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Look here for the official Tivo spec: Tivo model comparison page. There isn't even a mention of the Series3 model. Do they even make the Series3 anymore and where does it fit in the model lineup?

Only on HD or Series3 boxes, though.

(looking depressingly at the Series2 I just bought last year, and strongly thinking about building an HTPC this year)

I couldn't honestly say if it's taken off in the UK much at all, all I know is that I've yet to see a TiVo box in any of the big electronics stores we have and I don't know a single person that owns one, but I know plenty of people with Sky (Pretty much the ONLY people who do satellite TV in the UK) and Virgin (Pretty much the ONLY people who do Cable TV in the UK) boxes that have recording functionality built in (they're both highly original names, too - Sky has their "Sky+" boxes and Virgin has a "V+" box).
Another good comparison, albeit a highly objective one, is the state of the respective websites. The US TiVo site looks all fancy and modern, what you'd expect these days, but the UK version looks...well...lets just say 10 years ago I made a site in FrontPage 97 that looked about as good.

I couldn't honestly say if it's taken off in the UK much at all, all I know is that I've yet to see a TiVo box in any of the big electronics stores we have and I don't know a single person that owns one, but I know plenty of people with Sky (Pretty much the ONLY people who do satellite TV in the UK) and Virgin (Pretty much the ONLY people who do Cable TV in the UK) boxes that have recording functionality built in (they're both highly original names, too - Sky has their "Sky+" boxes and Virgin has a "V+" box).
Another good comparison, albeit a highly objective one, is the state of the respective websites. The US TiVo site looks all fancy and modern, what you'd expect these days, but the UK version looks...well...lets just say 10 years ago I made a site in FrontPage 97 that looked about as good.

Umm.... there are devices you can use to record OTA HDTV..... http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/whichtivoforme/index.html Tivo HD (Also Tivo Series 3, for that matter): "What kind of television service do you have? Antenna Works with antenna and records both SD and HD programs"

Wanna stream a recorded show to a seperate MCE machine, say a laptop over wifi? No Way. Can't Do It. Go buy a Media Extender and you can watch by way of an X-Box.

Tivo has Tivo-To-Go http://www.tivo.com/buytivo/tivogear/software/index.htmlthat does exactly the above scenario, at a LOWER TCO (numbers mildly pulled out of ass, but not a whole lot):

Tivo series 3 device (80gb): $150
Tivo lifetime subscription: $300
Laptop for remote viewing: $500
Tivo-TO-Go applicaiton: free

versus

WIndows MCE enabled machine: $500
MCE channel subsctiption: "free"
Laptop: $500
X-box with media extender: $200-$300 depending on setup
Lack of mobility with x-box/media extender combo: subjective

Windows MCE is more costly, is actually HARDER to set up than the Tivo option, and offers less mobility/functionality.

I've used both systems, and I would choose the Tivo system hands down for DVR functionality and streaming capability. Oh, and itunes is supported by Tivo-to-go. And no, I don't work for them ;-)

Tivo's:
http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304285

Dish's:
http://dish.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304293

The latter includes these tidbits:

The decision, however, will have no effect on our current or future customers because EchoStar's engineers have developed and deployed 'next-generation' DVR software to our customers' DVRs. This improved software is fully operational, has been automatically downloaded to current customers, and does not infringe the Tivo patent at issue in the Federal Circuit's ruling.

"All DISH Network customers can continue to use their DVRs without any interruption or changes to the award-winning DVR features and services provided by DISH Network.

"We intend to appeal the Federal Circuit's ruling to the United States Supreme Court."

I'm not sure that you fully understand just how TiVo interacts with digital cable in these modern times, at least in the US.

Here is some information on the topic. Another article goes on about actual, real-live abuse of the Broadcast Flag on TiVo.

(And if it were an old TiVo with analog NTSC inputs, the Broadcast Flag wouldn't be a factor, anyway.)

From: http://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do

(The fine print)...

TiVo® HD and Series3(TM) HD DVR: Does not support satellite service.

Sorry...

Can I ask what's wrong with something like a TiVo HD?

If all you're interested in is recording a show and watching it later, any HD DVR should work fine.

If you want to watch the shows on your laptop or something like that, with a TiVo HD you can always use TiVoToGo (which is annoyingly well hidden on their website, and doesn't make any mention of HD support - I suppose I'll have to try it later). There's even support for burning to DVD through a computer, although that requires Roxio.

(And, uh, I've been told that if you look long enough on Google, you can find ways to remove the TiVo DRM.)

I haven't really done the math, but I expect that the cost of the monthly fee would easily match the cost of blank DVD-Rs beyond a certain point.

Now it's not the most "Free software" friendly solution in the world, but it does meet the ease-of-use requirement. Use the guide, select the show, hit record, and it will record it later. To an extent it's even easier since you can skip the "insert blank" step and, if you're using season passes, even the "choose channel, hit 'Record'" steps. :)

I'm honestly curious, why wouldn't a TiVo HD (or similar HD DVR, if you can find any) meet your requirements?

Can I ask what's wrong with something like a TiVo HD?

If all you're interested in is recording a show and watching it later, any HD DVR should work fine.

If you want to watch the shows on your laptop or something like that, with a TiVo HD you can always use TiVoToGo (which is annoyingly well hidden on their website, and doesn't make any mention of HD support - I suppose I'll have to try it later). There's even support for burning to DVD through a computer, although that requires Roxio.

(And, uh, I've been told that if you look long enough on Google, you can find ways to remove the TiVo DRM.)

I haven't really done the math, but I expect that the cost of the monthly fee would easily match the cost of blank DVD-Rs beyond a certain point.

Now it's not the most "Free software" friendly solution in the world, but it does meet the ease-of-use requirement. Use the guide, select the show, hit record, and it will record it later. To an extent it's even easier since you can skip the "insert blank" step and, if you're using season passes, even the "choose channel, hit 'Record'" steps. :)

I'm honestly curious, why wouldn't a TiVo HD (or similar HD DVR, if you can find any) meet your requirements?

You should be able to buy a dual tuner HD Tivo for $300 plus the monthly fee...

Scroll down on the LinuxDevices article on the Hava to the screenshot that shows the "remote control".

Look familiar?

Besides, the bigger question is "WHY DOESN'T ANYONE ELSE MAKE A 3RD PARTY BOX?!" Personally, I think there is not currently a market for cable boxes. How much money did TiVO lose last quarter [google.com]? Ah...only $17 million.

TiVo's weakness is that they have a Macintosh-esque approach to the market. Like Mac, they invented a good interface early on, and spent years ramming it down the market's throat, all the while collecting subscription fees and discouraging hacking and reverse-engineering (ever been to a TiVo hacking forum? it's like ooh, don't piss them off.)

Nowadays, there's plenty of DVR's, especially from cable companies. TiVo (probably) is still the best. But TiVo hasn't fundamentally changed in 5 years. Their new HD unit doesn't even have HD inputs. Sad.

So, point is, TiVo is ripe to get displaced by upstart DVR's that have more HD and user-friendly controls. Much like Wintel blew away Mac in the 1990's. But Mac never died, either, and the way that TiVo is copying Mac's playbook (the 30-year payoff) is shameless.

Oh, boo hoo...

Look...The source code for TiVo is there. See: http://dynamic.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

You wanna legislate on how someone builds their product? If you don't like, don't buy a TiVo. Flex that consumer muscle.

This really is a childish world view. Yadda yadda yadda as rhetoric.

I can't think of any software packages in particular that would effect them.

Tivo essentially built their entire own userland.

How do you get TIVO for $5 a month? According to their website it is $15/month. https://www3.tivo.com/store/plans.do I'm asking because my girlfriend pays $20....

I keep hearing about this nebulous "Spirit of the GPL", which in the Tivo case, seems to be nothing more than the FSF intruding where it has no business.

The GPL ver.2 was written by the FSF, so I think they pretty much have a business here.

The intent of the GPL ver.2 is to give end-users the 4 freedoms ... to use for any purpose, to redistribute, to modify, to redistribute changes.
In Tivo's case, the freedom to modify the software is taken away.

You may say that the source code is available ... but what's the point if I can't run it on my Tivo ?
Should I invent my own Tivo clone just to run the modifications I make ? I'm well aware that the FSF wrote the GPL 2. That doesn't give them rights to interfere between a licensor and a licensee. Your contention that the FSF has any business interfering is FALSE.

You are changing the language of the GPL 2 by appending "end" to users. The actual text of the GPL 2 reads: the GNU General Public
License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. You (and the FSF) are reframing the debate by changing the language and covering up this maneuver with "spirit of the GPL" hand waving. If you want to be honest, you need to change the language to read some users and not all users.

Again, your ability to modify the software is fully present. To represent otherwise repeatedly is dishonest. Repetition of a falsehood does not make it true.

You may say that the source code is available ... but what's the point if I can't run it on my Tivo ?
Should I invent my own Tivo clone just to run the modifications I make ?

I don't say it's available. It is available. Again, you are manipulating the debate to cast fear, uncertainty, and doubt on Tivo, rather than forthrightly framing your objections.

Designing and developing your own hardware would be an admirable solution to the question of what to do with modified Tivo source code. You could even create an open source design of your own, which would further technological development in general. Instead, you seem to be arguing that if I hardware designer wants to use open source software, then he should be forced to design hardware to your liking. There is already a mechanism to "force" a manufacturer to design hardware that suits the user. That mechanism is called the free market.

Perhaps you don't trust the concept of the free market. Perhaps you don't trust users ability to choose what is best for themselves. It would then make sense that you would wish to protect the user from himself. I don't know about you, but I love the idea of the FSF protecting me from myself. I'll happily give up my freedoms to the safekeeping of the FSF. We can trust them because they say they're defending my freedom.

nobody is forcing the Linux developers to switch

Well, they're certainly putting a lot of pressure on the developers to switch, including trolling the LKML, engaging in character assassination, making factual misrepresentations about others, shifting definitions to suit today's agenda, etc.

GPL ver.3 respects the 4 freedoms that Free Software licenses must respect

I disagree. GPL 3 carves away some of Freedom 0 that was present in GPL 2, as I've stated multiple times.

Nobody is complaining as much about the Microsoft's Shared Source initiative ... which makes me think ... how many FSF opponents are not corporate shills ?

Please don't try this tactic with me. Do you really believe that anyone who disagrees with the FSF is a corporate shill? And you wonder why I get angry? I get angered by intellectual dishonesty. I don't like it when someone pees on my leg and then tells me it's raining. I'll get to the o

I was just checking out Tivo's $299 HD unit yesterday. It absolutely states that it supports over-the-air antenna-based recording.

You own the software to an extent. You can download the source code for several parts (albeit, not all) of the TiVo system directly from TiVo, including many of their tools (and their modified PowerPC Linux kernel, obviously, to be fully GPL compliant). And there are plenty of user-provided modifications out there to do things like make a TiVo pull from xmltv (so that a TiVo can work in places where TiVo listings are not available) and so on.

Here is a decent list of TiVo hacking resources. Sure, you invalidate your warranty, but if you rip apart something and rebuild it, it's not really rational to expect the company -- who have no way of knowing what you have done, how you have done it, and so on -- to still provide support for it or a replacement.

Tivo's subscrition ($12.95 - $16.95 per month) costs as much as my rental DVR from the cable company.

Tivo's DVR may be better, but I refuse to pay $12.95 per month for tv listings I can find for free on the internet. I could live with $3.00 a month, and I'll bet Tivo could too.

Sorry, Tivo, you have priced yourself out of the market.

"But the cognoscenti enamored with TiVo's whizziness ignore a certain reality. It's easier to get a DVR from your cable company. And most people prefer to rent, not own, a set-top."

Well, look on the bright side. With the never-ending monthly service charges of TiVo, it's just like never actually owning it ...

While Tivo might not offer transering movies and such through their software. pyTivo lets you stream most videos from your PC to your unhacked TiVo

The offer to transfer lifetime service to a Series 2 just expired yesterday.

Now...what in the world makes their Tivo branded netword adapter different than any other one?

No special connector, but perhaps a combination of a particular wireless chipset and maybe hacked firmware on the adapter. They're most likely doing it to ensure consistency and, of course, generate more revenue.

Don't worry though, it'll be hacked...

They might . There have been several instances of "limited time" offers to transfer lifetime service. Last year there was one to transfer to the Series 3, and there's one right now to transfer to the Series 2 dual-tuner.

The TiVo HD is eligible for the multi-service discount, so I'll be all over this.

No, it does not imply that. If I download the source for something I am *not* going to be running it on the hardware I obtained it from, and *nothing* is stopping someone from taking TiVo's offering, stripping out the parts they wish and putting it on a PC. Here is the souce http://dynamic.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

Tivo is locking down hardware not GPL software.

Anything less and it wasn't really free software.

The GPL protects Users and Developers, the V3 says to hell with developers..

At least IIRC this is a new explicit clause in GPLv3 to make it easier for "box-sellers" such as Linksys and TiVO to provide the required source. IMHO it would have been just as easy and not extremely expensive to put just an extra, source CD in the box (I don't own either so I don't know if they actually do this anyway).

In the *DRAFT* GPLv3 version it says at 6.3b:

b) Convey the object code in, or embodied in, a physical product (including a physical distribution medium), accompanied by a written offer, valid for at least three years and valid for as long as you offer spare parts or customer support for that product model, either (1) to give anyone who possesses the object code a copy of the Corresponding Source for all the software in the product that is covered by this License, on a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange, for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source, or (2) to provide access to copy the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge.

Disclaimer: IANAL, and the ink of that piece of the GPLv3 I quoted isn't yet dry I believe.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx ?CID=EFB60828-EE03-4971-958B-E8EA9FDFC592

I couldn't find any for sale after a quick search, I think list price on these units was between $450 and $1200.

Besides, Tivo basic has some annoying limitations -- only 3 days of program guide, no title search, no "season pass" where you can tell it to play all instances or your program regardless of time or channel.

Assuming you're a technical professional, I think I can safely assume your time is worth $30 or more per hour. So you believe you can write and maintain a web scraper in less than two hours per year? This includes coping with the web site changing their formatting occasionally as hordes of scrapers start hitting their site as other MythTV users switch over. Me, I'm expecting it will take more than 2 hours of my time per year to deal with it, so it's a bad tradeoff. I'm prepared to pay $5 a month for reliable data that just works. Now, of course, if your time is worth less than this, perhaps because you enjoy doing it and it's a hobby, or your a student with more free time than money, it might be a good tradeoff for you.

As for $5 a month being what Tivo charges, it's never been that cheap. (Lifetime service could get you that low, but the "lifetime" expired when your Tivo did and it hasn't been available in years.) The cheapest Tivo service is $8.31 per month and that requires that you pay in advance for 3 years. If you're not so keen on coughing that much out up front, the best you're doing is $12.95 per month.

Is $5 too much? Possibly. Ideally we'll have competition and prices will drop to just above the production cost.

Subscription rates are here: http://dynamic.tivo.com/2.0.plans.step.2.asp?box=s eries280hrDTDVR

I doubt you can build an equivalent MythTV box for $279, but perhaps for $399? A quick google search couldn't find any for sale -- does anyone sell preconfigured MythTV boxes?

"Tell me, why on earth should I write and distribute my code with a license that allows Tivo to use it without giving me back anything?"

1. People write code under the BSD license all the time.
2. Tivo WILL give you back any improvements they make - they have no choice. You can get all the Tivo code from them.

Here's the Tivo source. You can download gzipped tarballs of all the source directly from the site, or you can even get a CD for $15.

In compliance with the GPL version 2, we are pleased to provide our modifications to the Linux Kernel, as well as a few new commands, and some tools to get you into the code.

Additionally, if you would like a CD-R of our modifications you may send a written request to:

TiVo Inc. 2160 Gold St. Alviso CA 95002-2160

Attention: Customer Care - GNU/Linux Source Code Request. You will be charged a $15 fee for reproduction, shipping and handling costs, as allowed by the GPL version 2. Make sure that you include a bank certified check for $15.00. Otherwise, you can download the code for free from below:

So you see, if you decide to sell competing hardware, Tivo uses your GPL v2 code, and makes changes to it, you WILL get a copy of all the changes, to use in your product, just as the GPL provides.

The GPL is a software license, not a hardware license. GPL v3 is trying to blur the lines, and it may backfire.

Besides the kernel (which is not a GNU project), see their downloads page.

Well, actually, they have contributed changes: http://www.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

I don't know if those changes are generally useful or not, but they have made them available for others to use. However, I'm referring more to the fact that, because it uses Linux and some (more or less) standard hardware, it is possible for people to write utilities and such that can improve your Tivo's capabilities. Tivo may not approve of these things, but that's the tradeoff for using open source software. Although they may try to use some protection schemes to prevent the software from being wholly replaced, it is still possible to see basically how the whole system runs. And if they go completely proprietary, everyone loses that ability. Seems to me like the GPLv3 is a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Dammit, people. They complied.

If you're complaining about them making modifications to GPL code and not releasing those modifications, it's moot. Shut up.

If you're complaining that they created their own proprietary software on TOP of the GPL'd code that they won't release the source to, that's utterly retarded. Shut up.

If you're complaining that they used GPL code to run a piece of hardware that they designed, then made it so that their hardware design will only run their signed and "blessed" software, then you have the crux of the real argument, but that falls under the same argument whether or not they used their own software platform or Linux.

What we're down to, then, is RMS complaining that he can't rewrite the Xerox printer software to do what he wanted again.

Christ, people.

"In compliance with the GPL version 2, we are pleased to provide our modifications to the Linux Kernel, as well as a few new commands, and some tools to get you into the code."

I still don't understand why people are misunderstanding the whole argument. TiVo *DOES* release their code under the GPL, or at least the parts that they have to (in-house developed DRM doesn't fall under the GPL). The argument isn't about their code release.

REPEAT AFTER ME: The argument isn't about their code release.

The argument is about people bitching that they bought a TiVo, and they can't run whatever they want on it. People would still bitch about that even if it weren't running Linux. The fact that the TiVo is using Linux as an embedded system means that people think they have a right to bitch even LOUDER about how TiVo won't let you do whatever you want with the hardware (which, from TiVo's point, is nowadays primarily because if they want to be allowed to play ball with the content providers, they have to jump through all sorts of hoops. Look up the CableLabs requirements sometime).

Here you go, buddy. Knock yourself out.

With that out of the way, maybe now you can educate yourself about what this argument is actually about, before looking foolish again.

Ok, from gnu.org: "Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software." I'm wondering when these six freedoms were made up. TiVo has been around for a while and this is the first I have heard of them. I doubt these freedoms have been around for more than a few years.

BTW, here is a link to your freedom files. Also, regarding the GPL the agreement is the agreement. I think it is important to keep a careful balance between the GPL and private business. Otherwise private business will just use something else and Linux will stagnate. I also completely agree with what TiVo has done. The fact that they are still around after about 7-years in business was not easy for them to do.

JOhn

You have got to be kidding!!! Solaris???? "Really sucks" doesn't cover how bad that movie is.
Wargames? That isn't even SciFi. I had a computer like that in the early '80s. That was real.

Next you'll tell me that Lost in Space is included in your favorites too.

I'll agree with most of the others ... adding Dune, The 6th Day, Buckaroo Banzai, Contact, Gattaca, Independence Day, Minority Report, and Spaceballs. Favorites are those movies that if they are on during channel surfing, then I must watch or TiVo http://www.tivo.com/4.0.asp.

It's only their changes to the kernel that are GPLed source.

http://www.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

> Are you sure TiVo has never made patches to the kernel that got accepted?

They've made modifications anyway. Get them here.

From the press release:

Customers can purchase television episodes for $1.99, purchase most movies for between $9.99 and $14.99, or rent movies starting at $1.99.
(Emphasis added)

TiVo/Unbox solves two major digital movie distribution problems: displaying on television and dealing with the lack of backups. If the price-point for rentals stays in the $2 range (the supermarket where I rent from is usually $1 or $1.50), then you've actually got something that might actually work for the average family.

Why assume anything, when Tivo spells out exactly what they are doing. Of course, you assumed this information didn't exist, and didn't bother to take the 30 seconds to find it.

Do you mean disclosure such as Tivo's privacy policy, which says what data they will collect, and what they will do with it? So I guess you mean this can happen in Canada, since Tivo has told people all along that they'd be collecting this information.

There is nothing to see here. It took less than 30 seconds to find Tivo's policy on viewing habbits data.