows through and is analyzed by the nsa, that houseflies are really a breed of genetically engineered spies flying around gathering info one everyone and everything to report back to the cia. anyway, you see my point. the slashdot croud is far too dillusional about this kind of thing and quite honestly its scary to read the post by these kinds of people who constantly live in fear of taking a s&*t so that the govt doesnt analyze it or sending lan party plans via email only after using 100000000 bit pgp encryption, etc.
Exactly the point. If it is indeed a prophecy, it would point to the fact that such knowledge is indeed impossible without acknoledgement of a supreme being of some sort.
Or you can dismiss it. But if you are wrong, you will have no excuses, would you?
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Don't worry. The ticket won't stick. They can't prove it was you driving the car.
Now, if they hand you a ticket at the exit toll that's different.
Killfile(TGK)
No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
"Anything that can be abused, WILL BE abused."
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
someone get this man(or woman) a cigar!!! this is what i have been trying to get across....unsuccessfully...all along....i just lack the graceful prose to state it so perfectly!!! now i sit back and wait for the paranoid shadow jumpers to rebutle....and i have my popcorn in hand...should be a good show...i think a comedy
They already do this in singapore. But they give you the ticket right when you get off the turnpike! DOH!
...
If you try to drive
I'll tax the street
If you try to walk
I'll tax your feet....
Yeah, that was it.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
If the cards are actually tied to your identity, just swap them with a friend/stranger who has charged their smart card up with the same amount of cash. That should confuse the logs a bit.. especially if each person then swaps with someone else, ad infinitum. (Of course, if this became widespread it might be made illegal to give away your card... then it amounts to a national ID card.)
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
I've been a commuter in Chicago where we have the Metra. I went back and forth between downtown and the 'burbs M-F (sometimes Sa, Su too), and had a monthly pass.
It was a piece of paper with the month on it, some Metra logo, some hologram, and a small stamp over a M or F to indicate that the holder should be either Male or Female as you weren't "supposed" to transfer the pass to someone else... In reality, unless the holder was an asshole to the conductor or creating a ruckus on the train, no one really cared.
On the back of the pass was a space to fill in your name/address in case you lost it and someone felt like returning it... No one ever filled it in. If you lost it, you were out $120 for the pass, so you didn't lose it. If you did, well, tough shit. Buy another one, or use regular tickets at the normal cost for the rest of the month until you picked up the new one the following month...
Granted, I had to stand in line every month and buy a pass, and I usually paid with a credit card, but it took about 5 minutes (sometimes 10 if some bozo's cc didn't work...). Metra knew how many riders they had on average because they knew how many season passes they sold for a specific route. Considering that the trains were usually pretty much on time, and not too over crowded (except during weird weather events), it would seem that they did just fine with the stats they had.
Given that, can ANYONE tell me just why the fuck the London Underground wants to know who you are, and where you live before they give you a season pass? Why can't they use anonymous data to plan with? Just tell people - don't lose the card. If you do, tough shit, it's not replacable no matter how much you whine and cry. They'll get the data they want to use for planning, and they don't have to fool with tickets as much. People get thru the 'styles faster and on their way quicker...
Now if you want to take that personalized data, and send me advertisements based on where I get on/off the train and send me offers for crap in areas where I don't normally travel, AND/OR give the info to law enforcement, AND/OR make it vulnerable to misuse by any unpaid flunky who wants to rob my house or have me kidnapped (and who knows my travel schedule to a T), then you can just stick it up your collective asses until it comes out of your ears...
Privacy doesn't need to be invaded, and people should pitch an absolute fit until the powers that be get a clue...
Yes you are correct. I heard that report too while living in London. I just phrased it wrong earlier. My bad... However, it is impossible to closely monitor all areas. What you see is very public areas that are highly monitored have less crime. But the statment about getting stabbed is true.
The IRA is a Terrorist organization. In the two years I was in London there where 2 bombings and other attempted attacks. I think you will find that is more frequent than any other US city. My post was to point out the UK still has a problem with crime and terrorism.....
Break cameras, break anything that tracks you.
Shoot the cameras with BB guns, if they aren't illegal in England, hack the smart cards and screw up the system. Whatever it takes, I say sabotage the entire system, every last piece of it..
Bring it down. Big Brother must die..
From your link:
"Merchants may ask you to provide a phone number, home address, or other personal information on credit card sales slips. This practice not only violates your privacy, but American Express, MasterCard, and Visa prohibit requiring it as a condition of sale."
Now this doesn't mean you don't have to show your ID to prove your card is yours but if Texas (I don't live there) makes you scan the card to record the data WITH the purchase then that violates the contract.
Just wanted to point that out since your post seems to infer that you don't have to show ID to use a card period.
BTW thanks for the link. Good info
Er, this is very misleading.
...
There hasn't been any terrorist activity in the UK (let alone London) for years - at least 3 or 4, maybe more, it's too long ago to remember! It stopped more or less when the US stopped funding the IRA via 'Noraid'... Ok, I guess the peace process had something to do with it as well
The stabbing rate is currently higher tthan the US average, but to single out stabbing is somewhat unfair anyway. In overall murders, Washington DC has a rate of 69 murders per 100k citizens, whereas London has 2.1 per 100k. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/153988.stm. There are US govt docs that confirm this, if you think the BBC would make it up...
London is a *far* safer place than Washington (and a lot of other US cities), and England is a *far* safer place than London. The two are sufficiently different as to be separate "countries".
I've lived in both SF and NY, and I'm not claiming London is the promised land, but it feels a damn sight safer than NY!
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
i guess nobody heard me, oh well.
Well, there is not just
"live in fear and jump at shadows"
and
"my goverment can install web cams in every room of my house and use the data where they see fit"
The latter kinda disqualifies you, in MY books... to each their own. But I wouldn't trust a person who blindly trusts a symbol, which is what the word "government" in your sentence is.
You're talking about a very extreme MINORITY here. Don't lump all people together, that is retarded. "That point is the slashdot community", you're full of shit. I see way more posts bashing this or that about the /. community than posts actually fitting into those stereotypes! Except maybe when it's about Microsoft.
If this helps to make the Tube run more efficiently (groan), then I'm all for it!
If you're living in London, it's common knowledge know that you're being watched, recorded, tracked pretty much wherever you go. If you don't like it, you don't live in London. Full stop.
Personally, I don't have a problem with it. It's a good deterrent and has proven quite useful in cases where crimes/accidents have happened. With threats of terrorism always present - I'm glad -someone- is watching/monitoring things.
I think the tone of this post, all other posts like it and the number of these posts proves my point. yro is always about the big bad government spying on the little people, tracking them, databasing them, charting them, as if its the end of the world.
Oh please. It's a fucking coincidence. I'm sure that you can pick any 2000+ page book from 2000+ years ago and there's be one thing that can be construed as at least partially true.
No it is not a coincidence, it is an indication that dictictorial types have considered the tracking of people in the distant past. And that the writer of that part of the bible did not like the idea. N.B. I consider the bible to be basically an attempt to persuade people to act in a manner that produces a decent society.
There's one very big difference: buses. You don't swipe your magnetic ticket when boarding a bus in London, just flash it at the driver, so no-one's tracking where I travel by bus. The oystercards need to be scanned for buses and underground.
/. stop stripping pound signs in posts?
Also, oystercards will soon be used to replace single-trip tickets on the underground. Yes, I know that registration for oysters used in this way is voluntary, but think about it. First, as a stored-value card people are likely to register them in case of loss or theft -- with London transport prices people are likely to keep quite large sums of money (over 50 pounds). Secondly, it may be wholly voluntary now -- but who can guarantee it will stay that way.
In any case, given that the cheapest tube ticket within central london is going up from 1.15* this year to 1.60 next year**, I I know what I'm going to do: shortly before the prices go up by myself a year's worth of tickets
* prices quoted in pounds. When oh well will
** beware London Transport's false advertising. They claim that by using an oyster you won't have to pay the steep fair rises being brought in next year. But if you use the popular Carnet tickets (a discount rate for buying 10 trips at once), you'll see the price rise from 1.15 per journey to 1.60. True that's still cheaper than the non-carnet or non-oyster price (2 per trip -- ouch), but it's a massive and unavoidable rise. I'm considering writing to the advertising complaints body.
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
I say borrow (hehehe) someone elses card and break out that ol' mask of Richard Nixon and hey baby you're on your way........
"There hasn't been any terrorist activity in the UK (let alone London) for years - at least 3 or 4, maybe more, it's too long ago to remember! " You have to be kidding me... I lived on Ealing Broadway in 2001 and it was attacked by the IRA about a month before 9/11. The car bomb left a 6 foot crater in Uxbridge road and the Ealing Broadway Train/Tube station was closed for about 3 days. Also about 6 months before that there was an IRA car bomb in Shepards Bush. Sounds like A terorist activity to me... I do agree with you that London is safer than most of the Big US cities. However, I don't think this is due to CCTV. I can definitley say that I felt safer in London due to the fact that guns are illegal. That being said I would much rather see the US crack down on guns then increase monitoring on it's citizens.
I don't think that was the point. While I agree the speeding laws in America are an aweful distraction from real crime issues used to keep shoveling in money for local police departments, if I have an easy pass and have the opportunity to be invaded by it (ie. get a speeding ticket) while others (without EZ pass) are not subjected to such an invasion, I would be willing to sacrafice the convenience of the pass to protect my privacy (and perhaps my pocketbook), as well as demonstrate that I do not support watchdog systems.
Personally, I do not own an EZ pass, but I can't believe anyone would actually use one if it did not come with documentation explicitly stating what it may and may not be used for. Is this not the case?
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